Representation of the People (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2013
Baroness Randerson Excerpts(11 years, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Randerson
That the draft regulations and draft order laid before the House on 8 May be approved.
Relevant document: 1st Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 4 June.
Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2013
Baroness Randerson Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Baroness Randerson
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2013.
Relevant document: 1st Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)
My Lords, this order extends for a further two years the period during which trials without a jury can take place in certain circumstances in Northern Ireland. Without this order, the system allowing for non-jury trials would lapse on 31 July this year.
It is with regret that I propose that this system be renewed for a further two years, but I do so with the knowledge that there remains in Northern Ireland a serious threat from a small but dangerous minority. They have no mandate but seek to drag Northern Ireland back into the past. Their targets are police officers, soldiers and prison officers, but their attacks are felt by the wider community, many of whom face disruption on a daily basis.
The reckless murder of prison officer David Black, in November 2012, by a group referred to as the “new IRA” was an unwelcome reminder of the continuing threat posed by dissident republican terrorists. This new grouping primarily consists of members of the Real IRA, Republican Action Against Drugs, which conducts brutal shootings against nationalist members of the community, and a number of unaffiliated individuals, who we believe have connections to the fatal attack against Massereene barracks in 2009.
The Police Service of Northern Ireland and its counterpart in the Republic of Ireland, the AGS, continue to thwart the efforts of such groups. Across the island of Ireland, 173 arrests and 64 charges were made during 2012. There were also 18 convictions of individuals involved in planning and participating in attacks. So far this year, there have been 63 arrests, 32 charges and 18 seizures. Many more attacks have been thwarted and disrupted.
It is therefore vital that there are means available within the criminal justice system to allow the perpetrators of these attacks to be brought before the law. We must recognise that Northern Ireland is still unfortunately in a unique situation, and the non-jury trial provisions provide a unique solution to a small number of cases. Noble Lords will know that jury trials in Northern Ireland are not safe from disruption by those involved in terrorist activity. Public galleries are at times crowded with members of the public. The close-knit nature of society in Northern Ireland means that jurors are vulnerable to intimidation. This can result in, at best, a partisan verdict.
I thought it would be helpful if I outlined the processes involved in order to obtain a non-jury trial. The Director of Public Prosecutions issues a certificate which allows for one. The DPP can issue a certificate for a non-jury trial only if he believes that one or more of four statutory conditions, which are laid out in Section 1 of the Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007, are met. Condition 1 is that the defendant is, or is an associate of, a member of a proscribed organisation. Condition 2 is that the offence was committed on behalf of a proscribed organisation or that a proscribed organisation was involved. Condition 3 is that an attempt has been made by or on behalf of a proscribed organisation to prejudice the investigation or prosecution. Condition 4 is that the offence was committed as a result of, or in connection with, religious or political hostility.
Noble Lords will be aware that a proscribed organisation is one that is concerned with terrorism. It can also be seen that the four conditions relate specifically to the circumstances of the offence and the defendant. Furthermore, the DPP must be satisfied that there is a risk that the administration of justice might be impaired if a jury trial were to be held. There is a clear distinction here between this system and the previous Diplock court arrangements which were in place prior to the Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007. The Diplock system saw all scheduled offences tried by a judge alone. Today, there is a clear presumption that jury trial will take place in all cases. Certificates are issued only when absolutely necessary in the interests of the administration of justice and where the particular statutory tests are met.
Noble Lords will also wish to be aware that not all cases proceed to a non-jury trial. The PSNI holds no right to stipulate that a non-jury trial takes place, and the Director of Public Prosecutions acts with discretion and independence in deciding whether to issue a certificate. Hence the number of non-jury trials in Northern Ireland remains relatively low. So far, in 2013, the DPP has issued just eight certificates for non-jury trials and one request has been refused. In 2012, 25 certificates were issued and three were refused. However, while they are low, these figures are still significant and show the ongoing need for non-jury trial.
I know that this is now the third such renewal of these provisions and there is some concern about that. I am also aware that during the last renewal in 2011, noble Lords expressed concern about the limited consultation that was held at the time. I can, however, inform noble Lords that prior to taking a decision on the renewal of the provisions this time around, the Northern Ireland Office canvassed opinion from the main stakeholders linked to the operation of non-jury trials in Northern Ireland. This included the PSNI, the Department of Justice, the Northern Ireland Courts and Tribunals Service, the PPS in Northern Ireland and the Office of the Lord Chief Justice. The consensus among all of those stakeholders was that the present threat environment is not dissimilar to that surrounding the previous renewal and, as such, all were in favour of renewing the provisions as they currently stand.
The canvassing exercise did, however, inform the Secretary of State’s decision to hold a limited consultation again for the 2013 review. In reaching her final decision on whether to seek the renewal of the provisions, the Secretary of State then formally consulted with those who have direct involvement in the operation of the system, including members of the judiciary, the security forces, human rights groups and political representatives.
The noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, the Independent Reviewer of National Security Arrangements in Northern Ireland, who has previously scrutinised the non-jury trial system, concluded that trials are not safe from disruption and recommended renewal of the provisions for a further two years. The Attorney-General, in his capacity as Advocate-General for Northern Ireland, also agreed that in view of the current circumstances a further two-year extension should be sought.
Although there was some limited opposition to renewal, the overwhelming response from the consultation acknowledged that the security situation in Northern Ireland rendered the provisions necessary, at least for a further two years. I can assure noble Lords that the Government do want to see a return to full jury trial in all cases in Northern Ireland, but this should happen only when the security situation permits and your Lordships will know that we are not there yet. Given the current severe threat from Northern Ireland-related terrorism and its bearing on criminal trials, now is not the time. The renewal of these provisions for a further two years is, regretfully, the only way forward at present.
The Government remain fully committed to tackling the threat from terrorism and keeping the people of Northern Ireland safe and secure. It is with this responsibility in mind that the Government seek to renew the non-jury trial provisions. I commend the order to the Grand Committee.
Lord Bew
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for introducing the order, which I reluctantly support. I have only one question. At one point the noble Baroness said that all stakeholders who were consulted accepted the need for the continuation of these arrangements. The document actually says that the majority of respondents to the consultation accepted the need for the continuation of these arrangements. Is it possible to be told a little more about the arguments of the minority and how strongly they were stated, even, if possible, where they came from and, indeed, if this represents any difference of view among the political parties? However, as I said in my opening remarks, I regretfully agree absolutely with the Government that the situation in Northern Ireland at the moment is such that it is necessary to continue with these arrangements. I hope very much that it will not be too long before the Minister can come to the Dispatch Box and give us better news, but she has had no alternative than to make the announcement that she has today.
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, again I thank the Minister for her clear outline of the order. For the purpose of this discussion, I thank my two friends, the noble Lords, Lord Bew and Lord Empey, for bringing as usual to these discussions weight, knowledge and a firm understanding of what is at stake in Northern Ireland. They have long experience there, which we are lucky to have brought to this Room. I share with all noble Lords and noble Baronesses the reluctance, but nevertheless acceptance of the need, to proceed with the renewal of the order. It is entirely necessary but none of us likes it. There is merit in what the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said about a review at some point and we would all be delighted to have that review and for it to recommend the discontinuation of the legislation. However, we are not there yet.
In the interests of information and getting a clear picture of what is happening on the ground regarding these issues, the Minister outlined the number of cases. She mentioned only one terrorist-based organisation, which was republican. Does that mean that there were no instances of charges involving, for want of a better description, the loyalist/militant unionist community? Perhaps that is a bit of a misnomer. That is not to say that we are in some sort of competition to see who is causing more trouble than anyone else; it is for the sake of giving noble Lords here a grasp of the situation. That would inform us and enable us to get a better picture.
However, it is quite clear that we are all in agreement and the Labour Front Bench strongly supports this move and joins everyone in this Room in hoping that this is near enough the last continuation of these provisions.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentiment expressed by the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. We would all agree that we very much hope that this will be the last time that this order has to be renewed.
I shall start with the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Bew. I was perhaps not clear in what I said. There was a two-stage process in the consultation. The Secretary of State canvassed opinion among stakeholders and, having taken those initial soundings, she decided to hold a formal consultation. It was formal but limited in the number of organisations that were consulted and the response rate did not indicate that there was any burning concern in a number of organisations. Three of the responses from the organisations did not agree with the renewal, although one of them was a group of academics in Australia which was not a formal part of the consultation. The reasons given by the people who live in the community directly affected by this were largely to do with there being a lack of evidence of intimidation. Of course, one is struck by the fact that if this system is working well, it prevents intimidation, and therefore, it if has worked successfully, there will be little evidence of intimidation. For example, the director of the Committee on the Administration of Justice expressed frustration at the lack of available evidence of juror intimidation and questioned the degree of discretion afforded to the Director of Public Prosecutions in issuing the certificate. The tenor of the reply was concern that there was no evidence.
I share the concern expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, about the current violence. It is worth pointing out that there is a large number of unsuccessful attempts at violence and terrorism. I shall give some examples. So far this year, in relation to national security attacks, there have been 68 arrests, 32 charges and 19 seizures. That is a sign of the success of the PSNI operation. The noble Lord raised the possibility of judicial review. It is always a possibility, and the Northern Ireland Office is aware of it. I will ensure that the point is made to the Secretary of State and that she is aware of the noble Lord’s comments.
The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, asked about loyalist attacks. The concern about terrorism is primarily about dissident republicans but, of course, there is another issue about loyalist unrest, the nature of which we saw during the flag protests, which became violent on a number of occasions. There were death threats and violence against the police, and a considerable number of police were injured in the early days of those protests. We need to be aware of the issue, in that there is a different face to concern in both those communities.
Finally, we have to bear in mind that in Northern Ireland people are particularly vulnerable to paramilitary intimidation. It is greater than it is in the rest of the UK because, as noble Lords know very well from their own experience, people live in small, close-knit communities. It is particularly easy to identify those called for jury service, which is at the heart of the problem. We have to be concerned about the intimidation or potential intimidation of jurors by people representing both sides of the community. I commend the order to the Committee.
Representation of the People (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2013
Baroness Randerson Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Baroness Randerson
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Representation of the People (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2013.
Relevant document: 1st Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)
My Lords, the regulations were laid before the House on 8 May and make changes in four areas. They prescribe a canvass form, allow the names of those who have not returned their canvass form to be retained on the register for a period of two years following a canvass in certain circumstances, allow the Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland to share certain data with the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency, and permit the chief electoral officer to require information from the Northern Ireland Office in relation to registration activity.
Noble Lords may be aware that the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006 abolished the annual canvass in Northern Ireland. That Act introduced instead a process of continuous registration, under which the chief electoral officer uses information from other public bodies to identify those individuals who need to be registered on the electoral register or who need to amend their existing entry on it.
Following a report by the Electoral Commission highlighting a fall in the accuracy and completeness of the electoral register, the chief electoral officer has recommended that a canvass be held in 2013. This will ensure that the electoral register is in the best possible shape in advance of elections in 2014 and 2015. These regulations prescribe a canvass form, which is required in order for the canvass to be conducted in 2013.
The regulations also introduce changes which will improve the way the canvass operates, in line with recommendations in the Electoral Commission’s report. The Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland will be able to retain existing entries on the electoral register where those persons have not returned the canvass form, as long as the circumstances make it likely that they are still resident at the address and their information is still accurate. For example, where a person has made an application to be registered in the previous 12 months, the chief electoral officer might be satisfied that it is likely that the person’s information has not changed since then.
The regulations also make two changes in relation to information sharing. First, they put the passing of information about new British citizens in Northern Ireland from the Northern Ireland Office to the chief electoral officer on a statutory footing. Previously that information was passed using common law powers. Secondly, the regulations permit certain information about electors that is collected by the chief electoral officer to be passed to the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency, both to assist the chief electoral officer in meeting his registration objectives and for statistical purposes.
Noble Lords may be aware that further changes to the canvass form have been brought forward in the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, which has recently had its First Reading in the other place. Those changes will provide more flexibility in setting the canvass form in future, as well as the possibility of giving the Electoral Commission responsibility for designing the form, in line with the position in Great Britain.
The Electoral Commission, the Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland, the Department of Finance and Personnel in Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency and the Information Commissioner’s Office were all consulted on the detail of these regulations. A letter was also sent to all Northern Ireland parties represented in Parliament and the Assembly setting out the Government’s proposed changes to registration activity.
Recommendations for amending the regulations made by the Chief Electoral Officer and the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency have been included. The Electoral Commission recommended a number of drafting amendments to the regulations, as well as changes to the prescribed canvass form. Where possible these recommendations have been incorporated.
I hope noble Lords can agree this piece of legislation which improves the electoral registration process in Northern Ireland and enables a canvass of electors to take place in Northern Ireland later this year. I commend the regulations to the Committee.
Lord Empey
My Lords, I have a number of issues that I would like to raise with the Minister. She refers to the high number of inaccurate entries on the current register. In her wind up can she give the Committee some up-to-date figures as to what in her opinion the accuracy level of the register is at present? It is a continuous process but people perhaps become less exercised by it and do not follow through; if they move house and move around and so on, it is definitely an issue.
With regards to the reference that you are going to support research by NISRA into alternatives to the 2021 census, I think many people felt that the census was an extremely costly process. The information also decays very rapidly with time. Ten years is a long time in public policy and needs change. If it is possible to have a more accurate and running figure when one is making public policy and spending decisions, there is merit in that. Quite frequently we had to make decisions on the basis of previous censuses which obviously were very inaccurate by the time we got to them.
The Northern Ireland Electoral Commission also recommended changes to the way the canvass form is set, which would require primary legislation. The Government are considering this recommendation. Can the noble Baroness tell us where that thought process is at and whether the Government have decided to accept this recommendation? Will a law come forward?
The one issue to which I want to draw the Committee’s attention is that of confidentiality. We all know about the Census (Confidentiality)(Northern Ireland) Order 1991 but I have to tell noble Lords that there is considerable anxiety among many people that the spread of information—the number of agencies from which the information is both drawn from and goes to—means that a very large number of people have access to it. No matter what is said, given that lip service is always paid to confidentiality, I am not clear about what is actually being done about this, so I would be grateful for an indication of what processes and decisions to implement it are in place. The fact is that people are still being targeted and, sadly, we have seen evidence of that over the past six months. A number of people are nervous about having their names appear on the electoral register, and yet they are under a legal obligation to provide information for electoral purposes. That information will be spread around a large number of public bodies whether they want it or not. In the past, I have listened to Ministers say that it is an issue and they are looking at it but I am unclear as what has ever been done about it. It is an extremely difficult problem to solve. Once information is passed to public bodies, it is in the system where loads of people have access to it, and it is not clear to me how that information is controlled.
I would be grateful if the noble Baroness could address these issues in her response to the Committee.
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her clear outline of the regulations. It is extremely important, particularly in Northern Ireland, that there is a continual process of encouraging people to register, despite the obvious difficulties quite rightly mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Empey. The issue of confidentiality is the only point I wish to raise.
Paragraph 8.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum explains that the Information Commissioner’s office made,
“recommendations in relation to the contents of the data arrangements between”,
various organisations and bodies in Northern Ireland. Is the noble Baroness able to share with us what those recommendations were, or at the very least at this stage say what the issues were that led the Government to further consider these recommendations? If she cannot do so today, perhaps she will write to me and the noble Lord, Lord Empey.
The Opposition Front Bench supports what the Government are doing here and would encourage them to make sure as best they can that people register and take part in the democratic process in Northern Ireland. I know that I have sprung a question on her, but if the information regarding the Information Commissioner’s Office is available and it is possible share it, I would be grateful.
Baroness Randerson
I thank both noble Lords who have spoken for their contributions and those noble Lords who have attended and shown interest in this debate. I will do my best to answer the questions posed and, as ever, I will review the record afterwards and write to noble Lords who are here if I have any further information to add.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, asked about the completeness of the register and its accuracy. The parliamentary register is considered to be 73% complete and the local government register is considered to be 71% complete. The accuracy for both registers is considered to be 78%. That gives us 22% inaccuracy. It is in the interests of democracy that we make the register as accurate as possible because inaccurate names will not increase the turnout; in fact, they would probably do the reverse. Therefore, it is important that we have a very accurate register in Northern Ireland.
I am pleased that the noble Lord welcomed using NISRA for the census and approaching the census information in a different way. The recommended changes to the canvass form that he referred to are in the primary legislation currently before the other place: the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. They will allow very broad parameters to be set by government. The form will be designed by the Electoral Commission. In my view and that of the Government, that is very much more satisfactory because, after all, the Electoral Commission has a wealth of experience and its approach has been honed in other parts of Britain.
I shall go back to the census and the issue about confidentiality raised by both noble Lords. Part of the benefit of information sharing with NISRA is improving its ability to obtain information relevant to the census. Confidentiality is a difficult issue, as the Northern Ireland Office is very aware. There was a public consultation on anonymous registration, and provisions on it are currently being considered. It is important to bear in mind that people do not have to have their address advertised on the register in order to have the right to vote. They have a legal obligation to register to vote but do not have to have their address advertised. I emphasise that NISRA deals with census material under conditions of secrecy and confidentiality. Its staff are trained to a very high standard in this and are under considerable regulation in the way in which they handle that data, for the reasons that noble Lords outlined in their concern about confidentiality. The concern about sharing data is not new. It has existed for some time and therefore is not associated with these regulations.
Finally, I shall correct a slip that I made when talking about the Electoral Commission designing the form. It may design the form but will not necessarily do so. The legislation before the other place would permit it to do so.
I commend the regulations to the Committee.
Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2013
Baroness Randerson Excerpts(11 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Randerson
That the draft order laid before the House on 6 February be approved.
Relevant document: 20th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 12 March.
Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2013
Baroness Randerson Excerpts(11 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Randerson
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2013
Relevant documents: 20th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)
My Lords, this order will allow local authorities in Wales to make arrangements for an external provider to undertake some of the new administrative functions created by the introduction of council tax reduction schemes from 1 April when council tax benefit is abolished. These changes are part of the Government’s wider policy of decentralisation.
I will provide a little more detail on the contracting out order. It will amend the Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) Order 1996. Currently under the 1996 order, local authorities in Wales can contract out functions connected with the administration and collection of council tax—for example, the calculation of an individual’s council tax liability or the serving of demand notices. Local authorities in Wales can also currently contract out the operation of the council tax benefit system under the Contracting Out (Functions of Local Authorities: Income-Related Benefits Order) 2002 if they choose to do so—arrangements that will cease once council tax benefit is abolished.
While some of the new administrative functions related to the introduction of council tax reduction schemes are already covered by the 1996 contracting out order, such as the processing of applications, some are not. To ensure that local authorities in Wales have the freedom to contract out all the new administrative functions, this order amends the 1996 contracting out order for Wales to add the following new administrative functions: first, the issuing of council tax reduction decision letters; secondly, the payment of a reduction amount under certain circumstances where the billing authority is of the opinion that it would be appropriate; thirdly, the serving of a penalty notice in connection with an offence committed with a reduction; and, fourthly, the repayment of amount paid in connection with a penalty under a local scheme—a penalty that has been subsequently quashed.
Because the abolition of council tax benefit also means that local authorities in Wales will no longer be able to rely on their current investigatory and enforcement powers for social security benefits, Welsh Ministers are making regulations to provide local authorities with replacement powers to tackle fraud in relation to council tax reduction schemes. These regulations will introduce new penalties, the collection of which has also been included as a function that could be contracted out under the 2013 order. Local authorities that choose to contract out functions will be expected to monitor the services delivered by their contractors. We expect the decisions taken by the contractor to be of the same standard as that of a local authority officer and subject to the same levels of confidentiality and data protection.
Local taxpayers’ rights will not be affected by this legislation. The same rights of appeal to the local authority and to the Valuation Tribunal for Wales will remain. While this order does not expand on the current provisions for the administration of council tax reduction schemes, it will carry out an essential function by enabling local authorities in Wales to choose how to deliver their local schemes, whether by using internal resources, external providers or a mixture of both. It is important that we provide local authorities with the tools they need to deliver a cost-effective council tax system. I commend this order to the Committee.
Lord Wigley
Perhaps I may ask for clarification on a couple of points by the noble Baroness. First, am I right in saying that the interpretation of this order is the provision of greater powers of privatisation for local authorities if they choose to use them? Is that the implication—services that would otherwise be in-house in local authorities can be undertaken by private companies on their behalf?
Secondly, I refer to Article 2 on,
“Amendment of the Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax, Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) Order 1996”.
In subsection (2), there is reference to,
“the Detection of Fraud Regulations”.
Are these regulations that have already been made? Are they made by the Assembly or here? Is there already a statutory instrument in effect on that, or are we awaiting something to be confirmed?
Baroness Gale
My Lords, I thank the Minister for placing this order before us today. As she has outlined, its purpose is to amend the Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) Order 1996. From April 2013, council tax benefit will be abolished and council tax reduction schemes will be introduced in Wales under the Local Government Finance Act 2012. In future, instead of receiving council tax benefit, low-income families will receive a reduction in their council tax. Currently, local authorities can contract out of administering the collection of council tax. The order we are debating is required to ensure that the new administrative functions are part of the council tax reduction scheme and can also be contracted out if local councils wish to do so. Those functions include such things as sending out decision letters and serving penalty notices. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and my noble friend Lord Rowlands asked some very interesting questions on those issues and I look forward to the Minister’s reply to them.
The drafting of the order is relatively uncontroversial but it is unfortunate that we have it at all. It comes about as a result of the Government’s decision to abolish council tax benefit. They are scrapping the national benefit and passing responsibility for it to local authorities in England and to the Welsh and Scottish Governments, and cutting funding by 10%. We accept that the Welsh Government have responsibility for the details of any schemes and are fully involved in setting up these details. The principle of getting rid of council tax benefit dismays us very much. In England, we see people on low incomes being asked to pay sums of money that they simply cannot afford. Most councils have had no option but to pass on some of the cuts. As a result, many low-income households currently exempt from council tax will have to pay it for the first time. Typically, they will have to pay between £96 and £225 a year. In Wales, a 10% cut would amount to an annual cut of some £74 per council tax benefit claimant. I wonder whether the Government fully understand the impact this will have on low-income families. Government Ministers have praised the freeze on council tax, which may, indeed, be welcomed by those on modest and high incomes. However, the removal of council tax benefit from those on the lowest incomes means an increase in what they will have to pay.
The Government say that pensioners must be protected from the cuts, which means that others face larger cuts, depending on the number of pensioners in a local authority. If councils also try to protect other vulnerable groups, such as disabled people or carers, the cuts enforced on working families will be even more severe. Because of the number of pensioners the average reduction across local authorities will work out at some 16%. In January the Welsh Minister for Social Justice and Local Government, Carl Sergeant, announced a £22 million support package to continue offering the full council tax discounts in Wales, and under prudent financial management the Welsh Government have been able to fund their proposals out of their reserves.
It has been a difficult time for the Welsh Government. They have had to balance an enormous number of cuts and manage them while facing a difficult budgetary situation. Towards the end of the winter they were able to see the effects on households of other welfare benefit cuts. They knew that they were perhaps not going to have so many payments for such things as severe winter weather. They were in a position to use that money for council tax discount. However, that prompts the question as to whether it can continue to be used in the future. It will certainly not be easy and councils are aware of the pressures on them.
Given that the Government are going ahead with the change, the Welsh Government and Welsh local authorities need the regulations in place as soon as possible. We will not oppose these regulations tonight.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their questions and remarks this afternoon. In principle this order does not change the way that councils deal with council tax. To deal with the first point of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, it has always been possible for councils to contract out billing, collection and enforcement. Councils have been able to appoint an external provider to undertake some administrative functions. This order simply enables this to continue under the new arrangements from 1 April when council tax benefit will no longer exist.
As always I will try my best to answer the questions that noble Lords have asked. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, asked whether this would mean greater privatisation. This order does not extend the powers that the local authorities already have to contract out their administrative functions in relation to council tax. As I have said, it allows them to apply them to the new council tax reduction schemes that are no longer part of the social security benefit system.
Lord Wigley
The Explanatory Note says that the order provides additional functions by way of authorising contractors. In other words, it goes beyond what was there before. Otherwise, presumably, we would not need it.
Baroness Randerson
I could attempt to look at the Explanatory Notes as I stand here but I think that it is better if I write to the noble Lord on that point. It is not practical for me to read the Explanatory Notes at the same time as trying to answer.
The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, has also asked about the detection of fraud regulations. These are the responsibility of the Assembly and that might be to what the noble Lord is referring in his question. Those regulations have been debated today in the Assembly, and Welsh Ministers will have made those regulations. We could not here, in the House of Lords, deal with this order until the detection of fraud regulations had been dealt with in the Welsh Assembly. I hope that that makes the responsibilities clear.
Lord Wigley
I do not want to go on unduly about this but, as I understand it, the legislation that we are dealing with today, here, was not scrutinised in the Assembly because it did not fall within the Assembly’s powers. If I understand correctly what the noble Baroness is saying, part of it—the part dealing with the fraud—does fall within the Assembly’s powers. The only point that I would make is that this underlines the need to simplify all this; matters are either devolved or they are not. That would make life very much simpler for everybody.
Baroness Randerson
The noble Lord makes an interesting point. It is something that we have come across on a fairly regular basis, that responsibilities are split in a way that is sometimes not obvious and sometimes surprising.
I move on now to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, who asked if there is more contracting-out now. I simply point out that this has always happened—for example, currently only three of the 22 local authorities in Wales have in-house bailiffs. Contracting-out on billing and bailiff services is very common. But a great deal of work has been done by the Welsh Government and by individual local authorities to have codes of conduct and best practice examples to ensure that bailiff services are run by improving standards over the years. A great deal of progress has been made on those issues.
Lord Rowlands
I apologise for interrupting the Minister again. I can understand the situation with bailiffs, but my feeling would be that a bailiff would not receive detailed personal information of the individual’s financial circumstances in the same way as some of the other services that are contracted out. That would give the external provider direct access to people’s personal finances, in a way that a bailiff probably would not have.
Baroness Randerson
I believe that external services will have no more access than they have had in the past, but they will continue to have an obligation to treat that material as confidential and deal with it in a responsible manner. Local authorities will continue to have—this is not new—a responsibility to ensure that any organisation or individual whom they appoint as a contractor to work on their behalf operates to the highest standards, and maintains confidentiality of personal data. To address here the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, as a very keen advocate of local authorities and someone who believes fervently in local government—and I am very proud of our local government system throughout Britain—I believe that councils are raising council tax, which is the tax that funds a lot of their spending. It is right that they have responsibility for the whole of the functions associated with the raising of that tax. It is important that we have confidence to delegate power to local authorities throughout Britain in order to enable them to raise tax and spend it as efficiently and practically as possible.
Finally, I turn to the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Gale.
Lord Rowlands
If some of these services are contracted out to an external provider and an individual feels that he or she has a grievance at the way that services are being administered, to whom does the individual appeal? If the local authority were doing it, it would be the Local Government Ombudsman. If, for example, an external provider committed a potential act of maladministration, could the individual go to the local ombudsman for redress of the grievance against the external provider?
Baroness Randerson
They will continue to appeal in the normal manner, the way in which they have been appealing since the establishment of council tax. The appeal will be to the valuation tribunal in the normal manner.
The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, expressed concern about the ending of council tax benefit. I do not believe it is an issue of concern in principle that council tax reductions will be done by councils rather than through the benefits system. I think it is very sensible to unite the reductions in council tax for those of limited means with the organisation that levies the tax in the first place. It is part of the Government’s policies of decentralisation and trusting local authorities. In this case, the Welsh Government have made a central scheme, and there are certain limited exceptions that local authorities can make decisions upon, but there is a largely standard scheme throughout Wales.
The concern that the noble Baroness expressed related to people who she believes will not receive the council tax reduction in future. I assure her that throughout Wales, if you are entitled to council tax benefit now, you will be entitled to a council tax reduction in future because the Welsh Government chose to supplement the funding being provided.
I hope that I have addressed all the points that noble Lords have raised. I am now in a position to answer the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, about the Explanatory Memorandum. This order adds new administrative functions to the 1996 order which relate to council tax reduction schemes, but under the Contracting Out (Functions of Local Authorities: Income-Related Benefits) Order 2002 local authorities could in the past have carried out those functions for council tax benefit.
It may be useful if I review the record and check that I have answered all questions fully. I will pay particular attention to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, about additional functions. I commend the order to the Committee.
Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (Wales) Regulations 2013
Baroness Randerson Excerpts(11 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Randerson
That the draft order laid before the House on 19 December 2012 be approved.
Relevant document: 15th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 29 January.
Control of Donations and Regulation of Loans etc. (Extension of the Prescribed Period) (Northern Ireland) Order 2013
Baroness Randerson Excerpts(11 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Randerson
That the draft order laid before the House on 5 December 2012 be approved.
Relevant document: 15th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 29 January.
Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (Wales) Regulations 2013
Baroness Randerson Excerpts(11 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Randerson
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (Wales) Regulations 2013.
Relevant document: 15th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)
My Lords, these regulations were laid before the House on 19 December 2012. They form part of a package of statutory instruments that will enable local authorities in Wales to enforce bus lane and some moving traffic offences. Similar civil enforcement provisions under the Traffic Management Act are already in force in Wales in respect of parking contraventions. The package of legislation will enable enforcement in Wales to be carried out by civil enforcement officers acting on behalf of local authorities, in addition to police officers and traffic wardens.
By way of some background, Part 6 of the Traffic Management Act 2004 provides power to the “appropriate national authority” to make regulations for the civil enforcement by local authorities of parking and waiting restrictions, bus lanes and some moving traffic offences. In Wales the appropriate national authority is Welsh Ministers. The Act also confers powers on the Lord Chancellor to make regulations dealing with the notification and enforcement of penalty charges, representations to the enforcement authority, appeals to an independent adjudicator by those on whom penalties are imposed, and the appointment of adjudicators. Section 89 of the 2004 Act provides the Lord Chancellor with express powers to make different provisions for Wales.
The regulations before the Committee set out procedures whereby persons upon whom civil penalties have been imposed for parking, bus lane or certain moving traffic contraventions in areas where civil enforcement applies, or persons whose vehicles have been immobilised on account of such contraventions, can make representations to the relevant enforcement authority against the imposition of the penalties in particular cases and can appeal to an independent adjudicator if their representations are rejected by the local authority in Wales.
Lord Jones
I will be brief. Does the noble Baroness have any intention, in the course of these proceedings, to give the Committee any statistics on the number of appeals and representations under the regime that is to be replaced by new legislation?
Baroness Randerson
It is not my intention to do so. As I will make clear later when responding to the questions and comments of noble Lords, it is very difficult to know the extent to which this will spread throughout Wales, because it will be a devolved issue and not one for your Lordships’ House.
I will return to what I was saying in introducing the regulations. Persons who have received penalties can make representations to the relevant enforcement authority against the imposition of the penalties in particular cases and can appeal to an independent adjudicator if their representations are rejected by the local authority in Wales. The regulations set out the grounds for making representations and for appealing, and the schedule contains rules for the conduct of proceedings before adjudicators.
Using their executive powers in the Traffic Management Act 2004, Welsh Ministers propose to expand the range of offences for which civil enforcement may be used by local authorities in Wales to include bus lane contraventions and some moving traffic offences; for example, restrictions applying to cycle lanes, left or right turns and box junctions. These specific regulations are necessary to ensure that persons on whom civil penalties have been imposed in Wales can make representations against the imposition of the penalties and can appeal to an independent adjudicator if their representations are rejected by the local authority in Wales.
The regulations should be read in conjunction with a further set of regulations, the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (General Provisions) (Wales) Regulations 2013. Assuming that the regulations before the Committee today are approved, these regulations will be made by both the Lord Chancellor and Welsh Ministers and laid before both Parliament and the Assembly, subject to annulment. A copy of the proposed regulations is attached as an annexe to the Explanatory Memorandum.
The general provisions regulations must be signed by both the Lord Chancellor and Welsh Ministers. They provide detail in relation to the service of penalty charge notices and the immobilisation of vehicles. They also prescribe requirements in relation to the use of income generated from penalty charge notices and deal with the appointment of adjudicators by enforcement authorities.
Welsh Ministers will need to make several sets of regulations in addition to both these sets of regulations, subject only to Assembly procedure, to complete the package of legislation. The first of these, the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) Removed Vehicles (Wales) Regulations 2013, deals with the appeal process where a vehicle owner does not agree that a vehicle should have been removed and/or disposed of by the local authority in Wales.
The regulations dealing with appeals against removed vehicles were laid in draft before the Assembly on 19 December and are subject to a resolution of the Assembly before being made. A further set of regulations subject to annulment in the Assembly is expected to be laid in due course. The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices) (Wales) Order 2013 will deal with technical specifications for devices used by local authorities in Wales to capture road traffic contraventions; for example, camera enforcement. My department continues to work closely with the Welsh Government on the delivery of the overall package.
In the interests of simplifying this area, the opportunity is being taken to consolidate the law. Provisions relating to civil enforcement of parking, bus lanes and moving traffic offences are being consolidated throughout the package of statutory instruments.
Under the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007, parking adjudicators are a “listed tribunal” which is required to be consulted on these regulations. We have therefore consulted the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council on the draft regulations and the council has confirmed that it is content.
The regulations before your Lordships today are entirely in line with the division of responsibilities between the Lord Chancellor and Welsh Ministers for civil enforcement provided for in the Traffic Management Act 2004. The regulations have been considered by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which has determined that the special attention of the House need not be drawn to them. They have been considered also by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, which has approved them without comment.
The Government’s role in bringing the regulations forward demonstrates our commitment to observing devolution arrangements and, where appropriate, to collaborating with the Welsh Government to enable them to deliver their commitments in Wales. I beg to move.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
My Lords, I have reassuringly good news for the Minister: I think it unlikely that these regulations will be contested. Clearly they are, as she said, part of a package of representation and appeals procedures that appear to be eminently sensible. Obviously, the regulations are not controversial. There is a strong consensus in favour of the regulations in Wales. As the Minister has said, they are part of a process of devolution, and of working together at both London and Cardiff levels.
I also agree with the Minister that the mischief aimed at is very clear. It is the assessment of the Welsh Government that the heavy workload of the police in Wales means that a relatively low priority is given to the enforcement of the bus lane offences. Therefore, the case is made that local authorities, which clearly have an interest in the enforcement of these regulations if they so choose, are likely to lead a more speedy and effective enforcement process. Indeed, the process is likely to encourage a greater use of buses. It is relevant and related to the good work of the Assembly done over “park and ride”, for example. It may well lead to a reduction in congestion, along with many other measures in the urban areas.
Briefly, to put this in context, bus lanes are by definition overwhelmingly relevant to urban areas. However, we have just heard that the financial support for buses and rural transport has been substantially reduced. The Assembly has just announced that in the coming financial year, 2013-14, the sum available for rural transport and buses is £25 million, whereas in the current year it is £33 million. That is a more than 25% reduction and obviously has implications not only for the increasing isolation of rural areas but for the elderly and low-income groups within those areas. It has relevance, too, to young people seeking jobs.
I obviously have a few questions for the Minister. Looking at the process which she has outlined, based on the 2004 Act, it is clearly highly convoluted and lengthy. I would be grateful if she could indicate whether she agrees with that, and what proposals she has for cutting that down. One obvious conclusion is that the involvement of the Ministry of Justice and the Lord Chancellor is really a fifth wheel to the coach. This is a series of decisions which should properly be made in and for Wales. There is no real contribution. Think of all the forests in Finland which have been cut down and the time wasted at the Westminster level for this type of regulation. I hope that the Minister and the Wales Office will be considering how best one can streamline these procedures. That, I am sure, would be much supported in Wales.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. I will preface my remarks and my attempts to answer all the questions—of which there were many—with a key point that I must stress. It is important to recognise that under the Traffic Management Act, the decision to expand the civil enforcement regime in Wales falls within the executive competence of Welsh Ministers. They have concluded that they should now make use of their powers under the Act in relation to bus lane and some moving traffic offences. That decision having been made by Welsh Ministers, these regulations are necessary to ensure that people upon whom civil penalties have been imposed are able to appeal to an independent adjudicator if their representations are rejected by a Welsh local authority. In other words, we are here today—as several noble Lords pointed out—to carry out the desires, wishes and policies of the Welsh Government, but we are doing so within the framework of UK legislation.
The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, called attention to the Welsh Government’s view that the police give low priority to traffic and bus lane offences because of their heavy workload. That is undoubtedly the case. I recall the police saying to me on several occasions when I was an elected representative that they did not have the time or resources to pay attention to such issues. It was one of the more frustrating parts of my role as an elected representative to try to deal with the concerns of local residents about things that were very important to them but which the police did not regard as a priority—for good, logical reasons in the larger scheme of law enforcement. The noble Lord referred to the fact that bus lanes are issues in urban areas. He called attention to the reduction in financial support for bus routes within Wales. I must point out that this is a budgetary decision entirely of the Welsh Government.
The noble Lord rightly pointed out that this is a lengthy and complex process. The intention is that all four instruments to which I referred will be made simultaneously, once Parliament has approved the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (Wales) Regulations, and the Assembly has approved the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) Removed Vehicles (Wales) Regulations 2013. The general provisions of the regulations will come into force a minimum of 21 days later.
The process is complex because both the UK and Welsh Governments are involved. Noble Lords expressed frustration about this, which I understand. Perhaps I may gently point out that the Silk consultation is ongoing, and if noble Lords wish to make representations on this issue to the commission, that would be entirely in order in terms of the work that it is doing.
The noble Lords, Lord Anderson and Lord Wigley, referred to the considerable length of time since the consultation exercise was concluded. The time lapse can be explained by further work which was undertaken to develop the regulations with the adjudication service, with the British Parking Association and with local authorities. However, as noble Lords have said, this is a complex issue. We are working here entirely to the timetable of the Welsh Government. This is the Welsh Government’s policy. We are working with them to implement that policy. I am sure that we would all wish that it is now implemented as soon as possible.
Statistics were raised by the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Jones. These are, of course, new enforcement powers which local authorities will be able to use. Previous statistics do not fit these powers. The previous traffic offence statistics which exist are supplied by the police. They are not supplied on the same geographical basis. They are not, as far as I am aware, broken down into individual offences—although I will check that out and write to noble Lords if I am incorrect. Of course, those statistics reflect a police service which has said that it does not have the time to do this job as effectively as it would wish. Any previous statistics are therefore of relatively little application to the current situation. Of course, the police will continue to have the powers to do this, as they have at the moment. We are looking at local authority enforcement, but there will be a two-strand approach, as the police will also continue to enforce.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
The police will still have the powers but it is fair to assume, given the low priority, that in most cases they will try to pass this on to the local authority. There must be some guesstimate in government of how many additional employees there will be among the local authorities, otherwise one is totally in the dark on this.
Baroness Randerson
Annual parking enforcement reports are already in existence on the enforcement activities of those authorities which have civil enforcement of parking. In future, these annual reports will include bus lane and moving traffic offences. Although the concern for statistics is entirely correct, and although I am saying to noble Lords that the current statistics are of limited use, in future the desire to get more statistics will be fully satisfied. There will be annual reports.
I will review what is available and consult the Welsh Government over this. If I believe that they can add anything useful to our discussion today, I will write to noble Lords. However, from what I know of the statistics that exist, they will be of little relevance when applied to the future.
On the Lord Chancellor’s powers, it was thought appropriate that provision about appeals, notification and adjudication should be made by the Lord Chancellor. This is not a devolved matter. The UK Government have worked closely with the Welsh Government to introduce the package together. The process of co-operation between the two Governments has worked well in this case. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, asked about the estimated cost passed to the local authorities. There is no estimate of the cost. The enforcement is not being entirely transferred to local authorities, because, as I have already said, the police will retain enforcement alongside local authorities. However, I emphasise that local authorities have welcomed the opportunity to enforce these contraventions. It is expected that the schemes will be self-financing within a year.
Lord Wigley
If there is no estimate made of the cost, how on earth can they say they are self-financing?
Baroness Randerson
That is the basis on which the provisions, in terms of the parking regulations, have been applied. This is not an entirely new scheme, in that this approach applies already in London, so there is the example of London to be followed. But there is also the example of how the parking enforcement has worked, and that has been very successful. For example, in Cardiff it has been possible to apply that self-financing approach very effectively. In the event of there being a surplus generated by civil enforcement at the end of the year, it must by law be spent on transport purposes. Those purposes are listed within the regulations, so it is very tightly controlled.
Local authorities have welcomed the opportunity to enforce these contraventions. They believe that it will lead to a more effective and efficient bus service and an easier traffic flow. It is not an approach that would immediately attract rural areas, perhaps; we are talking primarily about urban areas. I emphasise that local authorities are not obliged to take up these powers; they do so only if they wish. It is for them to determine the suitability of the scheme.
The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, referred to the bodies which were sent the consultation documents. The Welsh Government’s consultation documents are published on their website and were issued to numerous organisations. If the noble Lord wishes I can ask Welsh Ministers for a copy of their consultation circulation list.
Lord Wigley
I am sorry to delay the Committee, but I cannot allow this point to go by. Will the noble Baroness refer to page 21 of this document, where at the bottom of the Explanatory Note there is a reference to the Welsh Government’s website? Will she look at it and decide for herself whether “www.xxxxxxxx” is an appropriate address?
Baroness Randerson
I assure the noble Lord that I will deal with that as a matter of urgency after this debate finishes.
Lord Jones
When the noble Baroness looks at that, will she see if there are any statistics?
Baroness Randerson
I will respond to noble Lords in general afterwards on any issues that arise from this debate.
Finally, when I write about the statistics, noble Lords should bear in mind that we do not know how many local authorities are going to opt in to this scheme, so it is difficult to talk about the statistics.
The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, asked when the debate in the House of Commons would be. It will be on 12 February. As the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, said, it may not be a cause for great excitement. I am a citizen of Cardiff. The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, gave a very good example of Cardiff lacking the power to take action on bus lanes. I remember the South Wales Echo featuring a heated debate as to whether Cardiff Council should have the power to enforce parking restrictions. It was probably one of the most heated local debates within the Welsh capital city in many years. It is important to remember that these issues may seem to us relatively minor, but they are of considerable importance not only to local residents but to bus companies, commuters and, of course, the democratically elected councils that run our cities and towns and try to make sure that we have an effective and efficient transport system. I commend the regulations to noble Lords.
Control of Donations and Regulation of Loans etc. (Extension of the Prescribed Period) (Northern Ireland) Order 2013
Baroness Randerson Excerpts(11 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Randerson
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Control of Donations and Regulation of Loans etc. (Extension of the Prescribed Period) (Northern Ireland) Order 2013.
Relevant document: 15th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)
My Lords, this order was laid before the House on 5 December 2012. Put simply, it will extend the period in which donations and loans to political parties in Northern Ireland can be made confidentially.
Noble Lords will no doubt be aware of the significant difference in the rules that apply to political parties in Northern Ireland compared with those elsewhere in the UK; namely, that donor and lender identities be kept confidential. Otherwise, the rules governing the reporting of donations and loans in Northern Ireland are the same as those that apply elsewhere in the United Kingdom, as set out in the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. It is the Government’s firm intention, set out in our January 2011 consultation response, to modify the law in the primary legislation to be introduced when parliamentary time allows and to make more information available about donations and loans to political parties in Northern Ireland. We intend to publish draft legislation on this matter next week.
The draft Bill will create a power to expand what can or must be disclosed by the Electoral Commission. The power will allow us to permit information about past donations and loans—the amount, the nationality of the donor; whether they are a corporation or an individual—to be published, but not information that reveals identities of donors. In relation to future donations and loans, the power will allow us to increase transparency incrementally. If and when it is appropriate to do so, the Government are committed to achieving full transparency of donations and loans, consistent with the position in Great Britain. However, that Bill is for another day.
As far as this order is concerned, the reason for extending the current regime on donations and loans is simple. The existing legislation providing for confidentiality of donations and loans made since 1 November 2007 falls on 28 February. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has considered carefully whether it would be appropriate to allow the current arrangements to lapse. While there is a strong case for increasing transparency about donations and loans to political parties in Northern Ireland, she came to the conclusion that it is right to extend the current regime for two reasons.
First, the identities of those who made donations or loans during the prescribed period—that is, since 1 November 2007—would be revealed if we were to let the provisions lapse without introducing primary legislation to provide retrospective anonymity. The guidance given to donors and lenders at the time they contributed did not make this clear and it would be wrong to release their identities retrospectively when they had a reasonable expectation at the time the donation or loan was made that this would not be the case. We therefore need to introduce primary legislation to provide for continuing anonymity for donations and loans made since 1 November 2007 until it can be made clear to donors and lenders that, if they choose to make a donation or loan, their details could potentially be published.
Secondly, the general threat level in Northern Ireland remains at “severe”. As recent events have shown all too clearly, there remain those who are willing to use violence against individuals with whose political views they disagree. PSNI statistics show that there has been no general reduction in the incidence of violence or intimidation since this matter was last considered in 2010. Indeed, in light of recent events in Belfast, it is highly likely that the overall number of incidents will have increased. Any decision to publish the personal details of donors and lenders will need to be made by the Secretary of State taking into account up-to-date information about the risk of intimidation of donors and lenders at any given time.
As I have set out, I believe that there is room to increase the transparency of the donations and loans regime without compromising the security of individuals or businesses. However, this requires the introduction of primary legislation to allow the donations and loans regime in Northern Ireland to be amended in a way that creates future transparency while protecting those who have made donations in the past. At present, the regime does not allow for that flexibility. The Secretary of State is only able to decide between maintaining and removing the current regime.
I am sure we all agree that transparency and accountability in matters relating to the financing of political parties are important to ensure that fraud and corruption can be avoided. The publication of donations and loans made to political parties supports democratic decision-making by enabling the electorate to know how and by whom candidates and elected officials are funded. However, we need to consider the security of individuals and businesses in Northern Ireland, and to ensure that we do not create a deterrent to political donations that damages the ability of political parties to contest elections and unduly restricts the choice available to voters.
This decision has not been taken lightly. We all wish that the situation in Northern Ireland had improved sufficiently that the measure would not be necessary. The Electoral Commission was consulted prior to the order being laid. It confirmed that it was content with the proposal to extend the prescribed period on the basis that forthcoming legislation will address the question of protecting the identities of those who have made donations and loans since 2007, and that no further extension of the prescribed period will be necessary.
I have the greatest respect for those who argue for the utmost transparency in electoral finance in Northern Ireland. The Government agree that a transition to the system used in Great Britain is essential. However, we believe that the transition to that system will be managed most effectively through a gradual increase in transparency, reflecting a security situation that is still very difficult.
The existing legislation will fall on 28 February, and the provisions ensuring that reports of donations and loans in Northern Ireland remain confidential need to be extended for a further period to allow time for primary legislation to be introduced. The order will extend the current regime to allow for this. I hope that noble Lords will agree this piece of legislation. It will enable us, in time, to increase the transparency of donations and loans in Northern Ireland. I commend the order to the Committee.
Lord Lexden
My Lords, this order is plainly necessary, and I thank my noble friend for explaining it so fully and clearly. As she said, it would be entirely inappropriate to make changes that would oblige the political parties of Northern Ireland to divulge to the public at large full details of their donations and loans when the state of politics in the Province is so unstable and the security situation so fraught. In today’s volatile circumstances, those Northern Ireland parties that feel strongly that the identities of their donors and lenders should continue to be protected must remain free to protect them—certainly for the time being. I know that that remains the view of the Ulster Unionist Party, which is the party to which I have always felt closest during the 45 years in which I have taken a keen interest in Ulster’s politics. This interest was sharpened in the late 1970s when I worked as an adviser to Airey Neave.
At the same time, unionist principle demands that as soon as possible the same general arrangements for the disclosure of donations and loans should apply throughout all parts of our country. That, rightly, is the Government’s aim, as it was the aim of their predecessors. Understandably, the independent and highly regarded Electoral Commission, to which my noble friend rightly paid tribute, is pressing for that aim to be accomplished as soon as possible. In 2010, a full consultation exercise took place in the Province. Research carried out by the commission last year suggested that only 7% of the public there favour the retention of confidentiality, with nearly two-thirds supporting disclosure and over 30% declaring themselves happy with either. Nevertheless, I am sure that the Government are right to hasten carefully and slowly in this matter. As in so many other areas, decisive action needs to follow the emergence of widespread consensus among the local parties in accordance with the principles of the Belfast agreement. It does not exist at the moment.
Let us hope that, proceeding with patience and understanding, our Government are able to move forward on the basis of consensus when this order expires at the end of September next year. In the mean time, those Northern Ireland parties that wish to publish information about their donations and loans, and have the agreement of those involved, are of course at perfect liberty to do so. Such steps may well help hasten the overall pace of change.
Much controversy naturally attaches to the question of retrospective disclosure when this order is replaced by new legislation in due course. The Electoral Commission, the advice of which is valued so highly, is all for it, while retaining the confidentiality of information that would enable individual donors and lenders in years gone by to be identified. For my part, I am deeply sceptical about the expediency of any retrospective disclosure. Would it not be best to draw a line under earlier years and apply new rules of transparency and disclosure from the point at which they are introduced?
I support the order wholeheartedly. Along with my noble friend Lord Bew, who cannot be here this afternoon, I look forward eagerly to the forthcoming legislation that will replace it, providing for fuller transparency in future.
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for her clear and full explanation of the order. I think that it was appreciated by everyone. The forthright contribution made by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, and the fascinating speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, which took us down memory lane, did no harm to our discussions. I think that everyone in this Room understands why the legislation was passed in the first place, and while there is a desire for uniformity throughout the United Kingdom, the kingdom is also flexible and realistic enough to know when it has to bend, when it has to manoeuvre, and when it has to bring forward different legislation for different parts of the country. Unfortunately and tragically, this legislation was necessary, and indeed most folk would deem that it is still necessary. The Minister has mentioned the recent events which serve to underline the fact that when it comes to measures like these in Northern Ireland, the word to use must be “caution”. We have to be very careful that we do not introduce any unintended consequences.
Let me state right away that the Official Opposition support the Government in their position on this order. We hope, of course, that we can move as quickly as possible to a situation of full transparency regarding these donations, but nevertheless it is clear that that will have to be a gradual process. As has been mentioned, the Electoral Commission is much respected and the Opposition is practically foursquare with its views on the order. We want to see it amended as soon as possible so that voters can see how parties are funded, but as I mentioned earlier, caution must come first. I also welcome the announcement about the timing of the draft Bill to see how quickly it is envisaged that we can move forward.
When it comes to the draft Bill, I want to put one inquiry to the Minister today. Will that Bill raise the issue of double-jobbing? I am not quite sure about all the intricacies, but I have been told to put the question and to get a response. As I say, we support the order and the retrospective principle contained in it. It is only right that there should be retrospection, apart from any information that would enable donors and lenders to be identified. It has to be a mixture of innovation and caution. In Northern Ireland matters, that is always the right thing to do.
Public opinion research shows consistent support for the introduction of transparency into the funding of political parties in Northern Ireland. The Electoral Commission has informed me that the most recent survey, carried out in December 2012, found that 62% of the respondents felt that information about who donates to political parties should be made available to the public. Some 7% said that it should remain confidential while 31% did not mind either way. That sounds like a familiar figure. We need to deal with this situation so that the Electoral Commission is not legally bound to publish something. We would like to see a fully transparent scheme, but surely we all understand why we are moving slowly on it.
In conclusion, as I have said, the Official Opposition support what the Government are doing here. Our Front Bench Members have discussed these matters with the Government and we are prepared to support an extension of the prescribed period, it is hoped for a final time, having received the assurances announced by the Minister that very soon there will be moves to bring Northern Ireland into line with the rest of the UK in terms of transparency around political donations. There needs to be a change, but we acknowledge that there is no agreement between the political parties in Northern Ireland about thresholds and the amount of information to be made available on individuals, security matters and other issues. However, they are not drawbacks or obstacles but opportunities to further advance the situation in Northern Ireland so that it comes more into line with the rest of the United Kingdom. We support the order.
Baroness Randerson
I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate and welcome the fact that the order has received so much support. I shall endeavour to answer as many points as I can.
The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, accepted that there should be a move to full transparency in time, and I believe that that feeling is shared around this Room. Both the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, and the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, pointed to the 2010 consultation, in which two-thirds of respondents supported disclosure and transparency. I liked the comment that we should proceed with patience and understanding.
I believe that it was the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, who made the important point that political parties can publish, if they wish, these details. It is my understanding that the Alliance Party has commenced that process. Once some political parties start to publish, I believe that others will follow—the Alliance has started; others will follow—and I hope that that will hasten the eventual move to full transparency.
Several noble Lords referred to retrospective disclosure. To avoid confusion in relation to whether disclosure will apply to past donations or future donations made during the extended prescribed period—that is, until September 2014—we intend to provide that the identities of those who have made donations or loans in the past without knowing that their details might be released are not published when the prescribed period ends. People donating now, during the current prescribed period, will not find their names and details published. Retrospective disclosure is therefore addressed and dealt with and will not apply.
The Government are, however, committed to the disclosure of other information which would not identify donors. That information might include whether the donation came from a corporation or an individual, the nationality of that individual and the amount of the donation, but none of those would identify the name or address of the individual.
It is important to emphasise that the Electoral Commission does very rigorous checks in Northern Ireland on donations and loans. Although the general regulations on disclosure to the Electoral Commission are the same as those in the rest of Britain—beyond the publication, of course—the checks that the Electoral Commission does in Northern Ireland are more rigorous than in the rest of Britain. In other words, it goes to greater lengths to satisfy itself on the genuineness of the information that it is given.
The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, asked about the significance of 30 September 2014. Its significance is that it is the earliest possible date. The Electoral Commission requires that the system moves to greater transparency as soon as possible. That needs primary legislation. The estimate is of how quickly primary legislation can go through this House and the other place and, following that, how quickly the regulations can be implemented. Responses to the Electoral Commission are made quarterly and that is the end of the quarter when this can reasonably be expected to happen. As I said, and as noble Lords will have noted, a draft Bill will be published next week.
The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, also asked about the definition of “regulated recipients”. It is defined in Schedule 7 to the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. It applies throughout the country, including Northern Ireland. It covers members of political parties, members of associations and holders of elected office, so I think that it probably would apply to the noble Lord in his previous life and career.
I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, has pledged his support. It is important that we have the widest possible support, particularly cross-community support in Northern Ireland. I am pleased that he accepts that the process will be gradual. He asked a specific question about whether double-jobbing would be addressed in the draft Bill. The issue was covered in public consultation last year and, although I cannot at this stage reveal the contents of the draft Bill, it is clearly on the agenda of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.
I am pleased that the order has received such a warm welcome, which I hope will ensure its speedy acceptance in the Chamber next week.
Northern Ireland
Baroness Randerson Excerpts(11 years, 9 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat the Statement made earlier today in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on events in Northern Ireland.
“Before updating the House on the recent protests and disorder, I wish to report on an attempted terrorist attack. On 30 December, an officer of the Police Service of Northern Ireland discovered an improvised explosive device attached to the underneath of his car shortly before he was due to drive his wife and family to Sunday lunch.
The IED was viable and, were it not for the alertness of the officer in checking his car, it is highly likely that he and his family would all have lost their lives. This despicable attack bears the hallmarks of the so-called dissident republicans and looks to be the latest example of the relentless efforts these groupings make to try to murder police officers. It underlines the need for continued vigilance. The Government will continue to do everything that they can to help the PSNI combat the terrorist threat in Northern Ireland. The House should also be aware that two individuals have been charged in relation to the murder of prison officer David Black.
Turning to the disturbances in Belfast and other parts of Northern Ireland, since I reported to the House on 11 December, protests over the flying of the union flag at Belfast City Hall have continued, with only sporadic respite over Christmas. While many of these have been peaceful, even these peaceful protests have seen roads blocked and daily life disrupted. A significant number of protests have led to serious disorder, mainly concentrated in east Belfast. While, thankfully, there were no significant public order incidents last night, the violence during the preceding six days saw masonry, bricks, fireworks and petrol bombs being thrown at police, and in one instance shots were fired. Police vehicles have been attacked with sledgehammers. On 5 and 7 January, water cannon and AEP rounds were deployed. In total, 66 police officers have been injured since these protests first began. Threats and intimidation against elected representatives continue, with the office of the honourable Member for Belfast East still the subject of daily intimidation.
The intimidation and violence are unacceptable and intolerable. The Government condemn those responsible in the strongest possible terms. We reiterate our full support for the chief constable and his officers in their efforts to maintain law and order, and we pay tribute to the bravery and professionalism of PSNI officers, who put their safety on the line every day to keep people in Northern Ireland safe and secure. According to the chief constable, senior individual members of the Ulster Volunteer Force are involved in orchestrating the violence, although the chief constable’s view is that it is not being sanctioned by the leadership of that group.
Since 3 December, 107 people have been arrested and 82 have been charged with various offences. So the perpetrators of this violence should be in no doubt that, as the chief constable made clear on Monday, they will face the full rigour of the law. Those who continue to organise these protests and engage in violence really need to ask themselves what they think they are achieving. The idea that hurling bricks at police officers is somehow defending the union flag or protecting Britishness is incomprehensible. These people are not defending our national flag; they are dishonouring our national flag and our country. What is more, they are being reckless with the peace settlement and all that it has delivered.
The damage that they are inflicting on Northern Ireland’s economy must be considerable. Huge efforts have been made in recent years to project a modern, confident and outward-looking Northern Ireland that is a great place to do business. But the pictures beaming round the world of riots and disorder make it far harder to compete in the global race for inward investment. Jobs and livelihoods are under threat. So it is essential that these protests and this violence stop now.
Since these disturbances began, I have been in regular contact with the chief constable, the First and Deputy First Ministers, the Justice Minister and other political leaders. The Northern Ireland political parties need to work together to find a way forward. It should not be impossible to find a way which sees decisions on flags made in a way that respects different views and takes into account the different traditions and identities present in today’s Northern Ireland. For that to happen, the issue needs to come off the streets to allow local politicians and community leaders the space to sit around a table and engage in constructive dialogue.
I have used recent weeks to highlight the urgent need to make progress on addressing the underlying divisions within the community in Northern Ireland, which can make decisions on issues such as flags so fraught with tension. On many occasions, Northern Ireland’s political leaders have expressed their firm commitment to building a shared society free from sectarian division. It is a theme to which I and my predecessor, along with the Prime Minister, have returned many times.
So much has been achieved in the 20 years since the peace process really got under way. The overwhelming majority of people in Northern Ireland can lead their lives with a normality and a freedom from fear that would have been impossible back in the dark days of the Troubles. However, we all need to acknowledge that the process is not finished, and the stability delivered by the Belfast agreement should never be taken for granted.
For some, sectarian divisions remain deeply entrenched, and it is time for bold moves by Northern Ireland’s political leadership to address them. We need to build a genuinely shared future for everyone in Northern Ireland. It will not be easy, but Northern Ireland’s political leaders have already shown themselves capable of taking difficult decisions in order to make progress on many matters. They have fixed tougher problems than the ones that we are discussing today. I believe that they can rise to this challenge, as they have to so many others in the past two decades. The UK Government stand ready to work with them and support them in their efforts to deliver a better and more cohesive future for Northern Ireland. I commend this Statement to the House”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, I appreciate the spirit of the response that the noble Lord has made to the Statement, the tributes that he has made to the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and indeed the ongoing support of his party and its commitment to the peace process. In answer to the various questions, the Prime Minister has been briefed every day on events in Northern Ireland. He takes a very keen interest in Northern Ireland and has a very strong commitment to the country, as evidenced by the fact that he selected Northern Ireland as the venue for the G8 later this year—a matter of considerable importance to the Northern Ireland economy.
I also want to say how much the Government appreciate the tributes being made to the honourable Member for Belfast East. She has dealt with the attacks on her office, on her and on her reputation by behaving with great dignity and courage throughout. It is important to bear in mind that her staff are also having to bear with these attacks, as indeed are a large number of other elected politicians from across political parties. It is important that we bear in mind that they, their families and their staff are very much under pressure at this time. I would respond to the noble Lord’s comments by saying that the history of Northern Ireland shows that only discussion will work; only by getting round the table and discussing the problems and the differences of view will any solution come. Violence has not been effective in the last 50 years and it will not be effective now.
In relation to the question on the UVF, the Chief Constable has stated that he believed that the leadership of the UVF was not directly involved and has not sanctioned the action that has been taking place. Violence on the streets is not acceptable; it is not acceptable wherever it is in the UK and it is certainly not acceptable in Belfast.
In relation to the issue of whether this is a matter of national security, the response has to be that, whatever label you put on this and whatever category you put these events into, the services involved are working together very closely to deal with the problems. Of course, that leads me on to another question from the noble Lord. This takes resources from community policing and from other aspects of Northern Ireland’s budget. Community policing is so important to progress in the most disadvantaged communities in Northern Ireland, from which many of the protesters are coming. Rioting on the street makes it more difficult for the Northern Ireland Executive to deliver on education, the health service and the development of the economy.
Respect for both Britishness and Irishness in Northern Ireland has been a symbol of the last 20 years and it must continue. I appreciate the points made by the noble Lord on a modern Northern Ireland. It is a country of tremendous opportunities and 2013 will host some exciting and very important events.
Lord Alderdice
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for repeating the Statement and for the recognition in the Statement of the great courage of the Police Service of Northern Ireland: the police officer whom the dissident Republicans attempted to murder—actually, just around the corner from my own home—and the dozens of police officers who have been injured in the riots and disturbances created by loyalists.
However, despite what is said in the Statement about flags, do Her Majesty’s Government understand that this is not fundamentally about flags or flying the flag on designated days? Since the time when I was Speaker, starting in 1998, we had an understanding and agreement among all the political parties. The union flag would be flown only on designated days over Parliament Buildings. It was not an issue of contention at that time, or in the decade and a half since that time. This is about other issues. It is about a context being created by some political leaders for their own political interests. That is why I would like to pay particular tribute to the courage of Naomi Long, the honourable Member for Belfast East, and many other Alliance representatives and representatives of other parties who have been standing up for democracy and have been personally attacked and had their lives threatened for that courageous stand. I also pay tribute to the many ordinary people who have been terrified: cancer patients trying to go for treatment; business people trying to keep their businesses open; and ordinary people going about their business and trade who have been frightened and intimidated by what has been going on.
During the time when I was a member of the IMC, we were able regularly to brief the community in some detail about what was going on and who was doing it. That has not been the case. Despite the undertakings of the previous Secretary of State, Owen Paterson, that there would be six-monthly analyses of what has been going on, we are really not getting much detail—for example, of the activities of loyalist paramilitaries like the UVF. The noble Baroness has repeated that “the leadership” did not sanction this. That may be so, but is it the case that the leadership of the UVF in East Belfast has actually been involved in this? This is the kind of detailed question that some of us would like to explore and I fully recognise that the Floor of the House may not be the appropriate place for questions and answers. I ask my noble friend to encourage the Secretary of State to meet those Members of your Lordships’ House who are interested and concerned about Northern Ireland and who feel it is urgently important that we have a meeting with her in the near future to explore these things.
Finally, I ask the Government to recognise that the British and Irish Governments were the drivers of the peace process and without them there would not have been an agreement. Can they understand that they are also the guarantors of the settlement and therefore cannot back off and suppose that those who are there and sometimes have their own games to play will be trusted to deliver the peace that needs to be maintained?
Baroness Randerson
I thank the noble Lord for his comments, particularly those on the courage of the PSNI. The Government fully appreciate that there are complex issues behind these protests and that it is about more than just flags in many cases, not least about issues of deprivation. Ironically, the more unrest there is in Northern Ireland, the less likelihood there will be of further economic investment, so it becomes a real problem.
The noble Lord referred to the Assembly agreement, with which he was intimately involved, on the flying of flags. I believe that Lisburn city hall uses a similar method. There are a variety of agreements on the flying of flags. However, these decisions must be made in Northern Ireland. They are devolved, democratic decisions to be made in Northern Ireland and cannot be made by the UK Government.
We have to keep repeating the importance of democracy in relation to Northern Ireland. Democracy must be our watchword. I will of course take the noble Lord’s words to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. It is important that your Lordships are fully involved and fully briefed where possible on issues relating to Northern Ireland. I will ensure that those comments are repeated to my right honourable friend.
Finally, the roles of the British Government and the Irish Government remain crucial in supporting and encouraging the Northern Ireland Executive but it would be counterproductive on many issues for the British Government to intervene on matters which are devolved and must remain devolved.
Lord Rogan
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. I and my party condemn utterly the rioting and the violence and the threats and attacks against elected representatives. I again plead that these stop immediately. Rioting is wrong. It destroys the very position and arguments being put forward by the protestors. Furthermore, some 60-plus police officers who nightly are standing on the streets of Northern Ireland holding the line against violence have been injured. I join the Minister in praising and paying tribute to the bravery and the professionalism of the PSNI officers on the ground in these difficult days. If these riots should continue and escalate, as I fear they might, and the PSNI chief constable asks for further resources, be they financial or police personnel from the mainland, will these resources be readily available?
Baroness Randerson
I thank the noble Lord for his question. I wholeheartedly agree with his thoughts in terms of the fact that rioting destroys the arguments that the protestors purport to be making. The danger of escalation is very real and the situation is very serious. As far as I know, the chief constable has not asked for additional resources but the UK Government have always stood ready to provide what Northern Ireland needs for its security. I am aware that the chief constable will be assessing the impact of these nights of violence on his resources as the year progresses.
Lord Dubs
My Lords, does the Minister agree that one of the most depressing aspects of this very sad situation is, as the chief constable of Northern Ireland said, the number of young people who are involved in these disturbances? Our difficulty, of course, as the Minister said, is that because the powers to deal with these things are mainly devolved, there is very little that we can urge the Government to do. If I were a member of the Northern Ireland Assembly, I would ask the Executive whether it was time that they dealt with the tremendous disadvantage facing young people in Belfast. It has been there for years and I hope that it is not too late to deal with it. What they ought to do is bring together urgently the teachers, voluntary organisations, the police, the health service, local government and the churches to see what can be done to give the young people of the disadvantaged parts of Belfast some sense that they have a future too.
Baroness Randerson
I appreciate the noble Lord’s comments and I agree with him that the outstanding tragedy of recent weeks has been the incredibly young ages at which some of these people are becoming involved. One feels that they cannot fully understand what they are participating in. I agree entirely with the noble Lord that we must all redouble our efforts to deal with youth unemployment, which remains too high in Northern Ireland; to deal with low levels of educational achievement in many of the areas affected among the loyalist community; and to deal with attempts to improve the prosperity of Northern Ireland in general. That is why it is so very sad, when 2013 is a year of opportunity for investment, that this has occurred.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale
My Lords, I understand that the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister, at the opening press conference of the year on Monday morning, were not asked even one question on this topic by the assembled media. That tells us perhaps two things about the situation. First, there is an acceptance of violence in Belfast that simply would not exist in Aberdeen, Newcastle, Cardiff or anywhere else in the United Kingdom. Secondly, following devolution—we experienced this in Scotland and it has been experienced in Wales sometimes as well—there is almost a disinclination at the centre of UK government here in London to become involved in the issues that have become devolved.
My question is therefore whether the Government will assure us here today that they will retain a close interest in this. While the Police Service of Northern Ireland may well be devolved to the Assembly, and the issue of flags above Belfast City Hall may well be devolved to the City Council in Belfast, rioting on the streets of any UK city is a matter in which the UK Government must have an interest. The UK media must be interested too.
Baroness Randerson
I thank the noble Lord for his question. I agree wholeheartedly that it is absolutely essential that the UK Government maintain an interest in what is happening in Northern Ireland and that there are very close links between the Northern Ireland Office and the Northern Ireland Executive. I know that those links exist and that they are very active. The Secretary of State has been in daily contact with the Northern Ireland Executive and Ministers in the last few weeks. We must not accept violence on the streets of any of our cities. What is perhaps most poignant about the recent weeks is that we had almost come to believe that Belfast was entirely stable and secure from the outside. I think it has come as rather a shock to many people how difficult it has been to control this violence.
Lord Bew
My Lords, I thank the Minister for presenting this debate and for both its tone and its detail. I would like to focus just on one point: the mode of address of government in these circumstances.
One of the reasons for what has happened and for the many disgraceful scenes that we have seen on our television screens—I come from east Belfast and I have seen them happening right in front of me—is a sense among a wide section of the unionist community that some kind of erasure of their British culture is going on. I do not want to comment on the validity or otherwise of that perception. However, there is no doubt that part of the reason why respectable sections of unionism initially showed some sympathy for these protests is dependent on that feeling. It seems to me that there might be a case for the Government attempting to address it. This Government in particular have made a point of saying that they are not tepidly neutral on the union. This is a complicated question that has to be addressed with balance.
My next point will have no effect on the young people who are rioting, but if the Government remind the people of Northern Ireland that their place within the union, based on the principle of consent, is secure and that the Government are in no sense tepid about this prospect, that would help to draw away support for this protest from respectable sections of unionism. By the way, I believe that that drawing away of support is already happening.
Baroness Randerson
My right honourable friend the Secretary of State made it absolutely clear in her response in the other place this morning—I repeat it here this afternoon—that the union is secure and that this Government are committed to it in every respect, but that does not mean that there can be a lack of respect for people who come from different backgrounds. It is absolutely essential that the future of Northern Ireland is based on respect for those who see themselves from the perspective of Britishness and those who emphasise their Irishness. The two have lived together for the past 20 years as the peace process has developed, and that must continue. There must be mutual respect and respect for democratic decisions. I think that anyone who thought that supporting, or giving tacit approval to, protests on the streets of Belfast now realises that they have dealt with a very dangerous situation.
Lord Kilclooney
My Lords, the Question refers to the trouble in Northern Ireland and not Belfast. Can the Minister confirm that there have been hundreds of demonstrations right across Northern Ireland opposing the decision by Belfast City Council to lower the union flag, and that the vast majority of those demonstrations have been peaceful? Will she dissociate herself from the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, who said that peaceful protests should not be allowed? That was an outrageous statement for a Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to make.
Does the Minister realise that the real cause of this problem was in fact the decision of Belfast City Council to lower the union flag from the city hall, that violence was anticipated by the honourable Member for Belfast East, Naomi Long, and that the Alliance Party, in coalition with its colleagues in Sinn Fein and the SDLP, recognised that there was going to be violence? Would it not therefore have been better for the city council to have delayed its decision until January rather than rush it through before Christmas, thereby damaging the retail trade in the city centre of Belfast?
Finally, since the noble Baroness mentioned democracy, does she recall that when we negotiated the Belfast agreement, it was agreed that democracy varied from one country to another? Democracy in Northern Ireland is not simply majority rule. The lowering of the flag at Belfast City Hall has certainly upset the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland, but majority rule does not apply in Northern Ireland. The Belfast agreement made sure that democracy in Northern Ireland meant shared rule in the Assembly at Stormont: in other words, decisions being taken with the consent of the minority. Does the noble Baroness accept that the decision of Belfast City Council was not democratic and did not have the consent of the 45% minority in Belfast?
Baroness Randerson
The noble Lord is correct in saying that there have been protests across Northern Ireland. There has been a small number of violent protests in other places, but there has been concentration in the media on Belfast because that is where the vast majority of problems have occurred. The Secretary of State has emphasised the importance of peaceful discussion in a democracy where we are able to protest and gather on the streets, but it is through discussion that we will get change. It is always very important to bear that in mind.
The noble Lord makes a point about the timing of the decision of Belfast City Council. It made the decision according to its own standing orders and established democratic procedures. I agree with the noble Lord that the retail trade is bearing the brunt of these protests and the disruption caused. That was particularly acute in the pre-Christmas period.