Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
Baroness Randerson Excerpts(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and my noble friends Lord Lexden and Lord Trimble for tabling this amendment. It has given us the opportunity to discuss and debate an important issue. This has done the process of government in Northern Ireland a service. There has been considerable support across the House for the principles behind this amendment, although some doubt in some quarters as to whether the amendment would work in the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Empey, believes that it would.
We all recognise that an effective, responsible Opposition perform a valuable service in a democracy in keeping a Government on their toes and ensuring they deliver effectively on the basis of sound policy. That has been common to the speeches made this afternoon. Opposition helps to expose abuses. It gives people a clear choice between alternative approaches to issues of public concern. It is likely to enhance challenge to government and to spur on innovation. That is something that the present system in Northern Ireland, notwithstanding much scrutiny work by the Assembly, arguably lacks.
The system of government under the Belfast agreement in Northern Ireland is unusual, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has said, complex, in that it involves a mandatory coalition in which all parties meeting certain size criteria are entitled to take part. Oppositions therefore do not come into being as they do here. Parties, as noble Lords have pointed out, are entitled to decline their right to fill their allocated posts. They are entitled to take up an opposition stance. However, as noble Lords have pointed out, no party has so far sought to do so. The noble Lord’s amendment seeks to deal with the issue of why there would be that insecurity in seeking opposition status.
The Government consulted on the question of an Opposition in 2012, but concluded that there was not sufficiently broad support among the parties to justify proceeding with legislation that would change the legislative structure deriving from the Belfast agreement in any way. At that point, the Government also made clear that they would in no circumstances envisage departing from the basic principles of power-sharing and inclusivity.
The noble Lord, Lord Browne, asked for clarification on the issue of powers. At the time that they consulted, the Government raised the possibility that the Assembly itself could make some greater provision for an Opposition through changes to its procedures, as laid out in Standing Orders. This point has been well canvassed here this afternoon. It would be open to the Assembly to make provision in that way for, as has been suggested, extra speaking rights, entitlement to supply days, and arrangements for the chairing of the Public Accounts Committee, with which the amendment deals—the “missing link”, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, called it. Those are the attractions of opposition. There are attractions to being in government. If you want parties to choose opposition status, they have to have a guarantee for that to be an attractive position to seek.
The issue has been considered by the Assembly’s own Assembly and Executive Review Committee, but no consensus has yet emerged. Many will find this failure to provide more effectively for opposition a disappointment.
The noble Lord, Lord Browne, asked whether the Assembly had the powers to accord the rights set out in the amendment through its Standing Orders. As I understand it, the point of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, is to prevent those rights being removed at a point in the future. The Assembly could do this itself but, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has pointed out, it could take away that right in the future. I believe it is that uncertainty that the amendment seeks to address. It is important that a formal Opposition should have sufficient status if they are to be effective in holding the Executive to account. The Government will reflect on what has been said in the debate and we will certainly return to this on Report.
My noble friend Lord Lexden reflected on the breadth of support for the principle of opposition. That is clearly the case here today but there are of course, at the same time, differences among us as to how you might seek to enshrine that position of formal opposition status within the Standing Orders of the Assembly. My noble friend Lord Lexden also pointed to this as an important step in what one would call the normalisation of Northern Ireland politics. That is the thread that runs behind the Bill.
My noble friend Lord Alderdice looked back to the history of the situation and referred to what was, at one point, the permanence of the Ulster Unionist Party’s position in government for a long period of time, and the dramatic change that then occurred. He discussed the reasons why that happened and the problems within the current arrangements for those parties that do not want to be designated as either unionist or nationalist. Those parties also have to be taken into account in the arrangements for any future Opposition. My noble friend Lord Alderdice pointed to some technical problems with the amendment, which the Government will have to take away and consider.
As the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, said, this is really a decision that must be taken within the Assembly. The UK Government can point in a direction, facilitate and encourage, but the Government would certainly not, in any way, seek to impose anything from outside. The principles of power-sharing and the Belfast agreement are absolutely fundamental in this, and any arrangements must be made with cross-community support and with a broad agreement across society. The Assembly has also discussed this. Mr John McCallister MLA raised the issue and is contemplating a Private Member’s Bill in the Assembly on the issue of opposition in the coming months. I regret to say that, so far, there is no indication of any greater consensus forthcoming on that than there was when the Government consulted on the issue of an Official Opposition in 2012.
I return to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, which would not overcome that lack of consensus. In the view of the Government, there would need to be an approach from the Assembly to the Secretary of State before any of the rights that he envisages could be accorded. However, as he explained, the intention behind his amendment is that the Assembly could not then unilaterally withdraw these rights. Once accorded by the Secretary of State, they would presumably be permanent. The noble Lord has made a very good point. He has called this “one small step” and “an additional right”.
The debate has given us all a good deal to think about. The Government will certainly reflect on what has been said on all sides this afternoon, and no doubt the House will return to the issue on Report. I hope that at that stage there might be a clearer sense of how we should proceed on this issue, essentially of what steps might be taken, consistent with the Belfast agreement and the current legislation, to facilitate the operation of opposition parties.
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, I apologise for interrupting. This is an important point. Will the Minister bear in mind the wise and experienced opinion of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, that opinions that can be seen as instructions from outside are often counterproductive?
Baroness Randerson
The noble Lord is absolutely correct. He is emphasising the point that I made that the Government are well aware that there should be no direction from outside. It is absolutely fundamental that the Assembly itself reaches this agreement. The Government see their role as that of facilitating the operation of the opposition parties within the Assembly when the Assembly reaches that decision for itself.
There will clearly be views on this from well beyond this Chamber today, including from Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and I emphasise that the Government are interested in hearing those views. I hope that, in view of the indications that I have given, the noble Lord will agree at this point to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Empey
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her decision that the Government will reflect on this. It is interesting that everyone around the Chamber agrees the basic principles. Perhaps we should invite Mr Richard Haass to come in and help us between now and Report. Failing that, if the Minister and other parties—
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, the amendment allows us the opportunity to reflect on the continued importance of Westminster and the Northern Ireland Office in Northern Ireland. There is a vital role for Governments and the Secretary of State in bringing peace, progress and prosperity to Northern Ireland. These are areas where, at times, it is appropriate for the Government to lead and others to support, at all times working in partnership with the Assembly, the Executive and the Government of the Republic of Ireland. Much progress has been made since the Good Friday agreement, but there remains a need for a comprehensive and inclusive process to deal with the past—the name Haass comes to mind—a process that has the victims and survivors of violence at the centre. As yet, there is no consensus within Northern Ireland as to the structures which would enable this. Nevertheless, it should be a priority of the Northern Ireland Office to facilitate and advance dialogue in this area. Dealing with the legacy of what has become known as the Troubles is expressly a responsibility of the Northern Ireland Office. The publication of the Executive’s cohesion, sharing and integration strategy is good news, and the Secretary of State should co-operate with the Executive and provide support for initiatives designed to build, and to continue to build, a shared future in Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland’s future, like that of other parts of the United Kingdom, can be built only on a strong economy and a compassionate welfare system. These are additional areas in which the Government must work with the Assembly. The Government should also acknowledge the effects that their policies on the economy and welfare are having in Northern Ireland. What could be regarded as inattentiveness has been evidenced in the Government’s inequitable welfare reforms. Thirty-two thousand households in Northern Ireland will be affected by the bedroom tax. Northern Ireland is being disproportionately affected, since almost 90% of social housing stock is family homes of three bedrooms or more—another exposure of the falsehood that people can somehow easily downsize their homes.
This amendment restates the important role that Westminster and the Government have to play within Northern Ireland. The use of these powers would help. The Northern Ireland Act established an important role for the Secretary of State; this Bill will reaffirm this. Both restate the need for active engagement by the Secretary of State with issues that affect Northern Ireland. The amendment is entirely probing to enable some discussion on the affairs of Northern Ireland.
Baroness Randerson
I thank the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for his amendment. It is always worth considering whether the arrangements in place for devolution are as effective as they might be and whether there is anything we can do to improve the way in which we work with devolved Administrations.
The noble Lord referred to the role of the Secretary of State and to the Haass talks. I reflect back to his speech on the previous amendment, in which he made it absolutely clear—and rightly so—that it was vital that we respect devolution and that the Government do not intervene where it is a matter for the devolved Assembly. I remind the noble Lord that the Government on occasions walk a narrow line between encouraging and leading in relation to the development and the firming-up of devolution in Northern Ireland. They walk a narrow line between that and interfering.
As noble Lords have already pointed out, interfering is a major mistake. The Secretary of State is very aware of this, in relation to the Haass talks in particular, because those talks were convened by the leaders of the political parties in Northern Ireland. It is a sign of the development and firming-up of politics and political institutions in Northern Ireland that these leaders felt confident enough to put hugely complex and difficult issues—the most difficult ones they face—into the discussions led by Dr Richard Haass. I am delighted to see that those discussions are still going on, with two meetings of the leaders of the political parties scheduled for this week. It is therefore absolutely essential, at this moment, that we trust them to take those issues forward and avoid the temptation to interfere. That does not mean that the Secretary of State is not watching this moment by moment and day by day or that she is not anxious for the Haass talks to succeed and for there to be progress on those difficult issues.
The noble Lord made it clear that this was a probing amendment, but it is essential that I address the details of it. Amendment 2 relates to ministerial functions. It is already the case that, if the Assembly wants to legislate to alter the functions of a UK Minister, or confer functions on a UK Minister, all it needs to do is ask for the Secretary of State’s consent. The formal consent process takes about 10 days. The amendment would, therefore, have a very limited impact because it would only remove that consent process in a small number of cases specified by the Secretary of State in advance.
The current process is not onerous and there have been no complaints from the Northern Ireland parties about the way that procedures have operated in this area to date. It is also notable that the consent process is very rarely used. Only one Assembly Bill—the marine Bill—has so far required the Secretary of State’s consent since the current Assembly was elected in 2011. Consent in relation to that Bill did not relate to ministerial functions, so it would not have been affected by the proposed amendment. Although I am grateful for the opportunity for debate that this amendment has brought, I do not believe that we should legislate for a problem that does not exist. I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Empey
My Lords, before the Minister sits down I apologise: I should have been in a moment earlier. I want to reflect on the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. Clause 6 deals with the reduction in size of the Assembly being a reserved matter. There is a general view that, at 108 Members, the Assembly is too big. Compared with the Welsh and Scottish assemblies it is proportionately far bigger, but the reason for this was a deliberate decision to try and make it as inclusive as possible. Some two years ago we thought that a solution would be brought upon us with the change in parliamentary constituencies, because reducing the number of parliamentary constituencies would automatically reduce the size of the Assembly—QED. However, one or two people around your Lordships’ House and in other places had different views, and consequently that did not come to pass. However, it would have been an important step.
I have to caution the House that the Assembly deciding on how to reduce its numbers is as important as actually reducing the numbers. Using the existing system, if you reduced the numbers and left the existing constituencies the same, it would be perfectly possible to have a major political impact. It is a bit like the American states: the winning party then determines the boundaries of the new congressional districts, and so it goes on. This is a similar type of issue, and we have to be very cautious as to how we deal with it.
There is a general sense overall that the operation of the Northern Ireland institution is far too complicated and expensive, and everyone has the general view that it should be reduced. How you do that is very important and can have a significant political outcome, so I caution your Lordships that if we agree to this, it will hand the ability to whoever happens to be in charge when this happens to draw up the numbers to suit themselves, because proportional representation under the single transferable vote is very sensitive to the number of seats in each constituency that are contested.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Alderdice, for their amendment and the spirit in which it was put forward, and I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. They rightly emphasise the key issue: the importance of the impartiality of the Civil Service. My noble friend Lord Alderdice referred to the key role of the Civil Service prior to the days of the Good Friday agreement. I was in a small way involved in the early discussions and, from my own experience, was acutely aware of the key role of the Civil Service in Northern Ireland in that regard, the importance of its expertise and, above all, the importance of its impartiality and the trust with which it could therefore be regarded.
It is worth emphasising that Clause 10 does not change the current procedure for the appointment of Civil Service Commissioners for Northern Ireland. Appointments are currently an excepted matter; the Bill proposes to make them a reserved matter, in common with the functions and procedures of those commissioners. Commissioners will continue to be appointed by the Crown: that is, on the advice of the Secretary of State. The Civil Service Commissioners (Northern Ireland) Order 1999, which currently governs the functions of the commissioners, will continue to apply. However, that leaves open the possibility of the future devolution of responsibility for appointment of the commissioners and that of their functions and procedures. Under Section 4 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, that could only happen with the agreement of Parliament and that of the Northern Ireland Assembly voting with cross-community support. However, before any proposal of that sort is put forward we would certainly intend to consult publicly.
We believe that the devolution of responsibility for the commissioners at some point may well be appropriate. Matters have moved a long way since the Good Friday agreement and the initial devolution of responsibility in 1999. For example, we had big changes in 2010, focusing on policing and justice. The commissioners’ independence and the maintenance of an impartial public service are of paramount importance. I thank the noble Lords for their suggested safeguards in this regard. It is clear across the Chamber today that there is agreement on the importance of the impartiality of the Civil Service and agreement that there should be additional safeguards to those currently provided for in legislation. The Government are certainly open to the possibility of new statutory safeguards at the point of devolution and welcome the suggestions made. We hope to hear more when the time comes for the consultation. We have heard what your Lordships have said here but we believe that it is premature to specify preconditions to devolution in the Bill today. The necessary protections should be carefully debated before devolution takes place, as it would be inappropriate to make such significant changes without a thorough consultation.
Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)
I apologise to the House for asking a question as a disinterested observer, although not an uninterested observer. Given that this is Committee stage and that there seems to be general agreement around the Committee on the principle of the amendment—unless I have missed something—why does the Minister not find it possible to say that consideration will be given to this matter before the end of proceedings on the Bill?
Baroness Randerson
My response to the noble Lord is that, as I was in the process of saying, we do not disagree with the concept of the safeguards that have been suggested and laid out in the amendment. However, we believe that before we devolve the Civil Service Commissioners’ role, we need to have public consultation so that we have a fuller understanding of what the public expect. It is also worth pointing out that safeguards are already in place in relation to the Civil Service Commissioners in England. Therefore, it is right and appropriate to compare the safeguards proposed in this amendment with those in place for the Civil Service Commissioners in England. In the case of England, they go to several pages; they are very much more detailed. The proposals in the amendment are an indication of the sort of lines one would wish to put in place, but the Government believe that they are nowhere near detailed enough for the final situation. They would need a great deal more fleshing out and should rightly be fleshed out following public consultation.
Lord Hurd of Westwell (Con)
I have been following this debate with some care and would like to join, from my own experience as Secretary of State, in welcoming the spirit with which the Northern Ireland Civil Service conducted its affairs at a time when the pressures on civil servants as individuals must have been really quite substantial, coming from several parts of the community. They resisted those pressures, as far as I could tell, with persistence because they believed in the principles which have been endorsed in every speech made here, including that of my noble friend. She is straining at a gnat. We are all familiar, from being in government, with occasions when Ministers are asked to take this line. She is saying, “Yes, the principle is fine,” and so on, “but we need more thought; we need more time, we need more consultation”. We have had quite a substantial consultation in this House this afternoon. The principle is not at stake and is not being questioned. Is this not an opportunity to endorse that principle, which is hugely important for the future of the Province? It seems that the House should take the opportunity offered to it this afternoon to underline its strong endorsement of the principle, rather than be deflected by the arguments for delay.
Baroness Randerson
I thank my noble friend for that point. However, I do not see this as an argument for delay. This measure must go through the appropriate legal processes and there should be proper public consultation. With all due respect to your Lordships, there is another side to public consultation which involves, for example, asking the opinions of the elected representatives in Northern Ireland.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
If my understanding of the noble Baroness’s lengthy speech is correct, she is not arguing that there should be delay as regards the principle but is saying that it is absolutely accepted by the Government, and is talking now only about process. Is that correct?
Baroness Randerson
Absolutely. The noble Baroness is entirely correct. I had hoped I had made it clear in my opening remarks on this issue that the Government fully support the principle and intend to ensure that safeguards are put in place. However, they believe that there should be public consultation to ensure that those safeguards are as full and detailed as is necessary. The Government also believe that although the intention of the noble Lord’s amendment is entirely satisfactory in many respects, it is deficient in technical terms because the safeguards it specifies are nowhere near detailed enough compared with those for the Civil Service in England.
Lord Butler of Brockwell
The Bill contains the powers to devolve this function of the Civil Service Commissioners. If we are going to put that in the Bill, surely the sensible time to legislate for the safeguards is at the same time as making that provision. If not, why have this provision in the Bill? If the provision is to go ahead, the Government ought to undertake such consultation as they think necessary but introduce a suitable amendment on Report.
Baroness Randerson
The Government are listening very carefully to what is said this afternoon, which will inform the content of our consultation paper when it is produced, and we will take close account of what is said more generally by parties and public figures in Northern Ireland. The body that it is proposed to devolve—the Civil Service Commissioners—has, as the noble Lord pointed out, raised our awareness of this issue and is very much involved with the whole process. I should point out that there will be a vote here and in Stormont before the Civil Service Commissioners are devolved. Therefore, noble Lords will be able to discuss once again the details of the safeguards to be put in place as regards the impartiality of the Civil Service. I hope that noble Lords who have spoken this afternoon will contribute fully to the consultation that will take place in due course. However, for the present, I hope that the noble Lord will not press the amendment. I cannot agree to it for the reasons I have outlined—namely, it is technically deficient and does not provide the detail that is required properly to protect the impartiality of the Civil Service in Northern Ireland.
Baroness Randerson
I thank my noble friend for his intervention. I am fully aware of the noble Lord’s tremendous expertise and am very happy to take into account the point he made. I assure noble Lords that the Government will be taking careful note of everything that has been said here this afternoon.
Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve (CB)
Is the Minister willing to confirm from the Dispatch Box that, should the consultation reveal that public sentiment is not going to endorse the principles of Civil Service independence, it will not be the outcome of the consultation that is carried through but rather those principles for Civil Service independence?
Baroness Randerson
In public consultation in Northern Ireland, the Government look particularly at a consensus across parties and communities. Therefore, it seems to me highly unlikely that there would be a consensus of opinion—a broad agreement across parties and communities—that there should not be an impartial Civil Service. That would be highly unlikely. In that consultation, we would be looking for the details that we would require for proper safeguarding of the position of civil servants in Northern Ireland.
Lord Butler of Brockwell
I am very sorry to ask the Minister one more question. She said that there would be a further vote before devolution took place. Can she say that, if there is agreement that these principles should be applied, the effect of that vote would be to give them statutory force?
Baroness Randerson
It is the Government’s intention that we would be moving to devolution with safeguards that would have the kind of statutory enforcement that exists for England. I hope that satisfies the noble Lord.
Lord Empey
My Lords, when we started out on this amendment, I thought it was a very simple matter that would not be at all controversial. It just shows you that you never can tell around these parts. First, nobody in Northern Ireland has asked for this. The Assembly certainly has not made an approach. To some extent, the issue has come as a bit of a surprise. As I said—I think there is widespread acceptance round the House—the Northern Ireland Civil Service did a good and impartial job. There are a number of former Ministers in their places to confirm that, including the noble Baroness on the Opposition Front Bench, who ran a number of departments and has many years of experience. I accept that there may well be technical deficiencies in the amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, and I have tabled. We are very happy for the amendment to be taken away and those technical deficiencies resolved. However, the Minister referred on a number of occasions to consultation. It is not clear to me what the consultation is on—whether it is the principle of devolution or not. To have a consultation on the merit principle would take us back to ground zero. If we do not or cannot accept that, we will pretty well have thrown in the towel.
I suggest that the Minister should look at this before Report because it is an issue to which we may well have to return. Everybody in the Chamber agrees, so it ought to be possible to resolve it. In that spirit, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions on such an important topic. My noble friend Lord Alderdice emphasised the fundamental importance of human rights to the successful establishment of devolved government in Northern Ireland. I shall deal first with the bread-and-butter issues for the clause to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 11 moves certain functions relating to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission from the excepted to the reserved category. Human rights issues have long been politically sensitive in Northern Ireland and at the time of the 1998 Act it was considered that functions relating to the new commission should remain in the Secretary of State’s hands. In the context of stable devolved institutions and of their development in the future, it may become desirable in due course to devolve responsibilities relating to the NIHRC if the Northern Ireland political parties so wish and if the Secretary of State considers that the Northern Ireland institutions are better placed than the Government to carry out the functions concerned. Clause 11 will mean that the appointment, functions, procedures and funding of the NIHRC will be reserved.
The Government made a commitment, in their response to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee’s pre-legislative scrutiny report on the draft version of this Bill, to consult formally on any future devolution of responsibilities relating to the NIHRC and the other arm’s-length bodies discussed prior to any such devolution taking place. I reiterate that commitment today. We will also ensure that the NIHRC retains its responsibility for the scrutiny of non-devolved matters relating to Northern Ireland such as national security and terrorism in the event of any future devolution of responsibilities for the institution.
We understand the concerns that have been expressed both in this Committee and elsewhere that in the course of devolution the independence and freedom of action of the NIHRC should not be compromised. Indeed, not only do we understand those concerns, we fully share them. The independence of the commission is essential to its effectiveness. Its international standing is high and reflects that independence. We are well aware of the importance to the commission itself of the Belgrade and Paris principles, and it is essential that those are abided by. I also ask noble Lords to consider the benefits of devolution. I understand the concerns, but I ask them to consider the benefits. We believe that if it can be accomplished without compromise to the independence and important international standing of the commission, it would be a good thing. It would show that the institutions have matured. After all, in 2010, we accepted that they should take responsibility for sensitive matters such as policing and justice. It is not outrageous, therefore, to suggest that they should be capable of accommodating the independent oversight of institutions, as indeed they already do in various areas such as that of the police ombudsman, with due respect for propriety. So we do not believe that it is unthinkable that, at some point soon, the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland should take on responsibility for the NIHRC, but we are not asking for decisions at this point. All that the Bill does is to make it possible for such decisions to be reached and for effect to be given to them at a later date. If that happens, it will be after full consultation, because these issues need debate in Northern Ireland, of which we have had very little so far. Devolution would require votes in the Assembly by cross-community support and in both Houses here, so we shall certainly come back to these issues before any act of devolution.
I shall respond to some of the points made by noble Lords. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, referred to the current lack of a chair of the commission. In fact the position will be advertised in the immediate future, so this temporary situation will be rectified in the near future. The noble Lord, Lord Bew, referred to the issue of timing. We shall come back to this, because it is the topic of an amendment later in these proceedings.
My noble friend Lord Alderdice asked who had initiated this, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, made a similar point. The Government have had discussions with various Northern Ireland political parties about possible devolution of the commission. Officials have also discussed the matter with the chair and the chief executive of the commission, and I discussed it with them a couple of weeks ago. I emphasise that the Government believe that it is important above all that there is broad support across the community for devolution before it takes it place.
Lord Alderdice
My noble friend may be able to help me and the House with one question of information that I asked, on whether what we are being asked to do is devolution only to the Executive, or whether it would open the possibility of devolution to the Executive or to the Assembly.
Baroness Randerson
I apologise to my noble friend for omitting that. We are not looking at a precise model of devolution at this moment, because that, of course, is to be effected after consultation. However, we are well aware that devolution in Scotland has been to the Parliament and that that is a very successful model of devolution. It is sensible to follow successful models where they exist rather than to apply a different model. However, the details will be subject to further consultation and will become obvious after there has been full consultation.
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, Clause 12, with Clauses 10 and 11, will have the effect of converting some of the functions relating to certain arm’s-length bodies from excepted to reserved matters. This is a small change but it is right that we support it. It grants more power to the Assembly, allowing it to legislate on these matters, but only with the consent of the Secretary of State. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, is absolutely correct to refer to past difficulties. I would not accuse him of being pessimistic about the progress made over the past 16 years. However, there is a failsafe with the involvement of the Secretary of State.
The district electoral areas for council elections in Northern Ireland are in need of reform and rationalisation. It is only right that the Assembly plays some role in such rationalisation. The changes effected by this clause are a recognition and endorsement of the growing maturity of Northern Ireland’s political structures. It reflects faith in the ability of the Stormont Assembly to scrutinise changes properly and to reach cross-community consensus. Concerns have been raised over whether it is possible for the Assembly to oversee such important and sensitive changes. Again, this clause reflects the proper functioning of devolution within the framework of Northern Ireland. The clause recognises the ability of the Assembly to make decisions in the cross-community interest and to hold the Executive to account, while clearly outlining the responsibilities of the Secretary of State and Westminster in aiding and scrutinising change in Northern Ireland.
Any legislation by the Assembly regarding these matters will require the consent of the Secretary of State. Governments in Westminster will therefore be beholden to study extensively whether such changes truly have cross-community support within Northern Ireland. That is a big responsibility. This guarantees that changes to district electoral areas in Northern Ireland cannot be designed for the benefit of two or a handful of political parties, but in full accord with the guiding principle of the 1998 agreement—that of inclusivity. This is not Westminster abdicating responsibility in this area. Instead, it imposes a major responsibility on Westminster Governments to impartially scrutinise legislation from the Assembly.
Clause 12 should stand part of the Bill as the changes it makes are part of the process of normalising politics within Northern Ireland and accord a suitable and appropriate role to Westminster in this. The clause allows the Northern Ireland Assembly to rationalise local government electoral areas, but appropriately requires the Secretary of State to give assent to any of the Assembly’s legislation. This empowers the Assembly and endorses its ability to make inclusive decisions and scrutinise them. It also retains a vital role for the Secretary of State in the scrutiny process and allows her to make decisions when the Assembly cannot reach cross-community consensus. This short clause strikes an important balance between Westminster and Stormont in this sensitive area of boundaries and should stand part of the Bill. It is another step in a long journey.
Baroness Randerson
I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. I welcome the support of the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. I must address the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and my noble friend Lord Alderdice, who have both expressed doubts about this proposal.
Clause 12 moves matters relating to district electoral areas to the reserved category. Noble Lords will be aware that in Northern Ireland local government boundaries are determined by the Northern Ireland Assembly following a report by the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner for Northern Ireland. Local government electoral areas are then determined by Westminster following a report by the District Electoral Areas Commissioner. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, clearly explained that the responsibilities are split at the current time.
It has been the clearly expressed view of successive District Electoral Areas Commissioners that this method of establishing district electoral areas could be improved. Separating out the two processes as I have described leads to increased costs, extends the timetable for boundaries processes by about a year, creates barriers to public understanding and participation, and reduces accountability in the process.
In concluding his December 2013 report, the most recent District Electoral Areas Commissioner, Mr Richard Mackenzie, noted that he had received a number of representations which were outside his remit. This indicated a lack of understanding about the difference between the local government boundaries and district electoral areas processes. He recommended that the processes of setting ward boundaries and electoral areas should be carried out simultaneously and under one authority. This proposal is for a process of potential rationalisation of a cumbersome system. The previous commissioner, Dr Maurice Hayes, also recommended that the reviews be combined. He believed this would lead to higher public participation and a reduced timetable for boundaries decisions.
Moving these matters to the devolved category would allow the Northern Ireland Assembly to rationalise the way in which local government electoral areas are set, subject to the consent of the Secretary of State. For example, the Northern Ireland Executive might create a single local government boundaries commission responsible for both local government and electoral area boundaries, such as exists in Scotland, Wales and England. However, electoral areas would continue to be set via legislation at Westminster in the event that the Assembly did not reach agreement on a suitable alternative model.
I am grateful to noble Lords for expressing their concerns about this. If the Government decide that it would not appropriate to devolve these matters, it may yet be appropriate for the Assembly to legislate on this issue with consent. I therefore resist the proposal by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that Clause 12 should not stand part of the Bill.
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, once again the Labour Front Bench will come to the rescue of a Minister who is under siege from her own side of the House. I do not usually see myself as a knight in shining armour coming to the rescue of a Conservative Government, but there is always hope for sinners repenting.
I will be repeating a familiar refrain. The Civic Forum is a matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly and does not require legislation in this House. The 1990 Act gave responsibility for the creation of the forum to the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, and gave them the responsibility for scrutinising the body as well. Provisional arrangements for the Civic Forum were created and approved in this manner. These arrangements also established that there would be a review of the forum after one year of its operation. This was deferred until 2002, but unfortunately the suspension meant that that was not completed.
Since 2007 the Civic Forum has once again been under review, and surely a six-year to seven-year review tells a story of its own. The review was initiated by the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. This decision and the review have rightly been approved, scrutinised and debated by the Assembly. The transitional Assembly’s Committee on the Preparation for Government concluded that a review of the mechanism for civic society to promote its views was necessary. Here, sad to say, the opinions expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, about the role in society of quite a large Assembly raise necessary doubts. It serves some nebulous cause to have a good thing in operation, but on the other hand we have to be professional and sharp about things and not just have bodies just for the sake of them. Anyway, as I said before, this comes under the aegis of the Assembly.
The best way in which to engage with the community in the political process is surely a matter for the Assembly and Northern Ireland politicians to decide upon. There are indications that there is a nationalist/unionist split—I use the terms roughly—about the worth of the forum and whether it should be reinstituted. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said, in this era of austerity the costs of an extra, subsidiary body have resulted in some doubts about it as well. Once again, though, I say that the initiative must come from the Assembly. This is devolution in practice.
I regret that I have not been able to support the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, because he has a respectable record on Northern Ireland issues. No one doubts his concern about the Northern Ireland situation or his anxiety to contribute to that process. I respect his record on Northern Ireland and genuinely regret that we have not been able to support his amendment on this occasion.
Baroness Randerson
I thank my noble friend Lord Shutt for his amendment and all noble Lords who have contributed to a short but interesting debate. As my noble friend highlighted, the community and voluntary sector plays a vital role in Northern Ireland society, as it does in my home country of Wales and in other parts of the United Kingdom. Alongside the important services it provides to citizens, the community and voluntary sector can be particularly influential in informing debate and helping to shape our society. I believe that is what led to the Civic Forum being established under the Belfast agreement. However, as noble Lords have already said, the Civic Forum has not always commanded the support of the parties in Northern Ireland. In its short existence between 2000 and 2002, the forum met a total of 12 times and produced a number of papers on various issues. There was a wide range of useful papers. For some in Northern Ireland that was seen as beneficial and important in delivering good government but, as the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, has just pointed out, for others it was seen as poor value for money. Others also pointed to it being ineffective.
Whatever the situation, the Civic Forum fell by default when the Assembly was suspended. I believe that the disagreements on how effective it had been are what prompted the First and Deputy First Ministers to initiate a review of the Civic Forum in 2007 which would make recommendations on the way forward. As noble Lords will be aware, that review has never been published but that has not quelled the interest of the parties at Stormont on progress around the Civic Forum and, as my noble friend Lord Shutt pointed out, it was debated last year in the Assembly. What was clear from that debate is that there is no clear consensus to this day on the merits of the Civic Forum or the manner in which it should be constituted in the future.
My noble friend Lord Shutt pointed out that political parties are not always popular these days as organisations to join and that civic involvement is often the favoured choice for members of the public. That is an important point and it points to the continued, or potential, significance of a forum if it were to be re-established. As the noble Lord has pointed out, the Civic Forum is an important component of the Belfast Agreement. His proposed amendment requires that the First and Deputy First Minister launch a formal consultation on the Civic Forum. I expect they may argue that this has already been carried out through the review which they launched in 2007, although the current status of that review is unclear. I say to my noble friend that I reread the Belfast agreement at the weekend and it is quite clear that this is an issue for the executive and the parties at Stormont to agree, as the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, said. Ultimately, the onus is on the parties at Stormont to agree a way forward on the Civic Forum.
If the Civic Forum is to reappear, it would be essential for it to have a clearly delineated role. It would be especially useful to agree that beforehand. That prospect would obviously follow only from the review undertaken by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, which has never been published to this day. We are therefore speculating about a potential re-establishment which, although still under active consideration within the Assembly, is in my view some way off—if it is on the horizon at all. This is very much an issue for the parties at Stormont. I thank the noble Lord for raising the issue and hope that, in doing so, he has given the issue some renewed impetus. I hope that the parties in Belfast will take notice of our debate here and the comments of your Lordships this afternoon. In the mean time, I ask my noble friend to consider withdrawing his amendment.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, this is an issue that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has returned to in the past and I am sure he will do so again. I do not feel we can support it here today. Clearly, as I recall, the time leading up to the St Andrews agreement was tense in Northern Ireland. I seem to recall various deadlines in reaching agreements so that the Assembly could be re-established after what was then four and a half years of suspension—a situation that nobody wanted to be in at the time. The agreements made there were not just agreements made there and then. There were discussions for several weeks after, before the legislation came to your Lordships’ House. My noble friend Lord Rooker took the legislation through your Lordships’ House at that time. Legislation giving effect to the St Andrews agreement and ongoing discussions was passed by both Houses.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, whom I have known for many years—indeed I followed him into his department, DETI, in Northern Ireland—has never been a great fan of the St Andrews agreement. He has had criticisms of it for some time. However, there is no doubt that that agreement led to the re-establishment of the Assembly and the process we have now. I really feel that it is not appropriate to unpick just some parts. The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, made an important point about the ongoing review by the Assembly. However, it would be unfortunate in this legislation to unpick one part of the St Andrews agreement, even though I understand the concerns raised, and it is not something that we will support today.
Baroness Randerson
I have listened with great interest to noble Lords. I will keep my comments short because noble Lords who have taken part in the debate have spoken with the advantages of experience and expertise, which come with having been part of the events that we are discussing. They were key actors in the events. Therefore, the role for me here is to lay out the Government’s point of view on the amendment. In this, we agree with the noble Baroness that it is not appropriate to unpick one part of the agreement.
Noble Lords will be aware that the Government opposed amendments on this issue in Committee in the Commons, and that is the position they intend to maintain today. I recognise the noble Lord’s strongly held views on this matter and I can sympathise with a lot of what he and my noble friend Lord Alderdice have to say. In some ways, it may be a welcome change to revert to the pre-St Andrews method of electing the First and Deputy First Ministers of Northern Ireland, involving as it did an overt demonstration of cross-community support and—as the noble Lord pointed out—the involvement of the Assembly.
However, the St Andrews agreement, and the subsequent legislation, is the basis on which devolved government was restored in 2007. The arrangements by which the First Minister and Deputy First Minister are nominated by designations in the Assembly emerged at St Andrews. This was a change, as the noble Lord said, from the 1998 agreement. There was one change subsequently, with the effect that the largest party in the Assembly nominated the First Minister, but the basic principle comes from St Andrews and I do not think we should now move from it. It would be highly disruptive. The reality is that such changes as those proposed by the noble Lord would require a degree of cross-community support that is still lacking.
Lord Maginnis of Drumglass (Non-Afl)
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Would she accept that the Belfast agreement was voted for by the people of Northern Ireland as well as by the people in the Irish Republic? Would she also agree that St Andrews was never voted on; that it was in fact a sleight of hand—a carve-up between the two parties—that would not allow, and preached against, the Assembly having any virtue; that that is what we are left with now; and that the chances of making any progress if she continues with that recipe are virtually nil?
Baroness Randerson
I accept of course that the Belfast agreement was voted on on both sides of the border and, as the noble Lord has pointed out, the St Andrews agreement is in a different category. As the noble Baroness pointed out, it was a response to an urgent and difficult situation. It was not an agreement dealing with things as one would ideally wish them to be, but an agreement dealing with a very difficult situation. However, I take issue with the noble Lord that there has not been progress. I understand frustration at lack of progress—I think everyone who is involved with and visits Northern Ireland might feel that frustration—but there is progress. When I look back at what the Northern Irish devolved Government was like in about 2000, maybe 1999, they have moved on significantly in that time. With every year that passes, they become more secure. As the noble Lord, Lord Browne, pointed out, this is the longest period of stable government we have seen in a generation.
At the moment, it would reopen old debates, risk destabilising politics in Northern Ireland and divert attention from the important challenges that Northern Ireland faces, if we were to revert to the old method for electing the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. I should like to concentrate noble Lords’ minds for a moment on the new challenges that Northern Ireland faces, which are the importance of rebalancing the economy, reducing social division and building a properly shared future. Therefore, I ask the noble Lord if he would be willing to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Empey
My Lords, I thank the Minister but may I say several things because there is an issue of fact that needs clarity here? The current method of electing or identifying the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister does not come from the St Andrews agreement. It was not discussed at St Andrews—let us be very clear about that—but emerged after a deal between Sinn Fein and the Prime Minister of the day. I want to make it absolutely clear that it was not dealt with at St Andrews. Therefore, if we are to talk about unpicking, the unpicking was the removal of the process that was voted on by the people in 1998. However, it was never part of the St Andrews agreement, which was an agreement between two Governments, not between the parties. I want to make that absolutely clear, because if that is the case, it makes a major difference. It emerged as a deal subsequent to St Andrews.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I find myself in great sympathy with the amendment posed by the noble Lord, Lord Empey. He and I have discussed this before. I regret that my experience of trying to raise this issue with Ministers was identical to that of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. I was leading for us on Home Office issues on the then Crime and Courts Bill, and when this issue first came up I raised it with Ministers on the Bill team. The advice I was given was not to draw attention to it. That is pretty horrendous, because people knew there were concerns and issues to be addressed. I believe that early intervention and early political engagement from both Governments could have addressed those issues.
On a number of occasions, on the Floor of this House and outside, I asked Ministers about it and found myself in the curious position of discussing with Home Office Ministers what was happening and being told it was a matter for the NIO; and when I raised it with the Secretary of State at the briefing on Northern Ireland issues, I was told it was a matter for the Home Office. So the NIO was telling me it was the Home Office and the Home Office was telling me it was the NIO, and I was really worried that this just fell between two stools.
Devolution does not mean disengagement. The British Government had a responsibility when setting up the National Crime Agency—or, as I now call it, the nearly-National Crime Agency, because it is not a national crime agency—to ensure that very early on, when the proposal was first discussed, there were discussions between both Governments and between the political parties. I hold David Ford in very high regard; I regard him as a friend. He is, however, one person in one Government. In the old days, under the Labour Government, there would have been political engagement and political discussion on something as important as this. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and the noble Lord, Lord Browne, have indicated, the difficulties and the problems are not just for Northern Ireland, but also for those who are genuinely trying to fight crime across the whole of the UK, who are finding themselves hampered because of this gap in provision in Northern Ireland because the Government did not properly engage. Therefore, I support the principle of what the noble Lord, Lord Empey said, but I do not feel that I can support it as a whole because there has to be that engagement first. Merely saying “it will apply” does not resolve the issue.
Will the Minister answer some questions? Can she tell me—and I think the noble Lord, Lord Empey, also referred to this—what has taken place since the legislation received Royal Assent to ensure discussions and engagement in Northern Ireland so that we can move to a position where the National Crime Agency is a genuinely national crime agency? What has happened so far? Also, what will happen next? Can she give the House an assurance that both Secretaries of State—the Home Secretary and the Northern Ireland Secretary—will engage in Northern Ireland to ensure that we can have a National Crime Agency that fulfils the needs of Northern Ireland in the way they should be met?
Baroness Randerson
I thank the noble Lord for this amendment because it has given us the opportunity to discuss a very important issue and it has given me the opportunity to clarify the position of the National Crime Agency in Northern Ireland. Given the sensitivity of policing in Northern Ireland, and the potential gravity of the impact of this amendment, I have assumed that this is a probing amendment. It was clear at Second Reading that your Lordships consider the role of the National Crime Agency in Northern Ireland to be of great interest and significance. That has been re-emphasised here this afternoon.
To be clear, the National Crime Agency is operating in Northern Ireland, but as a consequence of the Northern Ireland Executive’s failure to agree to take forward a legislative consent Motion, the Agency’s powers and activities in Northern Ireland to tackle serious and organised crime are restricted. The NCA is providing support and expertise to partners in Northern Ireland and continues to take forward its own investigations within the scope of the limitations on its powers and responsibilities. We, however, remain keen to extend its remit to cover crime falling within devolved responsibilities, if agreement can be reached on this within the Northern Ireland Executive; the Crime and Courts Act provides the necessary order-making powers to achieve this.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I asked a specific question about what arrangements had been put in place in discussions that had taken place prior to the Bill coming forward and what is taking place now. I appreciate that the noble Baroness may not be able to give me that information now but I am happy for her to write to me.
Baroness Randerson
I thought I had done my best to answer that question but I will, of course, examine the record tomorrow and if I can provide noble Lords with further information I will be very happy to write and provide further detail.
Lord Empey
My Lords, like most amendments at this stage in a Bill, this is a probing amendment. However, as I pointed out, this is a miscellaneous provisions Bill, and therefore noble Lords will seek to insert measures in it as the opportunity is available to do that. I think that is the tradition of the House and I am merely following in that wake.
In regard to this specific amendment, I will have to look at Hansard tomorrow but the Minister said, if I heard her correctly, that we could not, or would not, overrule the Northern Ireland Executive. Let us be very clear—Parliament can overrule any devolved Administration. Devolution means that part of our functions and powers are devolved, but it also means that they can be undevolved. We have a convention to which we normally stick, and I understand that. However, if the Minister is saying that the Government will not introduce any legislation on this matter in Northern Ireland, she is effectively giving Sinn Fein a veto over a crime issue. That is a very disturbing comment. I will check the record tomorrow and, if necessary, return to the issue at a later stage. However, when the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, answered my question on the Crime and Courts Bill, the clear implication of what he was saying was that, if progress was not made, the Government would have to take the national interest into account. That was the inevitable implication of what he said to me. If that is not the case and we are saying that whatever happens we are not going down this road, that in practice is a veto for Sinn Fein, which is not a very good thing to do in the interests of national security.
I hope that the Minister is listening. I wish the discussions that are taking place well. Those holding the discussions have not perhaps been dealt the best hand, and comment could fairly be made on that. However, let us not be under any illusions—the fact that we have an underperformance in this area in Northern Ireland, which is an inevitable outcome of the agency not operating totally and without limits, must mean, ultimately, that crime, like anything else—like nature itself—will fill a vacuum. We have enough people in Northern Ireland with certain skill sets. I need hardly finish the sentence as noble Lords know what I mean, but let us not encourage them. If there is no prospect whatever of our doing anything in this regard, that is not much of an incentive to those involved in the negotiations as we are throwing away their hand.
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bew, who supported the original decision, was characteristically frank and honest in indicating that there was heavy opposition to what is being proposed here. When you get that sort of difficult situation, you must resort—maybe that is the wrong word, but you must go back—to basic principles. The basic principle is that there is devolution in Northern Ireland. It is a difficult subject, but the Assembly and the Executive will need to take full, political responsibility for it. I have heard powerful pleas, but I am taken with the honest assessment of the noble Lord, Lord Bew, that there are serious differences and points of view on this. In that event, the Assembly must make its own mistake—if, indeed, this is a mistake. We have devolution, and devolution is the principle that we have to go by.
Baroness Randerson
I thank all noble Lords for their contributions and I thank my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Bew, for the amendment. This is a very important matter. When we previously debated it, I was struck by the very high level of expertise, and by the very real concern felt by many noble Lords about the fact that the law on defamation in Northern Ireland has not been reformed. My noble friend Lord Lexden outlined the legal and economic impact of the failure to extend the defamation law to Northern Ireland. He also emphasised legal uncertainty.
Several noble Lords referred to the fact that there are also differences in defamation law in Scotland. As the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, has pointed out, this is the result of devolution. As a Minister, I can sympathise with the frustrations of noble Lords about devolution. It may be that the slowness of response in Northern Ireland is particularly frustrating on occasions. However, it is essential that we respect the devolution process, and part of that process is that you have different laws in different parts of the country. I am not suggesting that I regard it as a good thing that Northern Ireland has not updated its defamation law. I do not regard it as a good thing at all that Northern Ireland is in this position. However, it is important that we respect devolution and, under the Sewel convention, decisions on whether legislation in transferred areas should apply to Northern Ireland would normally fall to the devolved Administration. This repeats the arguments we had in our previous debate.
That does not mean we do not have a view on the matter. The Government have been active in encouraging the Executive to consider the need for change. As I indicated when we last debated this issue, there was contact at official level prior to the introduction of the then Defamation Bill to establish whether the Northern Ireland Executive wished to seek the approval of the Assembly to a legislative consent Motion. Following completion of the Bill’s passage, my noble friend Lord McNally wrote to the Minister of Finance and Personnel to commend the Act to him and to set out its benefits.
Noble Lords and many other organisations and individuals have highlighted concerns about the possible effects of there being differences in the law between Northern Ireland and England and Wales. My noble friend Lord Black pointed out that this is an area where it is particularly difficult to have different laws in different parts of the country. It is important that the Northern Ireland Executive assess the impact on their economy, and on academia in Northern Ireland, as the noble Lord, Lord Bew, said. It is also important that they take into account those key issues when deciding whether they wish to extend the legislation to Northern Ireland.
Several noble Lords have referred to Mike Nesbitt’s consultation in terms of its size and the quality of the responses. It is important to remember that 90% of those who responded to the consultation wanted the extension of the law to Northern Ireland. It is therefore important that Mike Nesbitt should be able to develop his legislation and take it forward.
Reference was made to the fact that Simon Hamilton, the Northern Ireland Finance Minister, has asked the Northern Ireland Law Commission to examine the matter and concerns were expressed about the timescale for this. It is something which of course the Government cannot influence, but it is important that we should encourage all those with an interest in this issue in Northern Ireland to pursue it as quickly as possible in order to provide certainty for academia, for the press—as my noble friend Lord Black mentioned—and for all those who are affected by the lack of an update to this legislation. It is clear that active consideration is now being given to it and, in view of the action being taken at Stormont and the devolved status of the issue, the Government cannot support the amendment. I am pleased that we have been able to debate the matter, and I commend the noble Lords, Lord Bew and Lord Lexden, for their continued efforts, but I respectfully ask that the amendment be withdrawn.
Lord Lexden
My Lords, I think that for the most part we have probed this issue most usefully, apart from the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, who did not seem to want to probe it at all. We should be careful before concluding that this sovereign Parliament would be wrong in taking action, and doing so over the head of the devolved legislature, as I think that that is a principle that we must be very reluctant to accept. Devolution does not mean the abnegation of sovereignty by this Parliament.
In respect of Scotland, the existence of a separate defamation law is explained by its own historic body of separate law. England, Wales and Northern Ireland have hitherto always marched together. I have listened carefully to the Minister’s comments and I am deeply grateful to all those who have spoken to express their grave concerns about this issue both on the part of Parliament here and, more importantly, for the people of Northern Ireland. I will want to consider it further in conjunction with my noble friends who have spoken along similar, if not identical, lines to mine and decide with them what further action might be appropriate. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Randerson
I thank the noble Lord for his amendment and I recognise the importance of cross-government co-operation in addressing certain challenges in which several departments have a role. Indeed, as he has just said, there are several examples here in Westminster such as the Minister of State for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims and the Minister of State for Trade and Investment. It is plausible that we should consider a similar approach in Northern Ireland, and the noble Lord has already highlighted some of the areas in which it could be most effective.
The noble Lord will recall that this issue was debated when he was First Minister in the Assembly in 1999, and a determination was made to appoint the junior Ministers in the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. Section 19 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 already provides for what his amendment is intended to achieve. The section permits the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to issue a determination to appoint junior Ministers. It is conceivable that, in that determination, the First Minister and Deputy First Minister could specify that the junior Minister is appointed to lead on a particular issue and across more than one department. That determination could, for example, specify that a junior Minister would work alongside the Ministers for Regional Development, the Environment and Agriculture on issues such as—to take a very topical example—flooding.
Section 19 also provides sufficient safeguards around the appointments of junior Ministers. Subsection (4) requires that any determination on the part of the First and Deputy First Ministers be approved by a vote of the Assembly. As the Government read it, the amendment may open the way to encroachment by junior Ministers on the authority of departmental Ministers. That would be a significant departure from existing structures. As to junior Ministers contributing in other ways to the working of the Executive, the noble Lord’s points will have been heard. I hope that the noble Lord will agree that this is a debate that should now be taken forward in the Assembly. I hope that he will consider withdrawing his amendment.
Lord Empey
I thank the noble Baroness for her response. Of course I want this to be debated in the Assembly, but I take issue with the substance of her point that what we have currently does what I seek to achieve. The point on which we differ is that you cannot unilaterally give departmental power to a junior Minister. Each departmental Minister has certain functions, and they cannot and should not be usurped. An example is the attempt last year to usurp the functions of the Minister for the Department of the Environment. It would have to be clearly spelt out that no encroachment could be made on the powers of a departmental Minister unless that Minister consented, because the politics of this are very important. You cannot have a Minister from one party come into a department and take part of the departmental Minister’s powers away. That would be very dangerous. So I interpret things slightly differently from the noble Baroness.
All I am trying to do is to find a solution to a problem that I have identified. I accept that the debate should move to Stormont but I wanted to highlight it because a problem exists. It is easily solved. Flooding was an excellent example, but I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, knows that the departmental system at home is very rigorous and substantial in number. Therefore, in trying to resolve some of these cross-cutting issues, we have to look for innovative and creative decisions. That is the rationale for my proposals. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, this is a very sensitive and complex issue. Of all the meetings and conversations I had and events that I went to when I was a Minister in Northern Ireland, the ones that had the most profound effect on me were those during the years when I was a Victims Minister from 2003 to 2006. If I look back, I think now that I was singularly unequipped to deal with some of the issues that I faced. People would tell me their life stories, what had happened to them and about the impact on them and their families. They would come from both sides of the community: I recall the anger of the Ballymurphy victims as well as the quiet resilience of those RUC widows left to bring children up on their own. Among all of them, I felt that it would be very hard for me to define who was a victim or who felt they were a victim.
I did some of the work on the definition taken in 2006, although my right honourable friend David Hanson took the order through. It is extraordinarily difficult to try to define who is a victim and who is not. I totally understand the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, having spoken to so many people affected by physical and psychological trauma and damage during the Troubles in Northern Ireland. On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, about people’s ongoing needs, there is that difference between individual needs and the collective needs of the community. I was also Health Minister at the same time. Trying to provide an adequate health service for the needs left by those 30 years is extraordinarily difficult. The challenge has not yet been met, in respect of both physical and mental health issues.
People who you talked to were scarred by what had happened to them and damaged by what they had seen and heard; some were damaged by what they had done themselves or by what members of their family had been involved in. An extraordinarily wide range of people were considered to be victims and felt themselves to be victims. That is why, in the 2006 Act, there was that fairly wide near-attempt at a definition. The definition we take is of those who felt that they had suffered as a consequence of those years. I am not defining some as having suffered more than others—clearly some have been through the most terrible and horrendous experiences and others have been able to cope better with what they have experienced. However, in each case, if somebody came forward and felt that their life had been altered and that they had suffered as a result, whether due to life-changing injuries or life-changing mental health issues, we did not feel able then, and I still would not know how, to differentiate any kind of hierarchy.
More than 3,000 people lost their lives and thousands more were injured and affected. These are sensitive and complex issues. Obviously those from Northern Ireland speak with far greater authority and understanding, and with direct experience, of the issues than I ever can, but our approach has been consistent and ongoing in support of a comprehensive and inclusive process to deal with the past. We stand by that and I hope that the Assembly has also asked for the British Government to be involved in that process. It would be a major step forward if the Government were to take a lead. There needs to be an inclusive and comprehensive process in Northern Ireland, covering the two areas that the noble Lord spoke about: one dealing with the physical needs and the other trying to help a community that is still scarred by what happened.
I remember many years ago, while Nelson Mandela was in prison, talking to a white South African involved in the ANC who had come over to talk to people. He commented on some people—white South Africans—who were hedging their bets, as I think somebody in the audience he was speaking to put it. Somebody said, “They’re just trying to save their skins”. He replied, “We’re all trying to save our skins”. There is a very similar situation in this case, with a whole community whose members are all trying to heal together. We have to have the British Government at the heart of that, with the Irish Government. There is a legacy of the Troubles that is difficult to address but, collectively, it can be done. It is not easy—there is certainly no consensus to start with and there are points at which it will be very difficult to gain consensus along the way, but it may be gained on very small areas.
I fully understand why the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has brought this amendment forward, but one of the difficulties with it is that definition. One of the things we looked at in 2006 was the issue of children whose family had perhaps been involved in terrorist activities and who were orphaned as a result or whose lives were changed. They were victims and, as children, were innocent. Once you get into definitions, it does become more complex. I remember a particular case I dealt with where a mother wanted her son, who had been accused of terrorist activities and had been shot by the Army, to be vindicated. That has now been done and it was totally accepted that her son was never in the wrong but had we taken the definition at that time, he would have been labelled a terrorist. Things have changed over the years.
We cannot support the amendment but we understand what is behind it. What I hope the Minister takes away from this debate is that the British Government need to be at the heart of a process. I know that the Assembly has called for that process and for talks on how we deal with the past to start. A wide range of people need to play their part in letting Northern Ireland deal with the past and trying to heal some of it.
Baroness Randerson
I think that noble Lords might agree with me when I say that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has saved the most complex and intractable issue until last. In a sense, all the other issues we have discussed here today flow from the problems associated with the issue of victims.
The amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, relates to the definition of a victim in the context of the role of the Commissioner for Victims and Survivors. Many noble Lords here today will have far more direct knowledge than I about the impact of the conflict in Northern Ireland on people’s lives over more than three decades. I recognise that those of us who do not have personal experience of the conflict must approach this debate with considerable humility and great care. I recognise the concerns that the noble Lord is making clear here today. Like the noble Baroness, I have met people in Northern Ireland who have explained to me the nature of the impact that the Troubles have had on their lives and the result of the conflict in terms of the damage that it has done to them. These are people who still suffer today.
Noble Lords will be aware of the recent talks chaired by Dr Richard Haass, where the right approach to dealing with Northern Ireland’s past was debated in detail. A key element of the approach taken during those talks was that victims and survivors should be central to any efforts to deal with the past. The Government commend the progress made by the parties in Northern Ireland in dealing with these issues during the Haass talks and I hope that progress will continue to be made in the future. As I said earlier in this debate, there are still meetings going on between the party leaders, and the Government remain hopeful that progress will be made.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, has made a moving argument. However, the Commissioner for Victims and Survivors is the responsibility of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. Any change to the definition would require cross-community support in the Assembly. The Government are particularly anxious not to cut across the initiatives in the Haass talks. To address the issue here, in this Bill, might have a negative impact on the ability of the parties in Northern Ireland to develop an inclusive process of dealing with the past. I am sure that noble Lords will agree that the all-party talks, building on progress made by Dr Haass, still represent the best chance of making progress on these matters. In the mean time, I hope that the noble Lord will consider withdrawing his amendment.
Lord Empey
My Lords, I take the point that the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, made about the differences between the recognition of the individual and the provision of services that can be made available to that person as a victim. However, there is a growing recognition that that has been an issue. My party leader, Mike Nesbitt, proposed at the end of last year a new mental health initiative where we could perhaps teach the rest of the world the expertise that we have developed in treating people because, sadly, we will all be facing the downstream consequences of the trauma caused by Iraq and Afghanistan. That will be coming before us and I do not think that, as a country, we have any grasp as yet of the scale of what people will face. Even now, 30 or 40 years after they were involved in the conflict, people, including those in the security forces, are still presenting with trauma. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, is a professional in this area and knows perfectly well what I mean.
District Electoral Areas (Northern Ireland) Order 2014
Baroness Randerson Excerpts(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Randerson
That the Grand Committee do consider the District Electoral Areas (Northern Ireland) Order 2014.
Relevant document: 17th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)
My Lords, as noble Lords will be aware, as part of the reform of local government in Northern Ireland, the number of local government districts is being reduced from 26 to 11. The new local government district boundaries were set by the Northern Ireland Assembly. The Northern Ireland Executive then brought forward legislation in 2012, the Local Government (Boundaries) Order (Northern Ireland) 2012, to divide the 11 new local government districts into wards.
As local government elections in Northern Ireland use the single transferable vote system, these wards need to be grouped together into multi-member district electoral areas for the purpose of elections to district councils. Each district electoral area contains between five and seven wards, with the number of councillors it elects equal to the number of wards it contains. With the new local government boundaries, there will be an overall reduction in the number of district electoral areas from 101 to 80.
The drawing of suggested district electoral areas is carried out by an independent District Electoral Areas Commissioner. A commissioner was initially appointed in 2009 following the appointment by the Northern Ireland Executive of a Local Government Boundaries Commissioner. However, as the ward boundaries were not finalised by the Executive prior to the end of the Commissioner’s one-year term, he was unable to make recommendations on district electoral areas. The boundaries of the local government districts and wards were finalised by the Executive in November 2012. Since the District Electoral Areas Commissioner’s original appointment had come to an end, there was no legal basis on which to reappoint someone to the same task and so the Government were required to make an order to provide this. We brought forward legislation in 2012—the District Electoral Areas Commissioner (Northern Ireland) Order 2012—and the Secretary of State then reappointed the commissioner, who resumed work in January 2013.
The District Electoral Areas Commissioner is independent of government, to ensure that the process for setting electoral areas is politically impartial. The District Electoral Areas Commissioner published provisional recommendations, as he is required to do by statute, in May 2013. Following public consultation on these provisional recommendations, assistant commissioners conducted nine public inquiries during September 2013. The District Electoral Areas Commissioner submitted his final report and recommendations to the Secretary of State, who laid the report before Parliament on 11 December 2013. I place on the record my thanks to the District Electoral Areas Commissioner, Mr Richard Mackenzie, and his team, for all their hard work.
This order brings into force the new district electoral areas as recommended to the Secretary of State by the District Electoral Areas Commissioner. Schedule 1 to the order lists the district electoral areas, and no modifications have been made to the recommendations. I hope that noble Lords will agree that this is an important order for delivering local elections in May, and I commend it to the Committee.
Lord Empey (UUP)
My Lords, as I have said in this Committee before, this represents the end of a 13 to 14-year process, so nobody has broken into a sweat with the effort of getting here. It has taken a monumental length of time to get to this point.
Technically, the Minister is correct that this is needed in order to provide for the elections to take place in May. She is also right to say that commissioners were appointed and held inquiries. I do not necessarily agree with every one of the proposals, particularly, for example, the one in respect of Enniskillen in Fermanagh. Nevertheless, the Secretary of State has accepted the recommendations and they are here before us. However, they show, for those familiar with the geography, that a fundamental injustice has been committed with the designation of the boundaries for some of the councils. A glance at the map and a glance at the proposals for Belfast show that it has been gerrymandered in the most obvious and blatant way. Areas such as Dundonald and Ballybeen have been excluded from the City of Belfast, along with Rathcoole, and included, in the case of Dundonald and Ballybeen, with Lisburn and Castlereagh, with which they have little or no connection.
However, that is not the matter before us. It is merely a point that I have made before and will make again. I suspect that more can be said when we come to the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill in Committee next week, although we do not know which day each bit will be debated. Nevertheless, I wanted to put on record my dissatisfaction with the fundamentals behind these proposals before us.
Baroness Randerson
I thank noble Lords for their participation in this short debate and very much welcome the general support that has been expressed. I will deal with the specific points made by each noble Lord. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, made the point that this has been a very long process. Progress has been on quite a knife-edge on occasion, but I agree with the noble Lord that this will bring a very big change. As the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, has just pointed out, this is an important step.
Baroness Randerson
I believe I was at the point of commenting on the size of the change that is going to take place for local government in Northern Ireland, and agreeing with the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, that this is another step along the road to creating a structure, form and way of doing government in Northern Ireland that we all take for granted but which has, at times, been very difficult to achieve there. We all welcome that process.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, referred to a particular boundary with which he disagrees, and the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, also asked me questions about specific issues which came up at the public inquiries. I am sure noble Lords will understand that it is inappropriate for me to comment on precise decisions that have been through an arms-length, politically neutral process and through a period of public consultation followed by a series of public inquiries. Reports were written, decisions were made and the Secretary of State has not felt it to be appropriate in any way to intervene or to change any of those decisions. I met the District Electoral Areas Commissioner, Mr Richard Mackenzie, a couple of weeks ago, and he took me through the process he had used—his methodology and the guidelines he had worked to—and I am totally sure of the thoroughness and political impartiality of the process.
The noble Lord, Lord Browne, very correctly referred to the difficulties of fixing boundaries in local government. It is difficult wherever you are; it is much more difficult, of course, in Northern Ireland in many ways. It is always a hugely controversial issue, because it brings into focus issues relating to individual communities, and people feel very strongly about that. However, as the noble Lord said, consideration of the Bill next week will allow us to discuss the move to make the District Electoral Areas Commissioner a reserved matter, which would enable in due course, if is felt to be appropriate after full consultation, a possible amalgamation with the boundary commissioners.
The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, welcomed the decisions in this legislation. I strongly endorse these recommendations and I urge your Lordships to accept them.
Wales: Silk Report
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)
I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this debate. I start by joining the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, and others, in the tributes to Lord Roberts of Conwy. I had known him over many years, and he provided me with an inspirational example in the way that he fulfilled his role in the Wales Office. In particular, his love of the Welsh language ensured that changes were made at the time that have strengthened the language and its position in society.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, for securing the debate today on the very important opportunities for Wales presented by the recommendations made by the Silk commission in its Part 1 report. I also paid tribute to the hard work of the Silk commission that went into the report, and I note the important role that the noble Lord played in that process. I have listened carefully to noble Lords in the Chamber and I am pleased that the Government’s response to the Silk commission’s recommendations has been broadly welcomed by several noble Lords, as has the draft Wales Bill, which, we must remember, implements the vast majority of its key recommendations, and which is currently undergoing pre-legislative scrutiny in the other place.
The Government believe that the devolution of tax and borrowing powers should be used to help to generate jobs and growth in the Welsh economy; to give Wales a competitive edge; and to make Wales a more prosperous place. Our response to the Silk commission and the powers we will transfer to Cardiff Bay, take forward these principles. The Welsh economy has lagged behind other parts of the UK for far too long—a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson—and we intend to give the Welsh Government and the National Assembly for Wales the tools to change that.
Just as importantly, implementing the Silk commission’s recommendations will also make the devolved institutions in Wales more accountable to the people who elect them. We fully agree with the commission’s key recommendation: that the funding model of a block grant and some devolved taxes best meets sound principles for funding the Welsh Government, and that part of their budget should be funded from devolved taxation under their control. Since devolution, the Assembly and the Welsh Government have been accountable only for how they spend taxpayers’ money—a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys. They will now become more accountable for how they raise it.
The Government demonstrated our commitment to these reforms by publishing the draft Wales Bill before the Christmas recess, only one month after we announced our response to the Silk 1 recommendations. We wanted pre-legislative scrutiny of this important legislation to take place in this Session of Parliament, and I am pleased to say that the Welsh Affairs Select Committee already has that scrutiny well under way. Subject to successful parliamentary passage of the legislation, I hope the new tax and borrowing powers to be devolved well before the next Assembly elections in May 2016.
I want an early referendum called as soon as possible after the legislation is passed, and I will be campaigning for a yes vote. I hope that the First Minister will be joining me.
In response to the points made about the ability to vary income tax in each band by the noble Lords, Lord Bourne and Lord Wigley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, among others, we believe that the so-called lock-step system of income tax devolution that we have set out in the draft Wales Bill is the right system for Wales. The system applies in Scotland and was agreed with the Scottish Government, with a single devolved rate for all bands. We believe that it would work equally well in Wales. It delivers on two key principles that underpin the Government’s approach to devolving income tax. It ensures that the UK maintains a progressive tax system. As the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, said just now, it prevents a damaging race to the bottom on higher-rate taxes, one where the tax rate increases as the income of an individual increases.
The income tax structure is a key mechanism to redistribute wealth across the whole of the UK, which is why we believe it is properly set at a UK level. That point was made clearly and firmly by the Calman commission in respect of its recommendations on Scotland. That point transcends both Scotland and Wales and applies to both countries. The lock step ensures that the gap between income tax rate is consistent across the UK; that devolved government works comfortably within the parameters of the UK; and that fiscal devolution does not benefit one part of the UK at the expense of another. This could occur if the Welsh Government were to set substantially lower rates for higher and additional taxpayers without having to change the basic rate.
Devolving income tax would give the Welsh Government a crucial lever that they could use to reduce taxes across the board in Wales to put money back into the pockets of people in Wales who are working hard and deserve to hold on to more of the money that they have earned. It will create new incentives for growth and jobs and rekindle the spirit of entrepreneurialism. If the people of Wales decide in a referendum in favour of income tax devolution, the Welsh Government would become responsible for almost half of the income tax generated in Wales, making it more accountable while giving them flexibility over levels of tax and spending. An important issue is, crucially, that devolution of income tax would give the Welsh Government access to a significantly larger revenue stream to finance borrowing. So it is far from being a power that cannot be used.
Even if the Welsh Government decided not to vary income tax rates, it would still provide a base for borrowing as well as a base for accountability. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, pointed out, you have to win the referendum first. I am surprised that the noble Lord can envisage only a situation where the Welsh Government would wish to increase tax if income tax were to be devolved. Under the Government’s proposal it would be just as feasible for the Welsh Government to reduce rates of income tax—for example, by half a pence or one pence in the pound. The noble Lord and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, both reflect the view, which is all too prevalent in the Labour Party, that taxes could only be altered by increasing them and not by decreasing them.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, the Minister has mentioned three times now the wish, which she clearly reflects, to reduce income tax and reduce the revenue the Assembly would have. What services is she going to cut to facilitate that?
Baroness Randerson
The noble Lord does not take account of the well known economic mechanism that reduced taxes create more money in people’s pockets, which stimulates the economy, which in turn causes more taxation to be collected. That is a basic point of economics that the Government are pressing.
Much time has been devoted to income tax, but we should not forget stamp duty land tax, which was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, which will give us a chance to reshape the housing market in Wales in a way which is much more appropriate for Wales.
Further, we must not overlook business rates. The full devolution of business rates can be implemented almost immediately and without legislation, a crucial point which will enable the Welsh Government to get on with stimulating, for example, the establishment of new SMEs.
The noble Lord, Lord Bourne, asked about the future of the aggregates levy proposal. We have promised that we will review that once the situation in Europe is clear. On air passenger duty, we are not convinced that this will do any more than shift passengers from one airport to another. The situation in Northern Ireland is different: it is the only part of the UK that has a land border with another European country. That is the key difference.
Several noble Lords referred to Barnett reform, including the noble Lords, Lord Elystan-Morgan, Lord Bourne and Lord Thomas. The issue of fair funding is set out in the following way. The arrangements that we agreed with the Welsh Government, set out in our joint statement in October 2012, established a process to review the relative levels of funding for Wales and England in advance of each spending review. That process worked well at the spending review last year. It provides a firm basis for the devolution of income tax, should that be the outcome of the referendum. Convergence is not occurring at this moment; indeed, divergence is occurring, and funding levels are well within the parameters recommended as fair in the Holtham commission’s report, contrary to what the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, said. If convergence is forecast to resume, we have committed to discuss it with the Welsh Government and to address it in a fair and affordable manner.
I thank noble Lords for their contributions. This Government have delivered for Wales on devolution and will go on doing so. Devolved Governments will be fairer and more accountable and will be able to create a stronger Welsh economy as a result of these proposals. It will be a giant step forward in the development of devolution. This Government are ambitious for Wales and are planning to give the Welsh Government the tools to do the job to stimulate the economy. It is up to the Welsh Government to use those tools effectively.
Northern Ireland: Royal Residence
Baroness Randerson Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Lexden
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what arrangements are being made to establish a permanent Royal Residence in Northern Ireland.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)
My Lords, in Northern Ireland Hillsborough Castle is the official residence of Her Majesty the Queen and has been the sovereign’s residence since 1922. The castle is also the residence of the Secretary of State and of the Minister for Northern Ireland. Current proposals are to pass the operation of Hillsborough Castle to Historic Royal Palaces and significantly to increase public access. However, full royal and ceremonial use will continue unchanged.
Lord Lexden (Con)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for telling the House about the important decision to place Hillsborough in the guardianship of the Historic Royal Palaces trust. Does not the existence of a permanent royal residence both symbolise and underline the enduring commitment of the Royal Family to all sections of the community in this part of our country—a commitment perhaps best expressed by the late Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother, who once told my noble friend Lord Molyneaux that each night she included in her prayers, “God Bless Ulster”? Does my noble friend also agree that it is most fitting that the decision should come in the year that His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales celebrated his 65th birthday, for the cross-community work of his many charitable organisations contributes significantly to progress in Northern Ireland today?
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that the Royal Family is to be commended for its loyalty and for the work that it has done with Northern Ireland. We all remember the significance almost two years ago of the Queen’s handshake. The existence of Hillsborough Castle as a royal residence is guaranteed under the new arrangements, and full facilities for royal access will be there. It will be easy for members of the Royal Family to use the castle when they wish for their royal duties in Northern Ireland.
Lord Alderdice (LD)
My Lords, does my noble friend accept that, given the extraordinary—indeed, transformational—effect of Her Majesty’s visit to the Republic of Ireland, and the fact that Hillsborough Castle is not only a royal residence but a place of enormous political significance on the island of Ireland because of the signing of the Anglo-Irish agreement and the importance of other negotiations, there is a real possibility of tourist potential not just from within Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, but that many people south of the border will be keen to come to Hillsborough Castle for its associations with Her Majesty and the Royal Family, as well as the important political associations that it also has?
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, the intention is that the new arrangements will make it easier to attract both domestic and foreign tourists to visit Hillsborough Castle. It is important to remember that as well as being a beautiful castle—a beautiful building with beautiful grounds—it has tremendous historic significance. It is important to remember that royal tourism alone is estimated to be worth £500 million a year to the United Kingdom. Therefore, it is important that we open up the castle as much as possible—and considerably more than has been possible in the past.
Lord Empey (UUP)
My Lords, in welcoming the Minister’s reply, I will ask her two questions. First, Hillsborough Castle is owned by the Northern Ireland Office. When is it anticipated that it will be transferred to the Historic Royal Palaces trust, and will any additional trustees, including a trustee from Northern Ireland, be added to the trust board?
Baroness Randerson
There will be no change to the ownership of Hillsborough Castle. An agreement will be signed with Historic Royal Palaces. It is anticipated, following negotiations, that it will be signed next April, but there will be a transition period of two to three years before the full handover to the new arrangements is complete. On the question of trustees, a Northern Ireland group already exists in relation to Hillsborough Castle. It is intended that this should be refreshed and set up anew under the new arrangements. It will have a strong representation from Northern Ireland, as well as trustees appointed by Her Majesty the Queen.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)
Does my noble friend accept that if Scotland votes for independence, the future of Balmoral must be called into question? Would that situation not make it even more important that there is a royal residence in Northern Ireland?
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, along with many of your Lordships, I am concentrating on supporting the Better Together campaign. I am not making plans, and neither are my noble friends, for any future situation in Balmoral.
Lord Bew (CB)
My Lords, does the Minister accept that the fact that she is able to make this announcement today reverses the great historic error of the 19th century in not having a royal residence in Ireland, and that it can only be done because of the stability brought to Northern Ireland’s constitutional status as a result of the Good Friday agreement of 1998?
Baroness Randerson
Hillsborough has been in its current situation since about 1922, I believe, but the noble Lord makes a very good point. It is the stability of the political situation that has made it possible for the Northern Ireland Office to consider new arrangements for the management of Hillsborough Castle, and to ensure at the same time that security levels are maintained. That will be possible under the new arrangements because of the security and political situation.
Lord Dannatt (CB)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a trustee of Historic Royal Palaces. Will the Minister confirm that there has been very widespread consultation both within Northern Ireland and in Ireland itself, and that the experience of Historic Royal Palaces in running five additional palaces in the United Kingdom gives the charity great experience? I hope that the Minister will also agree that we can have every confidence that this will be a successful and prominent move for the future that will make the castle more available to all people, both tourists and local residents.
Baroness Randerson
I am delighted to confirm that the Northern Ireland Office sought a secure and prosperous future for Hillsborough, and one that would enable it to be opened up to the public. Historic Royal Palaces was the obvious choice, because as an organisation it does not depend on public money and it has a very well established position through the five palaces it already runs. Indeed, it is the case that the Royal Family has already signed an agreement with Historic Royal Palaces about the future use of Hillsborough Castle.
European Parliamentary Elections (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2013
Baroness Randerson Excerpts(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Baroness Randerson
That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 24 October be approved.
Relevant documents: 12th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 26 November.
Local Elections (Northern Ireland) Order 2013
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Baroness Randerson
That the draft Order laid before the House on 30 October be approved.
Relevant documents: 12th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 26 November.
Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
Baroness Randerson Excerpts(10 years, 11 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)
My Lords, there can be little doubt that the political settlement in Northern Ireland has delivered huge benefits, both for the people of Northern Ireland and for the wider United Kingdom. Many noble Lords present today are far better placed than I am to describe the changes we have seen since the dark days of the Troubles.
So much is now happening that would not have been considered possible even 10 years ago. Whether we look at big events like the G8 summit, the World Police and Fire Games, or the first Fleadh to be held in Northern Ireland, or important milestones in the process, such as the end of the first full Assembly term in 2011, or indicators of wider attitudes towards institutions, such as the almost 2,300 Catholics who applied to join PSNI this year, it is clear that enormous progress has been made. However, alongside those markers of progress, we have also seen violence and political tensions linked to issues such as flags. It is today exactly one year since violence broke out over flags issues.
We are all aware that there is still a long way to go before Northern Ireland has the prosperous economy and stronger society which I know all of us in this House would like to see. Sectarian division carries great risks to the economy, to security, and to the general well-being of Northern Ireland’s people. Without economic success, peace is less well rooted. There is much to do in Northern Ireland to bring us on from the legacy of decades of troubles, but it seems to the Government that the two challenges of community division and rebalancing the economy are ones that are critical for the future.
Of course, other questions are being considered in Northern Ireland at present. The all-party group chaired by Dr Richard Haass is considering parades, flags and emblems and the past. Those are some of the most deeply rooted problems that Northern Ireland faces, so that is important work. It is very welcome that that group is undertaking it, first, because the devolved institutions have taken up the challenge of dealing with these issues—not, as would have happened in the past, leaving the lead to the Government. It is welcome also because the Northern Ireland authorities secured to chair the talks someone of the eminence of Dr Haass, who has earned universal respect in Northern Ireland for his grasp of the issues and his energetic dedication to the task. I am aware that some noble Lords in the House will take a close interest in those issues, and we will have to consider when we see the report how we can best give opportunity for those views to be expressed, bearing in mind that the process and the report are owned in Belfast rather than here.
Few would argue that the institutions established under the agreements are beyond improvement, but let us remember that they have given us the relatively stable politics that no other approach in the past 40 years has been able to do. There may come a time when significant change is considered. However, the Government have been very clear that major changes to the institutions established by the agreements can go ahead only if they have broad support across the community in Northern Ireland. It is also essential that any such change is consistent with the principles of power-sharing and inclusivity that are at the heart of the Belfast agreement. At present it is clear that there is no consensus around fundamental changes, and the Bill does not seek to make any. The imperative in Northern Ireland at present is, as I have suggested, to tackle the issues around sectarianism and around strengthening the economy.
I therefore readily acknowledge that the Bill does not make radical changes, but it does make important ones. It is a Bill for more normal times. It reflects progress in Northern Ireland, making changes which remove some of the special measures which have been implemented because of Northern Ireland’s unique situation, and which bring the system in Northern Ireland closer to Great Britain. However, it also acknowledges that there are areas where institutions in Northern Ireland might benefit from further reform. I know that some noble Lords look forward to a day when there might be scope for more substantial changes to the institutions. I hope that debates during the passage of the Bill in this House will give us the opportunity to reflect on these possibilities, always bearing in mind the need to proceed by agreement.
I turn to the contents of the Bill, which amends the regime governing political donations and loans to make more information available to voters in Northern Ireland about the funding of political parties. This matter has been debated on several occasions in this Chamber and I know that noble Lords take the issue very seriously. I hope we can all agree that it is right to protect the names of those who made donations in the past. These individuals made donations in the belief that they would remain confidential, and it would be wrong to change this retrospectively. I hope we can also agree that future political donations in Northern Ireland should be published as soon as the security situation allows. What we may not agree on is whether that time has already arrived.
The provisions in the Bill take a cautious approach. They set a date after which permanent anonymity will not be guaranteed, and they give the Government the power to increase transparency incrementally. For the moment, we believe the security situation does not justify publication of donor names, but it is important to ensure we have the flexibility to move towards the goal of bringing Northern Ireland’s transparency rules into line with the rest of the UK. If the Bill proceeds successfully to the statute book, we intend to move as swiftly as possible thereafter to draft secondary legislation on transparency. We would, of course, consult on these provisions, but we can confirm that our intention is that information about donations and loans made to political parties since 2007 which does not identify the donor would be made public—for example, the type of donor, its value, the date on which it was received and whether it was from an Irish source. We will look to use the power to increase transparency in the Bill to bring Northern Ireland closer to the system which operates in Great Britain as soon as possible, taking into account the security situation.
The Bill will also bring about the end of dual mandates between the Northern Ireland Assembly and the House of Commons, or the Dáil, by the time of the next Assembly elections in 2016. The practice has long been a matter of concern. Indeed, the Committee on the Preparation for Government, formed prior to the talks at St Andrews in 2006, debated the issue of dual mandates and agreed that the practice should be phased out. Even though good progress towards ending dual mandates has been made since 2010, half of Northern Ireland MPs were also MLAs following the Assembly elections in 2011. Of course, some have now given up one seat or the other, but it is important to ensure that double-jobbing ceases permanently to be a feature of political life.
Over the years, many Members have served with distinction in the House of Commons and at the Assembly. While the institutions in Northern Ireland were not stable, it was understandable that double-jobbing was a feature of political life. But times have changed; the stable operation of the Assembly seems set to continue. Being an MLA is now a full-time job and it is therefore no longer appropriate for dual mandates to continue.
When the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill was debated in late 2010, concern was expressed in Scotland and Wales that a general election would overshadow the devolved one and cause voter confusion if held on the same day. The decision was taken in early 2011 to extend the terms of the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly to avoid their elections coinciding with a Commons election. As regards Northern Ireland, my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace indicated during the course of the debate on the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill at that time that similar changes for the Northern Ireland Executive would be considered following the triple poll of May 2011. The Bill brings the position in relation to the Northern Ireland institutions into line with the approach in Scotland and Wales. By providing for a fixed five-year term for the Assembly, it will also permanently decouple Westminster and Assembly elections.
The Bill also makes changes to give the Justice Minister the same security of tenure as the other Executive Ministers. This is in response to a request from the First Minister and Deputy First Minister that followed inter-party discussions, after which the Assembly agreed the permanent method of selecting a Justice Minister. It is vital for the continued stability of the Northern Ireland institutions that the Assembly is able to elect an individual who commands cross-community support to the post of Justice Minister and that the allocation of ministerial posts between parties thereafter is fair. I hope that all Noble Lords will be able to support the changes set out in the Bill to achieve this.
Clause 6 gives the power to the Assembly to reduce the number of MLAs itself, subject to consent from Westminster. Unfortunately, it has not been possible to secure agreement among the parties on an actual reduction, but we hope that agreement will be forthcoming. Many now take the view that Northern Ireland has too many elected politicians. Long-awaited reforms of local government structures are addressing that level, but there is also clearly scope to reduce the size of the Assembly. To allow the reduction to take place without further primary legislation, the Bill makes this matter reserved, meaning that the Assembly could legislate on this matter, with the consent of the Secretary of State.
This Bill also recognises that progress has been made in Northern Ireland that makes it appropriate for the Government to consider whether the Assembly and the Executive might take the lead on issues that have previously been excepted matters. The relationship between Stormont and this place is maturing, and the Executive are taking the lead on Northern Ireland’s future. In this context, we believe it right that we make provision that opens the way to devolving functions relating to the Civil Service Commissioners for Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and the District Electoral Areas Commissioner. By placing these matters in the reserved category, the Bill would enable devolution to take place, following a full consultation, a cross-community vote in the Assembly, and votes in both Houses here. The Government would also be ready to consider devolution of the Secretary of State’s appointment responsibilities for the Equality Commission. We hope to begin consultation on these issues shortly after Royal Assent.
The Bill also makes a number of other important, but more minor provisions, in relation to equality duties, court rules and electoral registration and administration, among others. We want to give effect to recommendations by the Electoral Commission and Chief Electoral Officer to improve the conduct of elections in Northern Ireland, and to reduce the special measures that have been applied to Northern Ireland in respect of elections, recognising that, while we must always be vigilant, past concerns about electoral fraud have been ameliorated.
The measures in this Bill do not make the kinds of sweeping changes to government in Northern Ireland that we have seen when considering Northern Ireland matters in the past. But although the changes made in the Bill are not radical, they are important. They would improve the functioning of Northern Ireland institutions and the way in which they function; they would open the way to changes in the powers of Stormont vis-à-vis Westminster; and they would improve democratic accountability and strengthen the electoral system. I hope that this Bill will play its part in helping to address the challenges faced by today’s Northern Ireland, and I commend the Bill to the House. I beg to move.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, I have listened with great interest to the debate and I thank all speakers for their thoughtful and constructive contributions. Their depth of experience and the imaginative approach that has been adopted across the House augurs very well for the quality of the debate that we will have in the future as we examine amendments and go through the Bill clause by clause. I know that many of today’s speakers are truly expert on the matters under discussion and clearly their views are very valuable.
I am pleased that so many in this House felt able to express support for some of the provisions in the Bill. The Government have been mindful of the need to seek as much consensus as possible, particularly on the constitutional matters dealt with in the legislation. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that possibly our definitions of “consensus” are different. Consensus that there is a problem is probably the starting point with many of these things, although consensus on the solution may not come until some hard work has been done in searching for that solution to the problem.
I welcome the support for the Bill from the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, and should like to address one of the issues that he and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised concerning the NCA. The Crime and Courts Act includes order-making powers so that the NCA arrangements can be fully extended to Northern Ireland when the Northern Ireland Assembly gives its consent. Unfortunately, as a result of not securing consent, the activities of the NCA in Northern Ireland are restricted and the level of support that the NCA can provide to the PSNI in the fight against serious and organised crime is reduced. However, I emphasise in particular to the noble Baroness that David Ford, the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland, is continuing to discuss this matter and is seeking to get agreement with the Northern Ireland parties. The Home Secretary remains open to proposals for arrangements to ensure that the NCA is answerable for its activities in Northern Ireland.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for that explanation and I apologise that this issue is not quite clear to me. I am trying to understand whether the Government were engaged in discussions with Northern Ireland. I appreciate David Ford’s role—he has been very good on this—but my query concerns the Government’s role in this.
Baroness Randerson
It is important to remember that justice is now a devolved issue. Although the Secretary of State and indeed the Home Secretary take a very proactive approach in liaising with the Justice Minister, the decision has to lie with the Northern Ireland Executive. I understand the sense of frustration felt by many noble Lords when we often talk here about issues that are devolved, but the whole stream of thought behind the Bill is to enable the devolved Assembly in Northern Ireland to operate more as the other devolved bodies do, so that Northern Ireland becomes less of a special case. In this particular case, the Government are very concerned that there should be a solution, and they are actively working towards obtaining that solution in a way that is acceptable across the parties in Northern Ireland.
Lord Empey
I am sorry to interrupt the Minister but the National Crime Agency—I repeat, the National Crime Agency—is not exclusively a matter for the devolved regions. I respectfully request that the Minister refers to a comment made by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, who answered a debate in this House. I specifically asked him what would happen in the event that the Northern Ireland Assembly did not agree to this because I felt that it had no intention of agreeing to it. I asked what would happen if there was deemed to be a potential national threat posed by a pool of individuals in Northern Ireland who were not subject to the same rigour as would be the case elsewhere. He said that the Government would act responsibly.
I accept that the right way to do it is the way in which it is being pursued at the moment with Northern Ireland Ministers and the Executive. But this House cannot escape ultimate responsibility if leaving things unsatisfactorily resolved in Northern Ireland would ultimately pose a threat to the entire United Kingdom, which could happen. I just make the point to the noble Baroness that she might refer to the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, when he answered the debate.
Baroness Randerson
I thank the noble Lord for his intervention and for his comments in respect of accepting the fact that this is a devolved issue and that the right way to deal with it is via the Justice Minister. The devolution of justice and the failure to accept the role of the NCA does not mean that it does not operate at all in Northern Ireland. Only some of its functions are affected. I say again that the Home Secretary is very proactively working to encourage a solution that will enable the NCA to be answerable within Northern Ireland.
Comments made by the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, about the past on this topic were similar to those made by my noble friend Lord Alderdice, the noble Lord, Lord Browne, and others. This relates to the Haass talks and the whole topic of the past. It is important to bear in mind that the Haass talks are reaching a conclusion. The expectation is that there will be a report before Christmas. The Northern Ireland Executive once again owns this process. These are sensitive and difficult issues, and it is important that we give our support to that procedure so that we are able to take from it any positive outcome that is possible. Three issues are being dealt with by the Haass talks. They are separate but intertwined issues and the past is a very important part of them.
I remind noble Lords of the words of Her Majesty the Queen when she said that as a society we must respect the past but should not be bound by it. It is important that, when the Haass talks are concluded, we give full support to the Northern Ireland Executive in the way in which they intend to implement any recommendations.
As my noble friend Lord Trimble pointed out, welfare devolution has existed in Northern Ireland since 1920. It would be a serious piece of undevolution to take that back now in the context of the Northern Ireland Executive’s failure so far to introduce parity. It is important to bear in mind that it would be open to the Northern Ireland parties to seek to have the responsibility in these fields taken back, but it would require the agreement of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. There would also have to be cross-community support in the Assembly and votes here and in the other place, so it would be a very complex issue.
To my knowledge, there been no call for control over welfare to be brought back to this place. It is, however, to be seriously borne in mind that the failure of the Northern Ireland Executive until now to address the issue of welfare reform will impose a serious financial penalty on the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Executive because of the costs of a more expensive welfare system.
Lord Trimble
I appreciate the points that the Minister has made, but I just wanted to point out to her that her earlier comments about this being a serious and grave matter are completely beside the point. This has in the past been a mere formality. There has been no substance to the devolved character of welfare in Northern Ireland. It is not a matter of significance at that end at all. With all respect, I think that the Minister's comments on this are inaccurate and premature.
Baroness Randerson
At the moment, for the first time, I believe that we are seeing that the devolution of welfare to Northern Ireland is becoming a separate and tricky issue. Until now, it has not been of any great significance on a day-to-day basis because, after all, the welfare system in Northern Ireland has mirrored that in the rest of the country. Only now are we seeing an issue. Once again, it is an issue for the Northern Ireland Executive to take on board. There is a possibility that the legislation would make a successful passage through the Assembly.
Several noble Lords raised the issue of dual mandates and whether this legislation was only for Northern Ireland, although the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, mentioned that legislation would also be going through for Wales in the near future.
On the issue of not legislating in relation to the House of Lords, we are talking about a dual mandate. The House of Lords enjoys a very separate and interesting role, which is almost unique in the world. We are not elected, as such, and have no fixed terms. Indeed, many noble Lords rejoice in the fact that we are enriched by having so many Members who have very active lives outside this place. Therefore, it is unlikely that the Government would regard any restrictions on Members of this House in that respect.
Can I make a point about there being a lack of legislation in relation to Scotland? The Government are very concerned not to legislate to solve a problem that does not exist. This has not been a problem in relation to the Scottish Parliament. Therefore there is no proposal to deal with the dual mandate in relation to Scotland.
I turn to the comments made by my noble friends Lord Alderdice and Lord Shutt. In relation to the size of the Assembly and the proposal to enable it to become smaller, I take on board entirely the warnings that they both made in relation to making the Assembly so small that you could not allow breadth of opinion or enable minority parties to be elected. The Government and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State certainly will be considering that very seriously. The most commonly suggested figure is that each area should be represented by five MLAs rather than six, which would bring the number down to 90.
Comparison was made with the Welsh Assembly. I know from my personal experience that membership of the Welsh Assembly is a stretching exercise, because Members of the Assembly—there are only 60—have to be so broad in their approach. However, I do not think there are suggestions that would take the Northern Assembly down to that level.
I note the comments of my noble friend Lord Alderdice in relation to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and the need for independence of view. I am sure that I can look forward to some probing amendments and some interesting points.
I note particularly the comments of my noble friend Lord Alderdice about David Ford. My noble friend said that he had done a good job as Justice Minister; I add my own endorsement. David Ford has tackled a heavy workload of very difficult issues with great sensitivity and imagination. We can rapidly forget how controversial it was when justice was devolved to Northern Ireland and the success he has made of that. His tremendous contribution is to be applauded.
The noble Lord, Lord Browne, referred to the issue of transparency on donations and supported the proposals in the Bill. He rightly reminded us of the difficulty of getting donations in past years. Those of us who are politicians in mainland Britain probably find it hard to imagine how difficult it was in Northern Ireland in years gone by to encourage people to donate to political parties.
I want to address particularly the issue of donations from Ireland and Irish citizens living abroad. The Secretary of State already has the power to deal with that, should she wish to do so; but because some parties are established on both sides of the border, it can be very difficult to deal with that issue. However, I say to noble Lords who are concerned about this that the Bill makes the first steps to greater transparency. We do not yet know how much of a problem this is; the noble Lord, Lord Bew, speculated about it. We will know in the future, when the Electoral Commission is in a position to tell us the type of donation and where it came from. We will have those categories in the immediate future, even if we do not have the names of the donors. It is important that we welcome the Bill from that perspective.
The noble Lord, Lord Browne, also referred to the petition of concern and asked whether the number there should go down proportionately if the number of MLAs is reduced. I remind the noble Lord that 30 was specified in the Good Friday agreement, so we would be open to changing that only if there was broad cross-community agreement. However, I share his support for the Bill in the hope that it will keep politics moving forward.
My noble friend Lord Brooke spoke from his own extensive experience. He referred to the name of the Bill and to the d’Hondt system. The d’Hondt system is very close to my heart as a Liberal Democrat because it is intrinsically connected with proportional representation. I think that MLAs in general understand the purpose of d’Hondt, even if they cannot actually do the intensely complex calculations. However, I share my noble friend’s comments about the need for, and the hopes for, improvement.
I ask noble Lords whether they will bear with me and accept that I will look through their speeches carefully and respond to any specific questions noble Lords have asked me at this point. Some things are clearly going to crop up time and again.
Finally, I know that the changes in the Bill do not go as far as some would like and that, in some cases, they go faster than others would like. I look forward to a flurry of amendments as noble Lords apply their creativity and test the provisions of the Bill. It may be miscellaneous but it has certainly provoked some very serious thought here today. The Government are focused on the priorities of rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy and creating a shared society. We do not view legislation as the answer to Northern Ireland’s most important problems but this Bill is an important step along the road to ensuring that politics and the constitutional structure in Northern Ireland become more normal and more like the rest of the UK.
Wales: Cost of Living
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, for securing today’s debate on what I believe noble Lords all agree are important issues in Wales. I have listened carefully to noble Lords this evening and I recognise their concerns. As a Government, we understand that it is and remains a difficult time for low earners in particular, and for those on benefits.
The UK economy is recovering from the most damaging economic and financial crisis in generations. The Government appreciate that times are tough for families, so we have continued to take action to help with living standards. Last year, real household disposable income grew by 1.4%, which is the fastest growth for three years.
One of the key actions that we have taken to help hard-working people is to reduce the income tax burden by raising the threshold to £10,000. Many noble Lords have referred to low pay. This Government’s policies will take the 130,000 lowest-paid workers in Wales out of income tax altogether and will benefit 1.1 million taxpayers in Wales. That will make a real difference to low-income households. That increase in the personal allowance will be worth £705 per year for the typical taxpayer.
Noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, have referred to energy prices and highlighted the importance of energy costs. We are in the process of restoring the neglected infrastructure that the coalition Government inherited from their Labour predecessor. Between 1997 and 2010, the average domestic gas bill doubled and the price of liquid fuels, on which many rural households in Wales rely, increased by more than 300%.
I must remind noble Lords that in 2000, there were 14 major energy suppliers. By 2010 there were just six. That took the bottom out of the market in terms of competition and its impact. However, we are reforming the energy market and encouraging investment in our energy infrastructure, which will help to stabilise consumer prices and reduce our exposure to fossil fuel price hikes in the longer term. We are committed to ensuring that all customers are on the lowest available tariff and we are making it easier to switch suppliers.
Many noble Lords referred to welfare reform. The picture of poverty that the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, painted is one that has existed for far too long and has got steadily worse since the turn of the century. The picture of child poverty is one that is only too familiar to me. The situation has got steadily worse. The picture on GVA, which several noble Lords referred to, is also one where Wales, versus the rest of the UK, has steadily declined since the turn of the century. These are not issues that started with the coalition Government. I am grateful to those noble Lords who pointed out that the history of poverty in Wales did not start in May 2010.
I have also listened to concerns from noble Lords about government policy to reform the dependency on welfare in the UK. I must say I am greatly concerned that there are, for example, 200,000 people in Wales who could work but who have never worked. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, for pointing out that this is a third-generation problem in Wales, not something that started recently. Worklessness is a persistent problem in Wales and successive Governments have failed to reform the system. However, this Government are working tirelessly to improve the incentive to work, as work remains the best route out of poverty.
Already we are seeing people moving into work in order to accommodate the changes to their benefits. This is a positive step for Wales, its communities and the individuals who were previously locked into the benefit system. There is no fairness in retaining a welfare system that traps people in a life on benefits; it is not good for them, or their families, and it is certainly not good for Wales.
The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Drefelin, referred to the Shelter report. I point out that it is the responsibility of local authorities to ensure that all those people who are eligible, get discretionary housing payments. It is important that local authorities in Wales are pursuing that in the way that they should. I was concerned, however, to hear the noble Baroness say that social landlords—discretionary housing payments relate to social landlords—are not letting tenants know about discretionary housing payments in some cases. I will take that issue up with the Minister in the Welsh Government to ensure that that is undertaken. I will also write to the relevant body, Community Housing Cymru, about the issue.
In relation to comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, I am very happy to visit RCT Homes. The noble Baroness also asked me about libraries and local government. Those are entirely a devolved issue. Those issues are entirely the result of decisions by the Welsh Government, and it would be improper of me to make detailed comments on their policy and their decision.
I turn now to the spare room subsidy. We accept that some people will need extra help and the Government are continuing to support local authorities in Wales, in particular with the housing benefit reforms via discretionary housing payments. In Wales we have trebled the funding available and are now providing more than £7 million, with extra money for some rural communities. The noble Lord, Lord Bourne, made reference to council tax increases. Once again, those are, as he pointed out, the decision of the Labour Government in Wales. As a responsible Government, the coalition Government feel that we must be serious about welfare reform. We inherited a welfare system built to deal with a 1940s society and no longer able to deliver the support that people need in a modern, flexible labour market.
The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, made the point that Wales has been hit hard by welfare reform. Of course it has; it is one of the areas of Britain most heavily dependent on welfare. I point out to the noble Baroness that two-thirds of the additional jobs created in the past year in Wales have been full-time, and that 80% of those working part-time have said that they do not want a full-time job.
The noble Baroness asked me to make a comment about women. There are 20,000 more women in work now in Wales than there were in May 2010.
The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, referred to the Chief Medical Officer’s report and to the importance of good public services, and our dependence on them. That is something that the Joseph Rowntree Foundation highlighted as one of the main actions to alleviate poverty in Wales. It said that there was a dependence on, and a need for, good public services. Too often, unfortunately, in Wales, those services lag behind the rest of the UK. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation also pointed out the importance of job creation. I am proud to say that that is what the coalition Government are doing in Wales, more than ever before. Overall, 71,000 more people are in employment in Wales since May 2010, economic inactivity has fallen by 49,000, and the number of unemployed people has fallen by 15,000.
The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, pointed out how few people in Wales pay the higher rate of income tax. That is a problem, and it is one that we can overcome only by a very determined effort, with the formation of new businesses. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, asked what we were doing in a time of rapid change to accommodate that change. Our response, as a Government, is a massive investment in infrastructure. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, that it is a great pity that the previous Labour Government did not undertake that investment in infrastructure in the 13 years for which they were in power, because it takes a very long time to build infrastructure. Therefore, it is very difficult for us to make up for that lost time.
I do not share the politics of envy that was expressed here on one or two occasions. Wales must aspire to have wealthier people and successful businesses. I am proud of Wales and I want to talk Wales up. I am sad that over so many generations Wales has suffered from poverty and has gradually fallen back in respect of the rest of the UK. I am confident that Wales can deliver, that Wales can prosper and that Wales will continue to cultivate an economy that sustains good jobs, develops infrastructure and improves standards of living for everyone.
European Parliamentary Elections (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2013
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Baroness Randerson
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the European Parliamentary Elections (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2013.
Relevant document: 12th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)
My Lords, in moving this Motion, I shall speak also to the next Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper: that is, on the draft Local Elections (Northern Ireland) Order 2013.
I will speak first to the local elections order and then come on to the European parliamentary election regulations. The local elections order makes important changes linked to local government reform in Northern Ireland, and I have a detailed set of remarks to cover its extent.
As noble Lords will be aware, local government in Northern Ireland is undergoing significant reorganisation, part of which involves reducing the number of local councils from 26 to 11. The Northern Ireland Executive is responsible for the reform programme, but elections to local councils are excepted, and so are the responsibility of the UK Government. The Northern Ireland Executive asked the Government to support the reform by bringing forward the date of the local election by one year and facilitating a transitional period until 2015, during which councillors elected to the new councils will serve in parallel with existing councils.
The order makes changes in four main areas. First, it delivers a transitional period; secondly, it makes temporary changes required only for the 2014 elections; thirdly, it makes consequential changes to polling districts and places for parliamentary elections; and, fourthly, it allows the local election poll to be combined with the European parliamentary poll.
I will now briefly explain the changes being made in each of those areas. The order brings forward the date of the next scheduled local election in Northern Ireland by one year to 22 May 2014. The transitional period will run from the fourth day after the election until 31 March 2015. The order provides that the new councils will come into their full powers on 1 April 2015 but will be able to exercise powers in relation to limited transitional issues in advance of that date. For example, that would include taking decisions on the formation of the new councils in relation to rates, debts and standards of service provision.
New councillors will remain in office until 2019, four years after assuming full powers. Existing councillors will remain in office until 1 April 2015 and continue to exercise powers in relation to the day-to-day management of council business, but not on transitional issues. Vacancies in the new councils will be filled by co-option if they arise during the transitional period, and any vacancies on existing councils will continue to be filled by co-option until 1 January 2015.
The order also introduces some temporary changes, required only for the first election of the new councils in 2014. The first is in relation to election expenses. The Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland can normally claim an advance on his local election expenses before the election from the relevant local council to allow preparations to be made. Since the new councils will not exist before the election in 2014, this order makes provision for the statutory transition committees established by the Northern Ireland Executive to provide the advance of election expenses before the election, and for the new councils then to pay the balance of election expenses after the election.
Secondly, under usual circumstances the chief executive of each council serves as the deputy returning officer. However, the open competition being run for the chief executive positions in the new councils will not be completed sufficiently far in advance of the election for them to be appointed as deputy returning officers. The order therefore provides for the statutory transition committees to appoint deputy returning officers for the purposes of the 2014 elections, in consultation with the Electoral Commission. The Electoral Commission’s role is to help ensure that each committee appoints a person with sufficient experience to fulfil the role of deputy returning officer. For example, it may provide committees with advice on the role and functions of a deputy returning officer and the selection criteria used. It will not offer views on the merits of particular candidates.
Thirdly, as noble Lords are aware, the Northern Ireland Assembly agreed new wards for each local government district. The polling station scheme for local elections needs to reflect this new ward structure. This order therefore requires the chief electoral officer to prepare a new polling station scheme before the elections in 2014. The new scheme will be published after the Secretary of State lays an order before Parliament grouping the wards into district electoral areas.
The order also makes changes to polling districts and places for elections to the House of Commons, which are necessary in consequence of the changes made to local government boundaries. Currently, the polling districts and places for parliamentary elections are those established for local elections. When the chief electoral officer designs a polling station scheme for local elections, it will apply automatically to parliamentary elections. However, some of the new local government wards will fall between two parliamentary constituencies. As it will no longer be appropriate to maintain the link between parliamentary polling districts and local government wards, this order makes amendments to allow parliamentary polling districts to instead be designated by the Secretary of State, in consultation with the Electoral Commission.
The chief electoral officer will still designate polling places for parliamentary elections and will be required to carry out reviews of the polling places in 2014 and every five years thereafter. Such reviews will follow the same process as that followed by registration officers in Great Britain.
Baroness Blood (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said what I was thinking when I was listening to the Minister. This is a dog’s dinner. Working on the ground and trying to get young people interested in voting in Northern Ireland—it has mostly been older people who have voted—the different colours of ballot papers are hard to explain. I am most anxious that we are given time to explain and that this is not just put into the media or the paper and that is it. We will have to explain on the ground to young people, in particular, why this election is taking place and why we are working to the 2015 election and all that. Many people will get confused and think that they are voting for two lots of councillors. Knowing Northern Ireland as we do, that is a very distinct possibility.
I take up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, about who will police when the stations close. That can be a very dangerous situation in Northern Ireland. Has any thought been given to that?
Baroness Randerson
I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate and I will do my very best to address the major points that have been made. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, referred to the concept—
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
With apologies to the Minister, a Division has been called in the Chamber. The Grand Committee stands adjourned until 4.55 pm.
Baroness Randerson
I will resume with the meat of what I intended to say in response to noble Lords.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, referred to there being three classes of councillor. I refer the noble Lord to the description of the roles of those councillors. There are, in strict terms, three different positions, but there is no duplication of councillor roles, because councillors elected in 2014 can exercise functions only in relation to limited transitional issues before 1 April 2015. So there will be no duplication of roles, and statutory transition committees will cease to exist 28 days after the election. I can tell the noble Lord, from my own experience as a councillor in Wales in 1995—in a transitional council prior to local government reorganisation in 1996—that the transitional year was of tremendous value. It was extremely important in establishing the new councils on their road, and in enabling the old councils to fully wind up their work.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, also raised the issue of queuing outside polling stations, and of who will decide who is in the queue, and where the queue ends. This will very much be an issue for the Electoral Commission, which has a key role to play. In particular, it will develop guidance for electoral administrators, which is what will happen in the rest of the UK, although in most cases it will be obvious who is in the queue and who is not. However, all these provisions should not make us forget that the important thing is good electoral planning. The provisions exist because in the past there have been problems with the closure of polling stations, such as people being left standing outside.
I welcome the support of the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, on this. I believe that both he and the noble Lord, Lord Empey, raised the issue of two ballot boxes being open and the potential for confusion. I point out that the change of having the name on the top of the ballot papers will reduce potential confusion for electors, but there is always the situation where electors put their ballot papers in the wrong box. However, it may eventually be decided that ballot papers should all be put in the same box and sorted afterwards.
On the issue of the verification and counting process, observers and candidates for each election will be able to attend the verification and count of the other election to facilitate a joint verification process, if that is how it is decided to do it. Joint verification is facilitated, not prescribed. The timing of the verification process is very much an operational matter. It is a decision for the chief electoral officer. The purpose of this statutory instrument is to make provision to allow things to work as well as possible. The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, is correct: it will allow those able to view any proceedings for either the local or the European elections to access those of the other election, as I said just now.
The noble Lord, Lord Browne, referred to the new wards and the 12-week consultation period. The District Electoral Areas Commission is due to report before the end of the year to the Secretary of State, who will lay the order before Parliament as soon as possible after that. On the noble Lord’s comments about co-option and whether it will stop in 2015, that is not the case. This order makes no changes to the general process for filling vacancies. It only deals with vacancies arising during the transitional period.
The noble Baroness pointed to the possibility of confusion. That can always exist when you have two elections on the same day. Despite the names on top of the ballot papers, the different colours and so on, there is always the possibility of confusion. However, this is a matter for the Electoral Commission and the political parties. We encourage them to engage with electors to explain the situation and make it crystal clear. I take this opportunity to point out that we are very pleased with voter registration as a result of this canvass period. The target was to achieve 85% and they have already achieved 88.3%. In many ways, that is an all-time record. The completeness of the register suggests that more people will be in a position to exert their right to vote. That is very important for the democratic process.
I need to make a slight correction to my answer to the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. All EU observers can attend the local verification and the count. All local observers can attend the EU verification but not the count. That is probably explained because the count for the EU election will be held some time later. Of course, we are dealing with a very large area in that case.
I hope I have answered noble Lords’ queries satisfactorily. I will of course review the record to ensure that I have answered the substantive points as well as possible. I thank all noble Lords for their support.
Lord Empey
Perhaps I may refer the noble Baroness back to the issue of queues. A great deal of the problem has to do with the geography and where a polling station is located. Some are on the street and others are in more remote areas that have a large amount of land around them, whether that is in the form of steps, car parks, schools or whatever.
I have some anxieties about leaving this sensitive issue to the chief electoral officer. There was a case in 2001, I think, in Fermanagh in South Tyrone, where paramilitaries took over the polling station. They were voting well after the polling station was closed. With the polling station locked from the inside, they continued to vote. I am not making this up.
In remote areas where perhaps it is difficult for the police to function, depending on the geography, I still have an anxiety as to who will decide. Does a polling clerk, who is taken on for the day, come outside and say, “Right, mate, you are the last one. That’s it”? Who stays there to see that that person is the last one? Only the person who has decided that he should be the last one can verify when that last person comes into the polling station. I do not understand the mechanics of how this will work.
Perhaps the simplest thing is to know that if a polling station closes at 10 pm, that is it and there is no argument; you are either in or you are not. This business of queuing could be abused—that is my anxiety. I am not sure who will ensure that that does not happen.
Baroness Randerson
The noble Lord raises a significant point. He is right to raise it because the experience of the last general election showed that there were queues in certain places and that the approach of the polling clerks differed from one place to another. That is why these regulations were brought forward. They are intended to address that issue—which has not been addressed in the past—and are backed up by the fact that the Electoral Commission will issue guidance relating to these regulations. It will be for the Electoral Commission, having issued the guidance, and for the deputy returning officers, having provided training to polling clerks, to ensure that the guidance is rolled out smoothly.
As with every election in the UK, the police will provide back-up support if there are difficult situations to handle, and the PSNI will do this in the usual way, as it has always done.
Local Elections (Northern Ireland) Order 2013
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Baroness Randerson
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Local Elections (Northern Ireland) Order 2013.
Relevant document: 12th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.