Draft Historical Abuse Bill (Northern Ireland)

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

Wednesday 24th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Maria Caulfield (Lewes) (Con)]

Can I just say I find it unacceptable that we are even thinking the legislation should be done by the end of the year? It should be done immediately. Given that David Sterling redrafted the legislation last week, it could have been tabled and introduced this week. It is unacceptable that that has not happened, but a commitment for that to happen the first week we return should be on the table. Significant periods between the 1920s and the 1990s were under direct rule, so while the issue is a devolved matter, does the Minister not agree that this place has a responsibility to give compensation to those victims? Does the Minister not further agree that, given that this place has previously passed all stages of Northern Ireland legislation in 24 hours, this Bill should be the top priority when we return from summer recess?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I call the Secretary of State.

[John Penrose]

I am the Minister of State.

[Hon. Members]

Promotion!

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I must make it absolutely clear that I have no crystal ball. I was merely aware of the stature of the hon. Gentleman and was mistaken. I call the Minister.

[John Penrose]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will briefly respond to my hon. Friend by saying that I think she is tempting me into what is probably a constitutional impropriety by trying to commit the incoming Government, whoever may be in it, and bind their hands. The comments made by her, the shadow Secretary of State and Members from all parts of the House will have created a helpful political fact, which is that there is clearly a great degree of cross-party consensus about the legislation—not only here, but among the parties in Northern Ireland—and a shared cross-party consensus about pace and urgency too. I am sure that message will be heard loud and clear by the business managers, whoever they may be.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

3rd reading: House of Commons & Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Tuesday 9th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Dame Eleanor Laing in the Chair]

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

We will begin with new clause 1, but before I call the hon. Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn), I will point out a few matters to hon. Members. There are several changes to the provisional selection and grouping. These are fairly minor changes, but Members will appreciate that the Bill was published very recently and that there has been quite a lot of interest in it.

New clause 10, in the name of the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), currently appears in the second group of amendments. It should have appeared in the first group of amendments with new clause 1, so I would be grateful if Members read the first group of amendments as including new clause 10, in the name of the hon. Lady. New clause 19 should not have appeared on the provisional selection of amendments at all, as new clause 19 has not been selected. Amendment 11 has a small error in it, and an amended text of amendment 11 will be issued shortly; it is not dramatic.

New Clause 1

Marriage of same-sex couples in Northern Ireland

“(1) The Secretary of State must make regulations to change the law relating to marriage in Northern Ireland to provide that marriage between same-sex couples is lawful.

(2) Regulations under this section must be in force no later than 21 October 2019, subject to subsections (3) and (4).

(3) A statutory instrument containing regulations under subsection (1)—

(a) must be laid before both Houses of Parliament;

(b) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.

(4) If a Northern Ireland Executive is formed before the regulations under this section come into force, any regulations made under this section and any extant obligations arising under subsection (1) shall cease to have effect.”—(Conor McGinn.)

This new clause would require UK secondary legislation to extend same-sex marriage to Northern Ireland unless a Northern Ireland Executive is formed by 21 October 2019.

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[The First Deputy Chairman]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

New clause 2—Pension for victims and survivors of Troubles-related incidents: debate—

“(1) A Minister of the Crown must, within the period of two sitting days beginning with the first sitting day on or after the day on which the report on progress made towards preparing legislation to implement a pension for seriously injured victims and survivors of Troubles-related incidents mentioned in section 3 is published, make arrangements for—

(a) a motion to the effect that the House of Commons has approved that report to be moved in that House by a Minister of the Crown within the period of seven Commons sitting days beginning with the day on which the relevant report mentioned in section 3 is published, and

(b) a motion for the House of Lords to take note of the report mentioned in paragraph (a) to be moved in that House by a Minister of the Crown within the period of seven Lords sitting days beginning with the day on which the relevant report mentioned in section 3 is published.

(2) In this section—

“Commons sitting day” means a day on which the House of Commons is sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House of Commons is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day);

“Lords sitting day” means a day on which the House of Lords is sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House of Lords is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day).”

This new clause is linked to amendment 1 on a report on progress made towards preparing legislation to implementing a pension for seriously injured victims and survivors of Troubles-related incidents, and provides for the report to be debated in Parliament.

New clause 4—Reproductive rights of women in Northern Ireland: debate—

“(1) A Minister of the Crown must, within the period of two sitting days beginning with the first sitting day on or after the day on which the report on progress made towards meeting international human rights obligations applicable to the United Kingdom in relation to the reproductive rights of women mentioned in section 3 is published, make arrangements for—

(a) a motion to the effect that the House of Commons has approved that report to be moved in that House by a Minister of the Crown within the period of seven Commons sitting days beginning with the day on which the relevant report mentioned in section 3 is published, and

(b) a motion for the House of Lords to take note of the report mentioned in paragraph (a) to be moved in that House by a Minister of the Crown within the period of seven Lords sitting days beginning with the day on which the relevant report mentioned in section 3 is published.

(2) In this section—

“Commons sitting day” means a day on which the House of Commons is sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House of Commons is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day);

“Lords sitting day” means a day on which the House of Lords is sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House of Lords is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day).”

This new clause is linked to amendment 2 on a report on progress made towards meeting international human rights obligations applicable to the United Kingdom in relation to the reproductive rights of women, and provides for the report to be debated in Parliament.

New clause 6—Historical institutional abuse in Northern Ireland: debate—

“(1) A Minister of the Crown must, within the period of two sitting days beginning with the first sitting day on or after the day on which the report on progress made towards implementing the recommendations made by the Report of the Inquiry into Historical Institutional Abuse in Northern Ireland between 1922 and 1995 is published, make arrangements for—

(a) a motion to the effect that the House of Commons has approved that report to be moved in that House by a Minister of the Crown within the period of seven Commons sitting days beginning with the day on which the relevant report mentioned in section 3 is published, and

(b) a motion for the House of Lords to take note of the report mentioned in paragraph (a) to be moved in that House by a Minister of the Crown within the period of seven Lords sitting days beginning with the day on which the relevant report mentioned in section 3 is published.

(2) In this section—

“Commons sitting day” means a day on which the House of Commons is sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House of Commons is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day);

“Lords sitting day” means a day on which the House of Lords is sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House of Lords is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day).”

This new clause is linked to amendment 3 on a report on progress towards implementing the recommendations made by the Hart Report of the Inquiry into Historical Institutional Abuse in Northern Ireland between 1922 and 1995, and provides for the report to be debated in Parliament.

New clause 8—Same-sex marriage in Northern Ireland: debate—

“(1) A Minister of the Crown must, within the period of two sitting days beginning with the first sitting day on or after the day on which the report on progress made towards implementing marriage for same-sex couples in Northern Ireland is published, make arrangements for—

(a) a motion to the effect that the House of Commons has approved that report to be moved in that House by a Minister of the Crown within the period of seven Commons sitting days beginning with the day on which the relevant report mentioned in section 3 is published, and

(b) a motion for the House of Lords to take note of the report mentioned in paragraph (a) to be moved in that House by a Minister of the Crown within the period of seven Lords sitting days beginning with the day on which the relevant report mentioned in section 3 is published.

(2) In this section—

“Commons sitting day” means a day on which the House of Commons is sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House of Commons is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day);

“Lords sitting day” means a day on which the House of Lords is sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House of Lords is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day).”

This new clause is linked to amendment 3 on a report on progress towards implementing the recommendations made by the Hart Report of the Inquiry into Historical Institutional Abuse in Northern Ireland between 1922 and 1995, and provides for the report to be debated in Parliament.

New clause 10—International obligations—

“(1) In accordance with the requirements of section 26 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 regarding international obligations, the Secretary of State must make regulations by statutory instrument to give effect to the recommendations of the Report of the Inquiry concerning the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland under article 8 of the Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women.

(2) Regulations under this section must come into force by 21 October 2019, subject to subsections (3) and (4).

(3) A statutory instrument containing regulations under subsection (1)—

(a) must be laid before both Houses of Parliament;

(b) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.

(4) If a Northern Ireland Executive is formed before 21 October 2019, any extant obligations arising under subsection (1) shall cease to have effect.”

Amendment 9, in clause 3, page 2, line 15, at end insert—

“(1A) The report under subsection (1) must include a review of the current legal framework on abortion in Northern Ireland with an analysis of how that framework could be amended by Parliament during the period when there is no Executive, subject to a sunset clause to respect devolution, in order to comply with the human rights obligations of the United Kingdom.”

The subsection would include placing a duty on the Secretary to State to report on the legal framework on abortion in Northern Ireland with an analysis of how that framework could be amended by Parliament during the period when there is no Executive, subject to a sunset clause to respect devolution, in order to comply with the human rights obligations of the United Kingdom.

Amendment 10, page 2, line 15, at end insert—

“(1A) Before making a report under subsection (1), the Secretary of State must publish a report on or before 4 September 2019 on progress made towards preparing legislation implementing a pension for seriously injured victims and survivors of Troubles-related incidents.”

The subsection would include placing a duty on the Secretary of State to report on the implementation of a pension for seriously injured victims and survivors of Troubles-related incidents.

Amendment 11, page 2, line 15, at end insert—

“(1A) Before making a report under subsection (1), the Secretary of State must publish a report on or before 4 September 2019 on progress made towards meeting international human rights obligations applicable to the United Kingdom in respect of Northern Ireland in relation to the reproductive rights of women.”

The subsection would include placing a duty on the Secretary of State to report on the implications of any relevant judicial decision in relation to abortion.

Amendment 12, page 2, line 15, at end insert—

“(1A) Before making a report under subsection (1), the Secretary of State must publish a report on or before 4 September 2019 on progress made towards implementing the recommendations made by the Report of the Inquiry into Historical Institutional Abuse in Northern Ireland between 1922 and 1995, including the establishment of a publicly funded compensation scheme under an HIA Redress Board, distinct from the Northern Ireland Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme 2009.”

The subsection calls for a report on implementing the Report of the Inquiry into Historical Institutional Abuse in Northern Ireland between 1922 and 1995, published in January 2017, which was chaired by Sir Anthony Hart.

Amendment 13, page 2, line 15, at end insert—

“(1A) Before making a report under subsection (1), the Secretary of State must publish a report on or before 4 September 2019 on progress made in preparing legislation to make provision for the marriage of same sex couples in Northern Ireland.”

The subsection calls for a report on preparations for same-sex marriage in Northern Ireland.

[Conor McGinn]

I rise to speak to new clause 1 in my name and the names of many right hon. and hon. Friends and Members across the Chamber. I want to speak briefly about the purpose of the new clause, the rationale for my tabling it and for wording it in the way I have and my motivation for bringing this before the Committee today.

The purpose of the new clause is straightforward. It stipulates that, if devolution is not restored to Northern Ireland in the form of a functioning Assembly and Executive, the Secretary of State would bring forward regulations in this House to introduce the legalisation of same-sex marriage in Northern Ireland.

My rationale for phrasing the new clause as I have, with the stipulations that it contains, is simple. There is an ongoing talks process at Stormont. Two and a half years since the Assembly and Executive collapsed, we are still waiting on that to come to a successful fruition. As I said last night on Second Reading, these issues are difficult and complicated, and politicians in Northern Ireland have my respect and full support in trying to resolve those; but if, in three months’ time, they—along with the two Governments—have not been able to ensure that a fully functioning Executive and Assembly are back up and running, we should legislate here for equal marriage. In the event that they are up and running before then, this provision would not be enacted. In the event that the Stormont Executive and Assembly are up and running after we enact this measure here, of course the power to legislate on marriage remains with the Stormont Executive and Assembly, and they could seek to change or overrule the regulation that we have made here.

--- Later in debate ---

The subsection would include placing a duty on the Secretary to State to report on the legal framework on abortion in Northern Ireland with an analysis of how that framework could be amended by Parliament during the period when there is no Executive, subject to a sunset clause to respect devolution, in order to comply with the human rights obligations of the United Kingdom.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

No, no—we do not clap. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) deserves to be congratulated, but not by clapping.

We now come to amendment 10 to clause 3, to be moved formally. [Interruption.]

The Question is that amendment 10 be made. As many of that opinion say “Aye”. [Interruption.] To the contrary, “No”. [Interruption.] Order. I have to be able to separate the laughter from the cries of “Aye” and “No”.

[Sir Patrick McLoughlin (Derbyshire Dales) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Did the Member who shouted initially say, “Not moved”?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I understand the point of order made by a long-serving Chief Whip, who understands these matters extremely well, but the hon. Gentleman has the right to change his mind.

[Tony Lloyd]

For clarification, Madam Deputy Speaker, the amendment is moved formally. [Interruption.]

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. No, we are having no confusion on this matter. We are starting this matter again. [Interruption.] I would appreciate just a little less noise, because we are debating serious matters here and it is not amusing.

Amendment made: 10, in page 2, line 15, at end insert—

“(1A) Before making a report under subsection (1), the Secretary of State must publish a report on or before 4 September 2019 on progress made towards preparing legislation implementing a pension for seriously injured victims and survivors of Troubles-related incidents.” —(Tony Lloyd.)

The subsection would include placing a duty on the Secretary of State to report on the implementation of a pension for seriously injured victims and survivors of Troubles-related incidents.

Amendment made: 12, in page 2, line 15, at end insert—

“(1A) Before making a report under subsection (1), the Secretary of State must publish a report on or before 4 September 2019 on progress made towards implementing the recommendations made by the Report of the Inquiry into Historical Institutional Abuse in Northern Ireland between 1922 and 1995, including the establishment of a publicly funded compensation scheme under an HIA Redress Board, distinct from the Northern Ireland Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme 2009.’—(Tony Lloyd.)

The subsection calls for a report on implementing the Report of the Inquiry into Historical Institutional Abuse in Northern Ireland between 1922 and 1995, published in January 2017, which was chaired by Sir Anthony Hart.

Amendment proposed: 15, in page 2, line 15, at end insert—

“(1A) The Secretary of State shall make a further report under subsection 1 on or before 9 October 2019 at least every fourteen calendar days thereafter until either an Executive is formed or until 18 December 2019, whichever is the sooner.’—(Mr Grieve.)

This amendment would require fortnightly reports to be made after the conference recess until an Executive was formed, or until the December recess.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Northern Ireland: Political Process

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

Monday 29th April 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gregory Campbell]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Just a few moments ago, in criticising—quite rightly, in the view of many, many people—the actions of Saoradh, the political wing of murdering terrorists, the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Sweeney) made an oblique comparison between that group of murdering terrorists and others who walk on the streets such as the Orange Order and the Apprentice Boys. That should not go unanswered, and it should be totally and utterly condemned by all right-thinking people.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

The hon. Gentleman makes his point. I understand why he wishes to raise a point of order on the matter, but he will appreciate that it is not the responsibility of the Chair. I am quite sure that any hon. Member in this House, in anything they have said, will have meant well.

[Mr Sweeney]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you for your forbearance.

For the record, it was not my intention in making that statement to conflate the motives of those organisations. I was merely reflecting my constituents’ concerns, as brought to me, about the intimidation, as they see it, that has taken place in the city of Glasgow. I was merely reflecting that. I was not conflating violent acts with anything else.

I abhor the actions of Saoradh, which are a different order of violence from anything that has taken place involving any other organisation in recent times. It was not my intention to cause that degree of offence. If it has been received in that way, I beg the forbearance of the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) as it was not my intention.

It is important that both sides understand each other if we want to reach a compromise—that was my intention in raising those concerns. I have had dialogue with both sides on this issue.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Thank you. The hon. Gentleman has been most gracious in his response.

[Jim Shannon]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

We will leave it at that.

Bill Presented

European Union (Citizens’ Rights) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Frank Field presented a Bill to safeguard rights of European Union citizens in the United Kingdom after exit day; to make provision for arrangements to be made with other European Economic Area countries and Switzerland to maintain the rights of British citizens in those countries after exit day; and for connected purposes.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 383).

[Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Ind)]

If tomorrow is anything like today, I will get it all through.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

You may say that. I cannot possibly comment.

Point of Order

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

Monday 11th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Karen Bradley)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. In response to an oral question on 6 March, I made inaccurate comments regarding the actions of soldiers during the troubles. It is right that I address these remarks in the House today and correct the record.

What I said was wrong. It was deeply insensitive to the families who lost loved ones in incidents involving the security forces. I have apologised unreservedly for the offence and hurt that my words caused. Today, I repeat that apology both to the families and to Members of this House. The language that I used was wrong.

Last week, I met a number of those families. I am grateful to each of them for giving me the opportunity to apologise in person. Families from throughout Northern Ireland and from all parts of the community who suffered as a result of the troubles rightly want to see justice properly delivered. Where there is any evidence of wrongdoing, this should be pursued without fear or favour, whoever the perpetrators might be.

My position and the position of the Government is clear: we believe fundamentally in the rule of law. That is the principle that underpins our approach to dealing with legacy issues and it is one from which I will not depart. That is why I launched the public consultation on addressing the legacy of the troubles. We received over 17,000 responses to that legacy consultation and I am grateful to all who took the time to respond. We are rightly taking the appropriate time to consider all responses, some containing harrowing and deeply personal stories. I will set out the next steps shortly.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I thank the right hon. Lady for her point of order.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I regret that the Secretary of State has not made a statement to the House. I hope that in the coming days she will consider whether it would be right and proper to come before the House to make a full statement. One of the prime necessities for anybody in her role is that they have the confidence not just of the political parties and broader civil society in Northern Ireland, but of the victims’ families, because of the pain they have gone through for so many years.

It is now five years since the Stormont House agreement, which said that there would be a justice process for those families. Time has gone by, but it has still not been delivered to them and the Secretary of State must know that. She must also know that she has lost the confidence of at least some of the political parties and some of those very families. That makes her own position very difficult. She has to think about what that means not simply in terms of her credibility, but her capacity to do the job. I hope she is reflecting on her position and I hope she will come back to the House to make a fuller statement.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point of order. The right hon. Lady and the hon. Gentleman, and indeed the whole House, know that that is not a point of order for the Chair and therefore I will give no answer to the point, but I think the whole House is pleased that the Secretary of State and the shadow Secretary of State have had an opportunity, however briefly, to air this important matter in the Chamber this evening. I thank them both for so doing.

Northern Ireland (Regional Rates and Energy) (No. 2) Bill

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 6th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson]

I agree with the hon. Lady. One of the reasons why we need scrutiny of the legislation, even after it has gone through, is so that we have a chance to revise it if we see that the figures are wrong. Since people have bought the boilers and had the infrastructure installed, would it be better to find a level of subsidy that enables people to continue to use them rather than just buying them out? The fact that we have a buy-out clause in the Bill shows that the Government and Department know that there will be hardship for people, although I suspect that the terms of the buy-out will be so draconian that it will not be worthwhile people doing that.

We will be supporting the legislation, albeit reluctantly, but on the basis that there will be an opportunity for the good questions that Members across the House have asked today to be looked at in more detail.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Before I call the next hon. Gentleman to speak, I have to announce the result of today’s six deferred Divisions on questions relating to regulations on exiting the European Union. In respect of the question relating to financial services and markets, the Ayes were 303 and the Noes were 250, so the Ayes have it. In respect of the question relating to electricity, the Ayes were 302 and the Noes were 44, so the Ayes have it. In respect of the question relating to gas, the Ayes were 300 and the Noes were 44, so the Ayes have it. In respect of the question relating to food, the Ayes were 303 and the Noes were 44, so the Ayes have it. In respect of the question relating to electronic communications, the Ayes were 301 and the Noes were 257, so the Ayes have it. And, in respect of the question relating to road traffic, the Ayes were 301 and the Noes were 251, so the Ayes have it.

We will recommence the Second Reading debate with Mr Vernon Coaker.

[The Division list is published at the end of today’s debates.]

Northern Ireland Budget (Anticipation and Adjustments) (No. 2) Bill

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Tuesday 5th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I must inform the Committee that the Chairman of Ways and Means has selected amendment 2, tabled by the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy). He has not selected the new clause tabled by the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands), and he has not selected amendment 1, tabled by the hon. Member for Walthamstow. It will, however, be in order on this occasion to refer to the subject matter of new clause 1 and amendment 1, which have not been selected.

Clause 1

Issue of sum out of the Consolidated Fund for the year ending 31 March 2019 and appropriation of that sum

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The First Deputy Chairman]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Clauses 2 to 9 stand part.

Amendment 2, in schedule 2, page 13, line 7, after ‘offences’ insert—

‘except where such future prosecutions involve alleged offences under sections 58 and 59 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861’.

Schedules 1 to 4 be schedules to the Bill.

[Karen Bradley]

It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship in this Committee, Dame Eleanor. As these matters were debated at length on Second Reading, I do not propose to detain the Committee any further.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 24th October 2018 Commons Chamber

[Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. During Prime Minister’s questions, the Prime Minister asserted that the respected Oxford economist and professor, Simon Wren-Lewis, said, in reference to Labour’s manifesto,

“the numbers did not add up”.

However, Professor Wren-Lewis disputes the accuracy of those remarks. He issued the following comments this afternoon, and I would like to be clear that these are the professor’s words, not mine:

“Apparently the Prime Minister quoted me saying about Labour’s 2017 manifesto ‘the numbers did not add up’ In fact I said ‘Let us suppose the IFS was correct’ and examined consequences. I have never taken a view on whether they did/didn’t add up. If that is what she said, she”—

he goes on to use a word that I am unable to use, regarding the incongruous relationship between the Prime Minister’s comments and the truth. I just repeat that those are the professor’s words, not mine.

Would it be appropriate for the Prime Minister to come back to this House to correct the record and apologise to the renowned professor in question? May I seek your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker, on the best course of action?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. As he knows, and as Mr Speaker always says when dealing with such points of order, what Ministers say at the Dispatch Box is not a matter for the Chair. I am quite sure that whatever the Prime Minister said today, she said in good faith, but the hon. Gentleman wishes to bring another version of that to the attention of the House, the Prime Minister and her Ministers. By raising this point of order, he has succeeded in doing that. As for when the Prime Minister will come back to the House, I am quite sure that, in the normal course of events, she will be back here soon—certainly by next Wednesday, when of course the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues will have the opportunity to ask her about this directly, and I am sure that he will take that opportunity.

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. During Prime Minister’s questions today, the Leader of the Opposition asserted that the number of those on zero-hours contracts was going up. In actual fact, the figure is going down. Is there an opportunity to draw that fact to the attention of the House?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

First of all, that was not further to the point of order. Just as the Chair has no responsibility or control over what Ministers say in the House, so they have no responsibility or control over what the Leader of the Opposition says in the House. I say the same to the hon. Gentleman as I said earlier: facts are being disputed, and I am quite sure that he will question the Leader of the Opposition closely the next time he has the opportunity to do so.

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I, too, raise the point that the Leader of the Opposition claimed today that record numbers of people were on zero-hours contracts. That is false according to the House of Commons Library, which makes it very clear that the number has dropped from 903,000 to 780,000. How does one clarify the matter, in order to ensure that the Library remains a trusted source of data?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

The hon. Lady makes a very important point, because we all rely on the Library to give us balanced—

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

Jeremy doesn’t.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Do not interrupt me. We rely on the Library to give us balanced and entirely impartial information, but once again, once a Member of this House has information in his or her hand, the way that they present it, and the arguments that they make with it, is a matter for them. The hon. Lady asked how she can draw this matter to the attention of the world in general; she has just done so most effectively.

Would anyone else like to continue Prime Minister’s questions? We have a very important Bill in front of us, and I do not wish to take any further time out of the limited amount left for it.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

3rd reading: House of Commons & Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Wednesday 24th October 2018 Commons Chamber

[Nigel Mills]

I beg to move amendment 15, page 1, line 16, at end insert—

‘(4A) If the period mentioned in section 16(A)(3) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, as modified by subsection (1), ends without the Ministerial offices having been filled section 32 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 has effect as if for subsection (3) there were substituted—

(3) The Secretary of State shall within 7 calendar days of the end of the period mentioned in in section 16(A)(3) set a date for the poll for the election of the next Northern Ireland Assembly. The date set shall be no later than 3 calendar months after the end of the period mentioned in section 16(A)(3).’

This amendment would require elections in Northern Ireland to be called if Ministerial offices are not filled by 26 March 2019.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Clause stand part.

Amendment 1, in clause 2, page 2, line 20, leave out paragraph (b).

This amendment would prevent the Secretary of State from extending the deadline for appointment of Northern Ireland Ministers without the approval of Parliament.

Clause 2 stand part.

Amendment 22, in clause 3, page 3, line 2, at end insert—

‘(1A) In the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, senior officers of Northern Ireland departments, giving due regard to advice from the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Victims and Survivors, shall prepare a scheme to provide a pension to those who are regarded as seriously-injured arising from an incident associated from the conflict in Northern Ireland.’

This amendment would in the absence of Ministers create a duty for a scheme to be created to provide financial support for those people who have suffered life-limiting injuries and impairment due to incidents related to the Northern Ireland conflict.

Amendment 21, page 3, line 5, at end insert

‘and must also make a formal statement before each House of Parliament following the publication of such guidance.’

This amendment would require the Secretary of State to make a statement to Parliament on any guidance issued to Northern Ireland Departments on the exercise of their functions in the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers.

Amendment 2, page 3, line 7, at end insert—

‘(3A) The guidance must direct departments to take action on the following areas—

(a) implementing the recommendations of the Historical Institutional Abuse Inquiry (the Hart Report),

(b) instigating any research, consultations or planning required for post-Brexit policy,

(c) designing and implementing devolved post-Brexit functions in relation to Northern Ireland fishing and agriculture that would normally fall to the Northern Ireland Executive,

(d) taking decisions on infrastructure planning and projects that will benefit Northern Ireland.’

This amendment highlights four key areas where guidance must be issued.

Amendment 17, page 3, line 7, at end insert

‘which must include guidance to meet the requirements of section (Guidance on exercise of departmental functions: credit unions).’

This amendment is linked to NC4 with the intention of requiring Northern Ireland Departments, in the continued absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, to promote credit unions in Northern Ireland.

Amendment 18, page 3, line 7, at end insert

‘which must include guidance to meet the requirements of section (Guidance on exercise of departmental functions: energy co-operatives).’

This amendment is linked to NC5 with the intention of requiring Northern Ireland Departments, in the continued absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, to promote energy co-operatives in Northern Ireland.

Amendment 19, page 3, line 7, at end insert

‘which must include guidance to meet the requirements of section (Guidance on exercise of departmental functions: housing co-operatives).’

This amendment is linked to NC6 with the intention of requiring the Northern Ireland Department for Communities, in the continued absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, to promote housing co-operatives in Northern Ireland.

Amendment 3, page 3, line 34, after ‘Assembly’ insert ‘and Members of Parliament’.

This amendment would require the Secretary of State to have regard to representations from MPs as well as MLAs before publishing guidance.

Amendment 4, page 3, line 34, at end insert—

‘(9A) If the Secretary of State wishes to revise or amend the guidance, they must write to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee at least 30 sitting days before the revised guidance is issued to seek its views on the proposed changes.’

This amendment would require the Secretary of State to consult the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee before changing the guidance.

Amendment 5, page 3, line 38, at end insert—

‘“Northern Ireland Affairs Committee” means the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons and—

(a) if the name of that Committee is changed, is to be treated as a reference to that Committee by its new name, and

(b) if the functions of that Committee (or substantially corresponding functions) become functions of a different Committee of the House of Commons, is to be treated as a reference to the Committee by which those functions are exercisable.’

This amendment defines the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons for the purpose of Clause 3.

Clause 3 stand part.

Government amendment 23.

Amendment 6, in clause 4, page 4, line 26, at end insert

‘, publish the advice received and write to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee to notify the Committee of the appointment decision prior to the appointment being made.’

This amendment requires the relevant Minister of the Crown to notify the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons before exercising an appointment function in relation to a specified office.

Amendment 16, page 4, line 26, at end insert—

‘(5A) Before exercising an appointment function in reliance on subsection (1) in relation to a role with an annual salary of £100,000 or more the relevant Minister of the Crown must refer their recommendation for the appointment to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons for a pre-appointment scrutiny hearing.

(5B) The Minister of the Crown may not proceed with the appointment referred to in subsection (5A) for a period of 30 calendar days from the date of referral to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons.

(5C) Any reference in this Act to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons—

(a) if the name of that Committee is changed, is to be treated as a reference to that Committee by its new name, and

(b) if the functions of that Committee (or substantially corresponding functions) become functions of a different Committee of the House of Commons, is to be treated as a reference to the Committee by which those functions are exercisable.

(5D) Any question arising under sub-paragraph (5C) is to be determined by the Speaker of the House of Commons.’

This amendment would require the more highly-paid public appointments to be subject to scrutiny by the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee of the House of Commons.

Clause 4 stand part.

Amendment 7, in clause 5, page 4, line 36, at end insert

‘, publish the advice received and write to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee to notify the Committee of the appointment decision prior to the appointment being made.’

This amendment requires the relevant Minister of the Crown to notify the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons before exercising an appointment function which normally require consultation with, or the consent of, Northern Ireland Ministers.

Clause 5 stand part.

Amendment 8, in clause 6, page 5, line 7, at end insert

‘, publish the advice received and write to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee to notify the Committee of the appointment decision prior to the appointment being made.’

This amendment requires the Secretary of State to notify the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons before exercising an appointment function which is normally exercisable by Northern Ireland Minsters acting jointly with the Secretary of State.

Clause 6 stand part.

Amendment 9, in clause 7, page 5, line 34, at end insert—

‘“Northern Ireland Affairs Committee” means the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons and—

(a) if the name of that Committee is changed, is to be treated as a reference to that Committee by its new name, and

(b) if the functions of that Committee (or substantially corresponding functions) become functions of a different Committee of the House of Commons, is to be treated as a reference to the Committee by which those functions are exercisable.’

This amendment defines the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons for the purposes of Clauses 4 to 6.

Government amendment 24.

Clauses 7 to 10 stand part.

New clause 4—Guidance on exercise of departmental functions: credit unions—

‘(1) The guidance published under section 3(2) must include guidance on credit unions.

(2) Guidance under this section includes, but is not limited to, guidance to —

(a) senior officers of the Department for Communities in the exercise of the functions in relation to—

(i) promoting and protecting the interests of children, older people, people with disabilities, and other socially excluded groups, and

(ii) providing emergency financial assistance; and

(b) senior officers of the Department of the Economy in the exercise of the functions in relation to—

(i) business regulation including consumer affairs services,

(ii) mutuals policy, legislation and operations, and

(iii) the social economy.

(3) Guidance under this section must include the promotion of credit unions in Northern Ireland to combat organised crime, to reduce financial exclusion, to assist the social inclusion of marginalised groups and to promote financial well-being in all parts of Northern Ireland.’

The intention of this new clause is to require Northern Ireland Departments, in the continued absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, to promote credit unions in Northern Ireland.

New clause 5—Guidance on exercise of departmental functions: energy co-operatives—

‘(1) The guidance published under section 3(2) must include guidance on energy co-operatives.

(2) Guidance under this section includes, but is not limited to, guidance to —

(a) senior officers of the Department of the Economy in the exercise of their functions in relation to—

(i) energy policy and legislation;

(ii) sustainable energy, including energy efficiency measures;

(iii) assistance to the gas and electricity industries;

(iv) Renewable Heat Incentive Scheme and associated costs;

(v) the social economy; and

(vi) making certain payments to the Department of Business, Energy and Industry Strategy; and

(b) senior officers of the Department for Infrastructure in the exercise of their functions in relation to energy matters.

(3) Guidance under this section must include the promotion of energy co-operatives in Northern Ireland to combat fuel poverty and to encourage the safe, sustainable, affordable and efficient production and consumption of energy in all parts of Northern Ireland.’

The intention of this new clause is to require Northern Ireland Departments, in the continued absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, to promote energy co-operatives in Northern Ireland.

New clause 6—Guidance on exercise of departmental functions: housing co-operatives—

‘(1) The guidance published under section 3(2) must include guidance on housing co-operatives.

(2) Guidance under this section includes, but is not limited to, guidance to senior officers of the Department for Communities in the exercise of their functions in relation to—

(a) loans for certain home improvement loans;

(b) housing led regeneration;

(c) regulation of the NI Housing Association sector;

(d) urban regeneration including services such as property maintenance and events;

(e) community and voluntary sector;

(f) grants to district councils in support of local services and transferred functions;

(g) built heritage; and

(h) grants and grants-in-aid.

(3) Guidance under this section must include the promotion of housing co-operatives in Northern Ireland to combat poverty, family breakdown and social exclusion and to encourage the provision safe, sustainable, affordable and energy-efficient homes in all parts of Northern Ireland.’

The intention of this new clause is to require the Northern Ireland Department for Communities, in the continued absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, to promote housing co-operatives in Northern Ireland.

New clause 7—Equal rights for people of Northern Ireland (No. 2)—

‘(1) In the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers to address the matters identified by recent, current and future court proceedings in relation to the human rights of the people of Northern Ireland, the Secretary of State must issue guidance to senior officers of all Northern Ireland departments which will specify how to exercise their functions in relation to—

(a) the incompatibility of the human rights of the people of Northern Ireland with the continued enforcement of sections 58 and 59 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 with the Human Rights Act 1998, and

(b) the incompatibility of the human rights of the people of Northern Ireland with the continued enforcement of section 13(e) of the Matrimonial Causes (Northern Ireland) Order 1978

where they pertain to the provision and management of public services in Northern Ireland.

(2) The Secretary of State shall report guidance under this section on a quarterly basis to the House of Commons and set out her plans to address the impact of the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers on human rights obligations within three months of the day on which this Act is passed.’

This new clause would increase accountability of the Secretary of State and senior officers of Northern Ireland departments for their role in ensuring human rights compliance in Northern Ireland, in the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, by requiring them to address incompatibilities between legislation applied in Northern Ireland and human rights obligations.

[Nigel Mills]

May I first apologise for being a little late for the wind-up speeches on Second Reading? I was sorry to miss the speech by the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound), the shadow Minister, as his speeches are usually entertaining and informative.

Amendments 15 and 16 are efforts to probe the Government on the future direction of policy in certain areas and perhaps to improve the Bill, but I will not seek to press them to Divisions. Amendment 15 is an attempt to discover the Government’s plan if—heaven forbid—we reach the end of the period for the formation of the Executive and we still do not have one. Effectively, what would happen in law without any further clarification is that we would default back to the present situation—the Secretary of State would have a duty to consider setting an election date. The present interpretation seems to be that she has no duty to call an election for any particular date. The House of Commons and the people of Northern Ireland have been very patient for the past 650 days—that was the count we heard earlier—in not pressing the Government to clarify the meaning of the words on considering the date for an election in the legislation of a decade ago.

We may fairly say that if we manage to get to late August 2019—I cannot calculate the number of days, but I suspect it will be well over 800 days since an election by that point—without a Government being formed, the only solution might well be to have another election and see whether the people of Northern Ireland wished to express a different view from the one they expressed 650 days ago. If we get to that stage, I would argue that an election would be unavoidable unless we really believed that another few days would tip a deal over the line.

I also venture to suggest gently that having clarity in the law about the consequences for the parties if they cannot reach a deal by that point may be of some assistance in the negotiations. It is probably fair to say that the Northern Irish parties are not great respecters of deadlines. Indeed, deadlines in this process seem to come and go without provoking much action. If a deadline were set in law, it would be clear throughout the discussions that an election would be called if the parties could not reach an agreement by the end date of late March, or late August or somewhere in between that the Secretary of State sets.

Actually, whether to call an election would not be a matter for the Secretary of State’s discretion: it would be a matter of law that the election had to be called unless she thought that she could get a new piece of legislation through Parliament to delay or remove that obligation. If a deal were about to be reached and some legislation here were needed to bring it about, I do not think that we would have any problem in agreeing to it. We would all be grateful to do anything we could to bring the Executive back. But a line would be drawn in the sand to make it clear that if the parties do not agree by a certain date, the Secretary of State has no option but to call an election to ask the people their opinion on resolving the situation.

I ask the Government to consider at least clarifying the consequences of the period for Executive formation lapsing without success and the Government’s policy in that regard. Setting out clearly in a way that will not be ignored this time that an election would have to follow might offer some assistance in the negotiations.

My other proposed amendment, amendment 16, concerns the appointment of individuals to certain key bodies in Northern Ireland. Ideally, that would be a decision for the Northern Ireland Executive and the Assembly and there would be some cross-community involvement. It would be a joint decision, effectively. The Bill quite rightly takes the power to make those appointments, but effectively leaves the decision to the Secretary of State without the need for any real consultation with Parliament or the public on those decisions. I accept that we do not need to have that level of parliamentary involvement for every appointment that might be needed, but what I am trying to do through the amendment is ask whether for the most senior and important posts we could in some way have some parliamentary scrutiny of the individual whose appointment is recommended. This is not a novel process. Many Departments allow Select Committees to hold scrutiny hearings for proposed senior appointments, so it would merely replicate that process.

Attempting to get the amendment in order, I suggested that the definition of seniority could come with a salary of £100,000, but I would not be particularly committed to how we define the cut-off. However, if we were to have this process for sensitive appointments, I think that that level of salary would catch a new Chief Constable, if for some reason one was needed, or perhaps the chair of the Office of the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland.

For those very sensitive and senior posts for which there is cross-party concern about the individual who is appointed, having a parliamentary scrutiny process in which questions could be asked of the individual to discuss any past roles they have had or comments they have made and to seek their views on how they would carry out their burdensome responsibilities would give both Parliament and the people of Northern Ireland some comfort that the right person had been found and that they would discharge those responsibilities in a responsible manner.

Even if the Secretary of State is unwilling to accept what I have proposed, I urge her to give serious consideration to whether it would help those individuals to have the full confidence of Parliament and the trust of the public in discharging their roles if she allowed some public scrutiny and accountability in the process of appointing them.

--- Later in debate ---

Clauses 8 to 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I call Stella Creasy to move new clause 7 formally.

[Stella Creasy]

I move new clause 7 formally. We love whom we love. We all want control over our bodies. Let us choose to give each other—

[The First Deputy Chairman]

We have done that bit.

New Clause 7

Equal rights for people of Northern Ireland (No. 2)

‘(1) In the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers to address the matters identified by recent, current and future court proceedings in relation to the human rights of the people of Northern Ireland, the Secretary of State must issue guidance to senior officers of all Northern Ireland departments which will specify how to exercise their functions in relation to—

(a) the incompatibility of the human rights of the people of Northern Ireland with the continued enforcement of sections 58 and 59 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 with the Human Rights Act 1998, and

(b) the incompatibility of the human rights of the people of Northern Ireland with the continued enforcement of section 13(e) of the Matrimonial Causes (Northern Ireland) Order 1978

where they pertain to the provision and management of public services in Northern Ireland.

(2) The Secretary of State shall report guidance under this section on a quarterly basis to the House of Commons and set out her plans to address the impact of the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers on human rights obligations within three months of the day on which this Act is passed.”—(Stella Creasy.)

This new clause would increase accountability of the Secretary of State and senior officers of Northern Ireland departments for their role in ensuring human rights compliance in Northern Ireland, in the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, by requiring them to address incompatibilities between legislation applied in Northern Ireland and human rights obligations.

Brought up,

Question put, That the clause be added to the Bill.

Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons & 3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Monday 13th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Owen Smith]

I will give way to my hon. Friend and then I will respond to the hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison).

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman has to do one and then the other.

[Owen Smith]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker; I stand corrected.

In no way, shape or form should we damage trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland through Northern Ireland. Nor should we damage trade across the border. Both would damage the Northern Irish economy. At present, we have no clarity from the Government about how they are going to square that circle. It is for the Government to tell the country and the people of Northern Ireland how they will fix the problem that they have created.

Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointments and Regional Rates) Bill

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 24th April 2017 Commons Chamber

[Ian Paisley]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The shadow Secretary of State indicated in his speech that he was going to list a number of grievances and a number of issues in relation to legacy. Can you confirm for us what time we have left for this debate? The shadow Secretary believed he was running out of time, but he has sufficient time to make those lists available to the House.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point of order. I can answer part of it. I would expect the Second Reading debate to last until 8.16 pm, so there is plenty of time. As to the content of the valedictory speech made by the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) from the Dispatch Box, that is not a matter for me but entirely a matter for the hon. Gentleman. I am sure that if he has something further to add to what he has already said, he will find an opportunity in the next three hours to say it. Later today, after Second Reading, we will hopefully have the Third Reading debate, when I would expect to hear more speeches from both sides of the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. We have plenty of time for the debate, but if hon. Members take much more than about 15 minutes each we will run out of time. I have a theory, merely put together after spending many hours, days and weeks in the Chair observing the House, that most things that have to be said can usually be said in 15 minutes. I make no criticism of anyone who has taken longer; I merely make a plea that that is a reasonable amount of time to take. I call Sir Jeffrey Donaldson.