Naval Warships: Repair at Sea

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Tuesday 13th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, there was a refit of RFA “Diligence” in 2012-13 and another in 2014-15, both driven by mandatory certification requirements. The aggregate cost of those refits was £28.6 million. I reassure my noble friend that the withdrawal from service of RFA “Diligence” will not have a material effect on the support provided to the fleet. We are always considering different and innovative ways of providing that support to deliver the best value for money for the taxpayer. The Royal Navy is confident that, through a combination of the measures that I have outlined, the required support will be available.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, this news fills me with despair. As late as this spring, the Government said that “Diligence” was invaluable to the Royal Navy, as I know from my own experience. We now have 19 frigates and destroyers; six of those destroyers have intercooler problems. We have not resolved that problem yet and we need to do so. We are using merchant ships—the Royal Fleet Auxiliaries—to do the jobs that warships should do. We have a shortage of manpower and we have ships laid up alongside. We are not fulfilling the tasks that I think our nation would expect us to fulfil. Is it not the case that there is insufficient money to run the naval programme today? Are we not creating an ever-bigger black hole, if I may refer back to that term? We have a very real problem. We will have less ships in the Navy in 2025 than now —I am sorry, we will have fewer; I did go to grammar school but I get my words wrong occasionally—despite what the Government said firmly. After a long interchange between us, the noble Earl admitted that there would be fewer. How many will we have in 2025?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the noble Lord made a series of points and asked a series of questions. Of course, there are always acute cost pressures where we have a service at the cutting-edge of excellence, as the Royal Navy is. But there is now a range of ways in which the Royal Navy delivers operational maintenance and repair to the fleet. It can often be, as I am sure the noble Lord knows, through a Royal Navy repair and maintenance party being deployed to a ship or, more likely, as will be the case with the carriers, through the ship’s own personnel and capabilities. In addition, we have well-established commercial arrangements and international agreements, such as the use of other countries’ bases and facilities. I would mention that, due to a successful recruitment campaign, RFA manning is currently on target, with many vacancies oversubscribed.

Defence: Continuous At-Sea Deterrent

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, for almost four years, from 2002 to 2006, I was responsible directly to the Prime Minister for the safety, security and operational capability of the deterrent, so I know it intimately. As the noble Earl said, since 1968 the Royal Navy has maintained at least one ballistic missile submarine continuously undetected on patrol at sea 24 hours a day, every day of every year. It is a remarkable achievement that deserves the nation’s praise.

We are discussing today the replacement of our four Vanguard-class submarines to enable the Trident missile system to continue to provide continuous at-sea deterrence for the next few decades. The first decision is whether we wish to remain a nuclear weapon state or to opt for unilateral nuclear disarmament. If we decide we should maintain a deterrent, what is the most cost-effective weapons system?

We are in a highly dangerous and chaotic world that is becoming even more unstable. Indeed, it is the most unstable I have known in my 50 years on the active list of the Royal Navy. Our record as human beings in circumstances of intense competition has not been good, and I believe that keeping our armour bright, particularly those elements which provide assurance of our ultimate survival, is crucial. Many doubters seem unwilling to acknowledge the unforeseen shocks caused by imbalance of population and resources and the actions of opportunistic, possibly desperate, regimes. We seem pretty bad at predicting what will happen tomorrow. Indeed, who could have predicted 30 minutes ago that Boris would be our Foreign Secretary? So no one can predict whether in the next 50 years there may be nations prepared to use nuclear weapons. What is certain is that their use is unlikely if that use means self-destruction. It would be foolhardy for any British Government of whatever hue to make us vulnerable to nuclear blackmail by giving up the power to retaliate.

Unilateralists often ask why, in that case, countries such as Germany, Canada, Australia and Japan do not need the deterrent. That fact has no bearing on our decision. The reasons are historical, such as the cost of starting from scratch, alliances, and satisfaction with others’ nuclear umbrella. Suffice it to say that all permanent members of the Security Council possess nuclear weapons, as do an ever-expanding number of other countries. Opponents also state that it will not stop terrorists. Of course it will not. It is not meant to and no such claim has ever been made for it.

As a number of noble Lords have said, we have led the world in reducing the number of nuclear weapons systems—we have only one, unlike any of the other permanent members of the Security Council—and the number of warheads. Has that reduction had any discernible impact, particularly on those states we would hope to discourage from owning nuclear weapons or expanding their number? No, it has not. We would certainly not be part of any negotiations on multilateral arms reductions—which all of us want—should we cease being a nuclear weapon state.

I have no doubt that we should remain a nuclear power. Unilateral disarmament would endanger our nation and our people and it is not what most UK citizens want. But what system should we use? Study after study has shown conclusively that the cheapest, most cost-effective option is to maintain the present Trident ballistic missile system. This necessitates the replacement of the Vanguard-class submarines. As the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, said, the last study was the Trident alternative review, which was instigated by the Lib Dems. Much to the surprise of many of those who instigated it, it concluded that we should replace the Trident submarines. Every study has always said that. Having looked at other options in detail, it is quite clear—and I have been involved with three previous such studies—that none of them is as cheap or practical as their supporters claim, certainly not cruise missiles; I could give you a 100 reasons why not to go down that route.

Let us face it, none of our nuclear submarines has ever been counter-detected. They are so quiet and undetectable, one of them bumped into a French one without knowing it, and the French one did not know what it had bumped into. The very invulnerability of the submarine to detection now and in the future, notwithstanding claims to the contrary by unqualified people with no knowledge of the oceans or anti-submarine warfare, and the assuredness of warhead delivery, make it the ultimate post-strike system. We need a post-strike system. I could go into that for hours but I will not.

There has been considerable debate about the need for a submarine to be permanently deployed—this is what CASD is: continuous at-sea deterrence—and hence the need for four submarines. There is no doubt that such a deployment makes the force invulnerable to pre-emptive strike. We live in a world where the enemy has an option and people do nasty things—we forget that. It also avoids the risk of escalating a crisis by sailing a submarine in times of tension, which makes that submarine more vulnerable. When one adds the efficiency and readiness of the crew by being deployed, it is hardly surprising that study after study has shown the need for continuous at-sea deterrence.

Another concern expressed by detractors is that the system is not truly independent. In 2009, as Security Minister, I was asked by the Prime Minister to conduct a detailed and comprehensive investigation. I can assure the House and the nation that it is totally independent of the US. Although cheaper than most alternative options, the replacement of four Vanguard-class submarines is expensive. All defence systems are expensive. The cost has already been mentioned: 0.13% of GDP for our ultimate insurance policy. This seems pretty reasonable when one thinks of what one pays for one’s car and house as a percentage of one’s income. The cries from a few military figures that dropping the deterrent will release funds for conventional forces is totally delusional. I have spent many years in Whitehall and clearly those involved do not understand the Whitehall jungle.

I have little doubt that those who are attacking the Trident capability—in the context of cyberattack and drones—are actually closet unilateralists. They ought to be honest about this, because there is no doubt that Trident is the best system to go for if we wish to remain in the game. If they want to be unilateralists, that is perfectly respectable but they should say that and not try to do it through the back door.

An additional point—not a driving factor but I think it is quite important for the nation—is that the replacement of the submarines will ensure that 12,000-plus engineers, scientists and designers are directly employed for the next 25 years, plus a number of ancillary occupations. What does worry me is the seeming delay in setting up the new delivery authority that the Government have referred to. When will it be stood up? Have the US Government been consulted? Will it require primary legislation? Have the Government identified the man who should be responsible directly to the Prime Minister for delivering this complex programme, which is so crucial to the security of our nation? We need one man who is responsible for it to the Prime Minister to make things happen, because you can chop off his head if he gets it wrong. These things are a matter of urgency. Our Vanguard-class submarines are already going to be extremely old when replaced.

The case for maintaining our minimum credible deterrent by replacing the ageing Vanguard-class submarines with Successor is compelling, and there is no doubt that if we wish to remain a nuclear power, the replacement of the V-class is the only sensible option. For the safety and security of our people and our nation, we should remain a nuclear power. It is unsurprising that that is the Labour Party’s manifesto commitment and Labour policy—and that is what it is.

NATO Warsaw Summit

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Monday 11th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, on the latter point, we have most certainly taken every opportunity to reassure Turkey that it is a very valued member of the NATO alliance, and it is important that we continue to do that. NATO has been united in support for Ukraine throughout the crisis period. Meetings of the NATO-Ukraine Commission, most recently at Warsaw, provide political support. Capability and capacity support is delivered through Ukraine’s participation in NATO exercises and through dedicated NATO trust funds, and the UK is co-leading one of these trust funds. We like to think—and I believe it is right to claim—that we have a leading role. We have consistently argued for a strong response to Russia’s actions and continue to be fully supportive of the Normandy format process.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, this conference has been very good news, particularly the nuclear aspects, not least because of Putin’s doctrine of de-escalation—which, extraordinarily, in fact means using nuclear weapons. The Government are to be congratulated on, at long last, agreeing to have a vote in the other place on replacing the four Vanguard class submarines. My question is not to do with money, but I have to say that, although one talks the talk, there is insufficient money in defence. The House of Commons Defence Committee has spotted that. The desperate shortage of money is shown not least in the lack in the number of ships. Should there be an escalation for another reason, none of the ships we are deploying to the Med are capable of looking after themselves, because they are not those types of ships. However, that is not my question. My question relates to Ukraine. It is absolutely right that we are reinforcing the Baltics and Poland—they are part of NATO; that is the right sort of message—but we must not delude ourselves: the Russians are terrified of NATO. We know that they are wrong to be terrified, but that does not mean that that is not their perception. We have sent people into Ukraine. Was there discussion about NATO being involved in Ukraine? If there was, I believe that it would be very destabilising.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, there is no question of NATO ground troops being sent to Ukraine. On the other hand, the NATO Council was very clear that there is a role for NATO alliance members to support Ukraine in training in particular, and that is a major commitment of ours. Clearly, we would not wish to do anything that would serve to escalate the tensions that exist in Ukraine. We are encouraging both Ukraine and Russia to support the Minsk process and adhere to the commitments given at Minsk. Nothing that would escalate the violence that we have seen in eastern Ukraine should be contemplated.

Report of the Iraq Inquiry

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Wednesday 6th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, war is terrible and a number of us in this Chamber have been involved in wars. When one’s people are dying around one, it gives one cause for thought. Does the Minister agree that the duty of a military man is to fight for his country and to do whatever he has been told in terms of fighting for his country? The people involved in Iraq did that to their very core, and their families and friends should be very proud of them for doing their duty. Often in history our service people have fought in wars that might make one think, “Well, why on earth did that happen?”. That is not the point in terms of them and their behaviour. It is very important for their families, friends and everyone to realise that they did their duty; they did it well; and these other issues, although important, have no stain on those people involved.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, it is very important to make that distinction. At the same time, it behoves those in the Ministry of Defence, particularly at a high level, to reflect on what more might have been done to support troops in the field. There is a criticism in the report, as the noble Lord will know, about the equipment that our troops had—the noble and learned Lord referred to this. There are two elements to that criticism: one is that the equipment was inadequate and/or deficient; the other is that the Ministry of Defence and the senior military did not respond quickly enough to reports from the field that improvements should be made. It is very much the latter, as much as the former issue, that we should now reflect on.

Queen’s Speech

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Monday 23rd May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government are unwittingly destroying our nation’s ability to design and build complex surface warships. That is particularly surprising when one considers that in the 1990s, the then Conservative Government almost did the same to our submarine-building capability. I thought that they had learned the lesson, but clearly not. From the early 1990s, year on year, the then Conservative Government delayed the order for the new Astute class—despite all our blandishments within the MoD—in theory to save money, finally putting in the order two months before the general election in 1997. Skilled men and women—engineers, designers at Barrow and the supply chains all over the country—were laid off and left to try to find other jobs. As a result, getting the submarine programme back on track was immensely expensive. We came very close to being unable to build submarines at all. Now, after 20 years of effort and huge cost, the submarine programme is back on track and able to deliver the Vanguard replacement programme.

Talking of that, Her Majesty’s most gracious Speech referred to the Government acting,

“to secure the long-term future of Britain’s nuclear deterrent”.

Well, hurrah for that, but the Commons decision to go ahead could have been made last year. The decision was postponed and Trident was instead relegated to becoming a political football. We should ensure that the Commons decision to replace our submarines is made this summer. It is crucial to put this whole argument beyond question, and an early vote would clear the air. Does the Minister agree?

The Government are doing exactly the same with the new frigate programme as they did with the submarine programme in the 1990s. I have spoken constantly and, some noble Lords will probably feel, at great length, about our lack of destroyers and frigates. For a great maritime nation, it is a national disgrace. Thirty-four years ago yesterday, the ship that I commanded was sunk in the Falklands. In that conflict, two destroyers, two frigates and 14 escorts were damaged. That is more than the number of destroyers and frigates we have today. Quite simply, we do not have enough and one need only look at the lacklustre responses to my many questions on the subject to realise that the Government know that to be the case. Why have we delayed and delayed the order for our new Type 26 frigates and reduced the number promised? The plan in SDSR 2010 was for 13 to replace the 13 Type 23s, the first to be in service in 2020. In SDSR 2015, the number was reduced to eight, with hoped-for entry in 2023. There was a sweetener—a new class of light frigates would be ordered, but after 50 years in the Navy, I say, let us not delude ourselves: they are on the drawing board and in my experience, there is many a slip twixt cup and lip.

Still, the Type 26s have not been ordered. Why not? Every delay adds to their cost, so when will they be ordered? What is now the planned date when the first will be in service in the RN? When will the last one be delivered? How old will the Type 23 that it is replacing be by then? What is the drum beat of ship orders to ensure the survivability and stability of British shipyards?

I hope to get some clear answers. The series of questions that I have asked trying to establish what, if any, extra money has gone to First Sea Lord’s maritime fighting environment has been given very confusing answers. The reality is that despite much trumpeting about how much extra money there is for defence, the MoD is suffering from a near-term cash crisis, as a number of us on both sides of the House predicted at the time of SDSR 2015. Effectively, there is a £1 billion shortfall in the First Sea Lord’s budget. So the Type 26 programme has been cut and has slipped. Does this remind noble Lords of something? Yes, the submarine debacle of the 1990s.

The delays to the Type 26 programme will come back to haunt us and cost us dear, but more significantly, they are in danger of destroying our complex surface warship-building industry. Without those orders, another major area of British engineering and skill will disappear—we can think of steel and all sorts of things. Sir John Parker’s study is not the answer to this, although I am glad that he is doing the study. The answer is warship orders.

The Battle of Jutland was fought 100 years ago this month. It was a strategic victory because we had out-built the Germans in the number of dreadnought battleships. Today, we cannot even build a frigate, and our nation needs maritime power. The first paragraph of the Queen’s Speech says that the Government will “strengthen national defences”. Again, hurrah for that. That is a great victory for many of us in this Chamber who pointed out that in the last two Queen’s Speeches, defence seemed a real afterthought. Let us put our money where our mouth is. After some pushing, the noble Earl has already admitted in a Written Answer that, far from having more ships in the Navy in 2030, as promised by the Prime Minister in 2015, we will actually have fewer.

We have a choice: to take defence seriously or not. I believe that we must, whether in or out of the EU and, according to the gracious Speech, so do the Government—hurrah. An order of frigates, leading to a steady drum beat of one built per year, will lead to the 30-escort Navy identified as required in much defence policy work, preserve a crucial national capability, reduce costs and lead to export opportunities.

Our great nation is standing into danger. Soft power without hard power to support it is as nothing.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, if I may, because I am unsighted on the question, I will write to my noble friend on it. I do not have advice which would enable me to answer him now.

I turn to humanitarian issues, particularly the World Humanitarian Summit referred to by the noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord Purvis of Tweed, my noble friend Lord Lansley and others, including the noble Lord, Lord McConnell. The Government welcome the UN Secretary-General’s leadership in convening the World Humanitarian Summit, taking place this week. My right honourable friend the Development Secretary is heading the delegation and advancing priorities for a new approach to protracted crisis, a renewed commitment to the protection of civilians in conflict, a reformed humanitarian system, including smarter financing, and a stronger focus on protecting and empowering women and girls. The well-founded passion of my noble friend Lady Perry for education was echoed in a question from the noble Lord, Lord Collins, about the Education Cannot Wait Fund. Today, 37 million children living through conflicts or crisis are out of school. This very day, the UK announced that we will commit £30 million to the Education Cannot Wait Fund for education in emergencies. A generation of young people is missing out on education and being cheated out of their future. Their education cannot wait and neither should our support. We want the international community to step up efforts to reach every child with the schooling they need to make their futures brighter.

The noble Lord, Lord McConnell, referred to the sustainable development goals, as did the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, who suggested the creation of a sustainable development goals champion in the Cabinet Office to ensure effective delivery. The sustainable development goals are a major evolution in the way we think about international development. We have agreed a set of top-level strategic objectives for the Department for International Development to ensure delivery against the goals. DfID will lead a co-ordinated and coherent cross-government approach. The department has a number of review processes ongoing both internally and across government which will inform this strategy. The UK’s decision on the upcoming replenishment of the Global Fund is dependent on the outcomes of reviews which are to be published later this year. We fully support the Global Fund’s funding and allocation model as it currently stands.

The noble Lord, Lord Stone of Blackheath, referred to the use of soft power with the help of the British Council, particularly in education, and referred to building universities with British standards. The noble Lord, Lord Loomba, also spoke on this theme. The British Council makes a major contribution to UK soft power by creating international opportunities and providing access to the UK for the next generation of global leaders, building long-term influence in those countries.

We want an increase in global partnership and networks with higher education institutions in the UK and around the world. To that end, the British Council will do four things in particular. It will promote a dialogue and sharing of practice; it will provide consultancy and services to support development, reform and innovation in higher education; it will promote UK sector expertise and create market opportunities and connections for UK stakeholders and institutions; and it will support international scholarships and alumni networks to build long-term influence in those countries.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Carlisle asked about the use of overseas development aid by departments other than DfID. He will not be surprised to hear that DfID will continue to be a primary channel of official UK development assistance spending, but in order to respond to the changing world more aid will be administered by other government departments, drawing on their complementary skills. As set out in the UK aid strategy, we will continue to make aid more transparent, committing all UK government departments to be ranked good or very good in the international Aid Transparency Index within the next five years.

The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, asked what we were doing to tackle corruption, which is costing developing countries billions of dollars. The UK aid strategy sets out that the Government will do more to tackle the organised crime and corruption that hit the world’s poorest people hardest. Last week, the anti-corruption summit agreed a global declaration that corruption should be exposed, the corrupt pursued and punished, those who suffered fully supported and corruption driven out. DfID funds two police teams to investigate corruption cases affecting developing countries. A £12 million investment between 2006 and 2015 resulted in £170 million of assets stolen from developing countries and laundered in the UK being restrained, recovered or returned. In 2015, my right honourable friend the Development Secretary announced £21 million of new funding for this work over the next five years.

The noble Baroness, Lady Flather, spoke powerfully about violence against women and girls. Ending all forms of such violence is a top priority for the Government. My noble friend Lady Verma has been appointed the ministerial champion for tackling violence against women and girls. Last week, the Independent Commission for Aid Impact gave DfID a green rating for its work in this area, underlining Britain’s leading role in the global efforts to put a stop to violence against women and girls. By 2020, DfID’s support will have enabled 24 million more of the world’s poorest girls to use voluntary family planning information services and supplies.

My noble friend Lady Berridge referred, again very powerfully, to sexual exploitation. We support the UN Secretary-General’s zero-tolerance approach to sexual exploitation and abuse by peacekeepers and civilians working in conflict zones. We have provided £1 million of funding to support training, vetting and implementation of UN reforms. The United Nations needs to act swiftly on the recommendations in Madame Deschamps’ report on this issue.

The noble Baroness, Lady Flather, referred to the CDC. I can tell her, if she does not know already, that a new investment of £735 million over the next three years represents the first capital injection which the Government have made into the CDC for 20 years. Our new investment will allow the CDC to support many more businesses throughout Africa and south Asia, building on its already considerable successes.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked about the UK’s priorities for the LGBTI conference in Uruguay. The UK Government support the key objectives of the conference: to provide an important opportunity for sharing information, best practice and lessons learned with partners; and to discuss how to better co-ordinate international efforts to support the promotion and protection of the rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people worldwide. The change to the proposed date has meant that the UK delegation is not yet finalised. We will keep the level of our attendance under review. We are committed to the issues, which UK officials across government are familiar with and active upon.

The speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, brought us back to a topic of continual concern: the Middle East peace process. We are deeply frustrated at the lack of progress in the process. A just and lasting resolution that delivers peace for both Israelis and Palestinians is long overdue. We believe that a negotiated two-state solution is the only way to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There is no better alternative that can deliver peace and a Palestinian state in reality and on the ground. We do not underestimate the challenges but firmly believe that peace is possible if both parties show leadership. Unfortunately, this month has seen the most serious escalation in Gaza since the 2014 conflict, but the UK welcomes all efforts to drive forward progress between the parties, including the Arab and Israeli peace initiatives.

As I say, peace will come only through negotiations between the parties, but international action involving regional players, the EU and the quartet can play a role in supporting that process. FCO officials have met representatives of the Two States One Homeland initiative. The sort of creative thinking that this initiative contributes is welcome. I hope that that provides the gist of an answer to the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, who asked the Government to put their full diplomatic resources behind the resolution of the process. I assure him that the Middle East peace process continues to be one of the Government’s principal foreign policy priorities and we devote considerable resources, in both diplomatic effort and financial support, to drive forward progress.

The noble Lord, Lord West, devoted some of his speech to the strength of the Royal Navy. The noble Lord is of course correct that the Royal Navy had a larger overall fleet at the time of the Battle of Jutland 100 years ago but let us be clear: our advanced Royal Navy, set out in the SDSR 2015, has a transformed role and capabilities compared to the navy of the First World War. Our two new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers will transform the Royal Navy’s ability to project our influence overseas, forming the core of our maritime task group, with one available at all times; and with the introduction of our Type 26 vessels, we will have one of the most capable anti-submarine fleets in the world. The Type 26 will be complemented by our new class of lighter, flexible general purpose frigates. The Royal Navy will continue to deliver our nuclear deterrent, provide world-class amphibious forces and project our maritime power around the globe. I will write to the noble Lord on his remaining points about the Type 26 frigate, if I may, in view of the time constraint.

Our submarine programme was referred to by the noble Lords, Lord West and Lord Touhig, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly. There will be an opportunity in due course for a debate and vote on our commitment to a successor to the continuous at-sea deterrent. As set out in the SDSR, we have moved away from a traditional single main-gate approach, which is not appropriate for a programme of this scale and complexity, to a staged investment programme.

[Lord West of Spithead]

I shall be very quick. Is it possible to have a debate in this House on the deterrent before the decision is made in the other place, maybe during the same week?

[Earl Howe]

I should be delighted to pass that suggestion on to the usual channels.

I recognise that the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, does not support the principle of the deterrent, but on the cost, which she asked about, the only way to ensure continuous patrols is to have a fleet of four deterrent submarines. We were clear on that in our manifesto. We intend to honour that commitment. We estimate that four new submarines would cost £31 billion, spread over 35 years, on top of which we are setting a contingency of £10 billion. We have been clear about the cost estimates published for the successor submarine. We are replacing the submarines and that cost equates to 20 pence in every £100 of annual government spending. The in-service costs remain unchanged: around 6% of the annual defence budget. I will make one more point to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller: the nuclear deterrent will not be rendered obsolete by new technology, including cyberthreats. We dedicate considerable resource to assessing the threats from emerging capabilities and will apply any necessary mitigation through the lifetime of the nuclear deterrent to combat those threats.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, asked about the non-proliferation treaty. The UK is at the forefront of disarmament efforts. Our nuclear deterrence is at the minimum credible level and we hold barely 1% of the global nuclear weapons stockpile. We regularly call for universal adoption of the NPT in the United Nations and other international meetings and in bilateral meetings with non-NPT nuclear-armed states. However, the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, was right that we have a political and moral responsibility to protect our people and allies. Our deterrent is a sign to NATO and we cannot outsource that commitment. The deterrent is there to deter the most extreme threats to our national security.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Carlisle and the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, made some powerful points about mental health care for defence personnel. We take the mental health of our personnel very seriously and provide a wide range of effective treatments for those who need them. In the UK, we have a network of military departments for community mental health, located conveniently for major centres of military population. Leaving personnel who have had mental health issues during service are able to access the DCMHs for up to six months after discharge to help them during the transition period.

The noble Baroness, Lady Cox, spoke powerfully and with first-hand knowledge about South Sudan. We remain deeply concerned by the dire humanitarian situation in South Sudan. More than 2.4 million South Sudanese are displaced and almost 3 million people are at risk of life-threatening hunger. All parties must allow unrestricted humanitarian access. We are fully committed to supporting the people of South Sudan and have been a major donor to that country. Cross-border aid is a policy option that we keep under review. We support UN efforts to gain humanitarian access to rebel-held areas and welcome the Government of Sudan’s announcement that they will allow humanitarian aid from within Sudan to reach parts of South Kordofan controlled by the Sudan People’s Liberation Movement-North. We call on all sides to allow immediate and sustained humanitarian access.

As regards Burma, I am sure the noble Baroness will know that the UK has provided £18 million for humanitarian assistance since 2012 for more than 126,000 displaced and conflict-afflicted people, including water and sanitation, as well as work on malnutrition and gender-based violence. We will continue to be active in support of the peace process, both politically and through our development work.

My noble friend Lord Sheikh devoted his speech to Libya. We welcome the Government of National Accord’s move to Tripoli and will be working closely with them as the sole legitimate Government of Libya. We are supporting urgent action by the GNA to reach out to actors in the east of Libya, to assert their authority over Libyan ministries and key financial institutions, and to establish a unified military command structure under a GNA banner. He will know that on 16 May, the US Secretary of State and Italian Foreign Minister hosted a ministerial meeting on Libya in Vienna attended by more than 29 countries. In a communique, they reaffirmed support for Libyan unity and the GNA.

My noble friend Lady Hooper spoke with her typical authority about Latin America, in particular Colombia. I will write to her about that country, and about Ecuador and Brazil. Time prevents me, I am afraid, from addressing the other issues raised by noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Selsdon and the noble Lord, Lord Collins, who asked me about Saudi Arabia and human rights abuses in Yemen.

I wish to conclude by addressing the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Owen. I will say at the outset that we are happy to accept this amendment because we want to reassure people that this issue is already adequately dealt with. The Government’s position remains that protection of the NHS is non-negotiable, but in our view there is no threat to the NHS from TTIP. Last week, in response to the legal analysis commissioned by Unite on the impact of TTIP on the NHS, the EU said on behalf of Commissioner Malmström that

“TTIP poses no risk whatsoever to public services in the EU, including the NHS”,

and that nothing in TTIP would affect how the NHS in the UK operates at the moment.

This position was strongly endorsed by the US trade representative Michael Froman. The current draft of the TTIP text includes a wide range of protections for the NHS, including: a general exemption for “a service supplied in the exercise of governmental authority”; a series of exemptions which ensure that government procurement of health services is excluded from the scope of TTIP; an EU-wide reservation allowing member states to take any measures that they see fit in respect of “all health services which receive public funding or State support in any form”; and another EU reservation allowing member states to have public monopolies over activities considered at a national or local level as public utilities—all this with additional UK-specific reservations on specific services such as ambulances and non-hospital residential care. The one thing you will not find anywhere in the draft is a requirement to outsource health services.

At the same time, we are keen to do anything we can to put people’s minds at rest and reassure them that the protection of the NHS is non-negotiable. With that in mind, we are happy to accept the principle of ensuring appropriate protections and exemptions for the NHS in TTIP and, on that basis, we are happy to accept the noble Lord’s amendment, if he chooses to press it. Given the range of provisions already proposed, we do not think it necessary to bring forward domestic legislation, but we are happy to keep that under review as negotiations continue.

The gracious Speech sets out the Government’s stall for the year ahead. We are living at a time fraught with danger and uncertainty, but Britain will not be retreating into her shell. Instead, we are stepping up. We are looking outward, we are being bolder in defence of our interests and we are being tireless in pursuit of a safer, more prosperous world.

Afghan Interpreters

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Thursday 5th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, anyone who has worked for British forces in Afghanistan and claims to have been intimidated will have their case thoroughly looked into; we have a well-established process for doing that. There is the option at the end of the day to relocate to the UK, but in the majority of cases it is quite safe to relocate such people to other places in Afghanistan, where we know that they will not be at risk.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, a number of us, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, have been pushing the Government on this issue for more than two years. Kicking and screaming, they have got to the position they are in now. The Minister was involved in a lot of those discussions. Why can we not have a default position for this very small number of people that they can come here—for all the reasons that have been given, in terms of future operations and a debt of honour—and we then look at them in detail and if necessary say, “Actually, you don’t really qualify”, rather than making them go through all this in Afghanistan with the results that we have seen?

[Earl Howe]

As I indicated earlier, the Afghan Government have made it clear to us that they do not want to see a brain drain, so we have to look at it in the light of the Afghan Government’s wishes. The intimidation scheme is not something we have just set up and let run; there is an independent assurance process for the scheme. We have a Danish legal adviser and a barrister review of 20% of the cases. There has been a cross-government assurance committee to provide further independent oversight, which will include in its membership a former Afghan staff member.

Armed Forces Bill

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Wednesday 27th April 2016 Lords Chamber

The noble Lord referred to the need for training in sentencing. I agree, but that input and experience comes from the judge advocate advising the other officers on the panel. You cannot say that the officers and warrant officers on the panel do not have training, because they have been trained for many years in military matters. I do not really understand why the panel would want to deviate very much from what the judge advocate has suggested—that was certainly not my experience. These are interesting amendments, but not ones we should accept.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I am still on the active list. I have been for 50 years now, and will remain on it until I die, unlike the noble Earl. I have been president of a court martial and on a court martial board, and have been court-martialled myself. I have also read Hansard from the previous debate. Although the system is not broke, we do need to look at possible changes, but we need to be very wary about how we move forward. I thought the arguments deployed by the Minister in Committee were very convincing.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, in Committee I was happy to support the noble Lords on what is now Amendment 5 and the arguments that I used then still stand.

Looking at Amendment 6, I was trying to find a new angle last Wednesday and I happened to look at the newsreel. Three articles came up. One was about Private Cheryl James, the next one was about the Anne-Marie Ellement case, and there was an article about the British Army moving on from previous problems and being named in the top 50 employers of women. There seemed to be a disjoint there.

Last summer the Chief of the General Staff, General Sir Nick Carter, said that the Army has an overly sexualised culture in which inappropriate behaviour is deemed acceptable. It is not acceptable; young people and parents of young people find it unacceptable, as do the public. The culture needs to change and it is much easier for the Army or any of the services to look at culture change if it is measured. The measuring of behaviour can indicate trends—where there is success, where there is failure, and where work needs to be done. The Minister in the other place, Mark Lancaster, said in Committee there that he was minded to publish statistics. I asked the Minister where we were with that and I wonder whether there has yet been any decision on how and when these statistics will be published.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I support both these amendments. I have huge admiration for the noble Viscount, Lord Slim, and I looked again very carefully at what was being proposed. I have to say, I feel that there is no damage to the chain of command and absolutely no damage to the status of the commanding officer, because these are very special circumstances. I think his concerns in this specific instance are not necessarily valid and I therefore feel that this is the right way to go and it will not have any impact on chain of command or the CO’s position.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I have been listening with great interest to this debate and been persuaded by what has been said on all sides of the Chamber, but one thing occurred to me when we were debating Amendment 2. The Minister said he was not really aware of a lack of confidence in the system but I have to say that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, is right. It is not just in the Daily Mail. Whenever you read about Deepcut or any of these scandals, the people whose families are affected do not have total confidence in the system. They think there are cover-ups. Only on the radio on the way here, I heard the families of people who were at Hillsborough saying they were let down and a chief constable has been sacked because there was a cover-up. It really is not good enough to say that the public have trust and the Minister is not aware of mistrust. I can assure noble Lords that there is mistrust among the general public, who feel that organisations that inspect themselves when there is a problem are deeply suspicious. I am not saying that the military does not often do things very well—or the police or any other organisation—but the general public are concerned about this issue.

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[Earl Attlee]

I support the recruitment of people under the age of 18 into the Armed Forces. It provides a fabulous opportunity for them.

I have no problem with Amendment 7 but I do not expect my noble friend to accept it. It would be a seriously good news report. I would certainly like to write the section on evaluating the effects on young service people. I would be able to write lovely case studies about youngsters coming from disadvantaged circumstances with poor employment prospects. These people will obviously be young, fit, able to read and write, intelligent and have potential. They can join the Armed Forces and have a fabulous career, whereas for their contemporaries in certain areas of the country the prospects are not very good.

The education and training they will receive will, generally speaking, be far better than they get elsewhere. They may leave the Armed Forces fairly soon but, by that point, if they are not in a highly skilled trade, they will probably have a vocational driving licence. As to the financial effects, it is a win-win situation. These youngsters will have an income their contemporaries will not have, so that is a win for them. They will be on the pathway to a decent career. When they become 18, they will be fully trained members of the Armed Forces and deployable.

To be charitable, Amendment 8 is unnecessary. It suggests that a young person recruited into the Armed Forces is practically illiterate. The reality, as my noble friend will tell us, is that a guardian’s consent is needed. More importantly, a young person who is illiterate to the extent that they cannot read and understand the recruitment papers would not be able to pass the service entrance tests. Their potential would be so poor that they would be of no use to the Armed Forces and would not be able to get in on that route. Therefore Amendment 8, to be charitable, is unnecessary.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I have a certain sympathy for the amendment of my noble friend Lord Judd but I feel that allowing people to enter the services at 16 is a good thing. I tried to join when I was 14, which was slightly too young in my mother’s and the Navy’s opinion, but I joined at 17. As my noble friend said, a number of the people who join the services at that age come from disadvantaged backgrounds, and what the military does to those people is quite remarkable. If we were able to show that, everyone would see it, but there is no need to do so. It is right that we still take people into the services at 16. They gain a great deal and it is a useful and good thing for our society, in the same way as the cadet forces add a great deal to our society.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 7 and 8. Whether we like it or not, this is a fundamental debate about whether young people of 16 should be recruited into the Armed Forces. We have to respect that this is a serious debate and that both sides believe with conviction that their position is right. I respect the work of Child Soldiers International and I recognise the persuasive nature of the arguments it makes. It refers to issues of morality, welfare, economic and even diplomatic issues.

But there is the other side of the debate, which is that for many young people the great start they are given in life by being recruited at 16 provides them with opportunities that no other direction would give. They have the best start to adulthood. We believe that on balance, the argument for the opportunities provided is stronger than the argument that there should be no recruitment until the age of 18. We also believe that there should be the maximum practical protection for these young people.

Warships

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Monday 11th April 2016 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the optimum build rate of surface warships in the United Kingdom to ensure viability of a national complex warship building capacity and the best cost per ship; and what assessment they have made of how many yards are necessary to ensure resilience in case of national emergency.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)]

My Lords, the new national shipbuilding strategy led by the independent chair, Sir John Parker, will consider the optimum build rate, the cost per ship and number of yards required to ensure a modern and efficient national warship sector capable of meeting the country’s future defence and security needs. Work on the strategy is ongoing and Sir John Parker will make recommendations to the Government later this year.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. It is rather “jam tomorrow”. He will be aware of the direct link between build rate, actual length of time that a ship has to survive, and overall numbers. Since 2010 we have not ordered a single highly complex major warship. If we do not have a constant flow of ships being built in this industry, we will have another fiasco like the steel industry. I ask the Minister, first, why, when the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Defence said at the time of the 2015 SDSR that we would have a larger number of warships in the Navy by 2025 than today, in fact we are going to have fewer? Secondly, does he not agree that it is a disgrace that we have so few ships that for the first time in living memory we do not have a destroyer or frigate deployed in the north Atlantic outside home waters, in the West Indies or in the south Atlantic?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I do not accept that by 2025 we will have fewer ships. The strategic defence and security review published last year set out the Government’s plans for surface warship building, in particular the Type 26. We committed to precede that programme with two additional offshore patrol vessels. The work to develop a new baseline for Type 26 is proceeding, as is the work preceding the concept study for the design and build of a new light general purpose frigate. The key aim of the national shipbuilding strategy is to have a sustainable long-term shipbuilding capacity in the UK. The point on which I particularly agreed with the noble Lord is that what many people call a regular drumbeat of production is what is required, rather than peaks and troughs.

Army: Helicopter Pilots

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the Army has done several things. Most importantly, it has implemented a comprehensive manning strategy for building and sustaining the Army Air Corps. There is also now a financial retention incentive for Army Air Corps pilots which has resulted in an 81% take-up rate, including from personnel affected by the recovery of previous overpayments. In addition, a more flexible—and therefore more attractive—career as an aviation specialist will be available, including recruiting some direct entry, senior other ranks aircrew and improving the return on initial training investment.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

First, and less importantly, is the noble Earl aware that admirals have been overpaid? That is an interesting point. More importantly, will this impact at all on the increased number of naval pilots that we need to recruit and train for the new Sea Lightning aircraft that are coming in? We have been promised that they will be ordered, and we will need those pilots, so this must not impact on recruiting and training.

[Earl Howe]

Let me first make it clear that the overpayment referred to in the Question has not affected Royal Navy air crew, nor indeed RAF pilots. I can give the noble Lord the reassurance that he seeks, because the action now being taken is in the wake of mistakes made in the past. The system is now working correctly.

Armed Forces Bill

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, before the Minister and the Opposition Front Bench reply, the noble Baroness made a very important point about the ration packs, which was slightly outside the scope of my amendment, but I have spoken slightly outside the scope of other noble Lords’ amendments. One of the challenges of manufacturing the ration packs is the exact point that the noble Baroness made about packing enough calories into them. It makes it very difficult to find suppliers that can pack that many calories into the packs.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I did not intend to speak on this, but I will say a couple of words—not that I try to eat my 6,000 to 8,000 calories a day. That is a real issue, but we are not on operations. I will speak on the concern that the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, expressed about cohesion. There is something in that. In the Navy we are all right. We are on ships and it is not pay as you dine—the food is there and we all eat together. When they are ashore and living in a barracks or a mess, compared with the old system where people went to the mess hall and all ate together, they now, instead of having barrack rooms, have individual cabins, which are much nicer, of course. There is a real danger of a lack of social cohesion. To be quite honest, I do not think there is anything that can be done about it. We have to move down this route, but it is right to be raised as an issue. Certainly, very junior ratings living independently in single cabins have to have particular care taken of them by their divisional officers, because they do not have that factor of living with other chaps and other people to help to support them. That needs very close looking at.

[Lord Touhig (Lab)]

My Lords, we all agree that having a healthy meal and good food inside us is important for increased productivity and performance. Not for nothing did Napoleon say that an army marches on its stomach. In the Armed Forces, being able to perform at your best is paramount to the role of those we ask to serve our country. Labour introduced the pay-as-you-dine scheme for the Armed Forces in 2006. I cannot remember whether I started it as a Minister, but I was certainly around as they were planning it. As noble Lords will know, I left the ministry soon after that, but that is nothing to do with this piece of legislation.

If required, service men and women who are single and live in service accommodation pay for their own meals when not on active duty, meaning that they would pay only for the meals they actually eat. Under the pay-as-you-dine system, they are responsible for their own meals and making healthy choices, which the Ministry of Defence encourages.

There have been many concerns about the scheme. Some report that it disadvantages the lowest paid in the Armed Forces, as they often run out of money to pay for their food at the end of the month. Others are concerned that individuals may not be following a healthy diet as a result of choosing and cooking their own food, and some, as is highlighted in the noble Earl’s amendment, are concerned that pay as you dine leads to a decline in camaraderie, as personnel of all ranks are not all eating together any more and are instead eating alone or in small groups. I do not want to say more about these concerns at this stage, although I recognise they are perfectly legitimate and should be addressed.

I suggest to the noble Earl that if he is not successful in persuading the Minister of the merits of his amendment, he should press for the information he is seeking to be included in the Armed Forces Covenant Annual Report. That comes out every year. We would then not need primary legislation. It would mean it would be reported every year, people would see it, it would raise the profile of the issue and some of the noble Earl’s concerns could then be better addressed. The Armed Forces covenant is our obligation to the military, and it is likely that this issue will get greater attention if we were to do it that way.

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[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, talked about training fatalities. My view is that all training fatalities, wherever they arise, should be subject to an inquest. I think there is a far bigger problem with training accidents than with operational fatalities. Those occur where the enemy has a better position on you and sadly some servicemen are unlucky, but with a training accident, it is quite likely that something has gone wrong.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I have a certain sympathy with what the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, has said. Indeed, I think that the coronial system, certainly when it was first being used for these sorts of events, was giving some very unfortunate results. There is no doubt whatever that one or two of the coroners were going way beyond what was required, and it put the whole thing into dubious territory and people began to think, “Why on earth should we do this at all?” because it was so damaging.

In terms of telling people what has happened, we talk of the next of kin’s need to know, which is absolutely right, but of course we have an established system whereby as a commanding officer you write a letter—I have written many of those letters—to the next of kin, explaining what happened and talking about their son, husband or father. Indeed, on the subject of fathers, I used to write another letter to all the children, to be opened when they were 18, explaining what had happened. I also let it to be known to all the families that they could come and talk to me about it if it happened. I am sure most COs do similar things. Indeed, a number of the next of kin took that up and I was able to sit down and talk it through with them.

I think the coronial system has got better but I still have concerns that there is the risk of this becoming a blame game. That is not what was intended at all and I was very nervous about that. I am not sure about this amendment but I think some of those wider issues that have been talked about are important and I am pleased we have had this opportunity to have this debate.

[Earl Attlee]

I am grateful for the partial support from the noble Lord. I have read the Army’s casualty procedure and looked at the advice to the commanding officer, and when I last looked at the document—I doubt it has changed that much—it said as little as possible. It certainly went nowhere near the detail that I propose. I am proposing that the next of kin would be able to talk about the circumstances with great knowledge, so that when someone suggested that something was wrong with the equipment, they would be able to say, “No, you have to understand that this was the difficulty”. Also, if perhaps the serviceman was the author of his own demise, they would understand why it was so easy to have an unfortunate outcome.

[Lord West of Spithead]

In the Navy, the rules are not quite so direct, but you are given guidance to be sure that you do not raise issues that would become extremely difficult. But I always felt that that gave you quite a lot of scope. As we know, rules are for the obedience of fools, and one was able to do quite a lot in those letters.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, who drew my attention to a Scottish television report of September 2012, which says:

“Investigations into the deaths of Scottish military personnel killed abroad will be able to take place in Scotland for the first time from later this month. Up until now inquests into the deaths of servicemen and women have often had to be heard in England, forcing their bereaved families to travel long distances to take part in the hearings. But a change in the law means that from next Monday, September 24, the inquests will be able to be held north of the border”.

The mechanism is that the chief coroner, Peter Thornton, can,

“recommend to the Lord Advocate … that an investigation be transferred to Scotland”.

It arises out of 14 servicemen dying when their Nimrod crashed in Afghanistan; they were based in Moray, at RAF Kinloss, and the inquests were held in England.

[Lord West of Spithead]

We have gone down the route of the coronial system. As Plato said, only the dead see the end of war. Sadly, I am afraid that at some stage we will be in a war when we lose thousands of people, and I have no idea how the system will work at that stage or what the thought processes are about that.

[Viscount Slim (CB)]

Just to give noble Lords an example of an incident that might have involved an inquest and lessons learnt, in Korea, in an hour and a half, my battalion lost about—I am giving approximate figures as I do not remember them—probably nearly 30 dead and slightly more than 70 wounded. The reason was that during the battle, when we called for air support, we got some excellent American pilots, but they bombed us with napalm, instead of the enemy. We would call that “blue on blue” today, and you would have an investigation. Of course, it encouraged the enemy, who were the North Koreans at that time, to put in a counterattack, so we really had a very unpleasant time for a couple of hours. In those days, when we had a good number of soldiers, we had a reinforcement system, at the back of the Korean peninsula and in Japan, that sent you, within 24 hours, fully battle -trained soldiers to replace them—and we got about 100 or 110 good new soldiers.

Today, someone would want to have an inquest about why we were bombed. The chaps made a mistake, we had all those casualties—what use is an inquest? You have to get on with the battle. Lessons learnt—well yes, we can learn a lesson in 20 minutes about how to improve on what went wrong. In those early days of close air support, it was a lengthy process—not like today, when it is almost instantaneous. The military is the first to make amends for, and take decisions about, what went wrong and put that right. I do not see how a coroner with no military experience looking at that disaster would have helped at all. You must get on with the war.

The noble Earl was right to talk about what happens when a chap you have with you and who is your responsibility is killed. As the noble Lord, Lord West, said, you write to his mother, father, wife, daughter and whoever there is, and I am not sure that you write just a little—you write quite a lot. Those are the hardest letters to write of any kind. When everyone else is having a night’s sleep, you are up all night writing those letters—it is not just one. The commanding officer will write and so will his platoon or company commander. The wretched widow, mother or whoever gets two or three letters. On the whole, because you must explain how and why the son was killed, you write rather fully. You write in your own hand. When there are 30 of those letters to write, that is quite difficult. Do not tell me that the odd tear does not come down from the officer writing them.

Inquests play into the hands of the opposition nine times out of 10. On lessons learnt, nobody learns them quicker than the Army, Navy or Air Force.

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[Baroness Jolly]

I understand what the noble Earl is trying to get at. Conversations I have had about this suggest that the number of women who are likely to fit the category will be very small indeed. I am sure that they will ensure that they have all the other characteristics that the noble Earl suggests they should have in order to engage.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, we know very well that women can be amazingly brave. We have always been willing in wars to let them die. Indeed, when I did my study into the employment of women at sea, it was quite clear that they could do all the jobs in ships at sea. Indeed, quite often they were better at some jobs than young men, particularly some of the computer work that was being done. However, there is a concern when it comes to hand-to-hand fighting and the like. With a volunteer force, we will have to allow women to become part of the infantry and the Royal Marines. What we must not do is lower the physical standards. There must be no lowering of them, so it will be a small number of women who can do that. Certainly, my judgment of women is that a lot of them are probably far better at killing people than men are, so I do not think that that is a problem, either.

However, I have a concern. One speaks in generalisations about training and other things. As I said, we must not lower that standard. When we talk in generalisations, women have 30% less upper body strength than men. That is across the whole population. Yes, in this volunteer service we will get away with this, but we must not let it affect operational capability or cause us too much of a problem administratively because too few women will be able to do it and therefore one makes special rules and it becomes administratively very difficult. Again, it comes to this business where, one day, we will have a war again, I fear—no one can predict it—and in the case of a general war, would we in this country conscript women as well as men into the infantry? That is an interesting question. That is all I have to say on this subject.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, more than 20 years ago, as a parliamentary candidate in Richmond in west London, I addressed a Labour Party women’s group, telling them that as a country we wasted a small fortune on educating girls and women at all. Before they could leap from their seats and warmly shake me by the throat, I went on to say that as a man, I had a family and a career but all too often women were denied this and had to make a choice of having one or the other. We spend a fortune on their education and then put barriers in their way to having a career and a family. For me, that is plain wrong.

Thankfully, as time has passed, more and more opportunities exist for women to enjoy the same lifestyles as men and to have a family and a career, but we are still far from achieving true equality. Where we can take steps to achieve this, we should do so. I therefore welcome the Government’s initial commitment to allowing women to serve in front-line roles in the Armed Forces. This amendment would prevent that and would deny a fit, well-trained, skilled and experienced woman combatant the same career progression as her male counterpart. This will always be a controversial and complex matter, as my noble friend Lord West pointed out, but if we are serious about the equality agenda we cannot deny women the same role that we offer men.

Throughout history womankind has played an exceptional and extraordinary role in our development, almost always against the odds and facing prejudice. Some would argue that in affording women this opportunity we are setting a precedent. Yes, we are—about time, too. I have no doubt that the first human who stood up straight and started walking on two legs was watched by those still on all fours, who tut-tutted and complained that this was setting a precedent. They were proved wrong, and I very much regret to say to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, for whom I have the highest regard and respect, that I believe that his amendment is wrong, too. On Monday in the House we will debate a Motion to take note of the progress made in the United Kingdom in women’s representation and empowerment, 150 years after the 1866 petition to the House of Commons for women’s suffrage. It is about time we caught up—especially in the Armed Forces.

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Moved by

[Lord West of Spithead]

21: After Clause 15, insert the following new Clause—
“Compensation for veterans with mesothelioma
(1) The Secretary of State must, within two months of the passing of this Act, put in place an armed and reserve forces compensation scheme, through which a person who has served in the armed or reserved forces can claim a lump sum of at least £140,000 in respect of a diffuse mesothelioma diagnosis.(2) The scheme must provide that all persons who have worked in the armed forces and have been diagnosed with diffuse mesothelioma as a result of that employment are eligible to claim the lump sum specified in subsection (1) irrespective of —(a) the date on which they were diagnosed; and(b) whether they are in receipt of a war pension under a separate scheme.(3) In this section, “armed and reserve forces compensation scheme” has the same meaning as in section 1 of the Armed Forces (Pensions and Compensation) Act 2004 (pension and compensation schemes: armed and reserve forces).”

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, mesothelioma is a most dreadful disease, as we all know—and very difficult to pronounce, if I may say. It is bad enough for a veteran to have it, let alone having to suffer the unfairness of limited compensation compared to his civilian counterpart. What of the armed services covenant?

A campaign has been run by many, not least by my fellow Labour colleagues and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, who I see is sitting in his place. It seems now to have borne fruit: parity of payment for all veteran sufferers now seems to have been agreed. Perhaps the Minister could confirm that this is the case, as no Statement has been made to this effect in the House. The proposals set out in the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, make sense unless these things are being done by some other means, and I am not sure whether they are.

My last few words relate to the need for much more research into this killer disease and much more emphasis on that. More needs to be done, but, crucially, there needs to be a co-ordination of the results of research, particularly between the four big teaching hospitals that are working in this arena. I am led to understand that some sort of central analysis unit, funded by LIBOR money, is being set up to do this work. Will the noble Earl let me know if this is the case?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, without wishing to preclude further debate on this amendment, it may be for the benefit of the Committee if I confirm the announcement made by my ministerial colleague in another place on 29 February. This was that the option of receiving a lump sum of £140,000 will be extended to veterans in receipt of a war pension for diffuse mesothelioma who were diagnosed before 16 December 2015 and also to those who have yet to have a claim accepted. We listened to the views of parliamentarians and ex-service organisations, particularly the Royal British Legion, which commented that the Government had “done the right thing” in announcing these changes to the compensation pay-out.

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[Earl Howe]

My Lords, my understanding is that this can be done by secondary legislation.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I thank all those who have spoken. It shows the concern that we all have about this dreadful disease. There has been a lack of understanding about it. The efforts of so many are beginning to make people more aware. I would very much like to be included in the letter of response about the central analysis of research, which the Minister was going to send to the noble Lord, Lord Alton. I am sure he will send it to all Members here, because it would be interesting to know whether that LIBOR funding is available and whether it is going ahead. That would be very useful.

In among all this, this is a most happy outcome for the 60 people who have fallen through the cracks. This is good news and it is so lovely to have unadulterated good news. That so seldom happens. It was urgent, because between four and five of these men die every month. I am glad that this change is happening quickly. It will therefore have an impact and make a real difference. It is in the spirit of the Armed Forces covenant as well. I know that the Minister personally really understands that issue and how important it is. I thank him for that. It is the right result and I congratulate the Government on recognising the justice of the claim and for taking this action. I know that there is still a lot more to be done in other ways, but that is all very good news and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 21 withdrawn.