Daylight Saving Bill

David Nuttall Excerpts

Friday 20th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Chope]

The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful and persuasive point—one that I must admit I had not considered. He makes a worthwhile addition to our deliberations on this aspect of the Bill.

Before moving on to other amendments in the group, I urge the Minister to give his unqualified support to Government research on the potential costs and benefits of my proposal in the event of this Bill not reaching the statute book this Session. The Government do not need legislation or even the authority of the House to prepare a report. I have noted a certain reluctance on the part of the Government to engage in the lively debate consequent on the introduction of this Bill. If the Government are supportive of the Bill, as amended at their insistence in Committee, why have they not already produced or started work on producing a report from experts? I shall not be rude to the Government by suggesting that they have been sitting on the fence and wanting to have it both ways. That is not my nature, but I think that the Government and the Minister have to answer a number of questions about this matter.

At the behest of my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), let me turn briefly to some of the other amendments in the group. Amendment 58, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) and others, picks up a concern articulated in Committee that the Bill’s proposals could impact particularly adversely on faith communities. The amendment would require the Secretary of State to have specific regard to

“the interests and concerns of the principal faith communities”

in the UK. It seems a perfectly sensible amendment to me, as I would expect any amendment by my hon. Friend to be. If amendment 59 were carried, however, I believe that many of the concerns of faith communities such as Orthodox Jews would be addressed in any case because their concerns are centred principally around having darker mornings rather than lighter summer evenings. I recognise that amendment 59 would not satisfy amateur astronomers who would have to stay up even later to get a good view of the stars, but it would address the concerns underlying amendment 58.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

In fact, many astronomical phenomena take place early in the morning, so it might not be so clear cut for astronomers as my hon. Friend believes.

[Mr Chope]

Again, my hon. Friend makes the point well, based on his experience—I am sorry that I do not have any experience of stargazing in the early mornings.

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[Mr Chope]

The expression might have been used by that distinguished former leader of our country during wartime, but we know that in a wartime atmosphere people sometimes use expressions that are designed to raise morale but that might not be 100% in line with the English language. If that was what happened, and I have no reason to doubt my hon. Friend, that is probably what caused Sir Winston Churchill to lapse into that sort of language, which is not appropriate in legislation. I do not think my hon. Friend is suggesting that Sir Winston Churchill had that language incorporated in a piece of legislation.

That brings me to a group of 11 amendments that are identical to amendment 67, but I would be trying the patience of the House if I did anything other than say that those amendments—to lines 23, 28, 32, 36 and 40 of clause 4, to line 10 of clause 5, to lines 12 and 19 of clause 6, to line 34 of clause 8, to line 25 of clause 11 and to line 2 of clause 14—all change the wording from “daylight saving” to “summertime extension”.

Amendment 72 in clause 9, line 4, would delete “time” and insert “summertime”. Clause 9 addresses what happens at the end of any trial period, and the amendment would give the Secretary of State the option of advancing summer time by one hour permanently.

Amendment 61, in my name and those of my hon. Friends the Members for Wellingborough and for Gainsborough, in clause 12, page 4, line 35, would leave out subsection (1). Clause 12 is the interpretation clause and subsection (1) defines what is meant by the expression

“advancing the time for general purposes in the United Kingdom”.

That is an extraordinary expression to incorporate in a piece of legislation. Clause 12 says that it means adding one hour to Greenwich mean time in the winter and one hour to summer time in the summer. As I hope is apparent from my introductory remarks, I regard adding an hour to Greenwich mean time in the winter as unacceptable—hence my amendment.

Amendment 79 is the last amendment to which I need to speak in the Chamber. [Interruption.] I hear people saying, “Hear, Hear,” and I agree. It has taken much longer to discuss this group of amendments than I expected, but that is because of the lively interest that so many Members have shown in the content of the various amendments in the group. Amendment 79 would leave out subsection (8) of clause 12. In a sense, this is a completely different topic from anything I have spoken about hitherto. I do not know whether everybody has looked at subsection (8), but it provides that

“A duty under this Act to publish a document may be complied with by publishing it on an internet site.”

I think that is wholly unsatisfactory. The issues raised in the Bill are far too important not to be the subject of physical, hard copy documents. Indeed, we have such documents before us today and they enable us to consider these issues and the amendments. I therefore think that hard copy documents relating to this very important issue should be available to individuals, organisations and businesses the length and breadth of the United Kingdom and that to publish such documents merely on an internet site would be a false economy.

[Mr Nuttall]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. In view of the importance of this matter, can he assure me that that amendment will be pushed to a Division if it is not accepted?

[Mr Chope]

I cannot assure my hon. Friend about that, because there are a large number of amendments in this group and, ultimately, it is within the discretion of the person in the Chair—in this case the Deputy Speaker—to decide how many amendments he is prepared to allow a Division on. However, the point that my hon. Friend makes about this is very—

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[Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)]

claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36), but the Deputy Speaker withheld his assent and declined to put that Question.

[Mr Nuttall]

I will not detain the House for long, Mr Deputy Speaker. We have had a long debate already on this group of amendments and I am conscious that a closure motion has already been requested, but I want to deal with some specific amendments in this group. Before I do so, let me reiterate the thanks I expressed to my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) when the House considered the money resolution. She has shown exemplary courtesy and great determination to ensure that the Bill got to this stage. As I said in that debate, although I did not vote to curtail debate on Second Reading, I supported the Bill on Second Reading and I intend to vote today for amendments that will strengthen the Bill and help it to achieve its objectives. I appreciate that many people would like a trial to take place and I take cognisance of that regardless of my personal views about whether it is a good or bad thing permanently to change the time in this country.

Leaving aside for the moment lead amendment 13, because my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) has indicated that he is prepared to accept what the Minister has said about it, I hope that we will be given the opportunity to divide on amendment 30. At a time when the whole question of Scottish independence is rising up the political agenda in a way that it never has before, some of the Bill’s provisions seem somewhat perverse. I can well imagine separatists in Scotland seizing on clause 4(4), which clearly treats Scotland, and indeed Wales, differently from Northern Ireland. I see no reason why we should not accept amendment 30 so that agreement is required from the First Ministers of Scotland and Wales.

[Mr Chope]

Does my hon. Friend accept that an alternative way of dealing with this problem so far as Scotland is concerned would have been for the Government to have moved an amendment to the Scotland Bill, which is still going through the other place, to make this issue a devolved matter for Scotland in the same way as it is devolved for Northern Ireland?

[Mr Nuttall]

That would, indeed, have been one way of dealing with this matter.

Although I support amendment 30, I strongly oppose amendments 35 and 85. I am often in favour of the amendments of my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) and, indeed, those of my hon. Friends the Members for Christchurch (Mr Chope), for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) and for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), who tabled amendment 85. On this occasion, however, I am not in favour of their amendment, because I think we need a trial period of three years. If the trial is successful and the change proves to be of benefit and to achieve all that the Bill’s proponents say it will achieve, that will lead to a permanent change in our time system that will affect every person in the country. Given those circumstances, it is only fair and reasonable that the trial should be for a minimum of three years. So I would oppose amendments 35 and 85 and stick to the wording of clause 5(1), which provides that the trial period be three years.

Amendments 16 and 17 highlight the fact that even our time is a matter that the European Union has felt it necessary to interfere with, and it has done so by means of European directive 200/84/EC.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

Why does the hon. Gentleman feel obliged to bring anti-Europeanism into everything? I do not think the directive was opposed by the UK; I think the UK was one of the key supporters of a directive, so why suggest that it was forced upon us by Europe?

[Mr Nuttall]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. My view is that we should not be told what to do on any matter by the European Union. I have a very clear view on such matters. Many people in this country are not aware of the existence of the directive or of its effect. It is another example of the way in which the tentacles of the European Union extend into areas of life into which many people do not realise they extend.

There will be difficulty in ever achieving the aims of amendments 16 or 17, but in any event I think we should stick to the existing arrangement for changing the clocks in March and October, despite the fact that that it means that my birthday is fairly often affected by the change in the clocks in the springtime when, as I think is the case this year, we jump on one hour and I lose an hour of my birthday.

It has been suggested that amendment 38 would result in extra costs being incurred. I am not so sure that it would. I strongly support the amendment. All it calls for are reports from the First Ministers of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. They could simply write a brief letter saying, “Yes, we have considered the matter and everything is in order. There is no need to consult us any further.” Amendment 38 is sound and it would be sensible for it to receive the support of the House and be included in the Bill.

I oppose amendment 40. As I said about clause 5, in view of the importance of the matter, it makes sense to have a trial period of an appropriate length. If an increase in the length of the trial period is necessary, so be it. Let us have that increase.

[Philip Davies]

That is a perfectly respectable view for my hon. Friend to hold, although I might disagree. The question is about the basis on which we decide that we need a further period of trial. We seem to be leaving it to the Government and the Secretary of State to decide. We surely cannot have that, or the trial will be extended endlessly, which surreptitiously makes it a permanent fixture.

[Mr Nuttall]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, but I notice that clause 8(4) states:

“An order under this section is subject to affirmative resolution procedure”,

so there would be some democratic oversight of the use of the power, which most people would find satisfactory.

Those are my thoughts and that is how I will be voting.

[Mr Knight]

again claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

The House proceeded to a Division.