Daylight Saving Bill

Mark Lazarowicz Excerpts

Friday 20th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Reid]

I shall speak to amendment 13, which I view as an important and key amendment. It would mean that the trial could not proceed unless it had the support of every part of the United Kingdom. The Bill says that the trial cannot proceed without the support of the House of Commons, the House of Lords,

“the First Minister and deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland”.

Unionists and nationalists in Northern Ireland effectively have a veto on this Bill. When it comes to other parts of the United Kingdom like Scotland and Wales, however, the Secretary of State has only to

“consult the Scottish…and the Welsh Ministers.”

He does not need to obtain their agreement; all he has to do is consult them.

Other amendments would require the Secretary of State to obtain the consent of Governments and Ministers in Scotland and Wales, but it is always important to remember that it is Parliaments and Assemblies, not Governments, that are elected to represent the people. In some cases, like Wales currently, a minority Government might be in power.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

The hon. Gentleman and I probably have different views on the substance of the Bill—many of the constituents who got in touch with me support it and I certainly hope it goes forward to the stage when a review and investigation can be carried out on the options—but does he agree that one way of dealing with the concerns raised in Scotland would be precisely to adopt his amendment? That is why I shall support it if a Division is called on it.

[Mr Reid]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his support. He makes the important point that the debate on the amendment is not about the substance of the Bill, but about whose consent should be required for it. I hope that hon. Members from all parts of the United Kingdom will support the amendment. Wherever an hon. Member comes from, I hope they will agree that a measure like this, which will have different effects on different parts of the UK, is so important that it should go forward only if it has the support of every part of the UK.

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[Mr Reid]

I have no doubt that they are, and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is on much more intimate terms with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in Scotland than I am. My relationship with them seems to involve exchanging letters, whereby they disagree with almost everything that I put to them. However, that is probably digressing a fair bit.

It is important to remember that getting a resolution through a Parliament requires the support of a majority of the Members of that Parliament, whereas Governments can be minority Governments. The First Minister in Scotland currently leads a majority Government, but the First Minister in Wales leads a minority Government, so it would be perfectly possible for the First Minister in Wales to support the Bill but for the majority of Welsh Assembly Members to oppose it. That is why it is very important that Parliaments and Assemblies decide, rather than Ministers, and why I specified the “Scottish Parliament” and the “Welsh Assembly” in my amendment, rather than Governments. Other amendments before us today would give this power to the devolved Administrations, and the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) discussed an amendment in Committee that would have given the power to Scotland’s First Minister or to the Scottish Government. Obviously, as a member of the same party as the First Minister, he might be happy with that approach, but my preference would be for the whole Parliament to make the decision.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

It may well be that by the time the order is presented by the Secretary of State here people will have had enough experience of a Scottish National party majority Government in Scotland to have replaced it after the next Scottish elections.

[Mr Reid]

I share the hon. Gentleman’s view that that is likely to happen in 2016, but the time scale in the Bill is that the decision on whether to proceed to the trial will have to take place before then. However, the next group of amendments relates to what happens after the trial, and the happy circumstances that the hon. Gentleman describes may well have occurred by then and we may well be back to a minority Government in Scotland.

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[Mr MacNeil]

If the clocks were to change on St Andrew’s day, giving us an extra hour on that day, we might have a 25-hour St Andrew’s day, which would probably be welcome, and—who knows?—I might get some form of promotion from the Scottish Government owing to my initiative of introducing a longer, 25-hour St Andrew’s day.

I am looking for an opportunity, and the glass is half full. By extending this olive branch, I am presenting a half-full glass and an opportunity for the trial, with the other attendant benefits, but the concern that must be listened to most is the safety concern. It is not dealt with by the data, and it was certainly not dealt with by the graph after the trial in the 1970s. Indeed, the trial may have cost lives, so let us have only a three-month period of danger, rather than a 15-month one.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

I have tried to take all the amendments seriously and at face value. However, I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that it is odd for his party, which is so keen on the European Union, as indeed am I, to want the change of time to take place on a different date from that in the rest of the European Union, which, as we have heard, decided on a common date for changing time, following the example of the UK.

[Mr MacNeil]

I hear the hon. Gentleman’s concern, but he is again looking for difficulties, whereas I look for opportunities and solutions in life. As I have said, I do not think that European Union directives should be seen as commandments. Surely it is not beyond the wit of man for European Union directives, which were constructed in a room by individuals, to be amended or improved. Surely the point of European directives—although perhaps experience shows otherwise—is that they should aid and improve our lives. If a European directive is causing difficulty in our lives, we should ask our Government to go to Europe to change it. We could then test out this measure and have some resolution. Rather than having 15 months of misery, changing the European directive could make the period shorter.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

The issue is not with a European directive. The fact is that the time difference between Scotland and the rest of the UK and Europe would change in October, and then travel and airline times would change again a month later. This is about the inconvenience for travellers, not about a directive or matters of principle.

[Mr MacNeil]

When the hon. Gentleman mentions Europe, perhaps he should consider a comparison between Paris and London, which are reasonably close to each other geographically. Paris has lighter evenings, but it has a higher accident rate. The factor of daylight does not appear to be the overriding factor in road safety; there are many other factors. The point is made time and again that the extra hour of daylight will be a panacea for road traffic deaths.

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[Mark Lazarowicz]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman on this point. It is not separatists who say that they want to give more powers within the existing devolution settlement to the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly, and therefore I hope that his amendment is successful.

[Philip Davies]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his support, and I am pleased that he accepts that I am trying to entrench the Union and make people in Scotland and Wales feel more part of it.

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[Mark Lazarowicz]

Why does the hon. Gentleman feel obliged to bring anti-Europeanism into everything? I do not think the directive was opposed by the UK; I think the UK was one of the key supporters of a directive, so why suggest that it was forced upon us by Europe?

[Mr Nuttall]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. My view is that we should not be told what to do on any matter by the European Union. I have a very clear view on such matters. Many people in this country are not aware of the existence of the directive or of its effect. It is another example of the way in which the tentacles of the European Union extend into areas of life into which many people do not realise they extend.

There will be difficulty in ever achieving the aims of amendments 16 or 17, but in any event I think we should stick to the existing arrangement for changing the clocks in March and October, despite the fact that that it means that my birthday is fairly often affected by the change in the clocks in the springtime when, as I think is the case this year, we jump on one hour and I lose an hour of my birthday.

It has been suggested that amendment 38 would result in extra costs being incurred. I am not so sure that it would. I strongly support the amendment. All it calls for are reports from the First Ministers of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. They could simply write a brief letter saying, “Yes, we have considered the matter and everything is in order. There is no need to consult us any further.” Amendment 38 is sound and it would be sensible for it to receive the support of the House and be included in the Bill.

I oppose amendment 40. As I said about clause 5, in view of the importance of the matter, it makes sense to have a trial period of an appropriate length. If an increase in the length of the trial period is necessary, so be it. Let us have that increase.