Road Fuel Prices

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Tuesday 4th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, the Government have stood for this gouging behaviour by the supermarkets over the past year. In rural areas such as Somerton and Frome, and Mid Bedfordshire, people find themselves facing the highest prices and the least competition, and will benefit the least from the comparison scheme. I have two questions for the Minister. Is it fair that supermarket bosses will get bonuses based on gouged profits, and will the Minister review the rural fuel duty relief scheme, which gives a 5p-per-litre reduction, to see whether it can be extended to rural areas not presently covered?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, let me thank both noble Baronesses for their support for the report and the Government’s action. First, in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, putting the open data scheme and monitoring function on a statutory footing will require parliamentary time, but the Government will work as quickly as possible to do so. I note that she welcomed the fact that in the meantime we have asked the CMA to create an interim voluntary scheme encouraging fuel retailers to share accurate, up-to-date prices. Of course, we expect all fuel retailers to co-operate with the CMA by providing that information fully and promptly. We will legislate as soon as parliamentary time allows, but we need the primary legislation to be passed by both Houses first. We will consult on the secondary legislation in advance of primary legislation being approved in the digital services Bill. The noble Baroness will know that taxation and fuel duty are matters for the Treasury and the Chancellor, and I would not want to predict what he might do on that.

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to follow up on a question asked in the other place yesterday. It follows a visit I made recently to Northern Ireland, where I was struck by how much lower fuel prices were. I understand that is largely because of the fuel price checker. The Minister in the other place was asked yesterday why the Government had taken so long to introduce something similar in the rest of the UK; can the Minister here today answer that point?

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[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As I just said to the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, we will legislate as soon as we can. We will consult on the secondary regulations in the autumn, but we cannot implement them until we have the primary legislation through. There are of course a number of existing fuel price checkers, but the problem is that they are not updated frequently enough and are not compulsory, so not all retailers have to take part in them. When we have the powers, there will be a compulsory scheme and all retailers will be expected to comply.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that the excessive prices that have been charged have had a disproportionate impact on rural motorists and have added to the cost of deliveries of foodstuffs and other items? Is that something that the Government will keep a watchful eye on?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My noble friend makes a good point. For many rural areas, where filling stations perhaps do not get the throughput of customers, prices tend to be higher anyway. It is certainly something we want to keep an eye on to make sure that rural customers are not disadvantaged.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, the supermarket premium is apparently about 6p per litre, but that is nothing compared to the prices charged in motorway service stations, where it is often a further 18p to 20p above that. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, referred to the 6p as gouging. If that is gouging, what is the situation with motorway service stations and what are the Government going to do to fix it?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. Those of us who use motorway service stations are often baffled as to why fuel is so expensive in them. This is something that we will want to keep a close eye on; again, price transparency—that is, motorists having the ability to check what fuel might be available just by taking an exit and going to a service station that is relatively close to a motorway—would be much more beneficial.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, Ministers, particularly the Prime Minister, do not seem to understand the problems of ordinary people. As far as fuel is concerned, whenever fuel costs go up for industry, prices go shooting up. When fuel costs go down, prices are very slow to come down. Now, we have the banks putting up interest rates for borrowers but not offering high-interest returns for savers. There are so many examples of where ordinary people are suffering. The regulators seem to do nothing about it; they seem more interested in the interests of the industries than in those of consumers. Is it not about time that we had some kind of directive for the regulators to look after consumers’ interests?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I understand the point that the noble Lord makes, but I think that he is being a little unfair. The CMA is a regulator, of course; this particular regulator very much had the interests of the consumer at its heart when it produced this report, which has widespread support and backing from all parts of the House. The Government will act on its recommendations, so that is a case of a regulator acting in consumers’ interests. The CMA is designed to produce competition, which is the best thing that can operate for the consumer.

The other example mentioned by the noble Lord is slightly off topic, but much more attractive interest rates are offered by a number of smaller financial institutions. It really is a question of the consumer shopping around, but plenty of information and online resources are available for someone to find the best return on their money. No doubt the noble Lord has lots that he wants to invest; if he looks at the various websites, he will be able to invest it well. Obviously, he is a well-known Scottish Member so is bound to have plenty of funds to invest.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, picking up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, about motorway services, a number of continental countries have signs along the motorway telling drivers what the price of petrol will be at the first, second, third and fourth service stations along their route. That provides a competitive element and is supposed to have been very successful in managing prices. Are the UK Government looking at such a scheme?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a good suggestion. I am not aware of that being contemplated or what powers we would need to implement it, but I will certainly ask officials to have a look at it.

Drax Biomass Power Station

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Monday 3rd July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the extent to which Drax biomass power station has complied with sustainability requirements; and whether they are reviewing subsidies to it.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, this is a matter for Ofgem. The regulator is the administrator for monitoring compliance with the sustainability criteria within the renewables obligation scheme. It has opened an investigation into whether Drax Power Ltd is in breach of its annual profiling reporting requirements related to the renewables obligations scheme.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that reply. It is estimated that we will have given Drax some £11 billion in subsidies over the different renewable energy schemes. Is the Minister concerned that Drax’s claim to be using sustainably sourced wood from Canadian forests currently lacks any detailed full-cycle carbon accounting and the audit trail that we have the right to expect for that level of subsidy? Why did Ofgem commission the technical consultancy Black & Veatch to advise on this even though the company is already working for Drax? Finally, does the Minister accept that, in order to get to the truth, independent advisers and scientists should go to Canada to check that 70% of the wood biomass being imported is actually sustainable offcuts, as our rule requires, and not from virgin forests?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

A couple of points for the noble Baroness. First, the renewables obligation legislation was originally introduced by the last Labour Government. Secondly, Ofgem is investigating these matters. The noble Baroness is jumping to a lot of conclusions there. If it is proved that Drax is not in compliance, of course some of the value of the certificates that it has received will be withdrawn.

[Lord Birt (CB)]

Speaking of proof, has the Minister had a chance to view the devastating “Panorama” on Drax? Drax’s claims have been fatally undermined. Ancient forests have been cut down and indiscriminately turned into pellets, transported 12,000 miles by ship and incinerated in Yorkshire, emitting more CO₂ than coal did before and at gigantic cost to the taxpayer. This is not the route to net zero.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord should be careful of jumping to conclusions. I have not seen the programme, but my officials have. They have engaged extensively with forestry experts and Canadian officials following the programme, and the officials’ conclusion is that the “Panorama” programme provided an inaccurate representation of practices by the forestry and biomass sector on the ground.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, looking at renewables more broadly, does my noble friend have a view on the efficacy and morality of taking electricity that has been generated offshore in the Yorkshire and Humber region and transporting it all the way down to the West Midlands, when we could actually use that electricity locally, particularly to power up electric cars, for which there are so few charging points in rural areas?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I have to say that I am really not sure what the noble Baroness is talking about. There is a national grid. Electricity is transported from all parts of the country to other parts, as demand varies. That is the whole principle of a grid.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

The emissions that occur as a result of Drax burning mature trees are not counted as CO₂ emissions; only emissions from transporting trees from forests to furnaces count. When are the Government going to wake up to this ridiculous accounting fraud and stop giving Drax green subsidies?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Again, the noble Baroness is jumping to conclusions before the investigation has proceeded. Based on the evidence reviewed to date, Ofgem has not established any non-compliance with the scheme. But the investigation is continuing and I would caution noble Lords to wait for the outcome from the independent regulator.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, transporting this woodchip from a forest somewhere in North America by truck or train, loading it on to a container ship, taking it to the Mersey, taking it across the Pennines in another train and then discharging it into Drax—how can that possibly be green?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

It is because the sustainability criteria say that the biomass has to come from sustainable sources. Most of it is by-product from normal sustainable commercial forests.

[Baroness Boycott (CB)]

My Lords, a few years ago when this Question came up in the House, the noble Lord assured the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, that if Ofgem found Drax not to be meeting its sustainability criteria, the subsidies would be immediately removed. Since then, we have had the “Panorama” review and, while I accept the noble Lord’s point that the jury is still out, I would like to know whether he is still prepared to make the same commitment to the House today.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Yes.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, you have to admit that the “Panorama” programme had some interesting facts. In fact, a lot of that information comes from Canadian environmentalists who are on the spot and see the ancient forests being destroyed for those wood pellets. So why on earth does the Minister still persist in saying that we are jumping to conclusions when he is just burying his head in the sand?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As somebody famous once remarked, recollection of facts may vary. Forgive me if I do not necessarily take as absolute fact the statements of some Canadian environmentalists. Officials have looked into it. Ofgem is investigating whether the biomass is sustainable or not. Let us wait for the outcome of that investigation.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend said in his original Answer that it was matter for the regulator. Are the Government wholly satisfied with the way regulation is working at the moment, with questions around the regulator Ofgem? Who regulates the regulators?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord was probably in the other place when the regulations and laws for Ofgem were passed. It is an independent regulator; that is the whole principle of it. Until I see any evidence that it is not carrying out its job satisfactorily, I will continue to have confidence in it.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, when Ofgem opened its investigation into Drax’s biomass sustainability reporting a month ago, it made clear it would act if it found breaches of the rules—the right approach, surely, to a single case. However, what assessment have the Government made of wider compliance with reporting requirements and what steps are they taking to improve monitoring, particularly with regard to the origin of fuel sources?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I refer the noble Baroness to the answers I have given to previous questions. There are other biomass operations that fulfil the sustainability criteria. If any evidence is produced and if the noble Baroness has any evidence, I would be delighted to pass it on, but until then we should trust what they say.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, in answer to the excellent question from the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, the Minister said that officials had looked into this and that Ofgem was satisfied. But, as far as this House is concerned, it is the Minister who is responsible. What has he personally done to look into this since the programme aired so that he could have answered the Question from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, properly?

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[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, I have answered the Question properly. Ofgem is an independent regulator and takes these matters extremely seriously. I have spoken to the chief executive of Ofgem about it and I have spoken to officials who have investigated it, so I feel that I have discharged my duties on this one.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. The Minister was very dismissive to the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, on the issues around the national grid and the use of sustainable energy. We had long debates about this, and about community energy, in the Energy Bill. Does he not accept that there is a possibility, with some of the large onshore wind turbines we now have, that we could almost avoid grid connection and go to direct supply for developments that are important?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

That was not the question I was asked, but let me tackle the question from the noble Baroness. Of course, it is perfectly within anybody’s rights to set up a private wire supply and their own community generation if they wish, but I think the noble Baroness will find that the vast majority of those schemes also want to be connected to the national grid for cases where it does not work.

Electricity and Gas (Energy Company Obligation) Order 2023

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Monday 26th June 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 24 May be approved.

Relevant document: 43rd Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 20 June.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan)]

My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, can I ask the Minister briefly about this order? As I understand it, the order is about requiring the providers of energy services to take measures to reduce people’s energy bills, which is very welcome at a time when there is a cost of living crisis. Can the Minister confirm whether the reports in today’s Daily Telegraph that the Government are planning to reintroduce the green levy on people’s electricity bills are correct? If so, is it wise to do so at this time?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend is being slightly mischievous on this. The question he asks is not in any way related to the statutory instrument debated last week, but I would be happy to have a separate conversation with him about it.

Motion agreed.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Monday 26th June 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 15D, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 15E.

15E: Because the Commons do not consider the Lords Amendment necessary in order to maintain environmental protection.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will also speak to Motion B. The House will be pleased to know that I can be brief again today. We have extensively debated these issues on a number of occasions.

The reality is that the House of Commons has considered this Bill once more and has come to the same conclusions as previously, again with significant majorities. This is now the third time that it has made its will clear. It is the elected House and has been firm in its position. We have to take that into account, along with its democratic legitimacy.

I welcome that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, recognises our constitutional position. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, will be able to do the same. The other place would find it extremely difficult to understand if, on the amendment of the noble Lord, this unelected House sent a Bill back to it yet again.

Noble Lords have seen that the Government have moved on a number of issues during the passage of the Bill, both on Report and subsequently. Crucially, we have provided transparency on our plans on what retained EU law we intend to revoke this year—I remind the House that this was a key demand from this House during the Bill’s passage—by publishing a schedule of retained EU law that is to be removed from our statute book by the end of 2023. This addressed the concerns raised by many noble Lords and, of course, provided greater legal certainty.

We have been clear throughout the passage of the Bill that the Government will not row back on our world-leading environmental protections. In reviewing our retained EU law, we want environmental law to be fit for purpose for the UK’s unique environment and able to drive improved environmental outcomes, as we have set out in our Environment Act targets, while ensuring that regulators can act efficiently. Any changes to environmental regulations across government will be driven with those goals in mind.

In addition, I emphasise that it is standard practice to consult on major policy changes for the environment. It is right that Secretaries of State may exercise discretion when it comes to consultation. Any such discretion must be exercised in accordance with the law and guided by the consultation principles published by the Government. Those principles ensure an efficient and proportionate burden on government, while facilitating meaningful consultation.

Furthermore, it is worth noting the new legal framework created by the Environment Act 2021, our ambitious environmental plans created under it and the legally binding targets set under Sections 1 to 3 of that Act. This is the context in which the REUL Bill and its regulation-making powers will operate.

Moreover, from 1 November there will also be a legal duty on Ministers to have due regard to the environmental principles policy statement when making policies using the Bill’s powers. This Government use expert advice, including that of many independent experts, when making provisions that relate to the environment.

The UK continues to play a leading role on the international stage, driving increased ambition in environmental international law. Most recently, at the 15th meeting of the Conference of the Parties to the Convention on Biological Diversity, UK leadership was instrumental in securing global agreement to stretching targets to halt and reverse biodiversity loss. We will remain a world leader on the environment. Nothing in this Bill alters that fact.

Let me now turn to Amendment 42F. I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, for their dedication on this amendment. I am sure I speak for us all in this House when I say that parliamentary scrutiny is, and always will be, the pivotal foundation of our democracy. Their commitment and expertise on this matter is, of course, admirable. As I have said throughout the passage of the Bill, the Government recognise the significant role that Parliament has played in scrutinising instruments, including throughout the EU exit process. I firmly believe that UK citizens voted to leave the EU to re-establish the sovereignty of our UK Parliament. At its heart, the Bill seeks to do exactly that. It is for this reason that we have included the process of sifting committees for the powers to revoke or replace, among others in the Bill.

To further reassure the House, let me put it beyond any doubt. On each and every occasion to date, we have always followed the sifting committee’s recommendations. We will continue to adopt the same practice of following the recommendations that the sifting committee makes to upgrade the scrutiny procedure attached to instruments made under the powers in this Bill. Where the committee considers that a statutory instrument should be subject to the affirmative procedure, we will ensure that it is laid in draft before Parliament so that it can be debated in both Houses. This will ensure that Members are able to debate all reforms which the committee considers merit the highest level of scrutiny, to ensure that Members have the opportunity to properly scrutinise those reforms and that Ministers are aware of their arguments, ideas and recommendations. It will of course be at the Minister’s discretion, but where significant reforms are planned on which there is particular interest from the House, Ministers will be able to publish draft instruments, alongside any relevant statements and consultation responses, ahead of laying those statutory instruments.

In addition, I can commit today that, where the Government are making significant reforms to retain EU law, using the replace limbs of the powers in Clause 14, we will follow the usual protocols on public consultation. These will be run in the usual way, as is already a ministerial duty. I reassure the House that the results of such consultation will be made available to Members of both Houses in the established manner.

Finally, as noble Lords will know, we have committed in this Bill to publish a report on retained EU law reform and the use of the powers to Parliament every six months. In this report we will provide Parliament with a six-month forward-look at major reforms which will utilise the powers under Clause 14. This will provide Parliament ample time to ask the Government questions on these reforms through the normal procedures of Parliamentary Questions and correspondence. It will also provide the relevant Select Committees with the time to initiate inquiries on reforms where they deem it necessary and to provide the Government with recommendations, which as usual we will respond to.

Taken together, these measures will allow parliamentarians, both in this House and the other place, an additional opportunity to review our reform plans ahead of any debates. They will provide an opportunity and time for this House, as well as the general public and UK businesses, to let their views on reforms be known. After all, this is the fundamental benefit of Brexit: we will ensure that our statute book reflects the best interests of the UK, rather than some of the compromises of all EU member states. This will allow our citizens, our businesses and, importantly, our parliamentarians to make their voices heard in this important reform process.

I hope that I have sufficiently reassured the House of the Government’s intentions, and that both noble Lords now feel able not to press their Motions and to allow this Bill to progress to Royal Assent. This is an important piece of legislation. Let me repeat once again that the Government have already made significant amendments in the light of many of your Lordships’ concerns. Frankly, it is now time that the Bill reached the statute book. I beg to move.

Motion A1 (as an amendment to Motion A)

Moved by

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[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, we agree with Amendments 15F and 42F from the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. We are sorry that the Government take the attitude they do to the involvement of Parliament in the scrutiny of retained law, especially as this House has been proved right on these issues. This House has given the Government good advice that they have largely ended up taking.

The amendment in lieu in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, simply asks that the Minister considers how regulations might best be dealt with. We note the assurances from the Minister; they have been, as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, rightly pointed out, hard-won. We thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, in particular for the sterling work they have done over many months to get as far as we have.

The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, would protect law on environmental standards. We think there are clear and obvious reasons to want to do this, not least because we want to see the environment protected. It is worth adding that the Government’s failure to support this point as fully as they could have done still leaves further uncertainty for business and potential investors about the exact nature of the framework that they would have to comply with. We are sorry about the approach the Government have taken.

We are very grateful to our Cross-Bench colleagues in particular for the work that they have put in. The Bill is in a much better place now than it was when we first encountered it—noble Lords will remember the sunset clause and the lengthy arguments we had over that. The Government did listen in the end, though initially with some reluctance. I hope that in time Ministers will see that that was the right decision. We have got to a better place this afternoon.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, I thank everyone who contributed to today’s debate. I will respond to some of the points that have been made. First, we take Dispatch Box commitments extremely seriously. I reiterate that this Government will not row back on our world-leading environmental protections, as I mentioned in my opening remarks.

To respond directly to the point made by the noble Lords, Lord Krebs and Lord Fox, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, on this issue of non-regression, the fundamental problem is that nobody know what non-regression actually means. We all think we do, but putting it in primary legislation invites every change to environmental regulations to be challenged, as they inevitably would be, in the courts. The courts would then be asked to take a view on whether a particular change was regression or not. In effect, we would be transferring the legislative process from Parliament to the courts, on every individual regulation. Although we are content to say that we will not row back on environmental protections, that is the reason we are unwilling to see such a phrase placed in primary legislation. I am sure some of the environmental lobbyists and their lawyers would be very happy about all the work it would generate for them if we were to do so, but this is not the way to make legislation. We have to be clear about what we mean in Parliament. As I have said before, any regulation would have to be approved by this House and the other place, which is the appropriate place for these things to be decided. Great though the courts in this country are, it is not their job to legislate.

On the question raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, paragraph (6)(12) of Schedule 5 to the Bill clarifies that the provisions of paragraph (6), which sets out processes relating to an instrument proposed as a negative instrument and subject to sifting, would not prevent a Minister deciding that another scrutiny procedure should apply to a particular instrument any time before that instrument is made. In deciding which other procedure should apply, the provisions of the Bill give a Minister a choice between the negative and the draft affirmative procedure, and in practice would give a Minister the ability to upgrade the scrutiny procedure from the negative to the draft affirmative procedure. The sifting committees already have the ability to recommend that regulations which the Government are proposing to make via the negative procedure are of such importance in their content that they should be upgraded to the affirmative procedure, which would then allow them to be debated as normal in both Houses. As I have set out today, and I am happy to repeat it again, on each and every occasion to date we have followed the sifting committee’s recommendations, and we will continue to do so if utilising the powers under this Bill.

We have debated these matters long and hard on many different occasions, as the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, acknowledged. We have listened to the House; we have amended the Bill quite considerably in response to some of the concerns raised by noble Lords. This House has done its job in scrutinising the Bill. This House has asked the House of Commons to think again on a number of different occasions. It has thought again and it has responded. It is now time to let this Bill pass to Royal Assent.

[Lord Krebs (CB)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate today, and also on the previous occasions when we have debated these two amendments. I do not want to highlight any particular contribution, although I thank the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for introducing cricket last week and canaries this week; sport and birds are two of my favourite occupations, so I thank him very much for that. I thank the Minister for his patience throughout the many hours of debate, with its recursive nature that meant we kept coming back to the same arguments.

I do not totally buy what the Minister has just said about non-regression handing this over to the courts, and that the environmental groups would have a field day. Such groups could equally have a field day over the words that the Minister himself used about maintaining our high environmental standards. Surely the Bill could have defined what non-regression means in this context.

I do not buy the argument and I remain disappointed. Luckily for me, when I became head of an Oxford college 15 or so years ago, somebody bought me a book on how to deal with disappointment; that has come in very handy this afternoon so I am not going to throw a wobbly. In accepting the Government’s response, I think they will be aware, of course, that it is not just Members of your Lordships’ House who will be watching carefully to ensure that environmental standards are upheld; it is the wider public. We have only to look at the number of people who belong to organisations with an environmental interest, such as the National Trust and the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, to realise that a very powerful force is out there.

There will be scrutiny of what the Government do. They will be held to account on “non-regression” or “maintaining high environmental standards”. I am sure that Ministers in this Administration and any future Administration will be fully aware of the public concern about the state of our environment, which was so eloquently illustrated by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, a few minutes ago. Nevertheless, at this point, I beg leave to withdraw Motion A1.

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Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 42D, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 42E.

42E: Because the Commons consider the scrutiny procedure imposed by the Lords Amendment to be inappropriate.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 20th June 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 15B, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 15C.

15C: Because the Commons do not consider the Lords Amendment necessary in order to maintain environmental protection.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, at the same time as moving Motion A I will speak to Motion B.

The retained EU law Bill has once again returned to this House from the other place. I am pleased to say that the other place has accepted the final drafting change to Amendment 16, so that matter is now closed. This amendment significantly adds to the scrutiny that Parliament can conduct on this Bill.

However, the House of Commons has now been very clear, for the second time, that it is firm in its position on the remaining two amendments. Noble Lords asked the Commons to think again, and it has reached exactly the same conclusion. Indeed, the Solicitor-General noted the many ways in which the Government have already moved on the Bill to reflect the thoughts and concerns of this House. Therefore, today I propose Motions to accept the Commons position on the Bill and accede to the wishes of the elected House.

With regard to the other Motions in front of us today, Amendment 42D looks to be loosely based on one of the scrutiny provisions of the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006. However, its use in that Act relates to the legislative reform order power, which is much broader. It can act on any piece of legislation, including Acts of Parliament, whereas the revoke and replace power in this Bill can operate only on secondary retained EU law—in other words, retained EU law that is not primary legislation. We have taken steps to make clear what this retained EU law is by publishing and updating the retained EU law dashboard, and we will be reporting regularly to Parliament on our intentions to reform it. This will allow Parliament a substantial amount of time to scrutinise and report on reforming legislation, if Parliament wishes to do so. As such, these powers are clearly not comparable in terms of scope.

Furthermore, the legislative reform order process is not time-limited. It is still ongoing and available after 17 years, whereas this power will expire three years and three days from today. This is crucial when you consider how long parliamentary processes can take. Amendment 42D envisages up to 60 sitting days for Parliament to consider and debate proposals for statutory instruments, and potentially time after that for further scrutiny before the SIs can be made. We have supported and encouraged the initiative, which started in this House, to maximise transparency around the Government’s plans for retained EU law reform via regular reports to Parliament. In our view, this additional 60-day pre-scrutiny period is simply not required.

Therefore, the Government cannot accept a requirement that would place such a significant time restraint on the usage of the power. Doing so would substantially reduce the time available for the power to be used, which is clearly not an appropriate balance between scrutiny and reform. The clause currently provides for this balance in a much more sustainable way; the third limb of the power already requires the affirmative procedure by default, and the second limb is automatically pushed to the affirmative procedure under specific circumstances. For all other circumstances, the sifting committee exists to recommend upgrading the scrutiny procedure, if Parliament judges it necessary. For all these reasons, the Government cannot accept the amendment.

On Motion A1, of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, I am once again clear that Amendment 15D is unnecessary. I and many other Ministers have committed to uphold our environmental protections. Equally, the consultation part of the amendment is also irrelevant, as the Government remain committed to consulting on major policy changes, in line with usual practice. We take Dispatch Box commitments very seriously as a Government and will not shirk away from the commitments we have already made during the passage of this Bill.

This amendment is therefore unnecessary. The Government are clear that we have set a strong direction of travel on environmental regulation with our actions across this Parliament, and nothing in this Bill will change that. I therefore ask noble Lords to support Motions A and B on the Order Paper today. I beg to move.

Motion A1 (as an amendment to Motion A)

Moved by

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[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly because I agree with everything that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, just said. We are grateful to the Minister for what he said in his introduction to this debate and to all noble Lords who have contributed and engaged with this Bill since the beginning. However, we on these Benches think that the Government should join us in insisting on Lords Amendments 15B and 42D, as they now are. We agree with noble Lords that their amendments in lieu are sensible compromises and remain deeply concerned by the potential for the protection of our environment, in particular, to be watered down without such protection on the face of the Bill. It seems slightly odd that the Government have compromised on the fundamental purpose and shape of this Bill in removing the sunset, which was a huge thing for them to do. It is strange that they are now determined to hold out on these two relatively minor outstanding issues, which are about improved scrutiny and environmental protection.

The proposal from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, is a proportionate and necessary compromise. The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, is correct to highlight the inadequacy of the verbal commitment offered by the Minister, which obviously may not stand the test of time. These are important principles. Should the noble and learned Lord and the noble Lord wish to test the opinion of the House, we on these Benches will support them.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, we have had this debate numerous times now, so the House will be delighted to know that I can keep my response fairly brief. I have responded to all the points made previously because noble Lords have repeated many of the points that they made in earlier debates.

Interestingly, the one person who did not repeat the points that he made in earlier debates was the noble Lord, Lord Fox; I was surprised to hear him say that he will support the Anderson/Hope amendment because, in the previous round, in response to a similar point about endless ping-pong made by my noble friend Lord Hamilton, the noble Lord, Lord Fox, said:

“I respectfully suggest that we are not proposing”


endless ping-pong but that

“we are proposing one more ping and one more pong”.—[Official Report, 6/6/23; col. 1262.]

Unlike some of the sceptics behind me, I have faith in what the Liberal Democrats say. I am absolutely certain that, because that is what the noble Lord, Lord Fox, said last time, he will join us in the Lobby this evening. We have hope yet; I am sure that the Liberal Democrats would not want to go back on their word.

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Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 42B, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 42C.

42C: Because the Commons consider the scrutiny procedure imposed by the Lords Amendment to be inappropriate.

Electricity and Gas (Energy Company Obligation) Order 2023

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Tuesday 20th June 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Electricity and Gas (Energy Company Obligation) Order 2023.

Relevant document: 43rd Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the draft order, which was laid before the House on 24 May, be approved. Since it was introduced in 2013, the energy company obligation—ECO—scheme has ensured that around 2.4 million predominantly low-income households have received much-needed support to improve the energy efficiency of their homes. The Government committed in the Growth Plan 2022 and the energy security plan to place a new obligation on energy suppliers to deliver vital energy efficiency upgrades, helping hundreds of thousands more households to take action to reduce their energy bills by making their homes cheaper to heat.

The order delivers on these commitments by introducing a new energy company obligation, the Great British insulation scheme, to run until March 2026. Alongside establishing the GBI scheme, the order introduces some small additions to the existing ECO4 scheme, providing heating support for certain households which are not currently eligible for these measures.

I turn to the detail of the order. The order establishes the GBI scheme in law as a complement to the existing ECO scheme—ECO4—in Great Britain. Its main provisions are: an additional energy company obligation to run from 2023 to 2026, boosting previously planned energy-efficiency investments by another £1 billion across this period; a focus on the rapid installation of the most cost-effective, single insulation measures; and the extension of support through the ECO schemes to a much wider group of households living in the least energy-efficient homes in the lower council tax bands, who are also now challenged by higher energy bills.

The Great British insulation scheme will boost further the support already available through ECO4 that targets low-income and vulnerable households, those most at risk of being in fuel poverty. Energy suppliers must deliver at least 20% of the new help available through the scheme to these households. This low-income group will include those on means-tested benefits as well as households in the least energy-efficient social housing. Fuel-poor homes in the private rented sector will also benefit, building on the provisions of existing regulations.

Working alongside this low-income minimum, the scheme’s flexible eligibility provisions will offer additional routes to reach those on low incomes or in other ways vulnerable, such as through ill health, but where households may not be in receipt of benefits. These flexible eligibility provisions will enable local authorities, energy suppliers, Citizens Advice and the NHS to work together to help those most vulnerable to the effects of living in a cold home.

As with previous ECO schemes, the obligation will be set based on annual bill savings. This incentivises energy suppliers to target those homes where the savings from energy-efficient measures will be greatest, also installing those measures that will have greatest impact. The scoring approach for this will mirror that used for ECO4, minimising complexity and any bureaucracy for industry.

Installation quality will be governed and assured under TrustMark’s compliance and certification framework. The quality of installations, alongside a whole assessment of the property, will continue to rely on independent industry standards—in this case, the publicly available specifications PAS 2030 and PAS 2035. The order also adds to the circumstances in which some heating measures, particularly solar PV and electric heating, can be available for households within the existing ECO4 scheme.

As a direct result of the boost provided by the GBI scheme, we estimate that around 376,000 measures will be installed in around an additional 315,000 homes. This is expected to save households, on average, £300 to £400 per year. To help to insulate as many homes as possible before next winter, the order permits measures installed since 30 March to count towards the suppliers’ obligation target. This provision was signalled to energy suppliers in the Government’s response to their earlier consultation on scheme design, which was published on that date.

I turn for a moment to that earlier government consultation, which was conducted towards the end of 2022. The scheme design encapsulated in the order we are now considering takes forward the main provisions set out within that consultation. The majority of consultation responses supported the proposals, including as central features the extension of energy efficiency help to the wider household group and a focus on the most cost-effective, single-insulation measures.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

First, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, and the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, for their contributions. I thank the noble Lord for complimenting my efforts to recruit Sadio Mané—who is a lovely guy, by the way. It is an interesting correlation, thinking about the priorities of most of the population, that if I tweet something on energy efficiency or that I have met someone to do with hydrogen schemes or whatever, I am lucky if I get 700, 1,000 or 2,000 views, but if I bump into a footballer in a hotel and tweet a picture, I get 85,000 views all across Europe. What we need to do is link famous footballers with energy efficiency and then perhaps we will get the message through.

Anyway, I turn now to the subject of the day. Improving the energy efficiency of our homes is the best long-term solution to reducing energy bills—I do not think anybody disagrees with that—and the corollary of tackling fuel poverty. That is why the Government have set a new and ambitious target to reduce our final energy demand from buildings and industry by 15% by 2030. The Energy Efficiency Taskforce is meeting at the moment to try to put some policies behind that. We are also committed to making sure that homes are warmer and cheaper to heat by investing £12 billion in various Help to Heat schemes, such as the home upgrade grant and social housing decarbonisation fund.

The Government remain committed to helping low-income and vulnerable households to reduce their fuel bills and heat their homes, with the new Great British insulation scheme being a crucial element of that help for this winter and for years to come.

I start with the contribution from the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, who asked a question on the targeting of the scheme and consumer contributions. This scheme mirrors the eligibility of the ECO4 scheme; there is in fact no limit on how many low-income consumers can be treated through the scheme. There is no mandatory requirement for contributions, and we do not assume any contributions for low-income consumers as we recognise that they are most in need.

The new general group is designed to capture a broader pool of households. I am sure that even the noble Baroness will accept that not everyone in fuel poverty is necessarily on benefits. We have a number of other schemes targeting those on lower incomes. This is the first scheme we have done for a while that allows those in the so-called able to pay grouping in the lower council tax band to also be eligible for support. That is the new general group; it is designed to capture a broader pool of households which are more likely to be able to contribute. Encouraging contributions through the scheme makes the scheme more cost-effective and ultimately enables more homes to be treated and more measures to be delivered. I am sure that is something the noble Baroness would support.

Suppliers are encouraged to leverage higher contributions from wealthier households and for more expensive measures, which would possibly be in bigger homes, ensuring that low-income and vulnerable households receive the support they need. As a market-led scheme, it is ultimately down to the installer to negotiate any contribution that the consumer is willing and able to pay, taking account of any property issues and of the measures to be installed.

The noble Lord, Lord Lennie, asked a question about monitoring. As with the existing scheme, Ofgem will work with energy suppliers to monitor progress and ensure compliance—including, if necessary, considering enforcement action should that be judged appropriate. As the independent regulator, it is ultimately a matter for Ofgem to judge the form and extent of any compliance action appropriate to the circumstances; it is only right and proper that it should do that.

Annual targets will initially be tracked using notified measures alongside other information. For the benefit of noble Lords, all measures that are installed are notified and lodged with TrustMark. Once the Ofgem digital system is in place to support it, this is intended to minimise any additional costs and bureaucracy from annual targets while still managing to drive momentum.

We have allowed flexibility through the analysis to allow industry to decide how to gather contributions. There is no firm requirement on how suppliers must do that. To reiterate—I made this point to the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh—there are no limits on the number of low-income homes that can be treated through the scheme. We have several schemes currently in operation, as I mentioned, which support low-income households. Of course, the original ECO scheme, ECO4—its latest iteration—the home upgrade grant and the social housing decarbonisation fund are all targeted at those on lower incomes. That is why we wanted this scheme to be open to a wider pool of households that are currently ineligible for any government support through existing schemes. As I said to the noble Baroness, suppliers are encouraged to leverage higher contributions from wealthier households for more expensive measures. Additionally, of course, there is no requirement for consumers to contribute, or to contribute a set amount through the scheme. It is market-led, and it is down to the installer to negotiate a contribution that the consumer is able and willing to pay.

For ease and pace of delivery, the GBIS aims to mirror as much of ECO4 as possible, keeping the same eligibility criteria for the low-income group that industry is currently very familiar with. That will help to ensure that the GBIS is able to deliver energy efficiency measures to those households as quickly as possible and provides energy suppliers with an incentive to deliver to that group, which they are already very familiar with.

The noble Lord, Lord Lennie, asked about innovation. We have a technical panel to determine and approve products as innovative through the scheme to ensure that consumers continue to be protected.

Once again, I thank both noble Lords for their contributions and the points they made during the debate. I also recognise the broad agreement that the scheme should continue at this time and should help to provide the critical support to an even greater pool of households that are currently challenged by higher energy bills. I commend this draft order to the Committee.

Motion agreed.

Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Thursday 8th June 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 1 to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 1A.

1A: Because it is not appropriate to restrict application of the Bill to England only.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I will also speak to Motion B. I will speak to both the Motions to not insist on these amendments and to resist Motions A1 and B1, which are amendments in lieu tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, and the noble Lord, Lord Fox.

I am delighted to be in the Chamber again following the consideration of this House’s amendments to the Bill in the other place. Although there was a thorough debate of these amendments and those we will look at next, they have been thoroughly rejected by the other place, which has resolved against amendments that would either delay implementation of the Bill or prevent it from achieving any of its policy objectives.

I recognise that this is a topic that Members of both Houses are passionate about and I agree with my colleague, the Minister for Enterprise, Markets and Small Business, that we have had a robust debate on it. However, I point out to the House that the other place resolved against these amendments by significant majorities of 61 and 55 respectively, which are significantly larger than the majorities of 24 and 31 that amended the Bill in the first place. That is also the case for the amendments that we will discuss in the next group. The elected Chamber has therefore given the Bill and the amendments made here its due consideration and Members there have made the position of their House very clear.

The House will be delighted to know that I do not intend to repeat the debate and the arguments that we have heard on the detail of the Bill here; the Government have already clearly set out their intentions and perspective here, which are reflected in the reasons for disagreement that have come back to us. The Government’s position, and that of the elected Chamber, is clear and I can confirm that the Government have no plans to concede on these issues given the ongoing industrial disputes that show the need for this Bill now more than ever. I therefore ask that noble Lords respect the clear wishes of the other place and, while of course I am always grateful for noble Lords’ insight, passion and expertise on this matter, I hope that this House does not insist on these amendments.

I will now address the amendments in lieu that have been tabled. I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, for his Motion A1, which seeks to limit the application of this Bill to England only, unless the Scottish Parliament and Senedd Cymru agree by resolution for it to apply in those nations. The noble and learned Lord submitted a similar amendment on Report and the Government continue to resist this change for the reasons that I set out then.

First, it is a statutory discretion for the employer as to whether to issue a work notice, taking into account any other legal requirements that the employer may have. However, more fundamentally, the purpose and substance of the Bill is to regulate employment rights and duties and industrial relations. This is a reserved matter, so the consent of devolved Parliaments for this legislation is rightly not required. To add in a requirement for this, as the amendment seeks to do, would create significant inconsistency with wider employment law and I suggest that it would also disturb the careful balance of the UK’s devolution settlement. We will of course, as we have throughout the passage of the Bill, continue to seek to engage with the devolved Governments as part of the development of minimum service levels in those areas.

Finally, Motion B1, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, relates to additional consultation requirements, assessment of impacts of the legislation and parliamentary scrutiny. As has been made clear to this House many times, sufficient checks and balances are already built into the legislation before regulations can be made. Motion B1 would delay implementation of minimum service levels for an indefinite period and thus extend the disproportionate impact that strikes can have on the public. I am afraid that the Government simply cannot accept that.

This Government recognise the significant role that the UK Parliament has played in scrutinising instruments. New Section 234F already ensures that the regulations will receive the appropriate level of scrutiny by both Houses and are subject to usual processes for consultation. I therefore urge this House not to amend the Bill in such a way that would cause significant delay to implementing minimum service levels, use up precious parliamentary time to duplicate parliamentary procedures and set some unhelpful precedents for future legislation. For all those reasons, the Government resist Motions A1 and B1 and I hope that noble Lords will agree not to press them. I beg to move.

Motion A1 (as an amendment to Motion A)

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd]

Moved by

At end insert “and do propose Amendment 1B in lieu—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I was so enjoying the debate on Motion A1 that I failed to stand up and speak to Motion B1 in my name. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, for not providing him with sufficient up-to-date quotations, but he seemed to manage. We have spent so much time on the Bill together that we probably know how each other thinks.

We are in familiar territory, and indeed were too with Motion A1, because this is a long-repeated trope of this Government. They seek to override not only the devolved authorities but our own Parliament here. Bill after Bill has measures that take powers that should rightfully be vested in Parliament and lodge them firmly with the Executive, with very little or negligible recourse. This amendment seeks to regain that balance.

We have had similar discussions many times. I will not go over all these, but I will remind the House very briefly why, in this case, it is very important. The centrepiece of this legislation is a system of predetermined minimum service levels which may be used by employers to determine the minimum manning levels in the event of a strike. If a strike is called, specific work orders have to be or may be issued, requiring named individuals to ignore the strike and go to work. If they do not, as the Bill stands, they can be sacked.

The scale of the minimum service level is key. The nearer it is to 100% of normal service, the smaller the number of people who can legitimately and legally strike becomes—to the point that it becomes almost zero, or zero, and strikes are banned. This is not an abstract argument: if you look at certain areas of emergency care or issues such as rail track signalling, it is clear that a very high level of presenteeism will be required to run those services. In effect, those people on that work order will therefore have their right to strike banned. Speaking as a Liberal, I say that this is a libertarian issue that we find very important.

The setting of these minimum services levels is a vital part of how this Bill will operate. As the Minister has said, some non-binding consultation is under way but as things stand, to all intents and purposes the scale of the minimum service levels is the Secretary of State’s decision and theirs alone. We find that unacceptable.

The Commons declined our last amendment on the grounds that there is “adequate consultation”. We think that there is not and would like to ask the Commons to revisit that process. This amendment would require that consultation takes place and is reviewed by a committee of each House of Parliament prior to regulations being made. That consultation would be more formal and set out in some detail compared to the informal and ad hoc nature of the consultation that is going on. As we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Collins, when he was quoting me, those consulted will include the relevant unions, employers and other interested parties and would include an assessment of the impact on the rights of those workers.

The Minister talked about time and how this would wrap up the process into indefinite time. I remind your Lordships that the original Bill from which this Bill is generated started about a year ago. That Bill of course referred to what was in the Conservative Party manifesto, unlike this one, which has been broadened way beyond the scope of what was in the manifesto. The Government have shown themselves very adept at setting up time for such things to be debated, yesterday being an example. I am sure that time is not the issue—“won’t” rather than “can’t” is what we are dealing with here.

In short, we seek through this Motion to regularise the consultation process and give a mandatory role for Parliament that is far more than we see. With most Governments, this might not be controversial but with this one there has been a pattern and it is systematic, so here we seek to reassert the role of parliamentary democracy. My noble friend talked about there being the potential for a constitutional crisis around the treatment of government and the devolved authorities, I think we are already heading in the same direction with the treatment by this Government of our Parliament.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all those who have contributed. The House will be pleased to know that I do not intend to detain noble Lords for very long. We have debated these matters extensively on a number of occasions in a very rigorous manner, so I do not intend to repeat all the arguments. But, let me just say very briefly, particularly in response to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, that we are certain that the minimum service levels are a reserved matter. They are reserved because they obviously apply only when there are strikes, which fall within employment rights and industrial relations. This is clearly a reserved matter under each of the devolution settlements for Scotland and Wales. Put another way, the Bill amends the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, the subject of which is specifically reserved under each of these settlements. I always hesitate to disagree with distinguished lawyers on matters of law but I am afraid that we just have a different opinion on this.

I addressed the points from the noble Lord, Lord Fox, in my opening remarks and will not repeat that. I acknowledge all those who have spoken. I understand the strength of opinion in the House on this but once again I point the House towards the other place—the elected place—and the clear will it has expressed on these matters. I urge the House not to prolong this matter unnecessarily and, while it looks as though we are going to vote on the Motion from the noble Lord, Lord Fox, I am grateful that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, indicated that he would not be dividing the House.

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

I beg the House’s leave to withdraw my Motion.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 2 to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 2A.

2A: Because the Bill already contains adequate consultation requirements.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 4 to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 4A.

4A: Because in order for the legislation to be effective, it is necessary for there to be consequences for an employee who fails to comply with a work notice.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, in moving Motion C, with the leave of the House, I will also speak to Motion D.

Motions C and D in my name cover this House’s Amendments 4, 5, 6 and 7, which removed key parts of the legislation that are necessary to make it effective and to ensure that minimum service levels can in fact be achieved. It is therefore unsurprising that the other place resolved against these amendments with, I remind the House once again, larger majorities than those that amended the Bill in this House. The Government continue to maintain that the approach taken by this legislation is fair and proportionate. To achieve a minimum service level, employers, workers and trade unions all have their part to play.

Motion C and the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady O’Grady, proposed in lieu of Lords Amendment 4, deal with the consequences of non-compliance with a work notice. As I have said previously, the approach taken by this legislation is fair and proportionate. It enables employers to manage instances of non-compliance in exactly the same way that they would with any other unauthorised absence.

As I have made clear on a number of occasions, an employee losing their automatic protection from unfair dismissal for industrial action, if they participated in a strike contrary to a work notice, does not automatically mean that they will be dismissed—just as failing to attend work without a valid reason normally does not mean that they will be dismissed. It simply enables employers to pursue disciplinary action if they believe it is appropriate, but it is ultimately at the discretion of the employer. I believe that this is the right approach to ensure that minimum service levels will be achieved, while protecting workers in a way that aligns with existing legislation. On that basis, I resist the amendment proposed in lieu.

On Motion D, which covers the role of trade unions, it appears in the amendment proposed in lieu of Lords Amendment 5 that the noble Lord, Lord Collins, accepts that there may be a role for unions to play in ensuring that minimum service levels can be met. However, I strongly believe that it cannot be at the discretion of a trade union as to whether and how it advises and encourages its members to comply with work notices. There must be some consequences if they do not take reasonable steps. On that basis, the Government therefore resist this amendment.

I have noted the feedback from the House, including in the Joint Committee on Human Rights. The Government are willing to consider whether there may be a case for providing further details on what “reasonable steps” are and what it means for trade unions. What we cannot do, however, is accept an amendment such as the one proposed. Without a responsibility for unions to ensure that their members comply, and without any incentives for employees to attend work on a strike day when they have been identified in a work notice, the effectiveness of this legislation is, I am afraid, severely undermined—and I suspect that is the purpose of the amendments.

I cannot therefore accept a continuation of the risk to lives and livelihoods as a result of the disproportionate impact of these strikes. I therefore ask that the House supports Motions C and D to address this, and I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady O’Grady, and the noble Lord, Lord Collins, will not move their respective Motions C1 and D1. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, we have once again had a reasonably full debate on these matters, so the House will be relieved that I will keep my response brief. We have largely covered many of these points before, so we do not need to repeat them.

Briefly, in response to the noble Baroness, Lady O’Grady, I restate the view of the Government that this Bill is not about sacking workers, and nor is it about forced labour, which is a frankly ridiculous exaggeration. It simply equips employers to manage instances of non-compliance with a work notice. That is exactly the same situation as any other strike action that is not protected under existing legislation.

To be clear, under the original drafting of the Bill an employee who went on strike contrary to being named on a work notice would lose their automatic protection from unfair dismissal only provided that they were notified in advance of the requirement for them to work and that they must comply with the work notice. We expect employees to be told if they are required to work and, in that case, what work they are required to do. In such circumstances, it is reasonable for an employer to consider, if it wishes, disciplinary action if an individual none the less chooses to continue to strike, thereby putting the public at risk. It is at the discretion of the employer as to what, if any, disciplinary action is taken in these circumstances. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, the Government expect employers to be fair and reasonable and to take this action only where it is necessary.

Unions must have a role to play in minimum service levels, otherwise they would be able to induce people to strike as normal and take steps to undermine minimum service levels being achieved. That directly counters the objectives of this policy. The consequences of a union failing to play that role are consistent with any other failures by a union to comply with any other existing law.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, as I said in my opening speech the Government are willing to consider whether there is a case to provide further detail on what reasonable steps are, what this means for trade unions and how they might fulfil those obligations.

I stress to this House that Motions C1 and D1 would continue the prolonged and disproportionate impact of strike action on the public. With this legislation, the Government are taking a fair and proportionate approach to balance the fundamental ability of unions and their members to strike, on the one hand, with the need for the wider public to access some of the key services that they expect and pay for, on the other. I therefore hope that the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and the noble Baroness, Lady O’Grady, do not push their amendments. I commend the government Motions to the House.

[Baroness O'Grady of Upper Holloway (Lab)]

I wish to test the opinion of the House.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

That this House do not insist on its Amendments 5, 6 and 7, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reasons 5A, 6A and 7A.

5A: Because the amendment would remove the requirement for a union to take reasonable steps to ensure that members comply with a work notice in order for strike action to be protected, and this would reduce the impact of the legislation.

SMEs: Net-zero Targets

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Wednesday 7th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Blake of Leeds]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to support small and medium-sized enterprises in working towards net-zero targets.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have launched a campaign aimed at increasing the energy efficiency of businesses, charities and public sector bodies. We continue to support UK businesses to meet their net-zero commitments via the UK business climate hub. SMEs are encouraged to join the UN’s Race to Zero initiative; more than 4,200 UK small businesses have done so. We are also developing a dedicated energy advice service for SMEs, which is due by the end of the year.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I am sure that we all value the important contribution that SMEs make to our economy. One of the issues consistently facing them is their ability to employ and retain skilled workers in a highly competitive jobs market. This is especially prevalent where skills are lacking, such as in retrofitting buildings and in new green technologies. The scale of the challenge of achieving net-zero targets presents SMEs working in these areas with a great opportunity. However, barriers such as shortages of skills and available finance are preventing them making the progress that they seek to achieve. What steps are the Government taking to promote green jobs, skills training and competitive supply chains, particularly by working with industry, the education sector and the finance sector to create pathways into these jobs?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes an important point. The encouragement of green jobs and helping workers to go from the old fossil fuel economy to new jobs is a challenge. We are spending several billion pounds a year working with the DfE and across the various green homes grants. We have a number of highly skilled green jobs funds, which industry accessed. There is no one simple answer but she is right; it is a job that we are working on.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, earlier today, I spoke to an owner-manager of an SME in the print industry in my part of the world. She said that her biggest issue in trying to become a B Corp SME is getting information from big suppliers on their scope 3 emissions, which is really important for SMEs that want to go down this path. Could the Minister take this issue and how it might be solved back to his department, or give me an idea of how that issue might be approached by the Government in future?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord makes an important point. We are aware of this issue. We are increasing the reporting requirements for bigger companies. We must be careful to make sure that we do not put too many undue burdens on business but I will certainly have a look at the issue for the noble Lord.

[Lord St John of Bletso (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that there is no clear consensus as to what net zero entails for SMEs? With them accounting for 99% of all businesses in the United Kingdom, what are the Government doing to standardise pathways to net zero among these businesses?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Of course it will vary depending on the type of business. Many businesses are already working in green areas. A lot of them are involved in retrofitting. On the other hand, some of them are very energy intensive. There are different solutions for different businesses.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, given that their competitors in Germany and elsewhere are extending the deadline for ending the production of motor cars with internal combustion engines, are we not in danger of making our large car manufacturers into small and medium-sized enterprises as they are being forced to reduce production, with great consequences for employment and competitiveness?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I normally agree with my noble friend, but I do not on this solitary occasion: I think he is wrong. Other major economies, including the EU, are essentially doing a similar job—they have made a couple of small exceptions to the ban with things such as novel fuels. Providing certainty for industry and business is the direction they need to go in. Supporting them in the appropriate areas, ensuring that the right gigafactories are completed in the UK, is the way to go, in my view.

[Baroness Blackstone (Lab)]

My Lords, one way to help small and medium-sized businesses is to remove barriers to trade. Given that the UK and the EU both have carbon pricing, would it be possible for the UK and the EU to agree to waive the requirements for exporters and importers to calculate and report on carbon emissions from products traded between the EU and the UK?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes an important point. We want to make trade as simple and easy as possible. I will certainly take the point back to the trade department.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. The Minister talked about the importance of providing certainty for business and small and medium-sized enterprises. One of the barriers to those enterprises investing in skills training is uncertainty about programmes such as retrofitting and energy efficiency, which have been marred by stop- go policies in the past. Will the Minister look again at the Government’s opposition to the energy efficiency proposals in the Energy Bill?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am afraid that I do not agree with the noble Baroness. We have an extensive energy efficiency programme. We are spending £6.6 billion over this Parliament. I agree that long-term consistency and certainty are important, which is why the Treasury has guaranteed an additional £6 billion from 2025 for precisely these measures.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have a very ambitious net-zero target and part of that is their ambitious target for the installation of heat pumps, which, frankly, at the moment they look like they are not going to meet. The Minister’s own department’s figures suggest that the great majority of heat pumps so far installed in this country are produced abroad. Is there not a way in pursuit of this ambitious target to ensure that a much greater number of heat pumps installed in this country are produced in this country by British manufacturers rather than sending the business abroad?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I agree very much with my noble friend, and we are working with a number of manufacturers looking to relocate production to the UK. I think his figures in terms of the percentage produced in the UK are slightly wrong. Mitsubishi in Scotland produces a large number of heat pumps and there are a number of ground source heat pump manufacturers as well. We want more relocated into the UK. We are looking at a market mechanism with the boiler manufacturers, and have a grant programme to relocate production facilities into the UK.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord St John, pointed out, 99% of businesses in this country are SMEs and many will not be able to reach carbon neutrality. What are the Government going to do to try to help them with carbon offsetting?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My noble friend makes a good point. Of course, carbon offsetting is a controversial area. We must ensure that any offsetting that takes place is genuine, viable and reduces real-world carbon production.

[Lord Trees (CB)]

My Lords, because the net-zero metric does not include all the emissions associated with imported products, does the Minister agree that we must bear in mind our total carbon footprint on any activity in the UK which uses imports, so that we are not unnecessarily exporting our emissions? That would be of no help whatsoever in combating global warming.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I agree. Carbon leakage is an important problem, and one of the reasons why a number of the larger industries are subject to international competition, as the noble Lord mentioned. We give them free permit allocations under the emissions trading system.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, are the Government looking at the efficiency of heat pumps? Have they monitored them, and will they produce a report on their cost and effectiveness?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Indeed, we have already done so. There have been a number of reports on the efficiency of heat pumps. Efficiency varies depending on the quality of the installation. We must ensure that they are installed properly in the appropriate properties with the right number of emitters. I am happy to send copies of the reports that we have done to the noble Lord.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, a number of SMEs operate in old buildings. When retrofitting to improve insulation considerably, we rapidly come up against planning restrictions. Are the Government doing their best to reconcile the preservation of the built environment with the need for much more efficient insulation of old housing?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

“Yes” is the short answer to the noble Lord’s question. I am on a working party with DLUHC looking at some of the planning barriers that exist. The conclusion is that there are not many legislative barriers; it is just the views taken by different planning officers in different local authorities. Like the noble Lord, we value local authority autonomy to decide these things for themselves, but there is perhaps more of a role for government guidance in these matters.

Climate: Behaviour Change (Environment and Climate Change Committee Report)

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Wednesday 7th June 2023 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, first, I join virtually every other speaker by congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, on bringing forward this debate today, the committee on the report on the Government’s approach to enabling behaviour change, and the many businesses, local authorities, charities and others who contributed to its content.

I start by reassuring the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, and my noble friend Lord Howell that we take very seriously the need to engage the public on net zero and the environment, and we recognise that achieving our goals will require changes not only to our energy systems and infrastructure but to our everyday life, such as the way we travel and heat our homes.

The Government will continue to engage the public on the challenge of delivery and on their role and their views, building on what I think are existing strong levels of public support. We very much view the transition to our goals as a joint effort between government, business and civil society. On this point, I can reassure the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, that the transition must involve all society working together. We continue to work closely with partners in local authorities, voluntary sector organisations and, of course, crucially, business, which all play an extremely important role in how we use and choose different services.

I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Lilley for his points on this matter, and I reassure him that our approach is to support the public in making these green choices in a way that maintains choice and freedoms, which includes adopting new low-carbon technologies and using energy technologies and services more efficiently—but emphasising the importance of individual freedom.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford asked how the Government’s energy and leadership on behaviour change match the scale of the crisis—I think that was how he put it. The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, also asked about our strategy on behaviour change. I point both noble Lords to our net-zero growth plan and our environmental improvement plan, where we set out clear principles about how we will empower the public to make those green choices by making them significantly easier, clearer, and, crucially, more affordable, and we continue to work with industry to remove some of those barriers. The plans set out a consistent and co-ordinated approach for engaging the public across net zero and the environment, in both communicating the challenge and giving people a say in shaping future policies.

The purpose of the Government’s approach and the principles we have set out is not, again to reassure my noble friend Lord Lilley, to stop people doing things; it is about enabling people to do the same things differently and more sustainably—to make society greener by design, if you like. We also want the approach to support co-benefits—whether that is in health, well-being or, crucially, our wallets.

The noble Lords, Lord St John of Bletso, Lord Grantchester and Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, made points about our approach to public engagement and asked when we would publish a public engagement strategy. Again, I reassure noble Lords that, in the net zero-growth plan, we announced that we will set out further detail on how the Government will increase public engagement on net zero. As part of this work, we will develop a guiding framework on public engagement, in conjunction with partners and trusted messengers, of course, to amplify the net-zero messaging. In the net-zero growth plan, we committed to supporting public awareness of our actions through our various digital platforms, and we are developing a road map, setting out plans and proposals under net zero.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, asked about government plans to enable behaviour change at a local level and how we can take a place-based approach to the delivery of net zero. They both made good points on this. Again, the Government recognise that local authorities can and do play an essential role in driving local action. For example, the Government have provided funding for local on-street electric-vehicle charging infrastructure for all local authorities in England, and they have committed £470 million for local electric vehicle charging over three financial years, up to 2024-25. Of course, as I have said many times in this House, virtually all our energy-efficiency programmes are delivered through, and with the support of, local authorities and housing associations.

I thank the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, for highlighting the importance of working with trusted messengers, including faith groups. The above-mentioned public engagement framework will consider this point.

On the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, about Defra’s action on waste, it is important to balance the urgency with the scale of the change needed. We need to ensure that our policies are effective. In that respect, we are working to introduce extended producer responsibility for packaging from 2024, to move the cost of dealing with household packaging waste to businesses that supply that packaging. Emphasising the importance of getting it right, we of course look at what is happening in Scotland and aim for our deposit-return scheme to begin from October 2025, ensuring that consumers are able to redeem a deposit when they return a single-use drinks container. We aim to publish our response to that consultation on local authorities, providing a comprehensive and consistent service across the whole of England.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, referred to a carbon calculator and we have considered this recommendation. In fact, several carbon calculators are already in use, and we are exploring whether there is a user need for new content on net zero on GOV.UK, or whether there is a greater need for additional digital information, rather than a stand-alone calculator tool.

I agree with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Birt, about making green choices easier for consumers. We will seek to address all the major practical barriers to individual behaviours by removing frictions and minimising the disruption to people’s lives. We need to take people with us on this journey.

The transport decarbonisation plan commits to better integrating transport modes, including many more bus routes serving railway stations and improved integration of cycling and walking networks. To make green choices clearer, we aim to increase the provision of high-quality information to the public, including exploring how we better label products and services.

The noble Lord, Lord Birt, referred to the need to work together to achieve our behaviour-change goals, I reassure him that the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero has a steering and co-ordinating function across government to deliver our net-zero strategy. Teams from across government continue to seek ways to support co-ordination across net zero and to support environmental, green choices.

The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and the noble Lord, Lord Birt, asked about the UK’s electric vehicle infrastructure network. In March 2022, the Government published their extremely ambitious electric vehicle infrastructure strategy, which sets out a coherent vision and commitments to accelerate the rollout of world-class electric vehicle charging networks and get charge points on to the ground more cheaply and quicker. The majority of EV drivers at the moment charge at home, and we expect that to continue, but we are also committed to ensuring that a robust public charging network is in place to enable long distance journeys and, of course, for the many people who do not benefit from on-site parking and need to charge on the street.

The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked about the Government’s action to reach net zero. The Government are committed to making their own estate and operations more sustainable and resilient, and the greening government commitments illustrate what they are doing to improve their environmental impact and promote greater efficiencies. I also point him to the public sector decarbonisation scheme, which is very successfully rolling out energy infrastructure improvements across the public sector.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, referenced the Government’s commitment to active travel. I reassure him that the Government are committed to helping people to walk and cycle where they can, and that we are investing around £3 billion in active travel up to 2025, despite the efficiency savings needed due to global financial pressures. The Department for Transport has also recently established a new executive agency, Active Travel England, responsible for making walking, wheeling and cycling the preferred choice for everyone in England to get around, where they can.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rees, for raising the important issue of the circular economy. Again, we want to make it the norm to reduce, reuse and recycle. The previously mentioned policies on waste reform will play a key role in delivering that strategy. Alongside that, we continue to support key developing technologies, including funding the circular economy hub, which will establish circular innovation centres for industries including textiles, metals and chemicals.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh raised the importance of listening to people’s views on climate change across the spectrum and highlighted some of the work of the Climate Assembly UK. Of course, we listen to any views put to us by either individual members of the public or assemblies and we have the Public Attitudes Tracker and the People and Nature Survey for England, which inform us where the public are on these issues. We also regularly fund public workshops and deliberative dialogues to inform a wide range of policy areas, including, in recent years, on net zero, heating, transport decarbonisation, hydrogen, carbon capture usage and storage and advanced nuclear technologies.

As I have set out today, the Government recognise that achieving net zero and environmental goals has to be a shared endeavour, requiring action from everyone in society, including people, businesses and, of course, the Government. We are committed to taking practical steps to support the public to make green choices in a way that supports their choice but, crucially, maintains their fundamental freedoms. We will continue to take this approach across our net-zero and environmental policies to support the UK’s transition to a green and sustainable future.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 6th June 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 1A.

1A: Leave out subsections (1B) to (1D)

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, in moving Motion A, I will also speak to the other Motions in this group. It feels very recent that we had Third Reading on the Bill, as the other place has returned it remarkably quickly.

Motion A covers this House’s Amendment 1. The original amendment was to require a Joint Committee to consider the revocation list and to arrange debates in both Houses with respect to anything that represented a change to the law before the legislation on it could be revoked. I thank the noble Lords who sponsored this amendment for not pushing it again today.

Motions B and B1 cover the Commons disagreement to Lords Amendment 6. I sympathise with the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, in lieu of Amendment 6 on its intent to help establish legal clarity. Indeed, one of the main purposes of the Bill is to simplify the statute book. However, in my view, such an amendment is not necessary. The amendment seeks to clarify that the new clause “Retained EU law dashboard and report”, inserted by Lords Amendment 16, will include those rights, powers and liabilities referred to in Section 4 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. I am happy to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, today that the Government intend to ensure that rights, powers, and liabilities referred to in Section 4 of the 2018 Act will be included in future dashboard updates and accompanying reporting. The Government will include those rights, powers and liabilities that they have explicitly codified or intend to codify, as well as those they have decided not to codify because they are no longer fit for purpose. I hope that this provides the necessary clarity around which matters, originally retained under Section 4 of the 2018 Act, will be codified into domestic law. I thank the noble Lord for his valuable and collegiate engagement on this matter. I hope that this commitment provides him with the reassurance he is looking for and that he therefore will not press his Motion.

Turning to the Motion to amend the drafting of what was Amendment 16, I know that many noble Lords have strong views on Amendment 16 and the Motions concerning it. The other place inserted further measures to strengthen the reporting requirements and to ensure that the Government inform Parliament of their progress on using the powers in the Bill and their forthcoming plans on a more frequent basis. The Motion in my name therefore simply tidies that drafting and, on that basis, I hope that the House is able to support it.

Finally, I call on the House to reject the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson. The Government recognise the significant role that Parliament has played in scrutinising instruments and are committed to ensuring the appropriate scrutiny under the delegated powers in the Bill, including any instruments made under the powers to revoke or replace. This amendment would impose a novel and untested scrutiny procedure on regulations proposed to be made using the powers to revoke or replace. This novel approach is, in our view, simply unnecessary.

The Government will ensure that any significant retained EU law reforms will receive the appropriate level of scrutiny by the relevant legislatures and are subject to all the usual processes for consultation and impact assessment. However, it is important that we ensure that the limited amount of parliamentary time available is used appropriately and effectively.

The existing sifting procedures in the Bill have been purposely drafted as a safeguarding measure for these powers and already contain adequate scrutiny. They allow for additional scrutiny for the exercise of the power to revoke or replace, while retaining the flexibility of using the negative procedure where there are good reasons to do so—for example, in repealing redundant rules that no longer have any purpose on the UK statute book.

In addition, in certain situations, notably the use of subsection (3), the affirmative procedure continues to be required. The existing procedure will give the UK Parliament the opportunity to take an active role in the development of this legislation. It is a tried and tested method of parliamentary scrutiny which, in my view, delivers good results for everyone and draws on the experience of our parliamentary committees. We will, of course, respect the judgment of the sifting committees relevant to the Bill, in the same way as we did for the EU withdrawal Act. Therefore, I do not consider the proposed amendments to be necessary. I hope this provides the House with sufficient reassurance on this matter.

[Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to Motions B1 and E1 in my name in this group. Having heard the Minister, I can be brief on Motion B1, which concerns a sometimes-neglected part of the Bill. Clause 3 is headed “Revocation of retained EU rights, powers, liabilities etc”. That clause is unaffected by the Government’s concession on the sunset and continues to provide for all directly affected provisions of EU law—whether they are found in the treaty, in directives, or in international agreements—to be revoked at the end of the year. My concern in tabling this amendment has been to know precisely what is being revoked and what will be proposed by way of replacement.

To that end, Motion B1, which builds on the helpful amendment originally proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, seeks a guarantee that the directly affected provisions will be fully included in dashboard updates, as they have not been to date, and that the Government will give us clear warning in advance of those which they intend to carry over into our law and those which they may have decided not to carry over.

Unpicking provisions so deeply embedded in our law will not be a simple business. I declare an interest as a lawyer who sometimes needs to advise in this area. Such a commitment will be helpful to anyone who needs to understand what our law provides and how it is intended to be changed. I am grateful to the Minister and the Bill team for their constructive engagement on this issue, and for the clear commitments that he has just offered. In the circumstances, I am confident that I do not need to trouble the House with a Division on this issue.

Motion E1 is of a constitutional nature and concerns what, to some of us, has always been the most troubling feature of the Bill. It is nothing to do with the dashboard, direct effect or even the end-of-year sunset. It is rather the delegated superpower, headed “Powers to revoke or replace”, which currently appears as Clause 14. I remind the House of its most remarkable feature, subsection (3), which states:

“A relevant national authority may by regulations revoke any secondary retained EU law and make such alternative provision as the relevant national authority considers appropriate”.


That power will last until June 2026, which even we in the ivory tower of these Benches understand is some time after the next general election. It allows the Government to make regulations that Parliament cannot amend or, in practice, block, even when those regulations have quite different objectives from the laws that they replace, as the Bill makes clear.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to speak briefly to Motion E1 and to start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, for his work on this amendment and throughout consideration of the Bill. Noble Lords will be aware that the amendment differs from the one we debated in Committee and on Report. They will also know that, since the Bill was first published, we have been concerned that it gives Ministers far too much power without reference to Parliament. Clause 15 was especially difficult for parliamentarians to accept, given the extraordinarily wide-ranging powers to rewrite regulations which, in effect, could have similar power to primary legislation. This point was made by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, but it is worth repeating.

Motion E1 allows for a committee to consider regulations when they are rewritten by Ministers and, where necessary, to refer them to the House for consideration. This is a more modest suggestion than that proposed and agreed by this House at Report. As we have heard, a not dissimilar process was used for the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 and, as the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, informed us, the Census Act.

Our view is that this approach is proportionate, not obstructive of the Government’s intentions and should be acceptable to them. We are concerned that the Commons has so far continued to push back on parliamentary scrutiny and views the procedure proposed by this House as inappropriate, but we hope that the newly constructed amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, will be welcomed by the Government and the other place.

The Commons has expressed a view, but we are returning to it a compromise. We on these Benches consider it to be the appropriate, reasonable and responsible thing to do. Following the question of the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, about whether we are imposing ourselves on the other place, I note that it adjourned a couple of hours ago and seems to have adequate time in its schedule to consider a rather modest suggestion from this House.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, once again, we have had a full, worthy debate on the Bill. I will keep my response brief, as many of these points are well worn and we have largely covered them in opening the debate.

I say to the House that this is not just an ordinary legislative amendment; it is about the procedures of Parliament. It is not even about the procedures of this House; it is about the procedures of the other place. The amendment seeks for this House to say to the House of Commons, “We think that you should set up by legislation an entirely untested and novel way of conducting your scrutiny of secondary legislation”, when the House of Commons has already said it does not wish to do that and does not think it appropriate. It is entirely inappropriate for us to do that when we have already heard the answer once.

The Bill is vital, and now that we have taken back control of our statute book, it is essential to update and modernise by amending, repealing or replacing those rules and regulations that are no longer fit or were never fit for the UK. This will allow us to create a new pro-growth, high-standards regulatory framework to give businesses the confidence to innovate, invest and create jobs. It will provide legal certainty and clarity across the statute book, ensuring we have consistent rules of interpretation across the UK body of law.

Let me mention briefly some of the points raised in the debate. On Motions B and B1, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, for his speech. I hope that the House will move forward with Motion B.

Let me reply briefly to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, on the timescale for this work. We will add Section 4 rights to the dashboard as identified at least as frequently as every six months, as per the reporting requirement clause that is already in the Bill.

With regards to Motion E1, as I have already said, the Government listened to the views of this House on a number of issues in the Bill. We have already modified the schedule massively to take account of the many concerns that were addressed. I have to say, I consider it an unfair characterisation that the Government have ignored this House—far from it. It is much to the contrary.

On the Motion itself, I can only stress to the House that we believe this proposed novel scrutiny procedure to be unnecessary. The House of Commons has said that it also believes it to be unnecessary. With the reporting requirements already in the Bill and the proven sifting committee procedure that we have already agreed, Parliament will have strong provisions to scrutinise any legislation that is brought forward under this Bill. In the Government’s view, the appropriate balance between the need for scrutiny and the need for reform has been struck. I therefore hope that noble Lords will not push forward this amendment.

Motion A agreed.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 6, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 6A.

6A: Because the retention of anything which is retained EU law by virtue of section 4 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 would be inconsistent with the abolition of the principle of supremacy of EU law.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 15, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 15A.

15A: Because the Commons do not consider the Lords Amendment necessary in order to maintain environmental protection or food standards.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, in moving Motion C, I will also speak to Motion C1, both of which relate to Lords Amendment 15.

We have had myriad discussions on environmental protections during the passage of the REUL Bill. I can only stress once again that the Government have no intention of lowering environmental standards, nor of breaching their international obligations. This not only makes the restrictions that this amendment places on the usage of the reforming powers with regard to the environment unnecessary; it also risks delaying or even preventing reform where it would be beneficial to do so. Indeed, as drafted, this amendment may in fact also make it more difficult for departments to ensure that the policy effect of environmental regulations can be maintained at the end of the year through exercising the restatement power. By doing so, it could actively undermine the purpose that it seeks to achieve.

As I and Ministers in the other place have set out previously, the Government are fully committed to upholding environmental standards. Defra has already reformed retained EU law in a number of key areas through flagship legislation, such as the Fisheries Act 2020 and the Agriculture Act 2020. In addition, since leaving the EU, the Government have also passed the landmark Environment Act 2021 and published strategies including the Environmental Improvement Plan 2023. Any changes to legislation will need to support these ambitions as well as be consistent with our international obligations. Furthermore, Defra has in many areas already reformed its retained EU law to streamline and update it without diminishing—in fact, strengthening in some cases—our levels of environmental protection.

We are very clear that this sets a direction of travel on environmental regulation that makes this amendment unnecessary and, as I said, the amendment may make it more difficult to reach the ambition on environmental protections that I am sure is shared widely across the House. I therefore ask the House to support Motion C and the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, to withdraw his Motion C1.

Motion C1 (as an amendment to Motion C)

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

As the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, said, this is very uncontroversial. I await the Minister’s response with interest, but if the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, wishes to test the opinion of the House, he will have our strong support.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, I can keep my response brief. I have lost track of the number of times during the passage of the Bill that we have had this debate. We had it in Committee, on Report and we are having it now—and of course it was repeated in the House of Commons. The House of Commons has heard the assurances of the Government. I suspect that nothing else I can say will change most Members’ minds but, for the benefit of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, I will repeat the arguments again.

The noble Lord’s Motion proposes to insert additional measures into the Bill on environmental protections. I appreciate the sentiment, and we recognise the importance of maintaining our environmental standards, but the Government do not believe this amendment to be necessary. The UK is a world leader in environmental protection, despite what the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, wants to tell us, and we will continue to uphold our environmental protections. Furthermore, in a debate in the other place, the House of Commons rejected essentially a similar amendment by a majority of 77.

We are committed to our environmental protections. Nothing in this Bill changes that commitment. As I referenced in my opening speech, we have substantive concerns that this amendment, in the way that it is worded, would actually make it more difficult to uphold those environmental commitments. I hope that, if the Motion is moved to a vote, the House will reject it.

[Lord Krebs (CB)]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate, and I thank the Minister for his response. I will not speak for very long but I want to make three specific comments in response to particular points that have been made.

The noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, referred to food standards. I remind noble Lords that this version of the amendment does not include food, so the noble Lord can relax in his seat and not worry about food.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, seemed to imply that the amendment would somehow fossilise existing regulations in relation to the environment. It is not about fossilising existing regulations; it is about allowing change and improvement as long as they do not dilute environmental protection and as long as they are made in consultation with, and on the advice of, experts, and that that advice is published. This is not trying to freeze things in 2023 at all. I hope that provides reassurance.

As a final point, in response to the Minister, who repeated the oft-quoted mantra that the UK is “world-leading” in environmental protection, I remind him of what I read out less than half an hour ago from the Government’s own watchdog. It makes grim reading. We are failing on all the targets that the OEP looked at. We are not world-leading; we are struggling. This simple and modest amendment aims to put further legal protections around what the Government claim they are doing anyway; it is simple, modest and straight- forward.

I would not like to be the one going home to explain to my children and grandchildren that I stood up and voted against protecting our environment. I hope that other noble Lords feel the same—that those who have children or grandchildren and are thinking of the future would want to protect the environment on their behalf. Therefore, I wish to ask the House to agree to Motion C1.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

That this House do disagree with the Commons in their Amendment 16A, do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 16B, and do propose Amendment 16C as an amendment to Lords Amendment 16 in lieu of Commons Amendment 16A—

16A: In subsection (2)(c), at end insert “including specifying in a list such provisions of retained EU law as is intended to be revoked or reformed”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 42, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 42A.

42A: Because the Commons consider the scrutiny procedure imposed by the Lords Amendment to be inappropriate.