Professional Qualifications Bill [Lords]

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

Report stage
Monday 14th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

New clause 2—Authority by whom regulations may be made (No. 2)—

“(1) In this Act ‘appropriate national authority’ means as follows.

(2) Where the regulations—

(a) contain provision relating to England only,

(b) apply to the United Kingdom as a whole, or

(c) contain provision which is not within the legislative competence of Senedd Cymru, the Scottish Parliament or the Northern Ireland Assembly,

the Secretary of State or the Lord Chancellor is the appropriate national authority.

(3) The Welsh Ministers are the appropriate national authority in relation to regulations under this Act which contain only provision which would be within the legislative competence of Senedd Cymru if contained in an Act of the Senedd (ignoring any requirement for the consent of a Minister of the Crown).

(4) The Scottish Ministers are the appropriate national authority in relation to regulations under this Act which contain only provision which would be within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament if contained in an Act of that Parliament.

(5) A Northern Ireland department is the appropriate national authority in relation to regulations under this Act which contain only provision which, if contained in an Act of the Northern Ireland Assembly—

(a) would be within the legislative competence of the Assembly, and

(b) would not require the consent of the Secretary of State.

(6) The consent of a Minister of the Crown is required before any provision is made by the Welsh Ministers in regulations under this Act so far as that provision, if contained in an Act of Senedd Cymru, would require the consent of a Minister of the Crown.

(7) In this section ‘Minister of the Crown’ has the same meaning as in the Ministers of the Crown Act 1975.”

This new clause is intended to replace the current Clause 16. It would mean that the Secretary of State would only make regulations under this Act if they relate to England or the whole of the UK, or are outside the legislative competencies of the Devolved Administrations.

New clause 3—List of regulators and regulated professions—

“(1) The Secretary of State must publish a list of all regulators of regulated professions and the associated professions.

(2) The list must be updated on a regular basis.”

New clause 4—Guidance and assistance concerning mutual recognition—

“Upon the request of a regulator, the Secretary of State must provide guidance and all reasonable assistance on how to make the most of the provisions in the EU-UK Trade and Co-operation Agreement.”

New clause 5—Consent of the devolved authorities—

“(1) Before making regulations under this Act, the Secretary of State or the Lord Chancellor must obtain the consent of—

(a) the Senedd, to the extent that the regulations contain provision which could also be made by the Welsh Ministers by virtue of section 16(2) (ignoring any requirement for the consent of a Minister of the Crown under section 16(5));

(b) the Scottish Parliament, to the extent that the regulations contain provision which could also be made by the Scottish Ministers by virtue of section 16(3);

(c) the Northern Ireland executive, to the extent that the regulations contain provision which could also be made by a Northern Ireland department by virtue of section 16(4).”

Amendment 2, in clause 7, page 5, line 16, at end insert—

“(1A) Before making the arrangements, the Secretary of State must consult the devolved authorities on the functions and operations of the assistance centre.”

This amendment would require the Secretary of State to undertake consultation with the Devolved Authorities on the functions and operations of the Assistance Centre before it comes into being.

Amendment 3, page 5, line 16, at end insert—

“(1A) Before making the arrangements, the Secretary of State must ensure there are representatives from each of the devolved nations on the board of the assistance centre.”

This amendment would require the Secretary of State to ensure there are representatives for each of the devolved nations on the board of the Assistance Centre.

Amendment 4, page 11, line 28, leave out clause 16.

Government amendment 1.

[Paul Scully]

I am today proposing two amendments in relation to the devolved Administrations. New clause 1 would place a duty on the Secretary of State or Lord Chancellor to consult the devolved Administrations before making regulations under the Bill that contain provisions that could be made under the Bill by the devolved authorities themselves. The new clause would also require the Government to publish a report on the consultation. Amendment 1 seeks to amend the Government of Wales Act 2006 so that a Minister of the Crown’s consent is not needed for Senedd Cymru to remove the Secretary of State’s and the Lord Chancellor’s ability to make regulations under the Bill that are within the Senedd’s legislative competence.

I know that hon. Members across the House have shown strong interest in the issue of concurrent powers and devolved competence. To underline the Government’s commitment to a collaborative approach on this issue, I am introducing into the Bill, through the new clause, a new duty to consult devolved Administrations. The duty includes a requirement to publish a report in advance of any regulations being made by the UK Government that would be within devolved legislative competence. That report should set out the consultation process, and whether and how the representations made by the devolved Administrations during the consultation have been taken into account.

My officials and I have engaged extensively with the devolved Administrations during the passage of the Bill and, although we strained every sinew to reach agreement on securing legislative consent, it is a great regret that, unfortunately, we have exhausted all available avenues. Lord Grimstone and I have held eight meetings with our devolved Administrations’ ministerial counterparts. Baroness Bloomfield and Lord Grimstone have held nine industry roundtables, including two specifically for devolved regulators. There have also been weekly official-level meetings during the Bill’s passage and numerous exchanges of letters.

The amendments were originally offered to the devolved Administrations in December 2021, in exchange for support for legislative consent motions from their respective legislatures, but that offer was rejected. But the UK Government are committed to delivering effective policies that work for the whole of the UK, so, to underline that commitment, I am now introducing those amendments without any conditions attached. I strongly believe that, if both Government amendments are accepted, the Bill represents the best outcome for both the UK Government and the devolved Administrations, without impinging on the UK’s ability to act where necessary.

The regulation of professions often falls within devolved legislative competence. For that reason, the Bill gives powers to both UK Government Ministers and devolved Administration Ministers. Some of the powers may be exercised concurrently to allow UK Government Ministers to make UK-wide regulations where appropriate. The most likely use of concurrent powers would be to implement international agreements on professional qualifications that are negotiated on a UK-wide basis. It is vital that the UK Government are able to implement such agreements across the UK in a timely and consistent manner, as failure to do so could jeopardise the UK Government’s credibility and ability to secure ambitious provisions to support UK services exports with global trade partners.

Amendment 1 would allow for an Act of the Senedd to remove UK Ministers’ ability to use powers in the Bill to make regulations that would be within Welsh devolved legislative competence, without the need to first obtain the consent of a Minister of the Crown. The Welsh Government would still be required to consult the UK Government on the removal of powers. That was a key ask from the Welsh Government. It is in line with similar approaches taken by the Government on the Environment Act 2021, the Fisheries Act 2020 and the Agriculture Act 2020.

In introducing those amendments, I hope that Members can see the UK Government’s determination to work collaboratively and transparently with all devolved Administrations and devolved regulators on the provisions of the Bill and on wider regulated professions policy.

Russian Oil Import Ban

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

We are absolutely engaged with that. As someone who is very interested in the 1970s, my hon. Friend will remember that the oil price quadrupled in three months. We are facing a difficult time. The Department is fully aware of the urgency of the problem, but he will appreciate that a lot of the investment that we needed to make simply was not made. We did not make enough commitment to nuclear—that was a historical mistake of previous Governments—but we are focusing on dealing with the problem in the here and now, and that is why my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and I are coming up with a plan in the next few days to track—[Interruption.] I find it extraordinary that the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), who was responsible for energy policy in the last Labour Government, is smirking from a sedentary position, when he comprehensively failed the nuclear sector, completely failed on energy supply and completely failed on energy resilience. We are still trying to clean up his mess. I say to my hon. Friend that we are working on these plans.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

We will have no more interventions from a so-called sedentary position.

[Darren Jones (Bristol North West) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement. He will know that many local authorities, NHS trusts and other public bodies are locked into gas supply contracts with Gazprom. To get out of them, the Government need to bring forward legislation to amend the public procurement rules. Will he do so?

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[Caroline Lucas]

“No new licences” is what I said.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I think I said quite clearly no more shouting from people who are sitting down.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

I commend my right hon. Friend’s statement and pay tribute to him and his predecessors for the diversification they have made to the supply, security and sources of the energy mix over recent years, despite the lack of investment in nuclear during the 2000s leading up to 2010. Does he agree that oil will remain a key source of energy for some time to come as we are transitioning? What consideration has he therefore given to bringing about influence on OPEC nations to produce more oil so that the global supply can be better managed?

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[Kwasi Kwarteng]

I recognise the hon. Lady’s commitment to tidal stream, and she will be good enough to notice that this is the first time that any British Government have committed to supporting any marine energy renewable project. There is always the clamour for more. We should do more, and we could do things more quickly, and I am happy to work with her and other Members across the House to see how best we can do that.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his thorough answers to a great many questions on this important subject.

Economic Crime (Transparency and Enforcement) Bill

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 7th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Dame Margaret Hodge]

Cryptocurrency has become the new way in which money is laundered. Corrupt and stolen money ends up in the pockets of one individual, and then gets back into the system for them to spend it elsewhere. I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman: it is important that we get our heads around cryptocurrency and that we legislate appropriately to tackle it.

The other way of looking at this issue, and the reason why we have tabled the new clause, is that our law enforcement bodies, while they are not as good as the Americans’, bring resources back to the UK through fines. Between 2016 and 2021, the law enforcement bodies brought £3.9 billion back into the UK coffers. If that money had been reinvested, which is one of the ideas for funding the enforcement agencies, it could have brought an extra three quarters of a billion pounds to be spent on enforcement by all those agencies. That is a lot of money, and it would have been effective; it would have had a snowball effect of increasing our budget.

New clause 2 is there to ensure that we get the enforcement right—that we have not only the powers but the resources we need to make sense of and put into effect the important legislation we are passing today. I hope it will have support right across the Committee; it certainly has support among Back Benchers, and I would love it if the Government accepted it and it became part of the Bill.

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

We have a great many amendments to consider this evening, and it would not be right if the people who tabled those amendments did not have the chance to speak to them so that the Committee can be helped to make its decisions on them, so I must appeal for shorter speeches now. I am not complaining, because so far we have had substantial speeches about substantial amendments, but will Members who are supporting amendments rather than speaking to their own amendments please consider making shorter speeches?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

It is a real pleasure to speak after the right hon. Member for Barking (Dame Margaret Hodge). We have worked together on so much, and we have worked on this legislation for a long time.

I will talk about new clause 2 when I come to my comments on whistleblowers, but the main thing I want to talk about is amendment 64. Many hon. Members have spoken about the danger of asset flight. In reality, we know it is happening already; people are not going to wait for this legislation to come into effect to try to hide their money. Whether the transition period is 18 months, six months or 28 days does not really matter, because the individuals in question can move their money around so quickly that much of it will have happened already.

I have supported amendment 16 in the name of the official Opposition, but I would like to think that my manuscript amendment 64, which I am very grateful to Mr Speaker and the Deputy Speakers for selecting, might be more effective. There are some other important amendments that have been tabled, such as new clauses 28 and 29, on freezing orders, but the difficulty with those new clause, as I said in my earlier intervention, is that we cannot freeze something that we do not know exists. That is very difficult to do. We need to look behind the curtain at who owns the assets. That is obviously what this Bill does; it is primarily about transparency and being able to see who owns what.

I am grateful for the support of many people on manuscript amendment 64, including my hon. Friend—he should be right honourable—the Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose), the Government’s anti-corruption champion. We have worked closely on this, and as soon as we looked at the Bill we thought, “There’s something missing here. Clearly, these people are going to move this money around very quickly to make sure it’s not touched.”

I think this amendment probably does something, although I am not a lawyer—I looked at this over the weekend and I did not have any legal input, so I cannot say it is totally fit for purpose and I am interested to hear what the Minister has to say about it. He has engaged on this issue all the way through and been willing to discuss with me, as we did yesterday, what we can do to close this potential loophole. The amendment would simply require beneficial ownership to be registered with Companies House, which links into the Land Registry’s requirement to ensure that something is properly registered with Companies House before it allows a transfer or a sale to happen. Without the Land Registry doing that, of course, people cannot sell or transfer a piece of land or property.

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[Kevin Hollinrake]

That is what it will do. It is a public register, of course, so the beneficial owner will be revealed and, if that person is on the sanctioned list, that asset can be frozen. That is how it would work. In the legislation, schedule 3 paragraph 6 requires the Land Registry to do that, and it can prohibit or restrict a transfer or a sale. That is the key to this. The only respect in which the legislation is not currently fit for purpose, in my view, is that that does not take effect for 18 months. If we took those clauses out or changed the timescales so that it came into immediate effect on the commencement date of the legislation—that is, from day one—it would potentially prevent that sale or transfer of assets from one person or entity to another and the moving of those assets around, and thus prevent what we are all concerned about—asset flight.

I know the Minister has responded to this question a couple of times from the Dispatch Box, but I think there is a good chance this particular amendment would pass if pushed to a vote. I would appreciate confirmation from the Minister at the Dispatch Box whether the Government will, as he has indicated they would, table an amendment in the Lords that has a similar effect, so that we have a day one restriction or prohibition on the sale or transfer of assets from one to another. If he is willing to do that—[Hon. Members: “Do it now!”]

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. We are not having this—we are getting on with things. Otherwise, people who have something to say will not get a chance to say it. Mr Hollinrake, come on!

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I was just trying to establish whether this would be done in the Lords if it was not done here tonight, Dame Eleanor. Perhaps the Minister will say it later in his summing-up.

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[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. That was a very long intervention and it was too confusing. Was the hon. Lady speaking about something completely different from that which the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla Moran) was discussing?

[Sarah Olney]

I was talking about my new clause 13—

[The Chairman]

It is not the hon. Lady’s new clause; it is down as the Liberal Democrats’ new clause. Is it the official Liberal Democrat—

[Sarah Olney]

I beg your pardon, Dame Eleanor. The new clause is in my name, but I apologise for taking too long on my intervention.

[The Chairman]

We have to be careful not to allow things to be confused at Committee stage. Everyone gets their turn.

[Layla Moran]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. When the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy was at the Dispatch Box, he said that he would look closely at that amendment—it was the day before the vote on the National Insurance Contributions Bill—and I urge the Minister to look at that again.

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[Liam Byrne]

Thank you for calling me to speak, Dame Eleanor. I thank the Minister for his presentation to the House and for the spirit that I thought he brought to his remarks at the outset. He slightly walked back from some of that consensus, but I make the point to him that many of us across the House think that the Government’s approach to tackling economic crime is all holes and no net. We have tried, in 27 pages of amendments, to turn what should be a net into some snares. That is why we cannot understand why the Government are not taking on board some of the smaller, technical drafting amendments that we proposed tonight—and frankly, some of the bigger moves. The Minister has it in his power to drive those through tonight so that by the time the sun rises tomorrow, we would have in our country a much stronger framework for tackling economic crime to take to the other place.

I want to speak to the two amendments in my name—amendments 37 and 38—and weigh in on the debate on amendment 26 and new clauses 2 and 29. Let me start with amendment 26, because I was a Home Office Minister for a couple of years, and I have won and lost many cases as a Home Office Minister. I have to say to the Minister that the failure to remove the words “knowingly or recklessly” from the Bill is frankly the oligarchs’ loophole—their “Get out of trouble free” card. I add my plea to those of other hon. Members that we remove those words. Otherwise, frankly, we will stand by and watch the richest people on earth driving a coach and horses through our legislation.

My second point is about new clause 2. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Dame Margaret Hodge) said, the heart of our problem with sanctioning—our frankly embarrassing performance on it—is that as well as not having the right powers, we just do not have the right resources in place. The fact that the Government took away the title of Minister for Economic Crime tells us everything we need to know about their performance and attitude hitherto.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said, the United Kingdom has sanctioned 34 individuals and entities since the extension of the invasion; the EU has sanctioned more than 500. Of the Navalny list of 35 that the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla Moran) read out in the House the week before last, the UK has sanctioned just eight; the EU has sanctioned 19. However, what really troubles me is the question of resources, because that is obviously the core problem.

When I submitted parliamentary questions to the Foreign Office, the Treasury and the Home Office last week, I was frankly horrified. My question to the Foreign Office, which leads on sanctioning policy, was pretty straightforward: how much money is devoted to sanctioning, and how many civil servants are working on it? The answer from the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford), was about 16 lines long and did not mention either how many civil servants are working on sanctioning or how much money is being spent.

An answer to the same question came back from the Minister for Security and Borders. In a way, I admire the number of tropes folded into his answer:

“The National Crime Agency welcomes the announcement on the Combatting Kleptocracy Cell…They have already surged additional officers to support existing efforts and will”—

wait for it—

“move at pace to enhance the unit further”.

I put the same question to the Treasury. The Treasury being the Treasury, it said:

“The staff in post in OFSI was 37.8 FTE…This information can be found in HM Treasury’s Outcome Delivery Plan”.

That is the level of precision that we ask of every Department. Frankly, the silence tells us that all is not well. That is why new clause 2 is so very important.

New clause 29, tabled by the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), is incredibly important, but I push the Minister to go further. We need to be able not only to freeze assets, but to seize them. Paragraph 3.1.3 of the UK financial sanctions guidance in December 2020 says that the use of an asset, even when it is frozen, is not prohibited.

The Minister will forgive the Opposition for growing frustrated over the years at the economic policy that the Government have pursued, which has created a country of haves, have-nots and have-yachts. He can imagine how frustrated we are that the Government will not even seize the yachts when they belong to oligarchs. Somebody has very kindly shared with me a list of candidates that the Minister might want to consider: the My Solaris, owned by Roman Abramovich; the Eclipse, which is sailing in the north Atlantic and which the Government would have no means of either seizing or freezing as an asset if it docked at a UK port; the Valerie, owned by Sergey Chemezov, which is currently in Barcelona; the Lady Anastasia, which is currently in Mallorca in Spain; the Tango, which is also in Mallorca; the Palladium, which is currently in Barcelona; the Aurora, in Barcelona; Here Comes the Sun, in Mallorca; Ice, in Genoa; the Ragnar, in Narvik; Sailing Yacht A, owned by Melnichenko—

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman has a long list. It is enlivening proceedings and we are all grateful, but we do not have time. Will he please truncate his speech? Just say, “and 12 more,” or something like that.

[Liam Byrne]

I am grateful for your guidance, Dame Eleanor, because I think I have made my point: the Government need to take on more power to seize and freeze these assets.

The final point I wish to make is about strategic lawsuits against public participation. We recently had a good debate on lawfare, sponsored by the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden and myself. In amendments 37 and 38, we make proposals that the Government could adopt. I do not wish to press them to a vote tonight, but I would like the Minister to confirm what the Foreign Secretary and the Justice Secretary said in the media on Friday. The Justice Secretary told “BBC Breakfast” that SLAPPs were an

“abuse of our system and I’m going to be putting forward proposals to deal with that and to prevent that”.

The Foreign Secretary later told The Guardian that she had asked Government lawyers to “find literally any way” to crack down on SLAPPs. I would like this Minister’s confirmation that that is indeed going to happen, not in some consultation response to the Human Rights Act, but as a stand-alone piece of legislation, so that we can live in truth in this country. It is outrageous that English courts are being used as a means to silence journalists such as Tom Burgis, Carole Cadwalladr and Catherine Belton. I want great books such as “Butler to the World” by Oliver Bullough to be written with the freedom to tell the truth, and at the moment the oligarchs are denying us that freedom. They are launching a war on free speech in English courts, of all places. That scandal has surely got to stop.

I will conclude by saying that it is now clear that what our country needs Russia is a recontainment strategy towards Russia. That will entail a refortification of the NATO frontline to the east; resupplying the Ukrainian forces; and suppressing and repressing the Russian economy. Sanctions do not produce instant results—Presidents Mugabe and Maduro presided over economies in ruin for many years—but this would give us progress.

Domestic Building Works (Consumer Protection) Bill

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

Friday 19th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mark Garnier]

My hon. Friend is being incredibly kind. First, let me quickly say a great thanks to everybody, particularly the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) and all the various people who have been involved in the Bill. I think the Minister is very sincere in what he is saying about how we can collaborate. Before he finishes, in the light of all his undertakings and assurances of collaborative work, it would probably be a good idea if I were to withdraw my Bill. Am I allowed to beg to ask leave to withdraw my Bill, Madam Deputy Speaker?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

The hon. Gentleman cannot procedurally withdraw his Bill during an intervention on the Minister. If the Minister finishes his speech and the hon. Gentleman, with the leave of the House, is able to make another speech, then he may withdraw his Bill, but I have another Member trying to catch my eye. I think the answer might be that if we proceed speedily, all this might come to pass.

[Lee Rowley]

There has never been more of an invitation to be brief. In the interest of brevity, let me say that I would be very happy to continue the conversation with my hon. Friend, and I look forward to doing so.

[Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)]

Very briefly, may I say that I very much welcome the proportionate response from my hon. Friend the Minister? He says that this issue goes back many years. I remember raising an Adjournment debate entitled “Cowboy Builders” in the 1983 Parliament. In the 1987 Parliament, I was rewarded by becoming the Minister for the construction industry. I remember the representations then, and I remember working with the Federation of Master Builders and others.

As a lawyer, one of the most difficult questions I ever had to answer was, “Can you recommend a good solicitor?” That is also a really big challenge for those who are engaged in or thinking about having building work done. I hope that, as a result of today’s debate, people will realise that they should look at organisations such as the Federation of Master Builders and Checkatrade, and go for people who have a reputation locally. It may be a little more expensive, but otherwise they could get into all sorts of difficulties. When I worked for Ernst and Young, my boss there, who I thought had the wisdom of Solomon, ended up getting a rogue cowboy to redo his driveway. He then came to me, as a non-practising lawyer, asking for legal advice about it, and I said that it was too late.

Anyway, that is enough from me. I am pleased by the Government’s proportionate response. The Bill does not seek to define “domestic building works”, which must obviously be the starting point for any regulations.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I call Mark Garnier.

[Mark Garnier]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will just rattle through some thanks to colleagues—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman has to ask for the leave of the House. Say, “With the leave of the House”.

[Mark Garnier]

I was going to lead up to that.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

No, you have to do it now. Can we just get on with it, please? Say, “With the leave of the House”.

[Mark Garnier]

Okay. With the leave of the House, and in the light of the Minister’s assurances of further collaborative work on this issue, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Motion and Bill, by leave, withdrawn.

Income Tax (Charge)

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

Thursday 28th October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con)]

You are clearly talking about the tension between the costs of going too late or too soon in terms of efficiencies. Do you agree that you might have more credibility—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. Will the hon. Gentleman please refer to the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) as the right hon. Gentleman, not “you”? When someone says “you” in this House, they mean the Chair. We have to start getting that right; it is unprofessional not to.

[Dr Mullan]

My apologies, Madam Deputy Speaker. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that he would have more credibility on the issue if he had not backed Labour’s 2030 net zero target, which even his own unions did not support? He has no credibility on that point.

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[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) and I hope to have a meeting with you shortly on hydrogen and how it can be used to advance this great United Kingdom. Can you confirm exactly how it will benefit every part of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman that he cannot address the Minister as “Minister”; he has to address him as “the right hon. Gentleman” or say “would the Minister?”, because when he says “Minister” that is second person, vocative case. He cannot say “Minister.” Other Members might know that the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and I have been having this conversation now for several years and it is my ambition that he will get it right, and one day he will.

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

We are very grateful for the long-forgotten grammar lessons administered from the Chair.

Hydrogen is important, and we have had debates on it in Westminster Hall and this place. I look forward to engaging with the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) on this; I am due to visit Northern Ireland and I am sure we will have very constructive conversations.

The global investment summit was a huge success, and it was proof that, contrary to the picture of devastation, gloom and pessimism painted by Opposition Members, we are open for business as a country and attracting investment to a degree we have never seen before. It showed in the Budget yesterday that, as we race towards a new and brighter future, the Government will make driving economic recovery through private investment—that is central to this—a top priority. That is something I certainly commend to the House.

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

The House will be aware that everybody wants to speak. We have plenty of time for the debate this afternoon, but I hope to manage it without a time limit. If everybody takes around seven to eight minutes, everyone who wishes to speak will have an opportunity to do so and we will manage without a time limit. If that does not work, later in the debate I will put on a time limit, but it is so much more dignified if we manage without one.

Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

Friday 22nd October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I am sure the whole House joins me in congratulating the hon. Gentleman on his newly-born grandson, and sends its congratulations to our former colleague, his father, on being a great-grandfather. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”]

[Mark Pawsey]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Your remarks are most appreciated.

I want to participate in today’s debate for much the same reason as my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake). I ran a business before coming here and I am also a member of the BEIS Committee, which considered the dispute between British Gas and the GMB union.

I want to start off by considering the term “fire and rehire”. I think the term “fire and rehire” is emotive. It has not been helpful in a number of instances of use in this debate, which has been fairly consensual. I have to say that I think the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Bradford East (Imran Hussain), did not help the tone of today’s debate with his remarks. But there is an understanding that, where it is used as a negotiating tactic, fire and rehire is wrong and we do need to work hard to deal with that.

I want to look at the terms “dismissal” and “re-engagement”, because as an employer and someone who ran a business, the term “re-engagement” filled me with profound happiness: it was often a member of staff who had left my business and wanted to rejoin us, and often people who had gone away, broadened their experience and came back to our business with additional skills and additional knowledge. That was really quite encouraging and happened fairly often.

As an employer and a business owner, the term “dismissal” caused me a massive amount of grief. It was an issue we would never take lightly, but occasionally there would be a need to carry out dismissal on the basis of poor performance or unacceptable behaviour. But if ever my business went down that road, we knew that there were very strict rules of procedure laid down. We had to go through the correct processes, we had to be entirely sure of our facts and we had to build a case in the sure knowledge that that could be subject to a tribunal case and my business could be found to have behaved inappropriately or unfairly. I do think that, on occasions, the burden on business, and what it has to go through in the very sad cases in which that happens, is forgotten. I have to say that, at that time, the advice and guidance of ACAS in ensuring that my business behaved appropriately was incredibly helpful and very valuable.

[Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab)]

I would like to thank the hon. Member for highlighting the plight of those smaller businesses. Would he agree that Heathrow airport, British Airways, British Gas, Weetabix, Clarks, Argos and Sainsbury’s all are iconic British businesses? They have not engaged with their workforce, but they have engaged with that practice of fire and rehire. They are not struggling businesses. They are not just trying to get by. [Interruption.] They are not just trying to get by. They are powerful combinations—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

They are—

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[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order! Did the hon. Lady not hear me? She cannot make a speech. She can make an intervention. That is absolutely fine—[Interruption.] No, no. It is becoming a speech. If she has an intervention to make, then make an intervention, and she should not have to read an intervention because it should be really short.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Would the hon. Member agree that these big, iconic British businesses are not engaging with their workforce like him, but they are engaging in fire and rehire practices, and they are a disgrace to British workers and to the name of Britain—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. I think we have got it—Mr Pawsey.

[Mark Pawsey]

I think I understand the point, and I think the hon. Lady, if she has been here throughout the debate, will understand that there is a desire from this side for that not to happen, and for discussions and negotiations to take place at a much earlier stage.

We have had reference to the ACAS paper that was published in June 2021, which of course makes interesting reading. It tells us that dismissal and re-engagement is not new and has been around for some time, and it sets out the scenarios where it has been applied. Those of course include the harmonising of terms and conditions. There are many businesses that make acquisitions and find that they have staff on different terms from businesses that have come together over a number of years, and it is not appropriate for one set of employees in a business to be operating on different terms and conditions from those elsewhere in the business. There is a prima facie case, an immediate case, for why there should be some standardisation. During the pandemic, businesses have been required to introduce temporary or permanent flexibility in respect of hours worked, shift patterns and the security of hours. Covid has substantially affected—

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[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Given the feeling on this side of the House about fire and rehire, I wonder whether you can inform those Members who find this a profoundly disagreeable position whether the House authorities, or contractors providing services on behalf of the House, are utilising the policy of fire and rehire for the delivery of services within the Palace of Westminster.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his very reasonable point of order. He has asked a question to which I cannot give him a direct answer, because I do not know the answer, but I would say to him that it is of course not a matter for the Chair. It is, however, a matter for the House authorities. When I say it is not a matter for the Chair, I do not mean to imply that it is a matter about which the Chair is unconcerned. I will therefore endeavour to find out the answer to his question and let him know as soon as I possibly can.

[Mark Pawsey]

I was in the process of setting out the scenarios identified by ACAS in its paper of June 2021 on where dismissal and reinstatement had been used. The final point, which has been made by Conservative Members in particular, is the challenge of business survival in the current circumstances, with covid, and the need for businesses to get through an incredibly difficult time.

The ACAS paper also identified a number of differing attitudes to the reasonableness of using dismissal and reinstatement in dealing with one of those scenarios. It set out a series of positions, including, at the very top, the view that this should never be used. Before arriving in the Chamber this morning, I believed that that was the attitude of the Member promoting the Bill; I believed that he would never permit dismissal and reinstatement to take place. However, he told us today that in certain circumstances it can exist and that he is seeking not to ban it but to ensure that it is never needed to be used. I am sure that a number of his Opposition colleagues do not agree with that approach and would be in the “never” camp. Others see it as being a matter of concern when it is a negotiation tactic, which I think is a view common on this side of the House. There are those who see it as an option of genuine last resort, a view again sympathetically understood by those on this side. Others think it is not at all contentious—I do not think that anybody here believes that—and there are some who believe it is perfectly acceptable at any time, and the House has made its view clear on that.

I now wish to turn to the issue of Centrica, because the Select Committee on Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy looked at that. We heard in Centrica’s evidence to the Committee that the costs of its services were between 30% and 50% more expensive than the use of contractors. The senior management had real concerns about the viability of their business ongoing. They sought less to deal with the issue of pay, but more to deal with the number of hours on a standard contract. They wanted to increase that from 37 to 40 hours. Indeed, in their restructuring 20% of their staff would receive a pay rise. One thing that the chief executive reminded us of in his evidence was the need for businesses to keep sight of what the customer wants and what their needs are. Those of us who have been in business will know that the customer is king and that those of us who disregard the needs of our customers put their businesses at a significant disadvantage. Where businesses are uncompetitive, it is important to deal with these things at an early stage, because otherwise, as we know, the danger is of long-term redundancies and business failures, which are not in the interests of anybody.

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[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. The hon. Ladies who are heckling me from the Labour Benches are quite right. The hon. Gentleman should not be making a speech. He is making an intervention. He can make two or three interventions, but he cannot make one long speech.

[Paul Scully]

Thank you very much for that clarification, Madam Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend makes a really interesting point about unemployment.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. It appears to me that there are considerably fewer Members in the Chamber now than voted against the closure motion you granted earlier. That would tend to give credence to the idea that the Government Whips have deliberately organised their Back Benchers to wreck the Bill by voting against the closure motion and then sent them home. Is it in your gift to grant a second closure motion, so that we can now test the will of those here in Parliament?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order, which is a perfectly reasonable one and one that had crossed my mind. However, I have come to the conclusion that, with everyone in the Chamber having been sitting here since 9.30 am, the Tea Room is probably full to overflowing at present. I am therefore not inclined to consider a second closure motion, having taken the will of the House less than an hour ago. That does not create a precedent for not doing so, but I am giving the hon. Gentleman a straight answer to his straight question.

[Paul Scully]

Thank you for that clarification, Madam Deputy Speaker. Indeed, I think Members from both sides of the House are taking advantage of the Tea Room, because both sides are lighter in numbers at the moment, but I always bow to your perspicacity. I would have thought that, in the last 20 minutes or so of the debate, Members pushing the Bill would want to hear the Government’s response to the merits or otherwise of the Bill, and what we are trying to do about the issue.

Supporting Small Business

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)]

I recognise the issues that you have raised in terms of the sectors that are likely to be impacted by the changes and because of the pandemic, but do you also agree that the brewing and pubs—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. Would the hon. Lady please address the hon. Lady as “she”?

[Kim Johnson]

I apologise. Does my hon. Friend agree that the brewing and pubs sector has been hard hit by the pandemic and is set to be hit again by the proposed rises in VAT, beer duty and business rates? In Liverpool, the greatest city in the world, the sector contributes over 6,000 jobs and £160 million to the local economy. Does she agree that supporting this sector is vital in securing jobs and boosting our local economies?

Subsidy Control Bill

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 22nd September 2021 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. Before I call the next speaker, let me say that it would appear that the Division bell is not operating properly in Speaker’s Court, and that those in the offices in that part of the Palace might not hear the bell properly. I hope hon. Members will not rely entirely on hearing the Division bell to know that there is a Division taking place. It is not unusual for there to be a Division. There may or may not be one when we conclude this debate, but it is not unusual that there should be a Division when we have Second Reading of a Bill.

For new Members who have not quite got it yet, if a Division takes place, it will take place immediately after the concluding speech by the Minister. In this case, the Minister is the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully), so if anyone is in any doubt as to when a Division might take place, if there is one, it will be after they see the hon. Gentleman’s name on the Annunciator. If they watch out for that, it will not matter that they cannot hear the Division bell, because they will know that a Division is likely, and on their monitor it will say “Division”.

I hope that that will help to prompt people to know that a Division might take place. I have no idea when that might be. I can only tell hon. Members that it will be at 7 o’clock at the latest; it depends on how long the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam speaks at the Dispatch Box. But first, we have Robin Millar.

Advanced Research and Invention Agency Bill

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

Report stage & 3rd reading
Monday 7th June 2021 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Flynn]

It is a pleasure to follow the Chair of the Select Committee, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), and the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband). The points that have been made by both, although varied, have certainly covered off many of the points that I would seek to address. I have no desire—and I am sure that Government Members have no desire—to hear many of the arguments that I have expressed previously tonight on Report, in Committee and on Second Reading.

I would like to place on record my thanks to all those involved in proceedings over the course of recent months. They have done an outstanding job, particularly those in the House Service. I also thank our research team—in particular Scott Taylor and Jonny Kiehlmann, who have been a tower of strength, and provided us with a great deal of assistance and information.

I do not intend to keep the House much longer, as I am keen to get home myself, so I will leave it at that.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

That is one of the best conclusions to a speech I have ever heard.

Advanced Research and Invention Agency Bill

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 23rd March 2021 Commons Chamber

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

Forgive me, I did not say that it was modelled on that example. I said that it was inspired, and I referred allusively, in my usual way, to historical precedent. I never said that it was modelled exactly on the American example. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will make a fuller contribution to the debate.

Let me make some progress. Different funding methods obviously suit different projects. ARIA may seek to use seed grants. It will have inducement prizes. It may make its own investments in companies. All of these different approaches will drive innovation, and that will allow ARIA to target, for example, a Scottish university or a semiconductor start-up in Wales and to ensure that researchers across the UK can contribute to developing the key technologies for tomorrow.

ARIA will also have strategic independence. It will, as I have said, have the freedom to fail; it will have the freedom to take a long-term view and to experiment with new ways of funding the most ambitious research, which experience tells us is a necessary ingredient for some of the best results. A key part of this freedom will be trusting the leadership of ARIA to identify and decide on areas of research with perhaps the greatest potential. The Bill limits the ability for Ministers, as it should do, to intervene in ARIA’s day-to-day operations or to direct funding decisions. Instead, ARIA will have a highly skilled team of leadership programme managers who, supported by the board, will ensure strong strategic oversight over the portfolio of programmes. As the Bill makes clear, ARIA must have regard to the benefits of that research to the UK—to the people of this country—in terms of not only economic growth but trying to ensure that innovation can improve the quality of life of all our fellow subjects.

Our response to coronavirus as a nation has shown that agility is crucial in funding research in this fast-moving world. All of this work builds on action already taken by the Government and by UK Research and Innovation to reduce unnecessary bureaucracy in the wider ecosystem. We have learned from agencies such as DARPA in the US—the hon. Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner) will be pleased to learn that—which has shown that we need to go several steps further in creating a culture that is primarily focused on pursuing high-risk research. There is a cultural need in such an organisation for autonomy and a measure of dynamism, which can be achieved through exceptional leadership and, perhaps most importantly, through a flat, streamlined structure.

ARIA will benefit from being a small and nimble agency. It will create a unique environment for its programme managers to be completely focused on their particular research proposal. The Bill therefore provides ARIA with some additional but proportionate freedoms, which are not generally found in the rest of our system. For example, it exempts ARIA from public contracting rules. That will allow ARIA to procure R&D services and equipment relating to its research goals in a similar way to a private sector organisation. To ensure that that process is transparent, it sits alongside a commitment in the Bill to audit ARIA’s procurement activities.

In order to further this research-intensive culture, ARIA has been given extensive freedoms. However, we will ensure, as the Bill does, that the organisation submits a statement of accounts and an annual report on its activities, which will be laid directly before Parliament. Those commitments to transparency will sit alongside the customary and necessary scrutiny by the National Audit Office.

It is clear that ARIA will be a unique and extremely valuable addition in our research landscape. It will create a more diverse, more dynamic and creative funding system, which will ensure that transformative ideas, wherever they may come from, can change people’s lives for the better.

I am very conscious that there is a huge amount of interest in this debate on the Back Benches on both sides of the House. I have committed myself not to go on for two hours or whatever the customary length of time might be. Having been a Back Bencher myself, I know that it is often frustrating to hear Front Benchers trench on parliamentary time. As a consequence, I hope that hon. and right hon. Members will agree that, as we build back better, we can have a full debate today about the merits of ARIA and its necessary existence. I hope that the Bill will show the Government’s strong commitment to building on a wonderful research base. On that basis, I commend the Bill to the House.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

This is an opportune moment for me to give notice to people who are hoping to speak in the debate—those here in the Chamber, but particularly those at home who perhaps might not pick up the atmosphere and be tempted to do the opposite of what the Secretary of State has just said by taking rather longer than they ought to take. I am going to try to run this Second Reading debate without a formal time limit, in the hope that Members will act reasonably and unselfishly towards their colleagues, and keep their speeches to about five to six minutes, or less. I say this particularly to people who are at home, because I cannot nod to them or grimace at them to let them know when they have spoken for too long. Five minutes would be just about right for everyone who wishes to speak to have the opportunity to do so.

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[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

May I, on behalf of all the hon. Gentleman’s friends from across the House, wish him well on his last appearance here in this Chamber? I fully appreciate that, as the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Stephen Flynn) said a few moments ago, no Scottish nationalist ever wants to be here in this Parliament, but I thank him for the service that he has given and the contributions that he has made while he has been here. Of course, I will try very hard not to say anything further than that, except that he is clearly going to be busy with his ever-growing family, regardless of what happens over the next few weeks, and in a personal capacity we wish him well.