Daylight Saving Bill

Tom Harris Excerpts

Friday 20th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Chope]

Absolutely, Mr Speaker, and of course the other amendments in this group.

I believe that the original proposals in the Bill were contentious, divisive and essentially selfish. The rewriting of the Bill in Committee, at the behest of the Government, has made it clear that we can have only one time zone in the United Kingdom, which I think is a welcome measure of support for the Union. However, the Bill’s Achilles heel is that it has been redrafted in such a way that it would enable the United Kingdom Government to change the time zone in Scotland without the consent of the Scottish Parliament. We know that the Scottish Parliament, and MPs representing Scottish constituencies, do not support a change that would make winter mornings in Scotland even colder and darker than they are already.

[Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)]

For the record, I am here this morning to support the hon. Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris), and I spoke in a general debate in favour of the change the year before last.

[Mr Chope]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for putting his support for the Bill on the record, but I am sure he is not suggesting that his view is shared by all his colleagues from Scotland.

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[Mr Tom Harris]

The hon. Gentleman is making the point that evidence should be discarded and the personal opinions of individual Members should be set on a higher level. Is he not in favour of evidence-based policy making? The Bill would allow the evidence for or against a change to be seen after a trial period. If the result of the trial was that my constituents were going to be put in greater danger, of course I would oppose a permanent change at the end of the trial. Is he not in the same position?

[Mr Chope]

My difficulty is that there is nothing to prevent the Government from commissioning an inquiry and getting the evidence that would enable the hon. Gentleman to reach a decision on this contentious issue. I cannot understand why, if the Government support the Bill, they have not already embarked on getting a body of evidence together. That evidence could then be presented to the House and we could decide whether we thought, in the light of that evidence, that we should make any changes to the clocks. I will refer to that in a bit more detail later.

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[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

There is another amendment, tabled by other hon. Members, that would have that effect. I take my hon. Friend’s very valid point, however. He was not proposing to change the dates on which summer time comes into force.

[Mr Tom Harris]

I am enjoying the hon. Gentleman’s contribution, although I am disappointed that he is being rather flippant about such a serious issue. He has mentioned the sacrifice of a spring in our step as we get up in the morning, as though that is the only sacrifice to be made. I am slightly more concerned about the number of road accidents in my constituency and throughout Scotland. The sacrifice of people’s lives and health and the level of their injuries are slightly more important than whether we get up from our beds with a spring in our step.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I have the greatest respect for the hon. Gentleman and, had I thought that he would welcome it, I would have supported his candidacy for the Labour leadership in Scotland. I kept very quiet about that, however, because I thought that I might do him more harm than good.

As has been pointed out by other Members, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), it is easy to argue about such statistics. Given the general trend in the reduction in the number of casualties on the roads, the arguments are not as straightforwardly causal as some suggest.

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[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

Of course we should take into account the views of the whole country, but the real problems come in some of the furthest-flung parts that are the most remote from us in Westminster, where people’s livelihoods may require them to get up earlier in the morning.

At one point, I felt that much of the Bill was aimed at lie-abeds—those who do not get up very early in the morning, but snooze on, remaining fast asleep in a relaxed and happy way. Many people get up in the winter at times when it would be dark not only until they had got up, had their breakfast, shaved and so forth, but by the time they had reached the office, even if they had quite long commuting times. All those people are being ignored.

I return to the issue of the Union. What we need—and amendment 23 represents this—is a clear view of the effects that the Bill would have in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales as well as in London.

[Mr Tom Harris]

At the risk of extending the hon. Gentleman’s speech, may I point out that he is pursuing a false path by suggesting that the Bill is in some way anti-Scottish—that it is somehow against the interests of Scotland? I support it because I, as a Scottish MP, believe that it will benefit my constituents and my compatriots in Scotland. It is ridiculous, and very dangerous, to conjure up some kind of false division, or false sense of grievance. The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) is very good at that, but the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) should be very careful about going down the same path. This is not about Scotland versus England; it is about considering the evidence for a case for improving the lives of people throughout our nation.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I am very interested by what the hon. Gentleman says, but if it were simply a case of looking for the evidence, the Government could do that anyway. The Government produce Green Papers, White Papers and discussion documents, and set up inquiries that publish reports. If every one of those required a private Member’s Bill to be passed by the House, we would be saved a large number of inquiries.

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[Mr Reid]

I voted against the hon. Gentleman’s amendment to the Scotland Bill and I am still opposed to any amendment that would lead to different times in Scotland and England, simply because if a matter is devolved to Scotland, members of the Government here are perfectly entitled to consider only England when debating and voting on such matters. When something is a reserved matter and applies throughout the United Kingdom, I hope that all Members of the House will take into account all parts of the country.

[Mr Tom Harris]

Is it not the case that the hon. Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) and the Government have gone to great lengths to ensure that Scotland is protected and that that protection and consideration for Scottish concerns would be completely wiped out in the case of independence, which would mean that England would be able to change its hours without any reference at all to Scotland, with all the negative effects that would have on trade between Scotland and England?

[Mr Reid]

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. If the referendum proposed by the SNP in Scotland were to succeed, Scotland would have no say about the time in England. If the clock was moved forward by an hour in England, the situation to which I referred earlier would arise and the Scottish Government and Parliament would be presented with a fait accompli.

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[Mr Reid]

I have not spoken to anybody in Wales, but I have spoken to plenty of people in Scotland. It is very important that we have devolution throughout the United Kingdom and I think Welsh Members would have been far more likely to complain had I tabled an amendment that simply gave the Scottish Parliament the right to a vote and not the Welsh Assembly. That would have meant more complaints from Welsh Members.

[Mr Tom Harris]

Further to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami), I note that the hon. Gentleman is daily in touch with Welsh Members of this House. What discussions has he had with them, if not with the Welsh Assembly Government?

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[Mr Reid]

No. As the hon. Member for North East Somerset said, there are limits to the powers even of the House or of the European Union. The basic laws of physics and astronomy have not changed in the past 40 years. The sun will still rise at the same time on the equivalent day of the year.

I shall give an example from my constituency. On the Isle of Tiree, if the change were made, it would be 10 am before the sun rose in the middle of winter. Further north and west, the sunrise would be even later—at 10.10 am in Stornoway and later still on the Isle of Unst in the Shetlands. To contrast that with Westminster, here even in the depths of winter the sun would rise at 9.4 am. That is more than an hour before it would rise in the northerly and westerly parts of the country. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris) refers to the time the sun rises at present. Sunrise now is at 8.4 am; it would be 9.4 am with the proposed change.

[Mr Tom Harris]

I am sorry to delay the hon. Gentleman. I was making the point, albeit from a sedentary position, that the time difference between sunrise in one part of the country and another will always be the same. He was trying to imply that changing the clocks would somehow reduce the gap between the time that the sun rises in the south and in the north.

[Mr Reid]

I am grateful for that intervention. I am sorry the hon. Gentleman misunderstood the point that I was trying to make. Even in the depths of winter, sunrise here in London would be at 9.4 am. Because there is a period of twilight before sunrise and after sunset, children going to school in London even in the depths of winter would still be going in half-light, which is the present situation in Scotland. If the change were made, children in London would go to school in the half-light, but children in Scotland would go to school in complete pitch blackness, and it is important to remember that in country areas there are no street lights, so it would literally be pitch black when those children were going to school. At present even in the depths of winter in Scotland, children go to school in the twilight, but the Bill would make them do that in pitch blackness.

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[Mr MacNeil]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris). It is rare indeed for a Back Bencher’s Bill to get so far up the parliamentary chain, and she has shown great grace and courtesy in my dealings with her on this issue. Her Bill has perhaps made such progress with the help of the Government, but it is none the less quite an accomplishment. Having said that, I will continue to subject it to intense scrutiny.

I believe that, when people experience the clock change, the head of steam raised by a small but dedicated campaign group will be dramatically outweighed. The 1970 Division in the House was passed by 366 votes to 81, and as I have said, that involved Members not only from Scotland and the SNP but from the north of England and everywhere else. Further south, Portugal has changed back after two experiments. We are in real danger of slipping much further with this; our guard might go down, and we might subject people to an uncomfortable winter.

Having spoken to representatives of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents I tabled an amendment to deal with its concerns about safety, although I do not agree with some of its interpretations. However, if tabling the amendment will put the matter to rest, it is worth doing.

My concerns about the clock change are vast. I remain unconvinced about the potential benefits, and the losses are proven. Many of my concerns are based on the data provided by the Lighter Later campaign, which argues that an extra hour of sunlight at the end of the day would be a panacea for the UK’s problems. It claims that people would go outside more, consume less electricity, watch less television, eat better, sleep better, run and swim more, commit fewer crimes, be less afraid to go outside, spend countless billions on tourism and be involved in fewer car accidents. Those projections do not stand up to scrutiny at all, although the change is presented as the greatest thing since sliced bread—

[Mr Harris]

It sounds like independence.

[Mr MacNeil]

The hon. Gentleman gives me a great opportunity to say that independence will be better than sliced bread.

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November is more dangerous than the darker months of December and January, and that says quite a lot about the darkness argument, but with November being the most dangerous month why do we not change just one month? We would commit ourselves, therefore, to three months of trials rather than 15 months. It might be an inconvenience during November, but as a result we would have a better December, January and February.

[Mr Tom Harris]

The hon. Gentleman shows a welcome, if surprising, flexibility, but does he not concede the principle of the Bill, which is to have a trial period to gather evidence? If he does concede that, we are really arguing only about periods of time, and surely a longer period will enable us to gather more evidence on which to make a long-term decision.

[Mr MacNeil]

I say that we should have a series of Novembers. As I have said, I am a conciliatory man, and I have extended an olive branch. Rather than plunge areas of the country north of Manchester into darkness for two months a year, with no sunrise before 9 am, I say, okay, there is an ongoing argument for gathering data, so let us gather data in November, the most dangerous month, instead of over five months of winter and for 15 months in total. We could reduce the inconvenience to 20%, and I am fairly confident that, once we introduce those three months, once we have the attendant misery and once we see what comes of that, lighter evenings will not be seen to have such great benefits after all. We will get the taste of the inconvenience without going through the utter misery of an entire winter period.

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[Philip Davies]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will press on, as I am sure you and others would wish me to do.

If the intention of my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point and the Minister is to get agreement from Scotland and Wales before a trial goes ahead, I fail to see any possible objection to making that clear in the Bill. The Minister said that he had made progress with the Bill in a way that maximised consensus. As far as I can see, consensus can win out. All it needs is for my hon. Friend and the Minister to say that they will accept my amendment so that

“agreement from the Scottish First Minister and the First Minister of Wales”

is obtained before a trial goes ahead. At that point, I can sit down and allow the Bill to progress. I see no reason why this should be a stumbling block, given that my amendment proposes the intention of my hon. Friend and the Minister in any case.

[Mr Tom Harris]

The Bill is carefully worded so as to respect the devolution settlement. Responsibility for changing the hours is devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly, but it is not devolved to the Scottish Parliament and every piece of legislation that comes before this House must respect the Scotland Act 1998. As a pro-devolutionist, I firmly believe that, but the SNP wants to undermine devolution because it opposes it. The hon. Gentleman should be careful about aligning himself with the separatists.

[Philip Davies]

I have drawn exactly the opposite conclusion. What the hon. Gentleman says may be true in terms of the niceties of the legislation, but I understand that, like me, he wants to preserve the United Kingdom, and giving an additional safeguard to people in Scotland and in Wales is a much better way of safeguarding the UK than trying to railroad something through against the wishes of those people and using some legal nicety to try to justify that action. That is not a sensible approach.