Control of Donations and Regulation of Loans etc. (Extension of the Prescribed Period) (Northern Ireland) Order 2013

Lord McAvoy Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for her clear and full explanation of the order. I think that it was appreciated by everyone. The forthright contribution made by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, and the fascinating speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, which took us down memory lane, did no harm to our discussions. I think that everyone in this Room understands why the legislation was passed in the first place, and while there is a desire for uniformity throughout the United Kingdom, the kingdom is also flexible and realistic enough to know when it has to bend, when it has to manoeuvre, and when it has to bring forward different legislation for different parts of the country. Unfortunately and tragically, this legislation was necessary, and indeed most folk would deem that it is still necessary. The Minister has mentioned the recent events which serve to underline the fact that when it comes to measures like these in Northern Ireland, the word to use must be “caution”. We have to be very careful that we do not introduce any unintended consequences.

Let me state right away that the Official Opposition support the Government in their position on this order. We hope, of course, that we can move as quickly as possible to a situation of full transparency regarding these donations, but nevertheless it is clear that that will have to be a gradual process. As has been mentioned, the Electoral Commission is much respected and the Opposition is practically foursquare with its views on the order. We want to see it amended as soon as possible so that voters can see how parties are funded, but as I mentioned earlier, caution must come first. I also welcome the announcement about the timing of the draft Bill to see how quickly it is envisaged that we can move forward.

When it comes to the draft Bill, I want to put one inquiry to the Minister today. Will that Bill raise the issue of double-jobbing? I am not quite sure about all the intricacies, but I have been told to put the question and to get a response. As I say, we support the order and the retrospective principle contained in it. It is only right that there should be retrospection, apart from any information that would enable donors and lenders to be identified. It has to be a mixture of innovation and caution. In Northern Ireland matters, that is always the right thing to do.

Public opinion research shows consistent support for the introduction of transparency into the funding of political parties in Northern Ireland. The Electoral Commission has informed me that the most recent survey, carried out in December 2012, found that 62% of the respondents felt that information about who donates to political parties should be made available to the public. Some 7% said that it should remain confidential while 31% did not mind either way. That sounds like a familiar figure. We need to deal with this situation so that the Electoral Commission is not legally bound to publish something. We would like to see a fully transparent scheme, but surely we all understand why we are moving slowly on it.

In conclusion, as I have said, the Official Opposition support what the Government are doing here. Our Front Bench Members have discussed these matters with the Government and we are prepared to support an extension of the prescribed period, it is hoped for a final time, having received the assurances announced by the Minister that very soon there will be moves to bring Northern Ireland into line with the rest of the UK in terms of transparency around political donations. There needs to be a change, but we acknowledge that there is no agreement between the political parties in Northern Ireland about thresholds and the amount of information to be made available on individuals, security matters and other issues. However, they are not drawbacks or obstacles but opportunities to further advance the situation in Northern Ireland so that it comes more into line with the rest of the United Kingdom. We support the order.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate and welcome the fact that the order has received so much support. I shall endeavour to answer as many points as I can.

The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, accepted that there should be a move to full transparency in time, and I believe that that feeling is shared around this Room. Both the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, and the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, pointed to the 2010 consultation, in which two-thirds of respondents supported disclosure and transparency. I liked the comment that we should proceed with patience and understanding.

I believe that it was the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, who made the important point that political parties can publish, if they wish, these details. It is my understanding that the Alliance Party has commenced that process. Once some political parties start to publish, I believe that others will follow—the Alliance has started; others will follow—and I hope that that will hasten the eventual move to full transparency.

Several noble Lords referred to retrospective disclosure. To avoid confusion in relation to whether disclosure will apply to past donations or future donations made during the extended prescribed period—that is, until September 2014—we intend to provide that the identities of those who have made donations or loans in the past without knowing that their details might be released are not published when the prescribed period ends. People donating now, during the current prescribed period, will not find their names and details published. Retrospective disclosure is therefore addressed and dealt with and will not apply.

The Government are, however, committed to the disclosure of other information which would not identify donors. That information might include whether the donation came from a corporation or an individual, the nationality of that individual and the amount of the donation, but none of those would identify the name or address of the individual.

It is important to emphasise that the Electoral Commission does very rigorous checks in Northern Ireland on donations and loans. Although the general regulations on disclosure to the Electoral Commission are the same as those in the rest of Britain—beyond the publication, of course—the checks that the Electoral Commission does in Northern Ireland are more rigorous than in the rest of Britain. In other words, it goes to greater lengths to satisfy itself on the genuineness of the information that it is given.

The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, asked about the significance of 30 September 2014. Its significance is that it is the earliest possible date. The Electoral Commission requires that the system moves to greater transparency as soon as possible. That needs primary legislation. The estimate is of how quickly primary legislation can go through this House and the other place and, following that, how quickly the regulations can be implemented. Responses to the Electoral Commission are made quarterly and that is the end of the quarter when this can reasonably be expected to happen. As I said, and as noble Lords will have noted, a draft Bill will be published next week.

The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, also asked about the definition of “regulated recipients”. It is defined in Schedule 7 to the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. It applies throughout the country, including Northern Ireland. It covers members of political parties, members of associations and holders of elected office, so I think that it probably would apply to the noble Lord in his previous life and career.

I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, has pledged his support. It is important that we have the widest possible support, particularly cross-community support in Northern Ireland. I am pleased that he accepts that the process will be gradual. He asked a specific question about whether double-jobbing would be addressed in the draft Bill. The issue was covered in public consultation last year and, although I cannot at this stage reveal the contents of the draft Bill, it is clearly on the agenda of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.

I am pleased that the order has received such a warm welcome, which I hope will ensure its speedy acceptance in the Chamber next week.