Oral Answers to Questions

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Wednesday 27th April 2022 Commons Chamber

[Rosie Duffield (Canterbury) (Lab)]

4. What recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of resources for women’s services in Northern Ireland.

[Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

10. What recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of resources for women’s services in Northern Ireland.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon Lewis)]

Women in Northern Ireland cannot currently access the same basic healthcare support that is available in the rest of the UK. This is unacceptable. I have committed to return to Parliament directly following the Assembly elections in May and, if necessary, we will make regulations to ensure that services are commissioned.

[Brandon Lewis]

I recognise the hon. Lady’s support for this policy and for women in Northern Ireland. The Department of Health in Northern Ireland must make the services available to women and girls. If it does not, as I have said, I made a commitment to the House on 24 March via a written ministerial statement that I will make regulations to resolve this unacceptable situation that must be fixed for the people and the ladies of Northern Ireland.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s assurances that he will act if necessary after the Queen’s Speech and the elections in Northern Ireland. Does he have a date in mind when women in Northern Ireland will be able to access this essential reproductive healthcare service? When will they actually be able to get the service that this House voted for over two years ago?

[Brandon Lewis]

I am sure that the right hon. Lady recognises that this has primarily been an issue for the Northern Ireland Executive to deliver on. I have been clear: they have not done that, that is not good enough and we need to resolve that issue. We are already recruiting the team from my Department to put the commissioning in place. I will return to the House soon after the May elections if that has not been progressed by the Department of Health to lay the regulations to ensure that these services are provided.

Abortion (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2021

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Monday 26th April 2021 General Committees

[Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Hosie. I thank the Secretary of State and the Minister for bringing forward these regulations to ensure that women in Northern Ireland can access abortion services, as was agreed by this place more than a year ago. We all understand that taking this action is a very significant step—a big step, as I think the Minister said in his opening speech. We have also heard that there have been many attempts over the past year to try to ensure that proper provision is put in place in Northern Ireland so that women can access reproductive healthcare and abortion services, as required by law.

Although abortion is legal in Northern Ireland and women are no longer criminalised, challenges remain regarding the implementation of services as set out in the legal framework. In particular, there is no public information about abortion services from the Department of Health in Northern Ireland. Telemedicine is not permitted in Northern Ireland, despite it being available in England, Wales and Scotland. The existing service is not supported by the Department of Health, and it is patchy and fragile. In fact, the Northern Ireland Department of Health has failed to commission and fund services properly, and has actively blocked attempts to do so. Alongside that, no central funding is available to allow women and girls to access appropriate services. That job is currently being done by the voluntary sector. I would be interested to know what steps the Minister believes should be put in place to ensure that there is proper signposting and help to access services, supported by public funds.

The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission has initiated legal action against the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Executive and the Department of Health in Northern Ireland for failing to commission and fund abortion services in Northern Ireland. The commission believes that the failure of the Northern Ireland Executive and Department to agree to fund and commission these services breaches the European convention on human rights.

The law states that abortion services should be available in Northern Ireland. It is therefore our job at Westminster to ensure that that happens, in line with all our international obligations relating to the human rights of women and girls. I am grateful that the Minister has indicated that he is looking for progress before the summer recess, but I also wonder, alongside my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd and the right hon. Member for Basingstoke, whether he could give a more specific timetable and set out what his intention will be if that progress does not happen.

It is certainly worth reflecting on the effect of the failure to act by politicians and Ministers in Northern Ireland on women and girls in Northern Ireland. Over the past three months, three different local health boards have, for a period, stopped providing abortion services. On 5 October 2020, the Northern Health and Social Care Trust suspended its services because the trust had to transfer staff back into other sexual and reproductive healthcare services, and therefore ceased to take any new referrals for termination services. The service resumed in December. During the break in service, 89 women were denied treatment within the NHS in Northern Ireland. On 5 January 2021, the South Eastern Health and Social Care Trust ceased providing a service, as the only staff member doing the work went on maternity leave and no replacement had been found. That resulted in a further 24 women being denied local NHS treatment. Those women could not be accommodated in other trusts, so the majority used unregulated online providers. Other trusts did not have the resources to pick up the work in either of those two trusts.

Just last week, as has been referred to, the Western Health and Social Care Trust announced that from 5pm on Friday 23 April, it would stop early medical abortion services. The service had been maintained over the past year by just one doctor, working without any support, and that had become unsustainable. That development also highlights the conditions that service providers currently face and underlines the need for the regulations that we are considering.

Amnesty International has described the situation in Northern Ireland as a “postcode lottery”. Added to the picture is the fact that there are currently no routine services for pregnancies beyond 10 weeks, and no local service for women between 10 and 12 weeks’ gestation. That is because those women will need to be seen in hospital and none of the trusts is prepared to provide that service without it being funded by the commissioning process. Clinicians estimate that in excess of 100 women a year fall into that category. Those women are at increased risk when taking pills unsupervised, and are also at increased risk of complications from surgical procedures. Currently, the only option available to them is to travel to England, even during the pandemic, to access abortion services under the Abortion Act 1967.

The ongoing uncertainty and the cancellation of services have made life even more difficult and challenging for women and girls seeking reproductive healthcare and access to abortion in Northern Ireland. The situation for far too many women and girls has resulted in their having to travel from Northern Ireland to England to access those services. We have all heard the horrific stories of women and girls having to travel, and about the emotional impact of being away from family and loved ones at such a difficult time, but that is even more stark and cruel in the middle of a pandemic, as my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd said. I am told that up to five women a week are still travelling to England to seek abortion care. That is during a time of restricted travel and risk of transmitting covid-19—it is unacceptable. Doctors have continually stated that the resultant harm to women will be severe, and clinicians in Northern Ireland have expressed frustration and dismay at the lack of provision of abortion services. Has the Minister made any assessment of how many women in Northern Ireland have had to travel to other parts of the UK to access abortion services during the covid-19 pandemic?

I think it is right to highlight, in the current pandemic, how the failure to act has further impacted on women and girls. It appears that at the outbreak of covid-19, funding was diverted from cancelled services to commission abortion services, and all trusts were able to commission 10-week early medical abortions. However, all the clinics appear to have been in a precarious situation regarding being able to offer care pathways.

Telemedicine is not permitted in Northern Ireland under the Abortion (Northern Ireland) (No. 2) Regulations 2020, despite it now being available in England, Wales and Scotland. Telemedicine has been a vital way of accessing reproductive healthcare for women in England, Scotland and Wales during the pandemic. Its availability has provided women with a safe option that has allowed them to minimise travelling to clinics. That was essential, particularly during the first lockdown, when stay-at-home orders were in place across the whole United Kingdom.

The largest ever study of UK abortion care, by the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, the University of Texas at Austin, MSI Reproductive Choices and the National Unplanned Pregnancy Advisory Service, found that telemedicine is safe, efficient and reduces the waiting period for women accessing abortion services. Professor Dame Lesley Regan, the past president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, said:

“This study proves there is no medical reason not to make the current telemedicine service permanent.”

The fact that telemedicine has not been available in Northern Ireland represents another failure of women and girls by the Northern Ireland Executive and the Northern Ireland Department of Health. Has the Minister made any assessment of the need for telemedicine in Northern Ireland during the covid-19 pandemic, and what steps would he look for to ensure that it is rolled out as part of future abortion care?

I once again thank the Secretary of State and the Minister for all their hard work in taking this action to ensure that the UK’s legal obligations to women and girls are upheld, and for moving towards ensuring the provision of, and access to, abortion services in Northern Ireland, for which this Parliament has already legislated.

--- Later in debate ---

[Miriam Cates]

I absolutely agree. The law is in place, but the question is whether it is the role of the UK Parliament to enforce the commissioning on the Health Ministers. As I will argue, I believe that the right way forward, given that the Northern Ireland Assembly is sitting again, is to repeal the legislation and let abortion return to being a devolved matter.

I believe the most sensible action is to repeal section 9, which is a measure I would gladly support. As has been made clear, however, the Government do not intend to take that course of action and instead will continue to press ahead with the regulations. For obvious reasons, there is plenty of support among Members from different parties. Why are the Government choosing to follow that course? From the perspective of someone who does not support such action, I have no doubt that Ministers would be wary of a backlash if they chose to withdraw the legislation, but I am also prepared to believe that Ministers and many right hon. and hon. Members genuinely hold that this is the morally right thing to do. I want to explain why that is.

There seems to be a view that the presence or absence of an abortion regime is somehow an indicator of attitudes toward women’s equality and that, in not having such a regime in Northern Ireland, the approach that the Government are taking is justified in order to bring Northern Ireland into line with the rest of the United Kingdom. However, I strongly question the belief that any particular abortion regime, liberal or otherwise, is indicative of women’s empowerment and whether women are being discriminated against.

The UK has the second highest abortion rate in western Europe, which sadly means that hundreds of thousands of women each year feel that they have no choice but to have an abortion. I empathise with people who are in a position where they have no choice but to terminate their pregnancy and their opportunity to become a mother. In a country where contraception is free, and where there is now very little social stigma attached to having a baby regardless of whether someone is married, is in a relationship or is single, how is that something to be celebrated?

Whatever our personal views on abortion, we have to ask what the abortion figures really demonstrate. I believe that they demonstrate not the freedom of women in the UK, but the way that we have devalued family life and failed to support parents in their crucial role of raising the next generation. In a country where our tax policy makes families worse off than in many comparable countries, where child benefit is not available for third and subsequent children, and where social policies drive parents into longer and longer hours at work—[Interruption.] I am going to make progress, as I have nearly finished.

We are sending a powerful message about how we value families in Great Britain, and we need to learn from the comparisons between GB and Northern Ireland. Instead of seeking to impose an even more liberal version of what we have in GB, perhaps we should reflect on what Northern Irish communities have to teach us about valuing families.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Miriam Cates]

No, I am going to make progress because I know many other Members want to speak.

In not withdrawing the legislation, Ministers are sending a signal that they believe the right of a woman to choose whether to end her pregnancy trumps all other rights and freedoms at stake here: the right of the unborn child to live, the right of disabled people not to be discriminated against, the right of Northern Irish people to have their deeply held values respected, and the right of women to be protected against coercion and potential abuse. I ask Ministers what moral criteria we have to rank those competing rights. If we see the issue only as a question of rights, we will soon tie ourselves in knots. Using rights to construct a moral framework is deeply problematic, because if we base morality on the protection of the rights of different groups and individuals, we will always reach a point of unresolvable conflict.

However, we do not have to view the debate through the lens of competing rights. We can instead view it through the lens of the social covenant that exists among us and that defines us as individuals, families, communities and nations by the relationships we share and the responsibilities we owe each other. That covenant —that shared identity—is strengthened by trust and cultural diversity. The covenant is weakened when those in power seek to impose their cultural views on those whom they rule, as we have seen so clearly over the past five years.

The regulations are unnecessary, dangerous and overreaching, and they threaten the trust and tolerance on which our Union depends. I urge the Government not to press ahead, but instead to repeal section 9 and restore agency, democracy and dignity to the people of Northern Ireland.

Abortion in Northern Ireland

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Thursday 25th March 2021 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

On this occasion, Parliament stepped in on human rights grounds to ensure that women and girls have equal treatment and equal access to important healthcare services available to women and girls living in other parts of the United Kingdom. We also need to be clear that this is not something we have unilaterally imposed on Northern Ireland. We undertook a public consultation on the regulations in late 2019, which included engagement with, and carefully listening to the views of, the Northern Ireland political parties, medical professionals, women’s groups, civil society, religious organisations, service providers and women with lived experience. It is now crucial that the Department of Health in Northern Ireland takes responsibility for commissioning abortion services in line with the legislative framework that is in place.

[Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab) [V]]

This week, the all-party parliamentary group on sexual and reproductive health, which I co-chair, along with the president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, the president of the Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare and the chair of the Northern Ireland regional FSRH, wrote a letter supporting the Secretary of State’s actions. Clinicians are frustrated by the continued failure to commission abortion services in Northern Ireland and cannot see any legitimate reason for the delay in commissioning services, which are governed by regulations. What message does the Secretary of State want to send today to clinicians in Northern Ireland?

[Brandon Lewis]

I appreciate all the right hon. Lady’s comments. There are two clear messages. First, I thank all those medical professionals for the work they have been endeavouring to deliver; as I say, there has been some provision on the ground since April last year, with around 1,100 women and girls looked after. Secondly, however, we recognise the need to ensure that, while Parliament considers these regulations, we work with the Department of Health in Northern Ireland to commission these services in the way that it should have been doing in the first place, rather than our having to take action here in this Parliament.

Abortion (Northern Ireland) (No. 2) Regulations 2020

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Monday 8th June 2020 General Committees

[Mrs Miller]

I will look carefully at the measure that my right hon. Friend is talking about because although this is a live debate, it should not fog what is a wrong and inappropriate system in Northern Ireland where women in very difficult situations have not been able to access a service which I am afraid his and my constituents would take for granted. That is not right.

Sir David, I will make progress and I am sorry to colleagues who would like to intervene—maybe I should speak a little more before accepting any further interventions. The simple truth that we found when we spoke to people on the ground in Northern Ireland of all views—it is our obligation as a Select Committee to have done that—was that there were some doctors who believed that referring women for an abortion in England was unlawful—fact; and that women were being forced to bring back the remains of their foetuses in their hand luggage because they were not able to be treated more formally for fear of being reported to the police. These are the sorts of things that we found in the Select Committee inquiry—practices that we would not accept in any other part of the United Kingdom. I gently ask DUP Members who are unhappy about this coming into play to look at the detail of those inquiry submissions to understand the reality of what was happening on the ground for too many women.

In the absence of an independent regulator of health in Northern Ireland, can the Minister confirm again—I asked him this question on the Floor of the House—who will monitor the implementation of these new regulations which have to include the expansion of training and medical facilities, because there is no independent regulator to do that? What obligations are there on the Northern Ireland Government to ensure that any future re-evaluation of this policy has to be human rights compliant and has to be compliant with the international obligations of the United Kingdom of which they are part?

The Select Committee recommendations included the very useful recommendation that the General Medical Council should run a campaign to raise awareness about how to complain about a doctor if they fall short on standards expected under the law, particularly with regard to abortion. That would help to increase public confidence and, perhaps, confidence among doctors about what is lawful and what is not lawful, because in our conversations with doctors only a year ago, it was clear there was a huge amount of confusion.

[Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

I am following very carefully what the hon. Lady is saying. Does she agree that there is a role for the royal colleges as well in terms of the training and support that their members need to understand fully the new legislative background and framework that have been put into place? If any future changes to the regulations are not CEDAW compliant, what does she understand would happen? What measures could be taken to deal with that?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am concerned about what the right hon. Gentleman just said. The past president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, Professor Lesley Regan, has made it clear that the safety of women taking tablets at home is not to be disputed. He needs to consider what he said about things in the press, because that is not backed up by scientific or professional evidence.

[Sir John Hayes]

Up until now, we have taken the view as a Parliament that, because abortion is a serious matter, there should be a structure and framework governing where it takes place that maximises the prospect of the safety that the hon. Lady and I want to guarantee. That is why we put it into the hands of medical professionals, and put limits on the places where it can happen. That is why we have a legal framework, and prohibit—indeed, penalise—abortions that take place outside it. My anxiety, like hers, is about guaranteeing safety and security, and I believe that that is done by the existing provisions. We therefore do not need to change them.

I want to reflect on a point that I have touched on briefly already about non-fatal disabilities. I find it deplorable that, in contradiction of all the notions of equality that we rightly promote in the 21st century, a child diagnosed with Down’s syndrome, a cleft lip, a cleft palate or a club foot can continue to be aborted. As the hon. Member for Upper Bann said, that clearly discriminates against disabled people. The last time that abortion regulations in England and Wales were examined in real depth was 1990, before the passing of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 and the Equality Act 2010. That is why, as I said earlier, I am pleased that a Bill is being introduced that will address that inequality. These regulations permit abortion up to birth on the grounds that the unborn child has been diagnosed with Down’s syndrome, a cleft lip, a cleft palate or a club foot in Northern Ireland. Where a child is capable of being born alive in Northern Ireland, this law will permit different treatment of those with disabilities and those without disabilities. That lawful discrimination will continue until the child is born. If this House were to endorse these regulations, we would be endorsing discrimination on the basis of disability. We would be endorsing applying the Equality Act to some and not all. We would effectively be saying that some lives matter less.

In conclusion, I urge Members to reject these regulations for two main reasons: devolution and equality. They are unconstitutional, and may actually be illegal—I have not got time to pursue that at great length, but that is certainly the view of the Attorney General for Northern Ireland; the question of whether they are legal was asked earlier; he certainly thinks that they are not.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stella Creasy]

I am grateful that the right hon. Gentleman appears to have listened to what I said in the House. If we are honest, in debates, it sometimes feels that that is not always the case for those on opposing sides. If he listened to what I said then—and what I say now—it was that devolution did not absolve us of our responsibility. Indeed, the requirements of the European Court of Human Rights cross-cut to Northern Ireland as part of the Good Friday agreement.

The right hon. Gentleman says that we have always devolved this but, I genuinely suggest to him, the absence of legislation on Northern Ireland was in 1967. That was before the 1998 Good Friday agreement, which enshrined the responsibility of this place to uphold the human rights of the people in Northern Ireland, leading to the creation of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, which sought to address this issue but, as we discussed, was not able to do so because of a technicality. Does he want to suggest that there is a clear demarcation? Furthermore, I have not yet heard him advocate that other forms of human rights such as on torture should also be delegated to Northern Ireland. We do not do that; we recognise that some rights are universal and that, collectively, we have a responsibility to uphold them.

My point last year was that for too long, because of the absence of the Assembly, this issue had not been addressed. I ask those who today say that we should not agree to the regulations, if not these regulations, where is the alternative? Now that the Assembly is up and running, it can come up with alternative proposals. As yet, it has not.

The risk is twofold: first, the continuation of the abuse of the human rights of the women of Northern Ireland, whereby they are forced to continue an unwanted pregnancy because there is no safe, legal and local service for them; and, secondly, in the absence of regulation, now that we have repealed sections 58 and 59—I agree with Government Members who made this point—there is a gap, a lacuna, in what services are provided that needs to be addressed.

If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to advocate devolution, he should advocate what CEDAW-compliant regulations the Northern Ireland Assembly should be coming up with, so that we may navigate this terrain of being part of the United Kingdom, of upholding our human rights obligations and of recognising the role of local institutions in identifying how those regulations are provided. He should not be saying simply, “Put it back in the ‘Too Difficult’ box—let’s not go there.”

Having said all that, it is important for us to look at the legislation, at the regulations before us, and I am sure that the Chair wishes me to do so. The regulations implement what polls in Northern Ireland have been telling us for some time: the vast majority of people do not consider this to be a criminal matter but a medical one, requiring medical regulation, which is what the regulations do. That is the view of both the MLAs and the broader public. However, there is common ground to be found: we need to find a medical way of moving forward.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I, too, pay tribute to the work of my hon. Friend last summer to ensure that we are here today to discuss the regulations. Specifically, with the repeal of sections 58 and 59 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 as relating to Northern Ireland, we are left with England and Wales still covered by that Victorian law that could send women to prison for life. I wondered whether she would care to comment. Having repealed those sections, the use of regulation to establish a framework for an abortion law that works for the 2020s and beyond is not beyond the wit of man or woman any more. The Abortion Act 1967 should also now be considered ripe for reform, in line with the reforms that we are seeing in Northern Ireland.

[Stella Creasy]

My hon. Friend knows that she has my full support as she makes the argument that our constituents in Hull and Walthamstow should also be treated with dignity. I am always mindful that abortion is the only medical procedure in which we deny the patient the opportunity to consent. Were we to apply the same rules to having a vasectomy, for example—that somehow two doctors should decide for people whether they were entitled to have such a procedure—I suggest gently that some in Committee would be equally affronted by the denial of their rights to make a choice about their own body. They would not want to be forced to continue something that they did not wish to do.

I am mindful of time and what the Minister has said. I will press him on a number of issues, because it is right that, now we have made this choice to uphold the human rights of women in Northern Ireland, we should ensure that the regulations can be enacted in real time, so that women no longer have to wait. The Minister himself said that the reality is still that people have to travel. There have been thousands of such women, since it was required in 2017 that women in Northern Ireland at least be allowed to come to the NHS in England and Wales, and not be charged despite being UK citizens paying taxes towards the costs of those services. I am conscious that the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings was slightly confused when he talked about home user abortion. In England and Wales people can now take both pills at home. It is important that we recognise that we have made some progress in trusting women to make choices over their own bodies.

If the bodies in Northern Ireland continue to refuse to commission for any gestation at all, as they are doing at the moment, does that count as a breach of the regulations? Will the Minister answer that explicit question for us? It is untenable, those decisions have been taken, and the regulations having been brought in, for women to be required to travel, when that is not an option for many of them. It is not just because of cost. They might be in abusive relationships or have other childcare commitments. That is not the safe, legal and local service that the House overwhelmingly voted to extend to all women in the United Kingdom. Is what I mentioned therefore considered a breach of the CEDAW determination that the previous situation in Northern Ireland was

“violence against women that may amount to torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment”?

Any form of regulation, I suspect, would not find favour with Members from some parties who are present today, because it would allow women to make the choice to have an abortion. However, if the regulation is not commissioned, what does the Minister expect to do to make sure that we are CEDAW-compliant, and what is the timescale for that? How long, essentially, are we to ask women in Northern Ireland to continue to wait before their rights are upheld? The right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings talked about asking for time to regulate. Frankly, the Northern Ireland Assembly now has the time to regulate, but it shows no sign of doing so. Without that, and with the determination not to commission, there are no regulations in force, with the possibility of being in breach.

The regulations say that it should be possible to get an abortion in Northern Ireland under 12 weeks without any grounds. Are we in breach of those regulations at the moment? At the moment, it is possible only for some women under 10 weeks to get access to a service. At 10 weeks and one day they cannot, because the service is not being commissioned. The Minister talked about a good faith defence for medics. Will he clarify what sorts of cases he believes that is intended to safeguard against, so that we can understand better the scenarios he believes possible?

Finally, we talked about the 12-to-24-week provisions and the fact that it is possible to have an abortion in Northern Ireland if doctors say that there is a risk to physical or mental health. That is not a provision available to women in Northern Ireland at the moment. It has not been commissioned. It is a very rare occurrence. Most abortions take place before 10 weeks and the women have made that choice. When abortions happen later it is usually because of horrifically tragic circumstances such as those that Sarah Jane Ewart pointed out, when it is discovered that a child will die at birth. If we do not pass the regulations we are asking women to be in that position, and requiring them to continue and give birth to a baby they know will die. I do not think anyone in the Room would want that to happen, so we must regulate. There must be provisions so that in the horrific circumstance when women who go for a sonogram are told their baby will not live we are with them rather than judging them; offering them support to make the choice they want to make—not to continue the torture—rather than telling them there is no alternative. Will the Minister clarify whether there is an appeals process and, if so, what it might be, for women denied an abortion between 12 and 24 weeks because two doctors refuse it?

I stand with the right hon. Member for Basingstoke who talked about the importance of information. Above all, now that we have reached this point—having had the difficult conversation and heard the voices, and having been given the opportunity to get the legislation right and get the regulations—a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy would be a travesty. People in Northern Ireland deserve respect and to understand what services they are entitled to. Will the Minister clarify information processes? What information will there be for people whose doctors decide that they do not want to take part in the process and how will we make sure that they are not forced by delay in service delivery to wait for a later stage of pregnancy? Three years ago, we made a promise to the women of Northern Ireland when we first started this conversation and first looked at their right to be able to travel here that we were not done. If we are honest, we are not done yet with these regulations. We are much further down that road, but there is still much more work to be done.

I know the Minister recognises that and wants to see this through. It is important today that we vote for these regulations and get further along that road, but it is also important that we do not give up on ensuring that what we talk about in this place—those rights, that equality of being able to manage our own bodies and our own choices—is extended to all our citizens.

I thank the Minister for the work he has done. I will be voting for these regulations, and I recommit myself to working with those woman and men on the ground in Northern Ireland, to help to ensure that their voices continue to be heard in this process, until we are all truly, equally able to exercise our own rights. Surely that is the best of human rights, and that is the best of democracy.

Oral Answers to Questions

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Wednesday 18th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I am happy to be very clear about this. We are determined to deliver on the agreements not only in the protocol, but in the Good Friday/Belfast agreement, so that we ensure there is no border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, and there will be no border between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. There will be no hard border in the Irish sea.

[Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

4. If he will make an assessment of the effect of the collapse of Flybe on the ability of women in Northern Ireland to access abortion services in England.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)]

The Government have been engaging on this issue with the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, which is contracted to provide booking services for women travelling to England to access abortion services. Flights have been rebooked for anyone affected by the collapse of Flybe to ensure access for women and girls. The Government continue to fund all the costs of the procedure, including travel and, where needed, accommodation. We are also working closely with the devolved Administrations, the Department for Transport and airlines to identify opportunities and to encourage them to act quickly to fill routes that are vital for local communities and business. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State mentioned, a number of routes have already been taken up.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I thank the Minister for that answer but, of course, abortion was decriminalised in October 2019 and we now see the lost opportunity of this medical procedure not being provided over the last six months in Northern Ireland. The failure to do that means that we are now in a much more difficult position with covid-19. Has the Minister given any more thought to what other action he could take to ensure that services are available to women in Northern Ireland?

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Section 3(2)

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Monday 9th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Julian Smith]

I accept that these are highly emotive and sensitive issues. I accept that the House, having spoken, needs, wants and demands that we act. The consultation that my Department will put in place will be extremely sensitive to many of the issues that have been outlined tonight, but I return to the fact that I will do everything that I can in my power to get the Executive up and running because I strongly believe that for this issue and for many other issues that I have discussed tonight, getting Stormont up and running is the best way to address these matters.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

I am very interested in the consultation that will take place. Will the Secretary of State confirm that organisations such as the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, the Royal College of Midwives, the Royal College of General Practitioners and the Royal College of Nursing will be consulted as part of those deliberations?

[Julian Smith]

They will be, but again I want and hope that we can get this issue addressed within Northern Ireland and by Northern Ireland political leaders.

I welcome the opportunity to open these issues up for debate in the House. The range of issues, largely on devolved matters, demonstrates how important it is to restore the Executive. That is why I will strive, over the coming days and weeks, to encourage the political parties to go back into the Executive and to start working for the people of Northern Ireland again as soon as possible.

Northern Ireland

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Thursday 5th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Julian Smith]

Yes, I can.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

If we prorogue and then move to Dissolution and Stormont is still not sitting, what will happen to the provisions of the Northern Irish Bill that repeal sections 58 and59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 after 22 October?

[Julian Smith]

Those provisions remain.

Points of Order

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Thursday 18th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. It concerns the decision that the House has now taken to decriminalise abortion in Northern Ireland by repealing sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861. This means that the abortion law in Northern Ireland will be more liberal than in England and Wales. Women will no longer be subject to criminal sanction in Northern Ireland, but, of course, the law has not been repealed for women in England and Wales, who remain subject to the criminal law. If, for example, they buy abortion tablets on the internet, they can still face prosecution. I wonder, Mr Speaker, whether the Government have given any indication that they will make a statement to the House next week to ensure that women in England and Wales are treated as fairly now as we hope they will be in Northern Ireland.

[Mr Speaker]

I have not yet received any such indication, but, as I indicated in response to the previous point of order, there is time for these matters to be aired. There could be a Government statement, but in the absence thereof, there are other ways in which to secure parliamentary time. I think I would command the assent of the House if I said of the hon. Lady that the word “indefatigable” could have been invented to describe her campaigning zeal. I am very confident that if she wishes to raise the matter in the Chamber next week, she will be able to do so.

If there are no further points of order—and I thank colleagues for their interest, attention and patience—we will now come to the Back-Bench motion on the Bishop of Truro’s report on the persecution of Christians overseas. We are already having to start this debate later than any of us would have liked. The occupant of the Chair who succeeds me will do his best to protect the time for it, and it would be appreciated if colleagues who wish to conduct conversations on other matters would leave the Chamber quickly and quietly, so that those who wish to get on with this important debate can do so unimpeded and with appropriate attention.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Diana Johnson Excerpts

3rd reading: House of Commons & Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Tuesday 9th July 2019 Commons Chamber

These amendments and new clauses are not required under human rights jurisprudence and could lead to an unhelpful precedent. They tear up the devolution settlement and are a naked power grab that must be rejected.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

I rise to speak to amendment 9, which has cross-party support. I was very pleased that the Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee, the right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller), spoke in support of my amendment. The amendment would add to clause 3 a new subsection to place a duty on the Secretary of State to report on the legal framework on abortion in Northern Ireland, with an analysis of how the framework can be amended by this Parliament during the period when there is no Executive, subject to a sunset clause, to respect the devolution settlement. That would be done to comply with the human rights obligations of the United Kingdom.

We have had plenty of debate about our human rights responsibilities, and I know that many Members of this House are very concerned about the breaches of women’s human rights in Northern Ireland in relation to abortion. As we have heard, the law is still based on the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, which punishes a woman who terminates her pregnancy or anyone who assists her with up to life imprisonment. Members will also be aware that the Abortion Act 1967 has never applied in Northern Ireland.

The law on abortion in Northern Ireland is one of the most restrictive and harshest in the world—abortion in cases of rape, incest and fatal foetal abnormality is not allowed in Northern Ireland. We know that prosecutions take place. We have heard about the mother who bought tablets off the internet for her daughter, who was in an abusive relationship.

[Fiona Bruce]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Diana Johnson]

I am going to carry on.

We have heard about the woman who had a self-induced abortion because she could not afford to travel to England or Scotland. We have also heard of the 1,000 women who travel to access abortion services in England and Wales.

Following the referendum in the Republic of Ireland, a very stark light is now shining on this archaic law in Northern Ireland. With no Assembly sitting for over two years, we have seen no progress in dealing with this situation, but we have seen the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women finding grave and systematic breaches of women’s human rights in its inquiry into abortion in Northern Ireland in February 2018. The Women and Equalities Committee said:

“The UK Government needs to set out a clear framework and timeline to address the breaches of women’s rights in Northern Ireland under the CEDAW Convention that have been identified by the UN Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women if there is no government in Northern Ireland to take this action.”

In July 2019, the UN Committee against Torture said:

“The Committee recommends that the State party ensure that all women and girls in the State party, including in Northern Ireland, have effective access to the means of terminating a pregnancy when not doing so is likely to result in severe pain and suffering, such as when the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest, when the life or health of the pregnant person is at risk and in cases of fatal foetal impairment.”

Some Members have tried to disparage the committees of the United Nations, but the United Kingdom Supreme Court identified a breach of human rights in relation to cases of fatal foetal abnormality, rape and incest—it simply did not make a declaration of incompatibility because the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission did not have locus, due to a drafting problem with the legislation that needs to be rectified. The Women and Equalities Committee has made it clear that it believes a very strong case is made by the highest court in the land.

There is a case currently making its way through the courts, and it is very likely that there will be a finding of incompatibility in the next few months. I want to pay tribute to that exceptional, strong, brave woman from Northern Ireland, Sarah Ewart, who, supported by Amnesty, is bringing this case through the courts because of her own experience of having to travel to England when she was told that her pregnancy had a fatal foetal abnormality. The reasonable approach to take, recognising that that finding of incompatibility is coming at us in the next few months—

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Diana Johnson]

I need to finish this point.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

It is on that point.

[Diana Johnson]

I will give way, then.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I thank the hon. Lady for giving way. On the point about fatal foetal abnormality and the case involving Sarah Ewart, I have met Sarah on a number of occasions—most recently, last week—and she is very clear that, in respect of a change to the law on abortion in Northern Ireland, she does not want any change beyond dealing with the very narrow issue of fatal foetal abnormality. She is very clear about that, and I think she would want me to put that on the record on her behalf.

[Diana Johnson]

Today, we are looking at the opportunity we have with this Bill, and I think that most Members of this House would agree that legislation that is over 150 years old governing what is essentially a healthcare matter is no longer fit for purpose. That is why we should have the opportunity, as set out in my amendment, to look at the options available to the House when that finding of incompatibility comes down the road.

I want to respect the devolution settlement. That is why I have drafted the amendment with a sunset clause, so that once the Assembly is, we hope, back up and running, whatever we need to do in this House will revert back to the Assembly to carry forward.

I want to reiterate what I said last night. This idea came out of discussions we had on the Joint Committee conducting prelegislative scrutiny of the Domestic Abuse Bill. We found that if the Government wanted to ratify the Istanbul convention on combating violence against women and girls—which I am sure everybody in this House feels is an important thing to do—they could not because that Bill does not cover Northern Ireland, and Northern Ireland does not have legislation on issues such as stalking and coercive control. The idea that came out of that Committee was that we would again legislate for Northern Ireland, but with a sunset clause ready for when the Assembly is up and running again—it could then take the matter in whatever direction it wanted to—so that the bare minimum is in place.

I hope that the Committee will look at amendment 9 carefully, because it would give us an opportunity to consider how to take the matter forward. I think that all Members are really very concerned and moved by the stories of women who have been affected by the current abortion laws in Northern Ireland, and I am sure that we all want to ensure that we do not carry on, year after year, with the issue of women’s reproductive rights and healthcare in Northern Ireland not being addressed and with their human rights not being upheld. I hope that the Committee will support amendment 9.

[Huw Merriman]

I rise to speak in favour of amendment 9, the details of which have just been explained by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson); of new clause 10, tabled by the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy); and of new clause 1, which stands in the name of the hon. Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn). I will focus on abortion in Northern Ireland.

I have some sympathy with the point that this is a very narrowly defined Bill that is supposed to deliver certain eventualities, and that the amendments are widening in scope. Of course, the Clerk of Legislation, who is an absolute legend in this place, has decided that they are within scope. It is greatly frustrating that we have been having this conversation in this place for some time, because the Supreme Court has decreed that the law is incompatible with our obligations under treaty rights. When it comes to treaty rights, that is a matter for Parliament to correct; it is not a matter for Northern Ireland.

That opens up the point about why the Bill is being used in this regard. It is with regret, but with great frustration too, that we cannot seem to get Parliament to deliver by updating our laws to make them compliant with the Supreme Court’s judgment, because the Government have not moved.

I have great sympathy with the views held by hon. Members from Northern Ireland. I met representatives who were put in touch with me by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson), and they made their case, with great dignity and respect, for why they do not want to see abortion rights changed. I think it is important for us to meet all sides of the divide. Equally, I spent time with Amnesty International in Belfast, meeting those who felt that their lives had been ruined by the current situation.

It feels wrong to me that one part of the United Kingdom can be left behind with a near total ban on abortion. The situation is even more perverse now that the Republic has changed its legal position on the matter. In 2018, as we have heard, 1,053 women had to travel outside Northern Ireland in order to exercise the rights that would be available to them elsewhere in the UK. That shows the absurdity of the situation, because the abortions still took place, but the extra inconvenience has to be suffered. I think that we need to change that.

I want to return to the words of Lady Hale in her Supreme Court judgment. She said:

“I agree, for the reasons given by Lord Kerr and Lord Mance, that in denying a lawful termination of her pregnancy in Northern Ireland to those women and girls in these situations who wish for it, the law is incompatible with their Convention rights.”

She then explained that Parliament—she was very clear that this was for Parliament—could do three things:

“First, it may share the court’s view and approve a ‘fast track’ remedial order under section 10 of the HRA”—

the Human Rights Act 1998;

“Second, it may share our view and pass an Act of Parliament to put things right… Third, it may do nothing”

and see the matter taken further, through to Strasbourg. More tellingly, for me—this is why I think we have it within our gift and should enact the provision—she said the following:

“It is at this point that the democratic will, as expressed through the elected representatives of the people, rules the day.”

The Bill is perhaps not the best vehicle, but the law requires updating. We have an opportunity now to give people their dignity and their human rights.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)]

I rise to support new clause 1, along with amendment 9, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), and new clauses 10, 11 and 12, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy).

The reality facing women in Northern Ireland is that, under current legislation, they can be sent to prison for life for ending a pregnancy. Abortion is not available to women in Northern Ireland in cases of fatal foetal abnormality, rape or incest. That is not a situation that we would tolerate for any of our own constituents, and we should not be tolerating it for UK citizens in Northern Ireland. The UK Supreme Court takes the same view, and has stated that the lack of access to abortion for women in Northern Ireland is a breach of their human rights.

I think it very unfortunate that the right hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) and the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) sought to undermine committees of the United Nations and CEDAW to try to make points that should not be made in the context of this very important issue. I think that that was unacceptable, and that all of us in the Chamber should be upholding the UN’s findings and supporting all the reports and recommendations from CEDAW.

It is not even as if the legislation in Northern Ireland actually prevents women from having abortions. It prevents some women from having abortions—those who, for a variety of reasons, such as poverty or a set of family circumstances, are not able to travel to England. That is an appalling situation for women in Northern Ireland, and we must do something about it.

I thank all those who have campaigned for many decades in Northern Ireland to change the law relating to abortion. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Kingston upon Hull North and for Walthamstow, who have done so much in continuing to raise the issue in Parliament and with the Women and Equalities Committee. I suspect, however, that I am the only Member in the Chamber to have campaigned against the abortion laws in Northern Ireland for decades. I began campaigning with a group of women for the Abortion Act 1967 to be applied to Northern Ireland. We thought, even back then, that it was important for women throughout the UK to have the same access to abortion, wherever they lived, and for their human rights—although I doubt that was the language we used at the time—to be upheld uniformly.

[Diana Johnson]

I commend my hon. Friend on her perseverance over all these years of campaigning for this. Hopefully, we will see some change shortly, but it is important to recognise that there have been decades of campaigning by so many strong, brave women and men.

[Dr Blackman-Woods]

I thank my hon. Friend for those comments.

I want to address some of the comments made by Members in the Chamber, particularly those representing Northern Ireland constituencies. They will know that I do not often speak on Northern Ireland matters because I respect the fact that they are the elected representatives for the area. Nevertheless, as we have seen demonstrated today, the issues we are discussing are about upholding human rights right across the UK.

I, too, honestly wish that the issue of abortion rights and extending them to Northern Ireland was being addressed by an enlightened Assembly in Northern Ireland, but unfortunately, as we all know, the Assembly is not sitting and is not likely to sit for some time, so we have a decision to make this afternoon: do we sit on these Benches, twiddle our thumbs and think that maybe sometime in the next three, five or 10 years we will get around to making a decision about abortion and what is happening to women in Northern Ireland? I hope we do not make that decision.

We all assume that women in Northern Ireland are able to travel to England to secure an abortion, but of course, not all woman can, so we still have women in Northern Ireland accessing backstreet abortions. It is hard to believe that this is happening in our country in this day and age.

I did not know decades ago that I was going to be in a situation one day where I could do something to secure better access to safe abortion services for women in Northern Ireland, but I am in that position, and all of us in this Chamber are in that position today. I hope that we will set aside the arguments about devolution, important though they are, because at the moment we cannot get a solution to this problem through the devolved Assembly. What we have to do instead is wake up to the opportunity that we all have to stop women in Northern Ireland having to travel to England for an abortion and to enable them to access safe abortion services the way any other woman can in the UK. It is also wrong to say that this will open the floodgates to unregulated abortion; we heard from my hon. Friends the Members for Kingston upon Hull North and for Walthamstow about the frameworks that have been set out to deliver regulated abortion services in Northern Ireland.

This is not an issue that has been delayed for two-plus years while the Assembly has not been sitting; it has been an issue for four decades, if not longer, and we must act now to protect the women in Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Diana Johnson Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 8th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon]

rose—

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon).

--- Later in debate ---

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

Having sat through the debate, I think it is quite clear that nobody really wants this Bill. It is a contingency Bill. We all hope that the discussions and meetings will bear fruit and that the Assembly and Executive will be up and running. We all want that to happen, and it is quite clear from what the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said that tough decisions are not being taken at the moment.

There have been compelling speeches from Members across the House—including the hon. Members for Lewes (Maria Caulfield), for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly) and for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson)—about all the important issues that need to be addressed, such as health and education. I was struck by the speeches from my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn), who spoke about same-sex marriage, and my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), who made a compelling case for a woman’s right to choose.

I want to refer to my experience on the recent prelegislative scrutiny Committee of this House and the other place on the Domestic Abuse Bill. As my hon. Friend has mentioned, that Bill was brought forward by the Prime Minister to make sure that we can not only sign but ratify the Istanbul convention on domestic abuse. That Bill is really important, and the one thing the Committee was concerned about was that there is no provision for Northern Ireland. As has already been said, issues of coercive control and stalking are not covered in Northern Irish law, as I understand it, and on that basis we would not be able to ratify the Istanbul convention.

The reason I am talking about that is that one of the recommendations from the cross-party prelegislative scrutiny Committee was that we ought to legislate for that in this place, but do so on the basis of a sunset clause for when the Assembly is up and running again, so it can then decide how it wishes to legislate for Northern Ireland. We felt so strongly about it that we thought that was the sensible approach to take.

I have borrowed from the approach of that particular Committee to table an amendment—I hope it might be selected tomorrow—saying that just as, under clause 3, the Secretary of State will provide a report on progress in bringing the Assembly back together, she could also put together a report on how this House, or the Westminster Parliament, could deal with the breach of human rights—women’s human rights—in Northern Ireland.

We know the Supreme Court is going to find such a breach in the next few months. We are absolutely clear from what was said in Sarah Ewart’s case earlier this year that there is going to be a finding of incompatibility. As we know—one of the DUP Members admitted it—that means it will fall to this place, the Westminster Parliament, to remedy that situation.

My amendment, which I hope we may be able to debate tomorrow, is to get the Secretary of State to do the work now—prepare, plan, talk to the parties—on how we can remedy the breaches of women’s human rights in relation to the legal framework on abortion, while also recognising the devolution settlement by saying, if Westminster has to take some action, that there will be a sunset clause for when the Assembly is up and running again, just as with the Domestic Abuse Bill proposal made by the Committee I spoke about earlier.

This is an opportunity to move forward and be practical about preparing for the inevitable, which is the Supreme Court decision that is coming down the tracks. Whether people like it or not, we are going to have to face this, so let us get the preparation and the planning done now, and also recognise devolution by having such a sunset clause. This is obviously a matter for tomorrow, and I think it is a practical way forward.