Wales: Commission on Devolution in Wales

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, with the permission of the House I will repeat a Statement made by the Secretary of State for Wales in the other place:

“This Government have already committed over £2.25 billion to new infrastructure that will benefit Wales, directly or indirectly. We are spending almost £2 billion to modernise the rail network, including electrifying the Great Western mainline to Swansea and the railways serving the south Wales valleys. We are investing £250 million to build a new prison in north Wales that will create up to 1,000 new jobs and require a supply chain that will bring an estimated £28 million a year more into the local economy. We have also committed £57 million to bring superfast broadband to Wales, a key element of a modern infrastructure network. Alongside this, Hitachi’s investment in new nuclear at Wylfa Newydd is a great opportunity to create jobs and drive economic growth across north Wales.

Earlier this month, I confirmed in a Written Statement to this House that we will enable the Welsh Government to use their existing borrowing powers to start work as soon as possible on the sorely needed upgrade to the M4 around Newport, tackling the congestion that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister described as,

‘a foot on the windpipe of the Welsh economy’.

Today, in making our full response to the Silk commission’s recommendations, the Government are unveiling a new and extensive package of financial powers that will be devolved to the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Government.

I would like to commend my right honourable friends the Chancellor and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and Jane Hutt, the Welsh Minister for Finance, for the positive and collaborative approach taken in agreeing this package of powers. It demonstrates the strength of the United Kingdom and the flexibility and adaptability of devolution within our union.

The Silk commission made 33 recommendations, 31 of which were for the Government to consider. Today we are accepting, in full or in part, all but one. We are devolving many new financial powers to the National Assembly and the Welsh Government, potentially giving the Welsh Government control over more than £3 billion of tax revenue, with commensurate levels of borrowing.

We are providing the Welsh Government with additional tools to invest in the areas they are responsible for, to enable them to upgrade Wales’s infrastructure and help quicken the pace of economic growth. It will facilitate the improvement of Wales’s deteriorating road network—not only the M4, which I mentioned earlier, but also the other key Welsh trans-European route, the North Wales Expressway.

The devolution of tax and borrowing powers will also make the Assembly and the Welsh Government more accountable to the people of Wales who elect them. Since devolution the Assembly and the Welsh Government have been accountable only for how they spend taxpayers’ money. They will now become more accountable for how they raise it.

The Government’s response to the Silk commission’s first report builds on the announcement made by the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister earlier this month and sets out in detail the devolved financial powers we are giving to the National Assembly for Wales.

We will give Welsh Ministers borrowing powers so that they can invest in the capital infrastructure I described earlier. We will devolve landfill tax and stamp duty land tax in Wales, ensuring that the Welsh Government have an independent funding stream to pay back the money they borrow. We will provide for a referendum to take place so that people in Wales can decide whether some of their income tax should be devolved to the Welsh Government. Subject to the approval of the people of Wales in a referendum, we will deduct 10p from each of the main UK income tax rates in Wales, with the Welsh Government able to set an unrestricted Welsh rate of income tax for all Welsh taxpayers. This is consistent with the system being introduced in Scotland, and will increase the accountability of the Welsh Government while avoiding significant risks to UK revenues that would result from different Welsh rates for each band.

We will also fully devolve non-domestic business rates raised in Wales, so that the Welsh Government budget benefits more directly from growth in Wales. We will enable the National Assembly for Wales to create new taxes with the UK Government’s consent and devolve the tools to manage these new powers. A cash reserve will be created that the Welsh Government can add to when revenues are high and utilise when revenues are below forecast, and we will provide the Welsh Government with limited current borrowing powers to deal with shortfalls if their cash reserve is insufficient.

I was pleased that Carwyn Jones, the First Minister of Wales, welcomed the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister’s announcement earlier this month. This package of powers gives the Welsh Government additional tools to invest in Wales to rejuvenate the Welsh economy, which has languished behind the rest of the United Kingdom for far too long. It will make the Assembly and the Welsh Government more accountable to the people they serve, and place important taxation levers in the hands of the Welsh Government which, if used wisely, can help make Wales a more prosperous place. This is a once-in-a-generation opportunity for Wales. I hope that the Welsh Government will rise to the challenge, and look beyond the M4 to invest wisely, and strategically, across the whole of Wales. I will place a copy of the Government’s response in the Library of both Houses and I commend this Statement to the House”.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her Statement today and for outlining the UK Government’s response to the recommendations of Silk part 1. On this side of the House we welcome the Statement and the UK Government’s acceptance of the majority of the Silk commission’s recommendations. I thank Paul Silk and his fellow commissioners for their excellent work, which is continuing into next year as they prepare for the next phase of their report.

These additional powers give the Welsh Government the tools they need to stimulate the Welsh economy and to support the creation of jobs. Amid all the talk of constitutional settlement, we must remember that it is how these powers are used that matters. On our side, no one is seeking more powers simply for the sake of it—they are important because of how they can be used to support the living standards of the people of Wales. The people of Wales have been hard hit by this Government’s policies, with real incomes down by £1,700 a year, energy bills rocketing, public services under pressure and welfare cuts hurting the most vulnerable. It is therefore critically important that Wales has borrowing powers which are afforded to other devolved Administrations in Scotland and Northern Ireland, as well as to local authorities, to enable it to invest in infrastructure. This is particularly important given the huge cuts to the Welsh Government’s budget. The capital budget will shrink by a third over this Parliament as part of a £1.7 billion cut to the overall budget.

The M4 relief road is the most immediate concern—not to politicians but particularly to businesses, which depend on fast, reliable roads to get their goods to market. But we also need to invest in other transport projects across Wales and in our schools and hospitals. Will the Minister first clarify exactly when she expects that a package will be in place to support the development of the M4 relief road? Will she also tell us the process by which the level of borrowing will be agreed?

The Government have previously indicated that devolution of minor taxes such as stamp duty and landfill tax is a sufficient independent income stream against which the Welsh Government can borrow. But today’s response suggests that it will also be contingent on income tax revenues. Will she confirm whether that is the case and how much borrowing will be released once minor taxes are devolved prior to any ability to vary income tax?

We welcome the devolution of a number of smaller taxes. These will give the Welsh Government a number of additional levers to support the Welsh economy and the revenue stream needed to trigger borrowing powers. Both the original consultation carried out by the Silk commission and the additional consultation over the summer clearly showed widespread support for the devolution of stamp duty. Prior to the introduction of these new tax powers, the method for calculating the offsets to the block grant will need to be agreed. Will the Minister give us some detail on the process for agreeing these offsets?

Our position has always been that we support the proposal on income tax laid out by Silk, which my honourable friend in the other place the shadow Secretary of State for Wales has called the triple lock. It allows for the ability to vary income tax rates subject to: first, the referendum; secondly, a period of assignment to ensure that Wales is not worse off; and thirdly, a fair funding settlement. That remains our position. We are pleased to see that the idea of a sunset clause, which was previously suggested on the timetable for a referendum, has been quietly dropped.

Of major significance today is that the Government have rejected the recommendation by Silk that the Welsh Government should be able to vary the bands independently. Will the Minister give us more detail on why the Government rejected this recommendation? Are the Government concerned about the potential introduction of a progressive tax? That would be particularly ironic given that the only tax rate that the UK Government have sought to lower is the additional rate of income tax for those earning more than £150,000 a year. As we all know, there are not many of those in Wales.

On fair funding, the Government clearly believe that last year’s joint statement with the Welsh Government meets the recommendation laid down by Silk. The statement said that both Governments would review relative levels of funding for Wales and England in advance of each spending review and, if convergence is forecast to resume, to discuss options to address the issue in a fair and affordable manner. Will the Minister tell us what these possible options are and what would trigger action as a result of these discussions? Will she also give us more information about the nature and timing of these discussions?

The Welsh Secretary of State, David Jones, this morning urged the Welsh Government to hold a referendum soon. He said that his party would campaign for a yes vote in order to cut taxes by 1p or more. Will the Minister clarify if this is the position of the Liberal Democrats as well? If so, will she clarify what services in Wales would be cut in order to make up the shortfall in tax receipts?

I repeat my thanks to the Minister for the Statement. I welcome the UK Government’s acceptance of the majority of Silk’s recommendations. These measures are a real step forward for Wales and for the Welsh Assembly and I would be grateful if the Minister could address my queries on the detail of when and how the recommendations will be implemented.

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Baroness has given me a large number of questions to answer and I will do my best to cover all the major points. I take issue with her opening comment that the Government have accepted the majority of the Silk recommendations. Although technically that is the case, I feel that it is a pretty large majority to accept 30 out of 31 recommendations. “The overwhelming majority” is the way I would put it.

The noble Baroness makes the point that the Welsh economy is lagging behind the rest of the UK. It has lagged behind the rest of the UK for many decades. It is a matter of great sadness to me as someone who lives in Wales that it has fallen further and further behind the rest of the UK. This is not a recent thing since the coalition Government came to power: it is something that has existed for far too long, and the coalition Government, in making this series of announcements today, are determined to give the Welsh Government and the National Assembly for Wales the tools with which to do the job—the tools with which to repair the Welsh economy and ensure that it becomes fully efficient and effective again.

On the timing for the M4 financial package, our intention, as with everything else in this series of announcements, is to ensure that it can be put into practice as soon as possible. Early borrowing powers will be put into practice very rapidly. The Welsh Government are currently undertaking a consultation on a possible route for the M4 relief road and it is clearly going to be some time before any kind of actual building on the ground will take place. But I promise the noble Baroness that the tools will be in the hands of the Welsh Government in plenty of time to undertake that. It is the Government’s intention to ensure that that legislation is passed in this Parliament if at all possible. We intend to set about that with all speed.

In relation to the question on the level of borrowing that the Welsh Government will be able to undertake, clearly, as with prudence in one’s household budget, the level of borrowing that one can undertake must be related to the potential for revenue raising—your potential income. There will be one level of borrowing possible for the Welsh Government with the minor taxes, but there will be a much higher level of borrowing if the Welsh Government and the Assembly go forward with a referendum and the people of Wales vote yes on that. The timing of the referendum is firmly in the hands of the Welsh Assembly and Welsh Government, and that is appropriate.

The noble Baroness asked about the model for income tax devolution. The Government have taken the view that the Scottish model is appropriate. It has been welcomed in many quarters and therefore it is a good model to follow in this case, particularly as Wales has a very porous border and people move all the time across the border—very much more than they do between Scotland and England. There was concern that the model of income tax put forward in the Silk commission report could lead to an imbalance in terms of tax receipts.

Finally, the noble Baroness referred to the October 2012 joint statement. She asked what would be the trigger for reviewing funding for Wales. The trigger would be agreement that convergence was occurring again. At the moment, there is divergence. It is estimated and, I believe, agreed by both the Treasury and the Welsh Government that it is likely to be at least 2017 before convergence occurs again. The Liberal Democrats have always been in favour of a very high level of devolution and I strongly welcome, as does my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales, the fact that I am able to make this Statement here today.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, may I remind the House of the benefit of short questions to my noble friend the Minister so that she can answer as many as possible? I can help.

[Lord Crickhowell (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the general thrust of this important Statement, based as it is on the Silk commission’s recommendations. To understand the import of the Statement it is necessary to read the accompanying paper that has been placed in the Public Bill Office. Paragraph 2.6 emphasises the enormous importance of,

“an integrated economic and fiscal union”,

and of the need to make sure that:

“Any changes to the funding of the Assembly and the Welsh Government must be consistent with maintaining the integrity of the system”.

There is nothing in the decisions announced by the Government that threatens that integrity. I refer to paragraph 2.12 of the document: the Government were particularly wise, in taking their decisions about income tax, to recognise that any distortion,

“of the redistributive structure (or progressivity) of the income tax system … could potentially be detrimental to the UK as a whole”.

The paragraph goes on:

“While the impacts are uncertain … this would be unprecedented in the United Kingdom”.

The Government are wise for the reasons that my noble friend has given. Perhaps I should declare an interest. I now live only 500 hundred yards or so from the border. The truth is that a great many people live close to the border and therefore the issues that she addressed are important. It is also very important that the issue of taxation should go to the Welsh people for a decision in a referendum. I welcome that.

I have a final question. There is emphasis again in the paper that has been laid before both Houses about the need to strengthen the institutional arrangements. The Welsh Government are going to have a major task in managing these new responsibilities. Has any estimate been made of the cost that will fall on the Welsh Government, and therefore on the Welsh people, of the institutional changes that will be needed?

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank my noble friend for his support on this issue and for underlining the importance of this Statement. I am proud of the record of the coalition Government: we have already, through our facilitating the referendum on increased full legislative powers for the Welsh Assembly, enabled one step forward on devolution to be taken. Today’s announcement heralds a second giant step forward for devolution. While expressing full confidence in the model of devolution throughout the United Kingdom, however, the Government have been concerned that we should not in any way undermine the union. It is important to bear that in mind.

My noble friend referred to the need to strengthen institutional arrangements. I cannot give him an estimate of the cost, because that strengthening is largely a matter for the Welsh Government. It is essential that they go ahead with this rapidly. I am aware that they are already in the process of strengthening their financial arrangements for establishing a Treasury function within the Welsh Government.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

The Minister understands that I support the thrust of the Silk report and the response of the Government, but can I press her on the way in which she is blindly following Scotland in insisting on the introduction of a lock-step rule whereby all three rates of income tax can only be varied in tandem, without the right to vary one rate independently of the other? In other words, if the Welsh Government wanted to bring down the top rate from 45 pence to 40 pence—an 11% reduction—there would have to be a 25% reduction in the standard rate of income tax, making such a choice totally impossible. Does she understand that the Holtham and Silk reports rejected such a lock-step approach? This not only denies the voters the choice of policy, but also flexibility to the Welsh Government and binds them into a straitjacket of relativities imposed on them by Westminster. Why do a Government who claim to support greater tax-varying flexibility in theory refuse to deliver it in practice?

[Baroness Randerson]

I am disappointed that the noble Lord, who has given a great deal of thought to this matter, has not been able to welcome the vast majority of the Government’s response. I take issue with the idea that we are blindly following Scotland. There is no blindness about this. The Treasury has made its decision on this, based on the evidence that it took in relation to the specific situation in Wales. I have already referred to the significance of the very porous border between England and Wales, and to the fact that so many people live close to and cross it on a daily basis. That was borne in mind by the commissioners at the Silk commission when they produced their report, and the Government have had to take that into account as well.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her Statement, and Mr Paul Silk and his fellow commissioners for the work that they have done.

In general, I welcome warmly the new powers for the Government of Wales, particularly borrowing powers, which are badly needed. But first, as the income tax proposals require a referendum, do I understand it correctly that the Welsh Ministers will campaign for a yes vote for all the tax powers proposed? Secondly, can the Minister clarify a problem that I have already raised with her at Question Time? Will the borrowing powers to be used for the upgrading of the M4 around Newport and other major road improvements in Wales be financed solely from the new powers of taxation, or will some funding still come from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and if so how much?

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, for referring to borrowing powers. As we discuss tax-raising powers, we should not overlook the significance and importance of borrowing powers, particularly as they will enable us to be fleet of foot and ensure that the Welsh Government get the money that they require.

The noble and learned Lord asks how Welsh Ministers will be campaigning in a referendum. I cannot speak for Welsh Ministers. They must make up their mind—they are members of a different party and Government from me. However, it seems fairly unlikely that a referendum would be called if they were going to campaign against it, but it is not impossible.

I am unable to give the noble and learned Lord a detailed answer on the precise funding model for the M4. That still has to be worked out. The devolved responsibility for infrastructure means that the burden of the repair and construction of roads in Wales falls on the Welsh Government to a very large extent.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, it is all very well saying that you are going to vote yes for a referendum. Would my noble friend the Minister be good enough to say who is going to frame the question which is to be put to the Welsh people? It has been noticeable that the First Minister, Mr Carwyn Jones, has not been overanxious to commit himself to timing for a referendum. Can we take it that the legislation will ensure that a referendum will be held and will not be deferred until some replacement for the Barnett formula has been found? In the 13 years of the previous Labour Government, they were unable to do that, despite all the pleas that were put to them at that time. Will my noble friend confirm that this referendum will go ahead with a proper question, within a reasonable time and with the Welsh Assembly having the power to determine precisely when?

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank my noble friend for raising two new issues, the first relating to the question for the referendum. The Government’s response on this has laid great emphasis on how well we believe arrangements worked for the previous referendum on full legislative powers. In that case, the matter was very much in the hands of the Welsh Government and Welsh Assembly in consultation with the UK Government. However, there was a very important role for the Electoral Commission, whose advice was taken and was pivotal. I hope that the Welsh Government will lead the call for a referendum and that the situation in Wales will enable them to lead that call relatively soon. It is important that the Welsh Government feel that they are in a position strongly to call for a referendum, because the UK Government believe that the joint statement of October 2012 meant that there was agreement between the two Governments on the way in which future funding for Wales would be dealt with.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, the document accompanying the Statement states:

“The precise levels of capital borrowing will … depend on the outcome of the income tax referendum”.

Twenty years ago when I chaired Gwent finance committee, I borrowed £37 million from the European Investment Bank and paid it back on time. If a county council had such borrowing powers 20 years ago, why cannot the Welsh Government now be trusted to borrow to invest according to their own assessment of their ability to service that debt, rather than wait upon a referendum?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord makes an excellent point; I, too, was a councillor a long time ago. We should bear in the mind that councils raise a significant amount of funding via what we nowadays call council tax. Therefore, their level of borrowing depends on their level of tax receipts. The UK Treasury is proposing exactly the same model for the Welsh Government.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, while applauding those impactive and genuine matters of devolutionary significance which are contained in the Statement, may I tempt the Minister to a wider consideration? Does she not agree that in so far as fundamental constitutional changes in the United Kingdom are concerned they should be planned and administered on a comprehensive, and not a piecemeal or haphazard, basis? In other words, once the Scottish people have given their verdict on the issue of independence, a powerful body of the wise, the good and the great should be set up to consider, first, the relationship of the House of Commons to the House of Lords and vice versa and, secondly, the relationship of Westminster government to devolved authorities, whether they be two or three in number. Does she agree that that is the only way in which we can avoid the humiliating debacle of what was called an attempt to reform this place two years ago?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord maintains a keen interest in constitutional issues and I have a similar interest in them—I do not always share the same prescription or viewpoint, but I have a similar interest. It is important that once the changes that we have proposed today have worked their way into legislation and the referendum on Scottish independence is dealt with, whatever the outcome, those people who look at constitutional issues start looking forward again. I have always espoused this rather neat and tidy approach to the British constitution, but that is not the way in which it has developed.

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

In welcoming this enhancement of devolution, I particularly welcome the improved prospect that we now have for the construction of the M4 relief road, which when it is opened will be of great benefit to quality of life and economic development in Newport and south-east Wales.

Perhaps I may press the Minister further on the points rightly raised by my noble and learned friend Lord Morris of Aberavon and my noble friend Lord Touhig on the funding of infrastructure. The Statement seemed to suggest, entirely implausibly, that, as a result of these changes, the land of Wales would flow with milk and honey and that the Welsh economy would be rejuvenated. Surely she recognises that the substantial cost of investment in transport and other infrastructure needed in Wales can be met only in limited part—I would say in small part—by the revenues from the minor taxes that are to be devolved and the limited borrowing powers that are proposed for Wales. Surely devolution should not mean an opportunity for the Treasury to be off the hook and for the important infrastructure needs of Wales to continue to be neglected.

[Baroness Randerson]

I know that the noble Lord is very conversant with the problems of the M4, and in the Newport area in particular. I am glad that he has welcomed the contribution that these changes will make to alleviating them.

The early part of the Statement set out the contribution that the UK Government have made to infrastructure in Wales, in particular railway infrastructure. The noble Lord needs to bear in mind that when an issue has been devolved the funding is devolved as well. If there are flaws in the devolution settlement in Wales, we have to look back to the Government of Wales Act 2006 and the original devolution settlement at the end of the last century. It has possibly been difficult in the past for the Welsh Government to deal with major infrastructure projects, which is exactly why we say that, as well as devolution of minor taxes, there needs to be a referendum to offer the people of Wales the opportunities given by the devolution of a portion of income tax.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

Given that the current settlement has been recognised as inadequately taking into account the high number of older people in Wales who are not economically active and the demands that those with multiple comorbidities put on health and social care, and given the widely acknowledged poverty of infrastructure of roads and other forms of communication, particularly IT and telephones, will the Government undertake to review the funding settlement that followed the Act so that, during the transition phase, there can be some correction in the perceived deficit in core funding to Wales?

[Baroness Randerson]

I remind the noble Baroness of the October 2012 joint statement in which the Welsh and UK Governments acknowledged the procedure that would be followed in future if Welsh funding were again to become unfair in terms of further convergence. The settlement has been set out very clearly in that joint statement, so it is important that she bears that in mind for future reference.

European Parliamentary Elections (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2013

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Monday 4th November 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

That the draft regulations laid before the House on 18 July be approved.

Relevant document: 9th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 29 October.

Motion agreed.

Wales: Financial Powers

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Monday 4th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to give additional financial powers to the National Assembly for Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, the Government announced on Friday that they will implement the key recommendations made by the Silk commission in its first report and will enable the Welsh Government to use their existing limited borrowing powers to improve the M4 motorway as soon as possible. I will issue a Written Statement on this to your Lordships’ House this afternoon.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I hope that this Question standing on the Order Paper helped to expedite the long-awaited response from the Prime Minister, which I welcome as far as it goes. Will the Minister confirm that she and the Government accept that the Silk report presented a balanced package, and that cherry picking that package would unravel it? Will she therefore state by when the other 20 or so recommendations that were not covered on Friday will be announced? Will they be in the Statement that she will make this afternoon? In particular, will she give an assurance that the legislation necessary to enact all the commitments that were made on Friday will be on the statute book before the next general election?

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord for his Question. Undoubtedly the continued interest in this issue from all sides of the House and well beyond it will have had an influence on ensuring that we had a positive response to the Silk commission’s first report. The Silk commission made 33 recommendations but the announcement on Friday did not go into detail on many of those. A full response to the Silk report will be issued in the next couple of months so that we will be able to deal with this by the end of the year. The intention is that a draft Wales Bill will incorporate Silk recommendations that the Government have accepted, where legislation is necessary. The Government intend to pursue that, if possible, in the fourth Session of this Parliament.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, I was glad to hear the Prime Minister say on Friday that he believed in devolution. I was hoping for the Welsh Secretary to say something on his visit too. Does he also believe in devolution? In the absence of a more equitable allocation of financial resources by Westminster to Wales, do the Prime Minister’s proposals mean that to fund matters such as a Newport road development, Wales will be expected to pay for them out of new Welsh taxes?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord has asked two essential questions. My colleague the Secretary of State for Wales has worked extremely hard to ensure that this report has had a positive response from the UK Government. I remind the noble Lord that there was an agreement in October 2012 between the Welsh Government and the UK Government on the future of the Barnett formula. The agreement was that there would be a review process at each spending review, and that if there was future convergence—if that started again—then it would be dealt with by the two Governments working together.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

My Lords, can the Minister tell me whether the question for a referendum will be devised by the Westminster Parliament or by the Welsh Assembly in Cardiff? Secondly, does she have any idea of a timetable for the referendum and the implementation of whatever it might decide?

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank my noble friend for those questions. We will provide for the referendum by primary legislation here in Parliament but it will be the responsibility of the Assembly to trigger the referendum, and it is right that the timing should lie in their hands. In relation to the actual question, there will be discussions between the UK Government and the Welsh Government but it will be for the Electoral Commission to study any suggested question and to provide advice, in the way that occurred at the previous referendum in Wales.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

I thank the Government for eventually responding last week in such a positive way to the recommendations of the Silk commission. Will the Minister explain, however, why they failed to grant permission specifically for long-haul air passenger duty and the aggregates levy to be devolved, as recommended by the commission?

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. Regarding the aggregates levy, the noble Baroness will recall that the Silk commission referred to issues associated with that in relation to the European Union and permission for that. Therefore, until that is resolved, it is not appropriate that that goes forward. On long-haul air passenger duty, the Government are not yet persuaded of the case, but I urge noble Lords in general to await the full response in relation to the reasoning behind these recommendations to ensure that there is a full picture, which will come in the forthcoming weeks.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, I would like to ask a general question with regard to the transfer of powers to Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. As the Minister will know, in relation to Scotland and Northern Ireland, transfer was on an all-embracing basis subject to a few specific clear exceptions. With Wales, the situation is very different. It is all piecemeal, sometimes involving hundreds of minor transfers over the years. Will the Government look kindly, therefore, upon a proposal that the situation in Wales should equate to that of Scotland and Northern Ireland, thereby bringing cohesion and simplicity and saving a whole generation of Welsh lawyers from constitutional neurosis?

[Baroness Randerson]

I am aware of the noble Lord’s continued interest in this issue. I am aware, too, that this point has been raised by a number of people. But I remind noble Lords that this is an issue for part two of the Silk commission, and something on which it is already working. I remind noble Lords that the remit of the commission was to look at modifications to the devolution settlement.

European Parliamentary Elections (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2013

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2013 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the European Parliamentary Elections (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2013.

Relevant document: 9th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the draft European Parliamentary Elections (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2013, which were laid before the House on 18 July, be considered.

These regulations update the administrative framework for European parliamentary elections in Northern Ireland ahead of the poll scheduled for 22 May 2014. The regulations implement an EU Council directive and amend the current rules for European parliamentary elections to make changes which have already been made in respect of parliamentary and local elections in Northern Ireland. We consulted the Electoral Commission and the Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland, and his office, on the draft regulations.

On the implementation of EU Council Directive 2013/1/EU, these regulations amend the European Parliamentary Elections (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2004 to transpose, for Northern Ireland, the changes made by the directive. The Council directive concerns the right to stand as a candidate in elections to the European Parliament for citizens of the Union who live in a member state of which they are not nationals. In the UK, this means an EU citizen who wants to stand for election in the UK but is not a UK, Irish or Commonwealth citizen—in simple terms, an “EU candidate”.

At previous European elections, each EU candidate had themselves to obtain a certificate from their home member state that they had not been disqualified from standing in European parliamentary elections by a decision in that member state. They had to provide that certificate when submitting their nomination. This was perceived to be a barrier preventing EU candidates from standing for election, so the law was changed at EU level. From the 2014 polls, under the new directive the UK Government will be obliged to request information from the candidate’s home member state, instead of the candidate being required to do so. This requirement will be applied across all EU member states. Similar legislation for Great Britain was brought forward by the Cabinet Office and debated in this House on 15 October. However, the use of the single transferable vote system in Northern Ireland means that the implementation of the directive must be slightly different in Northern Ireland. I reassure the Committee that Irish citizens in the UK are treated on the same basis as British citizens for these purposes; the changes apply only to citizens of the Union who are not British, Irish or Commonwealth citizens.

I now turn to the changes being made by these regulations which reflect changes that have already been made for other elections in Northern Ireland. First, as noble Lords will be aware, the Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013 provides that persons who are inside the polling station, or queuing outside the polling station, at the close of the poll—that is, at 10 pm on polling day—can apply for a ballot paper. These regulations make the same change in respect of European Parliamentary elections in Northern Ireland.

It is also worth noting that no provision is made in these regulations in relation to the delivery of postal ballot papers by persons queuing at polling stations. This is because, in contrast to Great Britain, delivery of postal ballots to polling stations is not permitted. In Northern Ireland postal ballot papers must be delivered directly to the returning officer.

Secondly, as noble Lords will know, voters applying for a ballot paper in Northern Ireland are required to present identification. In 2010, amendments were introduced to include European Community licences within the definition of a “driving licence” in the prescribed documents that can be produced when a voter applies for a ballot paper for parliamentary and local elections. These regulations make the same change in respect of European parliamentary elections.

Thirdly, amendments were made to absent voting provisions in 2010 for parliamentary and local elections. These regulations make the same changes for European parliamentary elections. Applicants for a postal vote are now required to give an explanation when applying for a ballot paper to be sent to a different address from that in the register.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

Changes are also made to the requirements in relation to attestation of applications for an absent vote on the grounds of blindness or other disability.

The regulations make two further necessary amendments relating to the conduct of European parliamentary elections. Polling districts and places designated for European parliamentary elections in Northern Ireland were previously the same as those used for parliamentary elections and, in turn, polling places for parliamentary elections were based on those for local elections. As a result of local government reform in Northern Ireland, the local government boundaries will no longer be the same as the parliamentary boundaries and so the polling station schemes for local and parliamentary elections will need to be different.

These regulations provide that polling places for European parliamentary elections will now be the same as those for local elections. However, they also give the chief electoral officer the flexibility to use some different polling districts and places if special circumstances make it desirable to do so. For example, if a parliamentary or Northern Ireland Assembly election poll were combined with a European parliamentary election poll, it might be more appropriate to use the parliamentary polling districts.

The final amendment being made by these regulations is to make it an offence in Northern Ireland for a person to stand as a candidate in a European parliamentary election in more than one electoral region in the United Kingdom. This is already an offence in Great Britain.

I hope that you will agree that this is a sensible set of regulations necessary to facilitate the European parliamentary election in Northern Ireland next year. I commend them to the Committee.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her clear exposition of the regulations. Most, if not all, of it has been the subject of a considerable amount of scrutiny in various bodies. They obviously have our full support.

I have a couple of questions and comments, in case any explanations are available. Paragraph 7.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum states that the deadline for a candidate to submit nomination papers remains the 19th day before the poll. It goes on to say that:

“any ‘EU candidate’ wishing to stand will need to submit a declaration that they are not disqualified to the returning officer at the electoral office headquarters … by 4 pm on the 24th day before the polling day (i.e. 5 working days before the close of nominations)”.

It goes on to say that returning officers send a copy of the declaration to the Secretary of State who then contacts the candidate’s home member state to ask for information about the EU candidate’s eligibility to stand for election. The Secretary of State will then send any response back to the returning officer.

Can the Minister give us any indication if there was any background discussion about the tightness of that timetable, because it seems a possible hiccup? The Explanatory Memorandum continues:

“EU candidates who miss the 24th day deadline may themselves obtain confirmation of their eligibility to stand from their home member state. If such information confirms that the candidate is not disqualified, it can be submitted by the candidate together with the specific declaration on another nomination paper by the 19th day before the poll”.

However, what follows is causing me a bit of anxiety:

“In most cases, the information will have been received in relation to an EU candidate’s eligibility by the close of nominations on the 19th day before the poll. If it is not received by then, the EU candidate will nonetheless remain on the ballot paper. In the unlikely event that information is received after the close of nominations from the EU candidate’s home member State indicating that the EU candidate is disqualified, the EU candidate will be excluded from the election at the first stage of the count and his or her votes will be transferred to the next available preference indicated on the ballot paper”.

Were there any discussions about this and was any consideration given to coming up with a better solution that this? When someone casts their vote, for that vote then to be excluded—disqualified—risks calling into question the democratic credentials of the election itself. The Minister might now have an account of the conversations that took place on these two situations and I would be grateful if she could repeat them.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments and for indicating his support in general terms. I also thank him for his questions. I shall address first the issue of the five-day timetable and how tight it is. The timetable is the same as that used in Great Britain and the system will be familiar to other member states. That is because the obligation is on every member state of the EU to behave in a similar manner. All member states will be alert to the need for swift action on this. It is also worth pointing out that in these days of electronic communications, referring back to the previous debate in this Committee, the timetables can be very much tighter than in the past.

I turn to the issue of a disqualified candidate appearing on the ballot paper and the possibility of finding a different way of dealing with it than simply reallocating the votes. Of course, in Great Britain the system of elections is different in that it consists of party lists, so the vote would simply pass on to the next candidate on that list, but with STV in Northern Ireland, obviously that is not possible. However, it is also possible for the chief electoral officer to take any measures he sees fit in order to alert voters to the situation. For example, it would be perfectly reasonable, in those circumstances, to expect the chief electoral officer to put up posters at polling stations to inform voters that one of the candidates appearing on the ballot paper had been disqualified. In terms of the tightness of the timetable all round in these issues, it is worth pointing out that the whole process cannot be put into place until the nomination forms have been received. There is a set of rules to determine how many days are available from nomination to the election. The period cannot be made too long for obvious reasons, and all these procedures have to be fitted in. I hope that the noble Lord will agree that the suggested solutions are a practical way forward.

[Lord McAvoy]

Before the Minister sits down, has any discussion taken place about the possibility of the system being manipulated? For example, if a candidate with a similar name to someone else on the ballot paper, or a similar party, failed to meet the system but remained on the ballot paper, where would the votes go? Perhaps it is a bit far-fetched but, as an experienced election agent, I can think of ways of confusing the public by the manipulation of names of candidates on the ballot paper, but maybe I am being too paranoid.

[Baroness Randerson]

I can tell the noble Lord that there have been some very thorough discussions and consultations on this set of regulations. As I indicated in my speech, the Electoral Commission, the chief electoral officer, the chief returning officer and so on have been fully consulted on this. Of course, all these proposals are made against the background of more stringent checks which have taken place over many years in Northern Ireland in order to deal with electoral fraud. These are businesslike and reasonable regulations that will address all foreseeable issues of this nature.

Motion agreed.

Northern Ireland: Abortion

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they will take in the wake of reports last week on BBC Northern Ireland concerning access to terminations for women in Northern Ireland who are carrying foetuses with severe abnormalities and wish to end their pregnancy.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, the Abortion Act 1967 does not extend to Northern Ireland, where abortion law is governed by the Offences Against the Person Act 1861. Constitutionally, abortion law in Northern Ireland is a transferred matter. It is therefore the responsibility of Northern Ireland Executive Ministers and so not a matter where Her Majesty’s Government have any powers to intervene.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

I was hoping to have a slightly more hopeful Answer from the noble Baroness, but I thank her for what she said. I hope that she will join me in congratulating the Mary Stopes clinic, which, tomorrow, is marking the first anniversary of its operation in Belfast. I had hoped that she might refer to the review that is taking place about the issue. That review is welcome, but, until it is completed, would it not be fair for Northern Ireland women who need and want terminations under these very unhappy circumstances to have them provided free under the NHS elsewhere in the UK, where that provision is not illegal? Would the noble Baroness care to reflect on the issue raised about how women in one part of the UK are denied rights and access to terminations that are available to all other women in the UK? I recognise that devolution is devolution, but surely it was not intended to achieve this unsatisfactory outcome for women in Northern Ireland.

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Baroness will be aware that this case raises some very difficult issues and is very distressing. However, the current difference in legislation means that women travelling to England for an abortion generally make their own arrangements and fund the procedure themselves. To make exceptions to that would be a major departure from the system of residence-based responsibility and the separation of powers between the health services in the four jurisdictions of the UK. The noble Baroness will recognise that this is a sensitive issue that the previous Labour Government, when they were putting in place the devolution settlement, believed should be left to the people of Northern Ireland to decide for themselves.

[Baroness Gould of Potternewton (Lab)]

My Lords, I am a little surprised by the Minister’s first reply and I would be grateful for clarification. In 2011, the Government supported a report from the Irish Family Planning Association to the CEDAW periodic review saying that there should be a revision of abortion law in Northern Ireland. I fail to understand why the Government did that if the Minister is right in her argument. I add that this year, again, CEDAW has told the British Government that they need to expedite an amendment to the anti-abortion law in Northern Ireland and create a law to ensure that legal abortion covers circumstances such as threats to a woman’s health and cases of serious malformation of the foetus. As a signatory to CEDAW, when are the Government going to honour their commitments?

[Baroness Randerson]

I think it is important that the UK Government observe the devolution settlement. However, I think it is also important, as the noble Baroness mentioned, that there is consideration of the situation in Northern Ireland. I draw the attention of noble Lords to the comments of David Ford, Justice Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive, who has made it very clear that this issue needs to be reconsidered. Indeed, the Health Minister in Northern Ireland has made similar comments about the current legislation and its applicability in this case. However, it is not an issue for the UK Government.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)]

Is my noble friend aware that some 14 years ago, when we were legislating on setting up the devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales, there was serious debate in both Houses about where responsibility for administering the law on abortion should lie? The decision was taken—in my view, quite rightly—that the law should be uniform throughout the UK, so why should we leave Northern Ireland with an 1861 piece of legislation?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord is, of course, very much more aware of the background to this situation than I am. However, the current situation is as the previous Government intended it to be—abortion law in Northern Ireland is left to the Northern Ireland Assembly. It would not be acceptable—I am sure that it would not be acceptable to the people of Northern Ireland—for us to seek to change that unilaterally. I also draw the attention of noble Lords to the fact that when the Northern Ireland Assembly discussed new guidelines on abortion in 2007 they were unanimously rejected by Assembly Members.

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her comments on the fact that abortion is a reserved matter for Northern Ireland and should continue so to be. Is she aware that abortions do occur in Northern Ireland and that there is an ongoing legal duty to recognise that the unborn child, whatever its state of health, is deserving of protection? Is it not the case that England and Wales now needs to reconsider the law on abortion, given that we have a situation in which it is lawful to terminate the life of a baby simply because that baby is a little girl?

[Baroness Randerson]

On the first point, it is, of course, very much an issue for the people of Northern Ireland. It is a devolved matter and I believe that there is no wish in Northern Ireland for that to change. I would, however, make it absolutely clear to the noble Baroness that it is very certainly not legal to terminate a pregnancy on the grounds of the sex of the child. An investigation into a recent case made that absolutely clear and the Chief Medical Officer will be issuing additional guidance to doctors in the very near future to make sure that that is perfectly clear to all those involved.

Northern Ireland

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 16th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)]

My Lords, with the permission of the House, I will repeat a Statement made by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in the other place. The Statement is as follows:

“I am sure the whole House will join me in condemning this shameful violence and in expressing our profound sympathy and support for the police officers who have been injured. It is also a matter of the gravest concern that the right honourable Member for Belfast North was knocked unconscious as he tried to calm the situation on the streets of his constituency. I am certain that I speak for everyone here in wishing him well.

On Friday evening, following the annual 12 July parades, around 5,000 people gathered to protest against the Parades Commission determination not to allow three Orange Lodges to return home past the nationalist Ardoyne area. This has been the scene of serious disorder in recent years, including shots fired at police by dissident republicans. Violence erupted as the crowd reached the police line on Woodvale Road preventing access to the route past the Ardoyne shop fronts. This has been followed by further disturbances and rioting on each night since then, mainly in the Woodvale Parade/Twaddell Avenue area, but also in the Newtownards Road in east Belfast, Mount Vernon in north Belfast, Rathcoole in Newtownabbey, Portadown and Ballyclare.

During these disturbances, the police have come under attack from a variety of weapons including fireworks, petrol bombs, bottles, stones, bits of masonry, iron bars and ceremonial swords. Last night, four blast bombs were thrown at police officers in east Belfast and a pipe bomb from Brompton Park in the Ardoyne. Water cannon and AEP plastic bullet rounds have been discharged on four successive nights, and 71 police officers have been injured.

I am well aware of the anger felt by many people over the Parades Commission determination in relation to Ardoyne but, however strongly people feel, there can be no justification, or excuse, for the behaviour we have seen in recent days. Attacks on the police are wholly unacceptable and I condemn them without hesitation or reservation. It is also utterly disgraceful that the right honourable Member for Belfast North found himself the victim of this violence, too.

There has been talk of attacks on British identity and culture in Northern Ireland. Well, the sort of behaviour that has been taking place in north Belfast does nothing to promote Britishness or the pro-Union cause; rather, it undermines it in the eyes of the overwhelming majority of people in Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. In fact, it is hard to think of anything less British and less patriotic than wrapping yourself in a union flag and going out to attack the people who are there to maintain the rule of law and protect the whole community.

So now it is the responsibility of everyone with influence, including the Orange Order, community leaders and politicians, to do what we can to defuse tensions and calm the situation. We need temperate language over the coming days, and I am afraid that the Orange Order needs to reflect carefully on its role in encouraging mass protests on Friday, in a highly volatile situation, without the careful planning, stewarding and engagement with the police that is so important for keeping people safe when big crowds gather together. While the Orange Order’s announcement of the suspension of its protests was welcome, it is now time for it to call them off completely.

I would like to pay tribute to the outstanding work of the Police Service of Northern Ireland over recent days. Its officers have demonstrated fortitude, determination and courage in defending the rule of law. They have put their own safety on the line in the face of violent attacks and deserve our utmost praise, support and thanks, as do the police officers from Great Britain who provided mutual aid support. I would like to commend the leadership of chief constable Matt Baggott and Justice Minister David Ford. I know that meticulous planning took place to ensure that everything possible was done to try to keep people safe over the weekend of 12 July, including bringing approximately 1,000 mutual aid officers from Great Britain.

Of the 4,000 or so parades that take place annually in Northern Ireland, the vast majority pass off without major problems, including hundreds on 12 July. But any rioting is unacceptable, not least because it undermines efforts to secure economic recovery for Northern Ireland and because it makes competing in the global race for jobs and investment that much more difficult. The way forward has to be through dialogue to find sustainable local solutions to contentious parades, as has been the case in, for example, Derry/Londonderry.

I welcomed the talks that took place between members of the Orange Order and Ardoyne residents before the Parades Commission determination. I know how difficult this will be after what has happened, but I believe that it is vital that local dialogue continues. I also welcome inclusion of parading in the remit of the Executive’s all-party working group and the appointment of the distinguished US former envoy to Northern Ireland, Richard Haass, to chair it. The Government have always made it clear that we are open to a devolved solution on parading if one can be found but, in the mean time, we will not tolerate lawlessness on the streets of Belfast any more than we would in any other UK city.

Last week in this Chamber, issues were raised regarding my powers in relation to Parades Commission determinations. They are set out in the Public Processions (Northern Ireland) Act 1998. Section 9 states that the Secretary of State can only review a determination made by the Parades Commission following a request by the chief constable. The reason why he has not made such a request is because at all times he has been confident that the officers under his command can police the situation, and I fully share that confidence.

So to those on the streets over recent days taking part in this violence I say this. So far, 60 arrests have been made and emergency courts were sitting on Sunday to accelerate the criminal justice process. But that is just the start. No stone will be left unturned in building the case needed for more arrests and more criminal convictions. Those who engage in so-called recreational rioting and attacks on police officers can expect to face the full force of the law. I am confident that for some that will mean that the next 12 July holiday will be spent not in the sunshine following the parades, but locked up in prison living with the consequences of the crimes that they have committed”.

My Lords, I commend this Statement to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments, and particularly welcome his condemnation of the violence and the stress he laid on the importance of respect in the situation in which Northern Ireland finds itself. I also thank him for his support for those so closely involved in controlling the violence. They have had a very difficult job in the past few days.

The noble Lord asked a number of questions. Seventy-one police have been injured and we believe that six have been hospitalised, of whom two were police serving under the mutual aid scheme. There were more than 1,000 mutual aid officers in Northern Ireland at the weekend and yesterday.

The noble Lord asked about the cost of the problem and who bears it. This is where the real tragedy lies financially, because the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland bears that cost. That puts even greater stress and pressure on the police budget. The economic implications are very serious because of the impact it has on Northern Ireland, but it has immediately a massive financial impact on the Department of Justice.

The noble Lord asked about paramilitary involvement. That is something that will be very carefully investigated. He also asked about the Secretary of State’s discussions. She has had a whole range of conversations and meetings, both prior to and over the weekend. She was, of course, in Northern Ireland throughout this period. She is very supportive of the work that will be done by Richard Haass and the work that is being done by the Executive, the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, to bring a more peaceful situation back into play.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, before the clerk starts the Clock, in the interests of all noble Lords with an interest in this matter, may I remind the House that the Companion guides us that all Statements are an opportunity for brief questions only?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend for repeating this Statement. I am happy to endorse her condemnation of shameful violence and to express sympathy. But can we also do some encouraging? There is still one gap from the Belfast agreement which was toyed with for a period and then put aside. That is the engagement of a civic forum, so that there can be genuine discussion with so many people about the shared future that Northern Ireland needs.

I have one further point and a question. It is one thing having these anniversaries and annual events—we worry about what is going to happen on the 12th—but we are moving to a period when we are going to be celebrating centenaries. These centenaries will be coming up very shortly. They are opportunities to celebrate, but some might see them as opportunities to be violent. Will my noble friend confirm that there are real plans and thought-through initiatives with this Government and the Government of Ireland and the devolved Assembly, to see that when the centenaries are celebrated, they really are celebrated and do not provide a further opportunity for violence?

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord for his questions. In relation to his comments about a civic forum, the situation in Northern Ireland is such that this process is worth reconsidering. In view of the recent A Shared Future document, issued by the Executive, and the recent Cardiff conference, which addressed issues of concern from the past and dealt with facing the decade of anniversaries and centenaries to which the noble Lord referred, this is an interesting concept which I am sure will be raised again and again. It would obviously help to engage a wider spectrum of the community in dealing with these problems. I have used his name already, but Richard Haass has, of course, the issue of the anniversaries that are coming up within his remit of reviewing of the past and how it should be dealt with. It will undoubtedly be something which is of interest to him in his work.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, the riots must of course be condemned without any reservation whatever. However, it is important to analyse their cause, is it not? Unless we understand the cause, we will never get the solution. Can the noble Baroness confirm that many Members of our House approached her last week to warn her that there could well be violence as a result of the determination made by the Northern Ireland Parades Commission? The violence was predictable and predicted. Can she confirm that the chief constable concluded that he could not police the decision of the Parades Commission: that the PSNI would be incapable of doing so? As a result, 16% of police officers on the streets of Northern Ireland are now from England, Wales and Scotland. That is the kind of situation that the Parades Commission has led us into in Northern Ireland. Would it not be better if we had a Parades Commission that had widespread consent in Northern Ireland and attracted support? At the moment, it does not. Would it not be better to have an independent chairman of the commission who is not tainted by party politics, has not been involved in an elected position against unionism but is totally impartial and independent?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord referred to an informal meeting held last week. It is indeed the case that the Parades Commission’s determination was discussed at that meeting and a number of views were put. I have to say to the noble Lord that the chief constable was confident that he could police the parades but felt that it was important to have additional support under the mutual aid scheme. It is indeed the purpose of that scheme that events such as this should be dealt with in that way. The noble Lord referred to the status of the Parades Commission. It is of course a lawfully constituted authority that is independent of government. Its determinations must be obeyed. It is not a devolved authority and was set up by an Act of Parliament. It is essential that its determinations are duly obeyed on all sides in Northern Ireland. It is important to note also that the decisions of the PSNI, the chief constable and the Parades Commission, and the way in which they acted, were based on the experience of previous years and the problems that had previously been experienced at this time of year.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, many of us will feel utterly dismayed, saddened and angry at the events in Belfast when, yet again, the PSNI bravely had to bear the burden of this violence unleashed at it. Does the Minister agree that one of the tragedies is that there seems to be very little political leadership for the loyalist community? There was such leadership at the time of the Good Friday agreement, and it gave the loyalist community a sense that they had a stake in what was happening. I ask the Minister and her colleague the Secretary of State to engage in discussions with the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and David Ford to examine what the problems are in parts of Belfast where members of the loyalist community seem to have the sense that there is nothing for them in the peace process. They are then too easily persuaded that the only way out is violence against the police. Real problems need to be addressed in the loyalist community in terms of lack of jobs and hope for the future. Will the Minister and the Secretary of State take an initiative with the people in Northern Ireland to deal with that?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord makes some extremely important points, and there is the issue of there having been a process of change in loyalist politics and its leadership—but that is now devolved in large part, and the leadership in the Assembly has to develop from within and cannot be dictated from outside. I agree with the noble Lord about the significance of poverty among many in the loyalist communities in Belfast. It is therefore all the more important that Northern Ireland makes the most of the economic package which was agreed recently between my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and the Executive, the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. That economic package had a specific purpose of reinvigorating the economy in the poorest parts of Belfast.

[Baroness O'Loan]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tebbit]

Is it not the case that violence begets violence? The Parades Commission gave in to the violence of the republican community against these parades. Now, of course, they are faced with the violence of the unionist community against the surrender to the republicans’ violence. How do you break out of that?

[Baroness Randerson]

The Parades Commission makes its decisions based on the evidence before it and according to the protocols it follows. As I have said, the Parades Commission is independent, it is at arm’s length from Government and it is the duly constituted authority undertaking an extraordinarily difficult, problematic task. It has to deal with that to the best of its understanding. I hope that noble Lords will accept that the work of the Parades Commission is very difficult indeed. I thank the noble Lord for his question.

[Lord Rogan]

My Lords, I, too, join in condemning the widespread violence, and in expressing my sympathy and support for the police officers of Northern Ireland. I should like to pay tribute to the valiant work of the Police Service of Northern Ireland over recent days and weeks. Its officers have shown their professionalism and personal courage in defending the rule of law and protecting society. I come from a police family. I have many relatives who served in the RUC. I personally served as a special constable for many years, and today, I have a son and daughter-in-law who stood on the streets of Belfast hour after hour over the past few days. So let us also recognise the support and the encouragement these officers receive from their families at home, wondering night by night in what condition their loved ones will return.

Since assuming office, the Secretary of State has been less than visible. The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, made a very interesting contribution. Can the Minister emphasise to the Secretary of State how crucial it is that she engage with, and be seen to engage with, the authorities in Northern Ireland to help alleviate the social, economic and cultural problems which contribute to the volatile situation in unionist working class areas?

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord for his moving tribute to the police. That tribute to their bravery, from first-hand experience, is very significant and says far more than anything that I could say standing here today.

The noble Lord referred to the significance of the leadership provided by the Secretary of State. It is important to remember that many of the levers that used to be within the hands of the Secretary of State no longer are, as policing and justice are devolved. However, the Secretary of State retains the ability to intervene if, following the determination of the Parades Commission, the chief constable of the PSNI had believed that he could not cope with the situation. However, he never felt that.

Perhaps I may make a very important point. The Secretary of State had the Justice Minister, the PSNI and the Parades Commission around the table for discussions prior to 12 July. Those were significant discussions and very important leadership was shown. The Secretary of State was there throughout the weekend and she is there on a very regular basis. There is no question of her lacking active engagement in this issue.

[Baroness O'Loan]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the widespread community support for the Parades Commission and of the fact that there are now very few contentious parades that remain to be resolved? The situation in respect of those contentious parades can be resolved only by discussion. Is she also aware of the extent of the work that was done, for example, in Derry to achieve the level of harmony which existed on 12 July this year?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Baroness makes a really important point—that is, to refer us to the past and indirectly to point out the terrible situation that existed prior to the existence of the Parades Commission. It is important to bear in mind that there are many hundreds—thousands—of parades at this time of year in Northern Ireland. The city of Derry/Londonderry, for example, has done a superb job in making sure that its parades are successful and enjoyable and that they do not cause trouble. I had an extremely interesting meeting with the mayor of Derry/Londonderry, in which he pointed out the very simple and straightforward ways in which the sting has been taken out of the situation in that important city. I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness when she says that the Parades Commission has widespread support. The vast majority of the public in Northern Ireland are not interested in a return to the problems of the past.

[Lord Morgan]

My Lords, Griffith observed that Irish history was trapped between the dead past and the prophetic future. Is this not a particularly tragic and all-too-familiar example of it? This is exploiting a battle that happened well over 300 years ago for sectarian provocative purposes. It seems to me that the problems lie far deeper than simply the social and economic circumstances of Northern Ireland. Could there not be a totally different way of celebrating the cultural and historic traditions of unionism? By definition, these events are going to be violent and produce casualties. We know that they are—it happens every year. They are as much a part of the calendar of our country as, let us say, Remembrance Sunday, and they have equally sad connotations. Is there not some peaceful historic or cultural way of celebrating unionism rather than these provocative battles? If not then frankly it is not worth celebrating.

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord, coming from the same part of the world as I do, is well aware of the importance of history to us all. It is of course extremely sad when history becomes so embroiled in violence. I say to him that it is important that as the years go by the people of Northern Ireland are able to embrace the future, and to let go of the past while not ignoring or neglecting it. They should be able to celebrate it in a positive way. I point to the importance of the Derry/Londonderry City of Culture in that transition process, because it does not shy away from the traditions and problems of the past. It embraces them and makes them part of a cultural experience.

[Lord Browne of Belmont]

I join the Minister in condemning unreservedly the recent street violence in Belfast, and in paying tribute to the bravery and strength of the police men and women from all parts of the United Kingdom who formed the front line in protecting the rule of law. However, does the Minister agree with me that the remit of the proposed all-party talks, under the chairmanship of Richard Haass, should include consideration of a change in the law to make the default position an unrestricted right to parade peacefully anywhere in Northern Ireland, unfettered by the arbitrary edicts of an unelected quango? Surely this is the only acceptable legal model for the mature and tolerant society which we are all trying to create in Northern Ireland.

[Baroness Randerson]

I join the noble Lord in the hope that in future years it will be possible to hold parades that are entirely peaceful. Unfortunately, the events of this year have made his hopes even further off than they were before.

Natural Resources Body for Wales (Consequential Provision) Order 2013

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 16th July 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

That the draft order laid before the House on 3 June be approved.

Relevant document: 3rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 8 July.

Motion agreed.

Natural Resources Body for Wales (Consequential Provision) Order 2013

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Monday 8th July 2013 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Natural Resources Body for Wales (Consequential Provision) Order 2013.

Relevant document: Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)]

This order was laid before the House on 3 June 2013. First, I apologise to noble Lords for an error that appeared in paragraph 3.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum. The memorandum omitted to note that Part 7 of the draft order will apply retrospectively from 1 April 2013. Part 7 concerns transitional and savings provisions. This is in line with the provisions for Parts 1 to 5, and Articles 29 to 31. This administrative error has been amended, and corrected versions are now available.

The order is made under Section 150 of the Government of Wales Act 2006, which allows for consequential amendments to primary and secondary legislation in consequence of provisions made by an Assembly Act or subordinate legislation. The order is made as a consequence of the Natural Resources Body for Wales (Functions) Order 2013, brought forward by the Welsh Ministers, which was approved by the National Assembly on 19 March 2013. I shall refer to this as the functions order. The order transferred functions in relation to Wales from the Environment Agency and the Forestry Commission to the new body, Natural Resources Wales. It also abolished the Countryside Council for Wales and transferred its functions to the new Natural Resources Body for Wales.

This consequential order provides for the completion of legal arrangements for the Environment Agency, the Forestry Commission and Natural Resources Wales to operate together in their respective areas in the most effective and efficient manner. For example, it makes provision to remove Welsh Ministers from the appointment and funding of the Environment Agency and the Forestry Commission. It also amends the Environment Act 1995 to ensure that the new Natural Resources Body for Wales can make appropriate charging schemes in relation to the EU Emissions Trading Scheme, and that the Environment Agency and the Natural Resources Body for Wales can make cross-border arrangements for cost recovery and charging for water abstracting licences.

In preparing this consequential order, the Wales Office worked closely with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and other key UK government departments, as well as the Welsh Government. We are all agreed that the provisions in this order are necessary to ensure that Natural Resources Wales can exercise its functions to fulfil its remit and co-operate effectively with its counterpart organisations across the UK.

This order is also important to the UK. Without it, the Environment Agency and Forestry Commission in England will be unable to delegate their functions to the Natural Resources Body for Wales and similar bodies across the border, and would therefore be unable to fulfil their remit efficiently and cost-effectively. For example, in the event of a pollution incident in Wales that impacted on England, the Environment Agency in England would not be able to delegate the clean-up to the Natural Resources Body for Wales. This could result in unnecessary duplication of decision-making and deployment of staff, and a waste of Environment Agency resources. That is just one example of the importance of this order to both the UK and Welsh Governments.

This order demonstrates the UK Government’s continued commitment to working with the Welsh Government to make the devolution settlement work. I hope that noble Lords will agree that this order is a sensible use of the powers in the Government of Wales Act 2006 and that the practical result is something to be welcomed. I commend this order to the Committee.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for introducing the order so clearly. She will perhaps be relieved to know that I have not suddenly taken on shadow Welsh Office responsibilities but that in the comradely spirit of the Front Bench I am helping out and using my experience in shadowing Defra to have a look at the order and make sure that everything is as it should be from our point of view.

I can say from the outset that we are supportive of the order. From my reading of the Explanatory Notes and the other documentation, it appears that all the consultations have been carried out well by the Welsh Office and the Government. Obviously, the order brings forward measures that have come from the Welsh Assembly Government and we would not want to get in the way of their fine work.

Therefore, my only question to the Minister—and not wanting to delay the Committee—is that the merging of the devolved functions of the Environment Agency and the Forestry Commission with the Natural Resources Body for Wales will produce some interesting learning for the rest of the United Kingdom in terms of joined-up working in this area. Does the Minister know of any mechanisms that the Environment Agency, the Forestry Commission or indeed Defra will be putting in place to ensure that we can learn those lessons and see whether or not there are aspects of joint working that we could do better here as this new body proceeds in Wales? It is not always fashionable, I know, for us in England to learn from Wales—sometimes it is more likely for Ministers to be sent to New Zealand than across the Severn Bridge—but there are things that we could learn from our friends in the devolved Assembly and I would be interested in the Minister’s response.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Knight, for his positive words in support of this order. Referring specifically to the noble Lord’s question, it is very much the case that close and co-operative working will continue between the Environment Agency, the Forestry Commission and the new Natural Resources Body for Wales. It is essential that that close co-operation will continue, from the perspective of both England and Wales.

First, there will be training co-operation, which will greatly benefit the new body in Wales because it will be able to call upon training opportunities in England, where the numbers undertaking training are very much larger and therefore there is a wider range of opportunities. Close working is also very important because, of course, rivers do not follow national boundaries. The organisations concerned—the predecessor organisation in Wales and the continuing organisations in England—are used to working together and co-operatively in order to reduce costs. They work across border when there is agreement and it is essential that that kind of co-operation continue. I think that so long as there is co-operation, both in operational working and in training, there will be ample opportunities for the organisations which continue to exist in England to learn and to observe what is taking place in Wales.

Perhaps I may also briefly mention to the noble Lords that there was recently a triennial review of the Environment Agency and the Forestry Commission in England which looked at whether those bodies should continue in their current form, should be reformed or should be merged. That triennial review concluded that the bodies should continue but that there should be reforms. I think it is important that the lessons from that review be taken. By the time of the next triennial review, which will be in 2016, there will of course be ample opportunity to have learnt from the experience in Wales. With those comments, I commend the order to the House.

Motion agreed.

Defamation Act 2013: Northern Ireland

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Thursday 27th June 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, on securing this debate and I thank all noble Lords who have spoken for their positive remarks on the merits of the Defamation Act, which was recently passed by Parliament. I can confirm that the Government are taking forward the necessary procedural steps to enable the Act to be brought into force in England and Wales by the end of the year.

As the Committee is aware, defamation, in common with other civil law issues, is a devolved area, so the law in Northern Ireland is a matter for the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly. That theme has run throughout this debate, although I have detected a strong requirement from the noble Lords who have participated that the UK Government should step in at this point. I recognise the concerns expressed about the possibility that the law in Northern Ireland may become out of step with that in England and Wales. I do not wish to speculate about the extent to which those concerns may come to be justified, but it is inevitable, as part of having devolved responsibilities, that differences in the law may arise between the different parts of the United Kingdom.

My noble friend Lord Lester expressed his frustration at the lack of a federal system and at the shortcomings of our constitutional settlement. I might share some of his frustration from time to time, but it is very important in this debate that we recognise where we are now in our constitutional settlement. Under the Sewel convention, the UK Parliament remains sovereign but will not normally pass primary legislation relating to areas in which a devolved legislature has legislative competence, except with the agreement of the devolved legislature in the form of a legislative consent Motion. I will give way.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

I am grateful to the Minister. Will she accept the fundamental point made throughout this debate that Northern Ireland law, like all our law, must comply with the European human rights convention, which is embedded in the devolution statutes and the Human Rights Act?

[Baroness Randerson]

I accept that of course, and I will return to that issue later. The memorandum of understanding between the UK Government and the devolved Administrations recognises that the UK Government retain authority to legislate on any issue, whether devolved or not. However, in this instance we do not consider that it would have been right for us to have sought to impose the Defamation Act on Northern Ireland without any concession to the sentiments of the Northern Ireland Executive on the constitutional propriety of such a move, or to its views on the substance of the proposed legislation.

In that context, I can confirm that, in accordance with the Sewel convention, prior to the introduction of the Defamation Bill officials at the Ministry of Justice contacted their counterparts in the Northern Ireland Executive. They asked whether the Executive wished to seek the approval of the Northern Ireland Assembly for an LCM in relation to any aspects of the Bill. In the event, an LCM was not requested, and I am not in a position to comment or speculate as to why that was.

Concerns were raised by the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Bew, at a very late stage in the passage of the Bill—namely, during the Lords’ consideration of Commons reasons. In the light of that, following completion of the Bill’s passage, my noble friend Lord McNally wrote to the Minister for Finance and Personnel in the Northern Ireland Executive to commend the Act to him, and to set out the benefits which we believe it has—and which have been expressed around this Chamber today—so that these can be taken into account by the Executive in considering the way forward in Northern Ireland. As the noble Lord, Lord Lester, indicated, the Minister for Finance and Personnel has just replied to the letter from my noble friend Lord McNally indicating that he currently has no plans to review the law. However, as has also been mentioned, the relevant departmental committee in the Assembly is currently taking evidence on the issue and a Private Member’s Bill on the subject may well be introduced.

It is important to point out that, although the debate in the Assembly has taken some time to ignite, it is alive at this moment. I have here a research paper produced for the Northern Ireland Assembly on the Defamation Act 2013, so efforts are now being made to inform the debate in the Assembly. I hope that these developments will ensure that the issue is fully debated and considered in Northern Ireland and throughout civil society in Northern Ireland.

In that context, it continues to be our view that the action that we have taken represents the limit of what it is proper for the Government to do. I join noble Lords in hoping that the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly give very careful consideration to the question of whether legislation along the lines of the Act is appropriate in Northern Ireland. However, we retain the view that the matter is entirely one for them.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne, said that this has been an extremely good debate and indeed it has. However, it is important that we draw it to the attention of those in the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive to contribute to the public debate that several noble Lords have referred to this afternoon.

I will reply briefly to some specific points. My noble friend Lord Lexden referred to the “antiquated” libel laws and pointed out what he saw as the anomaly that the responsibility for this issue in Northern Ireland is with the Minister for Finance and Personnel. Noble Lords are very well aware of this, but it is important to point out for the record that the arrangements in the Northern Ireland Executive are complex and balanced. It is therefore possible that which department it lies with is of less significance than those balanced and complex relationships. The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, also pointed out that the Executive have not taken this decision; this issue has not come to the Executive. He also pointed out the potential importance of Mike Nesbitt’s Private Member’s Bill on defamation. I am confident that this debate will run in Northern Ireland.

I have already referred to the comments from my noble friend Lord Lester, who intervened to refer to the importance of the human rights implications. It is obviously key that UK Ministers have regard to our international obligations on human rights at all times. However, it is always a matter of balancing one set of human rights against another. Those human rights also bind and oblige the Northern Ireland Executive in the way that they make their decisions. I refer, particularly, to the reference by the noble Lord, Lord Lester, to the ECHR memorandum that was prepared by the MoJ at the request of the Joint Committee on Human Rights to assist its consideration of the Defamation Bill. That memorandum focused on issues relating to the compatibility of the provisions contained in the Bill, not on the compatibility of the existing law.

I move rapidly on to the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, who speculated on why Northern Ireland politicians were not keen to have free comment. The key point that I want to draw out from what he said is the possibility of libel tourism. We do not consider that likely. However, we acknowledge that, once the Act is brought into force in England and Wales, there might be attempts to exploit the differences in law between the two jurisdictions. I am sure that the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly will take that into consideration as they look at this issue. The noble Lord also pointed out that newspapers cross borders and spoke of the complexities of the situation for the newspaper industry. That was also referred to by my noble friend Lord Black.

The noble Viscount talked about the liberalising and modernising Act and making our law fit for the digital age. He talked about the importance of global media and said that we cannot declare UDI on that. His core point, which will perhaps be of particular interest to those in Northern Ireland reading or possibly even listening to this debate, was on the 6,000 people who work in the media—the publishing and broadcasting industries—and the implications for them and, indeed, for the blogging citizen journalists to whom he referred. I very much hope that the prediction that UK newspapers might withdraw from Northern Ireland will prove to be unfounded, but I understand the logic of what he said.

The noble Lord, Lord Bew, referred to the human rights at the heart of the Belfast agreement. He made a very important point—a new one, not emphasised by other noble Lords—about the impact on academics and the fact that leading academics might not be encouraged to go to Northern Ireland universities if they felt that they were not given the freedom that they get elsewhere.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Browne, asked whether I accepted the dilemma at the core of the question whether the UK Government should intervene. I say to noble Lords and, in particular, to the noble Lord, Lord Browne, that I have observed the frequency with which UK Ministers are asked to intervene in Northern Ireland for one side or another. I acknowledge the cause of concern on this issue. However, I feel as I do every time people say that UK Ministers should intervene. I acknowledge the frustration but, as the noble Lord said, this is a period of transition. It is important that we support and encourage the Northern Ireland Executive and Northern Ireland democracy. We must resist the temptation to take over whenever we have a sense of frustration.

Committee adjourned at 5.58 pm.

Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Code of Practice) Order 2013

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Baroness Randerson]

That the order laid before the House on 14 May be approved.

Relevant document: 1st Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)]

My Lords, this order brings into force the code of practice for the exercise of powers in the Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007. The 2007 Act provides a range of powers to the Police Service of Northern Ireland, including stop and question, stop and search for munitions and wireless apparatus, and entry of premises. It also gives the police the power to seize items found during searches of people, premises and vehicles. While a number of the powers in the 2007 Act are primarily for use by the PSNI, the Armed Forces also have powers under the Act which they can use in support of the police.

Amendments to the 2007 Act made by the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 introduced an authorisation procedure for the exercise by the police of stop-and-search powers in relation to munitions and wireless transmitters. The purpose of this code is to set out how the powers at Sections 21, 23 and 24 and of Schedules 3 and 26 to the 2007 Act should be exercised by the Police Service of Northern Ireland. It also sets out the fundamental principles which underpin the use of the powers. The purpose of Annexe C of the code is to set out the general principles for the use of the powers at Sections 21 to 28 and Section 30 of the 2007 Act by the Armed Forces in the exceptional circumstances in which they may be exercised.

The code of practice has been developed to provide guidance on the use of these powers, particularly to ensure that they are used with regard to proportionality and necessity principles. Effective controls on police powers are essential if we are properly to protect civil liberties. Noble Lords will wish to note that there was no requirement to develop a code under the 2007 Act. The Act simply allowed the Secretary of State to make one and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State decided to do so following the changes to the powers made by the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 to ensure that they were used proportionately, recognising that they are extremely valuable to the PSNI but that we must ensure that they are used properly. We believe that the amended powers and accompanying code of practice strike the right balance between enabling the police to protect the public while ensuring that there are robust safeguards to ensure that the powers are not abused or used excessively.

I recognise that some of these powers, such as the power to stop and search without reasonable suspicion, can be controversial. It is essential that the powers under the 2007 Act must be used only when it is proportionate and necessary to do so and this code of practice will assist police officers in ensuring that these powers are used appropriately.

This code applies to police powers in the 2007 Act, which are specific to Northern Ireland. It does not cover any other police powers in UK-wide legislation or other legislation applicable to Northern Ireland only. It does not affect the operation of other codes of practice, including the Police and Criminal Evidence (Northern Ireland) Order 1989 codes and the Code of Practice (Northern Ireland) for the authorisation and exercise of stop-and-search powers relating to Sections 43, 43A and 47A of, and Schedule 6B to, the Terrorism Act 2000.

In December 2012 my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland launched a 12-week public consultation seeking views on the code of practice. The consultation closed on 6 March and a total of four formal responses were received. All four broadly welcomed the introduction of the code of practice as drafted. The comments were carefully considered and amendments to the code were made. The draft code was close to being finalised when the Court of Appeal issued its judgment in a judicial review—the case of Canning, Fox and McNulty—that challenged the Police Service of Northern Ireland’s use of stop-and-question and stop-and-search powers in the 2007 Act.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for the clear exposition of the powers outlined in the code of practice. There is a very wide range of powers affecting the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the Armed Forces and it is right and proper that there should be a well thought out code of practice governing the exercise and use of those powers. We all know the situation in Northern Ireland, where the authorities, the police and the Armed Forces have to be seen to be absolutely foursquare in their application of those powers. This code of practice builds in safeguards for the use of the powers for all in the community.

Security in Northern Ireland is of the utmost importance to all noble Lords in this House and we are united in our commitment to ensuring that people in Northern Ireland are safe and secure. The men and women officers of the Police Service of Northern Ireland do their jobs with bravery and dedication. The measures in the Act play a hugely important role in combating terrorism and protecting communities in Northern Ireland and it is very important that they are overseen by rigorous, independent scrutiny. That is encompassed in the code of practice, which is vital to maintaining public confidence in Northern Ireland in the exercise of these powers. We on this side of the House are happy to lend our support, in the best traditions of bipartisanship, and understand the reasons for the urgent nature of the measure. I would like to place on record that Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition give their full support to this order.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank both noble Lords who have participated in this brief debate for their support and I will do my best to respond to the points raised. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bew, for his broad support. He referred to paragraph 8.4 of the code and read an extract from it. I hope noble Lords will bear with me if I read some further extracts in response to illustrate my point.

The noble Lord referred to the balancing of the two rights. If you read the code as a whole you will see that it acknowledges the supreme importance of the right for one’s life to be protected and the obligation to protect life. There was a long consultation on this code and changes were made to it as a result, so it has been fairly thoroughly looked at. If you look further in the code, paragraph 8.6 says:

“Officers should exercise consideration when entering and searching premises. If entry is forced, officers should endeavour to cause as little damage as possible … officers must ensure the building is left secure”.

Paragraph 8.8 makes the point that:

“Where practicable, officers should seek the co-operation of any person in the dwelling”.

Paragraph 8.9 says:

“Officers should exercise their powers courteously and with respect for persons and property”.

So it goes on.

When the code deals with the need to enter premises—which may be a building but could be a field or vehicle—it acknowledges that you have to recognise that people, as well as having the right to have their life protected, also have a right to a private life. It goes on to explain that one right has to be exercised with a view to the other. I believe the code of practice enshrines the right balance.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for his support. He referred to the importance of the code building on safeguards. He paid a very important tribute to the PSNI. The police service in Northern Ireland is a devolved issue, but the code was developed in very close collaboration with it, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland keeps very close links with the PSNI. Its involvement in the drafting of this code is essential to its smooth operation in the months and years to come. Finally, the noble Lord referred to the importance of rigorous scrutiny and put his finger on the key point. A process of rigorous scrutiny provides the transparency that ensures the integrity of the process. I hope the noble Lords will feel able to support the order.

Motion agreed.