Christopher Chope
Main Page: Christopher Chope (Conservative - Christchurch)(12 years, 11 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
I beg to move amendment 59, page 1, line 3, leave out
‘the time for general purposes’
and insert
‘the period of summer time (within the meaning of the Summer Time Act 1972)’.
Mr Speaker
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 58, page 1, line 6, after ‘Ireland’, insert
‘specifically including the interests and concerns of the principal faith communities within the UK.’.
Amendment 3, page 1, line 9, leave out clause 2.
Amendment 63, in clause 2, page 1, line 11, after ‘group’, insert ‘of independent academic experts’.
Amendment 22, page 1, line 12, at end insert—
‘(1A) Membership of the Group must be ratified by a resolution of both Houses of Parliament.’.
Amendment 64, page 2, line 1, leave out subsection (4).
Amendment 65, page 2, line 3, leave out subsection (5).
Amendment 12, page 2, line 6, at end insert—
‘(6) Such terms of reference must include an investigation into the impact on energy consumption of advancing time by one hour.’.
Amendment 23, page 2, line 6, at end insert—
‘(b) Membership of the Independent Oversight Group must include at least one representative from each of the four nations of the United Kingdom.’.
Amendment 95, in clause 14, page 6, line 2, leave out ‘Daylight Saving’ and insert ‘European Time’.
Amendment 5, in clause 3, page 2, line 10, leave out subsection (2).
Amendment 25, page 2, line 14, leave out ‘18’ and insert ‘24’.
Amendment 60, in clause 4, page 2, line 19, leave out ‘the time for general purposes’ and insert
‘the period of summer time (within the meaning of the Summertime Act 1972)’.
Amendment 67, page 2, line 21, leave out ‘daylight saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’.
Amendment 68, page 2, line 23, leave out ‘daylight saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’.
Amendment 69, page 2, line 28, leave out ‘daylight saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’.
Amendment 81, page 2, line 32, leave out ‘daylight saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’.
Amendment 83, page 2, line 36, leave out ‘daylight saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’.
Amendment 84, page 2, line 40, leave out ‘daylight saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’.
Amendment 89, in clause 5, page 3, line 10, leave out ‘daylight saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’.
Amendment 90, in clause 6, page 3, line 12, leave out ‘daylight saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’.
Amendment 91, page 3, line 19, leave out ‘daylight saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’.
Amendment 71, in clause 8, page 3, line 34, leave out ‘daylight saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’.
Amendment 72, in clause 9, page 4, line 4, leave out ‘time’ and insert ‘summertime’.
Amendment 76, in clause 11, page 4, line 25, leave out ‘daylight saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’.
Amendment 61, in clause 12, page 4, line 35, leave out subsection (1).
Amendment 79, page 5, line 37, leave out subsection (8).
Amendment 93, in clause 14, page 6, line 2, leave out ‘daylight saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’.
Mr Chope
I wish to introduce a discussion on amendment 59 and the other 27 amendments, from Members on all sides of the House, that you have included in this group, Mr Speaker. Before I outline the reasoning behind amendment 59, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) on having steered her first private Member’s Bill so far. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] As you know, Mr Speaker, I have been in this House for some 23 years and have never got a private Member’s Bill as far as my hon. Friend has, so she is to be congratulated. I did not oppose the Bill on Second Reading, because I hoped that I would be able to change it through amendment, should the opportunity arise. That is the background to where we are today.
Amendment 59 is born of two deep-seated political convictions that I hold. First, I believe passionately in the Union of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. That means that I support a single currency for the Union, the pound sterling, and a single time zone. I am a Conservative, as well. In other words, I do not support change unless there is an overwhelming case for making it.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
My hon. Friend says that he is a passionate supporter of the Union, but another strong union is the United States, yet it has different time zones.
Mr Chope
I will not be drawn into having a discussion about the United States, because the Bill is fairly and squarely about the United Kingdom, a far superior country to the United States. I am not unfamiliar with the fact that there are countries with more than one time zone. Last weekend I was in Kazakhstan, which has two time zones and, as my hon. Friend will know, is the ninth largest country in the world.
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
It is worth pointing out that the coming power of the next century, China, has only the one time zone, and as we know from Noel Coward, China’s very big.
Mr Chope
Absolutely, Mr Speaker, and of course the other amendments in this group.
I believe that the original proposals in the Bill were contentious, divisive and essentially selfish. The rewriting of the Bill in Committee, at the behest of the Government, has made it clear that we can have only one time zone in the United Kingdom, which I think is a welcome measure of support for the Union. However, the Bill’s Achilles heel is that it has been redrafted in such a way that it would enable the United Kingdom Government to change the time zone in Scotland without the consent of the Scottish Parliament. We know that the Scottish Parliament, and MPs representing Scottish constituencies, do not support a change that would make winter mornings in Scotland even colder and darker than they are already.
Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)
For the record, I am here this morning to support the hon. Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris), and I spoke in a general debate in favour of the change the year before last.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
To support the hon. Gentleman’s assertion, I point out that I was on a radio programme on BBC Radio Scotland a number of months ago on which there was a balance of contributions on daylight saving. However, the overwhelming majority of callers to the programme were against the move.
Mr Chope
If that is so, and I am sure it is, we are in danger of embarking on a course that will waste an enormous amount of public money and Government time. The Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), said in Committee that a trial involving advancing all the clocks in the UK by one hour would not proceed
“if there was clear opposition from any part of the country.”––[Official Report, Daylight Saving Public Bill Committee, 7 December 2011; c. 4.]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)
indicated assent.
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
I am terribly worried, because I normally agree with my hon. Friend, but he says that Scotland has a right of veto, and I want to know who speaks for England. Does England have an opportunity to have its own view heard as well?
Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)
I am a little disturbed that the debate is already going down the England-Scotland route. There is a Welsh dimension to it, and there is a UK dimension to the whole thing. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that tourism and road safety are just as important in Wales as in other parts of the United Kingdom?
Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman said earlier what a strong and passionate advocate of the Union he was. Should not this United Kingdom Parliament therefore determine the time zone for the whole United Kingdom?
Mr Chope
I agree, and that is exactly what we are doing, but my concern is that if this Parliament changes the time zone for the United Kingdom against the wishes of the people of Scotland, it will give extra ammunition to those people in Scotland who are campaigning for independence. We would be playing into their hands if we forced the Bill through.
Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)
Is not the reality that we should have a review and see what the predominant opinion and the strongest arguments are on this important issue? If the general mood right across the UK is that we should have a change, and that sports clubs and tourism should have the advantages that it would bring, surely we should not be denied a review simply because of the views of a small number of people.
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the debates on the matter in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England ought to be based on the research of Mayer Hillman, whose booklet “Time for Change” points out that some of those who would gain the most are in Scotland?
Mr Chope
It is easy for people to assert, in a rather patronising way, that a particular measure will benefit people in Scotland, but on Second Reading some hon. Members representing Scottish constituencies expressed a completely different view. I would prefer to trust their assessment of their constituents’ wishes than rely upon some academic treatise, which I am afraid to tell my hon. Friend I have not yet had the opportunity to look at.
Mr MacNeil
If there is any perception of high-handedness from Westminster, last week’s figure of 1,000 new members of the Scottish National party will probably be dwarfed. That, of course, was through www.snp.org/join.
Mr Chope
The hon. Gentleman and I are on the same side on this issue, and I am not totally unfamiliar with Scotland because I had the privilege of spending four years as a university undergraduate there. I remember those cold mornings, as a keen undergraduate, getting up early and facing the stiff east wind in the dark. I understand and feel for the people in Scotland who are faced with the prospect of having even darker mornings.
Mr Tom Harris
The hon. Gentleman is making the point that evidence should be discarded and the personal opinions of individual Members should be set on a higher level. Is he not in favour of evidence-based policy making? The Bill would allow the evidence for or against a change to be seen after a trial period. If the result of the trial was that my constituents were going to be put in greater danger, of course I would oppose a permanent change at the end of the trial. Is he not in the same position?
Mr Chope
My difficulty is that there is nothing to prevent the Government from commissioning an inquiry and getting the evidence that would enable the hon. Gentleman to reach a decision on this contentious issue. I cannot understand why, if the Government support the Bill, they have not already embarked on getting a body of evidence together. That evidence could then be presented to the House and we could decide whether we thought, in the light of that evidence, that we should make any changes to the clocks. I will refer to that in a bit more detail later.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
Well, there is some evidence, is there not? One might say that as a London MP I would say that, but the Greater London authority’s economic experts have suggested that the UK economy would benefit by about £1 billion in all regions, not just in London. There is already some evidence.
Mr Chope
Certainly there is, and my hon. Friend refers to it, but I believe that the Government and the promoter of the Bill accept that there is not enough evidence on which to take a decision. The Government are saying they need to gather more evidence, which suggests that the evidence to which my hon. Friend refers is not sufficient for either the promoter of the Bill or the Government.
Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is evidence that upwards of 80,000 new jobs could come from the Bill, if it were implemented? Given the state of the economy, is it not crucial that when we have an opportunity, at little cost, to create new jobs, the House should support it?
Mr Chope
I am probably more in favour of developing new jobs in the economy through enterprise and competition than many other Members. My reading of the evidence so far is that those new jobs would come mainly from tourism. My amendment 59, which would confine the experiment to extending British summer time by 1 hour rather than interfering with Greenwich mean time in the winter, would address the area that has the greatest potential benefit and which is most likely to increase the number of jobs.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
Surely the hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that tourism stops in the winter in great cities such as London, York and Edinburgh.
Mr Chope
No, I am not suggesting that at all. I am not suggesting that money is only to be made out of tourism during daylight hours. Indeed, there is a lot of tourism in London in the night time economy that is very beneficial to the country’s economy. I see my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) in his place. He will know that the night time economy in Bournemouth is also flourishing and thriving. That is not dependent on having this Bill on the statute book.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
Is not another piece of evidence the fact that about £138 million a year could be saved in the NHS by reducing the number of road casualties?
Fiona Bruce
Apparently the figure comes from the Department for Transport’s estimates.
Mr Chope
As a former Transport Minister, far be it from me to criticise the Department for Transport. I have to say, though, that most of the alleged benefits—by which I mean the reduction in the numbers of road casualties—would occur in Scotland, but given that road safety is, as I understand it, a devolved matter, if the Scottish Parliament wishes to take action to improve road safety, including by doing something along the lines suggested in the Bill, surely it must be a matter for the Scottish Parliament. I am conscious that on Second Reading mention was made of the fact that during the last experiment in the north of Scotland, notwithstanding changes being made to drink-driving laws and so on, the number of road casualties actually increased.
Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
One of the most significant factors is that over the past year the number of road accidents in Scotland has fallen. Had we passed the Bill on its First Reading, we might have misattributed that reduction to the effects of daylight. In actual fact, however, road accidents have far less to do with the amount of daylight than with other factors, such as how people drive and the weather conditions, for example. I urge caution over some of that evidence.
Mr Chope
The hon. Lady’s words are very wise. My experience as road safety Minister in the Department for Transport leads me to believe that we must be careful not to draw the wrong conclusions from experiments. My view is that a stronger law on drug-driving would have a significant impact on road safety in our country. But that is not a debate for this morning.
Sir Peter Bottomley
The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) is right to say that the number of road deaths fell from 5,600 a year in 1986 to 1,850 in Great Britain last year. The point is that when we change our clocks back, the number of deaths rises—that happens regardless of the underlying level. If we are seriously interested in cutting the number of unnecessary deaths, we have to go for this review, including for the winter, but, as I understand it, my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) is suggesting that we do not include winter in the review.
Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con)
My hon. Friend refers to a past review but he knows the figures and he knows perfectly well that it demonstrated conclusively that there was a reduction in the number of road traffic accidents.
Sir Peter Bottomley
The answer is simple: the politicians lost their nerve. The small increase in the morning was heavily outweighed by the reduction in the afternoons and evenings, yet the minority effect was taken as the majority one. That is the kind of thing that can happen outside the House, but it should not happen inside. We should pay attention to the majority arguments. Had we accepted the review, we would never have gone back to what we have now, which has cost us 20,000 deaths and injuries in the past 30 years.
Mr Chope
My hon. Friend states that the politicians lost their nerve. I do not know whether that is correct, but surely the important thing is that the House, with the combined political wisdom of all its Members, ultimately takes the decision. Instead of leaving it, as the Bill does, to the Government to introduce an order—albeit one that would have to be approved by the affirmative procedure —the Government should introduce a Bill having first gathered the evidence. That way we could vote on the Bill in an informed way.
Bob Stewart
Let us be quite clear. If there is evidence, as there seems to be, that changing how we run our clocks will save lives—according to the London estimate, it would mean six fewer deaths and 23 fewer severe injuries a year—we have a duty to consider how we manage our time. That is our responsibility as a Parliament.
Mr Chope
I do not wish to criticise my hon. Friend in public but he will know that the outstanding Mayor of London introduced facilities to encourage more cycling in London. It is possible to argue, from the figures that I have seen, that as a consequence there have been more injuries and deaths among London cyclists, but I do not think that my hon. Friend would argue that we should ban cycling in London just because it might save lives.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. May I say how much we are enjoying the oration from my hon. Friend and constituency neighbour? It does seem, however, to be taking on the feeling of a Second Reading—
Mr Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman should resume his seat. I say to him for the avoidance of doubt that were the debate taking that shape, I would intervene to prevent it, but it has not yet done so. I am grateful to him for his solicitous concern for the debate but he can happily leave it with me.
Mr MacNeil
These comments about the numbers of road deaths and accidents are misleading. The graph on deaths in the mid to late ’60s shows their number falling before and during the trial but falling more steeply after it. It is possible to argue, therefore, that the trial delayed the downward glide of the number of road fatalities and that there are people who died during that period who might not have done had we not had those three years of dark winter mornings.
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that most accidents happen during the period of the day that would benefit most from the change in time zones?
Mr Chope
I am afraid that I do not accept that. One specious statistic that has been mentioned suggests that more accidents involving children occur between 3 and 6 o’clock in the afternoon than between 7 and 10 in the morning. Of course, most children are at school from 8.30 am onwards, so between 8.30 and 10 am there are hardly any children around, whereas schools break up for the day earlier than they used to, so there is a lot more activity on the road among children between 3 and 6 o’clock. To compare the morning period to the afternoon period simplistically is not intellectually correct.
Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that as the results of the previous review are disputed, and as this debate keeps turning into a debate about the evidence either way, there is even more need for a proper review with proper evidence that we can then debate? My hon. Friend speaks eloquently, and I hope one day to be able to emulate his eloquence, but is it not the case that the more we talk about the issue, the more we risk yet again denying the British public the opportunity to hear this debate balanced in evidence?
The subject has come back to the House again and again. This is possibly less a debate about the pros and cons of daylight saving than it is a debate about whether internal process gets in the way of getting things done for the people outside the House.
Mr Chope
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, but I will not be seduced by her generous comments. A review to collect, examine and analyse the evidence can be undertaken by the Government now, without the need for any legislation. If she thinks that that should be done—I agree that it would be extremely helpful—it could be done without the Bill, if the Government had the will to do something about it. That is why I have other concerns about how the Bill is drafted.
Sir Peter Bottomley
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. We understand your response to my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), but my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) now appears to be saying that we do not need the Bill. In my experience, that is not properly a matter for debate on an amendment.
Mr Speaker
The answer is that passing reference by the hon. Member for Christchurch to his view on the merits or demerits of the Bill is in order, but dilation on that matter is not. For that reason, I think that the hon. Member for Christchurch would be well advised to take a gentle hint and focus on amendment 59, which gives a man of his experience, ingenuity and indefatigability considerable scope in any case.
Mr Chope
I am grateful to you, Mr Speaker, and to my hon. Friend for his point of order. For the sake of clarification, I was suggesting that the part of the Bill calling for the collection of evidence is not necessary, but we can develop those arguments in due course if there are amendments pertinent to it.
The most important thing is that I should make some progress. I have not made much, owing to the number of interventions and the amount of interest in this group of amendments. There is opposition to such a change in Scotland; I can see that there is some support as well. In the past year, the Government have basically done nothing in relation to the Bill since Second Reading. They have not considered the evidence. If they had, we might not need to allow up to 18 months for the proposed inquiry. At the moment, the Government suggest that it could take 18 months rather than one year. My amendment would reduce the scope of that inquiry, thereby reducing the costs and enabling progress to be made more quickly. Those who want progress will see merit in amendment 59, because it would focus the scope of any inquiry.
Mr MacNeil
The effect of darkness has been asserted in the Chamber. In fact, the most dangerous hour on the road is 3 o’clock in the afternoon, which is in daylight all the time. Another point to bear in mind is that since the trial, the fatality rate has dropped from about 7,500 a year to below 2,500 a year. The improvements in road safety have been due to a number of other factors. Daylight does not seem to be as big a factor as some Members would have us believe.
Mr Chope
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point.
I must get back to the amendments. I believe that most of the opposition to the Bill is based on concern about moving away from Greenwich mean time in the winter: that is, from the last weekend in October to the last weekend in March. Those five months have the least daylight, and rebalancing the clock to achieve an extra hour of daylight in the evening can occur only at the expense of losing daylight at the time when most people are starting their day and going to work or school. Most support for the Bill—certainly as evidenced by the small number of my constituents who have written to me—is due to the fact that it would give longer evenings between April and October.
If one accepts those two propositions, it seems sensible to focus on extending British summer time rather than interfering with the application of Greenwich mean time. It would be lighter later throughout the summer and during much of the spring and autumn, satisfying those who want more time to play outdoor sport in the evenings. I have had representations from people who play bowls in Christchurch. People who play cricket or tennis, or who indulge in golf, sailing or surfing would also benefit from lighter evenings, because they do not normally want to get up early in the morning to participate in those activities.
Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con)
I have received a number of representations from constituents who are clear that they want to enjoy an extra hour of sport during the whole year. That would be delivered if, as many of us in the House want, the clocks were changed all year round.
Mr Chope
With the greatest respect, I do not believe that that could be achieved unless we created more daylight. There is a finite amount of daylight in the winter months. If we reduce the amount of daylight in the mornings and increase it in the evenings, people will still have little time to participate in sport during the working day.
Angie Bray
Nobody seeks to play sport at 7.30 in the morning. They are more likely to do so at 4 in the afternoon. That is precisely what they would be able to do if we were to make that change.
Mr Chope
Again, it is dangerous to generalise. I do not know about you, Mr Speaker, but some Members of the House go jogging at 7.30 in the morning. It would be wrong to suggest that they should be excluded from our discussions. At the moment, at 7.30 in the morning, daylight is just about breaking in London, but if the Bill were passed and the clocks were changed, they would be jogging in darkness.
Mr Speaker
Order. Just before the hon. Gentleman gives way, and pursuant to the intervention that he has just taken, I know that in focusing on amendment 59 and the amendments with which it is grouped, he will want to turn his remarks to the preparation of the report on the costs and benefits of the time zone.
Hugh Bayley
There are 50 Members in the Chamber at the moment, all of whom have views on the Bill and many of whom, like me, support it. The hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) has been speaking for more than half an hour. Does he believe that his views are more important than those of the rest of us in the Chamber, or will he sit down to give others the opportunity to speak as well?
Mr Chope
The hon. Gentleman says that I have been speaking for all that time. Actually, I have not. Much of that time has been given to other people who have sought to intervene. As a matter of courtesy, I have allowed those interventions, in the same way that I allowed his. I hope that he will not misrepresent the situation and give a false impression.
Hugh Bayley
I most certainly would not want to misrepresent the hon. Gentleman’s views, but the question is simple: is he going to allow time for other Members to speak?
Mr Chope
I hope there will be plenty of time for other Members to speak. That is why I want to make more progress in discussing these amendments. The hon. Gentleman, who is a member of the Panel of Chairs, knows the rules of procedure and knows that this amendment has been selected along with other amendments, so it is reasonable that we should discuss it and others in the group. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is not supporting the principle of the tyranny of the majority. This House has made its reputation among the democracies of the world on the basis that it allows the minority to have their say. I believe that that is an important fundamental principle.
Hugh Bayley
It is a simple question: is the hon. Gentleman trying to talk out this Bill or does he believe that others should be able to express their views, as they have the same right to speak as he enjoys?
Mr Chope
It is basically the luck of the draw. If an hon. Member’s amendment is selected as the lead amendment in a group, it is obviously that hon. Member’s responsibility to speak to that amendment and conduct a debate around it. [Interruption.] I think this is developing into a rather puerile discussion.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
There are 28 amendments in this group. If my hon. Friend were to devote just five minutes to discussing each one, it would take two hours and 20 minutes. Surely that is what we want—a proper discussion of all the issues, amendment by amendment.
Sir Peter Bottomley
I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s response to my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), because the attitude of the latter was the kind of thing that helped to delay the abolition of slavery for generations and stopped Samuel Plimsoll from getting a white line painted on ships to make sure that they did not turn over because they were overladen. My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch is right; he should get on.
Mr Chope
Let me summarise what I think is the strength of the argument for amendment 59. It would ensure that the change applied only to seven months of the year, so it would take less time and cost less to prepare and publish a report, for which clause 1 provides. The straight pro rata saving would be, on my calculation, about 40% in time and cost—well worth while in an age of austerity. The savings should be even greater, because the most contentious area of inquiry would not have to be addressed—namely, the costs and benefits of advancing GMT by one hour in the winter across the whole of the United Kingdom.
Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)
I have received many representations from the tourism sector in Thanet. My hon. Friend talks about reducing Greenwich mean time, but would it not be much simpler to do this universally right across the year? How many representations has my hon. Friend had from his tourism sector locally? As I say, I have had a huge number of them and he represents a similar coastal community.
Mr Chope
I am sure that I represent a similar coastal community, but I have to tell my hon. Friend that I am not aware of having received a single representation from the tourism industry, although I have had a number from constituents, some of whom, for all I know, might be involved in the tourism industry. I have written back to all such constituents and explained that I was concerned about the integrity of the Union and believed that many of their concerns could be addressed by looking at having an extension to British summer time while leaving GMT unchanged.
Mr Ellwood
I am sorry that my hon. Friend has not had an opportunity to speak to tourism operators in his constituency. He will know that his constituency is next door to mine, and I have had a chance to visit the tourism operators in his constituency. I apologise for not letting him know in advance, but they were and are very much in favour of this Bill. I add that we are supposed to be debating the report and that people’s attitude to my hon. Friend’s idea of not moving the clocks in winter but only in summer could be discovered when people react to the Government’s request for information when the report is put together. My hon. Friend’s amendment and request are, in effect, already in the Bill as it stands.
Mr Chope
I am almost lost for words. My hon. Friend has come into my constituency on I do not know how many occasions to talk to I know not which businesses about the Bill. I hope that he told them that their prime responsibility should be to communicate with me as the Member for Christchurch rather than through him as the Member for Bournemouth. East. Be that as it may, I have yet to hear from these businesses. They might be run by people who are resident in my hon. Friend’s constituency, so I have no problem with that. With the greatest respect, my hon. Friend misunderstands the purpose of amendment 59, which is to bring some focus and simplicity to this issue by concentrating on the summer months rather than complicating matters by including GMT.
Mr MacNeil
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that tourism is more a function of temperature and that it dies down in the winter months because it is colder? If any group of people can get up an hour earlier, take advantage of the entirety of the daylight and are free to do so it those who go on holiday. On holiday, we can choose when we go to bed and when we get up without reference to an employer or anybody else.
Mr Chope
The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful and persuasive point—one that I must admit I had not considered. He makes a worthwhile addition to our deliberations on this aspect of the Bill.
Before moving on to other amendments in the group, I urge the Minister to give his unqualified support to Government research on the potential costs and benefits of my proposal in the event of this Bill not reaching the statute book this Session. The Government do not need legislation or even the authority of the House to prepare a report. I have noted a certain reluctance on the part of the Government to engage in the lively debate consequent on the introduction of this Bill. If the Government are supportive of the Bill, as amended at their insistence in Committee, why have they not already produced or started work on producing a report from experts? I shall not be rude to the Government by suggesting that they have been sitting on the fence and wanting to have it both ways. That is not my nature, but I think that the Government and the Minister have to answer a number of questions about this matter.
At the behest of my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), let me turn briefly to some of the other amendments in the group. Amendment 58, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) and others, picks up a concern articulated in Committee that the Bill’s proposals could impact particularly adversely on faith communities. The amendment would require the Secretary of State to have specific regard to
“the interests and concerns of the principal faith communities”
in the UK. It seems a perfectly sensible amendment to me, as I would expect any amendment by my hon. Friend to be. If amendment 59 were carried, however, I believe that many of the concerns of faith communities such as Orthodox Jews would be addressed in any case because their concerns are centred principally around having darker mornings rather than lighter summer evenings. I recognise that amendment 59 would not satisfy amateur astronomers who would have to stay up even later to get a good view of the stars, but it would address the concerns underlying amendment 58.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
In fact, many astronomical phenomena take place early in the morning, so it might not be so clear cut for astronomers as my hon. Friend believes.
Mr Andrew Smith
We all respect the convictions of religious minorities and the obligations imposed on their members, but is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that more weight should be given to them than to the views of the rest of the population?
Mr Chope
My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley will be able to answer that question, because it relates to his amendment. I certainly think that the representations of mainstream religious organisations—the reference is to the mainstream, rather than to any quirky group—should be taken into account.
Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making an eloquent speech and is listening to all sections of opinion within the House. Does he agree that we should consider not only economic issues and concerns, but quality and well-being issues, such as the impact that the Bill would have on people’s religious observance, which many of my constituents have contacted me about?
Mr Chope
My hon. Friend makes a good point—of course he is a signatory to amendment 58 and he made the same point in Committee. This is about not only collecting evidence, but evaluating that evidence using the relevant criteria, including those to which he refers. That is probably one reason why he has misgivings about aspects of this Bill, as do a number of other hon. Members.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
As my amendment was mentioned, I am anxious to ensure that it is not misrepresented. Does my hon. Friend agree that it does not say that the concerns of those faith groups should take precedence over everybody else’s view? The amendment merely asks that regard be given to their concerns when a decision is taken.
Mr Chope
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point.
Amendment 3 stands in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset and I look forward to hearing his speech in support of it. The amendment proposes to leave out clause 2, and I may well share the scepticism of my hon. Friends who have supported that amendment, because they obviously feel that the Bill would be better if it made no reference to what is described as the “Independent Oversight Group”.
One thing seems to be absolutely clear: this so-called “Independent Oversight Group” will not be independent of the Government. Its members will be chosen by the Secretary of State, who will be able to remove them on a whim, and subsection (3) provides that they will not even be entitled to have all their expenses defrayed, because instead of using the word “must” the Bill refers only to “may” in this regard. They will not be allowed to choose their own terms of reference and they will have to do as they are told by the Secretary of State, even to the extent that he will be able to order them not to publish their advice quickly. They might produce their report quickly, but the clause means that the Secretary of State will be able to say to them that they should not produce the report based on their findings until a given time, perhaps closer to a year or 18 months after they had been asked to start their work. So I can understand the scepticism.
My hon. Friends the Members for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) and for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) and I have tabled the more modest amendment 63, which would require the independent group to be comprised of “independent academic experts”. We did so not because we believed that a group of independent academics is necessarily best suited to this task, but because the Minister promised in Committee that the group would be so limited and the amendment would prevent him from changing his mind later. The amendment would also provide the opportunity to probe him further as to how and why he believes that independent academic experts are the best people to advise on a report on the potential costs and benefits.
I have been campaigning for a long time for the Government to carry out work and produce a comprehensive report on the costs and benefits of UK membership of the European Union. I find it interesting that although the Government resolutely refuse to do that, they are prepared to contemplate such an inquiry into the costs and benefits of changing the time zones within this country.
Mr MacNeil
Did the hon. Gentleman fear, as I did when I heard the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) talk about sharing a time zone with Europe, creeping Euro-harmonisation, which perhaps would not be helpful at all in this instance?
Mr Chope
I am much more in favour of harmony than harmonisation, particularly on the European Union.
Amendment 22, which again stands in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley, states:
“Membership of the Group must be ratified by a resolution of both Houses of Parliament.”
It introduces a modest safeguard to try to ensure that the group is truly independent. What could be wrong with this House having an opportunity to ratify the membership of the group or to table amendments to remove individual members from or add them to it?
Philip Davies
Given the slightly different tack that my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) and I have taken in our amendments, does my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) feel that if my amendment were accepted, the necessary safeguards would be in place and he would then be happy for the independent oversight group to take shape?
Mr Chope
It would go some way to addressing the problem, but what the amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset bears out is that there is a certain amount of scepticism about whether the “Independent Oversight Group” will actually be independent. Giving this House the opportunity to ratify the membership or otherwise might obviously provide some safeguard, but this is not my preferred approach. If amendment 22 was, however, incorporated in the Bill, a Select Committee could perhaps try to get involved in the process and interview the people who were going to be cited on the Order Paper as appointments needing ratification by this House.
Philip Davies
But if we accepted amendments that made this group genuinely independent, surely that would be better than having no independent oversight group at all.
Mr Chope
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend about that.
Amendment 64 stands in my name and those of my hon. Friends the Members for Wellingborough and for Gainsborough. It proposes to omit subsection (4) from clause 2—this is the subsection that, above all, constrains the activities of the so-called “Independent Oversight Group”. From the Government’s perspective, the group can be independent, provided that it does as the Government say—I shall try to illustrate that with two specific examples. Under this subsection, the Secretary of State could prevent the group from examining separately the issues of whether to have experiments advancing the clocks by one hour: in the summer alone, in the winter alone, or across the whole year. Why do the Government insist on holding the whip hand? Another example of what could happen unless subsection (4) is removed is that the Government could prevent the publication of any minority report from the group. They could suppress dissent, because although the group might contain people who took a different view from the majority, the Government would be able to use their powers to say, “You are not allowed to produce a minority report.”
Sir Peter Bottomley
I often think that I understand what is going on. I thought that the oversight group was supposed to look at methodologies—the sort of thing for dry statisticians, rather than for people with strong personal views about what the outcome should be.
Mr Chope
My hon. Friend is right, as that was what was said in Committee. If one closely reads the Bill, however, one sees that it does not say that at all. It gives the impression that the oversight group might be able to give some advice on policy rather than just being a group of technocrats, but that is not what the Minister said in Committee. My hon. Friend is right to recall that in Committee we were told that this would be a technical group, but that is not what is on the face of the Bill. As a very experienced legislator, he knows that we must judge things on the basis of what is in the Bill rather than on what the Government say they intend. That is the background.
Amendment 65, which was again tabled by me and by my hon. Friends the Members for Wellingborough and for Gainsborough would leave out clause 2(5). The subsection is a major constraint on the independence of the group. It appears from what the Minister said in Committee that the Government want the group to establish facts but not to give too much, if any, advice to the Government. If the Government are choosing and controlling the membership of the group, however, why are they not willing to trust its members to behave responsibly and bring forward a comprehensive report of their own choosing? It is very difficult to find the best people to serve on independent groups, but it will be much more difficult to get the best people on to this group if they know that they are joining a group that will not be independent and that they will not be able to use their judgment because they are always beholden to the Government, who will be looking over their shoulder. Leaving out that subsection would enhance the independence of the group.
Amendment 12, tabled by the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), would require the terms of reference to include an investigation into the impact on energy consumption of advancing time by one hour. One might assume that such an investigation would be essential if the group were to produce a definitive report on the potential costs and benefits. The amendment, however, exposes the fact that the Secretary of State could specifically prevent the group from looking into such a matter. Some might say that I am being unduly suspicious of the Government and might ask what possible motive there could be for their doing that, but we know from the experience in Indiana that, with darker mornings, more energy was consumed than was offset by the reduction in energy use in the lighter evenings. I see that the hon. Gentleman is nodding in agreement.
Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
The hon. Gentleman mentions an important point about the Indiana study, and there was also a study in this country. The Building Research Establishment conducted some modelling in 2005 and found that advancing the time by one hour would increase energy consumption and CO2 emissions by 2%. That is why the investigation into the energy consumption is extremely important.
Bob Stewart
I accept that point, but my hon. Friend must also accept that there is other evidence. For example, in London, there will be an annual reduction of 80,000 tonnes of CO2 and energy savings of £20 million a year. We do not know the facts, which is all the more reason why we should have a trial to find them out as best we can.
Mr Chope
In that case, my hon. Friend will obviously be very supportive of amendment 12. It would ensure that the facts to which he has just referred would have to be examined by the independent panel. I am sure that our hon. Friend—if we can call him that as a member of the coalition—the Member for Argyll and Bute would be very supportive of the view taken by my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart). I hope that amendment 12 will find favour with the Government and with the promoter of the Bill.
That brings me to amendment 23, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley, which would require the independent oversight group to have at least one member from each of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. That seems eminently sensible, because what can the Bill’s promoter or the Government have against having somebody from each of the four nations of the United Kingdom represented on the group?
Jacob Rees-Mogg
Will my hon. Friend assure me that if that amendment were passed, the representative from England would come from Somerset?
Mr Chope
I should have anticipated my hon. Friend’s intervention; I am sure that the Government would wish to receive representations and would be very sympathetic towards representations along those lines. Let us hope that that is so. As somebody who spent quite a lot of my late childhood in Cornwall, I think it would also be useful to have a representative from England who came from the far south-west, as the circumstances there are rather different from those in what might be described as the soft south-east. I do not know what, if anything, the Government have against the amendment. I know that in Committee it was proposed that the independent panel should have three experts from each of the four nations comprising the United Kingdom. This amendment is modest in comparison, but it introduces a worthwhile safeguard to ensure that any report is fully informed by the perspective of all parts of the United Kingdom.
Amendment 95, tabled by my hon. Friends the Members for Shipley, for Hendon (Mr Offord) and for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) and others, addresses the same issue as amendment 58 in slightly different language. The amendment talks about the impact and effect on the practices of the mainstream faith groups in the United Kingdom. It is a very sensible amendment although, as with amendment 58, if my amendment 59 were agreed, it would be redundant.
Amendment 5, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset and supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley, me and my hon. Friends the Members for Wellingborough and for Gainsborough, would leave out clause 3(2). Clause 3(1) requires the Secretary of State to publish the report of the independent oversight group within one year of Royal Assent, but subsection (2) gives the group a possible additional six months. Why? Why do they need an additional six months? If amendment 59 were accepted, the group would have less work to do but, in any event, surely one year is long enough for its work. If the group's members know that they have a chance of extending their work by another six months, they might be tempted to do so, but they should get down to the work they are being asked to do. In this country, we have a tendency to delay and delay and to think that that is a solution to our problems. As I said earlier, last weekend I was in Kazakhstan, where they have built a new city of 800,000 people in less than 15 years. If they can do that in 15 years, why will it take more than a year for this group to consider such a modest issue? We tolerate delay to far too great an extent and if we want to get on with this, we should get on with it—I hope my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point, who is promoting the Bill, would agree—for better or for worse. We should not, however, use the delaying tactic.
That brings me to amendment 25. I am rushing through these amendments, but I think it is important to address them. Sometimes, the people who are impatient to take the debate forward try to move a closure motion, which means that Members with amendments in the lead group do not have a chance to speak about them before there is an attempt to curtail such debate by using the procedures of the House. What I am doing by going through these amendments seriatim is giving those who tabled them the opportunity to expand on them if they so wish. In any event, I am ensuring that the full nature and extent of the amendments is officially on the record so that if the Bill goes to the other place for debate, those who pick up these issues there will be able to look at the report of today’s proceedings and decide which, if any, of the amendments find favour with them.
Amendment 25 would leave out “18” and insert “24” in line 14 of subsection 2(b). This is the only one of the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley with which I do not agree. I think it contradicts absolutely amendment 5, which he has also signed.
Philip Davies
My hon. Friend is right that it does, but the time scale for the independent oversight group surely depends on its terms of reference. The amendment was tabled in case the terms of reference were extended in the way I have requested, considering the impact on other faith groups, and the way the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) mentioned, considering energy consumption. If those amendments were accepted, the group would need longer to consider those issues, but if they were not accepted, the shorter period of time that my hon. Friend mentioned earlier would be more than acceptable.
Mr Chope
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for explaining the thinking behind amendment 25.
On the amendments relating to clause 4, amendment 60, is consequential on amendment 59. Clause 4 gives the Secretary of State the power to make an order advancing the time in the United Kingdom throughout the year by one hour. Following on from my lead amendment 59, amendment 60 would restrict that power to advancing summer time alone by one hour.
Amendment 67, in my name and those of my hon. Friends the Members for Wellingborough and for Gainsborough, would change the name of such an order from a “daylight saving” order to a “summertime extension” order. That wording would promote both accuracy and transparency. Frankly, I object strongly to the expression “daylight saving” because it is against nature to be able to save daylight. I think the Bill’s promoter is effectively committing daylight robbery of the English language in using that expression.
Sir Peter Bottomley
Was it not the expression that Sir Winston Churchill used when he brought in daylight saving during the war?
Mr Chope
The expression might have been used by that distinguished former leader of our country during wartime, but we know that in a wartime atmosphere people sometimes use expressions that are designed to raise morale but that might not be 100% in line with the English language. If that was what happened, and I have no reason to doubt my hon. Friend, that is probably what caused Sir Winston Churchill to lapse into that sort of language, which is not appropriate in legislation. I do not think my hon. Friend is suggesting that Sir Winston Churchill had that language incorporated in a piece of legislation.
That brings me to a group of 11 amendments that are identical to amendment 67, but I would be trying the patience of the House if I did anything other than say that those amendments—to lines 23, 28, 32, 36 and 40 of clause 4, to line 10 of clause 5, to lines 12 and 19 of clause 6, to line 34 of clause 8, to line 25 of clause 11 and to line 2 of clause 14—all change the wording from “daylight saving” to “summertime extension”.
Amendment 72 in clause 9, line 4, would delete “time” and insert “summertime”. Clause 9 addresses what happens at the end of any trial period, and the amendment would give the Secretary of State the option of advancing summer time by one hour permanently.
Amendment 61, in my name and those of my hon. Friends the Members for Wellingborough and for Gainsborough, in clause 12, page 4, line 35, would leave out subsection (1). Clause 12 is the interpretation clause and subsection (1) defines what is meant by the expression
“advancing the time for general purposes in the United Kingdom”.
That is an extraordinary expression to incorporate in a piece of legislation. Clause 12 says that it means adding one hour to Greenwich mean time in the winter and one hour to summer time in the summer. As I hope is apparent from my introductory remarks, I regard adding an hour to Greenwich mean time in the winter as unacceptable—hence my amendment.
Amendment 79 is the last amendment to which I need to speak in the Chamber. [Interruption.] I hear people saying, “Hear, Hear,” and I agree. It has taken much longer to discuss this group of amendments than I expected, but that is because of the lively interest that so many Members have shown in the content of the various amendments in the group. Amendment 79 would leave out subsection (8) of clause 12. In a sense, this is a completely different topic from anything I have spoken about hitherto. I do not know whether everybody has looked at subsection (8), but it provides that
“A duty under this Act to publish a document may be complied with by publishing it on an internet site.”
I think that is wholly unsatisfactory. The issues raised in the Bill are far too important not to be the subject of physical, hard copy documents. Indeed, we have such documents before us today and they enable us to consider these issues and the amendments. I therefore think that hard copy documents relating to this very important issue should be available to individuals, organisations and businesses the length and breadth of the United Kingdom and that to publish such documents merely on an internet site would be a false economy.
Mr Nuttall
I completely agree with my hon. Friend. In view of the importance of this matter, can he assure me that that amendment will be pushed to a Division if it is not accepted?
Mr Chope
I cannot assure my hon. Friend about that, because there are a large number of amendments in this group and, ultimately, it is within the discretion of the person in the Chair—in this case the Deputy Speaker—to decide how many amendments he is prepared to allow a Division on. However, the point that my hon. Friend makes about this is very—
Mr Ellwood
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I seek your guidance. Can you make a judgment on Standing Order No. 37—the Golding closure— please?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Mr. Chope, you are such a magnanimous Member.
Mr Davey
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.
I should like to speak to the lead amendment in this group, amendment 59, which seeks to turn the Bill into a summer time extension Bill by changing the dates on which summer time ends. I think that the hon. Member for Christchurch realises that that would not be compatible with the EU directive on summer time arrangements, which has been in force for many years. The House might wish to reflect—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Mr Chope, as a long-serving Member of the House, you know, as I do, that it is up to the Minister whether he gives way or not.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
As always, my hon. Friend makes a wise and pertinent intervention.
There has been one occasion in history on which daylight was extended. Those hon. Members who are up on their Bible will remember their studies from their student days. They will recall the book of Joshua, chapter 10, verse 13:
“And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven and hastened not to go down about a whole day.”
That is really what amendment 59 is all about. It is about accepting what verse 14 goes on to say, which is that that happened only once; it was a once-in-a-lifetime occurrence. God allowed the sun to stand still in the heavens on that day only, and never again.
There is absolutely nothing that we can do about that. No great Act of Parliament or—dare I say it—regulation from the European Union can create more daylight. We are therefore faced with a simple choice in the winter. Do we get up in the dark and have teatime when it is a bit brighter, or do we have murky, dank, dark mornings—I am sorry, I meant that the other way round. Do we instead get up with a spring in our step and go to work with enthusiasm, full of beans and ready to face the world, and sacrifice a little bit of daylight at teatime?
In seeking to leave us on summer time, my hon. Friend’s amendment would allow all the supposed advantages to be investigated, including having an extra hour of daylight in the evenings so that people could have their barbecues and all that sort of thing, but it would not upset the mornings. That is particularly important for our friends in Scotland, which is why I want to mention amendment 23.
Mr Chope
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his support for my amendment 59. Did he notice that, when the Minister made his very brief response to my amendment, he completely misrepresented the effect that it would have? He suggested that it would alter the date on which summer time came to an end, and thereby cause problems with the European Union. He was wrong about that.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
There is another amendment, tabled by other hon. Members, that would have that effect. I take my hon. Friend’s very valid point, however. He was not proposing to change the dates on which summer time comes into force.
Mr Reid
Yes, the hon. Gentleman makes an important point, which answers well the point made by the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami), who has left the Chamber and did not stay to hear that response. We would be giving the Welsh Assembly a right that they would not have to exercise.
Mr Chope
Does my hon. Friend share my concern that we could have consulted the Scottish people if the Bill had been allowed to proceed immediately after its Second Reading, as it could have been debated in the House prior to the Scottish election? The coalition Government decided not to allow the Bill to proceed until after that election. Does he think that was rather a cynical exercise by the Government?
Mr Reid
I had better not express any view on the Government’s actions. I know they took nearly a year to bring forward the money resolution, but I shall merely comment on that in passing without expressing any view about motive. I always prefer to talk about the facts and not to ascribe motives.
Because of the geography of the United Kingdom and the effect that that has on when daylight occurs, it is important that the trial has support throughout the United Kingdom. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all both further north and further west than Greenwich. Being north of Greenwich means that we get fewer hours of daylight in the winter than Greenwich, and it is vital to make the maximum use of those few valuable daylight hours. Being west of Greenwich means that the sun rises and sets later than at Greenwich. The combined effect of being further north and further west means that sunrise is a lot later, and this Bill would make it a further hour later.
Although most of the United Kingdom is west of Greenwich, some parts are east of it. If the clocks were advanced by an hour, the difference in the east of the country between the time on the clock and the natural time—or pre-railway time as the hon. Member for North East Somerset would describe it—would be less than an hour. However, in the parts of the United Kingdom west of Greenwich the time difference would be more than an hour—significantly more in some places. That is why it is extremely important that the trial should have the support of all parts of the United Kingdom.
I was at school during the previous trial and I have a vivid memory of watching a beautiful winter sunrise from the physics lab at school, but then realising that it was nearly 10 o’clock and just how ridiculous it was for the sun to be rising about two hours before midday.
Mr Reid
No. As the hon. Member for North East Somerset said, there are limits to the powers even of the House or of the European Union. The basic laws of physics and astronomy have not changed in the past 40 years. The sun will still rise at the same time on the equivalent day of the year.
I shall give an example from my constituency. On the Isle of Tiree, if the change were made, it would be 10 am before the sun rose in the middle of winter. Further north and west, the sunrise would be even later—at 10.10 am in Stornoway and later still on the Isle of Unst in the Shetlands. To contrast that with Westminster, here even in the depths of winter the sun would rise at 9.4 am. That is more than an hour before it would rise in the northerly and westerly parts of the country. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris) refers to the time the sun rises at present. Sunrise now is at 8.4 am; it would be 9.4 am with the proposed change.
Mr Reid
I am grateful for that intervention. I am sorry the hon. Gentleman misunderstood the point that I was trying to make. Even in the depths of winter, sunrise here in London would be at 9.4 am. Because there is a period of twilight before sunrise and after sunset, children going to school in London even in the depths of winter would still be going in half-light, which is the present situation in Scotland. If the change were made, children in London would go to school in the half-light, but children in Scotland would go to school in complete pitch blackness, and it is important to remember that in country areas there are no street lights, so it would literally be pitch black when those children were going to school. At present even in the depths of winter in Scotland, children go to school in the twilight, but the Bill would make them do that in pitch blackness.
Mr Chope
Does my hon. Friend accept that, in effect, the promoter of the Bill concedes the points that he makes? What is proposed is that there should be two different time zones in the United Kingdom—one for Scotland, if people there wanted to keep things as they are now, and a different one for the rest of the United Kingdom. Does my hon. Friend not think that is absurd?
Mr Reid
It would indeed be absurd to have two different time zones within the United Kingdom. Hon. Members representing places such as Berwick and Carlisle would probably agree. I do not think there is any possibility of the Bill allowing that to happen, but it would be silly if it did.
I turn now to the road accident statistics. The surveys that took place at the time of the previous trial 40 years ago were inconclusive. That is not just my opinion. That was the view of the Home Secretary at the time, Reginald Maudling, who said:
“The figures are not clear enough to base a decision upon.”—[Official Report, 2 December 1970; Vol. 807, c. 1335.]
The reason for that is that the breathalyser was introduced at the same time, and there is no way of knowing how much of the fall in road accidents was due to the introduction of the breathalyser. If the fall had been due to the clock going forward an hour, once the experiment was abandoned and we went back to Greenwich mean time in winter, one would have expected the number of road accidents to increase. But that did not happen; it continued to fall. It has continued to fall simply because we design cars better, we have better road traffic legislation and we educate drivers better.
Mr Reid
My hon. Friend makes an important point. That is why the Home Secretary of the day concluded that the result was inconclusive.
I tabled amendment 14 to attempt a compromise. My concern is about the dark mornings in my constituency in the depths of winter that will result from the Bill. Passing the amendment would allow the investigatory body to look at other options. My preference would be to bring forward the spring clock change to the middle of February. The October clock change is at the right time because there are eight weeks before the shortest day. Logically, if there were eight weeks in the other direction, the clocks would go forward in the middle of February. The importance of that is that we would avoid the dark winter mornings, but still have the benefit of lighter evenings in March.
Other amendments give specific days for the change of the clocks, but mine is the most suitable because it would allow the investigating committee some flexibility. I realise that it would breach the European directive, so the Government could not make that change even if the investigatory group recommended it unless the EU changed the directive. However, it would be an important addition to the Bill to allow the investigatory group to consider the possibility of moving the clocks forward at an earlier date. If its investigations and consultations showed that that was the right move to make, the Minister could be sent to Brussels to try to negotiate a change in the European directive. I am sure that similar issues must arise in the rest of Europe, so that is an option that amendment 14 would leave open
Mr Chope
I understand my hon. Friend’s point, but does he share my concern that his amendment is in danger of resulting in the perfect being the enemy of the good? His amendment is perfectly rational, but the reality is that the pressure to have harmonisation of clock changes across Europe is such that the alternative proposal that I put forward would be better than nothing, although not as good as his. Does he agree that my proposal just to extend British summer time and leaving GMT as it is should also be an option available to the committee?
Mr Reid
I think that you would rule me out of order if I spoke to an amendment that had just been voted down, Mr Deputy Speaker.
My amendment would open up other options. The Bill already gives a veto to both Houses of this Parliament, as well as to the First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland. I believe that the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments should also have a veto before the trial goes ahead. Consulting the Ministers is not good enough; the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly must decide. I therefore commend amendment 13 to the House.
Mr MacNeil
The hon. Gentleman gives me a great opportunity to say that independence will be better than sliced bread.
Mr Chope
Has the hon. Gentleman seen this little postcard-sized piece of paper, which claims that the Bill would
“boost the economy, make the nation happier, save lives, save carbon”?
It goes on to say: “Save the date”. Is not that an example of the gross exaggeration that the supporters of the Bill are using in their tactics to get people to support it?
Mr MacNeil
The hon. Gentleman mentions the claim that the provisions would “make the nation happier”. As a result of information that I received from Portugal, it occurred to me yesterday that a measure of happiness might be a country’s divorce rate. So I got my researchers, Christopher Mullins-Silverstein and Xavier Solano, to approach the House of Commons Library and ask for the UK’s divorce rate figures during the trial period from 1968 to 1970. There was a small but significant spike in the divorce rate, which fell back down again after the trial period was over. I am not sure whether the divorce rate is an indicator of happiness—I suppose it could be argued either way—but it certainly went up at that time. Perhaps the morning irritability that I have mentioned was present at the breakfast tables of the United Kingdom, and perhaps it tipped a few people over—
Mr MacNeil
If the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), who advocated European harmonisation earlier, curbs his enthusiasm and goes to the ROSPA website, he will find that the month of November is the most dangerous month. It is by studying what ROSPA says that I have introduced the amendment.
Mr MacNeil
If the clocks were to change on St Andrew’s day, giving us an extra hour on that day, we might have a 25-hour St Andrew’s day, which would probably be welcome, and—who knows?—I might get some form of promotion from the Scottish Government owing to my initiative of introducing a longer, 25-hour St Andrew’s day.
I am looking for an opportunity, and the glass is half full. By extending this olive branch, I am presenting a half-full glass and an opportunity for the trial, with the other attendant benefits, but the concern that must be listened to most is the safety concern. It is not dealt with by the data, and it was certainly not dealt with by the graph after the trial in the 1970s. Indeed, the trial may have cost lives, so let us have only a three-month period of danger, rather than a 15-month one.
Mr Davey
No.
The Bill also provides for the devolved Executives to be consulted about any proposals to increase the trial period, and their views will be fully taken into account. The power to lengthen the trial will be available from the date of the report, and if the report indicated that a longer trial was necessary, that power could be exercised to lengthen the trial before the devolved Executives gave their view on whether to have a trial. That means that they would know then about the trial’s expected length, so the amendment that suggests otherwise misses the point.
Asking for reports from the First Ministers, as proposed in amendment 38, is neither necessary nor appropriate. The Secretary of State will monitor the effects of the order for the whole country, and is the person best placed to do so, but the First Ministers would, of course, be welcome to submit anything that they might wish for the Secretary of State to consider. It would not be appropriate for the House, through this Bill, to require any report from the First Ministers or to impose any costs on them. After all, they are devolved Administrations.
Mr Chope
Does my hon. Friend accept that an alternative way of dealing with this problem so far as Scotland is concerned would have been for the Government to have moved an amendment to the Scotland Bill, which is still going through the other place, to make this issue a devolved matter for Scotland in the same way as it is devolved for Northern Ireland?
Mr Nuttall
That would, indeed, have been one way of dealing with this matter.
Although I support amendment 30, I strongly oppose amendments 35 and 85. I am often in favour of the amendments of my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) and, indeed, those of my hon. Friends the Members for Christchurch (Mr Chope), for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) and for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), who tabled amendment 85. On this occasion, however, I am not in favour of their amendment, because I think we need a trial period of three years. If the trial is successful and the change proves to be of benefit and to achieve all that the Bill’s proponents say it will achieve, that will lead to a permanent change in our time system that will affect every person in the country. Given those circumstances, it is only fair and reasonable that the trial should be for a minimum of three years. So I would oppose amendments 35 and 85 and stick to the wording of clause 5(1), which provides that the trial period be three years.
Amendments 16 and 17 highlight the fact that even our time is a matter that the European Union has felt it necessary to interfere with, and it has done so by means of European directive 200/84/EC.
Philip Davies
I will try again with this group to persuade my hon. Friends of the merits of the amendments, the purpose of which is not to damage the Bill or prevent it from progressing, but to strengthen it. Lest anyone be in any doubt, some of the amendments in this group are similar to amendments in the previous group. I should make it clear that, as with the previous amendment that we have just voted on, if any of my amendments in this group were accepted at this late stage, I would be happy to support the Bill enthusiastically, because my amendments would, without doubt, strengthen the Bill. However, we have to deal with the Bill as it is and not base our decisions on the assurances that we have received from the Minister.
Amendment 44 would delete clause 9(1)(b). The clause relates to the end of the trial, and I have to say in passing that there seems to be a slight contradiction in the wording of the Bill—it may well just be a legalistic point. The clause is entitled “The end of the trial”, but the first sentence beneath the title states:
“The Secretary of State must, during the trial period, do one of the following”.
I was slightly confused about that, because it seems to give the Secretary of State the power to do one of the things listed at any point in the trial period, not just at the end as suggested by the clause title. Perhaps the Minister might be able to explain why that is the case.
Clause 9(1) states that the Secretary of State must do one of the things listed. The first is to make an order to abandon the trial—that makes sense. The second, in paragraph (b), is to make an order during the trial period to advance the time by one hour permanently. Given that the Bill regrettably does not contain the safeguards that I and other hon. Members sought in the previous group of amendments, I wish through amendment 44 to prevent the Secretary of State from making such an order. I do not believe that is appropriate without the safeguards that we have discussed previously, which I will discuss again under this group of amendments.
Amendment 46 relates to clause 9(3), which states:
“An order under subsection (2) is subject to negative resolution procedure.”
All the way through the Bill I have been pleased to see that each provision is subject to the affirmative procedure, but clause 9 appears to me to be the only part of the Bill that is subject to the negative procedure. The amendment is merely intended to change that to the affirmative procedure, which is standard in the rest of the Bill. Given that that procedure has been happily accepted in all other parts of the Bill, I would like to think that the House would be very happy to see it applied to clause 9 too.
The other amendments in this group that relate to clause 9 are amendments 73 to 75, which were tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope). I am sure that we all look forward to him speaking at great length about why he introduced them. It seems to me—I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong—that amendment 73 would simply delete clause 9(1)(c). He may well be able to explain why he felt that was so important.
Amendment 74 would delete clause 9(2). I must say that as ever, my hon. Friend was far more alert than me in seeking to do so. It appears to give the Secretary of State wide-ranging powers without any great safeguards. I suspect that is why he has sought to delete that subsection, but of course he may well have had better reasons than that. I am sure he will be able to tell us what they were.
Amendment 75 would delete clause 9(3), which is the subsection setting out that the clause is subject to the negative resolution procedure. My hon. Friend may well have wanted it deleted because he, too, was unhappy with that. I would like to think that my amendment 46 would make his amendment 75 redundant.
Mr Chope
I hope to have the chance to address my amendments, but I will say now that the reason for amendment 75 is that it is consequential on my amendment 74. If amendment 74 succeeded and subsection (2) were left out, there would not be any need for the provisions of subsection (3).
Philip Davies
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I am pleased that he has cleared that up.
I am afraid that, through no fault of my own, time is pressing, so we do not have much time to go through these amendments or give them the kind of scrutiny that they deserve—but I shall press on. Amendment 48 would delete clause 11, which gives the Secretary of State the power permanently to advance the time by one hour. I seek to delete the clause partly for the reason that I gave earlier. Given that the amendments in the previous group were not accepted, we should not be giving the Secretary of State this power based on a trial period that I do not think has adequate safeguards built into it. To be helpful, however, I tabled amendment 51 to get around that problem. If it were accepted by the Minister and the promoter of the Bill, I would be satisfied and perfectly happy to support the Bill, because it would provide adequate safeguards.
That touches on amendment 15, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), which is similar to his amendment 13 in the previous group. Amendment 51, too, relates to the power to advance time by one hour permanently and not just for the trial period. If we are to do it permanently, it is not only important to obtain the agreement of the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland but essential to obtain the agreement of the Scottish and Welsh First Ministers. To go ahead with a permanent time change without obtaining the agreement of the First Ministers would fatally undermine the future of the United Kingdom. We cannot be seen to railroad the people of Scotland and Wales into something that might be against their wishes and hope that the United Kingdom will stay together. Clearly, it would no longer be sustainable. Whether people thought it appropriate to obtain the agreement of the Scottish or Welsh First Ministers for a trial period is one thing—that is what we voted on in the previous group of amendments—but it must be clear to everybody that if we believe in the United Kingdom, we must obtain that agreement before permanently changing the arrangement. That is what my amendment 51 would do.
My hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute has taken a different tack, as he has done throughout. His amendment 15 would do pretty much the same as mine, except that he seeks to obtain the agreement of the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly rather than just the Scottish and Welsh First Ministers. I would be satisfied with either amendment. In fact, I prefer his amendment. I think that the requirement to get the agreement of the Parliament or Assembly as a whole would provide a much better safeguard than the obligation to seek only the agreement of the First Minister. I commend him for having come up with a far better amendment than mine, and I am happy to fall on my sword to pursue his agenda.
Amendments 20 and 21 have been tabled by our friends from the Scottish National party, the hon. Members for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) and for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford). If I read the amendments correctly—I am sure that they will correct me, if I am wrong—they seek to do exactly what I and my hon. Friend seek in our amendments: to put in place extra safeguards for the consultation of Scotland and Wales. Of the 11 amendments in this group, therefore, four or five would have the same effect. As for the future of the Bill, I must emphasise that it cannot progress unless we make it abundantly clear that we have the endorsement of people in Scotland and Wales, and not just through a consultation, which is what it provides for at the moment. People who are consulted can then simply be ignored. That is totally and utterly unacceptable.