Lord Wallace of Saltaire
To ask His Majesty’s Government what are the intended functions and constitutional role of the Council of Nations and Regions.
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Baroness Smith of Cluny) (Lab)
My Lords, the council is designed to facilitate genuine partnership working between the UK Government, the devolved Governments, the Mayor of London and the mayors of combined authorities and combined county authorities. It brings together Governments and authorities with devolved responsibilities to determine actions for tackling some of the biggest and most cross-cutting challenges the country faces. The functions of the council are set out in its published terms of reference.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, the devolution White Paper said that the Council of the Nations and Regions
“will provide unparalleled opportunities for Mayors … to engage government at the highest levels on a systematic basis”.
There were 11 mayors at its first meeting six months ago, alongside the First Ministers from the devolved Administrations. How many mayors will attend when all the English combined authorities are set up? How often is it intended to meet, given that it was suggested it should meet for a second occasion in the early months of this year? How does it relate to other intergovernmental forums, such as the British-Irish Council? How does it relate to Gordon Brown’s 2022 proposal for a council of the nations and regions that would replace the House of Lords?
Baroness Smith of Cluny (Lab)
My Lords, settle in. I will attempt to deal with some of those matters; no doubt they can be raised by other Members. The Council of the Nations and Regions is a completely new way of addressing intergovernmental relations. It is a unique forum for the mayors and the First Ministers to meet the senior leadership in the UK Government. Plainly, the number of mayors is a moving feast. The Government are encouraging as many English authorities to achieve mayoral status as possible, but this is a work in progress, although it is happening at pace. As the council develops, the Government will keep its structures and numbers under review—in consultation, of course, with the devolved Governments.
On the British-Irish Council, I think that feeds into a bigger question about intergovernmental structures generally. The Council of the Nations and Regions is a unique forum, and it is different from any others. Each forum serves a specific purpose, as does the British-Irish Council. Many of them come from historic agreements and situations. The Council of the Nations and Regions is in no way intended to replace any existing structures, but simply to supplement them.
Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I welcome the noble and learned Baroness to her place. I of course welcome all and any bodies that bring the different parts of the United Kingdom together for a purpose, but how do we avoid duplication and instead have complementarity in the different bodies, whether that is the east-west council or the Council of the Nations and Regions?
Baroness Smith of Cluny (Lab)
The noble Baroness raises an important point. There is, of course, no purpose in simply duplicating structures. That is why I sought in my last answer to emphasise the unique nature of this particular body. The Prime Minister has been clear that it will have genuine purpose and that it is not simply to be a talking shop. Other structures, however, address different problems and sensitivities. This particular structure will, for example, sit alongside the top-tier meetings that will continue to take place between the First Ministers and the Prime Minister, which will happen at the same time as these meetings. That goes towards efficiency of the use of structures rather than duplication, because the relevant people will be travelling in any event.
To the earlier question from the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, about when the next meeting will take place, it will take place in the spring. The Council of the Nations and Regions will meet twice a year alongside the other structures that I mentioned.
Baroness Curran (Lab)
I too welcome my noble and learned friend to her place. The Government recently announced a “third era” for the Scotland Office. The first was to establish devolution. The second, sadly, was mired in conflict and division. Does she agree that the third era should be about co-operation and delivery, and that this should be the focus for all who want to see Scotland prosper and succeed?
Baroness Smith of Cluny (Lab)
I thank my noble friend for her question. As the Secretary of State for Scotland said last Friday:
“The vast majority of Scots want their two governments to work together to increase living standards and improve public services”.
From being based in Scotland, as this House is aware that I am, I can see this at first hand. I am told at official level, at the political level and from what I read in the newspapers that there is a consensus that inter- governmental relations have been vastly improved since the election of this Labour Government.
Baroness Finn (Con)
My Lords, the Council of the Nations and Regions brings another apparatus into the rather crowded field of devolved government. Can the Minister outline the process for resolving disagreements between devolved Administrations, the council and the UK Government, if, indeed, one exists?
Baroness Smith of Cluny (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness for her question. It goes to the heart of any intergovernmental structure: the structures only work if the participants can find agreement and work co-operatively. The first meeting of the Council of the Nations and Regions was nothing but a success. There was agreement on how it should meet, a communiqué was produced following the meeting and it will meet again six months after its first meeting. It is also clear from the wider landscape of the relationships between the two Governments that it is adding to the picture of good working relationships.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, I cannot speak for Scotland like the Minister can, but in Wales there certainly is a lack of clarity regarding the objectives of this body among not only some politicians but the media. After a 12-month first run of this body, will the Government publish a White Paper outlining what it has achieved and what it hopes to achieve, and invite discussion in the Senedd in Cardiff and in other devolved Parliaments to ensure that there is a full understanding and co-ordination of the aspiration for this body?
Baroness Smith of Cluny (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for his question. The purpose of the council is to deal with cross-cutting issues and strategic questions. For example, growth was on the agenda at the first meeting and some substantial actions came out of that—tangible outcomes that can be pointed to. The next issue, which will be tackled in the spring, will be of a similar nature. It is not in the nature of such discussions that a White Paper would assist the overall landscape. It is about relationships, tackling the big issues and delivering for the people.
The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)
My Lords, the inter- governmental relations review, which reported in January 2022, so just over three years ago, introduced a structure of quarterly and annual reports on the state of inter- governmental relations. As the council is additional to the existing structures, and as those reports initially came from the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities—and have now transferred back to the Cabinet Office—can the Minister update us on when the next report will come out and whether the reporting system is still in place?
Baroness Smith of Cluny (Lab)
I thank the noble Earl for his question. I do not have that information to hand, but I will be very happy to write with it in due course.
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster (Lab)
My Lords, the Council of the Nations and Regions has real potential to improve economic activity in regions such as Yorkshire and the Humber, and throughout other regions in the UK. However, as a former Minister for Yorkshire and the Humber, I know how important it is to have a strong Civil Service presence in the regions to deliver on the functions of the council. Can my noble and learned friend the Minister assure me that getting that strong regional presence for the Civil Service will be a priority for the Government? I hope that was what the Secretary of State, Pat McFadden, was hinting at in his weekend interviews.
Baroness Smith of Cluny (Lab)
Yes, I agree whole- heartedly with my noble friend that having the Civil Service out of London and in the regions is vital. I work from a UK government building in Edinburgh that has a large contingent from HMRC, as well as colleagues from the Cabinet Office, the Scotland Office and my own office. It is very easy to see the benefits of having departments in the regions. As I am sure noble Lords know, the Foreign Office also has a large presence outside Glasgow. It is vital to joined-up government that we have a Civil Service that serves the regions in England, as well as the nations in Scotland, and this Government are committed to that.