HS2: Wales

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact, if any, of the HS2 rail project in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, HS2 will free up capacity on the existing west coast main line and enable faster journey times from the rest of Great Britain to both north and south Wales via new interchange opportunities. Journey times from many places in north Wales to London could be reduced to around two and a quarter hours, changing at the refurbished Crewe station.

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab)]

The continued categorisation of HS2 as an England and Wales project by the UK Treasury scuppers the Welsh Government’s ability to invest in rail in Wales. In July 2021, the Welsh Affairs Committee concluded that HS2 should be reclassified as an England-only scheme. Will the Minister review this profoundly unfair situation?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, it is the case that Wales does not receive Barnett funding from HS2, as the UK Government remain responsible for heavy rail infrastructure in England and Wales, but the use of departmental comparability factors in the Barnett formula at spending reviews means that the Welsh Government have received a significant uplift in Barnett-based funding.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a former member of the HS2 Select Committee, which sat every day, mostly all day, for two years—a bit of an exile to the eastern front, if there ever was one. There is now a lot of uncertainty over the northern sections of HS2. Does she agree that it is incredibly important that this uncertainty is cleared up as soon as possible—not least because of the number of properties that have been blighted and the amount of compensation that will have to be paid if these two links go ahead?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for his service on the Select Committee—I know that these Bills can sometimes be very large indeed. That for phase 2b, the western leg, is in the other place at the moment, and a Select Committee is being put in place. The Government remain committed to delivering HS2, as the Secretary of State set out in his update to Parliament last month.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, in her answer to the noble Baroness, the Minister had an interesting new interpretation of the way in which the Barnett formula works. In the past, it has always been possible to track through how much Barnett money would come, and why. It has not been possible in this case to detect Barnett formula money as a result of HS2. Can the Minister explain to us exactly how much Wales has received in Barnett consequentials as a result of this project, and when that money was received and why?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I tried to explain, the Government take an overarching approach, as heavy rail infrastructure is the responsibility of the Government in England and Wales. But if one looks at rail investment in Wales, one can see that we are investing record amounts already. In CP6, we have invested £2 billion in Wales alone, which includes £1.2 billion in renewals and upgrading infrastructure and £373 million for rail enhancements.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, Ministers have said that all trains from south Wales to Paddington will stop at Old Oak Common, the station of HS2 in London. That will add 10 minutes to the journey. How much will that station cost and how many years of delay will there be while it is constructed on the Great Western main line?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord and I have had many conversations about Old Oak Common in the past. The Government remain committed to the construction of Old Oak Common; we believe that having trains stopping there will mean that the station becomes a vital integrated transport link in west London, which would lead into many other parts of London and beyond.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not the case that the taxpayer is being ripped off by contractors because there is a lack of oversight of this scheme? What are the Government going to do to bring it back into budget?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

If the noble Lord is talking about HS2, I do not recognise his comments about the Government being ripped off, but I certainly recognise that the Government must make sure that the scheme is adequately scrutinised. Indeed, that is the case. As he will have seen from the most recent update to Parliament, HS2 remains within its funding envelope.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister is absolutely right to say that north Wales will benefit from the construction of HS2, with shorter journey times and relief of overcrowding on the west coast main line. Would it not be even more sensible, rather than expecting passengers to change at Crewe, if the north Wales coast line were electrified before High Speed 2 got to Crewe, so they could run through trains along the north Wales coast which are all High Speed 2 trains?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord is trying to get me to make commitments from the Dispatch Box which I am not able to make, unfortunately. However, I think it is worth understanding that the Crewe interchange as it is now planned was substantially revamped following significant concerns from stakeholders in north Wales and beyond. We have altered the Crewe northern connection so that it could allow for five to seven trains per hour to call at Crewe and then to be able to go down the high-speed line or, indeed, the conventional track.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend referred to the uncertainty over the northern part of HS2. Will she commit to rail improvements for the northern rail project to make sure that we have a new line to open up the railway between Teesside and Liverpool?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As my noble friend will know, the Government set out in the integrated rail plan tens of billions of pounds of investment across the north and the Midlands. We want to take that forward in line with the 2019 manifesto. She will also be aware that an Autumn Statement is coming up on 17 November, and I cannot say anything further at this time.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, in the discussions which the noble Baroness has undoubtedly had with the Treasury on the benefits of continuing with HS2 north of Birmingham, has she pointed out that the city of Birmingham has already seen massive inward investment by companies moving there in advance of HS2 coming? Does she not agree that the same would happen in the north if HS2 were to continue up there?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord that Birmingham and the surrounding areas have seen huge investment following the confirmation that HS2 would go there. Indeed, the same could well happen for the western leg. It is in the strategic case, and the case for HS2 going north from Birmingham is strengthened by the fact that we believe businesses will flock to Manchester and other areas.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

As a north Walian, I support all the concerns that the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, and others have mentioned already. What I and a lot of north Walians are concerned about is that we have no through trains on the Holyhead to Euston line—although I think there is just one through train a day. I came here this morning, and I had to change on the way; often, we have to change at Crewe and at Chester. Why is this promise of a through train from north Wales to Euston not being kept? What is the cause of that?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I understand the noble Lord’s concern, and the Government are looking very carefully at train timetables at the moment. Noble Lords will have heard me discuss in the House before the challenges at Avanti. We are working very closely with Avanti to make sure that it can offer as full a service as possible. The next upgrade is on 11 December.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Berkeley asked some specific questions about costs and delays which I do not think the Minister answered. Could she do so now, please?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked me about the cost of Old Oak Common station. I do not have that figure to hand, but I will be happy to write.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

I welcome the Minister’s clear assertion on behalf of the Government that they remain fully committed to the construction of HS2. There can be barely a capital expenditure programme that has been examined so repeatedly, not only nationwide but here in the House of Lords. Can I remind her that opposition to HS2 is in the finest traditions of the House of Lords, which in the 1830s threw out the London to Birmingham railway proposal? Fortunately, that was later reversed, but if it had been thrown out and the Lords had succeeded in their opposition, we would be in an infinitely worse position than we are today.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reminder. I will ensure that the relevant people in my department are aware of it.

Seafarers’ Wages Bill [HL]

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 7th November 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Bill do now pass.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, in moving that the Bill do now pass, I would like to reflect for a couple of minutes on the Bill and its passage. This legislation, although necessarily limited in scope, is a key part of the Government’s nine-point plan to improve seafarer welfare and working conditions. The Bill delivers on the Government’s commitment to ensure that employees with close ties to the UK are paid at least the equivalent of the national minimum wage while they are working in the UK or its territorial waters.

I reiterate the Government’s intention to continue working closely with ports, the shipping sector and unions as the Bill continues its passage through the House of Commons and, crucially, as we develop secondary legislation. We are very grateful to stakeholders for their constructive engagement and interest in the legislation so far and are keen for this to continue.

I will also take this opportunity to clarify a point I made in Committee about seafarers servicing oil and gas platforms. I had previously stated that seafarers on services to offshore renewable energy installations were also covered by virtue of Article 2 of the National Minimum Wage (Offshore Employment) Order 1999. I would like to correct the record and confirm that they are not entitled to the national minimum wage under existing legislation but are considered to already be in scope of the Bill if calling at a UK port more than 120 times per year.

As ever, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Scott of Needham Market and Lady Randerson, for their constructive approach to each stage of this Bill and to all other noble Lords who contributed, many of whom brought deep and specific expertise. Last but definitely not least, I pay tribute to the work of the parliamentary counsel as well as the House staff, the Bill team, my excellent private office, and my noble friend Lord Younger for his support.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I will comment briefly. The Bill is an important first step in the nine-point plan. I am very pleased that the Minister has reiterated her commitment to proceed on that plan; we all wait to see early progress. I will be studying the words relating to the clarification. I thank her and her support staff for the way that she has conducted the Bill. I do not have as many people to thank on my side, but I thank my adviser—who wrote some excellent speeches that the House heard—for supporting this work, and all noble Lords who took part.

Merchant Shipping (Safety Standards for Passenger Ships on Domestic Voyages) (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2022

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 11 July be approved.

Relevant document: 10th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, these draft regulations will be made under powers conferred by the Merchant Shipping Act 1992. These regulations are not EU related and are caught by Schedule 8 to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 only by virtue of the fact that they amend a definition which was previously amended using Section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972. The term in question is “approved”, the meaning of which is currently limited to meaning approved under the Merchant Shipping (Marine Equipment) Regulations 2016, but these regulations broaden its meaning and that is why they are caught.

The regulations are the last of several measures which have been introduced over many years following the “Marchioness” tragedy in 1989, when 51 lives were lost—a figure which could so easily have been higher. Since that disaster, we have seen published Lord Justice Clarke’s Thames Safety Inquiry into that incident, a Marine Accident Investigation Branch report on the same and a more general formal safety assessment study into domestic passenger ship safety. These reports and their recommendations have driven a raft of measures to improve safety in this area. The recommendations covered a wide variety of situations and have resulted in a significant number of safety improvements between then and now, culminating in the regulations covering older ships under consideration today.

Early safety developments following the “Marchioness” tragedy covered the categorisation of inland and inshore waters according to risk, the creation of the boatmaster’s licence and qualifications, and higher bridge-visibility standards to make navigation safer. Some enhanced stability standards, which aid survivability, were introduced in 1992 and standards for modern domestic passenger ships were introduced in 2010 for ships built from that year onwards, but applying similar standards for existing, pre-2010, and particularly pre-1992, vessels was more challenging. These standards have now been developed in conjunction with industry through the Government’s domestic passenger ship safety group and are set out in these regulations.

The Government have undertaken extensive and almost unprecedented engagement on these regulations. They were developed within the main government and industry safety group and also benefited from two public consultations and five interactive workshops with industry, conducted by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency—MCA. The regulations have also been discussed in other meetings with industry over a period of several years and Ministers have engaged with stakeholders on these matters. I believe that this engagement was crucial, despite the inevitable additional delays that have arisen because of it.

Every person, whether native or tourist, using passenger transport in the UK has a right to expect—and I believe does expect—that whichever vessel they choose to carry them will meet consistent standards fit for the 21st century. If we do not grasp the nettle and improve the standards, certain vessels will be allowed to remain in the last century indefinitely. These regulations increase the life jacket carriage requirements and life raft capacity for ships operating in all but the safest waters. We believe that the assumption of passengers is that there are enough life jackets for everyone on board and likewise enough space in life rafts for all, but this is currently not the case for many vessels.

While these regulations cover a number of safety areas, including fire-protection measures, life-saving appliances, bilge pumping and warnings, one of the most important aspects of the standards for applicable ships is damage stability, perhaps more easily understood as survivability, which must be sufficient to keep the ship afloat for long enough for passengers and crew to escape in an emergency.

Some have argued that older ships should not have to meet modern safety standards because of historic interest. Some have said that this is an attack on Dunkirk “little ships”, although the overwhelming majority of them are unaffected by the regulations. I am not against the preservation of older ships which are of genuine historic interest, but I argue that government has a responsibility to ensure that all passenger transport meets modern safety standards, including those on vessel stability, or survivability.

Some older ships, if holed below the waterline, can sink in seconds. Those on board would not have time to ascend to the upper decks, let alone put on life jackets. In this type of situation, there is barely time to make a call to the emergency services, let alone wait for them to arrive. We must ensure that these vessels stay afloat long enough so that people are not trapped inside a submerged vessel or cast into fast-flowing water.

I hope I have highlighted the importance of these regulations. They fulfil our duty as government to ensure that appropriate maritime transport safety standards are in place. I beg to move.

Amendment to the Motion

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for presenting this SI, my noble friend Lord Berkeley for his amendment, and all Peers who have taken part in this discussion.

This instrument, to apply safety requirements to certain passenger vessels built before 1965, has my full support, but my noble friend is right to ask why it has not been brought forward until now. These are important requirements relating to fire safety, bilge alarms, lifeboats, lights and life jackets, which have been called for over recent decades. I hope that the Minister will explain why they have not been introduced sooner. Until now, the regulations have applied only to vessels built since 2010, which has left over 600 vessels not meeting the standard.

I hope that the Minister can account for the delay and confirm whether the department has received reports of any safety incidents which may have otherwise been prevented had this instrument been brought forward sooner. Can the Minister also confirm whether any further vessels are in any way exempt? Finally, what steps will the department take to monitor compliance with these regulations?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to all noble Lords for this short debate and am relieved and delighted that all noble Lords agree that these regulations are necessary. All noble Lords—including the Minister—agree that they have potentially taken too long. That should concern all noble Lords and I will start by addressing the timeline.

I mentioned in opening that there has been an inordinate amount of engagement on this, because the types of vessels and ships that we are covering in these regulations are hugely diverse. They operate in very different categories of water. The Government received an enormous amount of pressure and representation from Members of your Lordships’ house, from Members of Parliament and from local elected officials—and, of course, they are all absolutely right to bring these matters to our attention. However, it caused some delay in reaching the right balance, which I believe we have got to today.

We had two public consultations, which was good, and five workshops between 2016 and 2019. Since then, we have focused on some of the more challenging vessels, where safety was not necessarily 100% proven and there was a case to be made, which is why we ended up taking so long on these regulations. However, we are where we are, and we have to play on the pitch we are on. We are now putting them in front of your Lordships’ House, and I hope they will be passed today.

West Coast Main Line

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what discussions they have held with Avanti West Coast about the (1) frequency, and (2) reliability, of train services on the West Coast Main Line.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the department meets Avanti West Coast regularly to discuss operational performance. This includes monitoring the delivery of its plans to restore and improve its services. From December, Avanti plans to operate 264 daily train services on weekdays, which is a significant step up from the around 180 daily services at present.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, I first congratulate the Minister on surviving the departmental cull. She is one of the few surviving stars in an ever-changing galaxy, as far the Department for Transport is concerned. Long may she continue to twinkle.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

Will she accept that Avanti is incapable of running the skeleton service that it is supposed to provide at present? Will she accept that its prospects of increasing that service in the way that she outlined are pretty slim, given its record so far? Is there some ideological reason why those of us who are condemned to use the west coast main line cannot enjoy the same facilities as those who use the publicly run east coast main line? Could she ask the Rail Minister —perhaps she could tell us who this is—whether we can be provided with the same standard of service as those who are lucky enough to live on the east coast?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his kind words, and I am sorry only that I am not the Rail Minister, who is my honourable friend Huw Merriman in the other place. As noble Lords may know, he is the former chair of the Transport Committee, so he knows his onions. On Avanti, the noble Lord is right: as I have said many times, we are not content with the service provided. We are content that a plan is in place, and it is being scrutinised as it is being implemented. Avanti remains on probation, and the operator of last resort remains an option, of course.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, the Minister will recall that I praised the LNER east coast service last week, and I was supported by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer. The Minister agreed that the quality of staff was important, but she also said that nationalisation was not the solution to the problem on the west coast, as described by the noble Lord, Lord Snape. Has the Minister made an assessment of the management and provision of the services on both sides of the divide in the country to determine why a parallel service working on one side is managed far better by her department than a similar operator in the private sector? Is this due to poor investment, bad management or excessive dividend payments?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, the train network is extremely complicated, and it is not a homogenous system. That is why the performance of the train operating companies is subject to independent adjudication, which is really important. The Government will take their performance into consideration when they come to any future decisions.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my registered interest as chairman of Transport for the North. If Avanti’s commitment to 264 services is not met, what does my noble friend imagine the department’s response will be, bearing in mind that it does not have very long to do so?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are confident that those services will come on stream, as agreed with Avanti. The services form part of its recovery plan, which we are monitoring as times progress, as are the ORR and Network Rail’s programme management office. I would like Avanti to succeed, and we are giving it all the support to do so. But, if it does not, action will of course have to be taken.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

The Minister might wish to agree on the essential importance of an effective rail system to transport freight. Would she care to make a statement on that, with particular reference to the west of the country and any challenges that are being faced there?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Yes, I know that the noble Viscount is a great champion of freight. The west coast main line is a key corridor for rail freight, particularly between the deep seaports and the distribution hubs both in the Midlands and across the country. Indeed, the industry estimates that about 90% of all intermodal trains use the west coast main line for part of their journey—that is, 90,000 trains a year—so that is also great for emissions reduction. We want to keep rail freight moving. We understand that this can be challenging when there are engineering works, and we take that into consideration. Where there is strike action, we do our best to communicate with the freight sector to ensure that it can plan accordingly.

[Lord Jordan (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

It is the turn of this side; noble Lords from other parties have had three questions on the trot.

Can the Minister be brought back to the here and now? There should have been a national strike tomorrow; it has been transferred to next week, which is the run-up to Remembrance Sunday. On Monday, there is rail strike and a Tube strike; on Tuesday, there are no tickets for sale for the north on Avanti trains; and on Wednesday, there is a national strike. I spoke to the manager of the Union Jack Club this morning, who told me that this is going to have devasting effects on bookings by people trying to come down for Remembrance Sunday. So what can the Government do to stop this indiscriminate guerrilla strike action that is bringing misery to hundreds of thousands of people at the very time of remembrance? This is a time when people want to remember the freedoms we got from people who died in the First and Second World Wars and other conflicts throughout the world: freedom to move, freedom to associate with each other and freedom to come to remembrances. These union barons must be held to account for at a whim changing these strikes to make it more difficult for people to travel at times when they need to travel—it has to stop.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Perhaps the noble Lord would like to cross the Floor.

The noble Lord is completely right: strikes are hugely disruptive to people who want to come to Remembrance Sunday and related events around that time, and to those who want to go to school or work. We remain committed to trying to resolve these strikes; we do not want them to continue. However, we must have an agile and modern workforce so that we can deliver a modern seven-day railway. If the unions stand in the way of that, we cannot the deliver the passenger services that are required.

[Lord Herbert of South Downs (Con)]

My Lords, the performance of the operator on the west coast main line cannot be excused, but is it not also the case that there are severe capacity restraints on the west coast main line? It is Europe’s busiest mixed-use line, which means that it is hard to increase the number of passengers or freight in the long term. Does that not remind us of the importance of increasing capacity, which means continuing with the HS2 project that will not only increase speed but capacity, thereby relieving that line and two other main lines in the country?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right: there are capacity constraints on the west coast main line that impact both passengers and freight. It is also the case that the west coast main line is fairly old, and therefore engineering works are necessary; that caused some disruption between 22 and 30 October. So he is absolutely right that we must continue to invest in our railways, and that is what the Government are doing.

[Lord Jordan (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the promises made by Avanti to run three trains an hour from London to Birmingham have not been honoured, and, worse still, that it is now running only one train an hour between two of the country’s largest cities? Could she tell us why—despite making surely the understatement of the year that the performance of Avanti trains was dreadful—its contract was extended?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not entirely sure where the noble Lord gets those figures from, because my understanding is that on weekdays between 7 am and 9 am—for example, between Birmingham and London—the services are actually at pre-pandemic levels. Of course, there have been changes to the timetable at some other points, but that is very much down to changes in travel habits, such that the system needs to have a demand-led timetable so that we can ensure that people can travel when they need to.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

If I were a nurse and decided to work only half my contracted hours and demanded to be paid my full salary, I would be rejected out of hand. Yet Avanti has essentially done this: it has provided less than half its service to some major cities, but it is still paid the standard contract fee. I ask the Minister: why are DfT contracts written so loosely that it is still entitled to that?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think it is absolutely right, as I said earlier, that the performance is subject to independent  adjudication. If there is any action to be taken by the DfT, we would follow the legal and contractual processes. We are aware that there is an opportunity to improve our contracting as we move forward and that is why we hope to move to passenger service contracts in due course to encourage competition and enable services to run as they should.

Seafarers’ Wages Bill [HL]

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, to make some general comments, we welcome the Bill. I think everybody has been shocked by P&O’s behaviour, but this goes a bit deeper than that. I had no idea how badly seamen are paid. It is disgraceful. This is clearly a worldwide problem, and there are problems with addressing it from a singular point of view.

I also object to the criticism of my noble friend by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, because this has been a normal Bill. We could not vote in Grand Committee for the usual conventional reasons. It was well debated—the noble Lord would know that if he had been present. Essentially, Amendment 2 is a judgment about degree, and we come to a different judgment than the Government. While we support the Bill in general, we have amendments where we think that a little finesse will make it more effective. A weekly service is the sort of thing that should be within the scope of the Bill. While we will not press Amendment 1, we will support the noble Lord if he wants to press his Amendment 2 to a Division.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful for all contributions on this first group. I appreciate the support from Members on my own side; it is always good for the Minister to know that there are a range of views and that people are thinking about the Bill and taking it seriously—it is a very serious Bill.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, mentioned the welfare of seafarers. He is absolutely right and there are mechanisms, which the UK is deeply embedded in and has been for a very long time, which work internationally, as many noble Lords will know, to try to improve the conditions and pay of seafarers. However, that is not under discussion today. As pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, this is an important part of the nine-point plan that Ministers set out earlier in the year, but the Bill is narrow in scope and effect. That is for many reasons but a key one is that we have to be mindful of the extent to which we are legislating; we have to be mindful that we do not overreach, because that might have some very serious unintended consequences that we would later regret. That is why, throughout the drafting of the Bill, we have had at the front of our minds not only international law but our international obligations; that is critical. Although I accept that there are many things that noble Lords would very much like to do for seafarers—and that, probably, on the face of it, I would like to do too —the reality is that, as a Government, we have to be sensible and potentially a bit boring. We must stay in our lane and make sure that we do not overreach, because the consequences would be very significant.

There are two amendments in this group. The first brings back the old chestnut of “the harbour” versus “a harbour”. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for enabling that discussion once more. I cannot go much further than I went in Committee; I just state that it is absolutely important that unless we say “the harbour”, we cannot define what a service is. A service is from one point—the point—to another point. It is of great regret that the word “a” crept into the letter, but noble Lords can imagine that that was the overarching ambition: from a point overseas to a point in the UK, but “the harbour” within a place overseas and a place in the UK. Because we have defined it that way, from “the harbour” to “the harbour”, we capture the high-frequency services that, let us recall, can be serviced by any vessel—you can put another vessel in when one is off being maintained or whatever—but it is always between two specified harbours.

The second part of that definition—the harbour to the harbour—that is very important is

“120 occasions in the year”.

That, essentially, defines a service that has close ties. The second point about this is that unless you define it as “the harbour” to “the harbour”, it would be incredibly difficult to enforce the Bill, because the Bill relies on one harbour authority being responsible for monitoring and enforcement. Individual harbours may be able to anticipate that a particular service will call in its harbour 120 times a year, perhaps because that service has been doing so for years, if not decades. That harbour authority may not be able to anticipate whether a particular operator has services to other ports, so how would the enforcement and monitoring work in those circumstances?

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, brought up an example about, I think, a former Transport Secretary and ships that could be brought in to operate services, but he reinforced the point I am trying to make: it is not about the ships or the specific seafarers on a particular service; it is the service itself that we must make sure falls within the Bill’s scope.

I am content that we have defined the scope well. I am a little disappointed that I have not given sufficient explanation such that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, is content, but I feel that we are there and have clarified exactly what would happen. In response to concerns raised about services suddenly deciding to go to another port so that they do not have to pay seafarers a fair wage, as I said in Committee, I do not think that would be commercially viable. I do not think operators would play switcheroo with UK ports because, frankly, their customers would not put up with it. I do not think that point works.

I hope the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment to change “the harbour” to “a harbour”. It would make the entire Bill not worth the paper it is written on, and it would not function in the way that I know the noble Lord wants it to function.

I turn now to Amendment 2, which seeks to decrease the threshold frequency from 120 times a year to 52. The figure of 120 was arrived at following very thorough and extensive consultation and bilateral discussions with industry and other stakeholders. We have looked incredibly carefully at the patterns of services, noted by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and at maritime traffic data by type to reach the figure in the Bill. The scope of the Bill captures services calling 120 times a year on purpose. It is a very specific number that balances the need to maintain close ties with wanting to do the very best we can for seafarers.

The rationale is clear. It covers the vast majority of passenger ferries, including ro-pax, non-passenger ferries and ro-ro services calling at the UK. Critically, it focuses the Bill on short sea services, which justifies the connection to the UK and therefore the UK-equivalent level protection of pay. We do not want to bring into scope some of the high-frequency deep sea container services. That would not be our intention at all and, as my noble friend Lord Forsyth mentioned, would completely change the scope of the Bill and would go against the Government’s intention.

For the UK to impose pay requirements for seafarers on foreign-flagged ships that call at its ports only once week would risk being seen as an overreach by international partners. It would weaken the justification for the UK taking legislative action. As my noble friend Lord Forsyth said, we must tread with care. I appreciate that the noble Lord’s intention is to protect as many seafarers as possible, but the Government can justifiably legislate only for those with close ties to the UK. To seek to do more could risk making the Bill inoperable and could damage the UK’s reputation internationally.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate and to the Minister for her reply. To some extent, these issues were discussed in Committee and many of us suggested to the Minister that there were questions, which the Chamber of Shipping has clearly raised with other noble Lords, about the legality of this from an international shipping point of view. The Minister convinced us—well, she said there was no problem and she thought it would be all right and within scope. The only difference, therefore, is how many times a service goes into a port before it ceases to cause an international problem? I do not know the answer to that, but I cannot believe that, if it is all right to have 120 visits a year, it is somehow illegal to have 52.

The noble Baroness also raised the question of foreign-flag ships. I thought we had established that it applied to any ship, regardless of what flag, so I do not think the foreign flag comes into it at all.

I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Hendy for setting out in more detail what the RMT has sent us, but seafarers who are operating on a service where the cook gets paid £2 an hour might look askance at sea- farers who are getting the national minimum wage because they happen to be going on a short sea crossing where P&O had caused some problems earlier this year. It does not seem logical to me.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

3: Clause 3, page 2, line 17, leave out paragraph (a)
Member’s explanatory statement
In response to the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in relation to the Bill, this amendment removes a power to restrict the circumstances in which national minimum wage equivalence declarations may be requested.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, the thrust of the amendments in this group is to consider the delegated powers in the Bill. I will speak to the first amendment, in my name, and return to the remainder when I have heard contributions from noble Lords. Amendment 3 addresses a concern raised in the report by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, the DPRRC. The amendment removes the power in Clause 3(4)(a) to make regulations that make provision restricting the circumstances in which harbour authorities may request that operators of shipping services provide national minimum wage equivalence declarations.

After reflecting on the comments of the committee, and representations made by noble Lords on this point in Committee, I agree that the power as drafted could have been exercised in a way that had broad effect to amend the application of the Bill, with limited parliamentary scrutiny. That had not been the intention of the clause when it was included, but, after some consideration, the Government are satisfied that the removal of this power would not have any impact on the operability or policy intention of the Bill. I beg to move.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I stand to speak to the amendments in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Scott: Amendments 6, 7, 8 and 9 in this group. We are pleased to see that the Minister has responded to comments from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, and that her amendment addresses some of the issues that it was concerned about. Our amendments also address their comments, and the Government do not seem to have taken all of the committee’s comments on board. That concerns us.

Clause 11 gives the Secretary of State power to give directions to harbour authorities, requiring them to do—or not to do—a number of things. The DPRRC concluded that this was

“a completely open-ended power”

and pointed out that this could modify the whole Bill by directions which are not subject to any form of parliamentary scrutiny. The Government accepted this argument in relation to Clause 3 and put in an amendment, so my question is this: why is the same principle not applicable to Clause 11? I made the point earlier this afternoon that the Bill is, in my view, poorly constructed. I genuinely think that it is quite possibly an error, rather than a considered decision by the Government, that has led to their failure to rectify Clause 11, because there is no logic to making the effort with Clause 3 but not making the effort with Clause 11.

As the Bill stands, the Government are hiding behind harbour authorities by expecting them to do the enforcement work. I understand the points the Minister made in the various debates in that regard, but at the same time the Government want to retain all the ultimate power. That is not satisfactory. It overrides Parliament’s role and parliamentary democracy. It is an abuse of government power and it is bad law.

So my question to the Minister is: will the Government consider responding to and taking on board the rest of the DPRRC’s comments and, at a very late stage—at the last moment—ensuring that there are amendments in line with its comments? If she feels that the Government really cannot do that, will she give an undertaking in this House that they will not depart from the Bill’s basic script and intention—because there is a fear that that could happen, given the very wide-ranging power they are giving themselves in the Bill?

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[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for Amendment 3. Moving on to Amendments 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10, I am more sympathetic with the Government than any of the previous speakers. These sorts of powers are necessary. Arguably, the way pressure is put on harbours to do the right thing is wrong, but it is the way the drafters of the Bill have chosen.

I wish the Government would get back to the tradition of doing what the DPRRC says, which way back, when I sat on those Benches, we did. However, none of those things will probably happen and, certainly, I do not feel it is an issue over which we would support dividing the House. I would, however, recommend that the Minister allay some of the fears that these clauses have provoked, by reading into the record the statement made to the DPRRC on 25 October, particularly, from the bottom of the page in the report:

“The policy intention is that this power would only be used in the following circumstances”


and all those circumstances, to the end of that document. In the best Pepper v Hart frame, the world would then have easy access to those limitations, much improving the likelihood of the Government sticking to those limitations. Of course, if she wants to amend the document more fully, I would not be averse to her bringing this back at Third Reading. However, I can tell from her demeanour there is not a prayer of that, so would she agree to putting those assurances into the record?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will indeed take option A from the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. I accept that we do not want our powers to be overreaching. I believe there is a good justification for these powers, and I will happily read into the record the circumstances in which the Government believe it would be justified to use these powers.

I will quickly address the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. I do not believe he will press it to a vote because it would remove all of Clause 11 and then it would remove the guidance for the harbour authorities, so it would be incredibly messy.

Let us focus on the second element of the concerns from the DPRRC. We have very carefully reflected on its recommendations. We have looked very carefully at the powers of direction for the Secretary of State in Clause 11. We have concluded that to remove them would significantly reduce the effectiveness of the Bill. These powers of direction form an important part of the compliance mechanism under the Bill. Without that power of direction given to the Secretary of State, there will be no means of correction if the harbour authorities do not exercise their powers under the Bill, or if they exercise their powers inappropriately. Given that noble Lords have raised concerns about potential conflicts of interest between harbour authorities’ commercial interests and statutory functions, these powers also provide a safeguard against this risk. I assure noble Lords that the power is not intended to have general effect to allow the Secretary of State simultaneously to direct all harbour authorities to exercise or not to exercise their powers under the Bill, or to exercise them in a particular way. Nor is it intended to modify the character of the Bill itself by means of direction.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, there is quite a good case for the noble Baroness’s amendment, but I accept that the Government have, I hope, expended an awful lot of effort working through the intricacies of how this will happen. I fear that passing the amendment at this point would unduly stop this extremely important Bill’s progress. I hope that the Government’s judgment is correct, and that they come back very rapidly with emergency legislation if it proves to be incorrect.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, the amendment in this group in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, relates to the refusal of access. The refusal of access is one way in which we establish the provision of national minimum wage declarations as a condition of access to ports. If this were replaced by a power of detention by the MCA, this would become a punitive measure and go beyond the voluntary mechanism envisaged by the Bill. Detention of vessels is a disproportionate and inappropriate mechanism in these circumstances. Detention of ships can also carry a significant cost to the port by blocking a berth, which is not the case if they are refused access.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, has previously expressed concerns that refusal of access is unworkable as it might result in ships mid-passage being unable to dock, but this is not how the Bill will work in practice. By virtue of the high-frequency requirement, all services captured are almost certain to be on short routes, and access refusal would take place before a ship has set sail from the origin port. As set out under Clause 9, we will set out in detail in the regulations how the harbour authority is to communicate refusal of access, which will ensure that sufficient notice is given to prevent this possibility happening and to provide notice for users of the service to make alternative arrangements. We will of course be consulting closely with the ports on these draft regulations.

As an additional safeguard, the Secretary of State has a power to direct the harbour authority as to how or whether it discharges its power to refuse access, which will ensure that access is not denied where it would cause damage by disrupting key passenger services and supply chains critical for national resilience.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister but I have a quick question. She said in reply to the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, who moved this amendment, that if the amendment were accepted it would cause a significant cost to the port. If there is significant cost to the port in Dover by this not happening, what about the cost to the port in Calais, or do we not worry about that because it is foreign? It is the same issue, just at the other end of the route.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. It would be costly to the ports and disruptive to passengers.

[Baroness Scott of Needham Market (LD)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that reply, which was not wholly unexpected. I happen to think that the Government are wrong. Being an optimist at heart, I still hope that, by the time this gets to the Commons, there will have been an outbreak of reality and that we might come up with something different, in not just this but other parts of the Bill. If not, then the next amendment that we come to discuss, which is about monitoring, will be really important. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, I will say a couple of words. This clause is a typical “Let’s have a review” clause. In 90 days, it could do nothing at all, of course, because by the time the Act has commenced nothing at all will have happened. We have a failing in this House, and in legislature generally, that we tend to pass Acts and then forget them; they just pass away into the distance. I would welcome it if the Minister could give us some assurance that there will be monitoring of this Act and that we will be looking to see where it goes.

A subject such as this seems to be an ideal one for an inquiry in about a year’s time as to how the Act has affected the industry. I suspect that it will have very little effect on pensions, for instance, and we might well wish to look at a stronger charter overall. Could the Minister assure us that her department will keep this under review? Perhaps some noble Lords could decide in time that it might be a subject that should be looked at by a special committee of this House.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, this final group contains one amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. I have listened very carefully to what the noble Lord had to say and to all noble Lords who participated in this debate.

In my response I will have bad news and then good news. First, I will address why the amendment as it stands is not appropriate. As my noble friend Lord Balfe pointed out, I am afraid that after 90 days, to coin a phrase, nothing will have changed. There will not be regulations in place, the guidance will not be in place and there will be little, if anything, actually to report on. Therefore, the fundamental premise of having a report in 90 days will, unfortunately, not achieve what the noble Lord is looking for.

Looking at the detail of the amendment, proposed new subsection (2)(a) goes back to the point that my noble friend Lord Balfe made. It is true that we pass laws but we do not forget about them; there is always the process of the post-implementation review, but we would have to wait five years for that. I accept that that is a long way away and possibly not ideal, but it would cover pensions and pay. I will retain the position that to cover rostering would be a challenge because there are many different impacts on rostering. It may be that we can decouple them but I would not want to make that commitment now.

Proposed new subsection (2)(b) goes beyond the implementation and monitoring of the Bill. I understand that noble Lords wish to probe the UK Government’s plans for legislation, but I cannot say that we currently have plans to legislate further than is necessary. I have already noted that we must tread with caution, but we are already taking action on the areas beyond the matter of minimum pay, which, as I think noble Lords will all agree—indeed, as I agree—is not the only aspect of seafarer welfare that requires attention.

Noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, mentioned the seafarers’ charter; I will get an update for him on where we are with it. In government terms, if the latest version was published in August, that is not as bad as I feared; I thought the noble Lord might have said April. But I will provide a written update afterwards on where we are and what the next steps are, because that is incredibly important.

Turning to proposed new subsection (2)(c), we always engage with the unions and recognise the importance of doing so. We have discussed the Bill with the unions. I do not feel that a written strategy of union engagement would be helpful; it would not be flexible enough and may miss things or include things that are no longer appropriate, and it would mean that we would be too constrained. I am absolutely sure that noble Lords would be the first people to write to me if they felt that unions were somehow being cut out of discussions.

Proposed new subsection 2(d) refers to

“a strategy for monitoring the implementation of”

bilateral wage corridors. Again, I appreciate the noble Lord’s interest in this important area and we are working hard to seek agreements. However, publishing a strategy for the implementation of a bilateral wage corridor may in itself be counterproductive, as many noble Lords discussed in Committee. These corridors will be memorandums of understanding and backed up by domestic legislation in each country, so their implementation will be different in different countries. Proposed new subsection (2)(d) would be a step too far in the current circumstances.

On proposed new subsection (2)(e), we do not consider that the Bill’s proposals interfere with rights and obligations under international law, including the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, or UNCLOS. We therefore would not deem it necessary to state as much in the Bill.

In potentially better news, although I cannot commit to legislating for a report, I can reassure noble Lords that we are currently looking at governance structures to deliver Maritime 2050. Noble Lords will know about that very important document; it sets out the Government’s vision and ambitions for the future of the British maritime sector. This governance structure will include the delivery of the nine-point plan. Furthermore, the Government are planning annual joint industry and government progress reports—it is almost as though my noble friend Lord Balfe read my notes beforehand. Every year we will have an annual joint report between the industry and government. It will include progress on the nine-point plan, implementation of the Bill, the seafarers’ charter and an update on bilateral wage corridor negotiations. I feel that is pretty much what noble Lords are looking for. On the basis of this reassurance, I hope the noble Lord feels content to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

I almost feel that the noble Baroness totally agrees with me but not quite enough. The amendment is meant to be helpful—it is helpful. I note that she more or less said that virtually everything in the amendment was right. I just want this in the Bill, so I feel that I have to divide the House on this point.

Airports Slot Allocation (Alleviation of Usage Requirements) (No. 3) Regulations 2022

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 20 July be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 25 October.

Relevant document: 11th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, with your Lordships’ permission, may I ask the Minister whether these restrictions mean that the need for slots for most aircraft also applies to the very smallest aircraft operating through Heathrow and Gatwick, for which this is sometimes regarded as an excessive restriction?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for raising the issue of small aircraft. I know he has a great interest in the matter. I will have to write to him about whether it applies to private jets and other small aircraft. The instrument that we debated in Grand Committee very much covered the slots held by the large commercial airlines.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, before the House agrees these regulations, will the Minister tell us whether the Government expect limits to be placed on the number of passengers able to use Heathrow over Christmas?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

We are aware that the current passenger cap at Heathrow of 100,000 passengers will be removed very shortly—indeed, I think it is this weekend. I believe that no decision has been taken on the Christmas period. However, significant numbers of staff have been recruited by Heathrow, so on balance I expect that it will not return, but that would be an operational decision for Heathrow.

Motion agreed.

Avanti West Coast Contract Renewal

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government take the performance of Avanti very seriously. We are looking at the performance metrics and working with it on its recovery plan. As noble Lords will know, any award is published in line with Section 26(1) of the Railways Act franchising policy statement. There is also an independent process to assess whether performance targets have been met. We are very focused on working with Avanti to pull it out of this period of poor performance and on to the sunlit uplands of fulfilling the needs of its passengers. From the next timetable change in December, Avanti will go from 180 daily services to 264—a massive step change. Everybody will notice the trains are back. We need to make sure that they are reliable, but I absolutely appreciate that at this current time the service is not good enough.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, Avanti has run only 40% of the services out of Euston that its predecessor ran. The Government’s Answer to this Question refers to Covid as a cause of the problem, but other operators do not seem to have had the same problem with training—GWR, for example. The truth is that bad management has undermined staff goodwill and the Government have rewarded failure in this decision. Will the Minister explain why Avanti has reduced its service but has been rewarded with the same £6 million fee? If the excuse is that it is in the contract, why are the contracts so badly written that the Government could not reduce that fee?

Secondly, it is almost impossible for the poor souls forced to travel on these trains to buy advance tickets. They have to buy on the day, and it costs more as a result. This is a con. Will the Minister intervene on this issue and ensure that the prices are adjusted appropriately if no advance tickets are available?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, there were several questions there, but I hope to get through as many as possible. There is a well-worn path which involves independent adjudication for contracting and that is utterly necessary. We do not want contracts in the whim of Ministers, because on either side of that debate, it could end up with very poor outcomes. Contracts must be assessed properly and there are legal and contractual processes to be gone through. It is absolutely true that Avanti is on probation. It has the six-month extension for a reason, and we will be watching it like a hawk. Obviously, its performance will be measured by the independent adjudicators.

What we tried to do over the summer period—as we tried in the aviation sector—was to ensure that we had reliability. If you have good communications and a robust timetable, at least people who do have a train ticket can turn up and actually get their train, which brings me to the advance ticketing issue.

I am pleased to say that it is now possible to get advance tickets on weekdays until 13 January and on weekends up to four weeks from 7 November. It is shorter at weekends, because travel is sometimes disrupted by engineering works.

I am aware that I have not covered the Covid issue, but I might come back to that in subsequent questions.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chairman of Transport for the North. I think the Government fully accept that at the moment the service that Avanti is offering is basically not acceptable. I am very pleased that extra pressure is being put on Avanti by the Government, but there is no quick, easy solution to this, because of the problems of driver training. I am pleased that another 100 drivers will be trained in the next few months. However, there is growing concern, not only about Avanti but about TransPennine services. Will my noble friend relay to the Secretary of State the very deep concern across the whole House and across the north about the poor service which they are currently getting?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will certainly relay that concern to the new Secretary of State. I am very grateful to my noble friend for raising TransPennine Express, because that is a very similar situation. It goes back to Covid, the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, was trying to get me on to. TransPennine Express is having the same issues as Avanti—actually, it is slightly earlier in its journey, so at least the Government will have had experience with Avanti when trying to get TransPennine Express through. It has had higher than average sickness among train crew, high levels of drivers leaving and reduced training. It has also had the loss of driver rest-day working because ASLEF decided not to extend or renew the rest-day working agreement that has expired. There is a theme here. The Government will work with Avanti and TransPennine Express. I encourage all noble Lords on the other side of the House to work with the unions to reach an agreement on getting these services up and running.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

Will the Minister accept that her responses stretch credulity, to say the least? As recently as July this year, in response to a Question from me, she acknowledged that Avanti’s performance was “terrible”. Since then, it has had a contract extension and, for no accountable reason, a £4 million bonus for customer service. Is she aware of the misery that regular travellers on the west coast main line have to put up with daily from this incompetent outfit? What will it take for the Government to do their job and relieve Avanti of any responsibility for being involved in our railway system ever again?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am pretty sure that Avanti has not received a performance bonus of £4 million for providing services in the current period—if I am wrong, I will of course correct the record. I should like to be a bit pragmatic about all this, because we have to look at the alternative. The alternative would be to send in OLR—obviously there would be legal and contractual processes to go through—but what would OLR do? It does not have train drivers up its sleeve. The issues are the lack of train drivers and the rest-day working agreement not being adhered to, and those issues would remain. We understand what the problems are. We are getting the drivers trained and into the trains, and services are going from 180 to 164. I hope that the next time I speak to the noble Lord, Lord Snape, he will be at least a little more content than he is now, because I do want to make him happy. We all want Avanti to succeed.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

I declare an interest as one of the seething passengers: my train from Crewe this morning took one and a half hours longer than it should have. Can the noble Baroness say whether the independent adjudicator will take evidence from individual passengers, because I would be very happy to send some to it? Your Lordships’ finance department knows very well the number of delay repays that have gone back to my travelcard because of the delays on Avanti trains over the last six months. If Italian state railways can work on time, why cannot ours?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I suggest that we convene a meeting with the Rail Minister—I am not the Rail Minister—which may be a better idea than shouting at an adjudicator. Perhaps noble Lords could join me in that meeting. We can discuss Avanti and TPE, and we might be able to touch on reform and how we are going to take the railways forward. I am very happy to sort that out; perhaps a bit of face-to-face discussion with the Minister would be appreciated.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Can the Minister guarantee that this is the last rail franchise extension for Avanti? That would be good to know. Also, will all the legislation for Great British Railways come through before the end of this Parliament?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I cannot give a guarantee on the first question, because Avanti is on probation, as I said. Let us be clear: there is a recovery plan, which has been reviewed by the ORR and Network Rail’s programme management office. It could be that that recovery plan comes into place and, in a few months’ time, everybody is content with the performance, so I shall say no more than that. On the legislation for Great British Railways, we are working as hard as we can to find parliamentary time for it, and in the meantime are doing everything that does not need legislation—important elements that will take us towards a modern, seven-day railway.

Great British Railways

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 25th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, we have universal agreement that the railways are in a chaotic mess. Great British Railways was supposed to be the answer. Why is it being delayed? Particularly, why has progress on the rail network enhancement pipeline been stalled, and when will the location of the Great British Railways headquarters be announced—or is this to be delayed indefinitely?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the challenges facing our nation’s railways were very clearly set out—some years ago now—in the Plan for Rail. These challenges have been exacerbated by subsequent events, namely Covid, macroeconomic headwinds, and some challenges with industrial relations.

The Government remain committed to modernising our railways and transforming the industry. At its heart will be a focus on passengers. The consultation on Great British Railways and other reforms closed on 4 August. We had 2,500 very good responses. We will be working through that feedback to help us shape the way forward with Great British Railways.

The Government have invested and will continue to invest billions of pounds. On the RNEP specifically, we know that the use of the railways has changed. There has been a shift away from commuting and towards leisure. Where we invest taxpayers’ money must reflect that. We are looking at the RNEP and will have it published shortly.

Finally, I am hoping that there will be an announcement shortly on the location of the Great British Railways headquarters.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the state of our railways is a national embarrassment. Yet the withdrawal of this Bill is evidence that the Government are not prioritising them. Meanwhile, the tables of the Royal Gallery are littered with Bills that reflect the extremes of Conservative ideology and are of no practical use or value to ordinary, hard-pressed citizens. Will the Minister take the opportunity presented by a new Prime Minister this week to press the case again for the inclusion of this Bill in his new list of priorities? While she has his ear, will she press him to ensure that railway fares do not go up in line with inflation next year, as this would be a bitter blow to commuters?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I cannot agree that those Bills are no good to anybody. I think that the Energy Prices Bill will be warmly welcomed by consumers across the country.

Some legislation is needed for rail reform. However, it should also be noted that we can deliver an enormous amount of what we have promised without legislation. These are things such as workforce reform, increasing competition within the system, improving the ticketing system, starting local partnerships, and, most importantly, the long-term strategy for rail. This will set out the 30-year vision that will be taken forward by Great British Railways. We are making good progress and will bring the legislation forward as parliamentary time allows.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, for years I have used the east coast main line, at present run by LNER. Will the Minister join me in congratulating LNER on improving services? It is very efficient now after the pandemic—which was a difficult period, obviously, but it is back to optimum efficiency. A lot of it is due to the pleasant nature of, and service provided by, the staff, and, of course, an improved menu. LNER is of course run by the Department for Transport. Does this not provide fairly solid evidence and clear proof that a railway can operate efficiently while publicly owned?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord that staff are absolutely key. We have some very hard-working staff across the system. We need to ensure that those staff are in place to serve passengers where they are absolutely needed. It is the case there are some very outdated workforce practices within the railway system, which need to be upgraded so that we can offer a modern, seven day a week service. However, I say to the noble Lord that it is about simplification of the system, not nationalisation.

[Lord Palmer (CB)]

My Lords, I have been travelling up and down the east coast main line for 71 years, and I would like to place on record how incredibly helpful, polite and nice all the staff are, whether it be actually in Scotland or in England. They deserve a serious clap on the back.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I completely agree with the noble Lord.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, further to my noble friend’s reply, while understanding the reason for postponing the legislation, can she confirm that it will not stop worthwhile reform, such as simplifying ticketing, introducing more e-tickets, replacing diesel trains on branch lines with battery electric trains and other steps such as providing more real-time information about trains?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I can absolutely assure my noble friend that the Government are hard at work with the train operating companies, Network Rail and everybody in the railway industry to make sure that as much progress that can be made is being made. For example, the accessibility audit of all railway stations is now well under way and should yield really good results for accessibility in the future.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware from previous questions of the considerable concern about the service between Euston and Holyhead. Members of all parties in another place have raised it on a number of occasions. Given the seriousness of the position, which is that what used to be eight through trains a day is now down to one, what is the Minister doing about this? She has recognised the problem. Has she taken any action?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Yes, I do recognise the problem. We absolutely have taken action. We have daily meetings with the train operating company. It has put together a recovery plan, which has been reviewed by the ORR and Network Rail’s programme management office. There will be a very significant step change in the timetable in December, because 100 newly trained train drivers are going to be fully deployed by December. So early December will be the next change in the timetable, and we expect significant improvements to services to Wales and elsewhere at that time.

[Baroness Taylor of Bolton (Lab)]

Today there are 44 cancellations on the TransPennine Express. What do the Government intend to do about that?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am aware that the TransPennine Express is suffering a significant number of cancellations at the moment. The Government are working very closely with the train operating company. There are many factors which are contributing to those cancellations, but I agree that they are unacceptable. We are working closely with the train operating company to resolve them where we can.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chairman of Transport for the North. A number of people find the announcement of the delay in the Bill very disappointing, as the Williams report was commissioned in 2018 and reported in 2021. Will my noble friend confirm that the work that is already being done at the department will carry on at pace? There is a guiding mind at the moment for the railways; it is the Treasury. Can we get away from the fact as soon as possible that the only guiding mind at the moment is the Treasury, not the Department for Transport?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend will be aware that the guiding mind for the railways now is the Great British Railways transition team, which is focusing on all the reforms that we want to put in place. I accept that there will be some disappointment about the delay to the Bill. However, as I have previously outlined, it does not mean that work in the department has slowed down at all. We have a very energetic rail Minister, and I know that he will be taking forward these things at pace.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister referred two or three times to accessibility during her responses. While the new passenger assistance app is extremely helpful, it still does not have any functionality to buy tickets. When booking assistance, I have to actually book a seat that I cannot use when I buy my ticket elsewhere. When will this be resolved? All disabled groups ask for it to happen with the app.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for raising that with me. I will take that back to the department. I know that there is a significant amount of work going on in relation to how online ticketing works. Clearly, it has to work with the accessibility app, and I will make sure that we take that up and see what we can do.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Young, made some very good suggestions today—although he is one of the guilty men responsible for the privatisation of the railways, which has caused most of the trouble. The Minister gave replies today that were very similar to replies that she gave to the noble Lord, Lord Young, and others weeks ago and months ago, and yet nothing is happening. When are we going to get away from the position that she says something here, but nothing actually happens on the ground? Will she and her colleagues go out and actually travel on the trains for once?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will do that if the noble Lord stops pointing at me. The reality is that an enormous amount has actually happened. It takes time to put these things in place. There are two main issues when it comes to Avanti, for example. The first is the massive shortage of fully trained drivers, which was exacerbated by the need to stop training during the Covid period. As I mentioned, 100 drivers have now come through the system. However, the number one thing that would really help to restore services on Avanti is better co-operation from the trade unions.

Doncaster Sheffield Airport

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 25th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

The Government have had several—actually 13—ministerial-level meetings since towards the end of July. The Transport Secretary, for example, met Mayor Oliver Coppard from SYMCA on 22 September and Mayor Jones from Doncaster County Council. She has also spoken to Peel Group twice. I have spoken to Peel Group, to 2Excel, to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, who I see is in his place, and to local MPs. The reality is that my officials are in constant contact with all the relevant parties. If I feel that I can help further, I certainly will. On using the Civil Contingencies Act, we looked very closely at it, and it has a very high bar. I should note to noble Lords that, despite all the emergencies we have had in this country since the Act was passed 20-odd years ago, Part 2 of that Act has never been used: no emergency has managed to reach that high bar. We did look at it and we have challenged ourselves to ensure that the contingency plan is in place. Those tenants who will be leaving DSA are robust, and therefore their contracts can continue.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, many local airports have been in trouble since Covid. However, this airport is of great strategic significance. It has one of the longest runways in the UK, it is the home of the national coastguard operations, and it is the base for the National Police Air Service. This is, therefore, of very great national significance, not a little local difficulty. Will the Minister therefore undertake to treat this as a problem of national significance, and does she agree that the Government need to provide tangible support—not just warm words—for local representatives?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government do not own or operate airports; local authorities and devolved Administrations do—for example, Manchester, Birmingham, Luton and Teesside. We very much feel that, if there is a local solution to be had, it will come from local knowledge, from those local authorities. For reassurance, I have spoken to 2Excel about its contingency plans, which wrote to the former Prime Minister setting out that it would be able to continue with its work, and the Home Office is content that the NPAS will also be able to continue its work. While we are deeply disappointed by Peel’s decision, I have strongly urged the group to engage with all interested parties should a commercial solution be available.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

My Lords, the National Police Air Service’s entire fixed-wing aircraft fleet is based at Doncaster Sheffield Airport. The fixed-wing element of the UK’s life-saving search and rescue service is based at Doncaster Sheffield Airport. The Maritime and Coastguard Agency has aircraft on-call there 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. Peel will close the airport within two or three weeks from today. The consequence is that 2Excel will move all of these and the engineering facilities to what it describes as “boltholes” spread across the United Kingdom. What assessment has the Department for Transport made of the extent to which services will be disrupted or degraded permanently as a result? What effect will that have on the risk to life, particularly as we go into the winter? What steps is the Department for Transport taking to ensure that there is no danger to life in those circumstances?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble and learned Lord will know from when he encouraged me—fairly robustly, I might add—to look at the CCA regarding this issue, we have been in touch with 2Excel. I have spoken to the company myself, and it is fair to say that it feels quite aggrieved at the way it has been treated by Peel. I have to say that I have some sympathy with that. Peel has publicly stated that it will work to minimise disruption to its tenants; I very much hope that it will honour what it has said, rather than leaving it to the courts to wrangle over the leases, which will be brought to an end early. We have spoken to 2Excel and have had written confirmation that the contracts in place for search and rescue for the Maritime and Coastguard Agency will not be impacted. As I said previously, I have also had assurance from the Home Office that NPAS will also be able to function.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, associated with Doncaster Sheffield Airport has been a huge amount of public funding of infrastructure such as roads. Are the Government going to make any attempt to recover some of those funds from the Peel Group? We went through the same cycle with what was Sheffield Airport, when a huge amount of public money went in and then Peel Group pulled out. Will the Government ensure that the future use of that infrastructure and, indeed, the airport will support small and medium-sized enterprises, co-operatives and genuine prosperity in the local community?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Regarding the infrastructure that was put in around Doncaster Airport, such as roads, I have travelled along a road there, which was fairly new and of incredibly high quality. It was of course put there to support the airport and to enable passengers and workers to get to and from the airport, but it should be said that Peel Group invests for the long term. I do not know what its plans are for the longer-term site at Doncaster Airport, should it eventually no longer be used as an airport. However, it is a prime, very large site in an area with a significant number of people who would have the skills to develop various businesses there. I anticipate that any infrastructure that has been put in would be utilised by whatever takes place at the airport.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, as Members of this House may know, I very seldom, if ever, praise the Scottish Government. However, in the case of Prestwick Airport they have done the right thing and for the right reasons. It seems to be very similar to Doncaster Sheffield Airport. Prestwick has a very long runway, and it has a search and rescue facility—the parallels are amazing. Will the Minister therefore give one clear assurance today: that she and her colleagues will have a word with the Scottish Government and look at what they have done to keep Prestwick Airport? The father of the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, and I did a lot to protect it way back in the 1970s and 1980s. Will the Minister please talk to Ministers in Scotland and see if the United Kingdom Government can follow their example in respect of Doncaster Sheffield Airport?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I said at the outset, it is not unusual for the devolved Administrations or local authorities to take stakes in or have interests in airports, and some of them have been incredibly successful. It is pleasing to see that Prestwick is now successful; there was a time when it was not. Certainly, Manchester and Luton have recovered from the pandemic particularly well. As I said previously, the Government do not own or operate airports and will not be stepping in with UK taxpayers’ money in these circumstances.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, can the Minister explain how the closure of Doncaster Sheffield Airport, in an area that desperately needs investment, contributes to the Government’s growth plan?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The question is more relevant to regional connectivity, which is absolutely key for growth. As we set out in our 10-year strategic framework for aviation, we are very much focused on regional connectivity. Anybody who knows the geography of the area around Doncaster Sheffield Airport knows that it is not the only airport in the area. Other airports are easily accessible from many of the places around there, so it has quite a limited, unique catchment area, which may have contributed to Peel’s decision that it was not viable in the medium term. I understand that other consultants have looked at it, potentially, for the local authorities and reached the same conclusion.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned that Doncaster has a very long runway, and my noble friend said that it was like Prestwick’s. Manston in Kent has an equally long runway, or maybe longer, and so does Newquay in Cornwall. Newquay is being used by Virgin to get the first rocket into space, I believe. Do the Government think that long runways are important, or are they quite happy for all these to be sold because we have short take-off and landing and do not need long runways any more?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Of course, they do not get sold. These runways are in private hands or the hands of local authorities. I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising the issue of Newquay. It just goes to show what airports can do. By adding a spaceport to the airport, it is broadening its revenues and looking to the future. The Government very much hope that the launch of the Virgin Orbit rocket will take place as soon as possible.

Airports Slot Allocation (Alleviation of Usage Requirements) (No. 3) Regulations 2022

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 25th October 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Airports Slot Allocation (Alleviation of Usage Requirements) (No. 3) Regulations 2022.

Relevant document: 11th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, these draft regulations will be made under powers conferred by the Air Traffic Management and Unmanned Aircraft Act 2021, or ATMUA. Following our departure from the European Union, this legislation created a more flexible set of powers for Ministers to implement alleviation measures related to the impacts of Covid, subject to a vote in both Houses. This allows the Government to adopt a bespoke approach to best support the recovery of the aviation sector. Ordinarily, airlines must operate their airport slots 80% of the time to retain the right to them the following year. This is known at the 80:20 rule, or the “use it or lose it” rule. This encourages efficient use of scarce airport capacity.

This summer, we saw a promising recovery in passenger demand. It is welcome that so many people have been able to travel on business, visit family and friends or travel abroad for a much-deserved break. However, demand remains below pre-Covid levels, and this recovery has not been without its challenges. It is well known that the sector struggled to ramp up operations. This caused some disruption at airports in early summer, which abated as the summer progressed, supported by swift action from the Government.

We have designed a package of measures for the winter 2022 season that aims to balance the recovery of the sector with enabling airlines to plan deliverable schedules. When the pandemic struck, the 80:20 rule was fully waived to avoid environmentally damaging and financially costly flights with few or no passengers. We then offered generous alleviations for four seasons while travel restrictions remained and demand was uncertain. Last summer, we implemented a 70% usage ratio, reflecting the more positive outlook in demand. We provided additional alleviation during the summer season in response to the high levels of disruption at airports arising from the continuing impact of Covid-19.

As required by ATMUA, we have determined that there is a continued reduction in demand, which is likely to persist, and we consider further alleviation measures justified for the winter 2022 season, which runs from 30 October 2022 to 25 March 2023. On 20 July we therefore published this draft statutory instrument, setting out the package of measures we propose. This package was developed following consultation with industry and careful consideration of the responses.

The draft instrument being considered applies to England, Scotland and Wales. Aerodromes are a devolved matter in relation to Northern Ireland and, as there are currently no slot co-ordinated airports in Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Executive agreed that it was not necessary for the powers in the Act to extend to or apply in relation to Northern Ireland.

In this instrument, the Government have focused measures on encouraging the ongoing recovery in flight traffic while protecting connectivity to destinations where restrictions remain in place and minimising the risk of disruption at airports while the sector recovers. This includes retaining the 70:30 usage requirement, but the regulations also include a justified non-use provision, which provides alleviation for airlines flying in restricted markets.

For this winter, we have expanded the list of Covid-19 restrictions that airlines may use to justify not using slots if they severely reduce demand for the route or, indeed, its viability to include pre-departure testing requirements. Restrictions covered also include flight bans and quarantine or self-isolation requirements applied at either end of any particular route. As was the case for the summer 2022 season, this will apply whether or not the restrictions could reasonably have been foreseen to ensure that we are protecting carriers and markets with long-term restrictions in place.

There will be a three-week recovery period during which the justified non-use might still apply following the end of Covid-19 restrictions. We will also allow early application for justified non-use. By this, I mean where an official government announcement about the duration of restrictions gives rise to a reasonable expectation that they will still be in place on the date of operation of the slots. The carrier will then still be able to apply for justified non-use, otherwise it would have to reapply every three weeks. This allows earlier hand-back of slots so that other carriers can use them. It also removes some of the administrative burden.

In the winter 2021 season we allowed full series hand-back, whereby an airline could retain rights to a series of slots for the following year if it returned the series to the slot co-ordinator before the start of the season. For this winter season, we have included a more limited measure that allows the carriers to claim alleviation for up to 10% of their slots at any airport if they returned them to the slots co-ordinator for reallocation between 1 and 7 September this year.

All this is so that the aviation sector can plan its schedules and make sure that they are deliverable. We are currently considering whether further alleviation is likely to be justified and I will certainly listen very carefully to what noble Lords have to say. I beg to move.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her comments. Slot alleviation has become routine in the last couple of years. I have always accepted it as an important aspect of ensuring that we do not have unnecessary flights. “Half full” would be an overstatement; “almost empty” would be more accurate during Covid. However, I have got to the point where I question whether it is justified any longer in the current terms that the noble Baroness presents.

The Explanatory Note refers to an expansion of the list of reasons for slot alleviation, but that expansion is still in terms of Covid. Paragraph 7.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum refers to demand being at or around 80% to 85% of 2019 levels during May to July. Does the Minister now have access to figures for August and September?

The irony is that the reduction in demand over the summer was significantly affected by the cancellation of flights because airports instructed airlines not to fly, not because of Covid but because they did not have the ground-handling capacity. That happened at both Gatwick and Heathrow. The impact was, of course, to reduce the number of flights, but it also suppressed demand beyond those who thought that they had booked flights. I am sure we all know people who found that their flights were cancelled or deferred, and people who simply gave up trying to fly abroad as a result of the congestion at airports. There was suppressed demand over the summer, so the alleviation of slot rules could be said to be no longer appropriate for those reasons. It is time the Government reconsidered it, because it distorts the market.

Finally, I point out that there is no impact assessment for this. The grounds given for this are that it is for less than 12 months, but this has actually been going on for years, as the Minister pointed out in her explanation. I draw the Committee’s attention to the 12th report of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, Losing Impact: Why the Government’s Impact Assessment System Is Failing Parliament and the Public. At this stage, now that we appear to be through the immediate emergencies of Covid, it is important that the Government restore the standards they once had in legislation, in terms of impact assessments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate. I will start with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, about how we got to where we are. There is not a formula per se, but obviously consultation with the industry and other stakeholders was incredibly important. We also looked at detailed data on flights.

It is quite interesting speaking to airlines; I was speaking to one yesterday. They might say, “We’re back up to 100% and are doing brilliantly, thank you for asking”, because they fly the European routes, which have been open for a very long time and where the demand is back. However, we know that there is wide variation in the number of routes that can be flown at the moment. Some of the long-haul routes are still not open, particularly those to China, for example, and Japan has only recently opened up. In aggregate, the picture is looking much better for the airlines, but there are still some places that cannot be flown to, which, to my mind, means that maintaining 70:30 for at least the winter season is the right decision.

The noble Lord went on to ask whether we will be doing it in future. I am not sure; that is what we are doing right at this moment. I take heed of his words that we have to be very careful with slots. We must look at the things we have in our armoury. This 70:30 slot alleviation is potentially a very large hammer to crack a nut. We would potentially look again at justified non-use. Once we and other areas of the world are further out of the pandemic, what does justified non-use look like? It seems to me that it could be a better thing to use, because you want to try to protect some airlines from factors beyond their control. I cannot say where we will go in future. Do I think it will look exactly like this? I do not think so, but I am content with where we are at the moment and where we have got to in the proposals that we have set out.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, talked about demand being suppressed. Obviously, we have quite a lot of data on why demand is being suppressed. There is still a reluctance from some to come back to the skies, because of Covid. They do not particularly want to travel just yet. I agree with her that this summer did not do the aviation sector any favours: I have made the point to many people in the sector that there is a job of work to do on public perception. The sector should make sure that going on holiday, for example, is not a chore but a delight. Airports and travelling should be a delight; you want to join your airline going off to Corfu, or wherever, with the bar fully stocked and everything working. I am focusing on working with the industry on getting the industry working—not only airlines and the airports but third-party suppliers—and then making sure that we somehow get across to the travelling public that some of those terrible Daily Mail front pages from the beginning of last summer are no longer the case at all.

The noble Baroness expressed some doubt over whether the alleviation is needed for the winter season; I think I have managed to explain the Government’s position on that. The pandemic is quite far away in our rear view mirror but not in other parts of the world, some of which are the very valuable long-haul destinations. One would not necessarily want to disrupt the slots for them at this time.

I take the noble Baroness’s point about the impact assessment, although the Government stand by our position that it is for six months. Obviously, we put as much information as we possibly could in the impact assessment.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, is right about London Heathrow; it is proposing that the passenger cap comes off at the end of October. I warmly welcome that. Heathrow, like many other airports, is very reliant on third-party suppliers and, as the noble Lord knows, the Government are undertaking a review of ground handling. That is one of the unseen parts of the entire system and if it breaks down, everyone gets very cross because their luggage does not arrive—and quite rightly so. They blame the airline, the airline has contracted the ground handlers and the ground handlers do not really see the anger of the passengers, so there is a bit of work to be done there.

The noble Lord also brought up the question of alleviation at the other end. I had the same question. However, I am reassured—and airlines have not raised this with us—that different alleviation measures in different countries have not caused a problem, so that is not necessarily an issue we need to worry about.

Are we concerned if airlines consolidate at London Heathrow? Yes, I am, actually. I do not want airlines to consolidate at Heathrow unless they have no alternative. If they have slots at other airports, I should very much like them to stay in those other airports. The Government are very much committed to regional airports.

There are no ghost flights—or fewer than 1% in the second quarter of 2022, and they were not caused by slot rules. Because the alleviations have been in place for so long now, the system has managed to adjust to them. All being well, in future, we will have no ghost flights.

I have had quite a lot of deep dives into slots and slot reform, something the Government said we would look at in Flightpath to the Future. It is hugely complicated: there is the balance between wanting the industry to invest for the long term, competition and not, as the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, pointed out, upsetting the apple cart by doing things that have unintended consequences. We will be looking at that very carefully.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Jones, spoke about Cardiff. I am pleased to say that although the regulations cover Wales, Cardiff is not an airport with co-ordinated slots. It is not quite busy enough for there not to be enough slots. We now have to get more airlines flying into Cardiff, then it will have co-ordinated slots and any regulations will cover it. For the time being, however, it has enough slots to go around. I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Motion agreed.