Ofsted’s Work with Schools
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts(7 months ago)
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Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. This House is both the best and worst workplace in the world for those with a disability or disadvantage. The reason I raise this is that constantly lifts do not work, buttons do not work in lifts, doors do not work properly and toilets are always out of order and take months to fix. Just below the Chamber on the lower ground floor there are toilets that have been out for almost six months on end and no one ever seems to be there doing anything to fix them. This is not acceptable any longer.
I have been here for 14 years and, while every single member of staff is incredibly kind, especially the Doorkeepers, I find it incredible that things have got worse over the past 14 years in terms of doors being shut, lifts not working, buttons not working, lift doors not working, toilets being out of order, and people who should not be using disabled toilets using them. We do nothing about it, yet we publish press statements saying we are inclusive and diverse employers but that means nothing to anyone. So may I urge you, Madam Deputy Speaker, Mr Speaker and the other Deputy Speakers to look at this issue with the Serjeant at Arms and get these facilities fixed once and for all so that people with disadvantages can go about their business without having to worry about doors being shut and toilets being broken and the other things I have mentioned?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
As the right hon. Gentleman may know, it might be appropriate to raise those matters with the Administration Committee as well, but I will certainly ensure that his comments are fed back. The Deputy Serjeant at Arms is present, and I am sure that he will be one of those feeding it back. I am very sorry to hear of the experiences that the right hon. Gentleman has described. Of course it is right that those facilities should be in good working order, and that there should be proper provision for people with disabilities.
Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Madam Deputy Speaker
We really should not be having too many points of order at this stage, but I will take the hon. Lady’s point of order if it relates to something that has just been said.
Margaret Greenwood
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Following what was said by the right hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), I wanted to add that I have recently noticed that additional security doors have been introduced around the estate, and they require a pass to be swiped. There is nothing to enable blind or partially sighted people to understand that, and in an emergency it could cost them their lives. Could this be added to the list of things that you will feed back, Madam Deputy Speaker?
SEND Provision and Funding
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts(10 months, 2 weeks ago)
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Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I would just like to explain to colleagues how we intend to proceed this afternoon. We have two very well-subscribed debates and I will try to ensure that all Back Benchers have a fairly equal opportunity across the afternoon. The guidance is that the opening speeches are to be between 10 and 15 minutes. I advise that, in order to be fair to everybody, we will start off with the guidance that six minutes will allow everybody an equal opportunity from the Back Benches. If people cannot stick to that, I will have to put on a time limit, but I think that will ensure that everybody gets a good chance to contribute.
Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Sir David Davis), who did a superb job of setting out the strategic argument for more funding for those with special educational needs. I hope that we will get some hint from Ministers that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has heard the calls from parents across the country, and that more revenue funding and, crucially, more capital funding will be made available.
I want to raise a series of parochial issues that are nevertheless relevant to the more strategic arguments advanced by the right hon. Gentleman. Let me say at the outset that I entirely recognise from my own casework the stories of parents and their difficulties in obtaining support for their children with special educational needs. I am sure that is the experience of everyone in this House.
At the outset, I acknowledge the skill and commitment of those who work with and teach children with special educational needs, both in my constituency and across the country. Teachers are remarkable at the best of times but, like other school staff, they are not valued enough. They are fundamental to the future of our country and to the future of the vulnerable young people we are talking about today.
I am fortunate that Harrow is blessed with good special schools. Alexandra School in south Harrow, in my constituency, is particularly good, but Shaftesbury High School, Kingsley High School and Woodlands School are also very effective. I commend their staff to the House. I also acknowledge the impressive performance of special educational needs co-ordinators and other staff who support young people in Harrow’s mainstream school settings.
There is a clear need for a new 300-place special school in Harrow. The four special schools I mentioned face serious financial difficulties, and more investment is needed for the young people in Harrow’s mainstream schools to get the support they need. Harrow has seen a 55% increase in the number of young people with EHCPs over the last five years, and Harrow Council estimates that the figure is likely to increase by about 100 a year. The four special schools in Harrow have just under 500 places between them, but 700 young people a year from my community are being placed in special schools. The council already relies on finding placements for vulnerable children with special educational needs in out-of-borough schools and private special schools that are further away from their family settings.
As I understand it, Harrow already has a much greater reliance on private SEN schools than the national average. There is very little space to expand the borough’s four special schools, and Harrow is unfortunately surrounded by neighbouring boroughs that are also seeing very significant increases in the number of young people with significant special educational needs. Pressure is also rising fast on the private and independent schools catering for those with special educational needs on which Harrow might draw.
That means that a much higher proportion of Harrow’s high needs budget is being spent on significantly more expensive placements than would be spent if an additional special school were built in the borough. As I understand it, my council is now worried that there will be further significant fee increases for those schools, placing even greater pressure on the existing special needs budget.
The Department for Education has turned down Harrow’s application for a special school three times, even though the Department accepts that it was an effective bid and worthy of funding, had funding been available—hence the urgent need for more capital funding.
Finally, I underline the point that special schools in Harrow, and I suspect across the country, are already facing serious financial problems. I understand that the National Network of Specialist Provision has revealed that 80% of special schools responding to its survey reported a budget deficit in year one of their financial cycle, rising to 90% in year two. The average size of that deficit is £145,000 in year one, which has huge implications for school budgets. That needs to be urgently addressed in the forthcoming Budget.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I call the Chair of the Education Committee.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I thank the two opening speakers for being nearly within time. I remind Members that my guidance is that they should speak for six minutes. I call Ian Lavery.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
It may be helpful if I actually put the clock on, or else other Members wishing to speak will have their time cut down.
Cost of Living and Brexit
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts(1 year, 5 months ago)
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John Lamont
I have not complained about the SNP bringing forward this debate. The cost of living is an issue facing every single one of us in this House and each one of the households and residents we represent here. What I am complaining about is SNP Members laughing and trying to shout down Government Members just because they do not agree with the points we are making. I also disagree with the fact that, when we should be talking about the measures that both Governments in Scotland are taking to address the cost of living, SNP Members choose to talk about independence, rather than anything else. Your obsession—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. I do not have an obsession. If the Minister is saying that he is not going to take interventions, Members should please not just stand up and shout at him. I am sure the Minister will indicate if he wants to give way, but Members should not keep standing up for too long, because otherwise it is difficult to hear what he is saying.
John Lamont
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My frustration is with SNP Members’ continual focus on independence, rather than on the measures that both Governments of Scotland—the UK Government and the Scottish Government—should be taking to address those challenges that all our constituents are facing. Yet again, SNP Members focus on independence.
The SNP argues that the Scottish Government do not have the financial powers required to mitigate the increases to the cost of living. I strongly suggest that that is simply not the case. The UK Government are providing the Scottish Government with a record block grant settlement of £41 billion a year. In real terms, that is the highest settlement since the start of devolution for Scotland. The spring Budget provided the Scottish Government with £320 million over the next two years, and that is on top of the £1.5 billion of additional funding we provided at the autumn statement in 2022. This funding is still set to grow in real terms over the spending review period.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. Excuse me, but before the Minister has even answered that point, it is not really fair to ask him to give way straightaway.
John Lamont
Scotland is already a normal country, despite what the hon. Member for Glasgow East might suggest. Talking down Scotland is not something I am here to do; I am very proud to promote Scotland. If the SNP Government in Edinburgh perhaps used some of the powers they are responsible for, then some of the challenges in the Scottish economy and in other aspects of Scottish society that we are dealing with would not be as great as they are. I am very clear that what this Parliament should be focused on is how the Scottish Government, along with the other devolved Administrations, could and should work with this United Kingdom Government to build a better future for the people of Scotland.
The SNP motion to establish a Select Committee to look at the cost of living crisis is not only unnecessary duplication of other work by this Parliament, but a complete waste of taxpayers’ money. The total anticipated cost to the House of Commons of this crackpot idea is in the region of £463,000 per annum. In addition, there would be extra costs to adapt Parliament’s Committee Rooms to accommodate this massive new Committee. I suggest that that would be a complete and utter waste of taxpayers’ money.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. Before I call the shadow Secretary of State, let me provide a little bit of guidance. This debate has to finish by 4.20 pm, so I suspect the wind-ups will start at about 4 o’clock. That means speeches of about 10 minutes each would be a good guide to make sure that everybody gets in. I call the shadow Secretary of State.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Before I call the next speaker, just a reminder, as there is quite a lot of intervening going on: if a colleague makes an intervention on another Member, it is important to stay for the whole of that Member’s speech and to have been present at the beginning. It is just courteous.
David Duguid
Well, I voted against Brexit, but as a democratic country, we moved on and left the EU. As the hon. Member for Edinburgh South said, to leave the EU without voting for a deal—[Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. I completely understand that there are a lot of interventions, but I am conscious that many other people want to speak. Some of those who are standing now wanting to intervene have not put in to speak. It is quite a long time since the hon. Gentleman started his speech and he has taken a lot of interventions.
David Duguid
Thank you for your clarification, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) for bringing me a glass of water. I was glad of it because, as hon. Members will have noticed, I have a bit of a frog in my throat today.
To finish, I will repeat some of the main issues that are often misrepresented in our ongoing relationship with the EU. Compared to 2018, when the UK was in the EU, we are about even on trade exports to the EU—a fraction below in goods, but considerably higher for services. The biggest factor in any fluctuations in UK trade exports to the EU in the intervening years was due to coronavirus.
UK trade exports to the EU have increased year on year by 24%, which is part of the post-covid recovery that demonstrates that covid was the biggest factor in those trade issues. That was 24% year on year for UK trade exports, but Scotland’s exports to the EU have increased by 28%, including record exports in whisky and salmon—other fish are available, as I often remind people—so Scotland is actually doing better than the rest of the UK in the ongoing trade with the EU.
It is crucial for Scotland and the UK’s interests to increase exports, not only in the EU but around the whole world, and not focus solely on Europe. We could not commit to both EU and non-EU free trade agreements when we were a member of the EU. Outside the EU, there is a huge opportunity and presence to increase trade exports with Latin America, including Chile, as well as with India, Mexico and Malaysia, and other states in the CPTPP. Going to non-EU countries seizes more untapped market space and more export growth than going to any EU country, where we already have, and continue to have, a significant presence.
With that, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will finish my remarks, with great disappointment, but I really have to have another drink of water.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. We are now down to about nine minutes for each speech.
Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP)
We can all agree that the cost of living crisis is connected to other social and economic disasters, but public services have been undermined by more than a decade of austerity, with devolved Governments, social security benefits and the National Health Service bearing the brunt.
The UK’s dependence on fossil fuels, under-investment in renewables, reduced gas storage and failure to regulate the energy market meant the nations of these islands faced unprecedented price rises from early 2022, despite being much less dependent on Russian gas than our European neighbours. Inflation triggered by reopening the economy in the aftermath of the covid-19 upheaval was augmented by supply chain disruption, with food particularly affected. We have had too many years of Torynomics, looking out for the wealthy at the expense of those who can least afford to live, and that was before the bombshell car crash of a Budget experiment towards the end of last year.
I see the effects of these decisions every day in my Midlothian constituency. New figures have laid bare the full scale of the problems facing my constituents in Midlothian. Last year, there were more than 4,500 children living in poverty in my constituency, according to End Child Poverty. Last month, more than 1,300 people were claiming unemployment related benefits. Around 250 of these claimants were aged 18 to 24. Up to 21,000 adults living in Midlothian cannot afford to turn on the heat in their homes to keep warm or to eat a balanced meal, a report found.
We heard about some of those issues on Monday, at the launch of the all-party parliamentary group on coalfield communities, of which I am a vice-convener. This is not a new phenomenon in our coalfield communities but a legacy of Thatcher that we have never recovered from and that successive Governments have done nothing to tackle.
It is estimated that as many as 34,000 people were worried about energy bills. The same survey found that in one month alone, 8,000 adults went hungry because they did not have enough money to buy food. Those figures, presented to a meeting of Midlothian Council last month, come from an independent study ordered by that council’s cost of living taskforce, set up last summer. With residents facing this cost of living crisis, it is clear that has quickly become the biggest priority for our SNP-led council and why it has invested more than £1.3 million in direct help to residents across Midlothian. It is hard to imagine a much worse scenario, but then there is Brexit.
Even the usually staid publication, The Lancet, says the Brexit fiasco is one of the central elements at the core of this cost of living crisis. It impacts not just our constituents and their households, but the Scottish Government, other devolved Governments and local government across the country. They are all facing the same inflation costs, increased costs of capital projects and increased energy bills that are all a drain on limited and fixed budgets. That is certainly the case with the Scottish Government, who do not have the borrowing power of this place or even of local government.
As well as laying bare the massive public health impacts of the cost of living crisis, a recent article in The Lancet says:
“There are several factors driving this crisis. The most immediate trigger is high inflation, partially a consequence of trade disruption associated with the conflict in Ukraine, superimposed on the impact of Brexit and associated fall in the value of the pound, which is leading to a rise in the costs of energy, food, and other essential resources for life.”
The Lancet also makes the ominous point that this is just the beginning and there is more to come. We have heard others talk about the impact on mortgage rates. Because of the tendency to set fixed rates, many people are still to come up against the worst of the increases.
My hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford) talked about the impact of staff shortages on our public services. How can we have a situation where impactful decisions taken in this place can have such a direct consequence for communities across our isles? Those are chilling words from The Lancet, which make it ever more baffling that the Government persist with the failed Brexit project, and even more so that Labour want to continue to do more of the same.
As the SNP’s armed forces and veterans spokesperson, I am acutely aware of the impact that the cost of living crisis has on our men and women in uniform. Serving military personnel and their families have been forced to use food banks and there are serious questions to be answered around the pay offer to our armed forces.
This week, Sky News revealed that an unofficial food bank even exists at a Royal Air Force base in Lincolnshire. The voluntary facility at RAF Coningsby, home to Typhoon fast jet squadrons, was set up by an aviator to collect food donations from servicemen and women to support civilians in their local community, but a defence source claimed it is now being used by RAF personnel too. Despite the much-vaunted armed forces covenant, we now have a situation where service personnel need to choose between food or fuel. The crisis is impacting on so many places where people would never have thought that would be the case. According to the reports, one aviator, a single mum, was forced to go without a hot meal for four days because she had spent her last money on baby milk formula.
This place, the Tories and their Brexit-supporting Labour pals, need to take responsibility for this utter clusterbourach. In Scotland, we are fortunate that we have a path out of the chaos. We can become independent. I know the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (David Duguid) will be delighted that I have said that, because he was waiting for it. We have the opportunity to elect progressive Governments that can implement all the levers that a normal nation can in taking forward their own destiny as a member of the European Union. As we work towards that goal, we desperately need an inquiry led in this place to reveal the full extent of the devastation wrought by Brexit and the cost of living crisis. Why would we not want to get to the bottom of why these problems are happening? That is the only way for Scotland to weather this perfect storm. I look forward to the day when we can get the answers we need, but much more important, I look forward to the day when we can make our own decisions in Scotland.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I now have to announce the results of today’s deferred Division.
On the draft Animal By-Products, Pet Passport and Animal Health (Fees) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2023, the Ayes were 284 and the Noes were 14, so the Ayes have it.
[The Division list is published at the end of today’s debates.]
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. I am conscious that there are four more speakers and the wind-ups will start at 4 pm. Please bear that in mind. I call Brendan O’Hara.
Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts(1 year, 8 months ago)
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Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I emphasise that it is not fair on others when Members do not stick to the guidance given by the Chairman of Ways and Means, which was for seven-minute speeches. That may well have to go down. I urge colleagues to be mindful of that advice. I call Sir George Howarth.
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Section 35 Power
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts(1 year, 10 months ago)
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John Lamont
As I have made clear repeatedly, it was always intended that at moments such as this, when unintended consequences of legislation being passed by the Scottish Parliament would have an impact across the United Kingdom, section 35 of the Scotland Act would give us the opportunity to act in this way. The letter from the Secretary of State to the First Minister is clear about the amendments that can be made to the Bill to allow it to be approved by the Scottish Parliament and to meet the concerns about the impact it will have on other parts of the UK. We want very much to work with the Scottish Government constructively to secure those amendments so that legislation that meets our concerns can be passed, and we hope that the First Minister and the Scottish Government will bring back the amended Bill for reconsideration by the Scottish Parliament.
I hope that Opposition Members will acknowledge that the United Kingdom Government have set out their desire to work with the Scottish Government to find a constructive way in which to amend this Bill so that it can be passed by the Scottish Government and given Royal Assent.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. Before I call the next speaker, I point out that this debate has to finish by 5.27 pm, so I am introducing a time limit. I will start with five minutes, but it will go down after that if necessary.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. After the next speaker, I will drop the time limit to four minutes. I have absolutely no problem with colleagues taking interventions, but please remember that it leaves less time for others to speak. I call Ian Blackford.
Miriam Cates
No, because I have only four minutes.
The naivety that the Bill has been written with is astounding and hugely worrying. The reduction of the age limit to 16 is a significant safeguarding risk, because the human brain does not stop developing until about the age of 25. People cannot drive a car when they are 16—in fact, there are an awful lot of things that people are not legally allowed to do when they are 16 because they cannot assess the long-term implications for their welfare. Changing legal gender, with a potential route to long-term changes to fertility, sexual function and health, is not suitable for 16-year-olds and is a huge safeguarding risk.
Paragraphs 30 and 48 mention membership on the grounds of sex and single-sex spaces. Sex Matters recently did a report that looked at the impact on single-sex spaces of men’s ability to access them by changing their gender. Women say, “I never went back to that swimming pool,” or, “I never went back to that counselling class,” because for many of them, the dignity of having a women-only space and knowing that there will be no men there is important. We will see a chilling effect on important single-sex rights if the Bill passes. As a woman, I fully understand the threats to dignity and safety that the Bill poses, because it will change the social contract. In this country, we recognise that in toilets, changing rooms and public spaces, there are areas where only women are allowed.
In a restaurant recently, I had an experience where a man dressed as a woman walked into the toilets where I was on my own. He stood behind me and stared at me in the mirror, looking me in the eye. I have no idea whether he intended me any harm, but my evolved instinct as a woman was to be frightened, because unlike in almost any other species, women are far less powerful than men and we cannot defend ourselves. [Interruption.] No, it is a fact. The difference in strength between men and women is phenomenal, which is why we have separate sex categories for sport. Women are evolved to be wary of men in intimate spaces, which is why we have single-sex spaces and why they must continue to exist for the safety and privacy of women. The Bill threatens that social contract.
Finally, this threatens the understanding of our law, which should be based on fact, and someone cannot change their sex any more than they can change their place of birth or who their parents are. I fully understand the complex arguments involved and we should treat this with compassion, but if the law is not based on fact, then how can we trust the law? That is why the Government are absolutely right to serve this notice.
Sir Peter Bottomley
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Did you hear anything transphobic in the previous speech?
Madam Deputy Speaker
I have to say to the Father of the House that different Members of this House will interpret speeches in different ways. I suggest that we move on quickly, and I think the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle) needs to calm down, moderate his language and move on to the substance of the debate, otherwise I will ask him to resume his seat.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is difficult when we are talking about these emotional matters.
The reality of this is that this section 35 is the new Tories’ section 28. It is their continuation of a war against a group of people—their culture war—that they want to pursue, and they think it will advantage them in the polls. That is what the Australian Conservatives thought as well and what the Republicans in the US thought, but I trust it will not, because the people do not like the bigotry that we hear from the other side.
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. Could I just say to the hon. Gentleman that we are very short of time and I hope that, if he takes an intervention, he will stick to the four minutes?
Alicia Kearns
I recognise that the hon. Gentleman feels very strongly about this, but I would ask him to use caution about labelling a party as solely one thing, because it is Conservative party colleagues who led for the conversion therapy ban that has been announced today. When I was elected, no other MP talked about it for seven months, and we have delivered it today. I caution him to please not label all Members on certain sides of the House as transphobic or homophobic, and I also challenge anyone being labelled that in this House.
Alicia Kearns
I question some elements of the Bill, in particular why the amendment regarding anyone being charged or on trial for sexual offences should be excluded—I think that was madness. But I would question one part of my hon. Friend’s argument. What evidence is there that by a man becoming a woman, he somehow has more privileged access to children than he currently does as a man? That is what I cannot understand in his argument.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. The hon. Lady has not been here for the whole debate, and I am getting concerned that people who have been here will not get in. I will reduce the time limit to three minutes, and I urge the hon. Member for South Thanet (Craig Mackinlay) to bring his remarks to a close, because otherwise he will have taken a lot more time than that.
Craig Mackinlay
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns). I could go into quite a story about a nurse, a transsexual woman, who was presented to a constituent of mine and their daughter for an intimate examination, but that is a story for another day and I do not have time to examine it here.
I am concerned that the process for obtaining a GRC would be much easier and much reduced under the Bill, as opposed to what I think has been a well debated, well rehearsed, and settled argument across the UK up to this date. The settled will has been that a GRC can be obtained where someone has lived as a different sex for two years, had some medical advice and intervention and guaranteed that they shall live in that way for the rest of their days. I think that is sensible; I am fully in agreement with that.
As I said, I am a libertarian Conservative, so I really do not mind what people want to do, but this is an issue about section 35 of the Scotland Act. The Bill would change the Equality Act 2010 and change how we live. I support the Government.
Charlotte Nichols
I will not give way, actually. I think we have heard more than enough—
Nick Fletcher
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I ask the hon. Member to withdraw that and refer to Hansard. That is not what I said; that is an outright lie.
Madam Deputy Speaker
No, no; the hon. Gentleman must qualify that. I think he meant that the hon. Lady may have unintentionally misled the House.
Madam Deputy Speaker
With regard to the point of order, which obviously the hon. Gentleman was addressing to me to say that he felt that what had been said was incorrect, my response is that if the hon. Lady at any point feels, when she goes back to look at the debate, that what she has said has unintentionally misled the House, she will correct the record. I am taking her word for it that she will do that.
Charlotte Nichols
Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. On checking Hansard, I see that the hon. Member actually said that Dr Who being a woman was turning boys towards a life of crime. Clearly, it was a matter of misogyny rather than homophobia. However, I am very sorry for having inadvertently misled the House in accusing the hon. Member, in a very legitimate comment that I made about his brand-new respect for our equality legislation, in having made a remark that was misogynist rather than, in fact, homophobic. I apologise for that omission.
BBC Local Radio
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts(1 year, 11 months ago)
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Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. My plan is to get everybody in, which we can do comfortably if colleagues speak for no more than about 10 minutes, as they did in the previous debate.
Scottish Referendum Legislation: Supreme Court Decision
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts(2 years ago)
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Mr Jack
This idea that a mandate was delivered in 2021 in the Holyrood elections is completely misleading. As the First Minister herself said very clearly in an interview in The Herald—this is when she thought that the former First Minister, the previous SNP leader Alex Salmond, was gaming the system with his party Alba—that parties should stand on both the list and first-past-the-post constituency systems. The Greens did not fulfil that and neither did Alba. Let us be clear: in the 2021 Holyrood elections—the so-called mandate—less than one third of the Scottish electorate voted for the SNP.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I call the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. The hon. Gentleman cannot just sit there yelling. It is a really bad look. I call Amy Callaghan.
Amy Callaghan (East Dunbartonshire) (SNP)
I will ask the Secretary of State the same question that I asked the Prime Minister just a short while ago, to which I am still waiting for an answer. What is the route for a nation to leave this so-called voluntary Union? He has answered three times now referring to a majority of votes, so would the Government respect the result of a general election as a de facto referendum?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. The more people yell out, the further down the order they will go. I call Alan Brown.
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
We are supposed to be living in a parliamentary democracy. As such, last year the SNP won 62 out of 73 constituency seats—85% of the seats. That is equivalent to a party here winning 552 seats. There is a pro-independence majority in Holyrood, and in the last four elections, a majority of voters voted for parties that support independence and having a referendum. If the Secretary of State is going to ignore a parliamentary democracy and parliamentary votes of the people, what is the route for the people of Scotland to have a referendum and have their say?
Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP)
The Supreme Court today did not rule that Scotland should not be independent or that Scotland should not be able to have a referendum; it ruled that the existing legislation written by Unionist politicians does not allow the Scottish Government to make that decision, unless the UK Government are willing to amend it, as they did in 2014. That is the legal argument.
I want to know what the democratic argument is against Scotland being able to do that. In the Scottish Parliament elections—one of the eight elections we have won since 2014—not only did the SNP leaflets say, “Vote SNP for a referendum on independence”, but the Tory leaflets, the Labour leaflets and the Liberal Democrat leaflets all said it. What is the democratic argument against Scotland and the people of Scotland being able to simply answer that question?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. It is important, if we are to get everybody in, that the questions are short.
Mr Jack
It is important we get everyone in and they have their say. I refer the hon. Lady to the answer I gave earlier: less than a third of the Scottish electorate voted for the Scottish National party. It is entirely a matter of consensus, and at the moment we believe that the priorities should be elsewhere. The cost of living, supporting people through inflation, the energy price cap, getting on and delivering freeports, delivering on the growth deals—those are the things that we think the people of Scotland expect us to do.
Mr Jack
The claim of right? We had a Union of the Crowns in 1603 and a Union of the Parliaments in 1707, but they were all a terribly long time ago. We firmly believe that we have a strong partnership that has endured for more than 300 years and has delivered for all parts of the United Kingdom, and that we are better together.
Constitutional Law
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts(4 years, 6 months ago)
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Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
We now come to the motion on ways and means. Mr Speaker has not selected any amendments and his provisional determination remains that a remote Division will not take place on the main motion. I call the Minister, Jesse Norman, to move the motion. He is asked to speak for no more than 10 minutes.
Migration and Scotland
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts(4 years, 9 months ago)
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Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I inform the House that the Speaker has not selected the amendment.
Claim of Right for Scotland
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts(6 years, 4 months ago)
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Lesley Laird
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Gentleman has suggested that no Labour Member was present or spoke during the estimates debate. As he will of course know, I was sitting on the Front Bench and I am unable to intervene in that debate in that way.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
The hon. Lady has put that on the record and I am sure everyone in here will accept it.
Patrick Grady
Yes, that is a very helpful statement of fact, but it does not change the reality of the situation: nobody from the Scottish Labour Benches spoke. I simply say that some of the partisanship that has been shown in this House is not ideal, because we make no special claim to the claim—
Hugh Gaffney (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to point out, for the record, that I did speak in that debate yesterday—I made an intervention.
Madam Deputy Speaker
The point of order should be addressed to me. I will respond again by saying that the hon. Gentleman has put what happened on the record and made it very clear. I will also say that the debate is coming to a close and other people wish to speak, so I urge Members not to have endless points of order.
Patrick Grady
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. They come here and complain that we want to talk about process and that we are obsessed with individual constitutional issues, and then that is what we get.
When the Scottish Parliament debated and adopted the claim of right in 2012, it did not endorse, and it was not being asked to endorse, the principle of independence; it was asked to acknowledge the principle of deciding on independence. So the claim of right is not just an historical document, a scholarly debating point or an “obscure document”, as the hon. Member for Stirling (Stephen Kerr) said; it is a fundamental principle on which our democracy rests. The UK Government, in accepting this tonight, are making a serious and important point about maintaining the Union as a partnership of equals—they need to understand that.
In closing, we, and this Tory Government in particular, should reflect on the famous words of the convenor of the Scottish Constitutional Convention, Canon Kenyon Wright, who said at the opening of the convention:
“What if that other voice we all know so well responds by saying, ‘We say no, and we are the state’? Well, we say yes—and we are the people.”