Anonymous Registration (Northern Ireland) (No. 2) Order 2014

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd July 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

That the draft orders and regulations laid before the House on 4 June be approved.

Relevant document: 2nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Considered in Grand Committee on Monday 30 June.

Motions agreed.

Northern Ireland: On-the-runs

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 8th April 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether fresh evidence is being sought by the police on any of the persons on the list of “on the runs” submitted by Sinn Fein to the Northern Ireland Office who have been sent letters informing them that they are not currently wanted for questioning, arrest or prosecution.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, responsibility for the investigation and prosecution of individuals rests with the police and prosecuting authorities. The right honourable Lady Justice Hallett DBE has been appointed to conduct an independent review of the administrative scheme to deal with so-called on-the-runs. This inquiry will provide a full public account of the operation and extent of the scheme. I expect the report to be completed by the end of June 2014 for the purpose of its full publication.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

I know that my noble friend fully understands the sense of shock and outrage which now exists as a result of the revelation a few weeks ago that the previous Government arranged for secret letters to be sent to more than 150 terrorist suspects at the behest of Sinn Fein. Mr Gerry Adams said that,

“it would be better if there was an invisible process”—

words quoted at the recent Downey trial before its collapse. Why on earth did this Government continue the shameful collusion with Sinn Fein by allowing more letters to be sent out by officials at the Northern Ireland Office until the end of 2012? The Government have made it clear that the letters confer no permanent immunity from prosecution. Will my noble friend give us an absolute assurance that the police in all parts of our country are fully aware that we want them to gather evidence and bring terrorists to justice for their shameful crimes?

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, if at any time we had been presented with a scheme that amounted to immunity, exemption or amnesty, we would have stopped it, consistent with the opposition of both coalition parties to the previous Government’s Northern Ireland (Offences) Bill in 2005, which proposed an amnesty. The current Government continued the scheme on the basis of continuing with existing cases to the overwhelming part until 2012, and continued work on it until the early part of 2013. Noble Lords must wait for the outcome of the review to know the full details.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has given two sets of Answers to Written Questions recently and made clear that the inquiry to be conducted by Lady Justice Hallett has no power of compulsion. Why is that? Why is Lady Justice Hallett constrained and not holding an inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005?

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, it is an administrative review and will not be conducted according to the 2005 Act. This Government have always been clear that we have reservations about the use of public inquiries to deal with the past. There is an issue about the length of time that many of them take and there is in this case a clear public interest in early publication of the report.

[Lord Trimble (Con)]

My Lords, I wonder whether the Government intend that the inquiry—or review, as it is now termed—will go ahead without having heard from the people who designed the process, the then Secretary of State and Mr Gerard Adams. Is it satisfactory to try to operate without having the power to compel Mr Adams to come to give evidence?

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, government officials will of course appear before the inquiry and will give evidence. Others will be invited to do so. It is entirely up to Lady Justice Hallett how she reads her remit in that regard, from whom she will request evidence and how far she takes the scope of her inquiry, but, for the reasons to which I have already referred, she is asked to report by the end of June at the latest.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, I raise a matter which does not seek to touch on the merits or the demerits of the scheme: a purely technical, legal matter. Is any person who has received a letter as described in the Question in any way protected from the law of citizen’s arrest, or would it in fact need legislation to produce such a result?

[Baroness Randerson]

The intention of the letters was to present a statement of fact at a point in time. As such, they did not grant immunity, exemption or amnesty. To do that would have required legislation.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, we should never forget those members of our Armed Forces who lost their lives in the Hyde Park bombing, their families and all victims of the other atrocities associated with the Troubles in Northern Ireland.

As part of a complex process that made peace and stability in Northern Ireland possible, the previous Labour Government issued on-the-run letters to people who had reason to believe that they might be under investigation. As stated by both the Opposition and the Government, that was not an amnesty and letters made clear to recipients that, should evidence come to light in future, they could be prosecuted. However, the scheme once again draws attention to the need for long-term solutions on issues of the past. Can the Minister reassure the House that she still believes that a positive outcome will be reached from the ongoing all-party talks, and are the Government fully engaged in trying to make that happen?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

I share the noble Lord’s sentiments in relation to sympathies towards the families of victims—indeed, towards victims throughout the Troubles. I understand entirely the considerable anger that the events of the past few weeks have stirred among them and among others in the community in Northern Ireland. I am sure that those who were in government during the early years of the on-the-runs scheme will welcome the opportunity in due course to give evidence. There are five inquiries of various sorts being undertaken into this process and I am sure that they will welcome that opportunity. I can confirm that the Government are committed to ensuring that there is a long-term solution to the problems of the past in Northern Ireland.

[Lord Tebbit (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend consider extending the terms of this inquiry so that we can know whether there were any letters or similar inducements given to assist the progress of the ceasefire talks which led eventually to the Good Friday agreement? It is my understanding that certain proceedings were held up to assist that process. It would be interesting to know whether that is indeed true.

[Baroness Randerson]

The terms of reference of Lady Justice Hallett’s inquiry have been set out. Indeed, work has started on it. However, I am sure that if she were to come upon evidence that led her to be concerned about issues of the nature that my noble friend has referred to, it would be within her remit for her to make recommendations on that for the future.

Wales: Economy

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Monday 7th April 2014 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, for securing the debate today on this important issue. I have to remark on the change of rhetoric from the Opposition. A year ago, when unemployment was still higher in Wales and the statistics were not so good, we discussed this issue and the Labour Party told us that it was all the UK Government’s fault that Wales was lagging so badly behind. Now that unemployment in Wales has fallen and there are signs of recovery, which we would all welcome strongly, of course, the rhetoric from the Benches opposite is that this recovery is due entirely to the Welsh Government: the UK Government bear no responsibility for it at all.

The truth of the matter, as all noble Lords actually know, is that we all strongly welcome the fact that Wales is at last starting to catch up. Several noble Lords have referred to the fact that the problems with the Welsh economy have existed for many decades, and GVA—to which the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, referred—has been a persistent problem as it has declined over the years. These are not sudden problems and it is absolutely clear that there are levers in the hands of the Welsh Government, but the macroeconomic levers of course remain with the UK Government. It would be helpful if the noble Baroness took some of the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, and adopted a more open-minded approach to this.

The truth is that, since 2010, the UK economy has gone from rescue to recovery. Wales is now in a great position to take advantage of this. The economy is growing and, as the Chancellor outlined in the Budget, Wales is growing faster than forecast, as is the UK. We are now growing faster than Germany, faster than Japan and faster than the US. I remind the party opposite that it claimed that none of this growth would be possible if the coalition Government continued to take the difficult decisions to deal with the deficit. It predicted disaster, and disaster we have not seen.

I will refer to one or two issues relating to employment. It should be emphasised that since the end of the first quarter of 2010, employment in the private sector in Wales has increased by 114,000. Over the past quarter alone, private sector employment increased by 12,000. Although there has been, as the noble Baroness said, a decline in the number of people employed in the public sector, that decline has been proportionately very much lower than in the rest of the UK and has been very significantly outstripped by the number of jobs created in the private sector.

Reference was made to youth unemployment, which of course seriously worries us all, but youth unemployment was a long-standing problem in Wales. It rose by 74% under the previous Government. It is therefore hugely welcome that the youth claimant count was down by 3,500 in the most recent statistics in February last year. Once again, there appears to be a better picture.

The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, referred to women in the labour market. I am so pleased that she drew attention to that. Since May 2010, the number of women employed in Wales has increased by 36,000. I draw her attention to the fact that, on International Women’s Day, I hosted an event in the Wales Office with leading businesswomen and women in academia in Wales. She asked whether the UK Government had a similar scheme to the one in Wales. The Women’s Business Council has existed for a considerable time and is designed to encourage women at the top of business and to ensure that there is a better spread throughout the business world.

More people have been going out to work in Wales than at any time in our history. Since the election, 81,000 more people are in work in Wales. The employment rate, as has been noted, has increased by more than in any other region of the UK over the year, and unemployment in Wales is now below the UK average, at 6.7%. We absolutely agree that times have been tough for households as the economy recovers, throughout the UK and in Wales, but it is important to acknowledge that, last year, average earnings in Wales increased by 4.4%. That is more than twice the rate of inflation, inflation now being 1.7%, at a four-year low.

Central to the coalition Government’s measures to support families and those in work is the increase in the income tax personal allowance. Only last week, a further 13,000 people in Wales were taken out of income tax—in fact, that happened only yesterday—and 144,000 have already been taken out of income tax altogether in Wales. With our further increase in the personal allowance announced for April 2015, a total of 155,000 people will have been taken out of income tax in Wales as a result of the Government’s decisions. That will make a real difference and will be worth £805 per year to those people, providing a boost to living standards. I also say that, with 1.2 million people working in Wales, virtually everyone in work in Wales will have benefited from the income tax cut to the personal allowance. I see that there is a Division.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen) (Lab)]

My Lords, there is a Division in the Chamber and this Committee will therefore stand adjourned for 10 minutes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

Thank you, my Lords, I will resume. I wanted to speak about the support for business that the UK Government have been undertaking. In the Budget, the annual investment allowance was doubled to £500,000 from the end of 2015 to support businesses across the UK in investing and expanding. There was a business energy package, which is important for Wales because businesses like Celsa have high energy requirements in Wales. That package will be worth up to £240 million to businesses between 2016 and 2019. We are also extending by three years the period in which enhanced capital allowances are available to companies investing in enterprise zones: until March 2020.

Mention has been made of the investment in broadband. I remind noble Lords that this is UK government money. The UK Government have provided £69 million to Superfast Cymru and £150 million to tackle mobile coverage across the UK. Some £10 million has gone to Cardiff and £6 million will go to Newport for the Super-Connected Cities Project, so the concern about broadband connectivity is right but it is important that we pay attention to the speed with which it is being tackled, as indeed the UK Government are tackling the issues of infrastructure across Wales and the UK.

The noble Baroness referred to a war on Wales. Scrutiny is not war, nor is criticism. With government comes responsibility—the responsibility to deliver. One must not confuse wanting the best for Wales, pointing out where there are problems, with talking Wales down. It is important that the Labour Government in Wales take that scrutiny on the chin, if I may put it that way, and accept that they have to take responsibility.

I welcome the constructive comments from the noble Lords, Lord Griffiths and Lord Rowe-Beddoe, about the key aspects of our economy, the higher education institutions and the airport, which are essential to the growth of the Welsh economy. This debate has highlighted the fact that Wales is on the up but there is a long way to go. The proof is there that this Government are creating the right conditions for growth, but we fully accept that our job is not done and that there is still a long way to go.

Committee adjourned at 7.07 pm.

Anonymous Registration (Northern Ireland) Order 2014

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd April 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 24 February be approved.

Relevant document: 22nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 31 March.

Motion agreed.

Anonymous Registration (Northern Ireland) Order 2014

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Monday 31st March 2014 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Anonymous Registration (Northern Ireland) Order 2014.

Relevant document: 22nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, the order was laid before the House on 24 February. It is the first in a series of six statutory instruments to establish a scheme of anonymous registration in Northern Ireland. Four of those instruments were published for consultation in September of last year. The changes are being introduced in a series of instruments for technical reasons.

This first order extends provisions made for Great Britain in primary legislation to Northern Ireland, with amendments to reflect some differences in the electoral systems in Northern Ireland. It also makes other changes required to primary legislation for Northern Ireland, predominantly in relation to local elections. Other instruments to follow will include regulations to implement the system of anonymous registration in respect of different elections and to prescribe provisions relating to political donations by anonymous electors.

As noble Lords will know, the full electoral register lists the name and address of everyone who is entitled to vote. This is used mainly for elections and referendums but can be used for other purposes, such as the prevention and detection of crime and eligibility for jury service. It may also be seen on request by any member of the public, under supervision. Anonymous registration ensures that the names and addresses of individuals who are at risk do not appear on the full register. Those at risk may include victims of domestic violence, witnesses in certain criminal cases and other vulnerable people who wish to vote but whose safety could be compromised by the inclusion of their details on the electoral register.

As in Great Britain, individuals will qualify for anonymous registration if the safety of the applicant or of another person in their household would be at risk if the register contained their name or address. I will bring regulations before the House later this year which will detail the evidence required to show that a person is at risk. As in the draft regulations published last September, a person will be able to show that they are at risk either by presenting a court order demonstrating the risk or by obtaining an attestation from a senior professional—for example, someone in the police—stating that they are at risk.

If a person is shown to be at risk, the scheme works by replacing the name and address of vulnerable individuals in the register with a number. A full list of those voters will be held securely by the chief electoral officer for cross-referencing. This prevents their details being available to someone who might try to trace their whereabouts by means of the electoral register.

Anonymous registration was introduced in Great Britain by Section 10 of and Schedule 1 to the Electoral Administration Act 2006. The scheme was not extended to Northern Ireland at the time due to a number of differences in Northern Ireland that needed to be taken into account. These differences included the additional checks on identity used in Northern Ireland to prevent electoral fraud, and the operation of the jury system in Northern Ireland. However, Section 1 of the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006 gave the Secretary of State the power to make equivalent provision for Northern Ireland by Order in Council at a later date.

Many of the Great Britain provisions are extended to Northern Ireland without amendment in this order, but there are four main differences between the provisions for Great Britain and those being put in place for Northern Ireland, either in this order or in the instruments that will follow.

First, the duration of an anonymous entry will be longer than it is in Great Britain. Applications for an anonymous entry must be made annually in Great Britain, in the same way as applications for registration. In Northern Ireland, an anonymous entry can last for a maximum of five years. This makes practical sense in the context of the continuous registration system in Northern Ireland. If persons do not have to reapply to be registered annually, it would be onerous to require vulnerable individuals to reapply for an anonymous entry on an annual basis. This difference is also intended to help the PSNI and other bodies manage the greater volumes of applications for attestations that are expected in Northern Ireland because of the security situation there and the number of people who may be considered at risk.

In view of the longer, five-year timeframe in Northern Ireland, this order allows the chief electoral officer to terminate a person’s entitlement to an anonymous entry in some circumstances. The regulations brought forward later this year will set out the details of how the chief electoral officer can make this determination. For example, if the chief electoral officer receives information that a person is no longer part of the household to whom the relevant evidence applies, their entitlement to anonymous registration should be reviewed.

Secondly, as noble Lords will be aware, all voters in Northern Ireland are required to show photographic identification at the polling station to receive their ballot paper. This is incompatible with the principle of maintaining a voter’s anonymity and so, under this order, those with an anonymous entry will not be able to vote in person. Instead, this order makes provision for anonymous electors to be automatically eligible for a postal vote. This is to prevent a person who is anonymously registered being questioned at a polling station about their identity.

Thirdly, linked to the provisions on postal voting, the order makes it possible for an anonymous elector to submit a tendered ballot paper by post. It is possible to apply for a tendered ballot paper when a person states that they have lost their ballot paper or believes someone else has voted on their behalf. However, a tendered ballot paper can usually be submitted only in person at the polling station. Persons with an anonymous entry will be allowed to submit a tendered ballot paper by post instead to prevent them being disadvantaged by the requirement to use a postal vote.

Lastly, persons with anonymous entries will remain eligible for jury service, as they are in Great Britain. However, because jury service selection operates in a different way in Northern Ireland, the provisions in this order that deal with this matter differ from the England and Wales provisions. The order ensures that any anonymous elector information is protected when the jurors list is passed from the chief electoral officer to the Courts and Tribunals Service.

There have been two phases of consultation on anonymous registration in Northern Ireland. The first was conducted by the previous Government in 2008. The second took place in 2013 on the draft legislation. The consultations have allowed us to take account of the views of a range of devolved bodies that will be involved in implementing the scheme, including the Northern Ireland Courts and Tribunals Service, the Police Service of Northern Ireland and health and social care boards, as well as political parties and groups representing those most likely to benefit from the new system.

I hope that noble Lords will agree it is important that people who wish to exercise their right to vote are able to do so without fear or threat to their safety. This order gives vulnerable people in Northern Ireland the same protection as those in Great Britain. I commend it to the Committee.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her thorough exposition of the proposed legislation. I should say right from the start—because it always needs to be said in relation to Northern Ireland—that we are fully supportive of the legislation. My honourable friend in the House of Commons, Stephen Pound, in a very entertaining speech, asked a number of questions. Some of them were not, to my book, completely answered, so I will go through them and see if I can get a wee bit more information out of the noble Baroness.

It has been stated by the Minister and others that the necessity for this legislation in Northern Ireland is—as it is in the rest of the United Kingdom—mainly to support women in what they face when being pursued by former partners or husbands or subjected to violence. So the legislation is quite in order.

However, on the higher percentage that is envisaged, it is worth commenting that the higher percentage of anonymous voting approvals for Northern Ireland is, according to the words of Mr Robathan, 40 times greater in Northern Ireland than in the rest of the United Kingdom. That signifies that there is a continuing situation in which people need anonymity in voting, and the sooner we can move away from that, the better. However, the need for this legislation is still quite clear because women have enough to put up with without being subjected to that as well.

--- Later in debate ---

I hope that we will have a wee bit more elucidation on the points raised in questions by Mr Pound, but I repeat that we are fully supportive of the Government’s proposals in this field. They are absolutely necessary, and they have our full support.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord for his support on this. I will do my very best to answer the questions that he feels still need to be answered.

The noble Lord is right that the issue of supporting victims of domestic violence is a key mover behind the legislation. It was introduced for Great Britain very specifically at the request of groups supporting victims of domestic violence. But it is also aimed at supporting, for example, people who are part of the witness protection scheme. I am sure that the noble Lord will appreciate that there are far more people in that situation in Northern Ireland than in Great Britain.

There are currently 1,739 people in the anonymous registration scheme in Great Britain. My right honourable friend the Minister of State in the other place referred to the expectation that there would be around 40 times that number in Northern Ireland. This figure is based on the numbers known to have benefited from existing programmes to protect individuals at risk; for example, 1,805 individuals have benefited from the special purchase of evacuated dwellings scheme in Northern Ireland. Of course, this is just one group of eligible individuals. I mentioned the witness protection scheme earlier, but members of other groups might be judged to be at risk, such as prison officers. I could give other examples, but that one number—1,805—shows that proportionately the numbers would be around 40 times greater for Northern Ireland. Therefore, one of the reasons that the anonymous registration will apply for a five-year term is to enable those involved in the registration and attestation process to deal effectively with the number of requests that we estimate will come forward.

The noble Lord also asked whether Irish court orders would be recognised and treated in a spirit of reciprocity. It is very unusual to reference court orders from outside the UK in domestic legislation because to do so would prevent Parliament scrutinising changes to the law. The Government recognise that it is highly likely that some people at risk in Northern Ireland will be beneficiaries of an Irish court order. On the subject of domestic violence, people marrying across the border—with one partner from the Republic and one from Northern Ireland—is obviously a very common thing. Therefore, we will make clear in guidance that, when an attestation is considered, if an applicant holds a similar injunction to those listed in the order from Ireland or any other member state of the EU, an attestation will be made. It is not done in an identical manner. A court order would mean that the anonymous registration would be automatic. An Irish court order would lead to an attestation process, as I understand it. It is important to bear in mind that there is a legal issue here; that is why this is being dealt with in this way.

The noble Lord asked about the level of the staff who will make the attestations. As the number of people registered anonymously is likely to be higher than in the rest of Great Britain, it is important that attestation is seen to be no less rigorous than in Great Britain and that it is very rigorously applied. The Government remain of the view that only people who are eligible to attest applications in relation to Great Britain would also be eligible to attest applications in relation to Northern Ireland. So the process will apply at the same level in both cases. It should not be necessary, however, for people applying for anonymous registration to go in and meet the director of social work or the chief constable. We would expect applications to be considered at a lower level within the organisation, and a recommendation would then be made higher up the chain within the organisation. We have consulted the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety in relation to the seniority of social workers who will be eligible to attest applications for anonymous registration. In the case of the PSNI, the attestation will be made at the level of superintendent and above.

I hope that I have answered the noble Lord’s questions and I commend the order to the Committee.

Motion agreed.

Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2014

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Wednesday 26th March 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

That the draft order laid before the House on 24 February be approved.

Relevant document: 22nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 24 March

Motion agreed.

Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2014

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Monday 24th March 2014 Grand Committee

Relevant document: 22nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, this order will enable billing authorities in Wales to continue to contract out certain additional functions relating to the administration and enforcement of council tax, following the making of new regulations in relation to council tax reduction schemes for 2014-15 onwards.

I will first provide a brief overview of the legislative background. The Council Tax Reduction Schemes and Prescribed Requirements (Wales) Regulations 2012 and the Council Tax Reduction Schemes (Default Scheme) (Wales) Regulations 2012 introduced council tax reduction schemes in Wales for 2013-14. Schemes introduced under these regulations are now being successfully operated by local authorities as part of the council tax system.

However, as the 2012 regulations are limited to 2013-14 by virtue of a sunset clause agreed with opposition parties in the National Assembly for Wales, a new set of regulations has been brought forward to govern the operation of the council tax reduction schemes from 2014-15 onwards. These are the Council Tax Reduction Schemes and Prescribed Requirements (Wales) Regulations 2013 and the Council Tax Reduction Schemes (Default Scheme) (Wales) Regulations 2013.

It is now therefore necessary to update the references within the numerous pieces of interrelated subordinate legislation to take into account the new set of regulations that will govern the operation of council tax reduction schemes in Wales from April 2014 onwards. This work includes making the Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2014. The purpose of the 2014 order is to enable billing authorities in Wales to continue to contract out certain additional functions relating to the administration and enforcement of council tax following the making of the 2013 regulations, which will operate from 2014-15 onwards.

This time last year the Committee approved the Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2013. The 2013 order enabled local authorities in Wales, under the Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) Order 1996, to contract out functions connected with the administration and collection of council tax. We wish to ensure that local authorities in Wales continue to have the freedom to contract out these administrative functions. The order being considered today amends the 1996 contracting-out order for Wales by substituting references to the 2012 regulations with references to the 2013 regulations.

The 2014 order will enable local authorities to continue to contract out the following administrative functions: the issuing of council tax reduction decision letters; the payment of a reduction amount under certain circumstances where the billing authority is of the opinion that it would be appropriate; the serving of a penalty notice in connection with an offence committed with a reduction; and the repayment of an amount paid in connection with a penalty related to a local scheme that has been subsequently quashed.

Although this order does not expand on the provisions that are currently in place for the administration of council tax reduction schemes, if it is approved by noble Lords it will carry out an essential function by enabling local authorities in Wales to continue to choose how to deliver their local schemes, whether that is by using internal resources, external providers or a mixture of the two. It is important that we provide local authorities with the tools they need to deliver a cost-effective council tax system. I commend the order to the Grand Committee and I beg to move.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that explanation. It is probably worth dwelling on the fact that this is not just needed because of the sunset clause. We need to go back further than that and think about why this needed to be done in the first place. It was necessary because in 2012 the UK Government abolished council tax benefit as part of the coalition’s Welfare Reform Act 2012. The responsibility for replacement schemes was passed on to local authorities in England and to the devolved Governments in Scotland and Wales. However, when it was handed over, there was of course then a cut of 10% in the funding that had previously helped people pay their council tax.

The IFS warned that 320,000 council tax benefit recipients in Wales would lose, on average, £74 a year and that this would hit the poorest the hardest, as 80% of council tax benefit spending in Wales went to those households with the lowest incomes. Unlike in England, where the IFS says that this approach has left 2.5 million households worse off by an average of £160 a year and has resulted in 500,000 people receiving summonses for non-payment, the Welsh Assembly has thankfully stepped in to protect this entitlement for those 320,000 people in the poorest households through a council tax reduction scheme. As the Minister has described, councils in Wales need to be able to contract out council tax services, as they do other services. For that reason it is important that the draft order is passed as quickly as possible, and the Government have our support in that.

What we have seen this week is a concerted effort—the start of an attack—by the current Government, pointing out problems in Wales. We have seen Grant Shapps come to Wales talking about problems we have had there and a concerted effort by the Daily Mail and the Times. This is an example of Wales understanding the needs and problems of the people and standing side by side with the most vulnerable. I do not suppose we will see any coverage of that in our newspapers in the next few days.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her support for this order. I would point out, in relation to her detailed comments, that my introduction referred to the 1996 scheme on which this is built. This is not a new system. It was introduced all that time ago and it has been adapted to the new council tax reduction schemes.

I make no apology for the fact that the Government have devolved responsibility for this to the Welsh Government. It is my view and that of the Government that this responsibility should lie with the Welsh Government and local authorities. It is right because council tax is levied by local authorities, and arrangements for reduction schemes should therefore also be made at that level.

In relation to the latter part of the noble Baroness’s comments, I would point out that fewer people are this year claiming for council tax reduction than in the previous year. In other words, fewer people are in the difficult circumstances that would ensure that they needed to make such a claim. That is part of the general series of symptoms of an upturn in the economy. The situation in Wales is getting very much better; some indicators suggest that it is doing so at an even faster rate than in the rest of the UK. Council tax is one of the areas of which the previous Labour Government lost control, and I make no apology at all to this Committee for the fact that the Government stepped in to take control. I commend the order to the Committee.

Motion agreed.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 4th March 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)]

1: Clause 6, page 6, line 30, leave out from beginning to “(reserved” and insert—
“( ) The Northern Ireland Act 1998 is amended as follows.
( ) In Schedule 3”

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, on Report I indicated the Government’s intention to bring forward an amendment on a future reduction in the size of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Some noble Lords were concerned about the breadth of the current provision in Clause 6 to make a reduction in the size of the Assembly a reserved matter.

The Bill as it stands would enable the Assembly to legislate, with the Secretary of State’s consent, to reduce the number of Members returned to it for each Westminster constituency. Currently six are returned from each of the 18 constituencies, which makes a total of 108 members. In Committee, views were expressed that the Secretary of State’s ability to withhold consent to such an arrangement was not a sufficient safeguard. It would be open to the larger parties to legislate for a very substantial reduction in size. Smaller parties might suffer disproportionately if the number of Members returned for each constituency was significantly reduced.

The Government recognise those concerns and we have reflected carefully. Many in Northern Ireland hold that, at 108 Members, the Assembly is too large. However, it is certainly not our intention that it should shrink dramatically. When it was established, the intention was that it should be a widely inclusive body, and that remains essential to the healthy functioning of the Northern Ireland settlement.

This amendment would limit any reduction in the Assembly’s size to five Members per constituency. It also requires that any such reduction must have cross-community support in the Assembly. Of course, the decision to reduce the size of the Assembly is ultimately a matter for the Assembly itself. The effect of the amendment is to confine the option to a reduction of one Member per constituency. If the Assembly decides to take that up, smaller parties and minority voices will still be well represented within the Assembly.

A number of noble Lords have indicated to me in the past day or so that, in speaking to these amendments this afternoon, they intend to refer to issues that have arisen in the past week in relation to the issuing of letters to so-called on-the-runs. I assure your Lordships that I will address that issue when I sum up on this amendment, once I have listened to noble Lords’ points and questions.

I hope that your Lordships will agree that the proposed amendment offers sufficient protection and that they will feel able to support it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I shall respond in two parts. I shall first deal with the amendments in this group, and then I shall deal with the issue of the letters.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, made a point about the potential impact of boundary changes in Westminster constituencies on the Assembly in Northern Ireland. This issue could be looked at again in the context of any reduction in the number of parliamentary constituencies. Indeed, we would expect that to happen. Under the provisions of the Bill, it would be open to the Assembly to reverse any reduction if the number of Westminster constituencies were to be reduced. Therefore, it could restore the number of representatives per Westminster constituency to six, for example, to restore the overall size of the Assembly.

I take issue with the point that the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, made about this not being the time to give the Assembly additional powers. It is important to reassure noble Lords that there is no plan immediately to introduce all these potential changes. The Northern Ireland Office and the Government are acutely aware of the importance of timing and of dealing with this in the appropriate manner at the appropriate time. As one or two noble Lords have said, it is important that we develop and trust devolution. The point was made that the problems we have had in the past week are problems associated not with devolved government but with the UK Government. Therefore, it is not appropriate to say that because we have a problem now we should not trust devolution. It needs the opportunity to grow.

I now turn to the letters issued to so-called on-the-runs. One or two noble Lords made a point about the timing of what I shall say in relation to the debate as a whole. I remind noble Lords that we have tried to keep the House informed. We have issued two Written Statements, and in the other place there have been questions to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the Attorney-General about them. I used the opportunity of the Bill to try to overcome the procedural constraints which I understand are frustrating noble Lords. I am trying to make the best use of the time available. I assure the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, that I will do my very best, within the constraints of the procedure in this House, which is agreed with the Opposition, to ensure that there is adequate time to satisfy noble Lords on the various points that they have raised.

I entirely understand that many noble Lords are very keen to set on record their deeply felt concerns about recent developments in Northern Ireland. The Bill, of course, does not directly bear upon those concerns, but it does indeed touch on the issue of confidence in the institutions. It is important to bear in mind that, throughout the past week, it has been clear that Northern Ireland is no longer in a position in which our business can be derailed by political disagreements in quite the same way as was possible in the past. It is essential to the peaceful and prosperous future of Northern Ireland that ordinary, good government goes on. I acknowledge that this House has not yet had the opportunity for debate that many noble Lords are still seeking. However, I point out that, since the High Court judgment in the case of John Downey was delivered on 21 February, there have been, as I said, two Written Statements by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on 25 and 28 February. The Attorney-General has also made a Written Ministerial Statement.

Looking at the substantive facts as far as they are known, on coming into office in May 2010, the Government were made aware of a list of names submitted by Sinn Fein to the previous Government under an agreement they had reached to clarify the status of OTRs. These were people living outside the United Kingdom who believed that if they returned they would be wanted by the police for questioning in connection with terrorist offences committed before the Belfast agreement. One or two noble Lords have asked why such a scheme was not available to loyalists. It is my understanding that there had been no request for a similar scheme.

Under the scheme, the police and, in some cases, the Public Prosecution Service for Northern Ireland checked whether sufficient evidence existed in each case at that time for these individuals to be questioned, arrested or prosecuted if they returned to Northern Ireland or any other part of the United Kingdom. If it was found that they were not wanted by the police and that there was no prospect of any prosecution based on the evidence available, the individuals were informed of that fact by a letter from a Northern Ireland Office official. The letters did not amount to immunity, exemption or amnesty from arrest. I say to the noble Baroness that they were not letters of comfort. They were factual statements.

The fact that the letters did not confer immunity, exemption or amnesty was the situation in the past and remains the case now. No recipient of such a letter should be in any doubt that, if evidence emerges after the date on which the letter was issued in connection with terrorist offences committed before the Belfast agreement, they will be liable for arrest and prosecution.

[Lord Maginnis of Drumglass]

Is that not pie in the sky? The reality is that these people are now free to come back without interference from the police. Is the Minister honestly trying to convince us this evening that there would be the degree of further investigation that would produce fresh evidence? The Minister knows different, and I certainly know different.

[Baroness Randerson]

I beg to disagree with the noble Lord; I certainly do not know different. I am aware that, for example, the Historical Enquiries Team is looking assiduously at a number of cases and will continue to do so. It is important that the noble Lord takes account of the fact that there will be an inquiry into this, to which I will come in a moment. That will establish many of the facts that the noble Lord seeks.

[Baroness O'Loan]

I listened very carefully to what the noble Baroness has just said, and I want her to clarify whether there was an investigation before the issue of these letters—which proved to be a comfort to some, I have to say—or whether the police were tasked to check whether there were outstanding warrants. Had there been an investigation there would have had to have been a proper review of the investigation file in respect of specific events and the extent to which individuals were linked to them. Was that investigation conducted or was a lesser exercise conducted, which simply examined whether there was sufficient information to justify a warrant for the arrest of someone? I hope that the noble Baroness understands the question.

[Baroness Randerson]

It is my understanding that inquiries were made with the PSNI as to whether the people on the list were wanted for specific offences. However, it is important that this will be examined by the inquiry, which will examine the nature of the whole process, and we will get far more detailed answers than that as a result of the inquiry.

I was saying to noble Lords that people who receive such letters should not consider them to be an amnesty. On the basis that those were simply factual letters, the current Government agreed in May 2010 that the list of names submitted by Sinn Fein to the previous Administration could continue to be checked. That answers questions from one or two noble Lords.

[Lord Cormack]

As my noble friend will be so kind as to do some investigating, can she check on one very important thing? There was a civil case in which certain people were judged to be guilty of the Omagh bombing. Can she find out whether letters were sent to any of those people?

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank my noble friend for that question. I am certain that that will be covered by the inquiry. If it will not, I will of course ensure that he receives an answer to that question in writing.

The Secretary of State has made it clear, and I reinforce it, that if at any time we had been presented with a scheme that amounted to immunity, exemption or amnesty, we would have stopped that scheme, consistent with the opposition of both coalition parties to the previous Government’s Northern Ireland (Offences) Bill 2005, which noble Lords will recall was withdrawn because of the level of opposition to it. We believe in the application of the rule of law and due process, regardless of whether a person is in possession of a letter or will be eligible for early release under the terms of the Belfast agreement. We will take whatever steps are necessary to make it clear to all recipients of letters arising from the scheme, in a manner that will satisfy the courts and the public, that any letters issued cannot be relied upon to avoid questioning or prosecution for offences where information or evidence becomes available now or later. In the light of the error identified in the case of John Downey, the Prime Minister announced—

[Baroness O'Loan]

The Minister has just said that if information became available now or in future, there would be no impediment to prosecution. What would the situation be in respect of evidence or information which is currently in the possession of police but which has not been processed to an extent that it becomes attributable or linked to those named individuals? Will that information be taken into account or is there a line in the sand, and the only information that can be used to prosecute in the future in respect of these named individuals is that which comes to the attention of the police in the future?

[Baroness Randerson]

I fear that the noble Baroness will be frustrated by my answer, which is that that will be clearly part of the information that will become public once the inquiry is finished.

I was referring to the error in the case of John Downey. The Prime Minister announced on 27 February that a judge would be appointed to provide an independent review of the administrative scheme, and I have referred to that several times already this afternoon. I wish to set out the terms of reference of the review.

[Lord Mawhinney]

I thank my noble friend for giving way. In reference to her answer to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, when this inquiry is held and a Minister is asked the question that the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, has just posed, is the Minister going to answer that question? In that case, your Lordships’ House is being told that an independent inquiry is worthy of an answer but your Lordships’ House is not.

[Baroness Randerson]

I am certainly not saying that your Lordships’ House is not worthy of an answer, but I am anxious that the answer should be legally consistent and robust. This situation has arisen in the last week. It is important that the Northern Ireland Office and the Government are able to check their records to look in detail at the history of the scheme. They will do so as part of the evidence that they give to the inquiry. It is obvious that both civil servants and current and previous Ministers will give evidence to this inquiry, and it is important that the overall picture is taken to make sure that it is accurate. I am sure that, once this inquiry reports, noble Lords will want to examine the outcome of that inquiry in considerable detail.

[Lord Trimble]

The noble Baroness may or may not be aware that for the past few months a Select Committee of this House has been engaged in post-legislative scrutiny of the Inquiries Act 2005, and I am a member of that committee. It has now wound up its proceedings and finalised its report, which will be published on about 11 or 12 March. When that happens, I ask the noble Baroness to draw it to the attention of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, because there are things that will be in that report that will bear very much on the inquiry that has just been announced, in the light of which it would be wise to make some changes to the way in which the Government are proceeding. I do not want to go into further detail. I happen to know what is in the report, but it is not published, and it is not appropriate for me to say further than this. But I urge the Minister to make sure that the Secretary of State gets her head around some of the significant recommendations in that report.

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[Baroness Randerson]

I thank my noble friend for that comment, and I certainly give that undertaking. It might be useful if we were to have further discussions on that outside this Chamber.

It may be useful if I set out the terms of reference of the review. The aim will be to produce a full public account of the operation and extent of the administrative scheme for OTRs. I think that that answers the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, in terms of reassuring her that it will deal with her questions. It will determine whether any letters sent through the scheme contained errors other than, of course, the one that we know about. It will make recommendations, as necessary, on this or related matters that are drawn to the attention of the inquiry. Noble Lords will see that this is a very broad remit.

The persons conducting the review will have full access to all government papers on the operation of the scheme and will be free to interview key individuals in the Civil Service and the police, and any others who are willing to give evidence. The report should be provided to the Secretary of State by the end of May 2014 for full publication.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, who asked a question about the Bloody Sunday investigation, that the police must, of course, carry out investigations when serious offences have been alleged, and the actions of soldiers are not beyond that scrutiny. However, this is an ongoing investigation.

The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, referred to disengagement by the Government in relation to Northern Ireland. I emphasise that it was the Northern Ireland parties which invited Dr Haass to help resolve critical issues. However, the Government took a very close and active part in supporting those talks, as they are doing in continuing efforts to resolve the problems. The Secretary of State has spent an enormous amount of time dealing with the parties, and the Irish Government, on Haass issues.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne, pointed out that the recent crisis concerns UK Government procedures and is not a crisis of devolution. I emphasise to the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, that the inquiry will reveal how, and in what way, Ministers were involved. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, spoke very powerfully. We recognise the strong feelings about the OTR issue and, indeed, the pain it has caused the families of people who have been murdered over the years. It is important that we bear it in mind that families and friends in Northern Ireland and beyond are suffering as a result of this issue.

[Lord Maginnis of Drumglass]

I get the impression that the noble Baroness is coming to the end of her response. She has clarified the issue about the soldiers involved in the 1972 incident in Londonderry, and I understand that answer. However, I still fail to understand the issue of the 187 letters because she was not clear on that. She said that they are not letters of comfort because the people concerned can be further investigated. When I asked her whether she had knowledge of the police investigating any of those 187 cases, she talked vaguely about the Historical Enquiries Team. Therefore, I extend the question: are any of the 187 people currently being investigated by the HET? I hope by now that she has some knowledge of this.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, the House has been extremely flexible about what we have discussed. We are really supposed to be discussing Amendment 1 and whether or not we should adopt it. My noble friend the Minister has answered quite a few questions and we ought to let her wind up this debate and move on.

[Baroness Randerson]

I will, however, answer the noble Lord’s question. I am not speaking of specific numbers because that is also for the inquiry, but the issue is this: letters were sent following inquiries from a number of people. Those who received a letter that said “There are no known issues against you” were therefore free, if they wished, to return without fear of prosecution. Not everyone who made an inquiry received a letter of that nature. Does that make it clear to the noble Lord? By implication, therefore, there were ongoing inquiries in many cases. That is an important fact that reveals the nature of the exercise; there were and are ongoing inquiries in many cases.

[Lord Maginnis of Drumglass]

My Lords—

[Baroness Randerson]

No, I am sorry—

[Lord Maginnis of Drumglass]

I am aware of the mood of the House but we need a clear answer and we still have not got one. Out of the 187 cases, are any of them likely to be prosecuted? It is not worthy of this House and it is not worthy of the Minister that we do not have clear answers. I am finished; I have concluded what I was going to say. I apologise, but it must be said.

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord is fully aware that I cannot give answers relating to the prosecution of individuals. That is certainly not a matter for a government Minister but one for the police service and prosecuting authorities. It is important that we bear that in mind in this discussion. I want to finish now and make it clear to noble Lords that the inquiry will be wide-ranging, and I have absolute confidence that in the future this House will have the opportunity to debate this issue further. I want, however, to return to the purpose of this discussion and commend the amendment to the House.

Amendment 1 agreed.

Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

2: Clause 6, page 6, line 35, leave out “exceeding” and insert “lower than five or higher than”

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[Lord McAvoy]

It is a matter of judgment as to whether one takes that point of view or not. I do not share the noble Lord’s point of view. I still insist that the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland are not ready yet. I am repeating myself, although I was trying not to. Last week, I referred to the fact that we are still on that rocky road. This amendment does not have the support of the Opposition.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Empey, for his introductory speech. I want to deal briefly with the points he made about the letters that were sent. Perhaps I may say yet again that because these were purely factual letters, they were of course non-statutory. Therefore, they were not the subject of any formal transfer provisions in the legislation that accompanied devolution in 2010. The noble Lord asked questions about further evidence and how it would be treated. I refer him to my earlier answer to the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, because it is important we remember that this is the subject of part of the inquiry.

As I have said previously, the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and my noble friend Lord Lexden, have done us a great service in raising the profile of this issue through the various amendments that have been tabled. At Report, I indicated that the Government would consider the matter further and set out their position at Third Reading. I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lords but we will not be supporting this amendment. As I have said previously, the creation of opportunities for responsible opposition in the Assembly would be a progressive step. As a Member of the Government here in Westminster I know only too well how much an Opposition can keep us on our toes. I think that noble Lords have illustrated that point very effectively during the passage of this Bill. It would be a welcome development if similar arrangements were put in place in Northern Ireland. I believe that the Assembly’s reputation would be enhanced if that were to happen.

We are, however, talking about the Assembly’s internal procedures and it is important that we do not make changes to those without, at the least, having consulted the Assembly. I know that I have mentioned this previously but the Government consider that it is important that the Assembly should be consulted. “Consulted” implies that one would take account of their expressed view.

In previous debates, it was noted that the Assembly could provide for an Opposition through its existing standing orders. It was also noted that the rights accorded to an Opposition created in this way could be revoked at the behest of the largest parties in the Assembly. It is right and proper that any Opposition in the Assembly should have the ability to carry out their functions without fear of losing their status by virtue of having challenged the Executive. It is also right that opposition parties should have sufficient status if they are to be truly effective in holding the Executive to account. To the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, who asked what incentive there was to become a member of the Opposition, I say that the original amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, envisaged the potential status that would come to opposition parties: that would be part of the incentive.

The noble Lord’s amendment attempts to offer a safeguard in the shape of the Secretary of State’s involvement. I pay tribute to the effort that the noble Lord has expended in refining his successive amendments to the Bill. However, we still do not believe that this amendment is the appropriate means of ensuring more effective opposition. We believe that it would be inappropriate in any circumstances for the Secretary of State to have such a direct role in the internal procedures of the Assembly, as envisaged in the amendment—the more so when the Assembly, as I said, has not been consulted.

The noble Lord will point out that his amendment would allow no role to the Secretary of State unless the Assembly took the first step. Even so, given that the Assembly has not been consulted, our taking this step now could be misunderstood by at least some in Belfast as hostile interference in the Assembly’s procedures. The consequences of that would be negative for the long-term prospects of facilitating opposition. As the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, said, there has been discussion of this in recent years in the Assembly, and there was no consensus. I will add that we also see technical difficulties with this amendment. I would not normally draw attention to them, but we are now at the stage where such difficulties cannot be remedied.

I welcome the comment in Committee of the noble Lord, Lord Browne, that his party was willing to support additional resources and speaking time for genuine opposition. I hope that his party will deliver on this commitment and that other parties in the Assembly will share that view. I am also encouraged by the Private Member’s Bill brought forward by Mr John McCallister in the Assembly, and I hope that it will spur more debate. I hope that the Assembly, when it debates the Bill, will take cognisance of the various points that have been raised here.

In the mean time, the Government will impress on the parties in Northern Ireland their desire to see an effective Opposition in the Assembly and will consider ways in which we might do so. I hope that noble Lords will feel reassured that this is an issue that the Government take seriously and on which we hope to see real and meaningful progress in future. I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, it is almost as if one is answering a debate on an amendment that one has not actually tabled. The amendment is based on the assumption that the Assembly is the initiator. That was to ensure that no harm would be done to the convention. The Minister also said that of course the Assembly has not been consulted. That is a fair point. However, neither has it been consulted—to my knowledge —about reducing in size to 90. It has not been consulted —nor did it seek to be—on the content of the next two amendments. It appears that we have a law for one process and a totally different law for another.

That is hardly surprising, and dare I say to the Minister—although it is not her responsibility—that the one big thing that the Assembly was not consulted about was what was going on behind its back. That is the elephant in the room, and has been since last week. One can be very picky about what one decides to use as a mechanism for saying that one does not want to do something, but I have to say that the Minister’s arguments were not convincing.

On the technical aspects of the amendment, I accept that there is an issue. One understands that those of us in your Lordships’ House have only limited resources to table amendments; we do not have the power of the Government. The Minister made it very clear in her closing remarks in Committee that she and the Government acknowledged that there was a genuine concern that an Opposition born exclusively out of the Assembly changing its standing orders would be vulnerable. I feel that that point at least has come across. On whether this is the right mechanism to deal with the issue, we have an open mind.

The Minister also indicated that the Government were going to set out ideas on how the matter could be addressed. So far, those have not been set out. I hope that the Minister will shortly be in a position, through the Secretary of State, to set out the Government’s proposals. Like so many other things regarding change, they are all stalled and going nowhere.

If we have done nothing else, we have raised the profile of the issue. It will not go away. I think that the necessity to have a guarantee that an Opposition cannot be abused by a majority in the Assembly has been accepted by the Minister. Of course, I acknowledge that there are technical issues, to which she correctly drew attention. On that basis, and not on the basis that the amendment does any harm or ill to the Assembly, I beg leave to withdraw it.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

5: Clause 10, page 9, line 7, at end insert—
“( ) Section 4 of that Act (transferred, excepted and reserved matters) is amended as follows.
“( ) In subsection (2), for “and (3)” substitute “to (3D)”.
“( ) After subsection (3) insert—
“(3A) The Secretary of State shall not lay before Parliament under subsection (2) the draft of an Order amending paragraph 16 of Schedule 3 (Civil Service Commissioners for Northern Ireland) unless the Secretary of State has, at least three months before laying the draft, laid a report before Parliament.
(3B) The report under subsection (3A) must set out the Secretary of State’s view of the effect (if any) that the Order would have on—
(a) the independence of the Civil Service Commissioners for Northern Ireland;(b) the application of the principle that persons should be selected for appointment to the Northern Ireland Civil Service on merit on the basis of fair and open competition; and(c) the impartiality of the Northern Ireland Civil Service.”.”

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, the amendment refers to the appointment of Civil Service Commissioners. At present, that is an excepted matter and this function is exercised by the Secretary of State on behalf of Her Majesty. The functions and procedures of the Civil Service Commissioners are currently reserved matters.

Northern Ireland has had its own Civil Service since the 1920s. This was referred to in our previous debate. It is quite distinct from the Home Civil Service that serves the Westminster Government and the Scottish and Welsh Administrations. The Northern Ireland Civil Service itself is and always has been a devolved matter, but a decision was made in 1998 not to devolve the Civil Service Commissioners for Northern Ireland for the time being. They, like their Whitehall counterparts, are responsible for ensuring that appointments to the Northern Ireland Civil Service are made on merit and on the basis of fair and open competition.

Clause 10 moves the appointment of the commissioners from the “excepted” category in Schedule 2 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to the “reserved” category. Appointment of the commissioners would then be in the same category as their functions and procedures. The Bill does not propose any immediate devolution of these responsibilities. The change it makes in constitutional categories opens the way to devolution at some future point following votes in the Northern Ireland Assembly and here.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, at the risk of upsetting the noble Lord, Lord Empey, I join him in supporting this amendment. It would have been a lot better if we had discussed this on Report but the flexibility shown by the Minister, referred to by other noble Lords, indicates that once again there has been a success in talking to people.

As the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said, this amendment requires the Secretary of State to lay a report in Parliament at least three months prior to bringing any order on the devolution of responsibilities in respect of the Civil Service Commissioners. The report should set out the Secretary of State’s view of the effect such an order would have on the impartiality of the Northern Ireland Civil Service, including the merit principle for appointments and the independence of the Civil Service Commissioners. The amendment marks a move towards ensuring the impartiality of the Northern Ireland Civil Service, and we welcome it.

There are key differences between the Northern Ireland Civil Service and the Westminster Civil Service. Senior civil servants in Northern Ireland have a higher profile than their counterparts in the rest of the United Kingdom. This is partly because, particularly when the Assembly has been suspended or there have been different governance arrangements, it has often been a civil servant who has undertaken the role that Ministers have here in defending or promoting policies and engaging with the public. The difference is cultural and practical. Due to these marked differences, the Northern Ireland Civil Service would benefit from a requirement for the Secretary of State to produce a report that outlines the effect such an order would have on the impartiality of the Civil Service, including the merit principle for appointments and independence of the Civil Service Commissioners. I am delighted to welcome the amendment on behalf of the Opposition.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank noble Lords for their comments. Specifically, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bew, for the very constructive comments he has made on this throughout. My response to his specific question is that so much of the Civil Service in Northern Ireland is already either devolved or reserved and this was the one aspect that was still within the purview of the UK Government. Therefore, it is the logical next step to put this in the same category as the procedures and functions of the Civil Service Commissioners.

I say to my noble friend Lord Alderdice and the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that there are now strong safeguards on the condition and position of the Civil Service Commissioners. Indeed, this could be a real improvement on the status quo, and it is important. The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, mentioned the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, in an earlier debate. The noble Lord, Lord Butler, has not pursued those issues with me directly but I hope that he is now content, particularly because of the commitment in this amendment to provide for a debate on the Secretary of State’s report. That ensures that the views of noble Lords who have a particular interest in this issue will be heard. I commend the amendment to the House.

Amendment 5 agreed.

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Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

6: Clause 11, page 9, line 13, leave out from “matters),” to end of line 16 and insert “after sub-paragraph (a) insert—
“(aa) in Part VII, sections 68 to 69A, 69C to 70, 71(2A) to (2C) and Schedule 7;”.”

[Baroness Randerson]

Noble Lords will probably be relieved to hear that my comments on this amendment will be rather briefer than they were on the previous one on the Civil Service Commissioners because there are considerable parallels between the two.

Serious concerns were expressed in our earlier debates about the possibility of devolving responsibility for the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. These concerns were in many respects analogous to those that were outlined concerning the Civil Service Commissioners. In this case, too, we believe that those concerns deserve a very serious response. We have revised our approach in a similar way, so, as I said, I will make my comments as brief as is in accordance with being clear—I hope. As with the Civil Service Commissioners, I outlined a possible approach on Report. We have taken that approach substantially further in the amendments we have now tabled.

To recap, responsibility for appointments to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission is currently an excepted matter, as are the commission’s functions. Clause 11 moves these responsibilities from the “excepted” to the “reserved” category. The Bill does not, however, propose the devolution of these responsibilities at this time. In previous debates, concerns were expressed in respect of the commission’s independence should it ultimately be devolved. Your Lordships regard this as being of great importance. We share those concerns and are clear that they must be addressed before devolution. I indicated previously that any future devolution of responsibility for the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission would be subject to public consultation. That remains the case.

These amendments require the Secretary of State to lay a report in Parliament at least three months prior to bringing any order on the devolution of responsibilities in respect of the Human Rights Commission. As I have set out in relation to previous amendments, that is intended to ensure that there is adequate time for debate and for noble Lords to influence the approach being taken in Belfast before a devolution order is laid. As before, we undertake to facilitate a debate at that point. I hope your Lordships will agree that this is a reasonable approach to ensure proper consideration and scrutiny.

These amendments would require that the Secretary of State’s report should set out the effect, in her view, that such an order would have on the commission’s independence—which is of cardinal importance to its work. I recognise the emphasis that the commission places on its compliance with international best practice, currently embodied in the Paris and Belgrade principles. My noble friend Lord Alderdice referred to this in speaking to his amendment on Report. To reflect these concerns, this amendment would also require the Secretary of State to set out in her report the effect, in her view, of devolution on the commission’s compliance with internationally accepted principles in respect of national human rights institutions.

An important issue bearing on the independence of the commission, and dealt with in the principles, is the relationship of the commission and the Northern Ireland Assembly. These amendments would therefore require the Secretary of State in her report also to address the effect of devolution on that relationship. I hope noble Lords will feel we have reflected their concerns expressed here in debate and are able to support this amendment. I beg to move.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I again welcome the amendments brought forward by my noble friend the Minister. I accept what she said about this device or resolution being similar to that in the previous question on the Civil Service Commissioners. However, the matter at issue here is very different and one of much more substantial importance. Indeed, the Minister will recall that at Second Reading this issue was one of two that I identified as being absolutely critical. In Committee, I spoke against the question that the clause should stand part of the Bill. On Report, I came back with an amendment on the question and I am very grateful to my noble friend the Secretary of State and her officials for being prepared to engage on the question.

I do not want to repeat what I said before but I point out the signal importance of this issue and its difference from the previous one. Right back in the late 1960s and early 1970s, there was pressure in Northern Ireland for a Human Rights Commission. In 1973, when the legislation was passed, a Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights was established. That was not sufficient but it was the best that could be achieved at that particular time. It produced some very worthwhile reports, some of which were acted upon in part and some more fully. Some very distinguished colleagues, not least my predecessor as leader of the Alliance Party, Sir Oliver Napier, was a chairman of the Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights. Eventually, we moved on. We had a Human Rights Commission for Northern Ireland. The point is that this is not something that came in with the Good Friday agreement. It did not arise lately. There was absolutely critical demand and pressure for it from the 1960s and onwards. It continues to be of signal importance.

In her amendment, my noble friend has very helpfully identified a similar procedure to the previous issue. The Secretary of State would, at least three months in advance, bring forward a report identifying three very important issues: the independence of the Human Rights Commission, its relationship with the Northern Ireland Assembly, and the international commitments and responsibilities of Her Majesty’s Government. That is extremely good. She has also said, again very helpfully, that in the event that your Lordships’ House wanted to debate such a report, it would be given an opportunity by the Government to do that, and that the content of that debate would be taken seriously in the construction of the draft legislation. That is all extremely helpful and very welcome.

However, I feel strongly about the significance of this issue. If the Government did not bring forward a satisfactory report or set of proposals, this is of such significance that it is the kind of thing that one would be prepared to vote down. Not many things come forward here in terms of Orders in Council where your Lordships’ House is called on to use what we might describe as the politically nuclear option. This matter of the Human Rights Commission is of such importance that a Government—not just this one; it is likely that a subsequent Government might find themselves in this position—should not be under any illusion that if this matter were to come forward in an unsatisfactory way, they would face very serious opposition. I would be part of that opposition.

My noble friend has listened seriously to the concerns of the moment. The Government are clearly intent on making this facility available to the Northern Ireland Executive, whether or not they wish to take that up. The Minister has listened seriously and there has been a reasonable response. If all the things in this amendment are fulfilled as she described I would be more optimistic that a positive outcome might be possible. On that basis, I support her amendment.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, the Opposition support this amendment and commend the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, for their discussions and decision to bring it forward. Everyone agrees about the fundamental importance of human rights to the exercise of devolved government in Northern Ireland. It is also agreed that this is ensured through the independence of the Human Rights Commission and the impartial nature of its work. The preservation of this impartiality will be foremost in discussions when we come to actually devolve these powers. The Government’s amendments mark a move in the right direction to enable that. They have our full support.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for his support for this amendment and amendments moved throughout this afternoon. To answer my noble friend Lord Alderdice, we believe we have now taken a belt-and-braces approach to this issue. We accept its considerable importance but surely it is of the same order of importance to Northern Ireland as policing and justice, both of which have been successfully devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly. The Government hear my noble friend’s concerns and take note. We will certainly bear in mind that his intention would be to vote against anything that did not come up to what he judged to be the appropriate approach.

On the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, we are well aware of the impact of one human rights institution on another in terms of their reputation. That is one reason why we may be looking towards the Scottish model, because it has been successful in providing answerability to the Scottish Parliament. Although that is not absolutely specified in the report that the Secretary of State would make to Parliament, it is in the amendment as something of which account has to be taken.

A future Government would be mindful, of course, of the risks to the UK’s reputation in human rights issues as a whole. I commend the amendment to the House.

Amendment 6 agreed.

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Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

7: Clause 11, page 9, line 16, at end insert—
“( ) In section 4 of that Act (transferred, excepted and reserved matters), after subsection (3B) (as inserted by section 10) insert—
“(3C) The Secretary of State shall not lay before Parliament under subsection (2) the draft of an Order amending paragraph 42(aa) of Schedule 3 (Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission) unless the Secretary of State has, at least three months before laying the draft, laid a report before Parliament.
(3D) The report under subsection (3C) must set out the Secretary of State’s view of the effect (if any) that the Order would have on—
(a) the independence of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission;(b) the application of internationally accepted principles relating to national human rights institutions; and(c) the relationship between the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and the Assembly.”.”

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Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

8: Clause 28, page 17, line 30, at end insert “(but see subsection (2A) below)”

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, as noble Lords will be aware, Clause 24 amends an order-making power already passed in the Protection of Freedom Act 2012 to allow us to take forward by order the changes to the new biometric framework in the reserved and excepted fields, which the Northern Ireland Department of Justice could not legislate for within its Criminal Justice Bill, which received Royal Assent in April 2013. It will allow us to bring the position in Northern Ireland with regard to the retention, use and destruction of biometric data in the interests of national security, or for the purposes of a terrorist investigation, into line with that in Great Britain.

The amendment makes a technical change to the commencement of Clause 24. As the Bill is drafted, the clause would come into force on the day the Act is passed. However, the order-making power in the Protection of Freedoms Act—paragraph 8 of Schedule 1 —is not yet in force. The proposed change to commencement is intended to avoid a situation where the amendment to the order-making power in Clause 24 comes into force before the power itself, which would have no practical effect and which I understand is technically undesirable. This is a technical change to the clause which I hope that the House will feel able to support, as it is not an issue that has raised concern previously.

Before I sit down, I take this opportunity to thank all those who have participated in debate on the Bill. Any Minister attempting to shepherd a Bill through this House feels some trepidation because of the great reservoir of expertise and experience here. As a relative newcomer to Northern Ireland, I was certainly very aware that I could not hope to match the knowledge of some noble Lords, who have first-hand experience of many of the events which led to the settlement we have today.

I also want to thank the Bill team and other Northern Ireland Office officials, who have worked so hard on the Bill and have made huge efforts to address and take account of the concerns raised by noble Lords in debate. I am grateful for the patience and the willingness that has been shown by noble Lords to attend not only debates but the many meetings we have organised outside this Chamber. I respect the persistence that has been evident in raising those issues of most concern. I believe that the Bill has been greatly improved as a result of our dialogue.

We have developed our understanding of some of the issues which set the context for this Bill: the nature of devolution; the limits of government power and influence in devolved matters; the operation of the agreements which established the current settlement in Northern Ireland; and the scope for development of those institutions. Those debates are important, not just for Northern Ireland, but for our constitution throughout the UK.

I introduced this Bill on a note of optimism as a Bill for more normal times. It is the first Bill in recent times not to have been subject to emergency procedures in Northern Ireland. I cannot conclude our debate without acknowledging the extent to which political peace has been challenged, not least by the events of the past week. It has been a difficult time for Northern Ireland, particularly for those who have suffered as a result of the atrocities of the past. Our thoughts must be with them at this time.

I believe that there is still reason for cautious optimism. Despite the real anger and hurt felt by many on both sides of the community, the devolved institutions have avoided crisis and devolved government continues. This underlines the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland as a result of the peace process. While ensuring that we deal properly with the past, it remains essential that our determination to build a shared and prosperous future in Northern Ireland is unwavering.

The Bill is, I believe, a modest way of making a contribution to fulfilling that objective, and I commend it to the House.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords—

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Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

9: Clause 28, page 17, line 36, at end insert—
“(2A) If paragraph 8(1) of Schedule 1 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 comes into force on a day after that on which this Act is passed, section 24 comes into force immediately after that paragraph comes into force.”

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Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

That the Bill do now pass.

[Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville (Con)]

My Lords, I would like to make a brief footnote to the debates that we have just had. My noble friend Lord Mawhinney made reference in debate on Amendment 1 to my noble friend Lord King of Bridgwater and myself. I did not intervene in that debate, especially on the subject of secret deals, but certainly my basic attitude to such matters was learnt at my mother’s knee. I mention this because I recall that the Reith lectures given by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill of Bengarve, treated on the same matter. It is happy that she is here so that she can reprove me if I misrepresent her. Her view on behaviour was that those people with whom one has contact react and respond to the way that you treat them. If you communicate liking, they are likely to behave in a likeable manner while if you show that you trust them, they are likely to behave in a trustworthy manner. In both these examples, the converse is true. Secret deals are therefore fundamentally counter- productive. I once worked for a great American who taught me that the strongest argument against falsehoods is that the truth is much easier to remember. I am not seeking a response.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 25th February 2014 Lords Chamber

In the Assembly, John McCallister MLA is contemplating presenting a Private Member’s Bill on the issue of opposition in the coming months. This should be seized upon as providing a prime moment for a forward-looking discussion around this issue within Northern Ireland. This amendment acknowledges the powers of the Assembly regarding an Opposition, and behind it is an understandable concern to prevent the Assembly withdrawing anything it were to grant. However, I repeat that, unfortunately, this does not seem to be the time to accept this amendment. The Assembly must reach a cross-community consensus on the creation of an Opposition before Parliament can consider legislating in this way. The impetus to the creation of an Opposition within the Assembly must come from within Northern Ireland and cannot be imposed—yes, I am using that word—from here at Westminster. Consensus cannot be created retrospectively as this amendment would seek to do. It is for the Assembly to make the first moves towards creating an Opposition: only then can Parliament legislate on the basis of a request from the Assembly.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Lexden, for tabling this amendment. As I have acknowledged previously, they have done us a service in raising the profile of this important issue and they are to be strongly commended for that. I think that we have agreement at the very least on one thing across the Chamber this afternoon: that is, an Opposition is an important part of democracy. The Government agree that the creation of an Opposition would be a welcome step on the road to rigorous scrutiny of the Northern Ireland Executive and an important part of the democratic development of Northern Ireland.

This afternoon several noble Lords—the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, for example—emphasised the development of the Assembly as a democratic institution and the importance of that development. I myself, from my own experience as a Member of the Welsh Assembly, recall that the original Welsh Assembly as set up did not have a strong Opposition embedded within it. It did not have the institutions of an Opposition, and the positions to which the noble Lord, Lord Empey, refers in his amendment, were not necessarily there for the Opposition to take up.

As the Opposition grew within the Welsh Assembly, one could see—day by day and month by month—the effectiveness of scrutiny growing within the Assembly. To my mind, therefore, there is no argument about the importance and desirability of an Opposition. The key thing we have here is a discussion as to whether that should be done, as the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, suggested, through the internal standing-order processes of the Assembly—the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, suggested the same approach—or whether it should be something that has safeguards imposed from outside. There we have the issue of the development of Standing Orders within an organisation.

The personal experience I just referred to includes being chair of the Welsh Assembly’s Standing Orders Committee, which I always regard as one of the more challenging roles that I have taken in politics. Clearly, as the organisation develops, the Standing Orders become more sophisticated and more difficult to overturn. If the approach within the Northern Ireland Assembly is taken via Standing Orders, that of course does not necessarily mean that they are likely to be overturned—although I recognise entirely the example given by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, of the challenge last year to the power of the Department of the Environment, and the point that there are unsettled moments in the development of Northern Irish democracy.

Therefore, as I set out in Committee and as has been referred to this afternoon, the Government previously consulted on the issue of an Opposition in the Assembly and concluded that there was a lack of broad support between the parties in the Assembly for changes to the current legislative framework.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

The Northern Ireland Assembly is losing credibility across Northern Ireland and is passing very little legislation. I am very worried that the turnout at the next election will be poor. The Minister says—and the spokesman for the Opposition said the same—that the initiative must come from the Northern Ireland Assembly itself, but if all five main political parties are now in the Government, what incentive is there for any of those parties to resign from the Government and become the Opposition?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord makes a very important point. However, because there may not immediately be an obvious incentive to do so, that does not necessarily mean that in other circumstances one or more of those parties might not find it appropriate to go into opposition. In the history of party politics in general, from time to time a party believes that the time has come to renew itself, and the party also might believe that the time has come for it to take a stronger role of scrutiny. It is important that we do not regard the current situation in Northern Ireland in terms of the balance of political parties as one that will necessarily exist in decades to come. There have been remarkable changes in Northern Ireland among the political parties since the establishment of devolution, so we should not think that the current situation will necessarily always continue as it is.

I return to the point I was making. Noble Lords will be aware that the Assembly can in effect facilitate an Opposition at present through its Standing Orders, as has been referred to here this afternoon. However, as I said earlier, I recognise the concerns that those Standing Orders could be overturned at the behest of the larger parties in the Assembly. In response to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, the Government understand the desirability of sufficient protection being afforded to an Opposition against such a threat if it is to be truly effective in holding the Executive to account. It is important that the Opposition are enabled to do their work without feeling that their position is under threat. However, of course it is also possible to protect an Opposition internally, through Standing Orders.

However, as the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, highlighted in Committee and again this afternoon, this is about the Assembly’s internal procedures. I disagree with the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Lexden. It would not be appropriate for the Secretary of State to have authority over the Assembly’s internal affairs, as the amendment suggests. In the view of this Government, it is not appropriate for the Secretary of State to intervene internally in the processes of the Assembly. We also believe that it would be inappropriate to impose a requirement for the Assembly to make particular provision in this field. Indeed, we ought to show great circumspection, given that there has been no opportunity for consultation on these matters with the Northern Ireland Assembly in recent months. However, we will reflect further on the issue in the light of today’s debate. I make no promises of particular action, but we commit to considering whether there is more we can do within the constraints of the Government’s view that we should not intervene directly within the Assembly. Above all, I hope that the parties in Belfast are listening and will think carefully about amending Assembly arrangements in the light of what has been said today. With that in mind, I hope that the noble Lord, when he comes to reply, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Perhaps I might add a word about another issue, since otherwise we will not have an opportunity to consider it today. In Committee, concerns were expressed about the current provision in Clause 6 to make the reduction in the size of the Assembly a reserved matter. I would like to respond in more detail to some of the concerns debated in Committee. The current provision would enable the Assembly to legislate, with the Secretary of State’s consent, to reduce the number of Members returned to it for each Westminster constituency. The noble Lords, Lord Alderdice, Lord Empey and Lord Bew, expressed reservations about the current provision in that it did not provide sufficient protection, notably for smaller parties in the Assembly. In their view, the Secretary of State’s ability to withhold consent from such an arrangement was not a sufficient safeguard.

The Government recognise those concerns. There is a significant body of opinion that favours some reduction in the Assembly’s size, but it is certainly not our intention that it should become a radically smaller institution. When it was established, it was the intention that it should be a widely inclusive body, and that remains an essential element of the Northern Ireland settlement. Accordingly, we propose to bring forward an amendment at Third Reading that would limit any reduction in the Assembly’s size to five Members per constituency. The amendment would make clear that such a reduction would require cross-community support in the Assembly.

We will, of course, return to the detail of this amendment at Third Reading, but I hope that I have given a clear indication of the Government’s intentions and reassured noble Lords. Following my comments on this amendment and in the light of my reassurance that we will consider further the issue of our position in the Assembly, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville (Con)]

My Lords, I mean no disrespect to the shadow spokesman for the Opposition in speaking immediately after her. I hesitated to speak in the debate because I had played no part whatever in the proceedings so far, but I detected some mild anxiety in the exchanges between the government Front Bench and the advisers behind me. Therefore, I reckoned that uttering for a moment might provide enough time for any matters of that sort to be resolved with total confidence.

Like many in your Lordships’ House, I was alerted to this problem by the original letter expressing concern about the difference between Northern Ireland and the rest of the kingdom at the moment in these regards. For reasons that are in no remote sense the responsibility or fault of the Minister, I was unable to attend any of the briefing meetings that she very generously provided for people interested in this Bill. It is possible, because I have not taken any part, that I have not received correspondence that may have come to other noble Lords.

Having listened to the debate this afternoon and read the debate that occurred in Committee, I have a sense of unease. I do not have a sense of confidence that all is well. We are rather late in the proceedings of this Bill to be dealing with these sorts of concerns. I hope that my noble friend the Minister will be able to give a significantly clearer position of exactly where we are and why at this particular moment.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his amendment. I know from Committee, and this afternoon, that this issue gives rise to considerable debate, in which of course there is very wide interest. I am grateful to the noble Lord for bringing the matter back on Report.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, criticised the timing of my letter. My letter was dependent on knowing on which aspects I had not been able to satisfy noble Lords following the debate in Committee. There were a number of other issues of debate that have not come back to us because clearly the debate produced a satisfactory response to what I had said. I was therefore picking up those issues which had been raised in amendments by noble Lords or which had been raised with me directly in that noble Lords had told me that they intended to table amendments on those issues. Therefore, having got a picture of what noble Lords were interested in and concerned about, I wrote in the hope that, by giving some advance notice, I would enable your Lordships to prepare your points for debate with an eye to what I was planning.

Returning to the points made this afternoon, noble Lords will be aware that this amendment is the same amendment that the noble Lord tabled in Committee. As I outlined then, while we have much sympathy with the concerns that underlie it, to which the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, has just referred, the Government cannot accept it; first, on the basis that it is technically problematic; and, secondly, because it will pre-empt a public consultation on the future devolution of the Civil Service Commissioners.

It is worth emphasising again that Clause 10 is concerned only with the appointment of the Civil Service Commissioners and not the wider Civil Service. There have been a number of references today, as there were in the previous debate in Committee, to the issue of the Civil Service as a whole. That is, however, a devolved issue, and therefore it is important that we bear in mind that we are talking only about the appointment of the Civil Service Commissioners.

Clause 10 does not change the current procedure for the appointment of Civil Service Commissioners for Northern Ireland. Appointments are currently an excepted matter, and the Bill proposes to make them a reserved matter, as is currently the case with the commissioners’ functions and procedures. But the Bill opens the possibility of responsibility for the appointment of the commissioners and their functions and procedures to be devolved at a later stage.

I recognise that noble Lords have concerns that the principle of appointments to the Northern Ireland Civil Service should be made on merit and through open and fair competition, and that this should be protected, as is the case with the Home Civil Service here. In Committee I made it clear that the Government are certainly open to the possibility of new statutory safeguards being put in place in the context of devolution. But as I indicated previously, attempting to write them in now would pre-empt a consultation on the future devolution of the commissioners, not least in Northern Ireland itself.

In any event, we do not have the time to put in place provision on the complex issues involved during the remaining stages of this Bill. Some of these matters, as I have said, are anyway a devolved responsibility on which we should not legislate without the consent of the Northern Ireland Assembly. It is unnecessary to make such provision at present because the House, along with another place, would have the final say over whether devolution should take place when an order to that effect was proposed.

On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, about the opportunities for the House to vote on a statutory instrument prior to devolution and that it would be a yes or no vote, the process for this is that the Secretary of State would bring an Order in Council to the House and the House can decide whether there are sufficient safeguards in place. If there are not, presumably the House would vote against that order.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness but I am afraid that she is not assuaging my concerns. In Committee, she gave me a precise undertaking. Today she has said that the Government were open to the idea of introducing the same kind of statutory safeguards for the Northern Ireland Civil Service as exist in the rest of the United Kingdom. In Committee she went much further than that and said that we would be moving to devolution with safeguards that would have the kind of statutory enforcement that exist for England. Is that going to happen before devolution or not?

[Baroness Randerson]

I hope to come to that in the latter part of my response. I was attempting to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Butler, on the specific issue of the process. Prior to the intervention I was saying that the House would have the final say on whether devolution should take place when an order to that effect was proposed. However, in responding to the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Butler, I should make it clear again that the Government are committed to protecting the independence of the Civil Service Commissioners and that we fully understand the concerns expressed about the future independence of the Northern Ireland Civil Service.

We recognise the significant and important role played by the Civil Service in Northern Ireland and, in the light of the concerns expressed, the Government propose to bring forward an amendment at Third Reading which would require the Secretary of State to lay a report before both Houses on the independence of the Northern Ireland Civil Service prior to bringing a devolution order. In her report the Secretary of State will be required to set out her view of the effect of devolution on the principle that persons should be selected for appointment to the Northern Ireland Civil Service on merit and on the basis of fair and open competition. That approach flags up the importance your Lordships attach to the question. We would wish the House to be reminded of that at a later date when and if a devolution order is brought forward.

The noble Lord, Lord Lester, asked whether discrimination is possible at this point in time in the Civil Service. There are extensive safeguards in Northern Ireland law and in the 1998 Act against discrimination in employment and, more generally, against discrimination by public authorities. I am sure that on this issue it would be more significant if I responded to the noble Lord in detail, possibly by letter, which I could place in the Library.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

I am extremely grateful to my noble friend for her reassurance. I want to make it clear that my understanding, as a matter of law, is that if the commission were not to recruit on merit, on the basis of fair and open competition, that would already be unlawful both by statute and common law. The House may need that reassurance in considering whether the proposal now being made, for a report in the future, would be sufficient safeguard against abuse. If the Minister finds it more convenient to confirm that in writing, I would be grateful for that.

[Baroness Randerson]

As an issue of principle, my understanding is that that is the situation. However, in order that noble Lords might understand it in more detail, I will ensure that a letter is sent to my noble friend and a copy placed in the Library in order that we can make the current situation clear. As I listened to this debate and read the Hansard report of our previous one, it became clear that this is a complex issue in which we are, in practice, moving between the appointment of the Civil Service Commissioners on a fair, equal and open basis and the standards by which we would expect the Civil Service in Northern Ireland to operate. Some of these issues are devolved but it is important to be clear about which safeguards are already in place, at which level, and which points are devolved. I give way to the noble Baroness.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. She is trying to be very clear and I wish I could be equally clear at this point. The noble Baroness used two phrases that give me concern. At some points she talked about the independence of appointments to the Northern Ireland Civil Service Commission but in her letter, and at other times, she referred to the independence and impartiality of appointments to the Northern Ireland Civil Service for which the commission is, at some levels, responsible. That is where there is some confusion.

We are just a few days away from Third Reading and I would be very concerned if an amendment were tabled quite late in the day and the only discussion we had was on the Floor of your Lordships’ House. Would it be possible for the Minister, before tabling the government amendment at Third Reading, to discuss it with noble Lords who have raised concerns to ensure that they are content with its wording and feel that it does what they are asking for it to do? The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, is quite right. We are very late in the day to be at this stage with the matter not resolved. It would be very helpful if the Minister could agree to circulate the amendment and discuss it with noble Lords prior Third Reading.

[Baroness Randerson]

One our problems is that the Bill refers to the appointment of Civil Service Commissioners but the amendment goes beyond that because, as has been pointed out, this is a miscellaneous provisions Bill and things are put into it which add to its scope. In attempting to respond to the debate, we have all been discussing the qualities of the Civil Service in Northern Ireland—its free and open appointment and independence. We have therefore been ranging well beyond the point in the Bill. I am absolutely happy to organise a meeting with noble Lords who are concerned about this issue. It is essential to have a full discussion of any proposed amendment and ensure, as far as possible, that noble Lords are satisfied with the direction of the amendment.

As the noble Baroness has pointed out, there is an issue with timing. We have Third Reading next week so it is essential that we move on under a realistic timetable. The Government are absolutely committed to having public consultation before making fundamental changes to the appointment of the Civil Service Commissioners. We are not considering devolution of anything without wide public consultation and the agreement of the Assembly. We have a relatively limited period of time in which to produce an amendment that works within those parameters.

[Lord Alderdice]

I hesitate to intervene, but will my noble friend clarify something else? She talked about the importance of public consultation. I do not ask her to clarify this now, but perhaps she could do so in writing before the Bill’s next stage. The noble Baroness on the Opposition Front Bench said that culturally and socially there is a difference in the roles of the heads of the Civil Service departments in Northern Ireland. It is my recollection that there is a legal and constitutional difference from this part of the world as well. I recollect that the heads of Northern Ireland government departments are the civil servants, not the Ministers, which is a different position from that in the rest of the United Kingdom. I am not certain that all noble Lords are aware of the fact that it is a quite different position. Therefore, sensitivities that some of us have on these matters are all the more acute. I see my noble friend Lord Trimble nodding his head, and that ought to be confirmation sufficient for me, but I ask the Minister to confirm between now and the next stage precisely what is the position and, in particular, the status of heads of department as civil servants.

[Baroness Randerson]

My noble friend is correct in his general point, which is that the Civil Service in Northern Ireland has a different status from that in the rest of the country. The situation changed in 2010, when additional safeguards were introduced for the rest of the country.

I suggest that the best way in which I can deal with the detailed approach for which my noble friend is asking is to add it to the letter that I originally said that I would write to the noble Lord, Lord Lester, because it is very much in the same field and at the same level of detail. Then we can have the precise legal and historical background to the different situation that exists for the Civil Service in Northern Ireland. My noble friend makes an important point that we are looking historically at a different situation.

I draw your Lordships’ attention to my proposal of an amendment that the Secretary of State should bring forward a report. I think that our approach flags up the importance that your Lordships clearly attach to this very important question. Requiring a report will feed back into the consultation process that we have committed to undertake on the question of whether the responsibility should be devolved and in which circumstances. I hope that your Lordships will agree that such an amendment goes much further than the current clause. We will of course return to the detail of these amendments. It is obvious that we are going to have ongoing discussion on this and we will return to it at Third Reading. I hope that this will provide the noble Lord with the necessary assurances and that he will consider withdrawing his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I understand the concerns that have led the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, to table this amendment. The discussion of human rights has played an important part in the establishment of devolved structures within Northern Ireland. Today the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission continues to play a key role in maintaining these institutions. Throughout the Assembly’s legislative process, the Human Rights Commission can intervene at any point to prevent the governing parties from creating legislation that does not conform to proper international standards of human rights. Given the importance of the commission to the legislative process, there is an understandable need to preserve its independence and impartiality.

The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, echoed by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, mentioned that there seems to be an air of lack of faith in the Assembly in Northern Ireland. There is certainly anecdotal evidence in conversations to justify that complaint, or at least to make a valid one. I urge all representatives from Northern Ireland and noble Lords and noble Baronesses here to use what influence they can to try to move things along. If the public start to lose faith in the Assembly, we are all in trouble, so we should all be trying to inspire faith in it. The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, was absolutely right to refer to that.

In Northern Ireland, the devolution of the relevant power to the Assembly would appear to offer a firm guarantee of the commission’s continued independence. While recognising the valid intent of the amendment, I think it would be a mistake to accept it at this time. As acknowledged by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, a very valuable service is being performed by having this discussion.

The actual powers concerning the Human Rights Commission have not yet been devolved. Prior to the actual devolution, the Government have committed to carrying out extensive consultation and encouraging debate within Northern Ireland. It will not be until after this that the actual form that the devolution of these powers will take will be decided. Only then will it potentially be necessary to consider an amendment such as this.

Everyone agrees about the fundamental importance of human rights to the exercise of devolved government in Northern Ireland. It is also agreed that this is ensured through the independence of the Human Rights Commission and the impartial nature of its work. The preservation of this impartiality will be foremost in discussion when we come to actually devolve these powers. However, since the precise model for the devolution of these powers has not yet been agreed—and it will only be agreed after consultation within Northern Ireland, which will hopefully include a large say for the public—I feel that at this time the amendment has been quite rightly described as a probing amendment and the Official Opposition cannot support it.

The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, made a strong case that the devolution of these responsibilities should be to the Assembly, as is the case in Scotland. The point was made in Committee that the impartiality and independence of the commission is crucial and must be both retained and maintained. Therefore, we welcome the Government’s commitment to ensure that proper consultation and debate on this takes place in Northern Ireland before a vote is taken to devolve these responsibilities. I conclude by thanking once again the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, for the service that he has provided the House.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I hear strong echoes in this debate of the concerns raised in the previous debate. The Government have a similar potential solution to assuage the concerns of noble Lords. I am grateful to my noble friend for tabling this amendment and I understand his concerns in relation to the independence of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission should it be devolved in future. I make that point to my noble friend Lord Lester: it is by no means a foregone conclusion that the Human Rights Commission will be devolved in the future. It will be subject, of course, to consultation and discussion.

Indeed, let me say at once that we share the concerns that several noble Lords have expressed today and we are clear that they must be addressed before devolution. For that reason we will propose amendments at Third Reading that will ensure that they are addressed, albeit not quite in the way suggested in my noble friend’s amendment. It is worth reminding the House that Clause 11 of the Bill moves certain functions relating to the commission from the excepted to the reserved category.

The Government made a commitment in their response to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee’s pre-legislative scrutiny report on the draft version of this Bill to consult formally on any future devolution of responsibilities relating to the commission and the other arm’s-length bodies discussed, prior to any devolution taking place. I want to reiterate that commitment today. The concerns expressed in the debates here will obviously inform that consultation. We will also ensure that the commission retains its responsibility for the scrutiny of non-devolved matters relating to Northern Ireland—such as national security and terrorism—in the event of any future devolution of responsibilities for the institution.

My noble friend raised the issue of the Belgrade and Paris principles. The Government are fully aware of the huge significance of those principles and we are absolutely committed to the idea that they are fundamental to the future independence of the Human Rights Commission. Nothing we do in future will challenge that. We know the importance that the commission attaches to the high regard in which it is held internationally.

At this stage we are not considering in detail the model for how eventual devolution will look. The Bill would simply move certain policy areas from the excepted to the reserved field so that devolution could take place by order later. That would require a vote in the Assembly to accept the new powers. Ultimately it would be for the devolved institutions to determine the structures and lines of accountability they wanted in operation. However, it seems obvious that if there are already models in operation which seem to work well they could provide a suitable starting point when these issues are considered in detail. In Scotland, for example, the devolution is to the Scottish Parliament, which has proved to be a very successful model.

As I said, the model of devolution needs to be determined in the light of the public consultation. There are many detailed questions to be addressed about the devolved arrangements, if it is eventually decided to devolve. We obviously have to take the views of the Human Rights Commission itself into account, those of others in the community, those of the receiving institutions, the Assembly and the Executive. Your Lordships will have an opportunity to debate those detailed arrangements at a later stage. Any proposal to devolve requires a vote here, as well as in another place and in the Assembly. However, we believe that it would be right to put on record now the view of the House that those questions require close scrutiny.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, expressed the view several times during the debate today and previously that the Government are deliberately pushing things off the desk. I say to him and to others who go along with his viewpoint that there is another way of looking at this. The Government see this as part of building a broader base for devolution in Northern Ireland. As the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, said, it is part of moving things on in Northern Ireland and creating a more normal political model. It is hoped that by broadening the base of devolution in Northern Ireland it will be made firmer and stronger as a result. However, to noble Lords who expressed concerns about this, I acknowledge that the Government are very sensitive to the issues of timing and very much aware that the progress of devolution in Northern Ireland is not always as trouble-free and speedy as we would wish to see.

In recognition of the concerns expressed about that issue, the Government intend to put forward an amendment at Third Reading which makes clear that the future independence of the commission is something that needs to be guaranteed at the point of eventual devolution. Accordingly, the amendment will propose a requirement on the Secretary of State to lay a report in both Houses prior to bringing forward a devolution order. The Secretary of State would be required to set out in her report the effect of that devolution order on the commission’s independence.

We will of course return to this at Third Reading, but I hope that my noble friend is reassured that the Government take the matter seriously, and that he will be willing, as he has indicated, to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

Several noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Bew, gave illustrations of why the introduction of the law in Northern Ireland would be good. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, confirmed that as well. If we have an influence—and I believe we do—it is that your Lordships’ House is a House of Lords that tries to influence opinion within the United Kingdom. The Assembly that and Executive who ignored that would be a very brave one, because discussion here does reflect public opinion in Northern Ireland. That also builds on the reference that the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, made to growing dissatisfaction and disillusionment with the Assembly. The message is clear: listen to the people and act in their interests.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I know that the concerns expressed so eloquently by my noble friends Lord Lester and Lord Lexden are shared widely across the House. That has been obvious from the debate today. There can be no doubt, either in Westminster or in Stormont, about the strength of concern felt by many noble Lords about the failure so far to reform the law on defamation.

Many organisations and individuals have also highlighted concerns about the possible effects of there being differences in the law between Northern Ireland and England and Wales. For example, the noble Lord, Lord Bew, referred to the problems for the judiciary in trying to deal with an out-of-date law and the noble Lord, Lord Black, and other noble Lords referred to the impact on the media. As we have heard, there has been an active campaign in Northern Ireland involving civil society organisations, academics, the media and some political parties. It is not quite true, as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, implied, that nothing has happened since the Defamation Act was passed here. Things have moved on in Northern Ireland. There have been responses; they just have not been very fast or gone very far. It is not true to say that nothing has happened, because the campaign has certainly had an impact. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, outlined that there is action now in the Assembly, both by Mike Nesbitt and with reference to the Law Commission. Some scepticism has been expressed about whether this will lead to a result or whether it is just a delaying tactic by the Executive. I will not speculate on that, but I put it to noble Lords that the Law Commission is a well-respected, expert institution and if there were any intention to use the commission to avoid the issue, it seems to me that that would be likely to backfire. We have also heard about the consultation and the Private Member’s Bill brought forward by the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, Mike Nesbitt. Undoubtedly his consultation produced some valuable responses and information. These are real changes and developments that have happened in Northern Ireland since the Defamation Act was passed here.

As I have said on previous occasions, the Government believe that the Defamation Act makes some very important improvements to the law that was previously in place. It introduces a tougher serious harm test to discourage trivial claims and a single publication rule so that a publisher cannot be repeatedly sued about the same material. It addresses libel tourism and prevents claims being brought in the English courts where the parties have little connection to this country. It provides simpler and clearer defences to those accused of defamation—for example, the creation of new statutory defences of honest opinion and truth and a new statutory defence for publications on matters of public interest. The Act also takes specific action to help encourage robust scientific and academic debate. It is important that those improvements and advantages are emphasised time and again as that is the way in which the Executive in Northern Ireland will be encouraged to develop their own legislation on this and to adopt the Defamation Act for themselves.

The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, asked some specific questions. It seems a very long time ago now but it is important that I respond to them. In response to his first question on whether the Government will secure a public explanation from the Executive of their inaction, I repeat that this is a devolved issue and it is important that we respect that devolution. However, that does not mean that the UK Government have not asked the question and would not appreciate an explanation.

[Lord Lexden]

Assuming that the question has been asked, should the House draw the inference and the conclusion that no answer has been given to the Government—no answer to the people of Northern Ireland, no answer to those in this House who have raised the question, and no answer to the Government either?

[Baroness Randerson]

It has been said several times this afternoon—more times than I can count—that the Northern Ireland Executive have not given any explanation. Of course, the most important group to which the explanation is owed is the people of Northern Ireland.

The second question asked by the noble Lord was whether we would establish what the Executive intend to do. I repeat that it is for the Assembly and not the Government to hold the Executive to account, and it is for the Assembly to seek an explanation. That goes along with my comment that the people of Northern Ireland are those to whom the Executive should be explaining themselves in the first instance.

In response to the third question put by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, we have of course set out to the Executive what we see as the benefits of the Act and we will continue to discuss the issue. When my noble friend Lord McNally was Minister for Justice, he wrote to the Executive commending the Act, and I am absolutely sure that the Executive will in due course become aware of our debate this afternoon.

Therefore, the Government have been active in encouraging the Executive to consider the need for change. Prior to the introduction of the Defamation Bill before Parliament, there was contact at official level to establish whether the Executive wished to seek the approval of the Assembly to a legislative consent Motion. Following completion of the Bill’s passage, as I said, my noble friend Lord McNally wrote commending it to the Executive.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

My noble friend has emphasised the importance of the Law Commission in Northern Ireland. Can she correct my misunderstanding, if that is what it is? My understanding is that the Northern Ireland Law Commission consists of a part-time commissioner and a chief executive, and that is it. Am I wrong about that?

[Baroness Randerson]

I am not aware of the exact size of the Law Commission. However, I am aware that the Law Commission’s reputation is not affected by any issue regarding its size, in that it is clearly a body with a good reputation. If the commission is as small as my noble friend indicates, that might explain why it will take it some time to consider this issue. However, I am not able to give a precise answer to his question.

I wish to remind noble Lords that the civil law of defamation is of course a devolved matter, and under the Sewel convention decisions on whether legislation in transferred areas should apply to Northern Ireland usually fall to the devolved Administration. A number of noble Lords have set out why they believe the Government should consider breaching the Sewel convention. I urge them to consider the wider ramifications of doing so for our relations with all the devolved legislatures in the United Kingdom. I welcome the words of the noble and learned Lords, Lord Carswell and Lord Hope, in this regard. It is important that we respect devolution. It is not just in respect of Scotland that we should be wary of breaching the Sewel convention; I believe that it would be destabilising in Northern Ireland if we were to pick and choose which bits of devolution we decided to observe. My noble friend Lord Lester has eloquently explained the weaknesses of our non-federal system of devolution, but I urge noble Lords who are of the mind that we should breach the Sewel convention to look at this from the viewpoint of the nations of the UK. We should be considering what it looks like from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland if we pick and choose which aspects of devolution we observe.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kilclooney]

Very briefly, I agree with everything that the noble Baroness has said about caution in dealing with the devolved Assembly. She has mentioned the Deputy First Minister, but what has been ignored in this debate is that he is in fact a Sinn Fein Deputy First Minister. Sinn Fein is the second largest party in the Assembly and has absolutely no time or respect for the House of Lords. To think that it is paying any attention to what is being said in this House would be misleading.

[Baroness Randerson]

However, as was pointed out earlier this afternoon, Sinn Fein has a considerable interest in promoting free speech in Northern Ireland. I believe that my noble friend Lord Lester referred to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, in that regard, as the two of them had worked together in relation to the broadcasting of Sinn Fein. It has an interest in the issue, but that probably goes beyond our debate.

I welcome the continued efforts made by the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Lexden, on this issue. I am pleased that we have been able to continue our debate on this matter but regret to say that the Government are unable to support the amendment. I therefore urge the noble Lord to withdraw it.

[Lord Lexden]

My Lords, this has been a tremendous debate and I am deeply grateful to all those who have taken part in it with such vigour and authority. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, that it is purely a matter of coincidence that I so readily sit under the arms of the House of Orange. I must say at once that the views of certain members, particularly of the monarch of the House of Orange in the 17th century, played no part whatever in the views that I have formed.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Carswell, in his particularly powerful speech spoke for us all when he urged the Executive to adopt the Defamation Act, and to do it quickly. Our debate was also enriched by his cautionary words, and those of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, on the Sewel convention. Clearly that needs to be borne carefully in mind. As my great friend, the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said, the Government must be mindful of their wider obligations. That is the note on which we need to end.

My final question is this: if the Northern Ireland Executive fail to pursue this matter properly, what further action will the Government take? That is the note on which we should end. I have constituted myself into a kind of watching brief on this matter and I shall seek opportunities, by one means or another, to raise this fundamentally important issue from time to time in the House. I hope that we shall be able to note progress: it is extremely important that we keep a watching brief on it. On that note, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, this debate has been interesting, as was the one in Committee, although that was without the wisdom of the noble Lord, Lord Trimble; I say his name carefully. We have benefited enormously from the experience of noble Lords here this evening: this is the value of debates in your Lordships’ House on this issue.

Clearly, we all want to ensure that governance in Northern Ireland is based on a strong cross-community partnership. I readily accept that there is no system for electing the First and Deputy First Ministers that we all would consider perfect. Indeed, the current system may not be perfect. Let us not forget where Northern Ireland had been during the four and a half years leading up to 2006. It was a major step forward to have the institutions up and running again after being suspended for that time. That was the purpose of the St Andrews agreement, the ongoing discussions which came from it and the legislation subsequently passed by your Lordships’ House and the other place. For three and a half of those four and a half years I was a Minister in Northern Ireland, and it was a difficult, tense time, as noble Lords here tonight will know better than I. When I flew out to Belfast on my first day, I was told I should expect to be a Minister for about six months. When I left three and a half years later, the Assembly was still not restored. It was a very serious and difficult time.

Since the St Andrews agreement changed the arrangements, we have had the longest period of stable government in Northern Ireland in a generation. That is not to be underestimated or dismissed lightly. Many positives proceeded from that agreement. I understand why this amendment has been brought forward and the reasons for it, but it takes apart one part of the agreement that was agreed in your Lordships’ House and the other place through legislation. We have heard very eloquently from the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, why the popular 1998 agreement for electing First Ministers and Deputy First Ministers required the direct involvement of the Assembly. He and others welcomed that very clear demonstration of cross-community support. If we were to return to the pre-St Andrews system at this stage, it would have to be done by cross- community consensus and agreement, and I really do not think that we have achieved that at present. I understand the reason for tabling the amendment, but at the moment we do not have the agreement and cross-community support necessary to achieve it. We have to understand the reasons why that came about.

In this debate and others that we have had today, wider issues have been raised by several noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Bew and Lord Trimble, about the disengagement of local people in Northern Ireland. We have talked about it in terms of the Assembly, but there is also the wider political context. That is not peculiar to Northern Ireland, but I understand the concerns about it relating to Northern Ireland. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Bew, referred to it as a destabilising trend. All sides of your Lordships’ House want confidence in the system and the Assembly. We want the stability of the Assembly to be entrenched and enhanced. That will not be done just by the institutions or the apparatus of democracy; it is far deeper than that. Perhaps there may be an opportunity for further discussion in your Lordships’ House—I do not think that tonight is the time—to address those issues to bring the entrenched stability that I think we all want.

We do not support the amendment at this time, while understanding the reasons why it has been proposed.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I want to preface my response by referring specifically to comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis. Noble Lords have been in the Chamber this afternoon and may not be aware that I have issued a Written Statement that deals with that issue. I do not feel that it is appropriate to try to tackle it in this Chamber at this time, because it is not part of this debate.

I turn to the amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, will be aware that the Government opposed amendments on this issue both in Committee in the other place and in Committee in this House. Despite the eloquence of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, we retained our opposition here. Again, we will maintain that position to this amendment on this occasion.

I recognise the noble Lord’s views on the matter, and he clearly has a close personal interest in the issue. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, highlighted in Committee and again just now, the St Andrews agreement, which led to this mechanism, ultimately led to the re-establishment of devolved government in Northern Ireland. It would be, to say the least, an unhelpful step if we were to start to unpick certain aspects of it.

I acknowledge the noble Lord’s views on whether the revised method for electing the First and Deputy First Ministers at Stormont was discussed at St Andrews. It is certainly the case that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, made that point in Committee. However, the revised method was enacted through the legislation which followed the St Andrews agreement in 2006. That legislation was endorsed and passed through this House. Whatever the merits of the amendment in the abstract, it would command limited support in Northern Ireland. Very probably, it would get virtually no cross-community support. It would provoke serious opposition and potential instability.

The current Northern Ireland settlement is imperfect, but it is what we have. I welcome the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and her party on this issue. Her words echo my thoughts.

The noble Lord, Lord Bew, made some very important points. In response, I would say that the Government are acutely aware of the tensions and difficulties in Northern Ireland and within the Executive. That is one reason why we do not want to destabilise the settlement either by changing or attempting to change the mechanism for selecting the First Minister and Deputy First Minister or by involving ourselves in the devolution settlement on issues that are devolved. It is important that we do not disturb the situation. That does not mean that we are sleepwalking, or allowing Northern Ireland to sleepwalk, into any unravelling of the current situation. I agree strongly with the views of the noble Baroness. With every month that passes, the institutions of Northern Ireland become more firmly established in the country and as part of the politics, and it becomes less likely that they will hit the sort of problems that occurred soon after devolution was established.

As I highlighted in Committee, reopening old debates of this nature is liable to create a distraction that would shift the focus of Northern Ireland politics away from the pressing challenges that Northern Ireland faces—issues such as community division and economic renewal. I hope the noble Lord would agree that those issues should take precedence at this time and, in doing so, will be willing to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Trimble]

I thank noble Lords who have taken part in this little debate, which has gone on longer than I had hoped. As the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, said, these are issues that I have dealt with before. I remember certainly the first time I dealt with them in 2006. I divided the House, and I was very happy to have the support of the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, in doing so. He has changed his position somewhat since then. I merely mention this from the point of view of spreading news on the matter.

I note the statement of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, who said that if one was to make a change, the change would require cross-community support. She is right. That is how the agreement was made. The agreement was made based on a broad support —a “sufficient consensus” as we called it—and the majority of unionists and the majority of nationalists supported it in the talks. If you are going to make a change to it—although no express provision has been made as to how changes should take place—then the noble Baroness is quite right to say that the changes would be legitimate if they were made by the same procedure by which the agreement was made in the first place.

That is not what happened in 2006. I was finding it somewhat difficult to follow what the Minister was saying at some points, but I think it is absolutely clear that the change to the identification of First and Deputy First Ministers was not actually in what is called the St Andrews agreement. It came into the legislation to implement it, but it only popped up at the last minute without any coherent explanation of where it came from, and with no indication that there was the sort of cross-community support that ought to have been sought for it. People say going back would be a bad thing to do. The Minister says that going back would have limited support in Northern Ireland. The original agreement had a referendum, and it was supported by an overwhelming majority; that referendum is ignored. It has been said many times in this debate that we should not upset the devolution settlement. The devolution settlement was upset, peremptorily. That is undeniable. Consequently this is something to which we will return, until we get things sorted out on this. We have at present a bad system which may have bad consequences; I hear what the Minister says about not sleepwalking and I hope that that is the case. We shall see. Let us make sure that we do what we can to ensure that there is no sleepwalking. I think I can guarantee the Minister and the Northern Ireland Office that we will return to this aspect of this issue, to try and ensure that people are on top of this. We have a rotten system which may turn round to bite us. This is not the time to press the matter further. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

District Electoral Areas (Northern Ireland) Order 2014

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Monday 3rd February 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

That the draft order laid before the House on 18 December 2013 be approved.

Relevant documents: 17th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 28 January.

Motion agreed.