Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Monday 25th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Let us head up to Andrew Percy in Brigg.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con) [V]]

I am actually in Goole, Mr Speaker. With the upcoming health and disability Green Paper and the national strategy for disabled people, it is vital that those with real lived experiences are able to shape Government policy in this area. Can the Minister assure me that that will be the case?

[Justin Tomlinson]

I thank my hon. Friend, who is a champion of real lived experience through his casework and his speeches in Parliament. I can reassure him that both the DWP health and disability Green Paper and the national strategy for disabled people will be shaped by those with real lived experiences. I know that, as a proactive Member of Parliament, he will be happy to host his own stakeholder engagement event with his local advocacy groups.

Social Mobility Index

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Tuesday 9th February 2016 Westminster Hall

[Chloe Smith (Norwich North) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the social mobility index.

May I ask, Mr Percy, whether we have an hour for this debate from this moment?

[Andrew Percy (in the Chair)]

Yes. There is an hour for the debate from this moment, with the Opposition Front Benches being allocated five minutes each and the Minister being allocated 10 minutes.

[Chloe Smith]

Thank you; that is very helpful.

I am not in the business today of doing my constituency and my city down. Indeed, only last week Norwich was named the happiest place to work in the United Kingdom. In 2014, it was voted the happiest place for children, thanks to a combination of open spaces, public amenities, safe roads and other factors. It is a great city. We from Norwich proudly call it “the fine city”, and you cannot beat Norfolk pride itself. Admiral Lord Nelson told us:

“I am a Norfolk man and I glory in being so.”

In fact, Nelson himself is arguably a fine example of social mobility. Born in rural Norfolk, the son of a vicar, to a family of modest means, he lost his mother when he was young and was only average at school. He took an apprenticeship, had the benefit of leadership mentoring and rose to lead the Royal Navy and be seen as one of the greatest Britons of all time.

Then there is Thomas Paine, radical and revolutionary, who wrote the best-selling work of the 18th century and helped to found America—not bad if anyone expects low aspiration from the son of a Norfolk manufacturer of ladies’ underwear. There is the fact that we invented the office of Prime Minister in Robert Walpole, and then there is the first woman writer in English, Julian of Norwich. From my reading of her stuff, she may well have been mad, but none the less she went and did it. Indeed, the first Act of Parliament held in the parliamentary archives—from 1497, no less—is about Norfolk apprentices.

However much I love my city and my county and want to talk it up, it is wrong to ignore important and serious research when it is presented. The Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission recently produced its social mobility index, which shows that children growing up in the Norwich City Council area have some of the worst life chances in England. If Nelson said that

“England expects that every man will do his duty”,

Norwich children should now expect us to do our duty and put that right.

The commission’s analysis uses data about educational attainment from the early years through to further education and higher education and potential for people to be not in education, employment or training. It also includes adult prospects such as jobs, housing and pay. In simple terms, the report compares the chances for children across the country from poorer backgrounds in doing well at school, finding a good job and having a decent standard of living.

We also know, separate to the report, that Norwich has more children defined as being in poverty than the national average—in my constituency, around one in five. The commission that produced the report is sponsored by the Department for Education, the Department for Work and Pensions and the Cabinet Office. I am grateful to the Minister for being here today, and I am sure he agrees that there is plenty of work to do in the Government across Departments on this issue. There is also work for us in Parliament on any Bench to do to improve children’s life chances. Responsibility also, quite rightly, lies locally. The report is about the boundaries of Norwich City Council, and I hope that the council takes it as seriously as I do. We need to work together to improve Norwich children’s prospects.

The report also goes deep into educational data, and sadly—for that reason at least—it comes as little surprise, in the sense that the county council’s children’s services department has been improving from inadequacy for some time. A 2015 peer review of the council’s performance towards those not in education, employment or training found the overall impression that there were passionate and committed staff within the authority but no overall coherent political and strategic leadership commitment to the young people of Norfolk.

Let us look at what is in the report. The first half looks at the educational attainment of those from poorer backgrounds in each local area. I think we can all agree that background is one of the most important drivers of a child’s life chances. Under that heading, we start with early years provision. There is clear evidence that children from poorer backgrounds perform worse than their more affluent peers during the early years. For many children, that translates into worse outcomes as they go through their schooling. A Government-commissioned study of 2010 found that by school age, children who arrive in the bottom range of ability tend to stay there. The indicators in the report for that life stage are the proportion of nursery provision in the local area that is rated good or outstanding, and the proportion of five-year-olds eligible for free school meals who achieve a good level of development at the end of the stage.

I have been arguing for some time that we need more childcare provision in north Norwich in particular, where there is a shortage already. That is before parents become rightly keen to take up the 30 hours of provision that we will fund from 2017 and parents of the most disadvantaged two-year-olds make use of their entitlement. Let us ensure that that provision is of the highest quality.

I turn to the school years. There are a number of indicators in the report that determine how children who have free school meals do at primary and secondary school and then at key stages of achievement. The Norwich City Council area, I am sad to say, comes in as the 14th worst in the country in this section. It will be no secret to those who follow the issue that Norfolk has consistently performed below the national average when it comes to all students—not just the poorest—achieving the gold standard of five GCSEs. Indeed, in 2014 Norwich was the worst city in England for GCSE results.

I want every school in Norwich to be rated good or outstanding, and I would like to hear more from the Minister today about the Government’s part in that. I know that the local education authority and local academies are applying themselves to that question, too, for the thousands of students in Norwich who are being let down. I also want local leaders in schools to continue to use pupil premium money in the most imaginative and ambitious ways possible, to help the poorest students break out.

The report goes on to assess the years following school—in other words, a youth measure. As the report says, those years are crucial to social mobility, for two reasons. First, that is likely to be the first time that a young person will make a key choice about their own life and, secondly, what a young person has achieved at that point in their life has a significant impact on their chances as an adult, so it is important to be on the right track during that period.

The Norwich City Council area chips in as the 17th worst in the country in that section. The point about young people being able to go into work and make their own choices is precisely why I have worked so hard with many others locally to help young people into work through the Norwich for Jobs project, which I founded and which has helped to halve our city’s youth unemployment, but there is clearly much more to do. I would like to hear from the Minister how the Earn or Learn taskforce is addressing the problem and what else officials in Jobcentre Plus and other Departments are doing to help young people to make good and ambitious choices that suit them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Clive Lewis]

Well, obviously the catchphrase of one of his key characters was “Loadsamoney!” I think that was the expression. I heard my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Dr Huq) raise the issue of income, and I heard the hon. Lady’s answer, which was that many factors go towards child attainment and social mobility. We all understand that, but one of the key ones for many Labour Members is child poverty. The hon. Lady and I both know that in our city of Norwich—

[Andrew Percy (in the Chair)]

Order.

[Clive Lewis]

A quarter of—

[Andrew Percy (in the Chair)]

No. Excuse me. This intervention is too long. The hon. Gentleman will sit down. I call Chloe Smith.

[Chloe Smith]

Thank you, Mr Percy. I look forward to continuing that discussion some other time. May I say that I am delighted that the hon. Member for Norwich South (Clive Lewis) has turned up and been able to take part in the debate? It is important that we work together on these issues, and I have every confidence that we will do so.

I had the luck, at that time in my own life, to meet an excellent role model—my then MP, who is now the noble Baroness Shephard and who is in fact the deputy chair of the commission that authored the piece of work we are discussing. As Norfolk women, we share the burning belief that it is not where people come from that counts, but where they are going. That is my credo and, indeed, it is the Conservative credo. That call can be answered only by opportunity, by ensuring that every person has the chance to make of themselves what they want. Work must pay and responsibility must pay off. Conservatives believe fundamentally in people and their freedom, because people are enterprising and can make their own choices best, but they need the opportunity and the means to do so.

I am proud that it is a Conservative Prime Minister who is now setting out action that spans families, the early years, education, treatment and support, an end to discrimination, and increased opportunity. He is right to look out of Downing Street at the hopes and the quiet wishes of mums and dads, rich and poor alike, for their children every minute of the day, and he is right to seek to give every child the chance and the tools that they need. It is particularly important, as he said in a recent speech, to hail work experience and mentorship, as they can often open up a new world of contacts. It is even better when relatable role models provide those chances. Young businesspeople—for instance, those who are under 30—can be massively motivational.

Another constituent told me about the value of work experience, which gave him “exciting things”. People gave him responsibility, looked out for him, checked on his wellbeing and gave him purpose so that he felt valued, and he needed that to make the jump into paid work. Of course, there is also value to businesses in providing such experiences, as there are a lot of talented people in Norwich who just have not had their chance yet.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chloe Smith]

There has been an accepted principle that there are age gradations in the minimum wage. That is not new. Leeway is given for the time needed to train someone up to be able to do their job well. For me, that is the principle that drives age gradation.

We need to make more efforts to ensure that all Norwich children—and, indeed, children everywhere in the country—have the knowledge, skills, confidence and network to be able to meet the chances they require and take the chances they want. I am calling on Norwich businesspeople to step up even further and work with every school to provide a network and an opportunity for inspiration that is focused on the poorest children, who need it most.

Many good schemes exist or are coming in shortly, such as enterprise advisers. I urge the Minister to consider how to support those schemes stably over the long term. I want more great teachers to consider coming to Norfolk, because it is a great place to teach, and not to feel that they have to apply elsewhere because of the challenges that exist. I want every administrator who has the privilege to push a pen in the service of Norwich children to ask themselves, “How have I shown my ambition for Norwich children today?” I want the Government to understand that a lack of opportunity is hiding in perhaps surprising parts of our country, not just in traditional inner cities.

Most of all, I would like us to approach this debate without petty party politics. I have already mentioned the hon. Member for Norwich South, and it would be a pleasure to work with him on the issue. In fact, the Labour leader of Norwich City Council was a history teacher when I was at school. That is indeed history, and now we need to work together.

Tackling the issue is not about more welfare and more Government intervention alone, as that can address symptoms rather than causes and make dependency more entrenched. Nor is it only about the free market, although it is my view, with global evidence, that the free market has been by far the best thing ever invented for generating prosperity and improving living standards. There are obvious ways in which businesspeople can do more for the young people in their communities.

Breaking the social cage is not only about welfare or funding formulas. It is about ambition and leadership. It is our duty in Parliament and in local authorities to show ambition and to lead the hard work that is needed to break the cage. It is our duty to acknowledge the challenges of a city such as Norwich, as represented in the report, alongside the things that make the city great, so that it can be great for the poorest who grow up there as well. This is our opportunity to marshal an even more ambitious contribution from the business community, and from many others who can be role models and inspiring mentors to the poorest children in Norwich and help them access knowledge, skills, confidence and a network.

I used a series of Norfolk examples in my opening remarks to show that there are people who got on and did it from modest beginnings, but this is not only about what they did for themselves. It is about what they did for others. The issue is deeply rooted and will not be solved by one person or one solution. We need to understand what the report is telling us, raise our ambitions, show leadership and marshal more opportunities for the poorest children, who need them most.

[Andrew Percy (in the Chair)]

I am now imposing a five-minute time limit so that we can get everybody in. I ask hon. Members to keep interventions brief.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wes Streeting]

My hon. Friend is giving an excellent speech. I also have concerns about housing. When I was growing up, I always had the security of the council flat where I lived, whereas many families in similar situations whom I represent live on the other side of London and commute in.

[Andrew Percy (in the Chair)]

I say to the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) that I wanted to call the Front-Bench speakers at this point. Can he please respond to the intervention and then conclude?

[Justin Madders]

I am happy to do so, Mr Percy. We could certainly spend a lot of time discussing the more divisive aspects of Government policy, but I will conclude. Giving everyone opportunity in life is a core part of why I am involved in politics. To me, it is about fairness, and it should be a basic ingredient in any progressive society. Let us ensure that every new policy and initiative is met with the same question from all parties: “Will this help improve social mobility?”

[Andrew Percy (in the Chair)]

I remind the SNP spokesman and the shadow Minister that they have five minutes each to respond, and that they should try to stick to that.

[Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to take part in this debate with you in the Chair, Mr Percy. I congratulate the hon. Member for Norwich North (Chloe Smith) on securing it, and on her positive contribution in admirably defending and promoting her constituency in light of the report. She said in her speech that she expects us all to do our duty to those children suffering poorer life chances. Absolutely; I hope that she will communicate that directly to this Minister, the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions.

It is interesting that the hon. Member for Norwich North mentioned childcare provision. I absolutely agree. It should be a key area for improving children’s life chances, and we must do more on that front. I also support her comments on improving business links with schools in areas of deprivation to improve skills and access to the employment market. I congratulate her on her speech, and I pay tribute to the contributions made by the hon. Members for Ilford North (Wes Streeting), for Telford (Lucy Allan) and for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh), and by the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), the chair of the all-party parliamentary group. They certainly made for a good debate.

The social mobility index, released in January, shows the massive differences between different parts of England and the chances that poorer children who live there have of doing well in life. Although the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission covers Scotland, the index is for England only. Key findings include the fact that London and its surrounding areas are pulling away from the rest of the country. Young people from disadvantaged backgrounds who live in those areas are far more likely to achieve better outcomes in school and have more opportunities to do well as adults than those in the rest of England. In addition, coastal areas and industrial towns are becoming social mobility cold spots. Many such areas perform badly on both educational measures and adulthood outcomes, giving young people from less advantaged backgrounds limited opportunities to get on.

As the study related purely to England, we cannot compare figures for Scotland. The best comparison that can be made with Scotland involves educational attainment, and what is going on in Scotland may provide examples to be followed elsewhere. The Scottish National party and the SNP Scottish Government recognise that education is the best avenue for social mobility. The SNP is absolutely committed to closing the gap in educational achievement between children from wealthy and low-income backgrounds. The Attainment Scotland fund supports more than 300 primary schools that collectively serve more than 54,000 primary-aged children living in the most deprived 20% of areas in Scotland. That represents 64% of the total number of primary-aged children living in Scottish index of multiple deprivation areas 1 and 2.

The first seven councils to benefit from the £100 million attainment fund include Glasgow, Dundee, Inverclyde, West Dunbartonshire, North Ayrshire, Clackmannanshire and North Lanarkshire, which covers my constituency. They have been allocated £11.7 million in 2015-16 to raise attainment in schools in areas of greatest deprivation. An additional 57 schools based in areas of concentrated local need across a further 14 local authorities will also benefit from £2.5 million from the attainment fund.

There is more to do, but the attainment gap is narrowing in Scotland. There have been annual increases in the proportion of school leavers reaching at least SCQF level 5—from 73.2% in 2007-08 to 84.4% in 2013-14—and the gap between the most deprived 20% and the least deprived 20% of pupils achieving that level has decreased from 36 percentage points in 2007-08 to 22 points in 2013-14.

As time is limited, I will try to come to a conclusion. A key figure for me is that UCAS figures for this year show that since 2006 there has been a 50% increase in university applications from 18-year-olds in the most disadvantaged areas of Scotland. That is clear evidence that access to free higher and further education is working in Scotland, and that getting on has to be about the ability to learn and not the ability to pay.

[Andrew Percy (in the Chair)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for staying within his time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nick Thomas-Symonds]

I will quickly give way.

[Andrew Percy (in the Chair)]

Very briefly, I call Rupa Huq to speak.

[Dr Huq]

I just wondered whether my hon. Friend was aware of Fiona Weir from Gingerbread, who says:

“Further stigmatising single parent families will do nothing to tackle child poverty. Family breakdown doesn’t cause child poverty. It is unaffordable childcare, low levels of maternal employment and poor wages—”

[Andrew Percy (in the Chair)]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds]

I entirely agree with that point and I will conclude my remarks, Mr Percy. The Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission said just before Christmas that

“the existing child poverty targets…will be missed by a country mile.”

I sincerely hope that the Government are not simply trying to redefine child poverty to hide their own failure.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Monday 22nd June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Priti Patel]

My hon. Friend is right, because at the end of the day we are speaking about hard-working taxpayers who support and contribute to the welfare system. Of course, we have a duty to support those who are seeking work and who are in receipt of benefits, but at the same time, hard-working taxpayers want to ensure that their taxes are spent fairly.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

All I know is that those at Mission Trinity, an excellent independent non-political food bank in Goole, tell me that benefits sanctions are driving people to use it. I support the benefit sanctions system, but one issue that seems to be a problem is the consistency with which sanctions are applied. May we have a review of this and ensure that the recipients of the sanctions properly understand the consequences?

[Priti Patel]

I commend my hon. Friend’s local food bank, and him, on the work done in his constituency. If he has specific examples that he would like to draw to my attention, I will happily discuss them with him.

Job Insecurity

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Wednesday 5th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)]

I know from personal and family experience that job insecurity, unemployment and long-term unemployment in particular are very damaging to individuals and communities. Unemployment can affect mental and physical health and hold back economic growth. I know what it is like for a family’s breadwinner to be made redundant. I know what it is like to start with nothing, but I also know what it is like to create a business, create jobs and create wealth and opportunities. It is right to help people into work and make sure that work pays. In return, people on out-of-work benefits, for example, should be encouraged to take the opportunities available to help them move off benefits and into work.

I am encouraged that the number of people on jobseeker’s allowance in my constituency has fallen by over a third since the last election. With an out-of-work rate of 2.2%, the situation is a lot rosier than it was in the depths of the financial crisis. Long-term unemployment and youth unemployment are also down by a quarter. However, I will highlight one area in my constituency where job insecurity is real. I make no apology for using most of my speech to talk about this issue.

I am proud to represent a constituency whose two power stations at Drax and Eggborough are responsible for about 12% of the UK’s electricity generation. I was delighted that, before Christmas, Drax was awarded an investment contract to convert one of its units to renewable biomass. This is great news for local jobs. Sadly, Eggborough power station, which recently celebrated 1 million running hours since its opening in 1967, was not so lucky.

Eggborough is a cornerstone of industry for the region, for both the 800 employees on site and the thousands of engineering, construction and procurement workers across the region whose jobs depend on Eggborough’s continuing survival. The station plans to convert from coal to biomass in a project worth £750 million for our region. A number of local MPs and I are deeply concerned that its future could now be at risk, and with that comes increased job insecurity.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

This is a big issue in my constituency as well. My hon. Friend is fighting tirelessly for Eggborough. Is not the risk that if these jobs go, they will be replaced by energy generation that is largely constructed overseas? It will probably be offshore wind and most of those units will come from overseas.

[Nigel Adams]

My hon. Friend is right. He has been a great help in the campaign to ensure that Eggborough stays open. There is no sense in creating jobs overseas for technologies that do not produce electricity, when we have right on our doorstop technology that can work with our existing coal plant conversions.

Converting the station to biomass means 800 new on-site jobs and delivers growth right across the region. The majority of the work force, however, will be local to Selby. Of course, it is not just about new jobs for a new generation of workers; it is about preserving existing jobs on and off site. Many workers on site have given most of their professional lives to Eggborough and it is unthinkable that Eggborough should be forced out of business just as they are nearing retirement. I, the management of Eggborough and my colleagues will continue fighting for this project, because it is the right thing to do, not just for our energy security, but because of the hundreds of workers who are dependent on it for their livelihoods. Over the years the Selby area has lost its shipbuilding industry, and in 2004 the large Selby coalfield closed down, but thankfully we are seeing business confidence return and with that come jobs and opportunities.

The problem I have with the Opposition motion today is that it appears to have been drafted by someone who clearly has never been an employer. There seems to be a strategy to try to talk down the British economy at every opportunity for political advantage. Like several of my colleagues on the Government Benches, rather than talking a good game, I took the decision to try to take action in my constituency and organised jobs fairs, matching employers and jobseekers. I have also been into the jobcentre to help with mentoring and interview skills. The jobs fairs have been extremely successful in getting people back into work. We have now had three jobs fairs in the district and will shortly be organising the next one.

I want to take this opportunity to thank Jobcentre Plus for all its efforts in working with me and my team. I also thank Selby college and all the companies and organisations that brought their vacancies to the jobs fairs. I urge Opposition Members please to engage with the private sector in their constituencies and to do something positive, such as organising jobs fairs, because they really work. I regularly visit companies in my patch, and the news is extremely encouraging.

Jobs in this country are up. More than 30 million people are now working, which means more than 30 million individuals taking a pay packet home to their families. Vacancies are also up, which is extremely encouraging. They are now at their highest level for five years. A recent snapshot showed 569,000 unfilled job vacancies across the country. In addition, it is British people who are being hired, as in the past year 90% of new jobs went to UK nationals. The new jobs being created are overwhelmingly full-time, permanent jobs in the private sector.

We are by no means out of the woods, but the Government are delivering a sustainable recovery and making difficult long-term decisions to secure a better future for everyone. Lord help us if the anti-business, anti-aspiration party on the Opposition Benches is ever returned to government.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson), because I want to counter some of the myths that have been perpetuated. It is constantly stated that Labour Governments always leave office with unemployment higher than when they came to office. That is not true. Between 1945 and 1951, unemployment fell under a Labour Government. For much of the 1950s and 1960s, the position was very stable. Let us contrast that with the 18 years of Conservative Government between 1979 and—[Interruption.] Government Members can brush it aside if they wish, but for 13 of those 18 years, unemployment was higher than 10%. When the Conservative Government left office in 1997, unemployment was brought down by the Labour Government and it fell in every year until the financial crash.

[Andrew Percy]

It’s somebody else’s fault.

[Sheila Gilmore]

It would be very strange to place the blame for a world financial crash on the Government of one country.

The other myth that has been perpetuated is that pensioners have this Government to thank for the largest cash rise in pensions ever because they introduced the triple lock. It did not happen because of the triple lock; it happened because inflation was so high in that year, which was largely due to the increase in VAT. If Members care to remember, it was said that that was never going to happen. The rate of inflation is the reason why the cash rise in pensions had to be so high. For pensioners, it was merely an inflationary cash rise. It had nothing whatever to do with the triple lock. If nothing had changed in the policy, the rise would have been exactly the same.

I want to touch on what all this means for a lot of people. We hear a lot about all the private sector jobs that have been created. However, nearly 500,000 of those private sector jobs are in the health and social care field, and most of those are funded by the public sector. They are private sector jobs only because they have been outsourced. For far too many of those employees, the working conditions have worsened. Earlier, a Government Member sought to intervene to say that Labour councils have outsourced contracts. I know of Labour councils that have outsourced contracts. My council has such contracts because it inherited them from the previous Liberal Democrat council.

Private firms are operating social care services on the basis of zero-hours contracts. People who work in the social care sector, much like the McDonald’s workers who have been discussed, wait at home to see how many hours they will get each week. Not only is that bad for the employee who never knows how much she will earn from one week to the next, but it is absolutely atrocious for the person for whom the care is being provided. It is no wonder that people do not know who their carer will be on any given day when the work is organised in that fashion.

The Government cannot escape responsibility for that situation. Why are councils finding themselves in that position? In Scotland it is largely because we have now had the council tax freeze, which has been mentioned, for six or seven years. It is not properly funded; local councils are strapped for cash, and as a result they are looking for experience in how to provide services. If a care service is outsourced, for example, it provides very poor employment circumstances for people.

Another problem that people encounter when on such contracts is how they organise child care. How can they do that if they never know when they will be able to work? One couple I spoke to at the weekend told me that they had to give up the possibility of both working, because they could not organise child care around their work contracts. That has knock-on consequences not just on their working conditions, but also on other aspects of their working life. These real issues are happening in all our constituencies, and we need to change that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

We have had an excellent debate. When the current Government were elected, we were promised that new policies would lead to

“steady growth and falling unemployment”.

Unfortunately, however, they did not. For three years, there was hardly any growth and unemployment stayed high. Despite all the benefit cuts, over this Parliament the Government will spend £15 billion more on social security and tax credits than they said they would just after the election. As a result, more young people have been out of work for over a year than at any time for 20 years. We urgently need to bring those young people, at the start of what should be their working lives, back into the labour market. In addition, more over-25s have been out of work for over two years than at any time since 1997.

After a long delay, jobs are finally being created, but the priority now is to bring back into the labour market those who have been locked out of it for much too long. That is the damaging legacy of three years without growth, and it needs tackling urgently, otherwise we will face a whole generation of lost economic potential.

[Andrew Percy]

On the subject of legacy and long-term youth unemployment, does the right hon. Gentleman regret the previous Government’s legacy? Under them, the gap between the best-performing and worst-performing schools widened, so we now have a group of young people relatively far less well educated than many of their peers.

[Stephen Timms]

What I am worried about is the apparent collapse of careers advice in schools, with more and more employers saying to us that young people are not getting the advice they need to plan for future employment. I am extremely worried about that.

Despite this legacy, our proposed job guarantee will deliver, unlike the Work programme, which was rightly described by the Chancellor in last summer’s spending review statement as “underperforming”, and the Youth Contract, whose wage incentives have proved a hopeless damp squib. The Secretary of State was right at the outset of the debate to commend the record on employment support in Wales, where the Jobs Growth Wales programme, reflecting our job guarantee, has done a great deal better.

This debate has focused on those in work. For the first time, the majority of people living in poverty are in households where somebody is in work, as was highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies). A staggering number of people in work are resorting to food banks, in Wales and elsewhere, so I welcome the Prime Minister’s agreement to meet representatives from the Trussell Trust, which co-ordinates food banks, next week, overruling the childish refusal to do so by DWP Ministers over the last several months.

Month after month, it is the same. Last month, inflation was more than 2% and pay rises were below 1%. That is what people are experiencing. For the first time—we had an exchange about this earlier—over 1.4 million people are working part-time because they cannot find a full-time job. My hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) reminded us that the House of Commons Library calculated that the average household was more than £1,600 worse off than at the time of the last election.

The hon. Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer), whom I am glad is back in the Chamber, made a thoughtful speech essentially arguing that there was nothing new about these problems. He should look at the quarterly Asda “Mumdex” briefing, which I think has been sent to all of us:

“Last year, we saw Mums cutting back on luxuries like holidays, gadgets and meals out. Now families are struggling to afford basics like heating and petrol.”

The intensity of the problem is new. YouGov found last year that the number of people feeling insecure at work had almost doubled since the election—6.5 million then, 12 million now—and the hon. Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams) was right to highlight the case of job insecurity at a power plant in his constituency. That kind of problem is widespread.

Our motion refers to health and safety changes. I had an exchange with the Secretary of State about this earlier, but I want to make a bit more of the point. This year marks the 40th anniversary of Labour’s Health and Safety at Work, etc. Act 1974. The disability benefits Minister, the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), rightly told me in a written answer last month:

“Workplace health and safety has made an important contribution to vastly reducing the numbers of people killed, injured or made unwell by their work in the last 40 years.”—[Official Report, 30 January 2014; Vol. 574, c. 669W.]

That is as a consequence of our legislation.

The Secretary of State reminded us that Ministers commissioned Professor Ragnar Löfstedt of King’s College London to review health and safety legislation. Some people think it should be dramatically cut back, but not the Secretary of State, and not Professor Löfstedt either. He wrote:

“I have concluded that, in general, there is no case for radically altering current health and safety legislation…There is a view across the board that the existing regulatory requirements are broadly right”.

Ministers said in response that they supported the recommendations of the review, but what they are doing is different. They are trying to shift the balance, even though they have been unable to find evidence to support them. I take the Secretary of State’s point—he is not responsible for this—but in an interview last month Professor Löfstedt described what is happening as ideology in place of evidence-based policy, and safety at work is at risk as a result. I want to highlight in particular the Government’s removal of civil liability for employers breaching health and safety law in the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013, which Professor Löfstedt picked out in his report one year afterwards. Given all this, there is now growing concern that health and safety is being put at risk.

My hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) highlighted employment rights and the case of INEOS in his constituency. The qualification period for protection against unfair dismissal has been doubled, from one year to two, and fees introduced for employment tribunals. The Government went so far as to consult on the proposal for no-fault dismissal made by Mr Adrian Beecroft in his infamous report. If that had been implemented, it would have allowed employers to fire people at will.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) pointed out at the start of the debate, the minimum wage has fallen by 5% in real terms since the election. The Chancellor has hinted that he plans to do something about that for next year—better late than never; let us hope he delivers—but he should look at enforcement as well. An estimated 300,000 people are paid less than the minimum wage, but there have been just two prosecutions in four years. The Secretary of State said that enforcement had been sorted out, but where is the evidence? Since 2010, Ministers have announced three times that they will name and shame firms that flout the national minimum wage, but so far nobody has been named or shamed. We need much more effective enforcement, including by giving powers to local authorities.

My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) highlighted the explosion in zero-hours contracts. The Resolution Foundation has found that average pay on them is 40% less than on regular contracts. My hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan) gave us a graphic example from his constituency of the reality of being on such a contract. We need a serious effort from Government to promote the living wage. My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) argued for “make work pay” contracts, whereby firms signing up to the living wage under our proposal in the first year of the next Parliament would get a tax rebate in that year of up to £1,000 for every low-paid worker who gets a pay rise, the Exchequer cost being entirely covered by increased tax and national insurance revenue.

Step by step, we are setting out how we will deal with the problems this Government’s policies will leave behind— growing insecurity and a big squeeze on family incomes in the middle and elsewhere. What we are proposing is practical, effective action to tackle job insecurity, make workplaces safer, improve pay, particularly for the low paid, and make the cost of living more manageable. We want to build a one nation economy, and the sooner the better.

Mesothelioma Bill [Lords]

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Tuesday 7th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Tracey Crouch]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Decades ago, the insurance industry would have held up its hands and said that, in hindsight, it had treated victims very badly. To be fair to the bigger players in the insurance industry, they have certainly tried, over the past five to 10 years, to improve the system of compensation for victims. They have set up the Employers' Liability Tracing Office and provided funding for research. Some of those bigger insurers have started to play catch-up for the mesothelioma victims. However, I recognise the concerns expressed by the Opposition over pleural plaques. As it happens, I was part of the insurance team that ensured that pleural plaques did not become a legislative issue in this House, and I stand by that decision today. That will remain a difference of opinion that we have on a specific asbestos-related disease. Where we do need consensus is over mesothelioma. It is a fatal condition and one that will kill somebody incredibly quickly and very painfully. I want to make sure that those victims who cannot trace their insurer or employer have access to the scheme and get the highest amount of compensation possible.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. She said that people will be looking at this debate and, with that in mind, I hope that she understands that I also want to support her amendment this afternoon. However, the impact of the £6,000 she mentioned—the additional 5%—on the people in my constituency who have been affected, or know someone who has been affected, by this, cannot be underestimated. I entirely concur with what she said on the figure, and I hope that the Minister will listen and consider how the £6,000 will impact on the people in our areas.

[Tracey Crouch]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that issue. The people we represent share a similar profile and we both have former dockers in our constituencies who will contract mesothelioma in the future, so I am very grateful for his support. I know that the current and future victims will be grateful to him.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Percy]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). I am also pleased to speak so soon after my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), who has done a fantastic job in highlighting this issue and fighting for her constituents, not just on this Bill but on the Bill that became the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, when we had a rebellion in this House which, I am proud to say, led to changes in the other place as well. I was happy to be part of that.

This is a big issue for my constituents and for those of my neighbour, the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), who is on the Opposition Front Bench as a Whip today and so cannot speak. We have a mix of industries across our region, including the steelworks, which are largely in his constituency but also in mine. We have a shipbuilding past, particularly in Goole, and I have in my constituency a number of former coalminers and a lot of power station workers who, even today, are affected by this.

[Mr Slaughter]

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman about the debate on LASPO in which Government Members played a strong part, as did Members in the other place. It is regrettable, though, that the Government are not going ahead with any changes to the provisions in LASPO, as was announced just before Christmas.

[Andrew Percy]

Indeed. My hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford just whispered to me that new clause 3, tabled in the name of the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), who obviously, very sadly, cannot be here, would have progressed that matter as part of this Bill.

I will comment more on my unhappiness with some aspects in a moment, but I was regaling the House on the importance of this issue for constituents in my area, several of whom have been to see me. They do not just come from the traditional industries. Very sadly, a lady who is a former schoolteacher recently came to see me who has the difficulty of having worked for a number of different education authorities and suffers from this terrible disease. It is very sad when we meet these individuals because, as hon. Members have said, a diagnosis of this disease is a death sentence. That should not be forgotten in any of our debates, and I do not think it has been.

I am proud that the Government have introduced this Bill. Members in all parts of the House recognise that we now have a scheme that will provide for hundreds of people who otherwise would not have been provided for, and that is certainly progress. I am a little saddened that some of the debate turned into an attack on insurance companies, although I understand that there is legitimate cause for concern about the behaviour of some of them. I voted for the 80% compensation amendment because I felt that the extra £6,000 was significant and deliverable, and, like other Members, I could see no reason why insurance companies would walk away from such a deal. That £6,000 would have made a very significant difference to people in my constituency who suffer from this disease and who often live in some of the poorest areas.

I pay tribute to the Government for introducing this Bill and getting the scheme in place. I am sad that the Bill is not as good as some of us would have liked it to be, and I hope that that will be considered when it is reviewed. The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) said that we would rather not pass legislation and then have to review it, but would rather it were perfect from the start. I suspect that there are very few pieces of legislation where that is the case, and this will clearly not be one of them.

I just want briefly to say, on behalf of my constituents who will benefit from this Bill, how pleased I am that something is in place. It may not be exactly what we wanted—some of us have tried to make it better and I am sorry we have not succeeded in doing so—but the scheme is to be welcomed and I hope we can all now support the Bill. I hope there will not be a Division, but if there is I shall be more than happy to support the Bill.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Monday 10th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

The new enterprise allowance is there to help people to make the transition from unemployment into self-employment. It is absolutely right to give them the support they need not just to earn the minimum wage but to go beyond that. We have seen some good examples of people taking up the new enterprise allowance who have started their own businesses and are now employing others.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

I join my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) in saying that take-up in Yorkshire has been excellent. Indeed, in my constituency there has been demand to access the scheme earlier, but one issue needs to be addressed. In many areas there is a lot of other potential support for businesses, but jobcentre staff are not necessarily aware of it. Can we ensure that the advice given is as tailored as possible, taking into account the various funding streams available locally?

[Mr Hoban]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The advice given is not given by Jobcentre Plus staff: we get private and public sector contractors in to give that support. We need to ensure that people setting up their businesses are signposted to other sources of advice and funding to give them the best possible start in getting their businesses off the ground.

Benefits Uprating (2013-14)

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Thursday 6th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

I welcome the extra support for pensioners. The Minister mentioned council tax. Does he share my shock and surprise that while Conservative councillors in my constituency have fought to keep council tax down by cutting councillors’ salaries and senior management, the few remaining and ever-decreasing number of Labour councillors insist on continuing to oppose those changes and fight for bigger increases in council tax year on year?

[Steve Webb]

All councillors have to have regard to the impact of council tax increases on those, such as pensioners, on a fixed income. It is incumbent on local government as much as it is on central Government to ensure that any unnecessary costs are stripped out so that council tax rises can be kept to a minimum.

Winter Fuel Allowances

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Tuesday 27th November 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

I am pleased to introduce this debate under your chairmanship, Mr Amess.

When I introduced a private Member’s Bill on this topic, it received the support of hon. Members of all parties, which demonstrates the depth of concern about the off-gas-grid energy market. The issue has also been constantly raised by Members during energy debates. Unfortunately, Government Whips objected to my Bill, and it is now suffering a lingering death in the twilight zone of the Order Paper.

I do not intend to use this debate to address the general problem of fuel poverty, the details of which should be well known to Members of all parties. I note, however, that 15% of all households in the UK are not on the gas grid, and that some 32% of such households are in fuel poverty, as opposed to 15% of those on the grid. Unfortunately, it seems that little has been done to address the immense problems that have been raised over the years. The present Government, to their credit, got the Office of Fair Trading to undertake a review of the market, but to almost universal disbelief, frankly, that decided that the market was working fairly. Despite that, much of the OFT’s work on the market is of great interest.

I have raised the issue of winter fuel payments for off-gas-grid pensioners on numerous occasions, as I am sure the Minister knows. Ministers in this Government and the previous Government have indicated that the idea has merit but, of course, nothing has happened. Back in March 2010, the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change, of which I was a member, raised the issue in its report on fuel poverty.

My Bill would not extend winter fuel payments to additional groups, nor would it tread on the contentious issue of means-testing winter fuel payments, which concerns some Members. My Bill does not attempt to address the many issues that surround off-grid energy. It is tightly drafted to give some relief to a particularly vulnerable sector: those pensioners who are off the gas grid. There are many such pensioners in my constituency, and they face a number of particular problems.

First and foremost, there is the cost of home fuel oil. As with all forms of energy, the price of home fuel oil has rocketed in recent years, but there is clear evidence that the price rises in the early autumn and stays high over the winter. Even valueoils.com, which sells the oil, states:

“Winter months are typically more expensive than the summer given the rise in demand across Europe, the summer months of June and July will usually provide the lowest rates.”

The graph on its website shows a dramatic price increase in all areas of the United Kingdom over the winter months, and it is important to note that that is as much an issue in rural areas of Wales, England and Northern Ireland as it is in the highlands and islands of Scotland.

When I secured this debate, Mike Foster, the former Member for Worcester, contacted me to point out that the Oil Firing Technical Association

“suggest a typical rural household could have saved £170 if heating oil was bought in June 2010 compared to January 2011 nearly doubling the value of the Winter Fuel Allowance.”

Even the House of Commons Library note that was produced for my Bill’s Second Reading states:

“The average costs of heating and providing hot water for a typical three bedroom house with LPG have been estimated at around £2,300 per year (based on April 2012 prices with a conventional boiler), heating oil is thought to cost around £1,700 and gas around £1,200.”

It is also worth noting that over the past four years the cost of heating an average home with propane or home fuel oil has increased by £850 and £750 respectively, while the cost for gas has increased by £400. Not only are off-grid homes more expensive, therefore, but the costs are rising much more sharply. In short, heating a home with liquefied petroleum gas costs almost twice as much as heating a home with access to the mains gas grid. Importantly, the main use of LPG and home fuel oil is for heating, so although those homes generally—as most homes do—have electricity and benefit from the discounts offered by energy companies, they still face greater costs, particularly for heating and cooking.

The traditional Government response has been to call for an extension of the mains gas grid as one way to address the problem. Indeed, the Scottish Government recently announced a new scheme to do that but, realistically, such schemes are going to help only those households with a mains gas supply relatively nearby. Even then, the cost of connecting to the gas grid can be substantial and well out of the range of many people who would like to be connected. I have dealt with cases in my constituency just outside towns when although there is a gas main relatively close by, residents have been quoted many hundreds of pounds for connection to it. Furthermore, many rural and island areas will never be able to connect to the gas grid. The grid simply does not exist in many remote areas, let alone in island areas, so in such areas the cost of connection would be enormous.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

I have an example from my constituency. The marshland villages to the south of Goole are not on the grid. I have raised that with the network, and it has no intention of putting them on the grid. Such communities face the double problem of being more reliant on their cars and often living in the worst insulated houses.

[Mr Weir]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, and I was going to address some of those problems. In many rural areas, the situation is exacerbated by the fact that much of the housing is old and of a construction that makes it difficult to install energy-saving measures such as cavity wall insulation. Many houses in rural Scotland are of a solid wall construction, and there is a limit to what can be done to save energy. Once the roof insulation has been put in, the only real option is to install some sort of solid wall insulation, which is difficult in many of those houses.

Such households will receive the same winter fuel allowance as pensioners on the gas grid, but there is a crucial difference in how the energy is delivered. Those who are on the gas grid will receive their winter fuel bill around the time that the winter fuel allowance is generally paid, so the system works well for those people. Indeed, in the explanatory notes to the regulations that last amended the benefit, the previous Government specifically stated:

“They are paid in a lump sum each winter to ensure that money is available when fuel bills arrive.”

No one could dispute that that is a good thing, but that is not how it works for those who are off the gas grid. Such people face the difficulty of having to pay for their LPG or home fuel oil up front at the beginning of the winter, well before they have the benefit of the winter fuel allowance. Many find it difficult to do so and may not completely fill up the tank, leaving them having to do so in the depths of winter, which brings its own problems, and not only due to the cost.

The OFT’s report found that there are many competing suppliers in the market, but by definition many of those suppliers are small. Although some of the larger players offer greater payment flexibility, smaller ones are unable to do so. The Minister may be interested to know that some of the bigger players have expressed an interest in doing something, but they sometimes have difficulty finding vulnerable customers because of the regulations. Although electricity companies, for the purpose of the discount, can access such information, I understand that other energy companies cannot because of the way the regulation was drafted under the Energy Act 2010.

Employment Support

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Wednesday 7th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Maria Miller]

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows that the money I am talking about will be on top of the quite significant provision that we make for redundancy in the process.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

Local authorities in the former Humberside region struggled with a similar problem to that of Remploy involving B-line. In 2007, the then Labour council in North Lincolnshire decided to close B-line down. Since then, there have been far too many people with disabilities presenting to MPs and councils in the area and requiring support. What can my hon. Friend say to those people who will be affected by today’s decision? Specifically, will she assure me and the House that social enterprises will be engaged to help the individuals affected, and that there will be a guarantee that every worker affected will get the maximum support, rather than just the average sum?

Welfare Reform Bill

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Tuesday 21st February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Timms]

The hon. Gentleman should reflect on the fact that, as I have described, the costs will be greater in a number of ways with the Government’s provisions in place than they would be if the Lords amendments were retained.

Before I leave the topic of discretionary housing payments, it is worth my noting how the extra £30 million has been found. Initially, the average penalty for under-occupying by one bedroom was going to be £11 a week, and now the Government have increased it to £12 a week. They have increased the penalty for everybody affected in order to scrape together the extra cash to increase discretionary payments.

The last time this policy was debated, we offered an effective alternative whereby a tenant would have their benefit cut as a penalty if they refused a suitable move. Unfortunately, Government Members threw it out. The Lords amendments would limit that safeguard to the four groups that I have mentioned—the sick, the disabled, war widows and foster carers.

Ministers have said that their policy will be a work incentive, but the support group comprises people who are not in a position to work. A work incentive will do them no good at all. Let us call a spade a spade: this is a spiteful cut in people’s income. Foster carers provide a service that saves the Exchequer billions. The Fostering Network has warned that people will be forced by the penalty to give up fostering, which will increase costs to the Exchequer. War widows and widowers have seen their loved ones die for their country. Their grieving barely over, they will be fined under the Government’s policy because they have one bedroom too many. I ask whether that is really what Government Members came into the House to do to their constituents. The Government’s policy, without the Lords amendments, will penalise everybody regardless of whether they could move.

Fourteen Government Members joined us in voting for the relevant Lords amendment last time. I thank them for that, and their constituents will do so as well, even if their Whips will not. As we were not successful, social landlords will have to take on extra staff to chase the resulting arrears that will start to accrue in every social landlord’s stock across the country. The current Lords amendments are much more modest than the previous ones, but they would at least protect those who stand to lose the most from what the Government want to do. I hope that hon. Members will support the Lords amendments and oppose the Minister’s motion.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

When I spoke during our last consideration of the Lords amendments to the Bill, I expressed concerns about this policy, particularly about the changes to child maintenance payments. I am pleased that there has been some movement on that front, but I find myself once again in support of their lordships. I am sorry about that, because the ministerial team is one of my favourites. I will not tell you which is my least favourite, Mr Speaker, but people can guess.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Tom Clarke]

I find myself agreeing with almost everything that the hon. Gentleman has said, apart from his view of those on the Treasury Bench. In addition to his experience in his own constituency, is he influenced by the fact that disability organisations have told us about the example of a man with a learning disability who had to wait for 25 years for appropriate accommodation? It turned out to be a two-bedroom house, which has now become his home.

[Andrew Percy]

I do not know the circumstances of that case, but in my time as a councillor we had a number of properties that were very difficult to let because people did not want to live in them. That was particularly true of the maisonettes. In Old Goole in my constituency, a two-bedroom maisonette has recently been let to an individual after about 20 years. He will be under-occupying because of the spare bedroom, but we are grateful that he has taken the property off our hands.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

Given my time in local government in my constituency, I totally agree with the hon. Gentleman on that. Does he recognise that for many years, the Housing Corporation, which funds a lot of social housing, has not given grant to the building of one-bedroom properties?

[Andrew Percy]

Indeed. The standard for many housing associations is to provide two bedrooms—there is a programme in my constituency to renew such properties at the moment. In a few years’ time, we could end up with a lot of people who, through no fault of their own, are under-occupying homes because the standard has changed.

[Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)]

Is that not the argument? There is a lack of family accommodation and we need to house families who are in temporary accommodation, especially for the children.

[Andrew Percy]

We need to address the failure to provide adequate housing stock in this country. However, I say to my hon. Friend and near neighbour that the Government’s proposal is not a way to do so. It is not a simple problem to solve.

The crux of the amendment is that if there is suitable accommodation to go into, people should go into it, but just as there is an insufficient number of bigger homes for families, there is an insufficient number of smaller, one-bedroom properties for those groups of people to go into. If we apply the argument that there is no suitable housing for one group of people and we must therefore do something about them, we should also argue that we should not penalise people who are under-occupying if there is no suitable accommodation for them.

The sensible element of the Lords amendment is that the penalty kicks in only if people refuse a suitable property. That is eminently fair. Hon. Members must come to their own conclusions, but I will vote accordingly. I look forward to hearing other contributions to the debate.

[Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

As the House may know, I agree with the Government on many aspects of the Bill and I have not always shared the sentiments of Opposition Front Benchers. I regret that, but I have made my position clear. However, I today wish to speak against the Government on their stance and to support my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms).

I do so because the change that the Government are making is shameful. Anyone who has sat through debates on the Bill will know that the Government’s body language is totally different to that in respect of other measures. They have been forced to take this measure by the Treasury. It goes against all that the Bill tries to achieve, which is to work with the grain of human nature. This proposal, which has been forced on the Department for Work and Pensions, works against that grain.

There are four reasons why Government Members should today save their favourite Front Benchers from the course that the Treasury is making them go down. First, let us imagine that places are available—that we could wave them into existence with a magic wand—and that all the people whom the Government condemn as under-occupying could move. That is the last thing the Government want, because to satisfy the Treasury requirements, the Department has had to enter into the accounts that it will make a substantial saving. If it were possible for people to move—all hon. Members know that it is not—the measure would fail, because it is being introduced not to even out housing, but to deliver a major saving in public expenditure to the Treasury by singling out the group who under-occupy. Therefore, the first reason why I hope Government supporters reject the measure is that it makes no sense.

Secondly, as we have heard, even if people move into the private sector, the total bill to taxpayers will be greater than if they stayed in social housing and were not penalised. The Government risk making the achieving of cuts in public expenditure that much more difficult than it is.

Thirdly, the Government’s proposal strikes against other major Government objectives with which I agree. The Government say that the reform is aimed at strengthening families and building stronger communities, but this move sticks a dagger into both those objectives. It will affect parents in families that have broken up and wish children to come and stay, and people who have carers rather than entering permanent care. Furthermore, as the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) said in his fine speech, people might snore. How many marriages have been saved because one partner who snored could move into another bedroom? These details do not appear in public accounts details but they appear in real life. If this measure passes, far from strengthening families and enabling them to relate to and visit one another more easily, it will make it more difficult, and it might well drive out of the community upstanding citizens who play a much wider role, in the most difficult circumstances, in trying to beat the yob culture that engulfs them.

There is a fourth reason I speak and wish Members, particularly on the Government Benches, to vote against the Government and save their own Front Benchers. The Government know that I do not accept all their poverty data, but they do not have the courage to come out, as I want them to do, and declare on that—perhaps one day they will find that courage. I do not think that the poverty data properly measure whether people are benefiting from the general rise in living standards that has occurred for generation upon generation in this country. Harold Macmillan said that the poor should benefit from rising living standards. One way of ensuring that they do so is to give them the freedoms that I and other hon. Members have—those small differences in life that so improve its quality. Having a spare bedroom with which to offer hospitality to family and friends can make such a difference to the quality of one’s life.

The Government know that they are going against a valuable tradition dating back to the Macmillan era. This is not a welfare reform measure. It will be a recruiting sergeant for the money lenders and will be looked on as an eviction measure. Given that the DWP cannot save itself from this terrible measure, forced on it by the Treasury, I hope that Government Members will save the Department from pushing through this nasty, mean little measure. I hope that the House will send a clear message to the House of Lords that, even if we do not win tonight, they should keep up the fight and send it back until there are enough Government Back Benchers to save the Department from this shabby little folly.