Welsh Government: Fracking

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Thursday 22nd January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with the Welsh Government regarding the devolution of powers over fracking for gas on land.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, in November 2014 my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales announced a programme of work to seek a political consensus on the way forward for devolution and to provide a stable settlement for Wales. This work is underpinned by discussions with Welsh party leaders, including the First Minister of Wales, the right honourable Carwyn Jones AM.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, may I interpret that Answer as an indication that we can look forward to a Statement being made by the Secretary of State on St David’s Day to indeed confirm a transfer of responsibility for fracking to Wales? Since the Government have their own amendment to the Infrastructure Bill, Amendment 86, on Report in the House of Commons on Monday, removing Scotland from the provisions of that Bill concerning the right to use deep-level land for fracking, why is there not a similar amendment for Wales, if that is indeed the direction in which the Government are going? Will the Minister link up with the department today to see whether it is possible, even at this late stage, to table such an amendment?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord should take into account the process that is under way. The Secretary of State has set great store by the fact that he wants to achieve political consensus across the four parties in Wales. The Welsh Government are involved, of course, and they have made it clear what their views are on the need to offer powers to the Welsh Government if they have been offered to Scotland. However, what is right for Scotland is not necessarily always right for Wales, and discussions are still ongoing.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, within 10 miles of my home in Gresford in north Wales—its second mention this morning—there were in 1866 some 21 shale oil extraction plants, selling petrol at three shillings and four pence per gallon. Two years later it had fallen to 10 pence a gallon and the industry was completely wrecked. Is Welsh shale oil as sound a basis for Welsh independence—which 3% of the people of Wales want, including the noble Lord—as, for example, North Sea oil is for Scotland?

[Baroness Randerson]

My noble friend illustrates the volatility of energy prices, then as now. From current reports, the potential for significant amounts of shale gas in Wales is unclear. However, I agree with my noble friend: the recent big falls in the oil price have illustrated the shaky financial foundations on which the Scottish independence campaign was based.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, forgive me, but I did not quite follow the first Answer of the noble Baroness. Have there been discussions on the devolution of powers over fracking for gas on land—yes or no?

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, there are four parts to the ongoing discussions. One of them relates to the Smith proposals, and which of those proposals would refer to Wales appropriately. Those discussions include the issue of fracking. In relation to Wales, the conversations are ongoing.

Government of Wales Act 2006 (Amendment) Order 2015

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 20th January 2015 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

That the draft order laid before the House on 5 November 2014 be approved.

Relevant document: 13th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Considered in Grand Committee on 13 January.

Motion agreed.

Government of Wales Act 2006 (Amendment) Order 2015

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 13th January 2015 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Government of Wales Act 2006 (Amendment) Order 2015.

Relevant document: 13th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the draft order laid before the House on 5 November 2014 now be considered. I will provide noble Lords with a brief summary of what it seeks to achieve. The UK Government are making this order at the request of the Welsh Government. The National Assembly for Wales is currently considering legislation relating to sustainable development in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Bill. The stated intentions of the Bill are to enhance the sustainable development duty on Welsh Ministers and to make sustainable development the central organising principle of the Welsh Government and of other public bodies in Wales exercising devolved functions.

However, Section 79 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 already imposes a duty on Welsh Ministers in relation to sustainable development. To avoid Welsh Ministers being subject to two separate duties, the Welsh Government wish to be able to amend Section 79. Currently, the Assembly does not have the legislative competence to do so. As a result, the UK Government have agreed to use the power under Section 109 of the Government of Wales Act that allows Her Majesty, by Order in Council, to amend Schedule 7 to that Act and thus confer the required competence upon the Assembly.

If passed, this order will enable the Assembly to amend Section 79 of GOWA, which in turn would allow the Welsh Ministers’ obligations to be aligned with the duties contained in the Bill. Section 79 was created in GOWA in 2006, when only executive competence existed in Welsh devolution. Following the referendum in Wales in 2011, the Assembly obtained full legislative competence for the subjects in Schedule 7 to the Government of Wales Act. This order therefore reflects the evolution of Welsh devolution since 2006. Section 109 requires the order to be approved not only by both Houses of Parliament but also by the National Assembly for Wales. The order was approved by the House of Commons on 15 December, and the debate in the Assembly is expected to take place on 20 January.

I believe that this order demonstrates the UK Government’s continued commitment to work constructively with the Welsh Government to achieve an effective devolution settlement for Wales. I hope that noble Lords will agree that this order is a sensible use of the power in Section 109 and that the practical result is something to be welcomed. I commend the order to the Committee.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I rise to ask for clarification from the Minister. I do not think that many people would want to block the order, because it seems a patently sensible thing to do—but if the House did not pass this order, it would be a case of the unelected Peers blocking the wishes of both the elected House of Commons and the elected National Assembly for Wales. That strikes me as a rather unsatisfactory position to be in—albeit that the powers are being used in this instance with a recommendation and to move forward.

Secondly, the Minister said that the Assembly is “currently considering legislation”. I assume that those words were carefully used. Does that mean that the Assembly is currently considering legislation outside its powers? Are there issues that arise from that possibility? Is it outside its competence? If that is the case, are we asking for powers for retrospective action in order to put right something that has already been carried or debated, possibly outwith the Assembly’s powers? All these areas need clarification to avoid any instance arising, perhaps in circumstances more contentious than this. The objective of this order is probably acceptable to everyone, but one can imagine circumstances where that might not be the case and where there could be great difficulties.

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[Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for outlining the changes proposed. When the National Assembly for Wales was established, it was one of the first legislatures in the world to have sustainable development as a duty within its founding principles.

The Welsh Assembly has already established a reputation as a pioneer in the area of sustainability. It successfully introduced a 5p charge for carrier bags in 2011—a brave yet successful move that has led to a 76% drop in bag usage. In fact, you feel very guilty going to the shops today in Wales if you do not carry a reusable bag. This legislation is being copied by other legislative bodies across the UK. Charging for plastic bags is just one symbol of what can be done in the area of sustainability. Recycling rates have rocketed in Wales and there is a commitment to encourage public bodies to buy local food.

The Welsh Government are currently required to promote sustainable development in their policies and to produce a scheme on how this will be achieved. Wales retained the independent commissioner role when the UK Government decided to end the UK Sustainable Development Commission and has since established the post of Commissioner for Sustainable Futures, ably and competently led by Peter Davies and supported by a strong team in Cynnal Cymru.

However, it is clear that embedding sustainability as the central organising principle when it comes to policy development and delivery at Welsh Government level has not occurred to the extent that was hoped. It is generally agreed that there is a need to strengthen the procedures and governance structures to ensure that sustainability is seen not just as a reporting process but a central theme in policy development. On top of that, it is worth noting that the duty to act sustainably applies only to the Welsh Government and does not have any traction across the wider public sector. To that end, the Welsh Government have introduced a Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Bill. Ambitious it may be, but there is nothing wrong with ambition.

Whether they give it the kind of resources that may be necessary is obviously a matter for the Assembly. That Bill is due to be agreed, as I understand it, in the spring of this year. It will establish a new statutory sustainable development body with legal powers. It will also ensure that not just Assembly bodies but wider public sector organisations make progress to contribute to the well-being of a sustainable Wales. In addition, the new Bill will be in step with global developments being aligned to the UN process of establishing global sustainable development goals, which will be set this year and will apply to all nations.

We therefore wholeheartedly agree to the request to allow the National Assembly of Wales to amend Schedule 7 to the Government of Wales Act 2006, which will enable the Assembly to make modifications to Section 79, relating to sustainable development. It is important that this right is given to allow amendments to ensure that the new legislation does not simply add a layer of requirements on government but will contribute to the formation of a holistic, clear framework that does not duplicate but builds on the experience of applying the original requirement of sustainable development in the Government of Wales Act.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I strongly welcome the support that there has been for the concept behind the order before us today. I remind noble Lords that it is of course our job to facilitate the Bill that several noble Lords have referred to, rather than to discuss the Bill itself—but I will of course answer noble Lords’ questions.

The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, referred to the unelected nature of this House, which is something that might divide opinion here. I entirely understand his comments but will say to him that there is considerable expertise in the House—a lot of it in relation to Wales—gathered here this afternoon. We have a very valuable role to perform in scrutinising legislation, and it is important that we continue to take that role very seriously.

The noble Lord asked whether the Bill was currently outside the competence of the Assembly. What we are doing is enabling the Welsh Government to bring forward an amendment that would allow them to change their competence. The Bill, as it currently stands before and is being discussed by the Assembly, is within its competence. The Welsh Government want to amend it to extend the competence very slightly—I emphasise “very slightly” because this is marginal. The noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, referred to that very point in his comments.

There was a previous order in 2010, and indeed one in 2007, when the second Government of Wales Act came in. However, like the noble Lord, I hope that we will get to a reserved powers position soon and that that will create a tidier devolution settlement that will make such orders unnecessary in future. However, whether or not we have to pass another order like this is entirely up to the Welsh Government. This is being done at their request, and if they identify in any other legislation that they are taking through at the moment that they need those additional powers, or a change in powers, it will behove us to facilitate that and to enable it to happen by passing these orders through both Houses.

The noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, said the Bill was ambitious. I will point out that the Assembly has always been ahead of the curve on sustainability, because when it was established it was given a sustainability duty, which was exceptional at that time. The noble Lord also asked about costs. There are already local service boards that will fulfil much the same functions, although they do not have the sustainable development duty in the same way as is proposed now, so the costs might not be as great as one might assume. Having said that, this issue is not for us but for the Assembly.

My noble friend Lady Humphreys asked about the stage the Bill is at. It is currently at stage two of the scrutiny process in the National Assembly and is expected to be completed in March. The noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, asked about the Wales Sustainable Development Charter, which all sectors can sign up to and adopt. It follows the principles of sustainable development and currently there are private/public and third sector signatories to it.

The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, expressed concern about the resources involved. Once again I say to noble Lords that this is an issue for the Welsh Government and the Assembly. The 2006 Act was indeed passed in a different context, and I would point out to the noble Lord that the reason the section has to be amended by this order is a hangover from the days when the Assembly had only executive powers and did not have legislative competence. The Wales Act 2014, which we have just passed, does not affect this directly and it is hoped that, assuming we move as this Government intend—and for which we have support across the House—to a reserved powers model, there will be a fresh start with a clearer set of powers for the Assembly.

The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, pointed out the interesting culture change we have all undergone in Wales as a result of the 5p plastic bag charge. Over the Christmas Recess I found myself explaining to some friends in England how extraordinary that culture change has been. It is a small but very important example of the importance of ambition for sustainability —but, once again, our job here is to facilitate that ambition by enabling the Welsh Government to amend the Bill so that they can promote the responsibility and the duty towards sustainability rather than observe it. I commend the order to the Committee.

Motion agreed.

Stormont House Agreement

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Wednesday 7th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made earlier today by my right honourable friend Theresa Villiers, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. The Statement is as follows.

“I would like to make a Statement on the political talks in Northern Ireland which culminated in the Stormont House Agreement on 23 December. When I last updated the House after the visit to Belfast of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach, Enda Kenny, I reported that 10 weeks of talks had so far failed to deliver consensus on any of the key issues. I made clear that the stakes over the coming days were high and that without an agreement before Christmas we were unlikely to get so close again for months, or even years.

Further intensive discussions duly took place on Wednesday 17 December and continued on Thursday and Friday of that week. Resuming on Monday 22 December, negotiations continued overnight, concluding some 30 hours later at around lunchtime on the 23rd. At that stage, we presented the parties with a final heads of agreement, reflecting many weeks of discussion and with the input of both the UK and Irish Governments, in accordance with the three-stranded approach. Key issues covered included the finances of the Stormont Executive, reform of the devolved institutions, and the legacy issues of flags, parading and the past. I will take each in turn.

The agreement sets a path for the Executive to put their finances on a sustainable footing for the future, averting the impending budget crisis which was threatening the stability and credibility of the devolved institutions. That includes the implementation of welfare reform, with certain agreed adaptations paid for out of the Northern Ireland block grant, alongside efficiency measures and reforms to the public sector. Measures to improve the way the devolved institutions work, including provision for an official Opposition, a reduction in the number of government departments, and a cut in the number of MLAs by 2021 are also part of the agreement. A commission on flags, identity and culture is to be established by June and, based on the party leader discussions in the summer, proposals are set out by the Government which open the way for a devolved system of adjudicating on parades, to replace the Parades Commission.

Crucially, the agreement also sets out broad-ranging new structures to deal with the legacy of Northern Ireland’s past. These include an oral history archive, a new historical investigations unit to look at the deaths that occurred as a result of the Troubles, and an independent commission for information retrieval established by the UK and Irish Governments. All of these bodies are required to operate in a fair, balanced, proportionate, transparent and accountable way, preventing any group or strand of opinion from being able to subvert the process or try to rewrite history.

The new system puts the needs of victims and survivors centre stage and has reconciliation as a key goal. Consensus on how to deal with Northern Ireland’s past has eluded successive Governments since the Belfast agreement was signed 17 years ago, so the significance of the progress which has been achieved should not be underestimated. The Government have agreed to contribute £150 million over five years to help fund the structures dealing with the past, meaning that the PSNI can devote its efforts to policing the present rather than the past. That funding forms part of a wider package of significant financial support from the Government amounting to £2 billion of additional spending power. That is made up of a combination of new funding and important flexibilities in relation to existing resources and it is targeted at Northern Ireland’s specific circumstances—the legacy of its past, its divided society and its overdependence on the public sector.

Last, but certainly not least, the agreement paves the way for legislation to devolve the power to set the rate of corporation tax for Northern Ireland. A Bill will be presented to the House shortly for First Reading. If the Stormont parties press ahead on agreeing their final budget and on delivering welfare reform legislation, the Government will use all their best endeavours to get the legislation on to the statute book before Dissolution. The parties in Northern Ireland have made it clear that corporation tax devolution can help them to rebalance the economy and attract investment because of Northern Ireland’s unique position of having a land border with the Republic of Ireland. I welcome the fact that it is this Government who are delivering that momentous and transformative change, subject to the important conditions contained in the agreement, and I call on the Opposition today to commit to supporting the Bill as a key part of the Stormont House agreement.

The agreement involves compromise on all sides. It is fair and balanced and it has been widely welcomed. First Minister Peter Robinson hailed it as “a momentous step forward”. Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness described it as “a remarkable achievement”, and,

“a fresh start we need to seize with both hands”.

President Obama said that Northern Ireland’s political leaders have shown that,

“there is a way to succeed for the benefit of all”,

and Secretary of State Kerry called their actions “statesmanship, pure and simple”. But securing an agreement is not the end point—far from it. There is much work ahead on implementation for the Executive, for the UK Government and, where appropriate, for the Irish Government. However, I give this assurance: if the parties in the Executive press ahead on that, the Government will implement our side of the agreement and we will do it faithfully and fairly. There are no side deals.

In closing, I pay tribute to Minister Charlie Flanagan for his crucially important contribution to the process. I would also like to thank the US Administration, and in particular Secretary Kerry’s special representative, Gary Hart, for their support. I thank all the officials at the Northern Ireland Office who worked on this process. Above all, I would like to record my appreciation for the leadership provided by the five Northern Ireland Executive parties.

In the Government’s view, the Stormont House agreement represents a genuine and significant step forward for Northern Ireland, offering the prospect of real progress on some of the most intractable issues we face there—problems that have defied multiple attempts to resolve them over the years. The agreement gives the five parties in the devolved Executive the chance to refocus and work together with renewed confidence for a more prosperous, more stable, more united and more secure future for the people of Northern Ireland. I urge them to seize the opportunities it presents to build a brighter future for Northern Ireland, and I commend the agreement to the House”.

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[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I welcome the broad support of the noble Lord and, in particular, the appreciation he has expressed for all of those involved in this process and the statesmanship that has been shown. However, I have to say yet again in this House that I reject all notions that the Secretary of State and the UK Government have been in any way disengaged from the process. The Secretary of State has been involved throughout the past two years in the processes that have gone on to reach agreement.

What changed significantly was that in the summer the leaders of the political parties asked the Secretary of State to become directly involved. Prior to that they were having discussions and negotiations—and, indeed, slowly making progress—on these issues but had failed to reach an agreement. It is significant that 12 weeks of intense discussions and negotiations, led by the Secretary of State and with the involvement, where appropriate, of the Irish Government, have led to this important agreement.

I regret that the noble Lord has not given the full support of his party to the proposal to devolve corporation tax to Northern Ireland. The desire for this across the community in Northern Ireland appears to unite both the political parties and the business community. They believe it is a significant issue for their future prosperity.

The noble Lord asked me a number of questions and I fear that I may not have been able to take down the full details. Obviously, I will review the record and write to him if necessary. However, I emphasise that the Government are keen to get working on the issues and with the bodies associated with the past, but I should point out that this needs Westminster and Assembly legislation. In contrast, we would expect the work on flags to be up and running by June. We are expecting the Executive to introduce legislation relating to welfare reform this month.

The noble Lord also asked me about corporation tax and adjustments to the block grant. There will of course be adjustments but precise details will have to wait until we know the rate and the precise shape of the plans for the devolution of corporation tax. As there has been with the Scottish Government and the Welsh Government, there will be appropriate discussions with the devolved bodies prior to the devolution.

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[Baroness Randerson]

Perhaps I may first make clear to noble Lords that the additional funding is not £2 billion a year. It is £2 billion over a number of years in excess of five years. It is not £2 billion of additional money; it is £650 million of additional money over that period. The money beyond that is spending power associated with additional flexibilities granted for the Executive’s budget. The noble Lord asked about the efficiency of the public sector. The reforms that have taken place within the Civil Service and in the public sector generally in the rest of England, Scotland and Wales have not taken place to the same extent in Northern Ireland. Therefore, it is suffering from severe financial pressures. Those reforms need to take place. It is a condition of the additional funding that the Northern Ireland Executive embark on those reforms and we expect them to do that imminently.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I welcome the Statement. I trust we are moving forward and that deadline diplomacy has worked. As ever, it is sad that we have to consider so much about the past. In the 75 paragraphs in the Stormont House agreement, 40 refer to flags, parades and the past. I note that the agreement establishes six new bodies; namely, a commission on flags et cetera, an oral history archive, a mental trauma service, a historical investigations unit, an independent commission on information retrieval, and an implementation and reconciliation group. It would be splendid if these bodies took matters forward, but of course they do not come for free. The document suggests that £150 million will be available over five years to help with these new bodies. What will the total cost of the new bodies be?

In particular, I welcome paragraph 69 under the heading “Outstanding Commitments”, which makes it seem just an afterthought. It talks about,

“initiatives to facilitate and encourage shared and integrated education and housing”,

and matters such as social inclusion. If we are really to see integrated services in Northern Ireland, what cost savings does the Minister believe there will be? It will be interesting to note, on looking further into the past, the contrast between the costs that we may well have to expend and what can be achieved in the future if we are to see some real integration.

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord refers to the issues related to the past. As was made clear in the Statement, issues associated with the past in Northern Ireland are really the biggest factor that has eluded previous agreements. If this set of bodies proposed here are established and are able to work effectively, clearly considerable progress will have been made. Noble Lords will have noted that there are measures built into this to monitor progress; significant effort is being made to make sure that progress is monitored on a regular basis.

The overall cost of establishing those bodies is not of course precisely known. The £150 million in the agreement is the UK Government’s contribution to that cost but, since those bodies touch upon devolved issues, it is entirely reasonable and totally expected that the Northern Ireland Executive will contribute to their cost. Present arrangements are not necessarily working very well and cost money—so this is not entirely new money.

The noble Lord referred to the costs of division. He knows from his considerable experience that various estimates of the costs of the divided society in Northern Ireland have been made. They are variable, but they all show significant cost to that society every year.

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords—

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[Baroness O'Loan]

My Lords, thank you. I have four simple questions.

First, a number of cases are currently excluded under the Stormont House agreement from the work of the historical investigations unit. Those cases were previously investigated by the historic inquiries team. However, Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary has said that many of these investigations were most unsatisfactory. Can the British Government ensure that they will not be embarrassed in future because our Article 2 obligations are not being complied with?

Secondly, can the British Government and the Minister assure us that the Government will ensure that the historical investigations unit has access to all intelligence and information, particularly that held in this part of the United Kingdom by the security services, the Armed Forces and GCHQ?

Thirdly, what actions will the Government take to ensure that the historical investigations unit has the full legal powers that it needs?

Fourthly, does the £150 million have to provide for victims, or will they be provided for separately? On the matter of trauma services there is a massive unmet need in Northern Ireland: that is a costly and lengthy process.

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Baroness first asked a question relating to human rights obligations. I am sure that she has noted the reference to that in the agreement. There is an awareness by the UK Government, and indeed all those involved, of the need to ensure that the processes abide by human rights obligations. Therefore, there is work to be done, in particular by the Executive but also by the UK Government, to smooth that process.

In relation to access to intelligence information, and indeed access to information in general, the UK Government will of course ensure that the required information is made available, while balancing the need to ensure the safety of individuals, which is an obligation that is always the case in these situations. It is our intention that the bodies concerned will have the powers they need to do an effective and efficient job, particularly on a timescale satisfactory to those who suffered during the Troubles.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

Will the Minister confirm that the historical investigations unit will not be constrained from looking at any of the significant cases in the past? I could mention Ballymurphy and Finucane. Will it be able to look at those in the detail that it needs? Secondly, what is the relationship between the outcome of such investigations and the possibility that there might be recourse to the courts as a result?

[Baroness Randerson]

It is expected that when there is a need for recourse to the courts, obviously there will be police investigations and decisions by the DPP on whether to prosecute in the normal manner. There is certainly no concern about that process in our minds. I am sure the noble Lord will understand that there is work still to be done in ensuring that the detail is fully fleshed out with regard to the bodies outlined here. Your Lordships will see that although there is significant detail in the agreement and it has been well thought-through, obviously there is a lot of work still to do on the day-to-day way in which these bodies are to operate. It is expected that there will be a meeting later this month where work will progress further on the bodies suggested in the agreement.

[Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD)]

My Lords, £150 million is indeed a significant sum to deal with the past. But I ask my noble friend the Minister: if at the end of those five years significant inquiries are still to take place that have not been resolved, what will the Government do then?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Baroness refers to the timescale that we are envisaging. For example, we hope that the historical investigations unit will be able to complete its work in five years. The Government of the day will have to consider the situation at the end of that time. It will be for the Government of the day to make that decision.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, I was involved in the talks leading to the Belfast agreement and representatives of all political parties with elected Members were involved in those talks. Why on this occasion were the elected representatives of one-third of the Unionist voters excluded from the talks that led to this provisional agreement? Is that the basis on which to get all-party support in the future?

When it comes to corporation tax, I very much welcome the views expressed by the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. Of course businesses in Northern Ireland have welcomed the move because they will be paying less tax. But the Minister has confirmed—at last—that if the Northern Ireland Assembly reduces corporation tax in Northern Ireland, the block grant will be reduced. That will mean less for hospitals and education. It will be rejected by many people across Northern Ireland.

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord referred to the reduction in the block grant. That process is taking place with the devolution of other taxes. It is, of course, a decision that the Northern Ireland Executive would take in the light of their decision to pursue corporation tax devolution because the purpose behind pursuing it is to create a more prosperous society and to encourage the establishment of further businesses and further inward investment.

The noble Lord refers to the parties at the talks. I am sure that he is fully aware of the background details of how the talks developed over two years. It is therefore the case that the leaders who were there believed that at that time there was purpose in talking together.

[Lord Christopher]

My Lords, my question is extremely short. If I were a chief executive of a successful plc registered in London and corporation tax dropped to 12.5% in Belfast, as it is reasonable to assume, what reason would I give my shareholders for not moving my office to Belfast?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord raises a legitimate issue which the UK Government have considered and which I know the Northern Ireland Executive is bearing in mind, but it is something for the corporation tax Bill when it comes before this House.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, can the Minister give an assurance today that the proposed new historical investigations unit will not equate criminals and victims as coequals, that innocent victims will be afforded the respect and regard they deserve and that a clear distinction will always be maintained as the HIU takes forward its work?

[Baroness Randerson]

The historical investigations unit is being set up in a way which ensures that there will be cross-community support. I think that answers the point of the noble Lord’s question.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, when I chaired the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in another place, it became increasingly clear to us over the five years we were working that there had to come a time when a line was drawn. I ask my noble friend to bear that in mind in conversations with the Secretary of State. We have another five years, but we cannot have another five years after that and another five years after that. The people of Northern Ireland deserve to live in the future, not in the past.

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[Baroness Randerson]

While entirely supporting the final sentence of my noble friend’s comments, I ask him to bear in mind that it takes a very long period of time to turn around a society as divided as that of Northern Ireland.

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, on the issue of the past, I welcome the Minister’s explanation that there will be careful monitoring of the results produced by this process. In the light of Mr Adams’ statement a mere three weeks or so ago that the IRA had no corporate memory and therefore could not, in the context of the Maíria Cahill case, contribute in any meaningful way to the work of historical recovery, it is slightly difficult to see how we can have, in the words of the Statement by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, a process which is “balanced, proportionate, transparent and accountable”.

One hundred and fifty million pounds is a lot of money. It is 20% of the amount allotted for the Northern Ireland Civil Service early retirement scheme. The taxpayer is entitled to reassurance that there will be careful monitoring of this process and that for this £150 million there will be something approaching a real, balanced process. This cost is proportionately far more than the historical aspects of the Bloody Sunday inquiry, which is reputed to be so highly expensive.

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord points out the complexities of dealing with the range of issues that this agreement covers. The number of bodies being set up is significant. They fulfil a whole range of functions. It is intended that one of them should be established as an international body. It is intended that some of them operate completely independently of political representatives. Others do not, but there is always that balance when there is elected political representation.

It is important to bear in mind that the agreement makes provision for an implementation and reconciliation group to oversee the bodies and the work being done on the past. It is important to bear in mind also that the British and Irish Governments and the Northern Ireland Executive are committed to regular, six-monthly monitoring meetings to ensure that things are proceeding in the fair, balanced and transparent manner that I mentioned.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

While understanding the particular circumstances in Northern Ireland, does not my noble friend think that there is a danger in this piecemeal constitutional reform? For example, what are we to say as unionists to the nationalists in Scotland who are demanding corporation tax powers on the grounds that it will help their economy when my noble friend is justifying corporation tax in Northern Ireland being set on precisely the same basis? Should we not be careful in moving forward with devolution that we do so on a basis that is balanced and clearly thought through? Is not my noble friend’s answer that she is not yet able to tell us what the effect on the block grant would be deeply worrying in the context of further devolution of tax powers?

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[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord points out that there is of course an inevitable read-across from one devolved nation to another. That is something that we are all very conscious of in relation to both Wales and Scotland. I should point out the one unique feature in relation to Northern Ireland: Northern Ireland shares a land border with the Republic of Ireland, which has a very much lower rate of corporation tax. Therefore, competition to attract business is very much more intense for Northern Ireland than it is for Scotland, Wales and England. It is important to bear in mind that unique position.

Northern Ireland: Talks Process

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Monday 15th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to repeat as a Statement the Answer given to an Urgent Question in the other place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. The Statement is as follows.

“I am grateful for the opportunity to update the House on the cross-party talks which have been taking place in Stormont over the past nine weeks. In September, the Government concluded that the time was right for a fresh round of political discussions to be convened with the parties in the Northern Ireland Executive. The Irish Government reached the same conclusion.

The aim was to address some key issues which are hindering the effectiveness and credibility of devolution and the Stormont Executive. These included: welfare reform and the Executive’s budget; the so-called legacy issues of flags, parading and the past; and reform of the political institutions. The talks began at Stormont House on 16 October.

As a signatory to the Belfast agreement, the Irish Government have been fully involved in all those matters where they too have responsibilities, consistent with the three-stranded approach, which means that the internal arrangements for Northern Ireland are a matter for the UK Government and the parties.

I would like to take this opportunity to put on record my thanks for the positive and constructive role played throughout by the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs, Charlie Flanagan TD, and his team of officials. In addition, I am very grateful for the support and wise counsel of my honourable friend the Member for South West Wiltshire, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Northern Ireland Office. The US Government have also been supportive and closely engaged with this process, in particular through Secretary of State Kerry’s representative, Senator Gary Hart. So far around 90 hours of formal talks have taken place.

My right honourable friend the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach, Enda Kenny TD, have been closely following the whole nine-week process, and on Thursday they joined the discussions directly. They conducted an intensive round of talks with the Executive parties and I would like to thank both of them for their support, perseverance and ongoing commitment to the process.

Despite their efforts, by early Friday they made a realistic assessment that there was still insufficient consensus across the parties for a broadly based agreement to be reached. Shortly afterwards, all five Executive parties declared their firm intention to continue to strive for a deal. They asked me and Minister Flanagan to take part in a resumption of discussions on Friday afternoon, which we duly did.

Let me briefly set out to the House the outline of a deal put on the table on Thursday. A draft heads of agreement was tabled including a fresh approach to the past which puts the needs of victims and survivors at its heart, devolved arrangements for adjudicating on parades that would see the Parades Commission replaced by a new authority and reforms to the institutions such as support for those parties that might want to form an opposition within the Assembly.

The draft also sought a commitment from the Executive to press ahead with welfare reform though with a number of flexibilities to reflect Northern Ireland’s circumstances and to implement a serious efficiency programme to make long-term savings in the costs of government. This draft was the result of the work of both the UK and Irish Governments respecting the three-stranded approach and we believe that it represents a balanced package and a sound basis for cross-party agreement.

During the evening, the Prime Minister also set out proposals to provide further financial assistance from the UK Government. This included flexibilities which would have given the Executive nearly £1 billion of extra spending power to help them through their current difficulties and support their most important priorities. It would also allow the devolution of corporation tax to go ahead—a change which just a few years ago seemed inconceivable and undeliverable is now within the grasp of Northern Ireland’s leaders, if they choose to take it.

The talks resume this week and the stakes are high. All parties agree that if there is no agreement before Christmas, we will not get this close again for months or even years. In particular, failure to agree a balanced final budget would leave the Executive increasingly unable to conduct even ordinary day-to-day business effectively, so this week is crucial.

All of us have a responsibility to do whatever we can in the few days left to us. The UK Government have shown that they can compromise, even over hugely sensitive and difficult issues regarding Northern Ireland’s past and even when resources are constrained by the need to deal with the deficit. We will continue to do all that we can to deliver agreement within the financial constraints in which we are operating.

However, the UK and Irish Governments can only do so much. Ultimately, whether an overall agreement is reached is down to Northern Ireland’s political leaders. They have a chance to show that, once again, they can move Northern Ireland forwards towards a better future, where politics works, the economy grows and society is stronger and more united. This is the prize on offer, and I know that all participants in the talks will have the support and good will of the House in our continuing efforts to seize it”.

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[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I think it is absolutely unacceptable to suggest that the Secretary of State has been anything less than totally dedicated to these talks. The Secretary of State has personally worked on this very strongly every week since October and has made every effort to ensure that the talks are successful. The Prime Minister has remained very closely in touch.

I remind the House that there is a very strong imperative here to reach agreement. The prize, as was pointed out in the Statement, is the devolution of corporation tax. It is a fact of life that this Government are drawing to a close with the coming election. To get legislation through Parliament in time for the end of our business, with the election coming, it is essential that the agreement on corporation tax is made virtually immediately. Therefore, the Prime Minister’s efforts are concentrated in time to enable this agreement to take place in a way that enables devolution of corporation tax to be effective.

The noble Lord is very accurate in his comments on the impact on day-to-day services in Northern Ireland. He mentions the PSNI, but if there is no agreement on the budget it goes across the board. I urge the parties in Northern Ireland to redouble their efforts, because it is essential that they reach agreement so that day-to-day services can continue to be delivered.

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

I thank my noble friend for repeating the Statement, to which I listened carefully. However, given that the Statement says that the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach judged that there was insufficient consensus for a broadly based agreement and that there is only one week in which to find any agreement, one is led to the conclusion that the best to be hoped for is for something to be cobbled together that could take us to the other side of the Westminster election, when the numbers of people elected, the balance of parties and coalitions and so on may be different.

However, I am struck by the fact that the Statement says:

“If there is no agreement before Christmas”—

a week away—

“we will not get this close”,

not for a few weeks but,

“for months or even years”.

One might take from that that there was an expectation on the part of the Government that we might be moving towards direct rule. Can the Minister confirm that before there could be any movement towards direct rule, there would have to be an election for a new Assembly in Northern Ireland, to give newly elected Members the opportunity to get into negotiations and to try to form a Government?

Secondly, can she confirm that if that were not achieved and there was direct rule, that there would be implementation—“press ahead” was the phrase used—of welfare reform, and, in the words of the Statement, the implementation of,

“a serious efficiency programme to make long-term savings”?

Can she confirm, too, that the Irish Government would have to be involved in all the cross-border bodies that are already in existence and—without doubt, given that the security situation would be likely to suffer—cross-border co-operation on security and justice issues as well?

It is important not just to pose these questions but to get an answer, because I have the sense that on both sides in Northern Ireland there is a failure to recognise the process that would ensue from lack of agreement, and the consequences for people from both sides in terms of welfare reform, efficiency savings and cross-border co-operation between the British and Irish Governments.

[Baroness Randerson]

My noble friend makes some important points about the process to be followed. I start by saying that the agreement needs to be genuine, and not something cobbled together, because that would fall apart. My noble friend is right to point out that the Statement clearly says that the window of opportunity will close in the new year. The realities of the time in the electoral cycle make it difficult. If the Executive were to collapse, the first and immediate result of that would be an election, and only if we were unable to re-establish an Executive would it be possible to think of direct rule. There is no legislation in place for the re-imposition of direct rule. If direct rule were, very regrettably, the eventual outcome, it would have to be in accordance with the terms of the Belfast agreement. My noble friend is right to point out that there is a role for the Irish Government in those terms.

[Lord Maginnis of Drumglass (Ind UU)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for bringing the Statement to the House. She hit the nail on the head when she talked about returning to the Belfast agreement. That was in 1998, and since then we have had little more than tokenism as far as Westminster is concerned. Let me reiterate what the noble Lord said earlier. We have no hands-on direct involvement between Northern Ireland and the Palace of Westminster despite the fact that we are part of the United Kingdom. The Prime Minister arriving without any consultation that I am aware of with anyone who went through the entire talks process from 1994 to 1998—in fact, it was even longer than that—and a Secretary of State who has been negligent in her liaison with those who have experience not only of the political problems but of the terrorist problems that we suffered in Northern Ireland for 28 years, is quite ridiculous. We cannot assume that a 24-hour or 48-hour visit will have the slightest impact on the problems we face or on building confidence between two sections of the community which are still sadly—

[Lord Maginnis of Drumglass]

I thought that the noble Baroness might say that. Thank you.

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord refers to a lack of hands-on involvement by the UK Government. I would point out to noble Lords that that is what happens when you abide by the terms of the devolution agreement. If Northern Ireland is to recover from its past, it is essential that the politicians and the structures of Northern Ireland be allowed to bed in, to develop and grow, and to work. It is important to bear in mind that we have now had the longest period of devolution in Northern Ireland since the 1960s, and the success of that period should be acknowledged.

Wales Bill

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Monday 24th November 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

1: Clause 13, page 18, line 35, at end insert—
“(1A) A resolution moved under subsection (1)(a) must state whether the voting age at the proposed referendum is to be 16 or 18.”

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, during the passage of the Wales Bill through this House, many noble Lords pointed to the numbers of young people who registered to vote in the recent referendum in Scotland as a great example of how young people want to get involved in the political process. Noble Lords also expressed the opinion that it would therefore be unfair for young people in Wales to be treated differently from their counterparts in Scotland in the referendum on income tax powers for which this Bill provides. I therefore committed on Report to bring forward amendments at Third Reading to allow the Assembly to decide whether 16 and 17 year-olds should be able to vote in an income tax referendum.

These government amendments provide that when a resolution to hold a referendum on income tax powers is moved in the Assembly, the Assembly must state, as part of that resolution, whether the voting age is to be 16 or 18 for that referendum. Let me be clear: we are not devolving the competence over the franchise in Wales to the Assembly. The franchise will remain solely within the power of Parliament. What we are doing is allowing the Assembly to make a decision in relation to an income tax referendum provided for under this Bill.

The amendments set out that if the Assembly resolves that the voting age in the referendum is to be 16, the resulting order to be laid by the Secretary of State must also provide for the creation and maintenance of a register of young voters. Many 17 year-olds will already be on the register of local government electors as attainers; that is, those who would reach the age of 18 before the creation of the next register, each 1 December. They would not be moved onto this new register of young voters but would still be able to vote in the referendum. This is because eligibility is based on being on either the register of young voters or the register of local government electors. In short, if, come the day of the referendum, the only thing that would stop you from voting in an Assembly election on that day is that you are 16 or 17, you would be eligible to vote in the referendum.

Of course, the voting age at an income tax referendum would be a matter for the Assembly to decide on when it triggers the referendum. At the moment, the Welsh Government have yet even to commit to holding such a referendum. I again urge Welsh Ministers to do so at the earliest opportunity. I have made no secret of the fact that I personally believe that lowering the voting age might help to reinvigorate our democracy. Many of those who spoke in the Assembly debate on this issue on 24 September also support reducing the voting age and would hope that, if and when the time finally comes to hold a trigger vote, Assembly Members will look at how much the debate on the Scottish referendum was invigorated by the number of 16 and 17 year-olds who became involved and would vote therefore accordingly. I therefore ask noble Lords to support these amendments. I beg to move.

[Lord Tyler (LD)]

My Lords, I am delighted to speak in support of Amendments 1 and 2, which I and my colleagues have signed. I want to pay tribute to my noble friend the Minister and her officials for the patience, persistence and professional care with which they have managed to perfect these proposals after so much discussion and improvement in meetings since I first raised the issue at an early stage of our consideration of the Bill. I am confident that we are now well on our way towards this timely reform. I cannot believe that anyone in the other place, or indeed anywhere else, will stand in its way. It would surely be a brave reactionary—even a foolhardy one—who would now claim that Welsh young people are less mature, well informed and well intentioned than their Scottish counterparts.

I have heard mutters that this is the thin end of the wedge. That is not so. The wedge was firmly implanted by the record number of 16 and 17 year-olds who not only registered to vote in their thousands, but then on 18 September ignored the blandishments of the separatists and voted to stay in the United Kingdom. We should recall that all UK parties endorsed the Edinburgh agreement which introduced this simple reform. I observed during the Report stage of this Bill:

“It would surely be constitutionally improper, in what has now been reinforced as a United Kingdom, to differentiate between the basic civic rights and duties of citizens here, simply on their area of residence. If, as I believe, the franchise is the foundation stone of our representative democracy, discrimination on that basis must surely be totally unacceptable”.—[Official Report, 11/11/14; col. 158.]

As my noble friend said, it will now be for the Welsh Assembly to complete the process. I am sure that this will prove uncontroversial since a substantial majority of Assembly Members have already declared their support. In the debate of 24 September, to which my noble friend referred, the Conservative spokesperson, Andrew Davies AM, said that:

“My group has a free vote on this particular issue, because there is no party line on whether there should be votes for 16 and 17-year-olds”.

Julie Morgan AM from the Labour Party said that it was encouraging and quite inspiring to see 16 and 17 year-olds involved in the Scottish referendum. The debate was led by my Liberal Democrat colleagues in the Assembly, who committed themselves there and subsequently, but perhaps even more significant was that the Minister, Jane Hutt AM, said that,

“we support the lowering of the voting age to 16”.

The outcome of that debate, held just two months ago and just after the Scottish vote, was 41 to 11 in favour of this reform. It is now surely unthinkable that any future referendum with equally long-term implications for the country and its citizens could be permitted to lapse back into the pre-2014 limited franchise. Whether that is on UK membership of the EU or any similar major decision, these young people have now earned the right to have their say.

This is a triumph for those who have worked so hard for so long to achieve this reform. The recent Youth Select Committee deserves special mention for its authoritative report, published just a few days ago, which carefully weighs the arguments. But the final and conclusive credit must go to the 110,000 young people in Scotland who showed by their actions that they were ready to take on this responsibility as fully adult citizens of the United Kingdom. I am delighted to support my noble friend.

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[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con)]

I am sorry. The noble Lord should speak only once in this debate and we have not dealt with the amendment yet.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, and indeed throughout the numerous debates we have had on the Bill. My noble friend Lord Tyler started his response on this amendment by pointing out that all parties endorsed the agreement that led to votes at 16 in Scotland. I make it clear that I strongly appreciate the work that my noble friend has done over a very long period to raise awareness of, and develop a campaign generally on, votes at 16.

The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, made the point that he would have preferred there to be wider powers for votes at 16, but he will understand that this question is best considered as part of the devolution of further powers to the Assembly, which is something which is being considered at this time, with a view to agreement and announcements by St David’s Day. He also asked about the precedent for future referenda. These amendments deal with the referenda provided for in the Bill. There are no further referenda planned in Wales. I point out to the noble Lord that the Welsh Government have not yet committed to this referendum. My view is that we should get this one out of the way first before thinking of further referenda.

My noble friend Lord Crickhowell referred to the ad hoc approach on this. I believe that our general approach to the devolution of further powers for the Assembly overcomes this problem. The noble Lords, Lord Cormack and Lord Empey, also referred to the way in which the decisions were being made on votes at 16. There has been a response to the success of the votes at 16 in Scotland. There will be a full analysis of the impact of that in due course, but the success in Scotland has certainly sparked debate. Given the points that the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, made about the way in which we make constitutional decisions in this country, it is important that there is considerable public debate on this. One could say that that debate has started in Wales, in general terms, with the debate that was held in the Assembly in which an overwhelming majority of Assembly Members supported votes at 16.

The important thing is that the Wales Office and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales are leading on the four-party discussions, in which the options for the future of devolution in Wales are being considered—the reserved powers model and the scope of any additional powers. That will include, for example, the devolution of powers over election arrangements. I believe that we are embarking on a period of considerable reflection and debate on the nature of our democracy in the UK as a whole, but we have already taken steps to ensure that that debate takes place in Wales. In line with the commitment made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister on 19 September, we have made sure that Wales is at the heart of the debate on devolution.

My noble friend Lord Crickhowell asked two questions. One was related to the Electoral Commission’s concern about time constraints. I point out to him that the detail in the amendment ensures that time would be available in practice to assemble the electoral register required. The details in the amendment are based on a franchise Act of the Scottish Parliament. The Bill, as amended, will allow for 180 days for the Secretary of State to lay the order, plus the time that it would take to pass through both Houses of Parliament and the Assembly. There would be a pre-election period as well. If one takes all those periods of time together, they come to approximately seven months, which is the time that the Electoral Commission recommends for new legislation of this type. We believe that there is sufficient time to amass the register as required. My noble friend also asked about resources for awareness raising and so on. I assure him that we are well aware of the resource implications of this.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

On that point, clearly local authorities are subject to considerable constraints. To be “well aware” of the resource implications begs many questions, such as: what are the resource implications? What discussions have there been already with the relevant authorities and are the Government satisfied that this can be done without taking on any extra staff?

[Baroness Randerson]

I did not say to the noble Lord that this would be possible without taking on additional staff. It is important that the views of the Electoral Commission have been communicated to noble Lords because it is obviously involved in the discussions. The Assembly has made its views very clear on this and there are resource implications from its perspective as well because, as several noble Lords have made clear today, it is important to bear in mind that there has to be a period of awareness raising and education as well as the sheer issue of assembling a register.

[Lord Elis-Thomas (PC)]

The Minister is absolutely right. The National Assembly has resources in the Assembly Commission to promote its own activity, promote democracy generally and promote a particular referendum as we did prior to the previous referendum, which ensured that we have now proper law-making powers. I am certain that the present Assembly Commission will take the same positive view. Indeed, at an event that was part organised by the Assembly Commission last week, a vote was taken on this matter by young people. The young people were in a majority—a small majority—for generally reducing the voting age to 16.

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord brings information from the front line, if I can put it that way, in far more detail than I could have provided to your Lordships. The noble Lords, Lord Rowlands and Lord Richard, asked detailed questions about the numbers of young people who voted in Scotland and the turnout. The turnout of 16 and 17 year-olds was remarkably high. It is my recollection that it was slightly lower than among the older sections of the population but it was remarkably high. I refer noble Lords to the fact that the Electoral Commission is, at this moment, undertaking a detailed study of the impact of the votes of 16 and 17 year-olds in Scotland. That report will be published in the relatively near future and I would recommend it as very important reading for those of us who are interested in these issues.

[Lord Rowlands]

Can the Minister tell us how many 16 and 17 year-olds there are?

[Baroness Randerson]

I will have to write to the noble Lord on that issue because if I were to venture a figure, I fear I might mislead him, and it is important that I am completely accurate on that.

My noble friend Lord Roberts asked about the further devolution of the rail franchise announced last week. His question pointed to the difference between Wales and Scotland in the nature of their borders. He referred to the fact that the rail line between north Wales and south Wales goes across the border from Wales to England and back again. I will write to him with the details of last week’s agreement. I can assure him that the issue has been taken fully into account in the discussions between the two Governments. I will ask the Electoral Commission to write to the noble Lord with the details of the 22 electoral returning officers in Wales.

The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, considered the issue of the maturity of young people now compared with 40 years ago. It is important to bear in mind that young people consider rather more strongly that they should have a say in the way their lives are run than was the case a long time ago. My noble friend Lord Cormack talked about the variable age of majority. I would say to him that there has always been a variable age of majority in this country. One could argue that some ages of majority are not entirely consistent with some others. It has always been the case that one could, for instance, join the Army younger than when you could get married without your parents’ consent. There are therefore different approaches to different aspects of life. Perhaps that is something else on which we need to have a consistent and long-term debate, but that has been the state throughout the whole of my life and, I dare say, we will not resolve that debate in the near future.

The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, referred to the signatures on the amendment. I tabled the amendment and three noble Lords exercised their right to add their names, as is the custom in this House. They had signed the original amendment. I would have strongly welcomed the noble Baroness adding her own name because one of the things signifying the tone of debate on the Bill has been cross-party consensus.

[Baroness Gale]

I was trying to point out to the Minister that there is cross-party support for the amendment, which could have been reflected in the signatures if I had been allowed. I am not sure whether I would have been allowed as it is a government amendment. However, I think the Minister will accept that there is cross-party support for the amendment.

[Baroness Randerson]

I wholeheartedly recognise that there is cross-party support but repeat that this is a government amendment to which three people added their names. It would have been in the hands of the noble Baroness to add her name if she had wanted to.

Finally, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, for the way in which she has expressed her appreciation for our efforts here today. She made the point that the Bill is already rather out of date. I would say to the noble Baroness that the fact that we are already planning, working on and discussing a future Bill indicates that this is a developing process.

Before I sit down, I should like to thank all those who have participated in our debates on the Bill. It has been a personal pleasure for me to steer a Bill through your Lordships’ House to devolve new powers to the Welsh Assembly and Welsh Ministers. “Historic” is a word that is sometimes overused in political debate, but I believe we can justly claim that the devolution of fiscal powers to the Welsh Assembly for the first time is an historic step forward. Although some noble Lords have expressed frustration at the pace of devolution, if we look back, we can see that Welsh devolution has come a long way in 15 years. Our debates have reflected the gathering momentum for further change. The Government are committed to ensuring that Wales remains at the heart of the development of devolution. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State and I are committed to publishing a framework for a reserved powers model of devolution by St David’s Day with—and I emphasise this—cross-party support.

I am pleased that the Government have been able to listen and respond to the views of noble Lords on two key issues during the Bill’s passage: first, on the lock-step mechanism for income tax and, secondly, on the referendum voting age, which we have just been discussing. I believe it is a better Bill as a result. At its heart, this is a Bill about accountability. It will provide the Welsh Government with the tools to help to build a stronger economy and a fairer society in Wales. For the first time, the Welsh Government will have the power to raise some of their own revenue, making them accountable to the people of Wales not just for spending, but for raising money as well.

I look forward to seeing how the Welsh Government capitalise on the opportunities we are giving them and once again urge them to call an income tax referendum as soon as possible. I thank my noble friends Lord Newby and Lord Bourne for their support and assistance with the Bill. The expertise of my noble friend Lord Bourne has been extremely useful in view of the fact that we have discussed the Silk commission on so many occasions. He was, of course, a member of that commission.

This is a short Bill but it has benefited from the expertise of officials from a number of departments: the Wales Office, the Cabinet Office, Her Majesty’s Treasury, HMRC and the DWP. It has been a pleasure to work with them on the Bill. They have been assiduous and endlessly prepared to give their time to assist me and support the many meetings I have held with noble Lords, both as individuals and in groups. I thank them for their assistance. I also thank the many noble Lords who have spoken in our debates. They have displayed a wealth of experience and understanding of devolution. I appreciate the willingness of so many noble Lords to give their time to attend a number of additional informal meetings that I arranged. I commend the amendments to the House.

Amendment 1 agreed.

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Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

2: Schedule 1, page 33, leave out lines 5 to 10 and insert—
“1 (1) Where a referendum held by virtue of section 12(1) follows on from a youth franchise resolution, a person is entitled to vote in the referendum if, on the date of the poll at the referendum, the person—
(a) is aged 16 or over,(b) either—(i) is registered in the register of local government electors at an address within an Assembly constituency, or(ii) is registered in the register of young voters at such an address in accordance with provision made under paragraph 1A,(c) is not subject to any legal incapacity to vote (age apart) within the meaning of section 2(1)(b) of the Representation of the People Act 1983, and(d) is a Commonwealth citizen, a citizen of the Republic of Ireland or a relevant citizen of the Union (within the meaning given by section 202(1) of that Act).(2) Where a referendum held by virtue of section 12(1) does not follow on from a youth franchise resolution, a person is entitled to vote in the referendum if the person would be entitled to vote in a general election of Assembly members if one were held on the date of the poll at the referendum.
(3) For the purposes of this paragraph and paragraph 1A, a referendum held by virtue of section 12(1) “follows on from a youth franchise resolution” if—
(a) a resolution is passed by the Assembly under section 13(1) which states that the voting age at the proposed referendum is to be 16,(b) the First Minister complies with section 13(2) in relation to the resolution, and(c) as a result, a draft of the statutory instrument containing the Order under section 12(1) which causes the referendum to be held is laid in accordance with section 13(3)(a).(4) An Order under section 12(1) may include provision for disregarding alterations made in a register of electors or voters after a date specified in the Order and sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) are to be read subject to any such provision.
1A (1) Where an Order under section 12(1) causes a referendum to be held which follows on from a youth franchise resolution, the Order must make provision about the registration of young voters.
(2) That provision must include—
(a) provision for the preparation and maintenance of a register of young voters;(b) provision prohibiting the publication or other disclosure of that register, or any entry in it, except as provided by such an Order.(3) Provision made by virtue of sub-paragraph (1) may, in particular—
(a) apply or incorporate, with or without modifications, any enactment relating to referendums or elections;(b) make other modifications of any enactment relating to referendums or elections.(4) An Order under section 12(1) must make such supplementary, incidental or consequential provision (if any) as appears to Her Majesty to be appropriate for the purposes of, in consequence of, or for giving full effect to—
(a) any provision made by virtue of sub-paragraph (1), or(b) the entitlement of 16 and 17 year olds under paragraph 1(1) to vote in the referendum.(5) Provision made by virtue of sub-paragraph (4) may, in particular—
(a) make modifications of any enactment;(b) make transitory, transitional or saving provision. (6) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (3)(a), “enactment” includes the Scottish Independence Referendum (Franchise) Act 2013 (asp. 13).
(7) For the purposes of this paragraph, “young voter” means a person who—
(a) will be aged 16 or 17 on the date of the poll at the referendum, and(b) is not registered in the register of local government electors at an address within an Assembly constituency.”

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Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

That the Bill do now pass.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, perhaps I may say how much I appreciated the tenor of the Minister’s remarks a few moments ago. It has indeed been rather revolutionary in the history of the land and nation of Wales that there should have been so much compromise, understanding and unity in relation to very many matters. We as a people in Wales have a reputation of fissiparous disaffection of a general nature, and nobody could gainsay that, but it may well be that with this Bill—in both Houses but particularly in this House and particularly due to the attitude of the Minister—we have shown a different approach. It is a small but impactive Bill and I believe it to be of very great historical significance in so far as the constitutional situation of Wales as a land and nation is concerned.

I want to raise one matter, and that is the question of the relationship of the Bill to the undertaking given by the Prime Minister on 19 September—that cold morning which followed the heavy events in Scotland the day before. He said that,

“there are proposals to give the Welsh Government and Assembly more powers. And I want Wales to be at the heart of the debate on how to make our United Kingdom work for all our nations”.

Those were his exact words and they could mean a very great deal or nothing at all. If by “powers” one means the powers contained in this Bill, for which I wish Godspeed, then those words are utterly meaningless because they were spoken in the heady atmosphere of massive undertakings given to Scotland and weighty undertakings given to Northern Ireland. However, if in fact they referred to nothing more than this Bill, then they meant that no additional powers in relation to Wales were contemplated than existed at that moment—in other words, there was no addition to the status quo. In my view, that would be a very unsatisfactory situation. At best, it would be misleading. It would mean that there was a negligent misrepresentation, to use a technical legal term, on the part of the Government. At worst, it would mean something much more serious than that.

For a number of reasons, I do not for a moment impugn the Prime Minister of any lack of integrity in this matter. First, this was an ex cathedra statement—not something that had been cobbled together in the wee small hours of the morning of 19 September but probably something that had been prepared a long time before when it was anticipated in the months preceding the referendum that the result might be much more clear cut than it was. Secondly, the second part of the statement reads:

“And I want Wales to be at the heart of the debate on how to make our United Kingdom work for all our nations”.

If no further devolution of a substantial nature were contemplated in relation to Wales, how could that possibly have any relevance whatever? It seems therefore that, with one additional factor, the Government must be contemplating powers well beyond those that we are considering in the context of this Bill. If a Cabinet committee is set up to consider the situation in relation to Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, and to report in January 2015 on the whole question of constitutional development, if there was to be no constitutional development in Wales, what would be the point of including Wales in such an arrangement?

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[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I have been talking about devolution and independence with the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, since around 1962 when we were both solicitors in Wrexham. Indeed, I even voted for him in 1964 when he was a Plaid Cymru candidate. The noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, will be interested to know that. Thereafter we developed our ideas on devolution and it was those ideas, which we produced in 1967 in a Bill in the House of Commons and here that was taken up and considered by the Kilbrandon commission, to which I gave evidence. I say all this because of the history that everyone has been giving.

This Bill is just a step; it is not the end. I notice today that the Glasgow Herald says that the intention of the Smith commission is to introduce votes at 16 for the next Scottish Parliament elections. If that happens in Scotland, I am sure it is going to happen in Wales. Similarly, it has been said that Scotland may very well be looking for an airport tax. If that happens in Scotland, to the delight of the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, it will necessarily come to Wales as well. There are further steps to be taken before we have the complete and satisfactory home rule that the noble Lord and I dreamed of over 50 years ago.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I shall respond briefly to the salient points that have been made in this, our last debate. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, referred to the words of the Prime Minister. Perhaps I may point out to him the solid steps that have been taken since 19 September. The Cabinet Committee has been established under the chairmanship of William Hague. The Secretary of State is of course a member of that committee and, indeed, I attend as well when Wales is being discussed. I would also point to the establishment of cross-party discussions here in Westminster. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State will also be in discussions with the leaders of the Assembly groups. We have made the announcement which has been referred to on numerous occasions in our debates of the date of 1 March, St David’s Day, by when we expect to have resolved the issues to a sufficient extent to be able to produce a reserved powers framework for future legislation in respect of Wales. That will deal with the proposals for additional powers in Silk 2, in so far as there is cross-party agreement relating to the size of the Assembly. Silk 2 was accepted by the Deputy Prime Minister in his role of leader of his party. The long-standing devolution credentials of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, are well known and respected by this House. The recent Supreme Court judgment has made it imperative that the issue of the reserved powers model is dealt with.

[Lord Wigley]

The noble Baroness touched on Silk 2 and the fact that, in Wales, we had a remarkable cross-party agreement in the Silk commission to deliver it. A lot of parties compromised to reach that agreement. Can we be assured that there will not now be further compromise? The compromise has already taken place, the Government have a unanimous report and Wales expects it to be enacted.

[Baroness Randerson]

It does not, of course, lie in my hands whether there is compromise. It is an issue for the four parties within Wales. I strongly agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, who has made clear that the devolution debate has changed. It has gathered force and moved on since Silk 2 was published. I join the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, in being delighted at the end of the concept of WAG. I always regarded this as an unfortunate acronym of the Welsh Assembly Government. My noble friend Lord Thomas made the very important point that the Bill is just a step. I say to noble Lords who make me feel like a newcomer that I have only been campaigning for devolution in Wales since 1979.

Bill passed and returned to the Commons with amendments.

Wales Bill

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab)]

My Lords, it is wonderful to listen to noble Lords who worked so hard to establish the Welsh Assembly and have the battle scars showing the history of all that went on. The establishment of the Assembly was a gift to my generation and the generation that follows it. Even more importantly, people support it and, indeed, are asking for more powers for the Welsh Assembly. However, it is worth noting that the appetite for independence in Wales has dropped to an all-time low of 4%.

I have a degree of sympathy with the position adopted by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, as this hotchpotch of constitutional efforts to put things together lacks any consistency or coherence. That is the way we have traditionally done it and that is why the Labour Party supports the establishment of a constitutional convention. However, if you follow the logic, you would have to throw out the whole Bill and I do not think that we would like to see that happen. There is an appetite for the Bill to go through. We want to see some important points in this legislation being adopted, particularly the ability for the Welsh Assembly to have borrowing powers. Having said that, it is also important to draw attention to the fact that the constitutional model on which the Welsh Assembly is established has passed its sell-by date. This amendment seeks a massive simplification and clarification of that system of governance over the current so-called conferred powers model.

At present, it is not at all clear what is devolved to Wales. As the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, pointed out, if you want to be absolutely sure about that, you have to consult countless Acts and be an expert on constitutional law. That does not help transparency or accountability, both of which are important when there is a clear problem about the way in which people relate to politics. At the very least they need to know who is responsible for what. The introduction of a reserved powers model would help that.

On two occasions, the Welsh Government have been challenged in the courts in relation to their power in certain policy areas. On those two occasions, the UK Government lost the case against the Welsh Government, most recently in relation to the retention of the Agricultural Wages Board in Wales. Thankfully, even the Government have now seen sense and recognise the need to change to a reserved powers model. In Committee, the Minister suggested that a lot of proactive work is already being done on how to move towards a new reserved powers model. We look forward to hearing more detail of how the Government intend to do that. However, the Minister also suggested that pushing for this now would prolong the process and cause serious problems for the Bill in the other place. I do not concur with that assessment because we know that there is a cross-party consensus for this position. We know that much of the work has already been done, as was indicated by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, so we do not understand why the Bill cannot refer to the reserved model and accept in principle that which we all agree with. It makes sense to be given clarification on this prior to the general election and the Assembly election. We understand that there may be a problem with the timing but we are looking for clarification. It makes sense to lay the report before the end of the six-month period; you do not have to take six months in its entirety. There is no reason why we cannot get on with it before then.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, there has been a strong sense of history here today and I would say that this Bill adds its little bit to that history.

Amendment 1, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, would require the Secretary of State to lay a report before both Houses six months after this Bill has received Royal Assent, setting out a timetable of the legislative requirements for a move to a reserved powers model for the National Assembly. As many noble Lords have said, Amendment 1 reflects the general consensus that a move to a reserved powers model for Wales is desirable. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, explained the disadvantages of the conferred powers model and the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, referred to working with that model. As a Minister in the Wales Office working with that model on a daily basis, I am well aware of the issues. Several noble Lords have provided us with a vivid analysis of the weaknesses of the current model. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, said of the 1970s model that the Government proposed what they thought they could get away with. One may possibly make the same judgment of the late 1990s model, which is the one that was used to establish the Assembly. It is reflected, of course, in the conferred powers model.

A change to a reserved powers model would provide much needed clarity in the devolution settlement—clarity which would make further referrals to the Supreme Court less likely. The Government fully agree with the underlying intention of the noble Lord’s amendment, if not with its detail. Rather than waiting for Royal Assent of this Bill, the Government intend to take forward work over the next few months to produce a reserved powers framework for Wales. Through cross-party discussions and discussions with the Welsh Government, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and I intend to produce that reserved powers framework and a set of commitments to further devolution agreed by all the parties by St David’s Day 2015. This will be a comprehensive look at the whole picture. Several noble Lords have discussed the need for a constitutional convention. I am sure noble Lords will recognise that this is not something for today. However, in respect of Wales, the Secretary of State—

[Lord Cormack]

I apologise for interrupting my noble friend but I am very troubled about these artificial symbolic dates. Fixing something by Burns Night or by St David’s Day does not march well with the constitutional consistency and coherence that I talked about.

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord possibly does not recognise the importance of St David’s Day in Wales. However, the day is chosen not simply because it has significance within Wales but because it falls conveniently before the next election and before the start of the campaign proper of the next election.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

The Minister has made a very important concession. Clearly, the Government have listened very carefully to what was said in Committee, but the problem remains of what vehicle will be used to bring this new consensus into operation. The noble Baroness will know how difficult it is to find a slot in the legislative programme. It is also very difficult, obviously, for the Government to give any firm undertakings. How does she respond to that?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord makes an important point. By moving forward on a cross-party basis, it is the intention to ensure that there is commitment across the four parties in Wales to ensure that the Bill can come forward in the early stages of the next Parliament.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I apologise because I had to leave the Chamber for part of this debate. I do not understand. If my noble friend is talking about doing this by St David’s Day, which I think is in April—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

In March; forgive me or I shall ask people to tell me when Burns Night is. If my noble friend is talking about doing this within six months, why on earth is she against the amendment?

[Baroness Randerson]

The amendment refers to starting within six months of Royal Assent to this Bill—and, of course, that will not take place for some time yet, even assuming that it has a swift passage through the other place.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

I may have misheard, or it may have been a slip. Did the noble Baroness say St David’s Day 2016 or 2015?

[Baroness Randerson]

I will of course look at the record but I was firmly intending 2015. I think noble Lords understand that.

Perhaps I may have a moment to flesh out a little further the plans that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and I are attempting to achieve. We are determined to achieve a comprehensive approach to the next stage of devolution in Wales and to achieve cross-party consensus. The simple fact, therefore, is that the noble Lord’s amendment is unnecessary.

The Government are committed to taking forward an ambitious programme for Welsh devolution and to achieve that programme through agreed, cross-party discussions. It is an ambitious timetable—much more ambitious, certainly, than that proposed in the amendment —but it is achievable and the Government are committed to delivering on it. Indeed, it is important to note that we are already working on this.

In this context, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment because the Government are determined to deliver on these commitments. We want to establish a common set of commitments that all parties in Wales have signed up to for the 2015 general election. This is an historic opportunity to achieve a major step towards a lasting and fair devolution settlement for Wales so that we are not constantly, year in and year out, having an ongoing discussion about what the next powers to be devolved to Wales should be. We want to settle this for the foreseeable future. I therefore urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Wales Bill

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, Amendments 3 and 19, in the name of my noble friends Lord Tyler and Lord Thomas of Gresford, and Amendment 11, in the name of the noble Baronesses, Lady Gale and Lady Morgan, would reduce the age for voting in an election to the National Assembly for Wales and any referendum held under Clause 12 from the age of 18 to 16. Amendment 2, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, would devolve to the Assembly the power to lower the voting age to 16 for elections to the Assembly and local authorities, as well as referenda.

The debate around whether the voting age should be lowered has of course been given fresh focus by the independence referendum in Scotland. As many noble Lords have made clear in their remarks here today, that was the first major poll in the UK in which 16 and 17 year-olds were able to participate. Whether your Lordships regard that as a mistake or not, it was a very successful mistake. Taken as an exercise in civic engagement, it was extraordinarily successful. As a long-time supporter of lowering the voting age, I very much welcome the fact that so many young people took advantage of the opportunity offered to them to have their say on that vital question on the future of Scotland. I share the joy of my noble friend Lord Tyler that so many of them appear to have voted to preserve the union.

However, I recognise that lowering the voting age is in itself no magic bullet. For example, in the Isle of Man the voting age is 16 and it still suffers from very low turnout rates. I say to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, that children do not grow up overnight and that there is a period of transition when young people are trying out their wings, if I may put it that way, in which they need support and proper civic education. Yet it can work well, as the Scottish situation has proved.

The Government have recognised the strength of feeling in the House, expressed in Committee and by a number of noble Lords this afternoon, that 16 and 17 year-olds in Wales should have the same opportunity to participate in the income tax referendum that their counterparts enjoyed in Scotland. The ability of 16 and 17 year-olds to vote in that referendum represented the will of the Scottish Parliament, answerable to the Scottish people. It was not a decision made in Westminster, as Amendments 2, 3 and 19 would be. That is why I can today commit that, at Third Reading, the Government will bring forward amendments to enable the Assembly to decide whether 16 and 17 year-olds should vote in the income tax referendum, whenever it is held.

My noble friend Lord Tyler referred to the vote of 103 to 12 in the Scottish Parliament; noble Lords can do no better than to read the debate on this issue in the Assembly record of 24 September to gain an impression of how the Assembly would vote on this issue. There is overwhelming support in the Assembly for votes at 16.

[Lord Tyler]

I am extremely grateful to my noble friend and to her officials for all the discussions that have taken place since Committee. I want to ask her one particular question. She referred to the Scottish Parliament decision which I read. The Scottish Parliament does not have the same internal regulations about the nature of the vote. It was a simple majority. Am I right in thinking that in the Welsh Assembly there is a precedent for decisions of this sort to require a two-thirds majority? That is an important difference. In giving a lead to the Assembly at Third Reading, as she is proposing, we may want to consider that matter.

[Baroness Randerson]

I may stand to be corrected by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, whose experience of Assembly Standing Orders is much more recent than mine, but I believe that the two-thirds majority would still stand on issues such as this. I can see that he is nodding so there would be a requirement for a two-thirds majority, which is an Assembly Standing Order requirement.

I think we would all agree that this is a significant step in terms of Welsh devolution.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Why is this being restricted to the referendum and not extended to votes for the Assembly?

[Baroness Randerson]

There is no feeling in the Government that the Bill is an appropriate vehicle for establishing a different franchise for Wales from that for the rest of the United Kingdom. There is, as the noble Lord has argued several times today, a need for consistency across the United Kingdom on certain franchise issues and it is important that we do not take a decision in relation to one part of the country without considering the other nations and regions.

[Lord Cormack]

My understanding is that the noble Baroness’s party is strongly in favour of a constitutional commission or convention. Surely the amendment that she is going to table at Third Reading will pre-empt any decision or recommendation that such a body might make.

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord does not seem to be entirely taking into account the considerable length of time that a convention would take. If it were going to do its job well, it would take a number of years to reach its conclusions and for those conclusions to be implemented. If there were to be an income tax referendum in Wales—I emphasise the word “if” because it is not a foregone conclusion—I hope it would take place before the outcome of any convention were decided.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

A constitutional convention or royal commission could take a very long time. However, the referendum on income tax may never happen at all as the First Minister has said that he is not very interested in this concession. Therefore, what appears on the face of it to be a significant step on the part of the Government may in fact not be a step at all because such a referendum in respect of income tax provisions is not likely to take place.

[Baroness Randerson]

If the noble Lord is telling us here today that the Labour Government in Wales have already decided that under no circumstances would they call an income-tax referendum, I am very disappointed. The line I have heard from the Labour Party up to now is that it is open-minded to it as long as there is progress on other issues connected with devolution. I want to take this opportunity to repeat that the UK Government believe that there should be a referendum on income tax powers in Wales as soon as possible. That is something we would strongly encourage in Wales. We regard this as a significant step in Welsh devolution because we are planning to bring forward an amendment at Third Reading on this with the intention that it should be used.

[Lord Elis-Thomas (PC)]

The wording of the National Assembly’s resolution on the future of devolution emphasised that a referendum on tax-varying powers should reflect the view of the people of Wales. The Minister is as able to interpret that as myself and my noble friend, so I think the position is as the Minister described it.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. I interpreted that phrase to mean that the decision should be made in Wales and that is what we will be seeking when we bring forward the amendment.

The Government do not accept that it would be right to impose on Wales a new franchise for elections to the Assembly or to local government as Amendments 3 and 11 seek to do, nor do we agree that this Bill should be the vehicle for devolving that power to the Assembly as Amendment 2 seeks to do. Devolving to Scotland the decision on whether 16 and 17 year-olds were able to vote in the referendum had no automatic read-across to the franchise for elections. As I have already mentioned, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has made it clear that he intends to begin discussions to seek cross-party consensus on the way forward for Welsh devolution. Electoral arrangements in Wales will form part of those discussions. That is the appropriate context for discussing these issues.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I apologise for interrupting my noble friend once more and I promise that I will not do it again. Can she be clear about what the principle is? I take her point about consistency across the United Kingdom. Is the principle that 16 year-olds will be able to vote in referenda which are concerned with devolved bodies, or is it a principle that is to be generally applied to all referenda? In other words, would 16 year-olds have the vote, for example, in a referendum on our membership of the European Union, should that ever arise, or is it solely limited to devolved bodies?

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, the amendment we are in the process of drafting specifically relates to this referendum on tax-raising powers because there are discussions still to be had across all parties—I suspect there will be lively discussions during the coming general election campaign—on whether votes at 16 should be adopted on a much wider basis.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

Will the Minister also explain the difference of principle which makes it appropriate for people to vote in this particular referendum at 16 but not to vote in other elections in Wales at 16?

[Baroness Randerson]

There are various strands to that question. One point is that there must be a consistency in franchise across the United Kingdom in ordinary elections. It is also important to bear in mind that a referendum is in many ways a useful way for young people to be able to express their point of view in a very clear-cut manner. A referendum campaign is a very tight and straightforward campaign.

In the light of the Government’s commitment to bring forward amendments at Third Reading enabling the Assembly to decide whether 16 and 17 year-olds can vote in the income tax referendum, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab)]

My Lords, I add my appreciation of the fact that we have seen some significant movement during this debate, and I hope that we can continue in that vein for the rest of the day. I want to talk specifically about the agreement or necessity for the Assembly to agree to electoral arrangements. That is very much where the Labour amendment comes from. We have a proposition in this Bill, and we think it would be incorrect for the Assembly not to have a say.

In Committee, the Minister underlined the fact that the majority of the electoral proposals contained in this Bill had been discussed and agreed by the Welsh Government. That is important; there is an important principle here that should be respected. But the principle of devolution also means that it should be a formal process; the Assembly needs to agree to these measures formally and legally rather than have them handed down, even if it is through an agreement that is not as formal as we would like. It is important for us to move to a more legislative approach, and that is what we seek to do with our amendment.

It is also important to note that the Scottish Parliament has the power to make arrangements about Scottish parliamentary elections. That is a divided power between Scottish Ministers and the Secretary of State. So we are simply asking for a degree of consistency. This is a discussion that will go further when we come to Silk 2 and other arrangements. In the context of what we are talking about here the electoral arrangements being proposed should formally and legally be approved by the Assembly.

The Minister spoke in Committee about the danger of a piecemeal approach to devolution and said specifically in relation to elections that there was a need for a “comprehensive approach” across the UK for powers and conduct of elections. That is precisely what we are asking for here—a similar system to that which already exists in Scotland. We do not quite understand why there is a reluctance on this. Could the Minister specify whether there is a principled objection to this or whether this is a question of timing?

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I fear that I might be about to disappoint one or two noble Lords by not being able to make the leap in one bound to the position that they would like us to be in—but I am pointing roughly in the right direction.

Amendment 4 would prevent electoral provisions in this Bill being implemented until they were agreed by the Assembly, and Amendment 5 would devolve to the Assembly powers over its constitution, structure, membership and elections. As the noble Baroness has just said, the electoral provisions in the Bill arise from consultation undertaken by the Government on the Green Paper that they published in May 2012, and it is fair to say that a lot of devolution debate has flowed under the bridge in the past couple of years. That consultation sought views on, among other things, permanently extending the term of the Assembly to five years; preventing Assembly Members from sitting simultaneously as MPs; and overturning the ban on dual candidacy. In response to that consultation, all parties in the Assembly, including the Welsh Government, supported the permanent move to five-year fixed terms. There was also general agreement that AMs should not be able to sit simultaneously as MPs. The one area of disagreement was on the area of dual candidacy, to which we will undoubtedly return later this afternoon.

There is widespread support in the Assembly for the majority of the electoral provisions in this Bill. It would be wrong to delay the commencement of these provisions as Amendment 4 seeks to do purely because of the desire in the long term apparently to hand over a power.

Amendment 5 would put electoral arrangements among other things more generally in the hands of the Assembly by devolving competence over these issues to the Assembly itself. I am more sympathetic to the intention underlying that amendment. It is a characteristic of most mature legislatures, as the noble Lord said, that their composition and electoral arrangements and the conduct of their Members are issues that are decided on and legislated on by the legislature itself. The Presiding Officer of the Assembly has made similar arguments on a number of occasions, and the Silk commission made a number of recommendations about the Assembly and the statutory restrictions that currently apply to it.

The constitutional debate in the UK at the moment presents an historic opportunity to achieve a clear, stable and lasting devolution settlement for Wales by moving forward together on the basis of consensus. The proposals in Amendment 5 should therefore be considered as part of the cross-party process that I have already mentioned. One or two noble Lords anticipated that point. I ask noble Lords to forgive me for saying once again that this Bill is not the appropriate vehicle for taking them forward. They can be taken forward at this very time in the cross-party discussions that will take place over the next few months and should reach a consensus and agreement, because it is obvious that there is a lot of cross-party agreement that the Assembly should ultimately be responsible for the conduct of its own internal affairs and for issues such as elections.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

My joy is unbound.

[Baroness Randerson]

Then I very much hope that the noble Lord expresses his joy by not moving his amendment.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, I was hoping for a more positive response. As I may have said earlier, once upon a time I was a civil servant. In Whitehall there is a little book called something like 1,001 Ways of Avoiding a Decision. “Yes Minister” is in that same vein. The argument put forward is that this is not the vehicle; this is not the time. I would argue that it is the vehicle and it is the time. The Minister’s speech could have been made a month or two months ago. My noble friend Lord Elis-Thomas indicated that there have been two recent developments in the Assembly—the resolution and the response to committee recommendations—which suggest that there is all-party agreement in the Assembly.

[Baroness Randerson]

Does the noble Lord accept that discussions are going on at this time on whether these issues should be devolved to the Assembly? His amendment would simply have the effect of delaying things which have been agreed some considerable time ago as a result of the normal form of public consultation.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The last thing I would argue for is delay. There is surely a case for delay if there are genuine differences between the various parties in discussion, but I understand that there is no lack of consensus, as indicated in the points made by my noble friend Lord Elis-Thomas. If the argument is that I may be seeking to delay, I can say that I am certainly not doing that. If the argument is that my amendment may have the effect of delaying, I would respond: what is the effect of what the noble Baroness is saying?

Will there be some agreement in time for Third Reading on this matter, on which there is substantial agreement and on which we have the precedent of the relationship between the Scottish Parliament and Westminster? Why the difference? If there is agreement why cannot it be done now, as indeed on the concession that the Government made in respect of the voting age? Is the Minister prepared to say, given the consensus, that this can be remedied and changed at Third Reading? If not, I think it is unfortunate but I would certainly not wish to proceed with the amendment, and I beg leave to withdraw it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, as the noble Lord has just said, Amendment 6 would provide that the names of candidates standing on a regional list in an election to the Assembly must be printed on the ballot paper and that the maximum number of candidates that a party can nominate for inclusion on the regional list would be reduced from 12 to six.

The Government of Wales Act 2006 provides that a party may nominate up to 12 candidates for each electoral region. As the noble Lord said, until 2011 in the Assembly elections the names of all those candidates were included on the regional ballot paper. However, following the 2007 Assembly election, the Electoral Commission reported that electoral administrators were concerned that including the names of all these candidates on the ballot paper was making ballot papers unwieldy in size and potentially confusing to voters. As a result, the names of candidates for the electoral region were removed from the ballot papers for the 2011 elections, although the names were still required to be displayed in polling stations. However, it is clear from the Electoral Commission’s report that there were problems with that display of names in a number of cases. In its report, the Electoral Commission committed to consult on whether candidate names should again be printed on regional ballot papers. This consultation recently closed and I have had a meeting with the Electoral Commission since the close of that consultation.

Once the commission has made its recommendation to the Secretary of State for Wales, the Wales Office will consider this as part of its wider work in drafting amendments to the conduct order for the 2016 Assembly election. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State is taking a keen interest in this. He understands the powerful arguments for maximum transparency, which is obtained by having names on ballot papers. There will, of course, be consultation with the Electoral Commission, the Welsh Government and electoral administrators as well as political parties in Wales. The final order will be subject to agreement by both Houses of Parliament. This is a tried, tested and robust process which will ensure that a wide range of views, including those of political parties, will be taken into account before a decision is made.

My noble friend’s amendment refers to the reduction to six names on the ballot paper. I point out that this could be achieved by simple agreement across parties. In fact, efforts were made to reach such an agreement last time. I hope that in the interests of voters and their understanding of the election it will now be possible for discussions to take place that would achieve that agreement. In that case, if we can get cross-party agreement that there should be only six names on the ballot paper—parties could not be prevented from fielding up to 12 candidates because that is their legal right—it would enable shorter and easier to manage ballot papers for the administrators of elections.

In the light of that additional information, I urge my noble friend to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord German]

I thank my noble friend for her remarks. I have only two comments to make. At the outset, I said that I would like to establish the views of the political parties to see if they were represented. I now know that this is getting a sympathetic hearing from three political parties, but the fourth—the Labour Party—was silent. We will therefore have to wait and make a judgment accordingly when we see its written submissions when they are made public.

However, as my noble friend said, the issue of getting consensus and agreement means that a political party that does not agree could go ahead and field 12 names. I hope that my noble friend will agree that, should the majority of political parties putting forward candidates for the 2016 National Assembly elections agree in that consensus, we will go ahead with putting only six names on the ballot paper and not allow a single party to veto that happening on behalf of all the other political parties in Wales, given that we have such a broad, strong principle, and where there are precedents in all previous elections to the National Assembly for Wales, bar one. Is my noble friend prepared to go ahead on those terms? I do not know whether that is possible.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

It is important that the noble Lord takes account of what I have just said. I will certainly ensure that this debate is drawn to the attention of the Secretary of State, who has the power to make the decision and present the measure to both Houses of Parliament in due time.

[Lord German]

I thank my noble friend for that and, on that basis, beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I entirely agree with the noble and learned Lord’s point of view.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, it seems that the exchange between the noble Lord and the noble and learned Lord has amply illustrated that there are two issues here. There are some offices, such as being a judge, for which standing even as a candidate would fundamentally undermine public confidence in their impartiality. A judge may be an obvious example, but there could be others at the edge. People might ask whether the Auditor-General for Wales, or a member of his staff, would be able to stand. On balance, people would probably agree that they should not be allowed to. But beyond that group there is another group, often consisting of councillors, and usually councillors representing political parties, who are nominated in their role as party members or as councillors elected on a party-political ticket to bodies funded by the Welsh Government. Therefore, their candidacy is not a problem. Everyone knows that they are there because of their political position, and their election to that position. But we would not wish them to remain on whatever board or group it is that they have been nominated to once they become Assembly Members, because the Assembly funds that organisation, so it is not appropriate for them to be both funder and funded.

Amendments 9 and 10 would implement a number of the recommendations, as my noble friend made clear, made in the report by the Constitution and Legislative Affairs Committee of the National Assembly for Wales. Amendment 10 would set out a list of disqualifying offices in this Bill, and provide that a candidate who holds a disqualifying office would not be banned from membership of the Assembly so long as they resigned that position within eight days of having been elected. As a result, Amendment 9 would also remove the power of the Assembly under the Government of Wales Act 2006 to resolve that a disqualification may be disregarded in specified circumstances.

When we debated similar amendments in Committee, I sympathised with noble Lords’ concerns that someone would need to step down from a disqualifying office in advance of nomination, even if, for instance, they were listed 12th on a party list and therefore had no realistic prospect of being elected. However, amending electoral legislation can be an immensely complicated affair, so making changes to the way in which Assembly Members are elected requires considerable discussion before it can be implemented—not least because, as my noble friend has indicated, this approach to disqualification is not limited to the Government of Wales Act but applies across all UK legislatures.

In fact, in its response to the report of the Constitution and Legislative Affairs Committee published last month, the Welsh Government recognised that:

“It is not likely to be possible to secure amendments to these provisions before the next Assembly elections in 2016”.

But in a debate on this issue in the Assembly just last week, the First Minister committed to working with the next Government to consider changes to the Assembly’s disqualification regime ahead of the 2021 Assembly election.

There is a good case for including,

“only those offices for which there is a strong case for inclusion”,—[Official Report, 13/10/14; col. 104.]

on this list. I am pleased that, following Committee, the First Minister wrote to the Secretary of State for Wales to give the Welsh Government’s assurance that this is indeed the approach they will follow in drafting the order. I therefore look forward to a very much slimmed-down list of disqualifying bodies whose members cannot stand for election. This is in the interests of attracting the strongest possible field of candidates, because, after all, those people well qualified and prepared for being candidates to the Assembly are very often those who already serve their communities on a number of such bodies.

The Wales Office will, of course, be working closely with the Welsh Government as they prepare their draft disqualification order. Further discussion will be required on the wider topic of disqualification from the Assembly. I thank my noble friend for introducing these amendments, as it has enabled us to shine a spotlight on this important issue and to liaise with the Welsh Government. There are agreements between the Welsh and UK Governments as a result of the amendments introduced here and of the report from the Assembly’s committee. Those two events have moved the debate on this issue on. Although action may not be taking place as quickly as my noble friend would like, we have the First Minister’s commitment that he will bring forward appropriate measures after the general election. I therefore urge my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for the work that has obviously been done in the Wales Office on this issue. Anyone standing as a candidate in the 2016 election will be very much on notice of this problem, and I hope it will not arise again. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Gale]

My Lords, once again we have had an interesting debate, as we did in Committee. There was general consensus then that the number of Welsh Assembly Members should be increased. Indeed, over the 15 years of devolution, many calls have been made to increase the number. Different reports have been produced, including by the Electoral Reform Society Cymru. The 2004 Richard commission supported an increase, and we know that the current presiding officer, Dame Rosemary Butler, has said the same. The Richard commission said that there should be 80 seats, while the Silk 2 report said that the,

“size of the National Assembly should be increased”.

In 2013, the Electoral Reform Society and the Changing Union project published a report recommending that the number of AMs should be 100. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, asked how many Members we should have. He also pointed out the small number of Back-Benchers, at 42. It means that the ability to scrutinise legislation is curtailed, as is holding the Government to account, which is really important in a democracy. As legislation becomes more complex, it is necessary for politicians to develop areas of specialist expertise, but that is difficult for most of the Back- Benchers because they are spread so thinly and they have to do lots of different things. The Minister will have experience of that and obviously she understands everything we are saying in this debate.

The debate today shows that there is consensus around increasing the number of AMs. I do not think that the Minister will be able to make a commitment because we need more discussions in order to decide exactly what would fit the bill, as it were. The Senate was built to cater for 80 Members, so someone must have been thinking ahead, but I do not think that that would be a restriction if the consensus declared it should be 80 or whatever number we come up with. However, I am sure the Minister will agree that there is consensus on this point and generally there is a feeling in Wales that we need to increase the number of Members of the Welsh Assembly.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, Amendment 12 would increase the size of the Assembly to 80 Members. In Committee we had amendments from across the House on increasing the size of the Assembly. The noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, spoke in favour of an increase to at least 80, as he did today. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, agreed but suggested that there might be 100. My noble friend Lady Humphreys also spoke of having 80 Members after the 2016 election and then 100 in 2021. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, spoke of a desire for 120, although, as I mentioned, his amendment today calls for 80.

I say all this because it illustrates in a nutshell the problem with any debate on the size of the Assembly. Even if everyone agreed that the number of AMs should be increased—I suspect that there would be a good deal of agreement among politicians—there is no consensus on how many more Members there should be. And, of course, among the public there may not be that consensus and agreement. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, said in Committee:

“‘Any advance on 80? Any advance on 100? Any advance on 120?’ Where does one stop?”.—[Official Report, 13/10/14; col. 65.]

I should say to noble Lords that discussions with Welsh party leaders both here and in the Assembly will deal with all the recommendations made by the Silk commission, and it is right that we should try to seek consensus on this issue, as we will on the other issues set out in the Silk 2 report.

The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, made a very important point: form should follow function. Surely, the size of the Assembly should be decided in the light of how many additional powers it will get and exactly how significant those powers are. Once that part of a cross- party discussion and debate has taken place, it would then be the appropriate time to address the issue of the size of the Assembly. It is important to settle this discussion rather than agree on a certain number of additional Members now and then in two years’ time talk about more again. That is not easy for the general public to appreciate and bear with. It is important to make sure that the size of the Assembly fits the job it has to do. As for the timing, as part of the four-way discussions, I suggest that it is for the political parties to set out their views in their manifestos, which would give the parties the opportunity to put to the test whether the electorate believes that the Assembly should be made larger. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

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[Baroness Gale]

My Lords, I am again pleased to take part in this debate and it seems that, once again, consensus reigns across your Lordships’ House. I support these provisions because the idea is to empower our citizens to register to vote. We know that turnout in Welsh elections has been lower than we would like it to be, especially among younger voters in Wales. Anything that can be done to increase participation, especially among our younger people, is to be welcomed. We know of the success in Northern Ireland, which is a great example of how it can be done. We have seen how the young people of Scotland were enthused by the referendum. Obviously, they all had to register to vote and they took part in that referendum because they were excited by it.

I am pleased to say that the Labour Party will have a manifesto commitment at the general election on voter registration and that we will be putting forward measures to encourage young people to vote. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, made out a very good case for taking active steps and engaging at the school and further education level. If action were taken as set out in the amendments, it would mean that young people, people with disabilities and ethnic minority groups—those who are consistently underrepresented in Wales’s democratic processes and, at present, the least likely to take an active part in democratic life—could be registered to vote and, by voter engagement sessions, be encouraged to use their vote. We need to get those at schools and further education colleges to understand how important it is for them to register and to vote.

The four Welsh party leaders have signed a letter to the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Wales, and the Wales Office Ministers showing their support for these moves. We know that in a letter today, which other noble Lords have mentioned, they again urge your Lordships’ House to support these amendments. I will not read out the whole letter but it says that, “We the undersigned”—that is, the four leaders—are supporters of these voter registration amendments and therefore,

“ask you to incorporate this important provision into the Wales Bill”,

to set in train,

“easier, engaging and accessible voter registration for the people of Wales”.

If the Minister will take all these views into account, as I know she will, we could move forward on this and encourage our younger people and the underrepresented groups to register and vote.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I start by paying tribute to my noble friend’s very energetic campaign on this issue, which has certainly helped to raise awareness of the problem. Knowing about the problem is part of the way to solving it. This is a complex issue so, while I know that it is late in the day, I hope the House will forgive me if I take some time to explain why these amendments would not in themselves solve the problem. That is not the Government being complacent—far from it. We all agree that there is a problem that has to be solved but registration alone will not solve it. An answer has to lie in civic engagement and education as well as in a vigorous programme to increase voter registration. I want to explain the programme that the Government are undertaking.

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[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, these amendments utter an important warning. It is one thing to devolve minor taxes, such as development land tax and landfill tax, it is another to devolve more significant taxes such as air passenger duty, of which the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, has just spoken. But when it comes to the major taxes such as income tax and corporation tax, very deep thought needs to be given to the viability of such devolution if the United Kingdom is still to hang together. It worries me very much that we can toy with such propositions without them having been thought through. My noble friend is absolutely right to insist that, in the event of further proposals for tax devolution being made, deep thought needs to be given to them, led by the Treasury, and there needs to be a responsible debate across the United Kingdom because we risk unravelling if we continue to play these games.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, the issue underpinning Amendments 16 and 20 is symmetry between devolution settlements. Noble Lords have set out three guiding principles to support tax devolution. We believe that it should have cross-party support, be based on evidence and not be to the detriment of other parts of the UK. Based on the second of these principles, the Government have been consistently clear that decisions on devolution must be treated on their own merits using all the available evidence. This reflects the fact that what is right for one country is not necessarily right for another. The devolved countries are different and so, rather than seeking to achieve symmetry, it is more important that the three devolution settlements work in the best interests of the people of Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland.

I point out to noble Lords that there are obvious differences. Reference has been made to the land border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. The nature of the border between England and Wales is very different from the nature of the border between Scotland and England. Differences of that nature do affect decisions on devolution. Above all, we are determined to work in the best interests of each of the individual countries. Most recently, for example, we have removed the income tax lockstep from this Bill.

In response to the questions asked by noble Lords, I refer them to the Silk 2 report. Corporation tax was part of those recommendations, so it will be a natural part of those four-party discussions. I stress that both the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister have pledged to put Welsh devolution at the heart of the debate, and that is what the Secretary of State and I are seeking to do in discussions with the four party leaders. I hope that noble Lords will believe that our timetable for those discussions proves that we are determined to press ahead. I therefore ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, I support the amendment that my noble friend has just moved. It is as important as any other that we have debated today. I cannot see a satisfactory future for devolution in Wales until the Barnett nettle has been grasped. It is scandalous that no Government have dealt with this problem since the mid-1970s when the formula was introduced. Cumulatively, since devolution was introduced, Wales has lost out on some £5 billion of funding that it ought to have had, had there been a fair funding formula based on needs rather than on population.

It is true that the gap between what Wales ought to receive and what it does receive has narrowed somewhat in recent years, but we have to anticipate that, as economic growth continues to recover, so the gap in funding and the unfairness of funding will be exacerbated again. It is therefore imperative that there is no further procrastination on this and that the Government agree, with real urgency, to act to secure a just settlement for Wales. The Government were quick to respond to political pressures in Scotland. Political pressures in Wales have been expressed in gentler terms so far, but there will be a continuing sense of injustice that will undermine all the other efforts that we make to establish harmonious and satisfactory political arrangements on devolution for Wales. There are, of course, wider issues affecting the relationships between the nations and regions of the United Kingdom as a whole. I look forward to the Minister giving us a very positive response to the amendment.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I always enjoy the conversion of the Labour Party to the idea that the Barnett formula is unfair. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, made a very important point, which is that it is scandalous that this formula has lasted for so long without anyone inquiring into it. I can assure noble Lords that the Government are aware of the issues and have taken measures to ensure that they are addressed.

This amendment would make the devolution of an element of income tax conditional on changes in funding arrangements. Specifically, the First Minister has raised this issue on numerous occasions, saying that he would not be prepared to recommend devolution of income tax unless fair funding were obtained. The amendment suggests that the Welsh Government have to confirm that they are content with the way in which funds are allocated to Wales from the UK Government before the element of income tax can be devolved.

This Government have already recognised that there has been convergence between the levels of funding in England and Wales since devolution. We took steps in the matter just two years after taking office. In October 2012, we set up a joint process with the Welsh Government to review the levels of funding in Wales and England in advance of each spending review. If convergence is forecast to occur over the spending review period, there will be a joint discussion of options to address the issue in a fair and affordable manner. That system worked well in advance of the 2013 spending round and confirmed that spending is not forecast to converge during the period up to 2015-16. It also established that relative funding levels in Wales were within the range that the Welsh Government’s own Holtham commission regarded as fair. In that context, the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, quoted the 114% figure that my noble friend Lord Newby referred to last week. I am happy to write to her, and to set out further detail on that figure.

In relation to ongoing discussions about the funding situation, following the first meeting of the Joint Exchequer Committee between the UK and the Welsh Governments last month, we have now further committed to revisit jointly the review process in the light of the powers in the Bill. In other words, we have agreed to find a way of facilitating fair funding. The Government therefore believe that there is a sound basis for an early referendum to be called and I urge the Welsh Government and the Assembly to do so as quickly as possible.

I hope that I have assured noble Lords that the Government are aware of the issues on funding and are addressing them in discussions with the Welsh Government, who are fully conversant with our plans. I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

My Lords, we acknowledge that the Government have taken certain steps to improve the scandal of Barnett in relation to Wales and we acknowledge that discussions are ongoing. We want the Assembly to be happy and comfortable with that funding process and to accept that it is a fair system, so I am a little disappointed that it should be so difficult to accept this amendment because that is what is being worked towards. It is simply saying that, before these things kick in, let us make sure that everybody is happy. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Wales Bill

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 4th November 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

That the amendments for the Report stage be marshalled and considered in the following order:

Clauses 1 to 12, Schedule 1, Clause 13 to 16, Schedule 2, Clauses 17 to 30.

Motion agreed.

Northern Ireland: National Crime Agency

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 4th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the National Crime Agency will be fully operational in Northern Ireland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, we continue to urge all parties in Northern Ireland to make progress on this issue. Justice Minister Ford has submitted a paper to the political parties which sets out enhanced accountability arrangements for the NCA. This paper should allay remaining concerns about the NCA’s role and allow all parties to support the full extension of the NCA to Northern Ireland without further delay.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, does the Minister feel it appropriate for Her Majesty’s Government to allow Sinn Fein to exercise a veto over the operation of the National Crime Agency? Is she aware that when debating Commons Amendments to the Crime and Courts Bill on 25 March 2013 the prospect of a Sinn Fein veto was anticipated? The noble Lord, Lord of Taylor of Holbeach, announced that in such circumstances,

“any Government of the United Kingdom will respond in a responsible manner”.—[Official Report, 25/3/13; col. 832.]

When will the Government override Sinn Fein’s veto, behave responsibly and fully establish the National Crime Agency in Northern Ireland right away?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord refers to the words of my noble friend Lord Taylor and to the Government responding with responsibility. It is important to remember that this is a devolved issue. In order to retain the confidence of the people of Northern Ireland across the communities every effort should be made to reach the decision within Northern Ireland. The Government believe that the efforts being made by David Ford as Justice Minister in Northern Ireland are working towards that end.

[Lord Trimble (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Northern Ireland Act, which implemented the agreement, expressly reserves and protects this Parliament’s right to override that legislation, in just the same way that it has the power to override others in the national interest? How long will the Minister wait before the inevitable exercise of that power?

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[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, the Government do not intend to breach the Sewel convention on this issue. We believe that there is still work that can profitably be done to bring all parties in Northern Ireland to agreement on this issue. If agreement is not reached, the parties will have to decide what measures they need to take on devolved issues to deal with the problems that they face.

[Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend has told us that these proposals are being talked about. Can she tell us whether they are being talked about in the context of the talks taking place to try to resolve many of these issues? I was not quite clear.

[Baroness Randerson]

My right honourable friend the Secretary of State discussed these issues with the political parties last week as part of the wider issues that were being discussed.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, with no disrespect to the Minister, we have heard before stories about it happening soon and all the rest of it. We have repeatedly asked for the Secretary of State to get involved, which would show the urgency of the situation. The security of the people of Northern Ireland is continually put at risk by the absence of participation in the National Crime Agency’s operations. Instead of merely urging the parties to get together, should not the Secretary of State stop hiding behind the figure of David Ford and get some action on the Government’s own account?

[Baroness Randerson]

I understand the frustration that the noble Lord expresses, but I can assure him that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has been constantly involved in this issue and is regularly in discussions with the political parties. However, the noble Lord is correct in drawing attention to the fact that the same protection is not afforded to the people of Northern Ireland while the issue of the NCA is unresolved. I can assure him that we are extremely keen to reach agreement on this.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, how long will the Government wait to decide to override what is not being done in Northern Ireland?

[Baroness Randerson]

I think the noble and learned Baroness expresses the same view that has been made clear around the Chamber not just today but in previous discussions that we have had on this issue. It is important that we are given this opportunity to discuss it because our frustration and concern need to be heard in Northern Ireland in order to ensure that all the political parties take this issue very seriously indeed.

[Lord Browne of Belmont (DUP)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree with me that it is vital for the security of the whole United Kingdom that the National Crime Agency should be permitted unfettered freedom to operate within Northern Ireland as neither the Police Service of Northern Ireland nor the Garda Siochana will have the necessary expertise and resources to counter effectively the potential threat posed by international terrorists and criminal gangs operating across the United Kingdom’s only land border?

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[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord makes some excellent points. It is important to emphasise the huge pressure being put on PSNI while this issue remains unresolved. It is also important to point out that the NCA deals with serious and organised crime which does not respect boundaries. It has been very much more difficult to deal with serious crime—child exploitation, drug related crime, fraud, and so on—since the NCA has not been able to operate.

[Lord Bew (CB)]

As all the parties in Northern Ireland have a very strong and noble position against human trafficking, does the Minister accept that the National Crime Agency has a key role to play in that respect? In their discussions with local parties, do the Government emphasise the important role that the NCA could play regarding human trafficking, which is increasingly troubling to those who pay attention to the affairs of Northern Ireland?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord makes a very important point. If the parties of Northern Ireland feel vulnerable on this issue, it will hit home hardest on the question of child exploitation and human trafficking.