Oral Answers to Questions
Philip Hollobone Excerpts(14 years, 4 months ago)
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Mr Hunt
We are working closely with the Department for Education on a number of projects to do with school sport. In particular, we want to ensure that proper protections are in place for school playing fields. That was a failing of the previous Conservative Government and of the previous Labour Government, and we want to put it right.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
T8. May I praise my right hon. Friend for helping to expose some of the excessively large pay packages at the BBC, and ask him when something is actually going to be done about this matter?
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
6. How much it costs to print early-day motions in 2009-10.
Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough)
The cost of publishing early-day motions, including printing, staff time and technical support, was approximately £1 million in the financial year 2009-10. Printing alone accounts for some £776,000.
Mr Hollobone
Taxpayers will be shocked by the figures that the hon. Gentleman has just read out to the House. Should this not offer scope for huge cost savings and, hopefully, be another nail in the coffin of the wretched EDM system?
Sir Stuart Bell
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his remarks, and he will be happy to know that from the start of this parliamentary Session older EDMs have not been reprinted weekly, saving 2.5 million sheets of paper and up to £300,000 in printing costs per year.
Information for Backbenchers on Statements
Philip Hollobone Excerpts(14 years, 4 months ago)
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Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House commends the Speaker on the action he has taken over the past year to reassert the principle that Ministers ought to make statements to the House before they are made elsewhere; notes that paragraph 9.1 of the Ministerial Code says that when Parliament is in session, the most important announcements of Government policy should be made in the first instance in Parliament; believes that compliance with this principle is essential for backbenchers to be able to represent the interests of their constituents and hold the Government to account; and invites the Procedure Committee to consider how the rules of the House could be better used or, if necessary, changed to ensure compliance with this principle and to develop a protocol for the release of information.
It is a rare privilege and honour for me to open this, the first of the Backbench Business Committee debates on the Floor of the House. We are honoured by your presence in the Chair this evening, Mr. Speaker. In this motion we do some important things. First, we commend you for the action that you have taken in ensuring that the Government get the message that important policy announcements should be made to Members of this House first and not to the wider media. In the motion, we draw attention to paragraph 9.1 of the ministerial code, which says exactly that. It says that:
“when Parliament is in session, the most important announcements of Government policy should be made in the first instance in Parliament”.
It also says that we believe that compliance with this principle is essential for Back Benchers to be able to best represent the interests of our constituents and hold the Government of the day to account. Constructively, we suggest that the Procedure Committee—I see the Chairman in his place—be invited to consider how the rules of the House could be better used, and if necessary changed, to ensure compliance with this principle and to develop a protocol for the release of information.
The Chamber of the House of Commons should be the centre of political public life in our country. It should not be an inconvenience for Ministers to come here and tell the country about important policy: it should be an honour and privilege to keep the information to themselves until they have told Members of this House. It should be a matter of professional pride, so to speak, that information is not put out into the wider ether until the representatives of the people are told first, in this Chamber. This is not a criticism only of the present Government, but a criticism of all Governments, Labour, Conservative and coalition, going back for some time.
The purpose of the motion is not only to make the point that this Chamber should be considered first and foremost in the minds of Ministers, but to be helpful to the Government so that the coalition sets a precedent by putting in place a set of procedures that will avoid the confusion that has obtained down the ages and, worryingly, has already been seen in the present Session. We need to get the system right to help all of us to represent the concerns of our constituents better.
Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the problem has worsened with the advent of 24-hour news?
Mr Hollobone
I am most grateful for the helpful intervention from my right hon. Friend, the distinguished Chairman of the Procedure Committee. There are many benefits of 24-hour news coverage, although accuracy is not necessarily one of them—nor is undue pressure on Ministers to release information before the House is told. But that is no excuse for Ministers to fail to resist the temptation to get their message out before telling the House. I agree that it is an additional pressure, but it should not be an excuse.
The early release of information is not confined to the broadcast media age. In fact, we can go back to the infamous incident on 13 November 1947, when the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Hugh Dalton, resigned a few hours after what he described as “a grave indiscretion” on his part. Some Members might not be familiar with this infamous case, so perhaps I can indulge the House for a moment by reminding them. There was the following exchange on the Floor of the Chamber: Mr Raikes raised a private notice question, which was the procedure in those days, and
“asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has considered the accurate forecast of the Budget proposals in a newspaper on sale at 3.45 p.m. yesterday, a copy of which has been sent to him, and if he will institute an inquiry into the source of the information.”
Very humbly, Mr Dalton, the Chancellor at the time, told the House:
“I very much regret to tell the House that the publication to which the hon. Member refers arose out of an incident which occurred as I was entering the Chamber to make my speech yesterday. In reply to questions put to me by the Lobby correspondent of the “Star” newspaper, I indicated to him the subject matter contained in the publication in question. I appreciate that this was a grave indiscretion on my part, for which I offer my deep apologies to the House.”—[Official Report, 13 November 1947; Vol. 444, c. 551.]
A few hours later, The Times reported Hugh Dalton’s resignation letter to the Prime Minister, in which Hugh Dalton wrote:
“In view of the incident which was raised to-day in the House, I think my duty to offer you my resignation”.
Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op)
That is a very interesting historical episode, and I thank the hon. Gentleman for telling us about it, but on that basis, has he worked out how many current Ministers would have had to resign?
Mr Hollobone
That is an extremely good point, and the answer is: all of them—and most of the previous Government as well. The basic point of my speech is that standards have been going downhill since 13 November 1947. Mr Dalton was clearly in the wrong, and he paid the ultimate political price, but what has been happening since is that Ministers of the Crown, under Conservative, Labour and coalition Governments, have been getting away with it. The purpose of today’s motion, in praising the Speaker for the steps he has taken, is to give the House the opportunity to say, “Enough is enough. We are going to do things differently in the future.”
Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
Does the hon. Gentleman think that members of the Government who have leaked or given such information before the House has been informed were weak, or does he think that there has been a Government strategy to bring it about?
Mr Hollobone
It is probably both, to be fair. I am not moving this motion in a politically partisan way; I am moving it on behalf of my colleagues on the Backbench Business Committee and all Back-Bench Members, whatever parties they represent, in order to hold the people on the Front Bench to account for their behaviour. As a Back-Bench Member, I do not particularly care whether they are Conservative, coalition or Labour Ministers. Their first duty should be to report their new policy announcements on the Floor of the Chamber.
John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman says he is speaking on behalf of all of us, so why is the motion pussyfooting around so much by referring the matter to another Committee? Why not propose that such Ministers be suspended? When the ceiling can take it, let us have these people suspended.
Mr Hollobone
I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s point. I would say in answer to his question that it is a sensible way forward for the Procedure Committee to take evidence from hon. Members, and I suspect that he will be the first in the queue. The Chair of the Procedure Committee is here tonight to hear contributions from hon. Members. We can develop a sensible protocol that everyone can understand, including Ministers of Crown, and we can find a better way forward. I also say to the hon. Gentleman that the motion has been sitting on the Order Paper for some time, and if he had wanted to table an amendment, he would have been quite within his rights to do so.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman is making an excellent case, and I welcome how he is standing above party politics in order to do it. He mentioned the advent of 24-hour news. Does he similarly deprecate the fact that for once the news Galleries in this place are empty? There seems to be no appetite in the media for what the Chamber is trying to do in asserting the power of Parliament back over an overweening Executive.
Mr Hollobone
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that helpful intervention, although actually it was my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight), the Chair of the Procedure Committee, who made the point about 24-hour news media. However, the point made by the hon. Gentleman was spot on. The thrust of this motion, and the reason the Backbench Business Committee put it forward tonight, is that all too often the Press Gallery is empty. Why is it empty? It is because the media have generally heard about it all before we get to hear about it on the Floor of the House.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way—he is being generous with his time. He says that he is representing all Back-Bench Members, but he will know that we in the minority parties have famously been disqualified from standing for the Backbench Business Committee. I know that he and his colleagues have looked at this sympathetically, and the charming exercise by the Committee Chair, the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), has persuaded us to come along this evening and participate in the debate. However, what does he have to say to me and the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), who is sitting next to me, that would encourage us to take a part in the Committee?
Mr Hollobone
First, I agree that we have a charming Committee Chair, and she has gone out of her way to ensure that the minority parties are invited to the Committee to give their point of view. Indeed, we received a representation at a recent meeting to that effect. Certainly on behalf of the Chair I can say that the hon. Gentleman would be most welcome to attend at 7 o’clock on the first Monday of the September sitting, upstairs in Committee Room 16. We would be delighted to hear a representation from him about what business he would like to include in a future Back-Bench business debate.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
Does the hon. Gentleman not also need to recognise that the temptation that Ministers fall prey to is not merely the desire to get on the news, but the desire to present a more limited and selective account of the statement they are subsequently going to make at a point when it cannot be questioned by Members who might know quite a lot about the subject. That statement might be taken at face value by sometimes gullible journalists.
Mr Hollobone
My right hon. Friend is spot on. It is called spin. We in the House of Commons should be trying to un-spin things and ensuring that when statements are made to the House and new policy initiatives announced, we have the opportunity to fire in those questions. Actually, however, many of our constituents are beginning to say, “What is the point of having Members of Parliament, if you can read all about it in tomorrow’s newspapers?” The journalists are getting better access to Ministers about lots of policy announcements than we are in the House.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
I would like to make some observations as a new Back-Bench Member on the 24-hour media cycle. One of the things that strikes me is that, because the House does not sit on some days until 2.30 pm, the news media have ample opportunity to coax information out of Ministers that might be better given to the House. I, for one, would like to put it on the record that I would be very willing to come in and go home much earlier for sittings and have a much more family-friendly set of hours.
Mr Hollobone
That is a most helpful and excellent suggestion from my hon. Friend, and I am delighted that she has had the opportunity to make it. It would appear to most people outside this place that the hours we sit are in many ways absurd and certainly not family friendly. Furthermore, in many ways they are not the best hours for us to do good business in the House, and anything that would stop journalists getting information before hon. Members would need to be welcomed.
The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) asked what comfort our Committee could offer minority parties. The invitation is open to the minority parties and every other Back Bencher: whatever party they might represent—this goes for independent Members too—they should come and tell the Committee what they would like to be discussed on the Floor of the House.
John Mann
It is very kind of the hon. Gentleman to invite us all to the meetings, but we elect people to represent us. If the Procedure Committee comes back with some wishy-washy, mealy-mouthed excuse of an answer to the question that has been put, how will the Backbench Business Committee represent us all properly and ensure that the issue that it has rightly raised is properly voted on by the House?
Mr Hollobone
The hon. Gentleman is talking about a hypothetical case. Knowing the Chairman of the Procedure Committee as I do—my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire—I think that wishy-washy is the last thing that any recommendation will be. I am also sure that you, Mr Speaker, will be taking a close interest in the work of the Procedure Committee and any motion that may come back to the House in due course, so I do not want the hon. Gentleman to be unduly worried about the process.
John Mann
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that, but the question of process is rather important. This is the first opportunity for the Backbench Business Committee to try to have some influence, yet the issue is being referred to another Committee of the House. We have seen this kind of thing before. If the Procedure Committee fails to come back with something sufficiently substantive, how will the Backbench Business Committee take the issue forward?
Mr Hollobone
I anticipate a substantive motion on the Floor of the House in due course to endorse the principle that we have to hold the Government to account by having a proper procedure for statements.
Mr Knight
On the point that has just been raised, it is entirely hypothetical at this stage, but I would expect that if this evening’s motion goes ahead and the Procedure Committee makes recommendations, those recommendations would come before the whole House. It would then be for the whole House to decide what to do, including the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann).
Mr Hollobone
I am sure that any motion that comes before the House will benefit from the contribution of the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), because he has a lot to say on the issue, and quite rightly so. However, what I would say to him now is that the motion on the Order Paper this evening is not wishy-washy. We commend the Speaker on the brave steps that he has taken, we reassert the principle that Ministers ought to make statements to the House, and we note paragraph 9.1 of the ministerial code. We can vote on the motion this evening or we can accept it without going through the Division Lobbies. We will be in a far better place if the motion succeeds this evening than we were yesterday.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
My hon. Friend has been extremely generous in giving way. Does he agree that we will need to see a major shift in how the media do their business? It is not just the 24-hour news cycle; it seems that the local and national media expect to be given everything in advance. They ring us before we make a speech to ask us what will be in it. Does he agree that that has to change?
Mr Hollobone
That is a most helpful intervention, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making it. I have huge respect for those who work in news organisations. They have a difficult job to do and, by and large, they do it very well, whether in our local newspapers or as representatives of the national media. What I would say to my hon. Friend is that news is not really news anymore. In the olden days, news used to be about things that had happened; nowadays, news is about things that are anticipated will happen. Often, by the time the event actually takes place the news has moved on to something else. The broadcasters in particular, with the appetite for 24-hour coverage, are distorting the news picture and confusing a lot of our constituents.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. He is making a powerful and historic speech that will go down in the annals of this great Parliament. The reason the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) is unhappy is that there were no amendments to the motion from hon. Members, which is a shame. However, if he was minded to divide the House this evening because the motion did not go far enough, he would be giving all those Ministers who leak the opportunity to vote against it.
Barry Gardiner
I rise simply to correct the assertion I made earlier that the Press Gallery was bereft. I have since noticed the not inconsiderable frame of one of the members of the press—I believe from the Jewish Chronicle—who—
Mr Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman entered the House with me in 1997, and he is aware of the normal custom that one does not refer to people outside the Chamber. I allowed a modest latitude for the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone), because what he was saying was central to the thrust of the argument that he wished to develop, but to get into the business of identifying individual journalists is not good for the House, and it is probably not good for the egos of the journalists concerned either.
Mr Hollobone
I am grateful for your ruling, Mr Speaker. Should there be any members of the Press Gallery up there this evening, they should be commended on turning up, although as you know, the reputations of lots of members of the Press Gallery precedes them, whether they are here or not.
If you will forgive me, Mr Speaker, I got stuck in 1947, with the resignation of the then Chancellor of the Exchequer. However, to move on from that, the Library has produced some valuable intelligence on the issue of ministerial statements not being made correctly. I understand that in the 27 years since 1983, there have been 44 incidents on the Floor of the House when the Speaker or a Deputy Speaker has had to make a ruling about the pre-release of information. Indeed, I fully expect the total figure to be somewhat higher. We are therefore talking about a regular occurrence, and it is clearly difficult for any Government, of whatever colour, to get things right. That is why we now have an opportunity, with this new politics, to try to ensure that we have a protocol in place that everyone can understand and which it is far more difficult to fall foul of.
Even though the Backbench Business Committee is a new innovation, the issue of ministerial statements going wrong has been discussed on the Floor of the House and by Select Committees before. In February 2001, the Public Administration Committee conducted an inquiry into the ministerial code. Its findings make for interesting reading, so perhaps I could indulge the House for a moment by reading them:
“There is one respect in which the accountability requirements of Ministers in relation to Parliament have been weakened over the lifetime of the Ministerial Code. This concerns policy announcements to Parliament. The 1949 version of the Code provided that: ‘When Parliament is in session, important announcements of Government policy should be made, in the first instance, in Parliament.’ However, in…1997…the formulation has become: ‘When Parliament is in session, Ministers will want to bear in mind the desire of Parliament that the most important announcements of Government policy should be made, in the first instance, to Parliament.’ This represents a reduction in parliamentary accountability. We recommend that when the Ministerial Code is next revised the spirit of the original wording should be restored in respect of announcements of important Government policy.”
Basically, the Government of the day, having been ticked off, accepted that recommendation. However, my contention—and that of the Backbench Business Committee—is that despite being corrected by the Public Administration Committee in 2001, the procedure is still not clear enough to the Government of the day.
I have to say that I am extremely disappointed that the new coalition Government have got off to a bad start on the release of policy information to this House—I should also say that I would have said that whichever Government were now in power. The coalition Government got off to a bad start with the Queen’s Speech, which is an extremely poor place to get off to a bad start. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) raised the matter in the House on a point of order on 25 May, when he said to you, Mr Speaker:
“You rightly used to excoriate Labour Ministers if ever we made announcements before making them to this House, so will you make sure that that lot over there do not announce things to the press—as they have done, day in, day out over the past 10 days—without first bringing them before this House?”
You, Sir, then said:
“This gives me the opportunity to say at the start of this new Parliament that I shall continue to expect, as I said two days after first being elected Speaker last June, that ‘Ministers ought to make key statements to the House before they are made elsewhere’… If they do otherwise, I—and, I am sure, the House—will expect to hear explanations and apologies as necessary.”—[Official Report, 25 May 2010; Vol. 510, c. 53.]
You have been as good as your word, Mr Speaker. The Backbench Business Committee—and, I hope, the whole House tonight—will praise you for that, because you insisted that Ministers who have not complied come to the Chamber to apologise to the House. [Interruption.] Yes, and rightly so. Why? Because we are, rightly or wrongly, elected by our constituents to be their representatives in this national Parliament; and if a Minister is deliberately or inadvertently releasing information before telling the people’s representatives, they should be called to this House to apologise. To the credit of the Ministers involved, even though they made a mistake with the pre-release of information, they have had the good grace to come here and apologise—and I now make a partisan point—unlike Ministers in the last Government, who never did so.
It is wholly appropriate for the Opposition of the day to hold Ministers to account for the release of information. That is part of the job of Opposition. However, that is also the job of all Back Benchers, whatever party we represent, and it is no use Government Members not being prepared to criticise Government Ministers because we are supposed to be on the same side. We have to think wider than that if we are to fulfil our proper roles as Back Benchers. We must have the guts to stand up and say to Ministers on our own side, if necessary, that this is not right and not the way to treat the House of Commons of the UK. We should encourage Ministers to take a professional pride in releasing information only to this House in the first instance.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman is making a very sensible speech, and I look forward to his promotion to the Conservative Front Bench in the very near future. Is not the problem the fact that there is not really any sanction? The worst possible sanction is that Mr Speaker says, “You have got to come and make an apology”, at the end of which not much happens. Would it not be better if we had a proper system of sanctions so that Ministers could, if they broke this code, be referred to the Committee on Standards and Privileges?
Mr Hollobone
The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent contribution, and I hope the Procedure Committee will take it into account. I am sure he would want to put the point that he just raised to that Committee.
Mr Hollobone
That is right: the hon. Member for Rhondda has seen things from both sides of the fence. I am sure he was very careful about the release of information when he was a Minister, and I am also sure that he appreciates how difficult it is—I understand this—for Ministers of the Crown to control the release of information when, over the years, this culture of news management has developed. In Government Departments and in political parties, there are spin doctors and advisers whose job it is to manage the news, but the message should go out to these people that they are getting in the way of our democracy. They are not the most important people in our democracy; the people’s representatives are the most important. All of us here can, in theory, bring Governments down if we have the guts to do so, and we should hold the Government of the day to account for their behaviour.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Would it not be a good idea to have statements delivered at the beginning of the day, so that there would be less chance of their falling into the news cycle? If they happened at the start of the day, they would set the agenda.
Mr Hollobone
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point, which is not unrelated to the earlier intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin). If the parliamentary day were shifted forward, it would clearly help regarding the danger of leaking information.
What we need is some iron resolve in Ministers of the Crown that when they make important decisions, they announce them to the people’s representatives first. They face all sorts of difficulties with that, but the message should go out from us tonight that we really want them to face up to them.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman is leading us gently to the place where I think he wants to take us, but on the question of meeting earlier and earlier—apart from the inevitable logic of having the House sitting just after midnight—what on earth would he do about the Sunday papers? Saturday sittings have not occurred since the 17th century, I believe, although I am sure that the hon. Member for Louth and Horncastle (Sir Peter Tapsell) will remind me.
Mr Hollobone
I do not detect a huge appetite for Saturday sittings, but if the hon. Gentleman wants to make that representation, he is perfectly entitled to do so. I recognise that there is a problem with the weekend media. Are we really saying that the media are so voracious in their desire for news and so powerful that Her Majesty’s Government are unable to resist them? If so, we are saying that our democracy is pretty hopeless.
Mr Hollobone
I do not think that would be enough, which is what is behind tonight’s motion. It is not for the Prime Minister alone to say these things; it is up to us in this House to assert our authority over the Prime Minister and other Ministers of the Crown. It is up to us collectively to say, “We are the House of Commons, rightly or wrongly, and all of us were elected by our constituents to hold the Government of the day to account.” It is not up to us, on matters like this, to take diktats from the Prime Minister. It is for us to say to Ministers, “If you have an announcement affecting the nation, we want to be told first”—not only because we were elected by the people to represent them, but because we can then question Ministers about the statements they make. If we get this right, it will raise the level and quality of statements because Ministers will know, as the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) said, that they cannot just spin things out to the media, as they have to come here and face our wrath first.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the real problem at the heart of the issue is the precise interpretation of the ministerial code, which states that “the most important announcements” have to be made “in the first instance” to Parliament? It is particularly the interpretation of “the most important announcements”, as opposed to announcements that affect the whole nation, as my hon. Friend said, that is critical. If it were to say “all announcements”, for example, there would be no doubt about it, and it would effect a change in Government policy. If that were to happen, it might go a long way towards resolving this problem.
Mr Hollobone
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point, and I hope that he, too, makes a representation to the Procedure Committee. The difficulty that we all face is that if the Government were to make all announcements on the Floor of the House, there would not be much time left for other business—Government or otherwise. The difficulty is striking the right balance between the most important policy announcements and the others.
We saw a very good example of that today on the occasion of the urgent question about the Office for Tax Simplification. I am perfectly prepared to accept that the Exchequer Secretary had very good intentions in releasing a written ministerial statement, but as a humble Back Bencher I must express my personal view that on a day when we were discussing Treasury matters, it would have made sense for him to come to the House to make an oral statement.
The difficulty faced by my hon. Friend the Exchequer Secretary lay in the need to achieve the right balance between what is a really important statement and what is not. Today Mr Speaker rightly accepted an urgent question because he felt that it concerned a matter that he felt needed to be discussed on the Floor of the House. However, I think that if we can clarify the protocol, with the guidance of the Procedure Committee and input from hon. Members, the Exchequer Secretary, if faced with a similar situation in the future, will be crystal clear about what should be announced on the Floor of the House and what should be released in the form of a written ministerial statement. That is an illustration of the fact that the present system is not working properly.
Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)
I am put in mind of, I think, Pericles in Athens. He said that while only a few might originate a policy, anyone could judge it. Would my hon. Friend care to reflect on where we are more broadly in our country in terms of the internet? Nowadays, when a policy is announced anyone can indeed judge it, and can immediately start to communicate about it. Could my hon. Friend perhaps put that in the context of the House of Commons?
Mr Hollobone
My hon. Friend is clearly better educated than I, especially in the classics, and I commend him for that. He has also made a very good point. As well as 24-hour news media, we now have the internet and all its ramifications.
I do not particularly mind how people comment on Government policy announcements. I do not mind whether they do so by means of a written note, internet traffic or any other means, as long as the House hears about the policy first. I want the Press Gallery to be full. When an important announcement is made by, say, a Minister from the Department for Transport, the Press Gallery is full because members of the press want to hear the news on the Floor of the House first. When it is pre-released to the media, the Gallery is empty.
I have spoken for too long—[Hon. Members: “No, no!”] I shall take those expressions of mock affection as they were intended.
I want to end my speech not by being teacher’s pet, but by genuinely saying to you, Mr Speaker, that many of us who are in the Chamber and many Members who are not present genuinely admire what you have done with regard to statements. I want to reprise what you said two days after your election as Speaker, because I consider it to be important and a good base on which to proceed. On 24 June last year, Sir, you said:
“Just before we move on to the main business, I want to make a brief statement of just three points. First, as I said on Monday, when Ministers have key policy statements to make, the House must be the first to hear them, and they should not be released beforehand. Secondly, in statements, I ask the Front Benchers to stick to their allotted times. I also ask that the Back-Bench Members taking part each confine themselves to one, brief supplementary question. In the same vein, I hope that Ministers’ replies will be kept to a reasonable length. Finally, I always expect that those speaking in this Chamber will be heard, so that an atmosphere of calm, reasoned debate is maintained.”—[Official Report, 24 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 797.]
It is possible that not all those boxes have been ticked—and if so, it is probably largely the fault of us Back Benchers—but your central point, Sir, about the need to ensure that policy announcements are made to the people’s representatives first on the Floor of the House, was absolutely spot on. It is the job of this motion, and of subsequent action, to ensure that we bring that about.
Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)
I welcome the fact that we are debating this motion tonight and that we now have a Backbench Business Committee in place. This reform has been a long time coming—the idea that the House of Commons should control its own timetable was first set out in the 1590s by someone called Robert Parsons. So it has taken more than 400 years since the idea was first mooted for it to become a reality. That is hardly speedy progress, even by parliamentary standards.
The call by Robert Parsons for the Commons to take control of its own agenda and assert its historic role as the fount of all public law fell on deaf ears at the time. But the call in 2009 by the Committee on Reform of the House of Commons, to which I was pleased to have been elected a member, has been more successful. I am delighted that we now have a Backbench Business Committee in place at long last.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) on his speech and the Chair and members of the Backbench Business Committee on bringing forward this motion tonight. We have heard a number of quotes about what you have said since you took the Chair, Mr Speaker, but you have been consistent. Before you took the Chair, you said, when expressing your own views on this subject, that
“once and for all, Ministers must be obliged to make key policy statements here.”—[Official Report, 22 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 624.]
As with so many of your pronouncements, Mr Speaker, who could disagree with that? I certainly do not. So I support the motion and, if the House agrees, I would be very pleased to see that it is properly considered by the Procedure Committee, which I chair.
I know from his interventions that the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) does not want to see a wishy-washy report. The basis on which I support this motion and will be inviting the Procedure Committee to investigate the matter is my belief that this problem should be addressed and we need ways to deal with it. We have heard mention of the ministerial code, but one of the problems with it is that it is not policed by the House but by the Prime Minister. The hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) touched on what has been the problem in the past—Prime Ministers have perhaps not been as attentive to the ministerial code as they should have been. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) mentioned sanctions. If the House approves the motion tonight, I anticipate that sanctions will be considered as part of the inquiry that the Procedure Committee would wish to pursue.
I intend to be brief this evening, because I believe that it would be inappropriate for me to take a position on what our conclusions ought to be. If the House agrees to the motion, the Committee that I chair will deliberate, assess and then judge the appropriate way forward and will then, very likely, make a number of recommendations to the House. I have long believed that it is extremely important that one should not be an advocate if one is also to be a judge.
Mr Hollobone
It is a shame, if I may say so, that my right hon. Friend intends to make a short speech, because he is off to a good start. Would it be his intention, when his Committee meets, for this to be the first item of business to be discussed? Does he anticipate bringing back his findings to the House according to a speedy timetable?
Mr Knight
I certainly intend to suggest to the Committee that this should be the first item to be pursued and, if it takes my advice, I hope that it will agree to deal with the matter with all due speed. It is not appropriate for me to pontificate this evening on the detail of the line of that investigation. Instead, I would prefer to remain present throughout the debate to listen to and reflect on the views expressed by the House.
This is a good motion, but the subject at issue is one that, as the motion itself accepts, needs the full and rigorous examination of a Select Committee inquiry. I hope that the House will allow that inquiry to take place.
Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom Youth Parliament)
Philip Hollobone Excerpts(14 years, 4 months ago)
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Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
The question of whether young people engage in politics should concern Members because of its potential impact on the fabric of democracy in future years. Labour Members are very proud that in March 2009, the Government set the very good precedent of tabling a motion to allow the UK Youth Parliament to sit in the Chamber at a time when the House was not sitting.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
The hon. Lady has made the point that the Government established a precedent. However, in our last debate on the subject it was made clear to the House that it would not be a precedent: that it would be a one-off for the annual meeting of the UK Youth Parliament on its 10th anniversary. Is this not the slippery slope that many of us feared?
Barbara Keeley
I would not call it a slippery slope, but I will come to the point that the hon. Gentleman has raised.
As some Members have observed, the meeting that took place last October was a great success. These Benches were packed with 300 young men and women, many from ethnically diverse backgrounds, and it was a fantastic debate. One of the young people described how she felt about it, saying:
“It is an outstanding example of how democracy among young people is alive and kicking. Tackling debate topics such as tuition fees, transport, crime, the economy AND lowering the voting age really shows that anyone who thinks young people aren’t interested in politics is extremely misinformed.”
We want to encourage young people to see democracy as important, and to see the House of Commons as relevant to their lives and to the future. It would be very odd for us not to continue to let young people use the Chamber when we are not using it—on a Friday, during a weekend, or when the House is in recess. It would be very odd indeed for us to say now, after all the success of the debate last October, that we were raising the drawbridge on the use of Parliament by young people. Instead, we should be opening the windows to the breath of fresh air that they will bring in.
Oral Answers to Questions
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Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
2. If he will bring forward proposals to introduce low-cost LED lighting across the House of Commons part of the parliamentary estate.
Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough)
Several trials of LED technology have been undertaken in the House of Commons, and LED lighting has been installed in the upper Committee corridor, the Commons Library, the Lower Waiting Hall, the New Palace Yard turnstiles and other places. Following those trials, we have included further installations of LED lamps in Parliament’s low-energy lighting programme, such as at 1 Parliament Street and Derby Gate stairwells.
Mr Hollobone
I welcome the progress made by the House authorities. Given the fact that LED lighting uses just 5% of the electricity used by normal bulbs, hardly ever needs to be replaced, and contains no mercury, so it can be recycled very healthily, have they given any consideration to lighting Big Ben with LED technology?
Sir Stuart Bell
That is an intriguing question so early in the parliamentary Session, and one that the Commission would be happy to look into. As the hon. Gentleman knows, incandescent lighting on the parliamentary estate has been gradually replaced with lower energy lighting over the past five years. The majority of these replacements have occurred during routine lamp changes. Due to the size and complexity of the estate, detailed records of light bulbs are not kept and the proportion of low-energy lamps is not known. However, on the point that the hon. Gentleman makes, we keep developments in lighting technology under review and we will adopt low-energy solutions as they become available.
Business of the House
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Sir George Young
I am grateful to the hon. Lady, and if there has been a discourtesy, I apologise. I will pursue the issue further, and Home Office questions will be held on 28 June, when she may have an opportunity to raise the matter again.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
What is my right hon. Friend’s thinking in changing the hours of Tuesday’s Budget day to those of a Wednesday sitting? Should we take that change as a pilot for changes to future Tuesdays?
Sir George Young
It would be wrong to read too much into the changing of the time for the Budget debate. After consultation, we took the view that it would be for the convenience of the House to begin the debate a little earlier. My hon. Friend makes the point that at some stage we will need to look at the sittings of the House. We have many new Members and we have to operate within a slightly different regime, so there is an appetite for intelligent debate about how the House uses its time.