British Indian Ocean Territory Debate
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Anneliese Dodds
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(1 day, 16 hours ago)
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The Minister for Development (Anneliese Dodds)
I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel) for bringing this Opposition debate to the House. As she knows, for over 50 years the UK-US base on Diego Garcia has been a bulwark in the Indo-Pacific, supporting critical missions against terrorists, countering hostile states and keeping us, and the rest of the world, safe. This Government are committed to protecting our base, protecting our position and capabilities in the Indian ocean, and protecting national security. The deal that we have negotiated achieves all of those goals. It is rooted in a rational and hard-headed determination to protect our country’s security, which is the first duty of any Government. It is this Government who are delivering on that and not ducking questions, as the right hon. Lady well knows.
Several hon. Members rose—
Anneliese Dodds
I will make progress and then I will be very happy to take interventions.
The status quo is not sustainable. It imperils UK and US strategic interests. A deal, as the right hon. Lady knows, is necessary. This deal will ensure the continued, uninterrupted operation of the base on Diego Garcia, well into the next century. It will cement UK and US presence in the Indo-Pacific for generations to come. I did not hear a single suggestion in the right hon. Lady’s lengthy speech about how she would secure that base at all. Base operations have been under increasing threat for decades—[Interruption.] The right hon. Lady knows that and many Members on the Conservative Benches also know it.
Several hon. Members rose—
Anneliese Dodds
Claims that there were no legal necessities to negotiate are absolutely wrong; they misunderstand the legal jeopardy and immediate operational challenges that the base faces. [Interruption.] I will come on to that; I am well aware of that. Ever since the legal certainty of the base was called into doubt, its ability to operate in practical terms, as it should be able to operate, given that it is such a critical facility, has been undermined. I know that the right hon. Lady is aware of that.
Anneliese Dodds
The 2019 International Court of Justice advisory opinion might be the most eye-catching of the legal developments in recent years—
Sir Iain Duncan Smith
Okay, excellent. I want to bring the right hon. Lady back to her statement that there was an imperative to resolve the situation. She knows very well that in the original advisory opinion by the ICJ it is very clear, as has been made clear by the ex-Attorney General, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Sir Jeremy Wright), that nothing regarding the Commonwealth falls within the directive, so by definition it is advisory. At the bottom of that agreement, the Government have a waiver that says that if they want to dismiss the advisory opinion, they can go ahead on that basis, so I ask the right hon. Lady: have this Government issued a waiver on the provision that nothing has to be a directive from that court? Have they issued a waiver?
Anneliese Dodds
The right hon. Gentleman is well aware that of course we know about that ICJ carve-out in relation to the Commonwealth. That is common knowledge. I find it slightly strange that he is presenting that as something that the House is not aware of—that is very peculiar indeed. He would have done well to wait for the rest of what I was going to say in relation to legal jeopardy, because this is by no means—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
Order. As the shadow Minister will know, the Minister is not obliged to take interventions from the Dispatch Box.
Anneliese Dodds
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Let me explain to Conservative Members, because I feel they are perhaps unaware of the fact that the ICJ advisory opinion is simply the most eye-catching of a huge number of legal concerns around the present situation. Those who had the genuine security of that base at the front of their minds would be determined to secure its future. Without a deal, it is inevitable that Mauritius would pursue a legally binding judgment against UK sovereignty.
Since 2015, 28 international judges and arbitrators have expressed views on the sovereignty of the Chagos archipelago. [Interruption.] Conservative Members are keen to shout. I wonder if they can tell me how many have agreed with the UK’s position. They are very quiet. That is because not a single one of those arbitrators and judges have expressed support for the UK claim about sovereignty. That lack of legal certainty would have real-world impacts on base operations and create space for our enemies. Some of those impacts would be on simple but crucial things, such as securing contractors and getting overflight clearances. I regret that the Opposition said not a single word about the issue of securing contractors and getting overflight clearances. There were other matters that they did not talk about.
Sir Jeremy Wright
The right hon. Lady is absolutely entitled to explain the Government’s position, but if her argument is that there is legal uncertainty, she had better get used to it, because there is legal uncertainty about a lot of things. If her argument is that lots of people disagree with the UK’s position, she had also better get used to that. As I have understood the Government’s position, it has thus far been that the advisory opinion we have received may one day become a binding judgment against the UK, obliging the UK Government to act as they now seek to do. I want to know from where that binding judgment may come, and I have not yet heard an answer.
Anneliese Dodds
I note that when the right hon. and learned Gentleman talked about the potential for real-world consequences coming from legal uncertainty, some on the Conservative Benches laughed. We do not find this subject amusing; we view it as incredibly serious. If we do not have a deal with Mauritius, Conservative Members know that it would have every incentive to do a deal with someone else. We would face the risk of joint military exercises around the base—I did not hear a single word about that from Opposition Members. We would face the risk of other countries setting up outposts on surrounding islands, which appears not to be a concern for Opposition Members. We would also have the risk of hostile actors trying to interfere with crucial communications, and crucial communications they are. That is what is in our strategic defence interest, which the shadow Foreign Secretary mentioned. Without a negotiated solution—
Anneliese Dodds
No, I will keep speaking, as is my right. Without a negotiated solution with Mauritius, it would pursue its legal campaign; it has made that very clear, as the shadow Minister knows. That would lead to an inevitable, legally binding judgment, which would be—[Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
Order. I will not have this level of shouting at the Minister. I will hear her, and of course, it is within her right not to take interventions. Please can Members approach this debate in an orderly fashion?
Anneliese Dodds
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
As I was saying, in that kind of situation, we would unfortunately see international organisations following that determination, such as the International Telecommunication Union. [Interruption.] I heard from the Opposition Front Bench, “Let them have a go.” The consequences of letting them have a go could be that critical spectrum for telecommunications that is essential for our security is compromised, another issue about which I sadly heard nothing from the right hon. Member for Witham.
The legal necessity of this deal has rightly been recognised by successive Governments.
Anneliese Dodds
I agree with the chuntering; it is risible that the Conservatives undertook 11 rounds of negotiations on this subject, and they simply will not admit to having done so. The right hon. Lady herself stated that that was something she could not speak about.
Lewis Cocking (Broxbourne) (Con)
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way on that point, because she is at risk of not necessarily being accurate in her remarks. She is absolutely right that the Conservative Government went into negotiations with Mauritius, but she seems to think that starting negotiations means that the end result must be capitulation and abiding by Mauritius’s ideas. Before other Members stand up and read out the Labour party briefing, can I remind the Minister that under a Conservative Foreign Secretary, Lord Cameron, it was deemed that those negotiations were going in a direction that was not in the British national interest, and they were ended?
Anneliese Dodds
I find the approach of Opposition Members to this subject to be very confusing. [Hon. Members: “Shocking.”] Some say shocking—I say confusing. Some Opposition Members have said that they cannot speak about those 11 rounds of negotiations. A moment ago, we heard an intervention stating that those negotiations must have been completely different in content, without spelling out why they were different. I find this a peculiar situation. Of course, there are many things that the Conservatives started that Labour did not want to continue—economic chaos and damage to our public services are some—but the Conservatives began those negotiations, and indeed had 11 rounds of them.
Anneliese Dodds
I am happy to give way to the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Dr Johnson).
Dr Johnson
Unlike some of my esteemed colleagues, I am not a learned lawyer or a former Attorney General, but to an ordinary layperson like me, it sounds very much like the right hon. Lady and her Government are prepared to give away sovereign British territory and billions of pounds of taxpayers’ hard-earned income, simply in case somebody brings a court case sometime in the future that may or may not be successful. Can she please reassure me that that is not true?
Anneliese Dodds
I think that the ordinary general public would be pretty concerned about a situation in which we had the risk of joint—[Interruption.] Opposition Members laugh. They laugh about the risk of joint military operations around the base. They laugh about the risk of other countries setting up outposts on surrounding islands, and they seem unconcerned about the threat of hostile actors trying to interfere with crucial communications. Those matters are of concern to the public, and they are of concern to the Government.
Mr Francois
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I apologise, but to prevent the Minister from inadvertently misleading the House, in answer to a parliamentary question, we have it from Sir Chris Bryant, ironically—
Mr Francois
We have it from the telecoms Minister that the International Telecommunication Union has no power to veto the use of military spectrum, so it could not interfere with satellites. That is the Government’s official position; does the Minister now wish to correct her remarks?
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. I think I will respond to the point of order first. The shadow Minister will know that that was not a point of order, but a point of debate.
Anneliese Dodds
I do not want to embarrass the right hon. Gentleman, but he surely understands the difference with access to spectrum, which is the key issue here. It is critical. I find it strange that he allots that issue so little consideration, when it could be of such strategic importance to our country.
The right hon. Member for Witham talked about remarks from Mauritian Prime Minister Ramgoolam. It appears that she has been spending a lot of time looking him up at length on the internet. I therefore find it rather strange that she did not see what he stated on 5 February, where he set the record straight about the terms of the deal. Perhaps she does know about this, but chose not to refer to it in her remarks. He confirmed what this Government have been saying with clarity and consistency since the announcement of a political agreement in October, so let me spell out what we have said about the duration and terms of the treaty and what Prime Minister Ramgoolam confirmed, which appears to have been missed in previous comments.
The deal will be for 99 years and can be extended if both sides agree. The UK will additionally have a right of first refusal, meaning that the islands cannot be given to any other country at the end of the treaty without us first agreeing, and there are no changes to the rights and authorities that we will have to operate the base. Parliament will have the opportunity to scrutinise the details of the treaty after signature, when it is laid for scrutiny under the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 process before ratification. We would be delighted to have the right hon. Lady’s scrutiny, as would be usual.
To suggest that there was an acceleration of the negotiations before the Mauritian election flies in the face of the facts, as has been the case with many comments from the Opposition on this matter. When we took office, the negotiations had been ongoing for two years. We continued to engage with the Mauritian Government and to work in lockstep with the United States. While we recognise that it was in the interests of all sides to finalise the deal quickly, we did not put a completion date on the negotiations. We did not do so then and we do not intend to do so now. We are of course engaging with the new US Administration, including discussing the full details of the agreement, just as we engaged with the previous US Administration. I find it rather strange that the Opposition are confused about the nature of modern negotiations.
As we and Mauritius have said repeatedly, including in joint statements on 20 December and 13 January, both sides remain committed to concluding a deal on the future of the Chagos archipelago that protects the long-term effective operation of the joint UK-US base on Diego Garcia, continuing the practice of the previous Government. As is usual in these circumstances, negotiations have been led by officials with clear guidance and oversight from Ministers.
Dr Evans
I have a feeling that if I had an invisibility cloak like my right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge (Tom Tugendhat) seems to have, it might well help us win in Ukraine. I simply ask this: negotiators have been given a negotiation to do, so in the name of transparency, can the Government tell us which budget the funding will come out of? They must know when they go to negotiate what they are actually negotiating.
Anneliese Dodds
I am more than happy to go into the financial question in a few moments, because this too, sadly, is an issue about which the Opposition have been deeply confused.
As for the question regarding the Attorney General, he met his Mauritian counterpart for a courtesy call. As was stated when he was in the UK in January, that meeting did not constitute part of the formal negotiations. I find it strange that the term “formal negotiations” is not understood by the Opposition; again, they are confused. On the broader question, the Attorney General has been clear that, as has been the case with every other Attorney General, whenever a conflict might be identified in any hypothetical circumstance, it would be dealt with as part of the proper process and he would recuse himself, if that were needed.
Tom Tugendhat
I appreciate that the Minister’s budget has been cut so much that she is now put on suicide watch to defend the indefensible for the Government—[Interruption.] And I appreciate that the howls of outrage from Labour Members will be confected when it comes to this issue, for the simple reason that the Minister has nothing to add on a budgetary question that has gone from $13 billion to $6 billion and is now coming out of her budget. Will she make it absolutely clear to the House that there is no way that she will take hard-earned taxpayers’ money that should be going to support the poorest in the world and instead pay off a Government who actually have no legal claim?
Anneliese Dodds
I know that the right hon. Gentleman is honourable, and he may wish to reflect on his opening remark, because that was not his normal style at all. As for his question about finances, it is clear that a financial element was vital to securing a deal to protect the operation of such a vital base over the course of 99 years. If we do not pay—I will say it again—someone else will. Our adversaries would jump at the chance to establish outposts on the outer islands. There has been a lot of inaccurate speculation about the cost of this treaty.
Mr James Cleverly (Braintree) (Con)
I genuinely appreciate the opportunity that the Minister has given me to speak about this matter, but I want to clarify a point. She has said this a couple of times now, and I want to understand. She keeps saying that if we do not pay, someone else will. Who would be the recipient of that payment, given that the Chagos islands are British sovereign territory? Is she suggesting that another country would pay us? Why would another country pay Mauritius? The Chagos islands do not belong to Mauritius.
Anneliese Dodds
I know that the right hon. Gentleman understands full well that this is because of the legal uncertainty that is created by the current situation. That has been recognised time and again. It was the reason his Government engaged in 11 rounds of negotiations, and it is why there is this problem. I am surprised that Conservative Members are so unconcerned about the contestation that we see in that part of the world, and the need for our country’s interests to be put first.
Anneliese Dodds
No, I will not take another intervention from the right hon. Gentleman. My response was very clear.
On the subject of inaccurate speculation about the cost of the treaty, Prime Minister Ramgoolam has confirmed that the reports of a doubling in value are completely false. The overall cost of the deal has not changed from that negotiated with the former Mauritian Prime Minister. There have been some changes in the financial arrangements—
Anneliese Dodds
I was just about to come on to that. There have been some changes to enable a limited element of front-loading, but the overall net present value of the treaty payments, which accounts for the impact of indexation, is not higher than it was. I will not press this point, because it would be very unfair to Opposition Members, but surely, when they talk about economic illiteracy, they are not falling into the trap of confusing timing with magnitude, because there is a pretty obvious difference between the two.
We will provide more information on the departmental budgetary impacts in due course. The details will be set out when the treaty is laid before Parliament. We are seeing more bizarre claims about this issue even just within this debate. Frankly, we heard wild enough ones earlier when the Leader of the Opposition had her say, and the Prime Minister explained that she was wide of the mark. Of course, as colleagues would expect, any funding arrangement and the departmental split of any costs arising from the treaty with Mauritius will be finalised through the spending review. I have to say that I am used to hearing some pretty wild maths from the Conservatives, and we had the true Tory kamikaze Budget of course, but they are surpassing themselves, because it is ridiculous to compare—
Anneliese Dodds
I will continue to explain why the Conservatives cannot compare speculative figures for the lifetime cost of a 99-year-long agreement to protect our national security with an annual uplift to defence spending that is the largest since the cold war. There is clearly a difference of many orders of magnitude, and I feel that they really need to reflect on the bizarre claims they are making.
Although this has necessarily been a state-to-state negotiation, with our priority being to protect the base, we recognise the importance of the islands to Chagossians, and we have worked hard to ensure that this agreement reflects the importance of the islands to Chagossians. Some may say that it is farcical to talk about Chagossians, but I do not believe it is farcical. As we have already announced, we will finance a new trust fund for Mauritius to use in support of the Chagossian community. We will work with Mauritius to start a new programme of visits for Chagossians to the Chagos archipelago, including to Diego Garcia, and Mauritius will be free to develop a programme of resettlement on the islands, other than Diego Garcia.
Sir Bernard Jenkin
I have to say that the Minister is putting up a very loyal and heroic defence of her Government’s policy. However, I predict that if the Government persist with this proposal, it will become a running sore for the governing party, and they will rue the day. The British people will know that they have just given away a sovereign territory unnecessarily, and what is more, they have put the icing on the cake with billions of pounds of taxpayers’ money. They will never live it down, so my advice to the Government is to quit while they can.
Anneliese Dodds
I do appreciate the kind tone in which the hon. Gentleman expressed his remarks. However, I would say, respectfully, that the running sore is the situation that has led to our country’s national security being subject to legal jeopardy because this issue had not been resolved. The Conservative Government, on whose Benches he sat, had 11 rounds of negotiations with Mauritius on this subject, and this Government have been determined to make progress for the sake of our national security.
Mr Calvin Bailey (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
What was the point of the Conservatives starting a negotiation if there was no intent to reach an agreed solution? If there was a red line, which they are now saying there was, where is it published?
Anneliese Dodds
I could not have said it better myself. That is indeed the nub of the point.
I want to inform the House that, separate from the agreement, we will increase our support to Chagossians who are living in the UK and around the world through new and existing projects.
Another issue that has been of considerable interest to Members is the environment. We have secured a deal that will help to protect the unique environment of the Chagos archipelago—one of the world’s most important marine environments—to which both the UK and Mauritius have committed. The agreement will be supported by an enhanced partnership between the UK and Mauritius, under which the UK will support Mauritius’s ambitions to establish a marine protected area that protects the globally significant ecosystems in the Chagos archipelago. That is particularly important when it comes to protecting the islands’ biodiversity and ensuring they are protected against threats such as illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing activities.
Dr Al Pinkerton (Surrey Heath) (LD)
I am struck by the fact that it has taken nearly an hour of discussion and debate in this Chamber for Chagossians to be mentioned for the first time—not a single member of His Majesty’s loyal Opposition chose to mention Chagossians in their multiple interventions. I have spoken to Chagossians over many months and years, and they have told me they are genuinely fearful of being traded from the United Kingdom to Mauritius, a Government who have—
Anneliese Dodds
The hon. Gentleman is right to raise this issue. Of course, he will understand that the negotiations were between the UK and Mauritius, and that our priority was to secure the full operation of the base on Diego Garcia, as we have been discussing. We do recognise the importance of the islands to the Chagossians, which is why they were engaged with after this deal. It is important to respect the fact that there are different views within the Chagossian community. They do not speak with one voice; no community does. The Chagos Refugees Group, for instance—one of the largest Chagossian groups— has welcomed the agreement. We will continue to have those discussions with the Chagossian community, particularly those based in the UK.
On the environment, I will lastly mention that the agreement, with its environmental focus, has been welcomed by instrumental conservation non-governmental organisations, including the Zoological Society of London.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Ind)
Will the Minister for a moment acknowledge the hardship and horrors that all Chagossians have been through since they were illegally expelled from their islands many years ago? They all deserve recognition, the islands themselves should never have been separated from Mauritius anyway, and what we are doing now is correcting an historical wrong. I ask her not to be invited down a neo-colonial route by the Conservative party.
Anneliese Dodds
I will not be invited down any route by the Conservative party. We all know where that leads—to rack and ruin.
Of course, the situation for many Chagossians has been very difficult. I know this is an issue of concern to many Members, particularly those who represent UK-based Chagossians. That is why, as I said, that engagement has been important.
Sir Julian Lewis
The Minister is putting up a gallant fight in a very difficult situation. For the avoidance of doubt, is she saying that there is another court—other than the ICJ—that could compel this country to give up the Chagos islands? If so, will she identify that court?
Anneliese Dodds
What I have said is that there is clear risk to critical functions of that base on Diego Garcia because of legal jeopardy. Conservative Members do not appear to be aware of those issues for contractors, insurers and communications and from the risk of hostile states when it comes to the outlying islands, while the Government are concerned about that risk. I detailed earlier the 28 different judges and arbitrators who have expressed an opinion on this. To suggest that there is no legal jeopardy is, I am afraid, for the birds.
To conclude, this deal has had support across the US national security apparatus. The previous US Administration supported the deal. The new US Administration is rightly ensuring that they are satisfied. The deal has been welcomed by India and the UN Secretary General. The shadow Foreign Secretary mentioned China in her remarks. Again, I know that Conservative Governments have been confused about China. They have oscillated all over the place in their relationship, but can she or anyone tell me whether China has welcomed this deal. No? A pin could drop, Madam Deputy Speaker. China has not welcomed it because it knows that it will strengthen our country’s position in the region for the foreseeable future. Security must be our priority, but we have also negotiated an agreement that protects the unique marine environment and reflects Chagossians’ demand. This deal will protect the base, solidify our relationship with our closest ally and reinforce the UK’s global leadership. Anyone who values UK national security and that of our allies should back this deal.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)
We are short of time and other Members wish to speak, so I will try to be as brief as possible. I follow my constituency neighbour, the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr Bailey), whom I know and respect very much. I do not agree with him fully on this, but he made his point forcefully. I want to come back to legal uncertainty. The point is whether it is unclear if the original ICJ judgment stood as an absolute judgment. We know very well that the agreement said clearly that any dispute with a Government of any other country that has been a member of the Commonwealth is therefore beyond it.
When the court made its ruling, it was clear from the very beginning that it was an advisory judgment and not based on a legal position. I remind Members of what I said earlier: many of those who were part of that judicial process are not the long-standing judiciary in the sense that we would understand it here in the UK. Many of them are political. Vice-President Xue wrote this from the word go. She has been heavily engaged with the Chinese Government for some considerable time. The Chinese are not so stupid as to publicly welcome something, to give us an excuse to say that it is terrible—I say that as someone who is sanctioned by them—but the reality is that they are the major threat. China watches and knows that it is in a far better and stronger position if there is considerable doubt here about what is going on with ownership. We faced that problem from the word go.
I asked the Minister a very important question. I do not believe that the last Government, when they entered into discussions, waived the requirement that Commonwealth issues cannot be touched by this court. Under that agreement, they have to waive submitting themselves to the judgment of that court. I ask her again, and I will happily take an intervention—[Interruption.] Before she starts giving us that lecturely look, let me say to her—[Interruption.] No, she does. Instead of putting on the “tut-tutting” face, could she just answer this question? Did this Government, at any stage during these negotiations, waive their right for the ruling to be seen as anything other than advisory? Have they waived that exemption?
Anneliese Dodds
I have made that very clear previously. That carve-out for the Commonwealth is very clear within the ICJ. I think I looked at the right hon. Gentleman with a smile. If that is somehow looking at him in a “lecturely” way, I am terribly sorry.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith
If she is not careful, I might ask her to share a drink with me later. [Interruption.] I know, it’s irresistible, isn’t it? The main point is that she did not. That is as clear as mud. I asked a very specific question: did they waive their right over this particular agreement? That makes this, from the word go, not inconclusive and not, therefore, a mysterious judgment. It is an advisory judgment and the Government are under no pressure to accept it.