Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Bill [Lords]

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Thursday 3rd December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Matthew Hancock]

I was going to come on to the work of my hon. Friend and his Select Committee in making sure that the Bill is in the best possible shape. I am very grateful for the work that he did at the end of the last Parliament, after the National Audit Office report, to make sure that when we had a Bill, it gave the commission the necessary powers.

We believe that the Charity Commission has the power to convene meetings in public. However, I recognise that there is a question over whether it does so. During the passage of the Bill, we will look at that point in more detail. We are prepared to accept amendments, if they are necessary to bring clarity on the point that my hon. Friend raises.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

I agree with my right hon. Friend that pre-legislative and legislative scrutiny are extraordinarily important in this place. Will he observe, for the record, how much legislative scrutiny is being performed by Her Majesty’s official Opposition, since there are precisely no Opposition Back-Bench Members in the House?

[Matthew Hancock]

I hope that this Bill can unite both sides of the House. I welcome the hon. Member for Redcar (Anna Turley) to her place. My hon. Friend has made his point very clearly and it will appear on the record, but I do not want to get into an unnecessary dispute with the Opposition, given that I hope we will have all-party support for this important Bill which will strengthen the role of the Charity Commission and, ultimately, be in the best interests of charities throughout the land.

As I said, we want to provide a tough, clear and proactive regulator. Under the strong and capable leadership of William Shawcross and Paula Sussex, there has been a direct focus on tackling abuse and mismanagement. However, an effective regulator needs to have teeth. As the NAO reported, the commission needs our help to address the “gaps and deficiencies” in its legal powers. The Bill will close those gaps in the commission’s capabilities, as well as tackling a number of damaging loopholes in charity law.

Let me briefly outline the five new powers that the Bill confers. These powers will help to protect the public, the staff and the people our charities serve from those who would seek to exploit them. First, the Bill will extend the automatic disqualification criteria. Currently, the focus of the law is on barring people who have misappropriated charitable assets, but the criteria are far too narrow. We will extend them, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier) said, to include people with unspent convictions for money laundering, bribery, perjury or misconduct in public office, those on the sex offenders register, and those convicted for terrorism offences, including individuals subject to an asset-freezing designation.

Secondly, the Charity Commission will be given new powers to disqualify in instances where an individual has behaved in a way that makes them unfit to be a charity trustee, acting on a case-by-case basis and using its judgment and discretion. That new power is essential to empower the Charity Commission to tackle those who would bring charities into disrepute, and I hope that it will be used with care and decisiveness.

Thirdly, the Bill gives the Charity Commission a new official warning power in response to low-level misconduct. That will allow a more proportionate approach for less serious cases. Fourthly, the Bill grants a new power that allows the Charity Commission to direct the winding up of a charity following a statutory inquiry. That would apply if the commission proves that a charity is not operating, or that its purposes could be promoted more effectively by ceasing to operate, and that to do so would be in the public interest. We expect that power to be used in limited circumstances, and it is subject to several safeguards.

Fifthly, the Bill closes a loophole that allows offending trustees to resign before they are removed by the commission, and then act as a trustee for a different charity without fear of repercussion. That will ensure that trustees are no longer able to escape accountability if they abuse their position of trust. As with all the commission’s existing powers, all five of those proposals would be subject to the general duty to have regard to best practice. With the exception of the official warnings power, all the commission’s new powers are subject to a right of appeal to the charity tribunal.

All five measures that I have outlined are essential to protecting the interests and reputation of the vast majority of charities that are run by people of great integrity. The Charity Commission was closely involved in developing the powers, and it fully supports them. In addition, independent research for the Charity Commission found that 92% of charities supported new, tougher powers for the regulator.

We also intend to remove clause 9, which was added on Report in the Lords. We have serious concerns about the unintended consequences of that clause, as it attempts to encompass complex case law into a single statutory provision. It would also impose a major new regulatory responsibility on the commission. Clause 9 was not proposed because of concerns about charities in general, but in a narrow attempt by the other place to undermine the Government’s manifesto commitment to extend the right to buy. It is regrettable that a Bill with widespread support was used in that way, and we cannot allow that to stand. I urge the House to reject that anomalous clause and consider the matter elsewhere.

The challenge of regulating charity fundraising has already been mentioned. We can be incredibly proud that we are one of the most generous countries in the world when it comes to charitable giving, but although people are happy to give, they do not want to be bullied or harassed into doing so. A voluntary donation must be voluntary. Earlier this year we heard about the tragic case of Olive Cooke, Britain’s longest-serving poppy seller. For years, she was targeted with hundreds of cold calls and requests for money. More than 70 charities bought her details or swapped them with other charities, and in one month alone she apparently received 267 charity letters. Sadly, since then more cases of unscrupulous fundraising practices have come to light, and we must act.

We began by asking Sir Stuart Etherington to review the regulation of fundraising over the summer, backed by a cross-party panel of peers, and I thank them for their work. Sir Stuart recommended a new, tougher framework of self-regulation, and we are working with charities to deliver that. Lord Grade of Yarmouth will chair the new independent body at the heart of that framework. It will be paid for by large fundraising charities, and it will be able to adjudicate against any organisation that is undertaking charity fundraising. The body will be accompanied by a fundraising preference service—similar to the telephone preference service—which will give the public greater control over their consent to receive charity fundraising requests.

Next, we will prohibit contractors from raising funds for a charity unless the fundraising agreement between them explains how the contractor will protect people from undue pressure, and sets out how compliance will be monitored by the charity. It will require large charities to include a section in their trustees’ annual report on the fundraising undertaken by them or on their behalf. That will include an explanation of how they protect the public in general, and vulnerable people in particular, from undue pressures and other poor practices.

[Matthew Hancock]

I welcome that review, and I hope that during the passage of the Bill we can consider—and where appropriate take on board—any recommendations to improve it. I am glad that the work of that Committee is taking place concurrently, and I hope that recommendations will come forward in time for them to be considered for the Bill.

[Dr Murrison]

How can we make more explicit the amount of money spent on management overheads, and in particular the £80 to £120 per direct debit set up that goes to chugging agencies? That must be made crystal clear to people. That is, on average, the amount for the first year of any direct debit set up in favour of a charity. At the moment, people are not clear how much of their generosity is being expended on management overall and on that practice in particular.

[Matthew Hancock]

I am a great fan of transparency and a supporter of transparency across Government. We should consider carefully whether further transparency should be applied to charities, and how that is best delivered. I have no doubt that transparency begins at home for charities, and best practice is for them to be widely transparent about their operations. There is a question about whether we should do more in law, and balanced arguments in both directions. I hope we can consider that during the passage of the Bill.

ISIL in Syria

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)]

I pay tribute to the Leader of the Opposition, in his absence. All Members who have been here for some time know that he is a champion of human rights, but perhaps the greatest human right of all is the right to life. I ask the Leader of the Opposition and those who support him today to rethink their position. If we do not take on Daesh, more men, women and children—in their hundreds and thousands—will continue to be murdered.

I do not believe that anybody enters Parliament to make war. Indeed, I would hope that everyone in this Chamber is a peacemaker. There is enough war and conflict in this world already, as we are discussing today. Indeed, I pay tribute to the pacifists and peacemakers who sit on the Opposition Benches and on the Government Benches. Their views are both valid and respectable. Unfortunately, our enemies—Daesh—are neither peacemakers nor pacifists. They are a brutal, murderous and genocidal enemy that are killing men, women, children and peacemakers—probably at this very hour, as we speak.

Whether it is politically or intellectually palatable or not, it is a case, sadly, of kill or be killed. On a point of law for some of the waverers opposite, I would say that the motion before us is both legal and legitimate—both in terms of UN resolution 2249 and the right to self-defence in international law. As the Prime Minister reminded us, it is a UN resolution supported by both China and Russia—and, I may add, one supported by the Venezuelan Government, who are admired by some in the wider labour movement, such as the Unite leader Len McCluskey, and by many in Momentum. If Venezuela is prepared to support airstrikes in Syria, then why not Her Majesty’s Opposition? Let me say at this juncture that it should be the consciences of individual Members of Parliament that determine the fate of the sombre motion that is before us today, not the bullying and self-interested unions that appear to be engaged in their own insurgency campaign against Labour MPs.

Can there ever be a just war? Many faith leaders believe so, including faith leaders here in Britain. That is recognised by the Archbishop of Canterbury—who has said that “forceful force” should be used in the circumstances that we are discussing—as well as by other Christian bishops and religious minority leaders in the middle east. There is such a thing as a just war.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is describing the precepts of St Augustine very eloquently, but may I ask him to desist from describing this conflict as a war? Calling it a war gives the opposition a dignity that it does not deserve.

[Mark Pritchard]

My hon. and gallant Friend speaks with great experience and wisdom. I both agree and disagree with him, because I think we need to recognise this for what it is. We are at war, but it is a war that we have not chosen, or a conflict that we have not chosen. It is a conflict that our enemies have brought upon us, and we need to defend our interests and our citizens both at home and abroad.

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[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

May I start by drawing the attention of the House to my interest as a current member of the reserve forces?

The shadow of Iraq is clearly hanging heavy over this debate. In particular, it is hanging over the Labour party, and I understand that. I understand it because I have rebelled against my party only once—I am very pleased to see that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is in his place, because it gives me the opportunity to point out that fact. It was in 2003 and it was over Iraq. The debate around Iraq has overshadowed our politics in this place for 12 years, and I sense that the pain is particularly felt on the Opposition Benches.

What we are considering today has very little to do with what we were considering 12 years ago. Let us cast our minds back to 2003 when we were presented with the proposition of supporting, or otherwise, what the Prime Minister of the day had committed us to. This is different because this vote is permissive; it is different because this is not actually a war at all. That was; it was entering a conflict with all our armed forces against a sovereign state with a Government, however unsavoury it was—and boy was it unsavoury. This is quite different. This is the extension of a conflict that we are already joined in and, I would argue but others may disagree, a conflict in which we are making a real contribution.

The border between Syria and Iraq is not respected by our opponent. That opponent is not subject to any form of reasonable negotiation. It is a death cult. It is an organisation that gives us a grisly form of Hobson’s choice. A person can convert and subscribe to a murderous, barbaric and medieval ideology that crucifies people, cuts off their heads and subjugates women, or they can be killed. That is the choice; there is no middle way. There are no grounds for negotiation and very, very little room for politics. I do not want to convert and I do not want to be killed and neither do my constituents, so the only way to deal with this organisation is by the use of lethal force within the comprehensive arrangements that we have discussed at length today.

Lethal force means the involvement of our armed forces, and our armed forces are uniquely good at that kind of thing, as many of us who have been to a number of the theatres in which they have been effective recently have seen. They are better, much better, than those of our allies, however good those allies are.

Security Council resolution 2249 is quite clear. We are to use all necessary means, and words mean what words say. Sometimes, some on the Opposition Benches seem to have been reading too much Lewis Carroll given their interpretation of what words mean. Words mean what they say. The resolution gives a green light, in clear and unambiguous terms, for this country to do what is necessary. France has made a direct request. Those of us who stood in the Chamber only a few weeks ago and emoted about what was happening in Paris need to think about that very clearly. People who were happy to sing La Marseillaise and expressed solidarity, but are not prepared to support a direct request from our second closest European neighbour, need to think about that hubris, because that is what it is.

May I make a plea on the Vienna process? In Iraq, one of the biggest mistakes was de-Ba’athification, in which everyone, from a corporal or a clerk upwards, was generally stripped out at the behest of ex-pats with an axe to grind. That made our job of reconstruction extraordinarily difficult. We must not make the same mistake.

I should like to conclude with the words of the motion, which I wholeheartedly support, and to express support and admiration for our brilliant armed forces, who are truly the best in the world. Many of them are my constituents, and need the “wholehearted support” of the whole House this evening, and I am confident that we will give it to them.

National Security and Defence

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Monday 23rd November 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point. Countries as diverse as Tunisia, Yemen, Nigeria and Somalia can take heart from our strategy, because we recognise that their security and our security are inextricably linked. We want to help with things such as aviation security, on which we are massively extending our budget, and with building their armed services, policing and counter-terrorism capabilities. In the coming years, there will be an important role for our Army to play, in terms of forming training battalions, and for our intelligence services, as they increase their capabilities and trust in partner agencies, which can play an important role in keeping us safe.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

I very much welcome the statement, particularly the commitment to naval platforms and manned and unmanned airframes, but to what extent do the through-life costings for the F-35 reflect the likelihood that UAVs will render the technology therein obsolete by the end-of-service date?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is a considerable expert on this. What we have, particularly with our partnership with the French, is a plan for the next generation of fighter aircraft being unmanned combat systems. The research is there, the work is being done—with the French and Americans—and choices about that will have to be made, but I think it is too early to say whether the next generation of fighter aircraft will be manned or unmanned, which is why it is right we are developing the F-35 Lightning with the Americans and that we think seriously about whether to move to fully unmanned platforms in the future. Personally, as an amateur rather than a professional, I have my doubts.

G20 and Paris Attacks

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Tuesday 17th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The obstacle so far to a Security Council resolution has been the fact that one of the permanent members, Russia, has threatened to veto meaningful Security Council resolutions that would perhaps provide the overarching permission for the action that we believe is necessary in Syria. I will answer the question very directly in my response to the Foreign Affairs Committee in saying that the action I believe we should take is legal under international law. I know that should be spelled out clearly, and of course I will spell it out clearly.

In terms of disrupting Daesh’s financial flows, we are part of the committee that is looking at all the action that can be taken, including against financial institutions. As I said, one of the most important things we can do is to stop its funding through the oil trade, some of which it is selling directly to Assad.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

Earlier this year the Kingdom of Morocco signed an agreement with France to train imams and preachers, including women, in the moderate mainstream tradition to which my right hon. Friend referred. Will he congratulate Morocco on the exceptional leadership it has displayed in tackling extremism and commend its further efforts, whereby perhaps the UK can learn some of the lessons that France is currently undergoing?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We can learn the lesson from Morocco. There is also work that the German Government have been doing with Turkish imams and work that we have been doing with training imams coming into this country. One of the remarkable things about the G20 was the conversation about fighting radicalisation and extremism. The proposals made by, for instance, the Indonesian President and the Malaysian Prime Minister—both countries pride themselves on being part of the moderate Muslim world—were particularly powerful to listen to.

Syria: Refugees and Counter-terrorism

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Monday 7th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

We are funding the camps in Jordan, in Lebanon and in Turkey. The point I am trying to make about the 11 million is that, given that so far only 3% of the 11 million have moved to Europe, we have to be careful not to create an incentive so that that 3% becomes 10% or 20%, because that would completely overwhelm the capacity of even the most generous state, such as Germany, to receive people. That is why investing in the refugee camps and not just helping those in the camps outside Syria but working with UN agencies about how to help people inside Syria, which I was discussing with Stephen O’Brien this morning, is so important in trying not only to stop the scale of the movement but to save lives at the same time.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

I congratulate the Prime Minister on both parts of his statement and the agencies on the intelligence-led operation of 21 August. Does he agree that the mark of a truly altruistic and compassionate society is measured not in the tens of thousands of fit and able young men it accommodates, but in the number of people who are truly vulnerable—women and children, the elderly and the sick?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is why we are working with the UNHCR on the categories of people we will be taking from the camps.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Wednesday 11th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

1. What progress she has made on her consultation with the Electoral Commission on the transparency of donations and loans to political parties in Northern Ireland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

The whole House will have been deeply saddened by the passing of Lord Molyneaux of Killead. James Molyneaux was a distinguished second world war veteran and a fine parliamentarian who served Northern Ireland with great distinction for more than four decades, both in this House and the other place.

We are committed to ensuring the maximum transparency in party funding in Northern Ireland that the prevailing security situation allows, and progress has been made in detailed discussions with the Electoral Commission on finalising the new arrangements. I have spoken with the electoral commissioner, and I am confident that the necessary draft legislation will be ready to lay early in the next Parliament.

[Naomi Long]

I add my condolences and those of my party to those expressed by the Minister to the family, friends and former colleagues of Lord Molyneaux.

During the passage of the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2014, an undertaking was given here that last October the security situation would be reviewed again with a view to lifting the secrecy pertaining to party political donations. What progress has been made in that regard?

[Dr Murrison]

The hon. Lady is right that during the passage of the Act we discussed a review of the security situation and amending the measure accordingly. It is our aspiration to have full transparency in Northern Ireland, as we do in Great Britain. At the moment, our judgment is that the security situation does not warrant it and that we cannot take that risk, but we will keep the matter under constant review.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

I take this opportunity to pay tribute to my predecessor, Lord Molyneaux of Killead, KBE, who served in this House as the Member for South Antrim from 1970 until 1983 and then from 1983 to 1997 as the Member for the new constituency of Lagan Valley. He is fondly remembered by my constituents. He was the consummate parliamentarian and provided strong leadership in very dark days in Northern Ireland. He will be fondly remembered and missed by many, and our thoughts and prayers are with his family.

The Secretary of State and the Minister will be aware that Sinn Fein raises millions of pounds by various means each year for its electoral campaigns. There is a clear disparity in political party funding in Northern Ireland, yet Sinn Fein Members continue to draw hundreds of thousands of pounds in allowances from this House, despite not taking their seats. When will the Government address this disparity?

[Dr Murrison]

The right hon. Gentleman will know that that is a matter for the House, not me. It was last determined in 2006, and I would not wish to trespass further on the prerogative of the House.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

2. When she plans to make a progress report on the Government’s economic pact for Northern Ireland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

10. What steps the Government are taking to reduce the cost of living in Northern Ireland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

Cutting income tax, freezing fuel duty, welfare reform, dealing with the spectacular deficit we inherited and keeping interest rates low are practical examples of how this Government are helping hard-pressed families in Northern Ireland.

[Nic Dakin]

Labour has set out clear plans to raise the national minimum wage to at least £8 by 2020. What is the Minister doing to tackle low pay, when one in six people in Northern Ireland are in low pay?

[Dr Murrison]

I thought the hon. Gentleman would have started by welcoming the Government’s efforts to reduce unemployment in Northern Ireland—17,000 extra jobs in the private sector over the past year alone. If he was listening, he would have heard the answer to his question from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State earlier

[Alex Cunningham]

The Northern Ireland Council for Voluntary Action estimates that introducing the living wage would see 173,000 low-paid employees receive an average gross pay rise of £1,300 a year. Will the Government look at strengthening the living wage to help Northern Ireland, which has the lowest private sector pay in the UK?

[Dr Murrison]

The hon. Gentleman will, I hope, have seen the Institute for Fiscal Studies incomes report published earlier this month. It marked a major milestone, for it is now clear that average incomes in Northern Ireland are back from the pit they were in prior to Labour’s deficit crisis. The IFS further forecasts that incomes will rise above inflation in the year ahead, and I hope the hon. Gentleman will welcome that.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

Does the Minister recognise that the Democratic Unionist party’s long-term economic plan to see household taxes at their lowest and a freeze on the regional rate on household taxes for five years is working? However, this Government could have a direct impact by reducing energy costs for employers and consumers alike, and they should address that immediately.

[Dr Murrison]

The hon. Gentleman makes his points in his characteristically formidable fashion, and I am sure he will welcome the freeze on fuel duty, which will mean that by the end of this Parliament a tank of petrol will cost £10 less. He will also welcome inward investment to Northern Ireland, which I know he feels very strongly about given what has happened in his constituency, with, for example, Kainos, Randox, WhiteHat, Revel and PricewaterhouseCoopers. They will be creating 800 jobs in Northern Ireland—high-quality jobs—in the year ahead.

[Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con)]

8. What recent progress has been made on the status and operation of the National Crime Agency in Northern Ireland.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Wednesday 10th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

3. What steps she is taking to promote business investment in Northern Ireland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

May I first thank you, Mr Speaker, Opposition Front Benchers and the House for your indulgence in allowing the Secretary of State to be absent, exceptionally, today? As you know, she is chairing the extremely important talks at Stormont, and we hope that they will come to a satisfactory conclusion very soon. She takes her duties in this House very seriously, as you know, and she is grateful to you for your indulgence today.

The Government’s long-term economic plan is working for Northern Ireland, and the UK Government continue to work with the Executive to promote Northern Ireland as a great place to invest. Political stability is paramount in attracting further investment, and I encourage the parties to make significant progress in the current cross-party talks.

[Glyn Davies]

As a result of the autumn statement, 12,000 people in Northern Ireland will be lifted out of income tax altogether following the increase in personal allowances, and almost every home buyer will pay less stamp duty. Does my hon. Friend agree that the autumn statement will bring great benefit to the whole of Northern Ireland and its people?

[Dr Murrison]

Yes, I very much do. It is quite clear that we need to increase prosperity in Northern Ireland. Prosperity is the key to improving security, as indeed is security to the prosperity of Northern Ireland. It is worth noting the substantial amount of foreign direct investment that Northern Ireland is now attracting. It gets the UK’s second most FDI per head, with a 32% increase last year. Foreign investors are recognising that Northern Ireland is a great place in which to invest. The latest figures are extremely encouraging.

[Robert Jenrick]

I welcome the Chancellor’s announcement that corporation tax setting powers will be on their way to Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland economy is of course very heavily dependent on public sector jobs. What more can the Government do, using the corporation tax powers when they come, to encourage inward investment and innovation in Northern Ireland?

[Dr Murrison]

The Chancellor has expressed our desire to devolve that power to the Executive, and the Executive are keen to take it on. The extent to which it will impact on the Northern Ireland economy is of course a matter for the Executive—as is the level at which they wish to pitch corporation tax, once devolved—but they have suggested that up to 40,000 jobs might be created in Northern Ireland by having the power. It is particularly important for encouraging the private sector. As my hon. Friend will know, we are trying with the Executive to rebalance the economy so that the private sector is encouraged, and the devolution of corporation tax is an important part of that.

[Neil Carmichael]

Does the Minister agree that the Government’s key extra measure of focusing on skills and making sure that people are properly trained, coupled with business investment, is precisely the way to improve productivity and therefore living standards?

[Dr Murrison]

I absolutely agree. My hon. Friend will have noted that the changes to national insurance in particular in the autumn statement are very much focused on getting young people into employment. The national insurance rebate is extremely helpful for small business in particular. He will have read with pleasure, as I have, the list of firms that are increasing their presence or investing for the first time in Northern Ireland. It is truly impressive, and it just shows what a great place Northern Ireland now is in which to invest.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

The Minister rightly referred to the big increase in foreign direct investment under the Northern Ireland Executive in recent years, but does he agree that the Executive has to deal with many issues and problems that are unique to Northern Ireland? The legacy of the past causes a financial drag on the Executive—increased expenditure—and that has to be addressed by the parties and the Government in the talks this week.

[Dr Murrison]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct. The past still hangs heavy over Northern Ireland. For people of my generation, our image of Belfast in particular is of course shadowed by what we saw on the television screen all those years ago. Investors who are now looking to Northern Ireland still have those images in their minds, and we need to overcome that. The security situation is key to this, and the improvement in the security situation has been instrumental in making Northern Ireland look and feel a far better place in which to invest.

[Mr Dodds]

Does the Minister agree that, as we all accept, political stability is absolutely key in growing the economy in Northern Ireland and creating the conditions for economic prosperity? In his recent remarks in Enniskillen on 24 November, Gerry Adams said that his party was using equality to “break” Unionists—he actually used a foul-mouthed expletive at that point. He said that that was the republican strategy. Does the Minister agree that such language on the use of a policy such as equality is deeply offensive to everybody in Northern Ireland, undermines political stability and confidence and shows that Sinn Fein’s honeyed words and positive language sometimes mask a deeply disturbing policy?

[Dr Murrison]

I think Sinn Fein needs to be very careful about the language it uses, as indeed do all politicians. People are looking at Northern Ireland as a potential place to invest and are put off by that kind of posturing. It is very important that all parties work together to continue making Northern Ireland a great place to invest.

[Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab)]

As the Minister said, central to attracting business investment into Northern Ireland is political stability and leadership. In that context, the Opposition welcome the Prime Minister’s planned visit to Northern Ireland later this week and his intention to participate, alongside the Taoiseach, in the current all-party talks. Will the Minister assure the House that, alongside an agreement on the budget, including welfare reform, the Government are at the very least seeking to secure agreements on the past and on parades?

[Dr Murrison]

The talks are comprehensive, and it is hoped that their outcome will be ambitious. The hon. Gentleman is right that issues around the legacy of the past are central to what is being discussed in Stormont at the moment. I am hopeful that by the end of the week we will have a positive outcome, but all parties need to understand that this is part of a process and that they must remain engaged. Let us hope for some good news in a few days’ time.

[Mr Lewis]

I thank the Minister for that answer. Will he clarify whether the Government are linking the devolution of corporation tax solely to the parties reaching an agreement on next year’s budget? Surely the decision should be based on longer-term considerations such as the impact on jobs and growth and the block grant in Northern Ireland, as well as on the implications for the rest of the United Kingdom.

[Dr Murrison]

No, I think it is important that corporation tax is seen as part of a whole. It cannot be taken in isolation, and it is important that the Executive formulate a balanced budget that takes welfare reform into account. Without that balanced budget, it is difficult to see how we can reasonably devolve an important power such as that.

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

Just a week ago, the members of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee met Senator Gary Hart in Belfast. He was very positive in suggesting that it may well be possible to arrange a trade mission to come from America to Northern Ireland to see what the possibilities are. Will the Minister follow up such a suggestion?

[Dr Murrison]

I am very pleased that my hon. Friend has met Senator Gary Hart, who is very much part of the current talks process. Apropos my remarks earlier about foreign direct investment, I am pleased to say that it is going up dramatically, although clearly it is not enough, and we would like to see far more in Northern Ireland from America and elsewhere. I would certainly welcome such a proposition.

[Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)]

4. What recent assessment she has made of the security situation in Northern Ireland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

The safety of people and communities remains the Government’s top priority in Northern Ireland. Although the threat level in Northern Ireland remains at severe, excellent co-operation between the Police Service of Northern Ireland and its partners has put violent dissident republicans under strain in recent months. There have been a number of significant arrests, charges and convictions, which are helping to suppress the threat.

[Dr McCrea]

I thank the Minister for his update on the serious nature of the security threat from republican terrorists and the absolute necessity of defeating them.

Does the Minister also accept that there are those who violate the sanctity of the homes of elderly people living in our community, threatening and terrorising them? Should not those criminals get custodial sentences of at least seven years, irrespective of how little or how much they actually steal through their criminal activity?

[Dr Murrison]

I will not be drawn on matters that are outside my sphere of competence, and I would certainly defer to the Department of Justice for action on many of the issues that the hon. Gentleman raises. I know that the PSNI takes these matters extremely seriously, as do the Government, and appropriate action must be taken.

[Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP)]

Does the Minister agree that the greatest contribution to increasing overall security would be a successful and comprehensive outcome to the talks, which enter a vital period this week? It is important that we confront not only the problems of today but the wounds of the brutality and violence of the past. Is the Minister aware that a number of families are in Westminster today as part of their campaign looking for justice and for answers?

[Dr Murrison]

May I thank the hon. Gentleman, particularly for his contribution to the current talks? He is correct to say that the outcome of those talks will have a big impact on security in Northern Ireland, and we must all understand that. All parties must understand the extent of the stakes, because if this process fails I am afraid that the future will not look good. The positive developments that we have already discussed today cannot be guaranteed, so we must ensure that the talks have a positive, comprehensive outcome.

[Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (UKIP)]

Is the Minister satisfied that appropriate and, as necessary, enhanced security measures are in place over the festive season?

[Dr Murrison]

That is a matter for the Minister of Justice in the Executive and the Police Service of Northern Ireland. I know that as we approach Christmas the tempo of operations by dissidents in particular has a tendency to increase. The PSNI and the Department of Justice are aware of that and making appropriate preparations.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

There is a high level of dissident republican activity over Christmas and new year, and there is evidence that dissident republicans have direct contact with terrorist groups in north Africa and the middle east. Will the Minister outline what discussions have taken place with Governments from that region to ensure that the flow of weapons and bomb-making expertise is stopped?

[Dr Murrison]

Those matters are primarily for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, and she is in touch with relevant countries to ensure that the threat of terrorism from individuals from countries outside the United Kingdom is reduced as far as possible. The hon. Gentleman will be following closely the progress of the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill through this House, as that is relevant to the issue he raises.

[Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab)]

In recent weeks the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee heard from officials in Northern Ireland and the police service that cuts to budgets are already leading to long delays in the resolution of actions covered by the Historical Enquiries Team. Will the Minister look into that and ensure that no further cuts lead to people who should have had justice years ago having to wait even longer? People are already waiting three times longer than was originally scheduled.

[Dr Murrison]

The spending power of the Executive has increased since the beginning of this Parliament and will continue to do so. Spending within the police budget is a matter for the Chief Constable, who has set up the historical legacies team from the Historical Enquiries Team. A further body is under discussion as part of the current talks.

[Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab)]

I understand fully the concerns expressed by the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) about the recent horrendous attack in Lisburn on an elderly person, although I am not authorised to speak on sentencing policy on behalf of my party. The first responsibility of any Government in relation to Northern Ireland remains security. In the run-up to Christmas when threat levels are high, as other hon. Members have said, we owe a particular debt of gratitude to the brave men and women who serve in the Police Service of Northern Ireland. Looking ahead, what assessment has the Minister made of the impact of current and projected budget cuts on police numbers and public protection?

[Dr Murrison]

The deployment of police assets is a matter for the Chief Constable and the Department of Justice, which broadly takes its funding from two sources—the block grant, plus additional security funding provided by the UK Government, which, as the hon. Gentleman will know, amounts to £31 million in the next financial year. I know that the Chief Constable greatly values that additional resource to cover some of the additional security costs in Northern Ireland, but principal responsibility for the deployment of that resource rests and remains with the Minister of Justice.

[Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con)]

5. What assessment she has made of the level of transparency of political party funding in Northern Ireland; and if she will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

Political parties in Northern Ireland must report funding they receive to the Electoral Commission, but this is not published owing to the risk of donor intimidation. Legislation will be brought forward shortly to increase the information available about party funding in Northern Ireland, while still protecting donor identities.

[Mr Robathan]

Section 15A of the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006 makes provision for funding to be published and, thanks to the excellent Library, I have today read the Sinn Fein accounts, which told me next to nothing, needless to say. Sinn Fein’s money used to come from the IRA through nefarious activities. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is important for the integrity of the political process in Northern Ireland that we have transparency in political funding as soon as possible so that we can learn whether Sinn Fein is taking a legal approach?

[Dr Murrison]

I certainly agree with my right hon. Friend that transparency of funding of political parties is essential. Indeed, I see on the Sinn Fein website that it is the stated intention of that party itself. Although the material published on the Electoral Commission’s website in relation to Sinn Fein’s accounts is basic, I hope that the new legislation—in which my right hon. Friend was very much involved—will give us greater clarity, although it is important that donor identity is preserved.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

We had the scandal of the on-the-runs, we had the scandal that for 10 years people associated with one political party were involved in fuel smuggling to raise money, and we have the ongoing scandal of elected Members not taking their seats but receiving money from the House. When will the Government address that?

[Dr Murrison]

People considering how to cast their votes should pay particular attention to the work that their elected representatives do here. That increasingly appears to be the case and, given the current circumstances, I would have thought that it applied to Sinn Fein more than any.

[Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)]

While I wholly support the cross-party consensus on transparency in political funding in Northern Ireland, I would like a commitment from the Government that they will continually reassess the position. Until we have full transparency, Northern Ireland will not be wholly free.

[Dr Murrison]

We are all working towards complete normality in Northern Ireland. The assessment at the moment is that we are not there yet, and for security reasons we have to ensure that donors have anonymity. My hon. Friend must accept that, but it is an issue that needs to be kept under constant review. At some point—sooner rather than later, I hope—we will be able to normalise that aspect of election law across the United Kingdom.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

With the general election only five months away, can the Minister confirm that the Northern Ireland Office has already sought an assessment from the Chief Constable of the risk of violence to donors to political parties in Northern Ireland?

[Dr Murrison]

The provisions in the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act should protect the identity of donors, but if they wish to make themselves known through the Electoral Commission, they can do so. In the run-up to the general election, the security services in Northern Ireland are well aware of increased threats to individuals that may obtain, including those whom the hon. Lady mentions.

[Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)]

6. When the Government plan to publish an analysis of the potential effect of introducing a devolved rate of corporation tax in Northern Ireland.

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

8. When the Government plan to publish an analysis of the potential effect of introducing a devolved rate of corporation tax in Northern Ireland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

The autumn statement set out that the Government are in favour of devolving corporation tax powers to the Northern Ireland Assembly. If the powers were devolved, the Executive would be responsible for setting the rate of corporation tax in Northern Ireland. The effect would therefore be dependent on the approach taken by the Executive.

[Mr Brown]

What assessment has been made of the effect of the Government’s economic and welfare policies in Northern Ireland on the feasibility of devolving corporation tax? Can the Minister give the House a fuller explanation?

[Dr Murrison]

It is estimated by the Executive that the devolution of corporation tax, and the implementation of the cuts it envisages, would result in 40,000 new jobs in Northern Ireland, which is substantial. It will certainly help to improve and enhance the level of foreign direct investment, which I have touched on already. That is impressive, but it has to be sustained. It is particularly interesting to note that in the Office for National Statistics figures announced today, one of the highest sub-regional centres in the UK, in terms of gross value added per capita, is Belfast. We need to grow the economy in Belfast. The devolution of corporation tax would play an important part in that.

[Chris Evans]

Will the Minister give a guarantee that the devolution of corporation tax will not have an adverse effect on the block grant to the Northern Ireland Executive?

[Dr Murrison]

No, I cannot, because the EU Azores rules mean that it has to be taken into account.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Whenever the Minister is speaking with his right hon. Friends the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister, will he ensure that ongoing talks consider the possibility of additional resources, so that the skilled work force in Northern Ireland can become a pool of employees for inward investors who take advantage of corporation tax?

[Dr Murrison]

The hon. Gentleman will be familiar with the economic pact published about 18 months ago and updated during the summer, which gave significant new powers to promote the economy, in particular to grow jobs, and there was a significant amount of lending as a result. It has been successful. The groundwork has been laid and we have seen, in the figures I have quoted today, that it is having some level of success. Corporation tax will take that to the next level.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

10. Last week, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the figures on the cost of devolving power over corporation tax to the Northern Ireland Executive were given to the Executive. Will the Minister spell out to us the cost to the block grant and the timeline for implementation?

[Dr Murrison]

That very much depends on whether the powers are taken up by the Executive and the extent to which they are taken up. The hon. Lady will be aware that corporation tax in the last financial year raised in excess of £400 million. Were corporation tax to be devolved, and reduced as far as it possibly could be, then we are talking about that sort of figure.

[Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)]

13. Is the Minister aware that the Nevin Economic Research Institute warns that £400 million will have to be cut from public spending in Northern Ireland should corporation tax be moved there?

[Dr Murrison]

That is a matter for the Executive. They need to make a judgment on whether it will produce a net improvement to the economy in Northern Ireland. They have decided that it will create up to 40,000 extra jobs, so they clearly believe that corporation tax will have a net benefit to the economy of Northern Ireland, but they will have to find the money from the block grant.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

7. What assessment she has made of the effect in Northern Ireland of the introduction of the welfare cap.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

Welfare expenditure accounts for one-sixth of all public spending. The introduction of a UK welfare cap was overwhelmingly approved by 520 Members of this House, although I accept not by the hon. Gentleman. The cap ensures that social security expenditure remains fair to claimants and yet affordable to taxpayers in both Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

[Mark Durkan]

On welfare spending in Northern Ireland, what assurance can the Minister give that the operation of the cap will not entail a cap within a cap in ways that mean future benefit take-up campaigns will, for the first time, be at the expense of other benefits, which has never been the case in the past?

[Dr Murrison]

The hon. Gentleman is perhaps confusing the welfare cap with the benefit cap. It is important to note that the previous Minister in the Department for Social Development, Nelson McCausland, said that universal credit will lift 10,000 children out of poverty, and that most people in Northern Ireland will benefit from the change in the welfare rules. This has a substantial capacity to improve the lives of those who are reliant on welfare in Northern Ireland.

[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

9. What steps she is taking to tackle youth unemployment in Northern Ireland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

The November labour market survey reports that the unemployment rate in Northern Ireland for 18 to 24-year-olds has come down 5% over the year, and the Government are directly helping to get young people into work by abolishing national insurance contributions for businesses employing under-21s and apprentices aged under 25.

[Ann McKechin]

The Minister will be aware that unemployment in Northern Ireland is much higher than the UK average, and a recent survey by the Belfast Telegraph found that two thirds of young people wanted to leave Northern Ireland. What specific steps is he taking to improve skills and training to encourage young people to stay in Northern Ireland?

[Dr Murrison]

Of course, these are matters primarily for the Department for Employment and Learning, with which the Government work closely. I hope the hon. Lady will be aware of the economic plan published 18 months ago in collaboration with the Northern Ireland Executive laying out the steps that we would take jointly to promote a shared and integrated future, including the creation of the further education college at Craigavon. Further such measures will be considered. The important thing is to increase the number of apprenticeships in Northern Ireland, and the national insurance contributions announced in the autumn statement are an important part of that.

The Prime Minister was asked—

Debate on the Address

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Wednesday 9th May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hughes]

Absolutely, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for her commitment to families and women in her profession. She is right—we absolutely need to do that.

We outline in the Gracious Speech the support for those with special educational needs, adding to early-years places for the rising fives so that there is a commitment that 40% of rising fives will be able to have support before they go to school. So, there is much for hard-working, ordinary families and their children in the programme. It is not a programme without legislative plans at all—quite the reverse.

A defamation Bill will deal with the fact that our libel laws still restrict the liberty of speech in this country. I pay tribute in particular to my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), who has worked very hard to make sure that this Bill is in the legislative programme. There is a strong proposal for a National Crime Agency to deal with terrorists and people who do not have the interests of this country at heart. We also have proposals for community sentences for restorative justice. My right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) has been absolutely clear about the value of such sentences not just in reforming people but in value-for-money terms.

We have been careful about the difficult issue that the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) raised about data and how to deal with it. It is perfectly reasonable, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) said, to respond to the security services’ request that we make all species of communication areas of consideration for regulation of data control—not so that people can know what one is saying but so that we do not have no-go areas for the security services. We on the Liberal Democrat Benches will not sign up to legislation that will add to the intrusion into citizens’ lives that we saw so often from the Labour party when it was in government. Under Labour, we had a Big Brother state with identity cards and proposals for 90-day detention. Neither we nor the Conservatives are going down that road, and that is why there is a draft proposal, which we will look at carefully. Only if it is acceptable will it get through.

Let me say a word about the comments of the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) on gay marriage. May I say, as a member of the Church, that I think it is entirely reasonable that in a modern society in which we have accepted that both gay and straight couples should be able to have permanent, recognised relationships, the state should allow that to happen in an equal way? It happens in many other places in the world and it does not mean that any denomination of the Church or any other faith group has to accept that, endorse it or carry out such ceremonies in its buildings—it is simply about saying that the state recognises it when two people want to live their lives as adults together. This is not in the Gracious Speech and was never going to be, because the consultation has not ended. However, we should recognise that there is a civil liberties issue at stake for many of our constituents. We should not forget that. I bet there are people in every constituency in the United Kingdom who want us to make sure that this issue remains on the agenda.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

Many people will have written to the right hon. Gentleman, as they have written to me, about this issue. Does he agree that when it is explained to people that there is a clear difference between a civil marriage and a religious marriage in terms of what is proposed, most of them are reassured? It is our duty to point that out.

[Simon Hughes]

The hon. Gentleman is exactly right; that is exactly the experience I have had. I have Evangelical Christian friends who are concerned about this issue, but when one explains that it does not suddenly make something sacramental if that is not what the Church or what the individual believes, they are reassured. It is a similar issue—I say this respectfully—as that of tax advantages for people who are married and those who are not married. In our book, if a couple have lived together for 25 years but have not married, they should enjoy the same position in the tax system as those who have chosen to marry. We have to respect people’s different life choices as adults.

Those issues are all important, but the most important legislative proposal for my constituents in a constituency that faces the City of London from across the river is none of those—it is banking reform. It is about making sure that we divide the banks into retail banks that will deal with people’s day-to-day business and separate them from the speculative, international playing with money that has brought us to the state we are in. In my view, the most important aspect of that Bill, for which my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary’s Department is also responsible, is that which allows shareholders to control the scandal of executive pay. This week, we have at last seen the beginning of a change in attitudes at the top; shareholder power has at last begun to be exerted. We absolutely need to give shareholders the power not only to advise and express their view but to say, “I’m sorry—if you don’t perform, you are not getting the money.” What has happened previously has resulted from an “if you scratch my back I’ll scratch yours” attitude in the boardrooms, with people offering each other packages and salaries that are beyond the comprehension of most of our constituents. It was obscene and it is unacceptable, but it was allowed, encouraged and developed under a Labour Government, and that should be to their eternal shame.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Murrison]

Will the hon. Gentleman explain how high interest rates will stimulate growth?

[Mr Wright]

High interest rates do not stimulate growth, but, equally, low interest rates indicate that there is no economic stimulus whatever. We need a rounder, more holistic approach to economic policy that focuses not solely on reducing the deficit, but on making sure that we can stimulate the economy to embark on jobs and growth.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), who has once more shown that he is a master of his brief. His remarks about care were thoughtful. Over the coming weeks, we can develop some of the thoughts he has expounded, and undoubtedly he will make an important contribution to this debate, if he has not done so already.

I am tempted into the arena of reform of the other place. I will be honest: it is the least of my worries. As we all know, it began in 1911, and for all I know, in the next century we will still be talking about it—well, we will not, but others will be. I recall the valiant efforts of the late Robin Cook, for example, who was effectively stitched up to fail by the Labour Whips. There are very powerful forces at work within and without the usual channels, so let us not get too excited about sudden reform.

I am sure that Members will recognise, however, that the other place needs reform. Clearly, any Chamber with even a partly hereditary principle has got to be wrong and due for reform, but how do we reform it? Each suggestion seems to have consequences we have not thought about. For example, would elected or appointed Members next door have the same validity, legitimacy and so on? If we empower the other Chamber, will we have a political boxing match with them all the time as we often have within this Chamber? I am sure that we will address those questions, but personally I will not hold my breath in expectation of imminent reform—although I might be wrong, as I often am.

That is not to say that I favour the status quo, but I do foresee problems—some visible ones, some undercurrents —that could stymie our debate. We might come up with wonderful solutions, but with the best will in the world, will they happen? [Interruption.] Does the hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) wish to intervene? I would be pleased to accept an intervention. [Interruption.] It was just the way he was sitting. I beg his pardon.

[Dr Murrison]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his invitation to intervene. He referred to excitement in his remarks. How much did he detect across the country in the run-up to the recent elections? I looked but could not find any.

[Mr Llwyd]

The hon. Gentleman has hit an interesting note. The good people of Dwyfor Meirionnydd were hugely underwhelmed at the thought of House of Lords reform, given that there were at least another 210 subjects they wanted to talk about first.

For what they are worth, I shall leave those comments on Lords reform up in the air—pointless, as they may well be.

The Gracious Speech contained several interesting proposals, but as always the devil is in the detail. Nevertheless, I shall speak on the basis of what I know now of the speech. First, though, I would like to congratulate Her Majesty on her reign and on having been an excellent monarch for many years. I fully welcome the Government’s intention to bring in the groceries ombudsman—I think that is what it is called—in the Gracious Speech. Many of us throughout the House have championed such a thing for a long time. I first came to it in about 2004—2005 possibly—and many people in the Chamber and outside have argued similarly.

As we know, a draft Bill was published and scrutinised during the last Session and might well be the basis of the legislation coming before us shortly. Ministers in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, I and everyone in the Chamber are aware of the crisis in the milk industry, for example. We need an ombudsman with real powers and teeth to tackle these problems, as the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) said. We owe it not only to the farming community but to the many other suppliers to ensure that the ombudsman can act to good effect. Unless we do that, I am afraid that the measure might prove a damp squib.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Llwyd]

Well, with something else. [Interruption.]

The farmer came to an agreement with one of the large supermarkets. Believe it or not, it came out like this: the supplier was allowed 1.5p profit per litre of water, but the water was sold by the supermarket for more than 80p. He declined to do it. That 1.5p included travelling from mid-Wales across to Shropshire to deliver the water every day. It simply was not worth his while, yet apparently those terms are typical. We need to get to grips with these issues, otherwise all our home producers —of good vegetables, apples and so on—will say, “Well, it’s not worth it. We’re packing up.” That is the last thing we want.

[Dr Murrison]

I agree absolutely with the right hon. Gentleman’s remarks about producers and farmers. Of course, my constituents, many of whom farm, would expect me to say that. However, my constituents also require good value for money from supermarkets. Does he agree that it is important that supermarkets can apply pressure to large multinational chains that produce goods and from which consumers need good value? There is a clear difference between the two.

[Mr Llwyd]

Yes, and one hopes that the ombudsman will be involved in that scenario as well. We shall no doubt consider the Bill shortly, and I hope that that aspect will be covered; otherwise, we will be doing only half the job. I agree with what the hon. Gentleman says.

I shall move on swiftly to the notion of televising court proceedings, which has not yet been mentioned. As a lawyer, I am not in favour of televising advocates, because there could be a danger of their playing to the gallery. I am not saying that many would do so, but some might. I understand, however, that the proposals will follow the Scottish model, which would be very sensible. They would confine the televising to the judge’s summing up and sentencing remarks. That would be helpful, because sentencing remarks give out not only a warning to the public but an indication to practitioners of the penalties that certain offences attract. A period of experimentation would be helpful in this regard.

Much has been said about the recent flurry of activity from active shareholders in companies such as Trinity Mirror and Aviva. I will not rehearse those arguments, but I hope that we will see a strengthening of shareholder democracy. It is abominable that share values can go down while bonuses go up. That makes no sense whatever. We also believe in a maximum wage, with a set differential between those at the top of a company and those at the bottom. That is not a new idea. In fact, it was first floated by the successful financier J. P. Morgan more than 100 years ago. It seems to work well in many spheres, and I would like to see it happening in this context. I would also support workers’ representation in the boardroom, to provide perspective for companies on remuneration and on the business of the company in general. Perhaps we can learn from structures that are already in place in successful countries such as Germany.

I wholeheartedly welcome the notion of the separation of retail and investment banking. The Chancellor will know that that proposal has the support of the whole House; it is long overdue.

Proposals have been put forward for a single-tier pension and, from what I have heard, that seems a good idea. We floated the idea in 2010, with what we called the living pension. This seems to be a similar idea and, whatever it is called, if it is pitched reasonably, it will be a good measure. We all have examples of widows telling us that they have missed three or four years’ work while they brought up their children, and that they are now condemned to receiving a much lower state pension. A single-tier pension would be simpler to administer and better all round. I welcome the notion, at least, although we will need to look into the details that will no doubt appear before long.

On the proposals for procedural changes to adoption, there is certainly a case for ensuring that youngsters who come up for adoption are taken care of with the minimum of fuss and delay. Delay only adds to the heartache. I have no doubt that we all have the best interests of the children at heart, but we must remember that 40% of our courts have now been shut down and tens of thousands of court staff have been laid off. Those staff would have assisted families in their first encounter with the court process. In addition, hundreds of people at the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service—which prepares reports on families involved in placement and, ultimately, adoption—have also gone, and there have been huge cuts in the probation service. There have been cuts in social services as well. How are we going to improve the adoption service against the background of those cuts? I think that there will be problems ahead. I hope that we will be able to achieve those improvements, because there is certainly a case for doing so, but I am afraid that there will be problems.

I can add nothing to what the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) said about the proposals for internet surveillance. He put forward his views on them in the clearest possible way. I actually believe that there is a case for surveillance to enable the security services to carry out their work, but there must be safeguards in place. I am sure that we will be able to discuss that matter further. The proposals for secret courts are doomed to failure from the beginning. What the right hon. Gentleman did not say—unintentionally, no doubt—was that several special advocates have resigned, over the years, because they find the concept so one-sided and unjust that they do not want to be part of it. Should we be perpetuating and extending that system? The answer, quite frankly, is no, and anyone with any concern for the court process would undoubtedly say that that is the proper response.

I am surprised that there was no mention in the speech of the High Speed 2 rail link. We have heard a lot about it over the past few months, but it seems to have gone to ground for the time being. I was rather looking forward to Wales receiving a Barnett formula consequential of around £1.9 billion, which could be spent on improving transport infrastructure across Wales and electrifying the lines that sorely need it.

Libya/European Council

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Monday 28th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman makes a vitally important point. We want to do everything we can to try to make sure that people can access independent media, which have had a huge impact on these events. But also, frankly, we should take a tougher approach to Libyan state television, which, as far as I can see, is actually working on behalf of the regime that is terrorising and brutalising its own civilians. The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point that we should pursue urgently.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend is aware of the relatively peaceful progress being made in the Kingdom of Morocco, in sharp contrast to the situation in much of the rest of region. Will he ensure that we give every encouragement to Morocco following the very positive speech by King Mohammed VI which outlined constitutional and judicial reform in his country?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. The last European Council—there have been quite a lot of them—which was specifically about north Africa, the middle east and the events in Libya, mentioned the excellent speech by the king of Morocco specifically. At a time when many countries in the area are trying to reform, we should encourage those who are engaging in dialogue and reform, and not treat all these countries in the same way.

EU Council and North Africa

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Monday 7th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point. That is one of the reasons why the Foreign Secretary is getting on an aeroplane this afternoon, going to Tunisia and talking to the Tunisians about helping to put in place the building blocks of a free and open society. One of the problems in these countries is the massive level of corruption. It was that which angered their populations so much, and we need to work with them. Going back to the issue of Libya and Northern Ireland, of course everyone had to hold their nose and talk to people we did not want to talk to and deal with people we did not want to deal with, but Governments were pretty frank about what we were doing and why we were doing it. That is my point.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

It is important that we do nothing to talk up the prospect of wider instability in north Africa and the Maghreb. Does my right hon. Friend share my dismay at less than forensic reports in the western press that seek to conflate inherently unstable countries such as Egypt and Tunisia with countries such as Morocco, which have a far more enlightened order economically, socially and politically?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. We should not assume that those countries are all the same. Genuine stability should be based on the progressive realisation of the goal of a more open society and the building blocks of the sort of civil society that we recognise. We cannot pretend, as neo-conservatives did, that we solve the problems in one go simply by holding an election. We should be clear, as people who believe in those rights at home, that we should be trying to achieve them progressively elsewhere.