Fleet Solid Support Ships

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Wednesday 7th October 2020 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the value for money to the taxpayer of building the new Fleet Solid Support Ships in (1) the United Kingdom or (2) overseas; and whether any such assessment includes (a) the level of tax paid onshore, (b) any requirement to maintain skilled jobs, and (c) any strategic requirement for a minimal shipbuilding capability in the United Kingdom.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, it is too early in the procurement process to assess the value for money of building fleet solid support ships in the UK compared to overseas, and it would be inappropriate to comment in advance of a new competition. The Secretary of State has already said that he will make an announcement about the progress of the programme during the autumn, and the criteria for assessing the FSS bids will be produced in accordance with Her Majesty’s Treasury guidelines on seeking best value for money.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her Answer. I am delighted that the Secretary of State has classed Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessels as military. These three ships should have been ordered more than three years ago. I hope that the integrated review is concluding that our outward-facing island nation needs a maritime strategy as a basis for its national security. Will the Minister confirm that a maritime strategy needs ships, that the UK’s shipbuilding strategy needs ship orders and that building of military ships will be onshore?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I reassure the noble Lord that it would be a very curious defence capability that did not have a maritime capacity. As we look to the challenges of the global world in the years to come, it seems that a maritime capacity will be an essential part of our capability. The Government are aware of the importance of the UK’s maritime industries. As the noble Lord will be aware, the Prime Minister appointed the Secretary of State for Defence to be the shipbuilding tsar for this very reason. The challenges which the noble Lord articulated are recognised.

British Overseas Troops: Civil Liability Claims

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Monday 20th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie [V]]

Clause 3, to which my noble and learned friend refers, requires that a prosecutor must take into account the “exceptional demands and stresses” of overseas operations and the adverse impact that they can have on service personnel. While this requirement applies only after five years have elapsed, prosecutors may already take account of these circumstances in their decision-making at any stage. It is precisely to provide some form of protection for our service personnel and veterans and give them greater certainty that we believe it is important that the Bill makes consideration of these matters a statutory requirement once five years or more have elapsed.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, there are pressing reasons for this Bill, as military personnel have felt let down by successive Governments and the nation they serve. Historically, there was an understanding when one went into action that if any sense of doubt about actions arose, as long as one had acted with good intent, any balance of doubt would be in the service man or woman’s interest. That seems to have ceased to be the case. Even if that is not so, the perception was that our people are vulnerable to repeated litigation; perceptions are important. However, I am concerned about some of the wording in the Bill. Does it open up service men and women to greater risk of investigation and prosecution by international courts?

[Baroness Goldie [V]]

First, I thank the noble Lord for his helpful comments; he speaks from singular experience in the field. The risk that he alludes to is not likely to materialise. As I said earlier, the whole point is that the Bill is framed not as abolishing rights but as placing these rights for exercise within the context of time limits. It is not a statute of limitations; it is not a pardon; and it is not an amnesty. I hope that, with a strong framework in our domestic legislation, such a manifestation will be unlikely.

Armed Forces: Racism and Diversity

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Wednesday 17th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie [V]]

I reassure the noble and gallant Lord that various initiatives and programmes have been deployed within the Armed Forces to cover these very areas of concern. If we want to prevent this unacceptable behaviour, we must create a culture within our civilian and military workforce that represents, includes and celebrates all elements of the society that we defend. Within the MoD, we need to institutionalise anti-racism.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the Royal Navy is very conscious of the need to tackle racism and improve diversity, not only because it is right to do so but because it enhances its effectiveness—and, at the end of the day, the Navy’s job in extremis is to fight and win. For the last seven years, the Royal Navy has been listed by Stonewall in the top 100 employers. It was recorded in the Times’s top 50 employers for women 2019 and in the top 50 employers for social mobility. Sadly, only 4.2% of the total regular service are BAME; a target of 10% intake into the forces has been set for 2020. Where do we stand on the Wigston report on inappropriate behaviours, dated 15 July 2019, what are the timings of the implementation of its recommendations and who is ensuring that they are implemented?

[Baroness Goldie [V]]

First, I commend the Royal Navy for the fine example that it has been giving. I say to the noble Lord that, in pursuance of the diversity and inclusion strategy, to which I referred, numerous procedures are now afoot to advance awareness, to educate, to audit and to monitor performance. As the Minister with responsibility for this issue, I am certainly very clear that I shall be driving forward these checks, tests and examinations, and progress.

Security, Defence, Development and Foreign Policy: Integrated Review

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Wednesday 4th March 2020 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the timescale for the Integrated Review of Security, Defence, Development and Foreign Policy; who will lead that review; and whether the members of the Chiefs of Staff Committee will be part of the team delivering the review.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, the integrated review will align with the comprehensive spending review reporting later this year. Implementation of its recommendations is expected to be a multi-year project. Further announcements and timings will be made in due course. The review will be led by the Prime Minister. It will involve numerous stakeholders, including the Chief of the Defence Staff and service chiefs.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her Answer. I am amazed that this highly complex review, which ought to be called the Johnson review, is going to have to provide answers about money, effectively, for this summer. It is also sad that its aim is not something as straightforward as ensuring the defence and security of our nation and people, rather three pages of waffle.

My Question relates to spad involvement. When I was a Minister for three years, I am afraid I came to the conclusion that most spads—not all—were a complete waste of rations. Very recently, a spad has actually said that this country does not need an agriculture and fisheries sector, which, in strategic terms, is totally bonkers. Can the Minister reassure me that this study will be done by people who actually understand geopolitical and geostrategic issues, rather than by weird—I use the word advisedly, as it has been used by other people—spads?

[Baroness Goldie]

My Lords, let me try to tease out a few questions from the rhetoric. First, we have to be realistic: circumstances for the United Kingdom have changed dramatically, not least because we have left the EU, but particularly since the last strategic defence and security review in 2015. What we are contending with globally is unrecognisable from what we knew then. If this review was called the Johnson review, it would be a very appropriate title because it is an absolutely essential response to a geopolitical situation that is fluid globally. It is an essential response to the need to knit together government policy for defence, for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and, of course, for DfID. That is a very far-reaching prospect.

I do not share the noble Lord’s pessimism about the timescale for this review. He will be aware that, in fact, as far as defence is concerned, a lot of the preparatory work has been done: it is there and ready to be pulled down and presented by way of evidence to the review.

On the matter of spads, it is a little unfair to refer to people who are unable to be here to defend themselves. My experience of spads is limited but essentially positive—they can be an enormous help in the discharge of ministerial responsibility. It is very easy to get cheap headlines by knocking somebody because of the way they dress—no doubt, I could be knocked because of the way I dress—but I think what matters is the cerebral capacity that can be brought to the role, and I am absolutely satisfied about that.

Afghan Interpreters: Security Clearance

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Tuesday 25th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

As I indicated to the noble Baroness, in determining security vetting the Government will take account of previous loyal service alongside UK Armed Forces overseas. A variety of criteria are applied for UK clearance. It is for other groupings such as NATO to determine what satisfies them. On the point about thebigword and monitoring, I reassure her that the Ministry of Defence holds regular governance and assurance meetings with the contractor and has performance metrics in place to ensure that standards are met. On the intimidation angle, she will be aware that the UK Government have been at the forefront of providing support—and to considerable effect. In addition to the checks that the Government expect the contractor to carry out, there is an intimidation unit in Afghanistan, manned 24/7, to deal with any situations of concern. She asked for some specific figures; I will check Hansard and undertake to write to her.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, these people effectively fought the Queen’s enemies alongside us. Does the Minister not agree that the foot-dragging, delays and confusion over this is a terrible message to give, because our forces will again, without a doubt, fight elsewhere and people will not be willing to help them if they see that we do not look after them?

[Baroness Goldie]

I respect the noble Lord’s experience on such matters, but I disagree. The United Kingdom Government have effectively demonstrated that they stand by the people they ask to work alongside them in situations of hostility and conflict. Help has been forthcoming, particularly for those who feared intimidation: 570 locally employed staff have received support throughout the scheme, ranging from bespoke security advice to 40 locally employed staff being supported to relocate within Afghanistan. The two systems, intimidation and redundancy, indicate that a great deal of help has been available from the United Kingdom Government, which is something of which we should be very proud.

Reserve Forces and Cadets’ Associations

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Monday 27th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, for bringing this issue to our attention and for having it debated this evening.

Although no final decisions have yet been made, it is quite clear that there is a head of steam building up to replace the current devolved structure of the RFCAs and the national council with a centralised system. As the noble Lord said, this would involve an executive committee with a chief executive, and the national and regional councils would become purely advisory. I find this somewhat surprising, bearing in mind the Government’s desire to devolve in most areas of their endeavour. As I understand it, the report mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, says that the current RFCAs offer excellent value for money. Can the Minister confirm that that aspect of the report is absolutely correct—that they provide very good value for money?

The phrase “If it’s not broke, don’t fix it”, rather jumps to mind. It is quite clear that the current arrangements do not fit neatly into the ordered, centralised organisational structures so beloved of our splendid Civil Service, but sometimes something unstructured is just what is needed. I believe this is one of those times.

One of the great strengths of the current system, as has been referred to, is that it is staffed by unpaid volunteers: local people from that region who love the military and know a great deal about local conditions. Headed by lords-lieutenant, they embrace people, as has been said, with a wide range of backgrounds: education, local government, banking, accounting, property, and so on, all brought together by their belief in the Reserve Forces and cadets, and love of the military. They feel that they can make important decisions—and indeed they can.

I am particularly nervous about the establishment of an all-powerful executive committee with appointees undergoing the OPCA-compliant process. I fear that those seeking these slots, as has been mentioned, would expect to be remunerated, and that it would become overpopulated by quango kings and queens with no deep love of reserves and cadets, and limited local links to vast swathes of the country.

It cannot be beyond the wit of man to find a way of resolving the bureaucratic problems of the present system without destroying the current structure that is so important in maintaining the crucial connections of the reserves and cadets to the societies that, in the final analysis, they serve. In particular, the north will not be pleased that, once again, London becomes the focus. Can the Minister please pass on these concerns to those conducting the review?

Defence: Type 45 Destroyers

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Tuesday 21st January 2020 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their programme for resolving the power generation problems affecting Type 45 destroyers; what is the anticipated timetable for fixing all six ships; and what will be the total cost of this work.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, the first Type 45 destroyer will begin receiving power improvement project upgrades in spring 2020 and will return to sea trials in 2021. Our £160 million investment in the power improvement project will provide increases in both power-generation capacity and reliability for the rest of the service life of the Type 45 destroyers. It is planned that all six Type 45 ships will have received this upgrade by the mid-2020s.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her Answer. Let us be clear exactly what this means. We have six anti-air warfare ships. Eight years ago we knew they had a problem: sometimes a total lack of power would suddenly happen unexpectedly. If that happened, she had no ability whatever to defend herself, to use her weapons or missile systems. We knew how to rectify that four years ago. Three years ago I stood up in this House and said we must do this as quickly as possible, because with only six we are likely to end up fighting someone and, as I know from my experience in the Falklands, if your system does not work, you get sunk, you have lost a ship and you have dead sailors. Quick as a flash, nothing happened. We are now getting something happening this year. I believe that the reason for this is that we have insufficient ships—only six of these—so the First Sea Lord cannot shuffle them around. They need to be used, so we have been using them even though they have this problem. There is also insufficient money.

One of these ships, HMS “Defender”, is in the Gulf. Two weeks ago something could have kicked off there and, under an attack, her system could have failed. This is an appalling state of affairs. I ask the Minister to push the Secretary of State for Defence and the Government to ensure that there is sufficient funding to increase the number of ships being built, so that we have enough to shuffle around and to do the necessary repair work. Part of the problem is that the Type 23s are very old and are having to be repaired as well. That is no good whatsoever. The Prime Minister has said that a strong Navy and a Bill are important. We must push this.

[Baroness Goldie]

I thank the noble Lord, who has made a number of points. I rebut the gloomy and pessimistic picture he paints. In fact, the Type 45 destroyers are hugely capable ships, as he knows. They have been deployed successfully on a whole range of operations worldwide. They continue to make an enormous contribution to the defence of the UK and to our international partners, and the Royal Navy continues to meet its operational commitments. As the noble Lord is well aware, the origins of the problems with the Type 45s actually go way back to the early 2000s, when apparently there was a dilemma about which type of engine to choose and a new type was chosen rather than a type with a proven track record. All that is history. The point is that the Government have systematically analysed the problem from 2011 onwards under the Napier project and have provided money for the improvement work. That work will now go ahead, and these destroyers will be returned to full operating capacity.

On the noble Lord’s broader point, I point out that the Royal Navy has attracted significant investment. Not only will our fleet grow for the first time since World War II; its high-end technological capabilities will allow it to make a better contribution and to retain a first-class Navy up to 2040 and beyond. That is something we should be very proud of.

D-day Landings Memorial: Education

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Monday 13th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

The noble Lord raises an issue somewhat outwith the spectrum of my brief. I apologise for having no specific information about the property to which he refers. I shall look at his question and see whether I can respond.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that in 1944, the Royal Navy had 1,500 major warships, hundreds of which took part in D-day. Can she confirm that any educational package will include the importance of maritime power for any island nation? Also, how will we explain that today this great maritime nation has 13 frigates—fewer than at any time since the reign of Charles I?

[Baroness Goldie]

I never cease to be surprised by the ingenuity of the noble Lord in insinuating into his questions important matters of our maritime capability. The content of programmes within the education centre will be for the trustees to determine. On his wider point, he will be aware that, more than 70 years on, we face changed circumstances and different challenges, and we have the advantage of vastly improved technology. The ships that we are now constructing are state-of-the-art in terms of technology. They are flexible, resilient ships, with versatile purpose and versatile use. The Government can be congratulated on a very innovative programme of naval shipbuilding.

Queen’s Speech

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Tuesday 7th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, we are in a highly volatile and dangerous world, but despite that I am afraid that Her Majesty’s most gracious Speech is rather light on defence. I have become used to what successive Prime Ministers have described as the most important responsibility for any Government, the defence and security of our nation and people—and of course it is—being consigned to the end of the speech, and on this occasion only 26 words nod towards the funding necessary to ensure our nation has the requisite Armed Forces.

The statement that:

“My Government will continue to invest in our gallant Armed Forces”


is meaningless. There are presumably idealists who would not wish to invest in our Armed Forces, but in this very dangerous world, while we may try to avoid conflict, the same, I am afraid, is not true of everyone whom we confront in this world. Hilaire Belloc captured the reality with his little rhyme:

“Pale Ebenezer thought it wrong to fight,


But Roaring Bill (who killed him) thought it right.”

I do not want my nation to be killed.

The Government quite correctly plan to undertake an integrated security, defence and foreign policy review to reassess the nation’s place in the world. That is absolutely right and I am delighted that it is going ahead. We need clarity over our foreign policy now that so many of the old certainties have disappeared and been replaced by confusion. However, I am concerned about the basis on which the review is being conducted. Downing Street has started setting out parameters, one of which is that

“the new strategy will seek to modernise defence”—

fine—

“while reducing costs in the long term.”

The 2010 and 2015 SDSRs were incoherent cost-cutting exercises with little regard to strategy or strategic thought. It seems that our political culture recognises only as much threat as it is willing to spend money on, rather than the realities of the world. One of our many strategic delusions is to undertake reviews that set objectives based on an analysis of the strategic environment and then simply refuse to fund the consequent strategy.

Since the last SDSR in 2015, a growing number of defence experts, many of them in this House, have pointed out that there is not sufficient money in the defence budget for the planned defence force 2025. I personally have raised that issue on numerous occasions. Time and again we have been told that we are wrong and everything is fine. Lo and behold, on 20 December the Defence Secretary said that there was a shortfall in funding in the Ministry of Defence budget—what a surprise—and the military will have to

“cut its cloth to meet its ambitions.”

That is an insult. These are not the military’s ambitions but, rather, the requirement identified by the Government in SDSR 2015 to ensure the security of our nation and people, which has not been properly funded.

I am afraid that there is a large lobby, including senior officials in Whitehall. who are willing to take ever greater risks with the defence of our nation. As for spads’ advice, well, defence spending is not a vote winner, so we get no joy from them at all.

We have taken risk on risk, and I fear that trying to use cyber and the impact of the fourth industrial revolution as a way of saving money and pretending that our forces have the same effect is naive in the extreme. Yes of course there have been these huge changes. I was the first Cyber Minister in 2009; I am aware of these changes. But that does not mean you can save money on defence by using these other ways of fighting. Kinetic effect is still very important.

In the gracious Speech, the Government say they will promote and expand the UK’s interests and influence in the world, stand firm against those who threaten the UK’s values and try to encourage peace and security globally. All of this demands hard, as well as soft, power, and I am afraid that the Government are not investing in hard power. They will not achieve any of these things unless we have hard, as well as soft, power.

I do, however, Mr Cummings’s concerns about defence procurement, which needs a shake-up, but let us be clear: politicians have been guilty over the years of repeatedly seeking cost savings during build that reduce capability and push up cost; delaying main-gate decisions, again boosting costs; changing their minds about what they want an asset to do; and repeatedly changing their minds about the number of assets to be procured, then pushing up development and construction costs per unit. They have done this again and again, so it is not clear-cut. The aircraft carrier programme suffered all of these, but, despite that, Britain has now paid for and has in service two world-beating aircraft carriers—thank goodness —even though successive British Governments have done all they could to destroy our shipbuilding industry.

The Prime Minister recently stated that our nation requires

“a shipbuilding industry and Royal Navy that reflect the importance of the seas to our security and prosperity.”

Hurrah for that. The recent order of five frigates to replace those going out of service does not achieve this aim. Our shipyards and SMEs are collapsing. They need commitment and a large rolling programme, and the Navy is desperate for more ships. The shortage has already been felt in the Gulf. Should—God forfend—there be military action in the Gulf, we may find that we are wanting. Expansion of the fleet and enhanced defence spending are an urgent requirement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord West of Spithead]

On the point about the aircraft carriers, as I mentioned, they have now been paid for, so they will not take a huge chunk of the budget. I just want to make that clear.

[Lord Truscott]

I appreciate that. They cost £6.5 billion and that has been covered, but there will obviously be operational costs and we have yet to kit out the aircraft carriers with aircraft, which will bring an additional cost. However, I note what the noble Lord says.

With modern warfare evolving, including the use of armed drones and hypersonic missiles, which will have an impact on the ability of the aircraft carriers to defend themselves, let alone issues such as hybrid warfare and non-armed conflict, is this the best use of taxpayers’ money? Arguably, the fight against climate change and for energy and water security carries far greater security risks than conventional warfare. Cyber threats grow by the day, and artificial intelligence can be a force for good or bad. More joined-up government thinking would help, and certainly a review of the Department for International Development and its role is long overdue.

Finally, the Government announced that they would stand firm against those who threaten our values. I presume that that meant China, Iran, Russia and North Korea. Apart from possible sanctions, it is not obvious how that might be achieved. It is not a war we are clearly winning. History has not yet ended with the victory of liberal democracies.

I finish with one interesting fact. A survey by the Journal of Democracy found that in the land of the free only 30% of US millennials agree that it is “essential” to live in a democracy. That means that 70% of US millennials do not think that it is essential to live in a democracy. The struggle for hearts and minds should never be forgotten, and winning that war is our best defence.

Syria: British Armed Forces

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Thursday 24th October 2019 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether any British Armed Forces, in particular air assets, are involved in operations over Syria identifying and targeting ISIL.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, UK air assets are currently involved in operations over Syria as part of the global coalition against Daesh, and we remain fully committed to the coalition and the air campaign.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her Answer. It is extremely worrying that our ally President Trump has turned that arena into an extremely dangerous place. There is no doubt that President Putin has a visceral dislike of NATO, yet the Turks, who are part of NATO, now have double digit SAM missile systems. These need the SIF settings, which enable a very special type of fire. Those settings are available to the Turks as members of NATO. Therefore, they are available to the Russian technicians as well. Russians are working with the Turks on the border. This is highly dangerous, and I have real concerns. Our airmen, who have done a splendid job out there, have been put in a position where it is not at all clear who is actually controlling the air region—there is a threat from Turks as well as Russians and Syrians. This is a different situation. Are we absolutely sure that we have in place the mechanisms to ensure the safety of our brave airmen?

[Baroness Goldie]

I thank the noble Lord for making a very important point. He is absolutely right: this is a situation of turbulence and uncertainty, and implicit in that is great potential risk and danger. The United Kingdom has always been clear in relation to Syria as a whole that we want a political solution. We are focusing our attention on trying to deal with Daesh. Turkey of course remains an important ally within NATO. It may be reassuring to know that the Secretary of State for Defence is meeting NATO allies today and tomorrow, and north-east Syria will be very much on the agenda.