Empowerment and Responsibility: Financial Powers to Strengthen Wales

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords, in particular the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for proposing this debate, which has provided an opportunity to consider the recommendations of the Commission for Devolution in Wales—the Silk commission—on fiscal devolution and financial accountability. The noble Lord has rightly taken a keen interest in the Silk commission’s recommendations since they were published on 19 November and clearly recognises the importance of the report for Welsh devolution and for improving the financial accountability of the Assembly and the Welsh Government. I agree wholeheartedly with his comments in this regard.

The Government gave a clear commitment, in our programme for government, to set up a Calman-like process for the Welsh Assembly, depending on the outcome of the referendum on law-making powers for the Assembly last year. Following that vote in the referendum on Assembly powers, there was a clear need to examine Welsh devolution in a methodical way and to ensure there was no repeat of the case-by-case, drip-by-drip approach to devolution that typified changes to the Welsh settlement during the “LCO years”, as I call them. Our commitment to a Calman-like process for Wales did just what was needed.

The Secretary of State set up the Silk commission in October 2011, with, as the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, has emphasised, cross-party support. That support was reflected in the commission’s membership, which included representation from all four parties in the Assembly. Since then, the commission has gathered evidence and criss-crossed Wales to hold public meetings to inform its work on improving the financial accountability of the devolved institutions in Wales. The fruits of that labour, in the form of a nearly 200-page report, were published three weeks ago.

I take issue with the idea put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, that in some way three weeks is too long to spend analysing a complex package and a complex set of tax proposals, with 33 recommendations. I believe that noble Lords would expect the Government to take that seriously, as we are. Discussions on this are already well under way between Cabinet colleagues and between the Welsh Government and the Treasury. I assure noble Lords that we are taking it so seriously that there will be a response, we hope, in the spring, which I believe is timely for a report of this importance.

There is no doubt that the report is detailed and thorough. It relates to the financial accountability of the Welsh Government and the National Assembly, and how that can be improved through the devolution of tax and borrowing powers. I pay tribute to the commissioners for their hard work.

First, the commissioners recommend that the Assembly should be able to take tax decisions in order to better empower it to deliver policy objectives in devolved areas. To achieve this, the commission’s proposals include the devolution of smaller-yielding taxes, as set out here today.

Secondly, they suggest that to improve financial accountability, the Welsh Government should be responsible for funding a material amount of the money they spend. The commission recommends that responsibility for income tax should be shared between Cardiff Bay and Westminster, and that the Welsh Government should be able to set income tax rates within the UK income tax structure. The commission recommends that income tax devolution should be subject to a referendum, which the noble Baroness has indicated she supports.

Thirdly, it suggests that the Welsh Government should be granted borrowing powers; an issue that was raised very powerfully by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and others. That recommendation fits well with the announcement, already made before the publication of the report on 24 October, in which we agreed the principle of borrowing powers for the Welsh Government to fund infrastructure investment, subject to an appropriate independent revenue stream being put in place. In answer to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, in general terms the minor taxes that are suggested would be considered to be a sufficient income stream to support borrowing, along the precedent set for the Scottish Government. Indeed, the UK Government have indicated that they will be prepared to anticipate the establishment and devolution of those taxes in order to enable more rapid progress to be made on infrastructure development in Wales.

Taken together, the package of measures recommended by the commission would make the Welsh Government responsible for raising about a quarter of their revenue. That is a significant change, and both the Government and Parliament need to scrutinise the implications in detail. In response to the noble Baroness, I say that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales has indicated his willingness and keenness to have a debate as soon as possible in the other place. Of course, there will be further opportunities when the Government officially respond to the Silk report.

That brings me on to where we go from here. As I have said, these recommendations would represent a fundamental change in Welsh devolution—perhaps the most fundamental change since it was established in 1999. That requires careful examination. As we announced in last week’s Autumn Statement, the Government plan to publish an initial response in the spring. It is a clear demonstration of our commitment to progress this work seriously, but in a timely manner. There is a significant amount of work to assess. Clearly, the Scotland Act sets a precedent for fiscal devolution, but we need to consider the Silk commission’s package for Wales on its own merits. As I have already said, discussions have already started.

The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, talked about the importance of economic regeneration. I feel that the Silk report neatly linked the policy objective of economic regeneration with its recommendations on specific taxes. The noble Lord also raised the issue of corporation tax. Of course, corporation tax is a very specific area for Northern Ireland in particular, because Northern Ireland shares a land border with the Republic of Ireland, where the rate of corporation tax is particularly low. Corporation tax is a particularly tricky issue if you are to avoid a “race to the bottom”. It is important to bear in mind that if you are on the wrong side of that border in that race to the bottom, you get the flight of businesses over the border. That is a difficult issue to be considered. The Silk commission certainly did not have a clear recommendation on that at all.

The proposed timetable is very tight, but I understand the issue. The Silk commission put forward a package of measures. Fair funding is also a package of measures, and there are ongoing discussions between the Welsh Government and the Treasury, with the agreement announced on 24 October that there would be discussions at the start of every spending review period. It would take into account whether there was likely to be convergence within that period.

The noble Lord, Lord Morgan, raised the interesting concept of representation without taxation. I felt that that was a neat way of referring to the problems that the Welsh Assembly has experienced. He drew attention to the weakness of the devolution settlement. He also spoke about the ability to vary the rate of income tax, and rightly says that Silk is more radical than Calman on this issue. He also rightly said that Silk affects the whole of the UK. However, I point out to several noble Lords who referred to the unfairness of the Barnett formula that it is a pretty blunt instrument because it does not take into account need, but it is also important to place on record that the discussions between the Welsh and UK Governments have led to an agreement that there is no longer convergence occurring. Indeed, in the past couple of years there has been divergence. In other words, Wales is doing rather better than it was a couple of years ago in terms of the Barnett formula. Indeed the figures show—and these are figures agreed between the Welsh and UK Governments—that we are within the rough area that the Holtham commission stated in its report was the fair level of funding for Wales. It is important to bear in mind that there has been that agreement.

Finally, I will, of course, review the record and will take the opportunity, with their permission, to write to noble Lords about any issues of substance that have been raised that I have not been able to address in my response.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Brougham and Vaux)]

My Lords, that completes the business in Grand Committee this afternoon.

Northern Ireland: Recent Events

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat the Statement made earlier today in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on events in Northern Ireland.

“I would like to make a Statement about events in Northern Ireland over recent days. Over the past week, a series of protests has taken place relating to the decision taken by Belfast City Council on the flying of the union flag. A number of these have witnessed violence, rioting and attacks on police officers. Yesterday evening a masked gang threw a petrol bomb inside an unmarked police car; a young policewoman narrowly escaped very serious injury. This is now being treated by police as attempted murder.

As I made clear in the House last Wednesday, there can be absolutely no excuse or justification for this kind of thuggish and lawless behaviour. It is despicable. We condemn it unreservedly and it must stop immediately.

I welcome the Motion passed unanimously yesterday in the Northern Ireland Assembly, which unequivocally condemned,

‘rioting and the campaign of intimidation, harassment and violent attacks on elected representatives’,

and reaffirmed,

‘the absolute and unconditional commitment of all its Members to respecting and upholding the rule of law and the pursuit of their political objectives by purely legal and political means’.

Let us be very clear. No one can be in any doubt about the Government’s support for the Union and its flag, but the people engaged in the kind of violence that we have seen in the past few days are not defending the Union flag. There is nothing remotely British about what they are doing; they are dishonouring and shaming the flag of our country with this lawless and violent activity. They discredit the cause that they claim to support. They are also doing untold damage to hard-pressed traders in the run-up to Christmas, and they undermine those who are working tirelessly, day in and day out, to promote Northern Ireland to bring about investment, jobs and prosperity.

In addition to outbreaks of violence, appalling threats have been made against elected politicians, including a death threat to the honourable Member for East Belfast. I know that the whole House will join me in expressing our complete solidarity with the honourable lady, her colleagues in the Alliance Party and all the people who have been threatened and intimidated over the past week by this disgraceful conduct. The right of elected representatives to go about their daily business without the threat or fear of intimidation is one of the hallmarks of our democracy, and these threats are nothing less than an attack on democracy in this country.

Throughout this crisis I have stayed in close contact with the chief constable of Northern Ireland. Thirty-two police officers have been injured in the line of duty during the past week, and I take this opportunity to pay the warmest tribute to the brave men and women of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, who once again find themselves in the front line encountering and tackling violence. They have shown themselves again to be fearless guardians of the rule of law, whenever and from wherever it comes under attack.

I received another update from the chief constable this morning. He informed me that around 38 people have now been charged in relation to this disorder. Those who are engaged in violence should be in no doubt of the determination of the chief constable and the PSNI to apply the full force of the law. Those engaged in violence should be well aware of that fact.

I have also discussed with the chief constable the threats to elected politicians. Again, I am in no doubt as to the extreme seriousness that Matt Baggott, like the rest of us, attaches to those unacceptable threats. I assure the House that the PSNI is doing all that it can to enable elected politicians to carry out their duties and serve their constituents.

For our part, the UK Government will continue to give our fullest backing to the PSNI. That is why, in the face of the deteriorating security situation that we inherited, the Government secured an exceptional additional £200 million from the Treasury reserve. We will continue to do all that we can to assist the chief constable in keeping the people of Northern Ireland safe and secure, whether from so-called dissidents or from those responsible for this week’s events.

Yet responsibility for solving the underlying issues that have led to the violence does not rest solely with the police or the UK Government. It is right that local politicians in Northern Ireland take the lead in trying to reach agreement on a way forward. In tackling these issues, I believe that everybody has a responsibility to consider very carefully the impact of their words and deeds on wider community relations.

Once again, the trouble that we have seen in Belfast and elsewhere underlines the urgent necessity of working towards a genuinely shared future for all the people of Northern Ireland. We have made it clear that, where the Executive take the difficult decisions needed to deliver that, they will have the Government’s full backing. It would be a huge lost opportunity if Northern Ireland politics were to continue to be defined by questions of identity. There is a pressing need to focus on the wider issues of the economy, jobs and delivery. The scenes of the past few days have been deplorable, but we should not let them detract from the positive progress that Northern Ireland has made in recent years.

That was highlighted last Friday by the visit to Belfast of the US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton. She rightly pointed to the many difficult decisions taken by local politicians and the leadership that they have shown in bringing us to where we are today. I am sure that those politicians will not allow the achievements that have been made to be undermined by lawless violence of the kind that we have seen over the past week. I am also sure that this House will remain united in support of their efforts to move the peace process further forward towards a genuinely shared future for all in Northern Ireland”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord for his response. The key point he made, which was also made in the other place, was that we would not tolerate this kind of behaviour and violence in Cardiff, London or Edinburgh and therefore we must not tolerate it in Belfast. We must condemn it strongly and insist that any issues of frustration or differences of opinion have to be dealt with and aired through freedom of expression and opinion, not through violence. There is no place for violence in a modern democracy. Northern Ireland has travelled a very long way in the past 10 to 15 years. When one looks back at the issues that the country faced 15 years ago, the progress that has been made is astonishing. It is important that we do not allow it to slip back, particularly, as the noble Lord pointed out, when 2013 offers the opportunity to bring the world spotlight on to Northern Ireland and to give it a real opportunity for economic progress.

The noble Lord referred to a number of issues. The first was the resources that have been provided. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has had discussions with the chief constable, who regards himself as having sufficient resources. In the Statement, I referred to the extra £200 million that was given to take the PSNI through to 2015. However, there are now further discussions about any need for additional resources after that. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State is very willing to consider additional resources if it is felt that they are needed.

My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has kept the Prime Minister closely informed. The Prime Minister is extremely concerned and is in close touch on what is happening in Northern Ireland at this moment. She has also had a number of meetings and telephone discussions. She has spoken with David Ford, the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland, three times over the past week. She has spoken with the chief constable three times and has spoken to the MP for East Belfast, Naomi Long. I know that she—and, indeed, I—would be happy to do more if it were needed in order to ensure that people are brought together and that we bring an end to the appalling violence that we have seen in recent days.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the whole House would benefit from short questions to the Minister so that she can answer as many as possible.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank my noble friend for that powerful response. He speaks with a great deal of experience of the situation. He was a prime force in the early days of the Northern Ireland Assembly. He knows only too well how difficult it is on occasion to make progress. I also thank him for his tribute to the bravery of the PSNI and to the elected representatives. I have always thought that politics in general is not for the faint-hearted, but in Northern Ireland it is certainly not for the faint-hearted. Given the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland, we almost began to take for granted that progress would carry on there. The past few days have shocked us in relation to the threats to elected representatives. The blocking of the road to the hospital was totally inexcusable.

My noble friend referred to the gradual increasing violence, which has been a general trend in recent years. As he knows so well, the flying of the flag is an issue of great sensitivity. However, the flag has been flown over Stormont on designated days, which has been accepted up to now. Indeed, the union flag has been flown over a number of council buildings throughout Northern Ireland on designated days. I have to emphasise to the House that the decision on flying the flag is a local, democratic decision. It is a matter for the councillors in Belfast and for the MLAs.

My noble friend referred to a possible delay in response from the UK Government to this situation. It is important to bear in mind that so many of these things, including the PSNI, are devolved issues. It is also important that we allow the devolved Government in Northern Ireland to make decisions and to take leadership when it is needed. Finally, it is truly important that leadership is exercised strongly and responsibly by politicians in Northern Ireland.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, I am a member of the Cross-Bench group.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rogan]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. Has she noticed that the Ulster Unionist Party has condemned in the strongest possible terms the harassment of and violence towards police officers and elected representatives? Anyone who engages in this illegal activity on our streets fails to understand the values that are encapsulated in the union flag. In doing what they did, they lose the very argument that they want to promote.

Does the Minister agree that it is not sufficient to condemn the violence? One must look at the underlying causes which triggered this violence. It is not just the removal of the union flag from Belfast City Hall where it had flown continuously since 1906. It is about a people who feel that bit by bit they are having their Britishness stripped away from them. It is also about a people who perceive themselves as becoming second-class citizens in their country. These are deeply held beliefs, whether they are real or imaginary. The Government must recognise them and begin to address them.

Police officers who were simply doing their duty of protecting the community under extremely difficult conditions have been subjected to outrageous attacks. Rather than being attacked, these officers deserve our thanks and support for standing between us and anarchy.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments. He refers to the underlying causes. I would point out that culture changes and identity develops over a period of time. Indeed, the people of Northern Ireland have seen considerable development in their political culture in the past few years. I would also like to point out the association between the violence and the areas where there is social deprivation in Belfast in particular. That is why it is so tragic. Every time a picture on television of rioting in Northern Ireland crosses the world it does economic harm to Northern Ireland and hits its opportunity to develop a better world, particularly for its young people.

[Lord Mawhinney]

My Lords, does my noble friend recognise that she was right to point out that that what is happening is an attack on democracy? I am sure she carries the whole House with her when she says that. Although we are all shocked, we ought to be mildly encouraged that there have been previous attacks on democracy in Northern Ireland, and the people stood firm and good people prevailed—and, if I may say so, Ministers stood firm, and progress was made. We need to remember that in these difficult days. Does my noble friend also recognise the truth of part of what the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, said? Those who participate in this violence, or at least some of them, think that by doing that they can force their political agenda. Will the Government make it clear that violence will never force a political agenda and that the political agendas that have already been discussed and need to be addressed, including questions of ongoing identity, cannot be addressed in the context of a response to, or as a consequence of, the threat to democracy that this violence constitutes?

[Baroness Randerson]

My noble friend makes some important points. It is important that we make it absolutely clear that the leadership in Northern Ireland and the Government in the UK will stand firm and show the appropriate leadership. Of course, there are always issues to be addressed, and the way in which the Northern Ireland Executive have attempted very successfully to work together to overcome huge divides on occasions has always been a great example to us. It is important that political leadership at every level in Northern Ireland shows that.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, those of us who had some involvement with Northern Ireland over the years must feel particularly dismayed and disappointed by the events of the past little while. By chance, on the day when the troubles began in Belfast City Hall, I was attending a small meeting with Naomi Long when she predicted what was going to happen—and it was a very depressing occasion. She is a remarkably brave woman, given all the threats to her. It is particularly disappointing that it is a month ago that the Irish Prime Minister went to Enniskillen on Remembrance Day and the Deputy Prime Minister went to a similar ceremony in Belfast. These were very important and positive gestures, which did not get much publicity at all in Britain—but they were very significant in terms of the Irish Government trying to play their part. That is a long way away from these very disappointing events.

I do not want to excuse violence, and it is not excused under any circumstances. If it was direct rule, I would ask the Minister this very positively. I am a member of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, and some years ago we produced a report on the life chances for young people in some of the most disadvantaged parts of Belfast. One could see something of this sort coming, with young people, particularly from the Protestant areas, being prey to loyalist paramilitaries because they had no other future in life at all. I am afraid that that report was ignored. I urge the Government to talk to Northern Ireland Ministers and say that they must not neglect things like poor life chances for young people. In those poor life chances, we see the seeds of some of the events that have happened. It does not excuse them for one second—it does not excuse them at all. But we have to understand that and see what can be done in the longer term.

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord makes some important points and draws our attention to what are sometimes stunning symbolic examples and positive gestures by political leaders in the island of Ireland as a whole. When I was in Belfast last week, I was very impressed by the determination of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to develop the economy of Northern Ireland. I also had a meeting with Invest NI, which is doing excellent work on inward investment. It is key that that investment trickles down to those socially deprived areas where problems such as we have seen in the past week particularly occur.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew]

My Lords, I declare an interest arising from two appointments connected with security in Northern Ireland. Will my noble friend join me in respecting the dignified way in which David Ford has conducted a very difficult job—as difficult as any ministerial appointment on this side of the water—as Minister of Justice in Northern Ireland? Secondly, does she agree that the evidence is that what has happened is a threat to public order but not a threat to national security? The vast majority of the public in Northern Ireland, whichever religion or part of the community they come from, are absolutely hostile to the sort of public disorder that has occurred in recent days and wish strongly that the hooligans who have been committing the acts that have been described would simply go home and stop.

[Baroness Randerson]

My noble friend has introduced two important new topics. One is the excellent way in which the Justice Minister, David Ford, has gone about his work. I met him as well last week and, having met him several times in the past, I was yet again tremendously impressed by his determination and the clear and even-handed way in which he approached his task. On the issue of whether it is a threat to public order or a threat to national security, I would agree with my noble friend that the latter definition has not yet been reached. The important thing is that, however you define it, it is wrong and it must be condemned on all sides.

[The Lord Bishop of Bath and Wells]

My Lords, may I also express, from these Benches, our abhorrence at the violence that has been experienced in Northern Ireland, pay tribute to the PSNI for the work that it is doing and encourage the bravery of its officers? I have been involved in Northern Ireland for many years: I have been married to an Irish woman for 45 years and have been engaged in various different aspects of the progress towards peace during those years. One thing that has impressed me, and continues so to do, is the work being done by grass-roots groups in communities. These are very often people who have been involved in acts of violence themselves and have come to a new place in their experience. As we look at this particular situation and circumstance, I encourage the Minister to nurture those grass-roots groups that are endeavouring to form and make peace within the communities and which are, very often, aware of the various participants in these situations and can themselves be the means by which some of the violence is reduced.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate makes a very important point about the voluntary sector. We all know that the voluntary sector is important to our society throughout the United Kingdom, but nowhere more so than in Northern Ireland. The work of some of the community groups to improve a sense of security and belonging is absolutely astonishing. It is of particular interest how many community leaders have had an association with violence in the past in Northern Ireland and have seen that it is the wrong way to go.

[Lord Glentoran]

My Lords—

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, I think it is the turn of the Cross-Benchers, and I am a member of the Cross-Bench group. As one who suffered intimidation and was shot 10 times through my body by the IRA, I totally deplore—and have every reason to deplore—attacks on politicians of any party in Northern Ireland. Secondly, the Minister may have given a wrong impression about what is happening in Northern Ireland. We have had more than 50 demonstrations in the last week in Northern Ireland and many of them have been totally peaceful and well organised. That was not said. The impression given was that there were riots at all these demonstrations. We had five demonstrations in my home city of Armagh last night. They were well organised and very civilised.

It was mentioned that the honourable Member for Belfast East foresaw the violence. The reaction was caused when Sinn Fein and the SDLP, joined by their colleagues in the Alliance Party, decided to lower the union jack for 350 out of the 365 days of the year. One of that team said, “We have done a good day’s work”. That really inflamed opinion among the majority community in Northern Ireland and a vast minority within the City of Belfast. Would that group who decided to lower the union jack in Belfast have been better to delay their decision until January and not damage the retail shops in Belfast in the run-up to Christmas?

Finally, I bring the Minister good news. We had our census figures in Northern Ireland today. First, some 45% of the population are Roman Catholic, but now only 25% say they are Irish only—proof that sectarianism is fading. Secondly, 59% now hold a United Kingdom passport, while only 21% hold an Irish passport. In the United Kingdom, the union flag is the flag of Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland; but Scotland, Wales and England also have their own local flags. Would it not be a good idea, given that flags are a divisive issue in Northern Ireland, to put our minds together to get a flag—as well as the union jack—to which Roman Catholics and Protestants, unionists and nationalists, and anyone can give joint loyalty? So far, we have no Northern Ireland flag. Is it not time we started to design a flag that would appeal to everyone?

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord very much for his comments. I freely and fully acknowledge that there have been a significant number of totally peaceful demonstrations in the past week. Unfortunately those people are overshadowed by those who decided that they wanted to provoke violence. The right to demonstrate peacefully is the core right of our democracy. That is absolutely accepted on all sides.

The timing of the decision on the flag on Belfast City Hall was a matter entirely for Belfast City Council. As for the noble Lord’s point on sectarianism, I join him in the hope that Northern Ireland politics will be less marked by sectarian differences in the future. He makes an interesting point about a new flag for Northern Ireland—one that I am sure will be well aired, now that he has raised the matter here. It is bound to be discussed with interest. I come from Wales and we talk a lot about the Welsh flag and the place of Wales in terms of the union jack. I can therefore understand the significance of a new flag, which could be an interesting option for the future.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, before we start the Question for Short Debate, I remind noble Lords of the speaking times. Except for the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby, who has 10 minutes, and the Minister, who has 12 minutes, all speeches are limited to four minutes. I will be able to help noble Lords.

District Electoral Areas Commissioner (Northern Ireland) Order 2012

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 27th November 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

That the draft order laid before the House on 15 October be approved.

Relevant documents: 8th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 20 November.

Motion agreed.

Welsh Government: Tax-varying Powers

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 27th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will take steps to enable the Welsh Government to have greater tax-varying and borrowing powers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)]

My Lords, the Government established the Silk commission to look at the case for devolving fiscal powers to Wales, and the commission reported its findings last Monday. The Government are very grateful for the expertise and rigour that the commission has brought to this important work. We will now carefully consider its recommendations and assess whether they are right for Wales and for the UK as a whole. The Government will respond to the report in due course.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness to the Dispatch Box to answer questions in this way, not least because not so long ago she was asking exactly the same questions as I am asking today. Does she accept that the Welsh Government have no borrowing powers at present other than to cover temporary revenue shortfalls—a power that has never been used—or residual WDA powers, which are offset against the DEL budget and therefore provide no additional benefit? Now that the Silk report has come forward, as the noble Baroness mentioned, unanimously recommending that the Welsh Government should have new powers to borrow to fund capital investment over and above the DEL budget, as well as powers to issue bonds, can she give an undertaking that the Government will quickly move to provide these powers for the Welsh Government?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord will appreciate that, as the report was published only last week, it is very early to make decisions. I can make no firm comments about the outcome of the process that we are going through at the moment. However, on borrowing, it is important to recognise that in October a joint announcement by the Secretary of State at the Wales Office, the Welsh Government and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury acknowledged that in principle the Government agree to borrowing powers for the Welsh Assembly, and we anticipate the potential of the Welsh Assembly having the right to raise and levy taxes in order to offset those borrowing powers.

[Lord Mawhinney]

My Lords, in the event that the Government decided to make new powers available to Wales, would this constitute a legal precedent as far as the governance of Northern Ireland is concerned?

[Baroness Randerson]

It is important to bear in mind that the Government look at each of the devolved Assemblies and Parliaments and balances one against the other. They each have individual circumstances, individual rights and a different devolution settlement from the other devolved nations of the UK.

[Lord Morgan]

My Lords, the Silk commission admirably proposed a valuable extension of devolution by linking representation and taxation. Nevertheless, is not the Welsh Labour Party correct in saying that we cannot properly resolve these matters until there is fair funding for the Welsh Government, which means the abolition of the Barnett formula?

[Baroness Randerson]

I draw the noble Lord back to my previous answer which related to the statement in October from the two Governments. That made it clear that in relation to the Barnett formula there was an agreement between the two that, if convergence were to start to occur again, there would be discussions with a view to establishing a mechanism to ensure a fair system for Wales.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on her appointment and indeed, the Government on their enlightened approach to the issue of borrowing by the Cardiff parliament. Is it not the case that it would be indeed strange if a national parliament did not have borrowing powers that are enjoyed by the most menial of local authorities? Does the Minister agree that in light of the fresh and energetic dynamism that has been created for devolution in consequence of the referendum of March last year and now, of course, by the Silk report, it would be absurd if these powers were not to be given to the land and nation of Wales?

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, the agreement in October established the principle that borrowing powers could be given to the Welsh Assembly and that we should move towards those with all possible speed. I acknowledge, as the noble Lord has said, that it is completely out of line with the international situation for a legislature to have no powers of this sort. I am very hopeful that the report will be looked at in detail with all due speed, in a timely manner. It is important for the House to note that the Government have made it clear that we want to set in train issues that follow from Part I of the Silk report before the publication of Part II.

[Lord Bilston]

My Lords—

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[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

My Lords, first, I very much welcome an old friend to her position as Minister for Welsh affairs in this House. With all the changes that we are seeing in relationships within the UK—some constitutional and others possibly economic—is it not time for the Government to establish a working group of all four nations to discuss the problems that might arise and to prepare for them, without having to rush in when the time comes without thinking them through thoroughly?

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments. However, now is not the time to take a comprehensive look at devolution in the round for all the nations simply because measures are in place in each of the three nations in terms of the development and progress of devolution. We therefore have to wait for those current developments to settle down before we look at devolution as a whole outcome.

[Lord Bilston]

My Lords—

[Baroness Gale]

My Lords, the Minister will know that the Silk commission’s recommendations included changes to taxation that would have implications extending beyond Wales and having consequences for the whole of the United Kingdom. Does she agree that Members from all parts of the United Kingdom in both Houses should be able to debate the report in full? Can she give some idea when the Government will respond to the report? I know she said earlier that it would be in due course.

[Baroness Randerson]

It is important to bear in mind that there were 33 recommendations in the report. That very complex set of recommendations was presented to us as a package; nevertheless, there is a series of different strands associated with them. Of course, as the noble Baroness rightly points out, they have implications well beyond the borders of Wales. Some of the recommendations could be implemented relatively quickly and without legislation, whereas others would require substantial amendments to the Government of Wales Act or legislation introduced by the Treasury. However, I can say that the Wales Office and the Government are committed to dealing with this with all due speed, but in a timely manner so that we give due and serious consideration to every recommendation.

District Electoral Areas Commissioner (Northern Ireland) Order 2012

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 20th November 2012 Grand Committee

Moved By

[Baroness Randerson]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the District Electoral Areas Commissioner (Northern Ireland) Order 2012.

Relevant document: 8th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the draft District Electoral Areas Commissioner (Northern Ireland) Order 2012, which was laid before the House on 15 October 2012, be approved. This is a relatively simple but important order that makes provision for the appointment of a district electoral areas commissioner in Northern Ireland. By way of background, local government itself, including local government boundaries, is a devolved matter for the Northern Ireland Executive, but elections to local government are an excepted matter for the UK Government. In 2008 a local government boundaries commissioner was appointed by the Northern Ireland Department of the Environment to make recommendations regarding the boundaries, names and wards of the new 11 local government districts, reducing the number from the current 26. Once established, the wards in those districts need grouping into electoral areas so that elections can take place using the STV form of proportional representation. The Secretary of State appoints a district electoral areas commissioner, who is independent of government, to carry out this important task.

In 2009, the then Secretary of State appointed Dick Mackenzie as the DEAC for a period of one year. This was done in the expectation that the Northern Ireland Executive would move forward with local government reorganisation in time to hold the 2011 local elections on the new 11-council model. Mr Mackenzie did a considerable amount of work on the district electoral areas during his period of appointment but unfortunately was not able to complete his task. This was because the Executive at that time were not able to move forward with the local government reorganisation before his term of office expired. It was of course not possible to set electoral areas before ward boundaries had been agreed. Local elections in 2011 were therefore held on the basis of the 26-council model.

I am delighted that the Northern Ireland Executive and the Northern Ireland Assembly have now agreed to move forward with local government reorganisation and that an order setting out the boundaries and wards for the 11 new councils has been agreed by the Northern Ireland Assembly. The order is expected to be made by the Northern Ireland Department of the Environment before the end of November.

As for the order itself, we now need to move forward with the next part of the process. Since the district electoral areas commissioner appointment has come to an end, there is no legal basis on which to reappoint someone to the same task, so a new order is needed. The order before us, in summary, makes provision for the appointment of a district electoral areas commissioner following the 2008 local government boundary review and amends the District Electoral Areas Commissioner (Northern Ireland) Order 1984.

Article 2 provides for the appointment of a replacement commissioner when the district electoral areas commissioner’s appointment has come to an end before he has completed his task. This provision will be used for the current process. Article 2 also makes amendments to the timing of future appointments, providing greater flexibility for the Secretary of State on when to make the appointments. It allows the Secretary of State to appoint a district electoral areas commissioner at any time after a local government boundaries commissioner’s appointment. However, he or she will not be required to do so until an order has been made by the Northern Ireland Executive establishing the new local government boundaries.

Article 3 makes specific provision for the timing of the appointment following the current review. It provides that the Secretary of State must appoint a replacement district electoral areas commissioner “as soon as practicable” after this order comes into force. It also provides that the commissioner must submit his report as soon as practicable after his appointment if the local government boundaries order is made before this order comes into force, which may well be the case.

In conclusion, I hope that noble Lords will endorse this statutory instrument, which ensures that the process of local government reorganisation in Northern Ireland, as agreed by the Assembly, can continue. I commend the District Electoral Areas Commissioner (Northern Ireland) Order 2012 to the Committee.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, first, I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, to the post dealing with Northern Ireland. As I am sure she will pick up very quickly, boundaries are of great interest to all political parties in Northern Ireland, perhaps even more so than in the rest of the United Kingdom. I am not quite sure whether she is a veteran of the debates on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill but that was certainly a very interesting time and I thoroughly enjoyed my part in it.

Can the Minister tell us whether there have been any objections to the delay in making this appointment and putting this order through, and whether there were any objections to any part of the process? We take the view—and my honourable friend Vernon Coaker has always made it quite plain—that these matters that are devolved to Northern Ireland must be dealt with in Northern Ireland. Especially when it comes to boundaries, we will work closely with all the parties in Northern Ireland to make sure that they are accepted.

However, there are one or two questions. This post is likely to be controversial and I wonder what the Government’s response is to any controversy that has arisen over this post, which is quite a significant one. Perhaps the Minister can answer those questions when she responds. I reserve the right to perhaps come in again if any comments require a response from me.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, this has been a very interesting debate and I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to it. Some very important points have been made. I will do my best to reply to all the substantive issues that have been raised but will of course review the record afterwards and write to noble Lords if I feel I have not had the opportunity to do so.

The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, asked whether there had been any objections to the delay in laying the order or to any part of the process. Of course, the timing of this is entirely a result of the processes followed by the devolved Administration—the Assembly and the Northern Ireland Executive—and it is for them to choose the speed at which we travel. We have responded to their work in the most timely manner possible but the timescale is a result of their discussions and deliberations. To our knowledge, there have been no objections to the role of the Northern Ireland Office in this matter, although there has been considerable debate, some of which has been reflected here today, on the nature of the boundaries and precisely what they should be.

The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, set out for us the road that has been travelled in Northern Ireland and it is important that we bear in mind when we discuss issues such as timing and delay that we have travelled a very long and significant road. He is right to point out that there are still considerable sensitivities surrounding these issues.

On the future speed of travel, the target date is that the Northern Ireland Executive hope to hold the next elections, for a shadow set of 11 authorities, in 2014. Noble Lords will be aware that the 2011 elections were held on the old boundaries, for the 26 authorities. If we are to have the new boundaries in place and shadow elections in 2014 for councils that will come into their full powers in 2015, the DEAC needs to do his or her work in time for those elections, and for the setting up and selection of candidates and the role that political parties have to play in all this. The Northern Ireland Executive are ambitious to achieve this timetable and we are anxious to support and enable them to do so.

The noble Lord also asked about the size of the districts. The 1984 order set out a five-to-seven-ward model, with each ward represented by one councillor. If you have a district of five wards, you have five councillors and if you have a district of seven wards, you have seven councillors. It would seem that this is the likely model that will be followed in future.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, also expressed concern about the delay in the local government elections, particularly the impact that this delay and uncertainty has had on local councils. He rightly points out the important role of councils in maintaining democracy in Northern Ireland, even at the most difficult times. Councils in Northern Ireland should be commended for that role. He is also absolutely correct in pointing out that time is short if there are to be elections to the shadow councils in 2014. It might help if I point out that the DEAC’s work and the process to be gone through will include a public consultation and potentially 11 separate inquiries—one for each of the new council areas. Once the DEAC has been appointed, it may take up to a year to complete this work. Therefore, I agree that the appointment needs to be done promptly, although there is scope to reduce that time if the uncompleted work of the previous DEAC could be utilised, at least in part. We are clear that the work needs to be completed as soon as possible; certainly in good time for the scheduled elections.

[Lord Empey]

To be clear, if the former commissioner happened to be reappointed, I can see how one could compress that. However, if there is an appointment process, someone else is appointed and that takes a year, are we saying that parties would have only three or four months to react and for candidates to come into the picture? All that would have to be done. That is a ridiculously short amount of time. I could argue that it is nearly worse than police and crime commissioners.

[Baroness Randerson]

I must agree with the noble Lord that time is short. The timescale can only be met with the goodwill and support of the political parties. Of course, once the DEAC is appointed and the inquiries start, it will come as no surprise to local political parties that the elections are on the horizon, so it may be possible for them to prepare in advance. The noble Lord is right to say that the targets here are ambitious, but I emphasise that they are not set down by the Northern Ireland Office. We are following the timescales set by the Executive in Northern Ireland and we are anxious to support them in their ambition to introduce reforms in local government in time for 2015, when councils have their powers fully conferred on them.

We accept that our success in this depends on joint work with the Northern Ireland Executive. We are working closely with them. Our role is to make arrangements on the election administration and the Executive will need to bring in legislation on the operation of the shadow councils.

I referred to the process that the DEAC will have to fulfil in order to achieve his or her work. I emphasise that the work of deciding electoral areas is of fundamental importance to the election process. Although timescales may be tight, it is important, for reasons that have been amply illustrated today, that the work should be done carefully, fully and correctly, because it is potentially controversial.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, addressed the proposals on boundaries and the apparent prohibition on taking into account local identity. This is a matter for the Northern Ireland Executive. The issues are devolved and it would be entirely wrong for me to intrude on them in my response.

The noble Lords, Lord Browne and Lord Morrow, both stressed their support for the new model of 11 local councils. It is important that we emphasise that across the piece there has been support for local democracy in Northern Ireland, and for the new model. I assure noble Lords that the Northern Ireland Office will do everything it can to help the Northern Ireland Executive move forward.

Any local government reorganisation in any part of the United Kingdom is a sensitive issue. I speak as someone who went through it once as a local councillor. The issue cannot be rushed. It is important for strengthening democracy, and this is an important part of strengthening Northern Ireland and its democratic future.

Motion agreed.

Wales: Devolution

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Thursday 19th July 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

That this House takes note of the progress being made by the Commission on Devolution in Wales chaired by Paul Silk.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, first, I declare an interest as I am in receipt of a pension from the National Assembly for Wales. I am also a member of the advisory board of the Wales Governance Centre, to which I will refer later.

Since I entered this House 18 months ago, noble Lords have devoted many hours to Scottish constitutional issues. In putting down this Motion for debate today, I am hoping to start to redress the balance and shine a little light on Welsh constitutional issues. We recently had an excellent debate on the Government’s Green Paper on electoral systems, which demonstrated that we have plenty to say. In the 1990s, as a Liberal Democrat, I was a supporter and campaigner for a full Parliament for Wales, rather than the little fledgling we were given in 1999. However, I am a pragmatist and long ago accepted that the Assembly we were given, fashioned like a county council as a corporate body, was the best that the then Secretary of State for Wales could persuade his party to accept. In my view, something is better than nothing.

We then set about building the Assembly into a proper legislature. First, the Liberal Democrat-Labour partnership Government established the Richard commission, which produced a radical and far-sighted set of recommendations, which I regret were not pursued by the then Secretary of State. Instead of a giant leap forward, we were consigned to a series of short hops. One such short hop, in 2006, saw the second Government of Wales Act, which introduced primary legislative powers—but only so long as MPs gave their permission on a one-by-one basis. Hence, the infamous legislative competence order was born and with it a great deal of resentment between the two institutions. It complicated an already very complex system.

It is worth noting that there is a fundamental difference in how the original Government of Wales Act and the Scotland Act were written. The Scotland Act gave power to the Scottish Parliament over wide areas of public policy, with specific and narrow exceptions. By contrast, in Wales, the Assembly was given much more narrow and specific powers, which were added to in a haphazard and lopsided way as and when the Assembly asked for them, an issue I will return to later. The second stage envisaged in the Government of Wales Act 2006—full legislative powers—was pressed for throughout the third Assembly. However, there was little progress prior to the coalition coming to power in 2010.

The history I have outlined so far will tell you that the people of Wales have got used to looking over their shoulder with envy at the powers enjoyed by the Scottish Parliament. Just as resentment was building, rescue arrived in the perhaps unlikely form of the coalition. A number of key developments followed pretty quickly after the coalition came to power. There are four pieces on the chess board at the moment and, just as in the game of chess, the movement of one piece has a knock-on effect on all the others.

A referendum was held on legislative powers, which was won resoundingly. Intergovernment talks have started on the Barnett formula, which has been a growing source of acrimony for the past 12 years. Recently the Secretary of State issued a Green Paper on electoral arrangements for Wales which proposes some significant and, to me, very welcome changes. The Silk commission set up in October 2011 is a long-burning fuse looking at two key aspects. Part one deals with financial accountability. The Assembly has always lacked some credibility because, uniquely in the UK, it has no responsibility for raising the money it spends. Even a parish council has more financial credibility than the Assembly. The Welsh Assembly is probably the only body in the world able to pass laws and spend money while having no power or responsibility over tax. Indeed, only last week the Wales Governance Centre, the Institute for Welsh Affairs and Tomorrow’s Wales came together to produce a joint submission to the Silk commission in which they emphasise this anomaly. They labelled it,

“an aberration from international and British norms”,

and expressed the view that such powers were needed in order to increase the accountability of Welsh government.

The commission, chaired by Paul Silk, formerly a clerk to the National Assembly and, indeed, formerly a clerk to Parliament, in the other place, is modelled on Scotland’s Calman commission, but, significantly, it has even greater credibility because unlike Calman, all four main political parties are represented on it. So far it has taken evidence on financial accountability and we expect its report on this aspect early next year. It has had more than 40 submissions, the majority in favour of some element of fiscal powers for the Assembly. Of course, the big question is exactly which taxes should the Assembly be allowed to levy. In a country with such a long border with England there are practical problems to be addressed in order to ensure that devolution of tax-varying powers does not lead to increased tax avoidance.

The foundations for the commission’s discussions were laid by the Holtham commission, which was established by the Welsh Government in 2007. That looked at the Barnett formula as well as tax-raising powers. In contrast, the Silk commission is looking only at taxation, discussions on the Barnett formula being held between Governments. While that is understandable, as the Barnett formula does not affect only Wales, it makes the situation more complex and I believe that it will be essential to reform the Barnett formula before we can have satisfactory devolution of any significant tax-varying powers. Discussions between the two Governments seem to be progressing and I wonder whether my noble friend the Minister, when he replies to this debate, can give us an update on progress. I am particularly interested in the concept of the introduction of a Barnett floor, which would ensure that when public expenditure begins to rise again, Wales will not be subject to the Barnett squeeze suffered from so badly so far.

I believe that it is more or less inevitable that the final recommendations of the commission will include some which are dependent on Barnett reform for their implementation. Indeed, a large number of the responses to its consultation concentrate on this issue. It is a happy coincidence that this week has seen the publication of the ICM poll commissioned by the Silk commission which gave a strong, if a bit confused, endorsement for proposals for the Assembly to be granted tax-varying powers. Some 64% favoured powers to set income tax and 80% agreed with borrowing powers. My view is that borrowing powers are a vital first stage that can be implemented quickly and easily. The Northern Ireland Executive has used its borrowing powers for infrastructure and public service investment. There has been significant development in the borrowing powers of the Scottish Parliament. Wales needs this freedom as well if there are ever to be major infrastructure projects, such as the badly needed improvements to the M4. I accept that the Treasury has to place limits on such borrowing, but if Wales were to be given similar powers—similar limits to those applied in Scotland and Northern Ireland—we would be looking at something in the order of a cumulative limit to borrowing over a period of 10 years of just over £1 billion. I am pretty certain that the Treasury can cope with that.

It is of course easy to agree in principle that some taxation powers should be devolved, but the difficult decision comes in agreeing exactly which taxes and to what extent. The two most commonly cited proposals are for part of income tax and for corporation tax to be devolved. Corporation tax has the advantage of ensuring that the Welsh Government would benefit from higher tax revenues as a reward for pursuing successful economic policies. More prosperous businesses mean more tax revenue. The Welsh economy desperately needs stimulation. I am a strong devolutionist, but I fully recognise that the Welsh economy has suffered badly in the years since devolution. It would be useful for the Welsh Government to be able to attract new business with the incentive, for example, of a slightly lower rate of corporation tax.

The Silk commission is looking at the devolution of some powers over income tax, following the Scottish model and as recommended by the Holtham commission, which said that half of income tax should be allocated to Wales but with the ability to vary it by 3p from the English rate. But without a fairer funding formula, this could lead to a further drop in income, which would be simply unacceptable. Therefore, in my view, the devolution of a proportion of income must be predicated on a reform of Barnett running alongside it.

If not income tax, what other taxes could successfully be devolved? Maybe stamp duty, to help lower the cost of homes in Wales. As waste management and recycling are both largely devolved, both the landfill tax and aggregates levy, if devolved to Wales, would enable the Welsh Government to take a more strategic approach to environmental issues. There should be a greater freedom to reform the local government rating system, domestic and non-domestic. The complexity of Welsh devolution is such that both business support and local government are devolved, but the Assembly does not have the powers to change the rating system beyond some control over the multiplier.

Another possible candidate is the devolution of our passenger duty. There is really no reason why the Assembly should not be allowed to create a new tax—maybe a green tax—to stimulate environmental efficiency. Clearly, this is a complex area and there must be detailed analysis by tax experts before decisions are made. It is clear to me, however, that control over some tax levers would encourage the Welsh Government to be more strategic in their thinking, and to concentrate on the economic growth that Wales so badly needs. It would increase democratic accountability.

Finally, and briefly, I will anticipate the second stage of the Silk commission and look at the issue of powers more generally. I have just cited an example of complex powers over local government finance. There are many more such anomalies, where a gap in powers makes it difficult for the Welsh Government to wield the powers they do have as effectively as they should. Basically, the Government of Wales Act is chaotic and becomes more so by the year as additional powers are tacked on like sticking plaster. In my view, the Act needs to be entirely rewritten on the Scottish model, which I referred to earlier in my speech.

There is, in addition, a pretty long list of additional powers that the Assembly could justifiably claim should be devolved to Wales. Powers to deal with energy consents for projects over 50 megawatts would be particularly welcomed in a country which is home to so many large wind farms. Policing is a strong contender, because the police nowadays work so closely with local authorities, and local government is devolved. The gradual development of a body of Welsh law makes it logical that there should be a separate Welsh jurisdiction. We are already, de facto, half way there, and that is important to recognise. Some aspects of broadcasting, such as S4C, could sensibly be overseen by the Assembly and there is a host of more minor powers that would tidy up the settlement, such as reforming the electoral arrangements for local government.

I am very pleased indeed to see the list of distinguished speakers planning to take part here today. I have already referred to the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and his report. I am pleased to see him in the Chamber. I look forward to hearing all your Lordships’ views. I regard this as our opportunity to make our voice heard in this consultation and I ask the Minister when he speaks to suggest how we can most effectively put the points made in this debate on record for consideration by the Silk commission.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I thank all those who have contributed to the debate. Every noble Lord who has done so has made a very valuable contribution. In particular, I thank the Minister for his informative reply.

A wide variety of opinions have been expressed but I think there is consensus that the time is now right for the Welsh Assembly to have tax-varying powers. In some of our eyes, that time is well overdue. However, I detect that some people are coming to this for the first time. The debate has revealed the complexity of the issues. However, there is certainly agreement across the board that the Assembly needs borrowing powers. Some very interesting ideas have been put forward on the convention—for example, on the future of the UK constitution. The idea that there should be a permanent monitoring commission is very interesting.

Of course, you can never get a largely Welsh group of people together without their discussing the Barnett formula. After today’s debate, the Minister is well aware of the strength of feeling on this. I shall make just one quick point of clarification: when I referred to the Barnett floor, I was referring to it as a way in which we could quickly make some progress on this issue. Something to which no noble Lord has referred today is how long it will take once the decision is made to reform the formula. It will take years, rather than months, to develop a new needs-based formula, and in Wales we need that action quickly.

Once again, I thank every noble Lord for their contribution.

Motion agreed.

Wales: National Assembly Elections

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Monday 18th June 2012 Grand Committee

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I begin by declaring an interest as I am in receipt of an Assembly pension. I am also on the board of the Wales Governance Centre, which is part of Cardiff University and is partly funded by the Assembly Commission.

The point I start from is diametrically opposed to that expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan. As a Liberal Democrat, I continue to support the recommendations of the Richard commission for the single transferable vote in Wales. However, at the start of the Assembly, we as Liberal Democrats accepted the compromise of the list system as being the furthest we could get towards an element of proportionality, and I certainly accept that we are not going to get STV in the near future. Therefore, in general I welcome the proposals in this Green Paper.

I particularly welcome the acceptance of what will become the 30:30 split under the new boundaries, which is the preferred option of the Secretary of State. That is an acceptable compromise. It produces more proportionality, which is very welcome, but I accept that it maintains the dual system that Liberal Democrats do not believe is ideal.

I was an Assembly Member for 12 years. I am pleased to see three former colleagues here today—in fact, we are in danger of this becoming the old group discussing things again. I was a constituency Assembly Member and it is true to say that the role of a regional Assembly Member is very different. Those differences can cause friction, but there is no proposed change in the system here; we are simply looking at the split between constituency and regional lists.

As well as being more proportional and therefore fairer, I believe that 30:30 would be very much easier administratively. Differing boundaries are very complex, particularly for electors but also for political parties and people who run elections. Incidentally, a longer list in each region would also help gender balance. It would increase the number of women and ethnic minority candidates coming forward. STV lists tend to do that and in this case the list for the Assembly would operate in a similar way. It is obviously easier for political parties but it is important to remember that having coterminous constituencies for Parliament and the Assembly particularly would help civic society and electors by removing an element of confusion. In this I agree wholeheartedly with Peter Hain who was entirely right when he said:

“Having different boundaries creates a great deal of confusion for voters, for parties and for the wider public”.

It would also reduce the cost—more than £2.5 million over 10 years—of having to review different sets of boundaries, first for Parliament and then for the Assembly, making it almost an endless treadmill of boundary reviews.

I totally reject the idea that the 30:30 split could possibly be two-Member wards. That is a Labour Party idea which is designed to remove the element of proportionality. Proportionality was inherent in the offer made to the people of Wales in the vote that they took in the referendum at the end of the last century—a vote that was won very narrowly and that I am pretty certain would not have been won if proportionality had not been there. I believe that 30:30 would be fairer in proportional terms as it would reduce the chances of a party winning a majority of seats on a minority of votes in the ballot box. It is worth noting that in 2011, under the current 40:20 split, the Labour Party won 50% of the seats on just short of 40% of the vote. So when the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, asks us which party would benefit from a 30:30 split I would answer that no particular party would benefit but one party certainly benefits from the current system and that benefit would be lost under the new one.

I want to talk now about process. The voting system is a reserved matter—that was decided by the previous Labour Government when the Government of Wales Act was drafted. The power to decide the electoral system could have been devolved to the Welsh Assembly but it was not. The Assembly had no say in the previous changes, such as the ban on dual candidacy which came in in the 2006 Act. I know that the Assembly feels it should express an opinion. It is absolutely right that it should do so, but it is important to remember that there are no legally binding results to that opinion. As a strong devolutionist, I would have preferred the system to be written differently but that is the system that the Labour Government gave us.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. Would the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, agree that, despite the fact that there are no legal powers within the Government of Wales Acts for the Assembly to have organised consent, the devolution principle and its constitutional basis must surely point to consent being obtained in one way or another from the National Assembly for changes to its own structure?

[Baroness Randerson]

That sets an interesting train of thought. As the legislation currently stands, we would move to 30:30 under the current Government of Wales Act. Would consent be needed to adhere to the current legislation? I do not think that would necessarily be the case. The concept of Assembly consent—which has never come up before in this context, so far as I can recall—is desirable and I would hope it would happen, but it does not necessarily follow that it has to be because of the status of the current legislation.

I want to deal with the other issues of significance in this paper. A really important issue is the end of the ban on dual candidacy. In 1999 and 2003, I was a candidate for the list and for constituency seats, along with members of all other parties—including the Labour Party. Dual candidacy ensured vibrant energetic campaigns in individual constituencies. Candidates who knew that they were not likely to win a constituency would nevertheless fight hard in an individual constituency because it contributed to the list campaign. The loss of dual candidacy reduced the level of campaigning, particularly as regards the list vote. As a result, we had a loss of democracy in Wales.

The ban came out of the ether, as far as I could see. It seemed to be a purely political measure introduced in 2006 by the Labour Party, and it clearly penalised smaller parties. Think about the mathematics. A party has to have 40 constituency candidates; and now, under the current system, with a ban on dual candidacy, it probably has to have another 25, with five candidates for each of the five regions. Under the old system, if you stood as a candidate in both a constituency and for the list, you could, as a party probably get away with a slate of 40 candidates. Now you have to have effectively 65. That makes the situation difficult for small parties, and the system was designed to do that.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Surely, if a party cannot manage to get even 65 candidates to stand, it does not deserve to get elected Members? Small parties surely deserve small representation.

[Baroness Randerson]

I do not agree with the noble Lord at all. In a vigorous democracy, parties have to start to develop and form.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

And recruit.

[Baroness Randerson]

You should not put hurdles in their way. I believe in a developing democracy. I should like there to be a world where the Liberal Democrats were in a majority Government and ran everything. Would it not be wonderful? However, I accept that that is not going to happen on a regular basis in a democracy; and a vigorous democracy should not put hurdles in the way of the development of smaller political parties. One of the joys of devolution has been that new forms of politics have been developing. They may be transitory, but the important thing is that we have more variety in our politics.

It is worth noting—and that intervention was useful—that there has been no such ban on dual candidacy in, for example, Scotland or the London Assembly.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I am sorry to intervene. Does the noble Baroness not know that I have tried twice to get such a ban, whereby Scotland comes into line with Wales? I tried it under a Labour Government, and the noble Lord, Lord Evans—astonishingly—argued for it in Wales and against it in Scotland. I then raised the issue under the coalition Government. I cannot remember but I think it was the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, who argued a different case for different countries. I understand the case for consistency, and the noble Baroness is arguing for it, but the inconsistency that we have experienced has been very strange and has been supported by successive Governments.

[Baroness Randerson]

I think that good sense clearly held sway in Scotland. I am pleased that the noble Lord is consistent, but it was a matter of great good sense that the ban on dual candidacy was not adopted in Scotland.

The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, referred to the anomalous results that came as a result of the ban on dual candidacy. Like the noble Baroness, I am not always sympathetic to the Conservative Party and its electoral fortunes. In that situation, the party in Wales went from having a 15% share of the vote to having a 23% share—from nine to 14 Assembly Members. That is a record of success. From one constituency seat to six is also clearly a record of success. As a result, the leader of the Conservative Party, which was so successful, lost his seat. Clearly that will not improve the reputation for fairness of the electoral system in Wales.

The reason given by the Labour Government for the ban on dual candidacy was public dissatisfaction. However, the consultation did not reveal public dissatisfaction on any scale. The Arbuthnott commission in Scotland found that there was no such problem and the Electoral Commission in Wales also endorsed the view that dual candidacy was not a problem.

Finally, I will deal with the remaining issues. We support a move to a five-year term, to avoid a clash with general elections. Inevitably, if we held both elections at once, the Welsh political dialogue would be drowned out by the general election. Welsh politics would be overwhelmed by UK politics. That would not be fair and reasonable. I ask the Minister whether there are plans to move local elections in Wales in a similar way. Is there a move towards a five-year term in local government there?

On ending the dual mandate, it is certainly true that being an MP and an Assembly Member are both full-time jobs. Over the years, I have observed many people in the Assembly who held the two jobs. Some of them chose to spend all their time in the Assembly. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, who did that in the first term of the Assembly, is here today. However, some decided to abandon the Assembly and spend all their time in Westminster. Westminster coped with five MPs spending their time in the Assembly, but the Assembly, which is a slim body of 60 people, could not cope easily with the dual mandate for an MP and an Assembly Member—it could not cope with being abandoned. One person disappearing from the Assembly sometimes makes a difference to whether the Government win a vote. I recall cases when that was true. Therefore, it is important that there should be an end to that. In relation to the House of Lords, it is not an issue at the moment while we have the luxury of the pick-and-mix approach to when we attend the House. However, once we have an elected House, such a ban should extend to its Members.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, I am sure that noble Lords will be relieved to know that I will do my best not to repeat the excellent arguments that have already been put to the Committee, but I am caused to ask this question: what are we doing? This is only the second specifically Welsh debate we have had in your Lordships’ House during this Parliament, and what are we debating? Are we debating the impact of the double-dip recession on the people of Wales, a recession made in Downing Street? No, we are not. Are we debating the lack of economic growth or high unemployment? No, we are not. Are we debating the mean and spiteful cuts in benefit support for disabled people and the poorest people in Wales? No, we are not. Are we debating the Remploy factory closures, which will see hundreds of disabled people thrown out of work, and who will probably never get another job in their lives? No, we are not debating any of these things. Instead, we are debating constitutional reform again. I feel sure that I can report to noble Lords that in the pubs and clubs of my former constituency of Islwyn, they will be talking about nothing else. While hard-pressed and hard-working families struggle to make ends meet and keep their heads above water, this Government seem to be obsessed with constitutional change.

It was only on 11 October last year that the Welsh Secretary, Mrs Cheryl Gillan, set up the Silk commission and gave it two tasks. First, it was charged with reviewing the case for the devolution of fiscal powers to the National Assembly, on which it was asked to report by the autumn of this year. Secondly, it was given the task of reviewing the powers of the National Assembly, on which it is to report by 2013. Barely six months later, finding that she cannot wait for the commission’s report, the Welsh Secretary has surfaced once again, this time with a Green Paper on the future electoral arrangements for the National Assembly for Wales. How I wish the Welsh Secretary were here to answer the debate this afternoon. Although it is not possible, it would be far better than meeting Peers behind closed doors. However, we are fortunate that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, will respond. I know that I am not alone in admiring and respecting the Minister, who is held in high regard and with a deal of affection on all sides of the House. I feel sorry for him now that he has been asked to front-up the Green Paper for the Secretary of State for Wales.

I begin by asking the Minister what discussions the Secretary of State had with Paul Silk and his commission before embarking on the exercise of producing the Green Paper. Did she ask commission members what they thought of the idea of producing a Green Paper while they were in the middle of their deliberations? Did the commission consider that the Green Paper would undermine its task? What opinions and advice did the commission give to the Secretary of State? Will the Minister give us a full report of the discussions that took place between the Secretary of State and the commission, and perhaps also publish all correspondence on the matter? I suspect that while the Silk commission was busy carrying out Mrs Gillan’s task, she bypassed it and published the Green Paper.

The Government are obsessed with tinkering with the British constitution while bread and butter issues that affect most people I know are marginalised. For the past two years since they have been in government, this has been their main thrust.

[Baroness Randerson]

I was very interested in what the noble Lord said. Does he agree therefore that the Labour Party was obsessed with tinkering with the British constitution when it introduced devolution and other significant changes, including to this House?

[Lord Touhig]

There is a huge difference between what the Labour Party did in government and what this Government are doing. I shall develop the argument and thank the noble Baroness for allowing me to do so. For the past two years, the main thrust of the Government’s legislative programme has been about constitutional change. For a start, we had the biggest act of electoral gerrymandering—the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, was more generous than me about this—with the Bill to reduce the number of parliamentary seats. It was all done for party advantage. The legislation was put forward by the Conservatives and warmly embraced by the Liberal Democrats. Government MPs and Peers trooped through the Division Lobbies time and again to reduce the number of representatives from Wales by a massive 25%. While the Labour Party and others valiantly tried to defend Wales, we witnessed the enthusiasm with which the Conservatives and Lib Dems forced through the reduction in the number of Welsh MPs.

How quickly that enthusiasm has evaporated. It evaporated when the Boundary Commission completed its review and produced the first draft of its report on 30 new parliamentary seats in Wales. If the report is accepted, Conservative and Liberal Democrat representation from Wales in Westminster will be all but wiped out. I judge that the governing parties are not as enthusiastic as they were about reducing the number of Members of Parliament for Wales.

The Fixed-term Parliaments Bill was designed to keep this failing Government in office no matter what happened. As a result, it is no longer enough for a Government to lose the confidence of the House of Commons before they lose office. It is now necessary for two-thirds of the Members of Parliament to vote to throw them out of office. The Bill is a blemish and a stain on Great Britain’s long and cherished democratic system of parliamentary democracy.

Here in the United Kingdom, we are proud of our past. We are proud of the fact that we moved from empire to Commonwealth. We see ourselves as the fountainhead of democratic government, which we tell ourselves is the envy of the world. We were encouraged and flattered when many newly independent Commonwealth countries followed our example of a representative parliamentary democracy. However, I contend that if the Government of one of our Commonwealth partners were to use such a blatant act of gerrymandering to stay in office, Great Britain would be the first to challenge and charge them. I have no doubt that the Liberal Democrats would be at the forefront of such a condemnation and would probably want that country thrown out of the Commonwealth. What high ideals and great principles a once great party of liberty has traded for a handful of ministerial red boxes.

In the middle of all this, we have the referendum in Wales on more powers for the National Assembly. I had some reservations about this, not so much about passing over more powers to the Assembly but about the fact that it represented a further piecemeal tinkering with our constitution, chipping away here and there rather than looking at the big picture. Capping this constitutional onslaught, we have the Clegg Bill to abolish your Lordships’ House and give our country 400 more paid politicians, who will have guaranteed highly paid jobs for 15 years, doubtless with a pension. I know people who would like a job—any job—let alone one guaranteed for 15 years. The Remploy workers would certainly like a job guaranteed for the next 15 years.

Finally, as my noble friend Lady Morgan of Ely said, we have the elephant in the room: a referendum in Scotland that could see our union split apart. Will all this constitutional tinkering never end? The Minister could do no better than go away from this debate today, reread this little blue book—I am sure he has already read it—and take up its sound advice. It recommends that we have a constitutional convention looking at the whole of the constitution of the United Kingdom, and stop this piecemeal tinkering with our constitution.

This Green Paper is a bit thin. It poses four questions, but why so few? If we must go through this process, there are many more questions that ought to be asked and answered. As the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, said, now that the National Assembly has primary lawmaking powers, is it able to scrutinise the Executive and hold it to account? I am certainly not suggesting more Assembly Members—although I know that some people think we should have at least 80—I am simply asking whether, in view of the major lawmaking powers now held by the National Assembly, its Members can adequately scrutinise legislation. Can the Opposition hold the Welsh Government to account in a way that we would want them to do?

Moving on, should we not be asking about the system for electing Members of National Assembly? Frankly, the present system is barmy. I know it was introduced by my party; then again, madness and being a member of the Labour Party are not necessarily mutually disqualifying. It is a barmy system. In Wales we have 40 first past the post elected Assembly Members. On top of that, we have an electoral top-up system of 20 Members, which gives the party with the most votes no seats and the party with the least votes seats.

Take the last election: setting aside the election of 40 first past the post seats—I know some of your Lordships believe we should have a different system, as has been well articulated today—in the election for the 20 top-up Members of the National Assembly, the Labour Party polled 37% of the vote and got two seats. The Liberal Democrats, with 8% of the vote, got four seats, and the Conservatives, with 23% of the vote, got eight seats. In the North Wales region, Labour got 32% of the vote and no seats. The Liberal Democrats got 6% of the vote and one seat. In South Wales Central, Labour won 41% of the vote and gained no seats. The Conservatives won 22% and gained two seats and the Liberal Democrats, with 8%, got one seat. South Wales West was even more bizarre. Labour won a massive 46% of the vote and did not gain a single seat. The Liberal Democrats, with 7% of the vote, got a seat.

Is it not funny how the Liberal Democrats always gain the lowest vote but always end up as winners? I am sure their Conservative colleagues in government have come to understand that that is their working relationship. Certainly, it is a puzzle to me. I suppose it is what happens when you have coalitions. I just hope that the leader of my party will recognise that those who get the lowest votes often end up on top in these kinds of situations.

The electorate of Wales do not understand the present system, so why does the Green Paper not consult them? Further, if we are to have a PR element— I favour first past the post rather than PR—why do we not split the first past the post election from the election for top-up Members? The public would then vote for the party candidate of their choice in the first past the post election, and the party of their choice in the constituency part of the election, and their choices would be elected. Giving the electorate what they want might seem novel, but at least they would understand what they were being given.

On the whole there has been a negative reaction to aspects of this Green Paper—to what it does not ask rather than what it does. It is a friendless Green Paper. Not even the Conservative leadership in the National Assembly will support it—and if the largest party in government will not support it, why should we?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

Does the noble Lord accept that under the current legislation, you cannot have the status quo without depleting the number of Assembly Members. I cannot recall without a close reading of the Government of Wales Act 2006, but I am absolutely sure that it must provide for an Assembly of 60. You could not have an Assembly of 60 under the current rules. Something has to be done and therefore a consultation is required.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

The noble Baroness may be right because she knows a great deal more about the detail of the position in Wales than I. If that is the case, perhaps I can make a plea to do the minimum necessary. Do nothing that will create problems in terms of the other things we are looking at. If it can be done, let us hold back until further consideration has taken place. I say that because the unintended consequences of constitutional reform can be very damaging indeed, as we have found in Scotland. We were told that we had a system of elections in which no party would ever have an overall majority, but of course that is manifestly not the case. As I say, sometimes the unintended consequences can be pretty dramatic, as they have been in Scotland. That is why we should think very carefully before embarking on something that could create many more problems than it is meant to resolve.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Gale]

I can agree with that. I thank my noble friend for her great speech in which she mentioned that the Green Paper expressed hope that there would be no advantage to any party. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned the voting figures and how things were working out, and raised the issue of party-political advantage. I welcome the Secretary of State saying that there should be no advantage to any political party. However, when one looks at the voting figures and the regional list results that my noble friend Lord Touhig mentioned, one sees that on an all-Wales basis Labour got 36.9% of the vote—the highest percentage—and two seats. The Liberal Democrats got 8% of the vote and four seats.

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Baroness overlooks the point of the list system, which is to put right the disproportionality of the first past the post system. In the three recent elections in Wales, the overall proportionality of both list and constituency seats resulted in the three main parties getting roughly the same number of seats as they got percentages of the vote, although the Labour Party always got a higher percentage of seats than of the vote.

[Baroness Gale]

I thank the noble Baroness for that intervention. Perhaps I may remind noble Lords that it was the Labour Party that brought in devolution and agreed that there would be an element of proportionality. We wanted a brand-new institution in 1999. I and many others in the Labour Party did not want it to look like the old Glamorgan County Council that many of us could remember, which was totally dominated by the Labour Party and had very few representatives from other parties. With the new institution we wanted to involve all parties so that everybody who voted for the smaller parties would have a chance to be represented in the Welsh Assembly. I am very proud that the Labour Party was able to do that.

Gender balance has been mentioned a few times this afternoon. The gender balance in the Welsh Assembly has been pretty good. Again, much of this was brought about by the Labour Party. We guessed that we would win most of our seats in the constituencies, so our policy was to have an equal number of male and female candidates. As a result, a good number of women were elected in the first election, and by 2003 there were an equal number of men and women. It was the first democratically elected institution in the world to have an equal number of men and women. Proportionality does not necessarily mean that you will get more women unless every party puts them at the top of the list.

As my noble friend Lord Touhig said, this consultation paper has been brought out at a time when the people of Wales have much to concern them. Many are concerned about their jobs, or lack of them—young people are worrying about whether they will get a job—and about the lack of economic growth. I refer, for example, to young couples wanting to buy a house. These are the issues worrying Welsh people today. I assure the Minister, as other noble Lords did, that they are not particularly concerned about electoral arrangements for the Welsh Assembly, which must surely come at the bottom of their list of their concerns. Unfortunately, Welsh people have much more important things to worry about.

Since the referendum of 1997 when the Welsh people voted in favour of devolution, all major changes have been made after either a manifesto commitment or a referendum that allowed them to decide how they wanted devolution to evolve. We are not advocating a referendum before any changes are made, but there should be at least a manifesto commitment in the spirit of devolution to allow Welsh people to make their views known.

The Green Paper offers four matters to be consulted on: the size of the constituencies, the ratio of list Members to the constituencies, and the retention of 60 seats, although a number of noble Lords today have mentioned 80 seats. Indeed, I thought I heard for the first time the figure of 90 mentioned. Eighty seats have been talked about in the past, but everyone recognises that this is not the time to increase the number of seats in the Assembly. The Green Paper also asks whether there should be a fixed term of five years, whether candidates should stand for both constituency and regional lists, and whether AMs can also be MPs or Peers.

We already have four-year fixed terms, but it has been agreed that this Assembly will serve a five-year term until 2016 to avoid clashing with the planned general election in 2015. Should we now move to a permanent five-year fixed term? If we revert back to a four-year term, we will get the same problems in 2020 when the general election and the Assembly elections would be held on the same day. I think that the general feeling is to hold the elections at separate times. We all know why that would probably be for the best, but it is right that we should consult on the matter. However, there is a widely held view that the two elections should not clash.

In the Government of Wales Act 2006, the Labour Government did away with what we believed was the anomaly of allowing a candidate to stand both for a constituency seat and in the regional list. That was a manifesto commitment made for the 2005 election. It was something that confused the Welsh electorate. A candidate who was defeated in the constituency could then become a Member of the Welsh Assembly by virtue of being on the regional list. It is now clear that defeated candidates in the constituency cannot gain a list seat; they must make a choice on whether to stand for the constituency or in the regional list.

Should people be able to serve in the Assembly and in the House of Commons or the House of Lords? It will be interesting to see what comes out of this consultation. There is a view that there should be some degree of overlap for a period of time because if someone who is a Member of the House of Commons is then elected to the Assembly, there should be a period of overlap to allow exchanges to take place. That happened in 1999 when a number of MPs were elected to the Welsh Assembly and stood down at the next general election. It also happens the other way around, with AMs being elected to the House of Commons.

The present arrangement of 40 constituency seats and 20 list seats, a ratio of two-thirds to one-third, is how the Assembly has been elected since 1999. If the boundaries change and the number of constituency and list seats changes from the present ratio of 40:20 to 30:30, this will be regarded as a major change, not just a minor adjustment in how Members of the Assembly are elected. The Secretary of State says in the Green Paper that the Government prefer option 2, to make the parliamentary boundaries and the Assembly boundaries the same. She states that there is,

“greater complexity in having different boundaries for Parliamentary and Assembly elections than the present arrangement”.

However, Scotland has different boundaries, which means that an analysis could be made to see if there are difficulties for Scottish electors when they cast their votes. However, to my knowledge, no analysis has been made. There is no evidence to suggest that there are problems in Scotland and therefore no evidence to justify the case the Secretary of State is making for the 30:30 ratio. We note that the Government are not proposing such a measure for Scotland.

The fundamental point of principle here is that it is for the people of Wales to decide on major changes to their electoral arrangements, either through a referendum or by a manifesto commitment. In a debate on the Green Paper in the Welsh Assembly on 12 June, First Minister Carwyn Jones said:

“I received an assurance on two occasions from the Prime Minister that there would be no change without the consent of the Assembly, and I am on record as saying that. I took that assurance in good faith and I expect it to be adhered to. However, the reality is that Scotland will continue to have different boundaries for Scottish Parliament and UK Parliament constituencies. If it works in Scotland, what evidence is there that it could not work in Wales? None is offered”.

I am very pleased to see the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, in his place today, taking part in our debate. He has confirmed that when he was Presiding Officer he too received assurances from the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State that there would be no changes to the boundaries to coincide with the Westminster boundaries. What are we to believe regarding commitments given by the Prime Minister as far as Wales is concerned? Last year we had a UK referendum on the voting system to the House of Commons but at least we knew this was a commitment of the coalition Government. Where was the commitment for this Green Paper? As the First Minister said last week, it has come “out of the blue”.

The Green Paper is before us and my party will play a constructive role by making a submission to the consultation. I understand that the Government will publish their response in November. When could we think of having a further debate on the Government’s proposals, and when can we expect legislation? Finally, I ask the Minister: why are the coalition Government reluctant to allow the Welsh people to decide on these matters for themselves? Why instead are they taking this top-down approach? It is our belief that it is for the people of Wales to decide what kind of electoral system they want. Let them decide what they believe is the best system to serve democracy in Wales. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Universities: Fees

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Wednesday 28th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, it was not the university vice-chancellors but the Scottish Government to whom legal advice was given about the limitations with regard to European Union law. The noble Lord asked about vice-chancellors. I received a letter from Steve Chapman, the principal and vice-chancellor of Heriot-Watt University, urging me to resist my noble friend’s amendments. That shows that universities in Scotland have been responsive. He wrote that universities had put in place arrangements that meant that English students were not disadvantaged if they chose to study in Scotland instead of England, including the availability of bursaries and other forms of financial assistance at a level that was at least as high as that offered by English universities.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, in the past the same EU anomaly applied to Wales. The Welsh Government have subsidised Welsh students studying in Wales, as well as EU students. Now they plan also to subsidise Welsh students studying in England. Is it the view of the Government that this would place an obligation on the Welsh Government also to subsidise EU students in England?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I recollect a similar situation arising in Scotland. I cannot indicate that the UK Government have considered the position with regard to Wales. When I visited the University of Glamorgan last summer, I got my ear bent on the university student funding issue. However, as I indicated in my Answer to my noble friend, there would be merit in all the United Kingdom Administrations responsible for higher education getting around a table, teasing out some of the issues and learning from each other.

Devolution: Wales

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 28th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I think that there has been some history of that, not least pioneered by the Government of whom the noble Lord was a member. I do not seem to remember that there was huge enthusiasm for it in the north-east of England, but it is still a very pertinent point and one which I am sure will be raised again in debates on this issue in the future.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords—

[Noble Lords]

Next Question.

Scotland Bill

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Thursday 26th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

I am most grateful. Every day I come to work in your Lordships’ House I learn something, and that is today’s learning experience. I had no idea that that was the case. Maybe at some stage—I will not take up your Lordships’ time with this now—somebody will explain to me why that was the case.

[Baroness Randerson]

Perhaps I can add to the amount the noble Lord has learnt today. It was not really the case that the people of Wales wanted to abandon dual candidacy—the Labour Party in Wales was very keen on that. Consultation produced a total lack of interest on the part of the people of Wales. However, although the system of election is better than first past the post, it is rather chancy. Not allowing dual candidacy actually increases the chances of strange results happening. For example, in the last Welsh elections the Conservative Party was extremely successful, led by a leader who was not able to be a constituency candidate because he was a list candidate. He was so successful and they won so many constituencies that he lost his list seat. It does enhance the problems of the system.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for continuing my education. I am better informed than I was when I rose to speak. I have to say that when I started in my political life, the people of Wales and the Labour Party were almost synonymous. In any event, one of the consequences of our generous devolution of power has been that with proportional representation in the political colour of the United Kingdom, parties have taken advantage of opportunities. I accept that and it is all part of democracy.

I am not arguing for maintaining the status quo because of the outcome. In fact, I pray in aid Arbuthnott. The Arbuthnott commission was set up to look into constituency boundaries for the Scottish Parliament, because there was an issue of divergence of boundaries between the Scottish Parliament and the United Kingdom Parliament, and voting and representation in Scotland. I have an extract of the commission’s report, entitled Putting Citizens First: Boundaries, Voting and Representation in Scotland. I am looking at paragraphs 4.5 onwards. In moving his amendment, my noble friend quoted from Arbuthnott. I do not intend to quote all these 12 or 13 paragraphs, but they seem to set out a very coherent argument for why it would be inappropriate to depart by law from what has become the practice of dual candidacy.

With all due respect to my noble friend, I will read the conclusion, paragraph 4.60, which in a sense contradicts some of the thinking. It states:

“The Commission believes that preventing dual candidacy would be undemocratic and agrees that it would place”—

and here I think it is quoting a witness—

“‘an unnecessary restriction on the democratic rights of potential candidates, parties and local electors to have as unrestricted a choice as possible in an election’.”.

Certainly, in Scotland, as a consequence of divergent party practice, in a situation that permitted dual candidacy, there is a belief that people took advantage. In my view, political parties just need to learn to make the best of the circumstances in which they are operating and then we can all take advantage of the circumstances, rather than changing the circumstances or the opportunities that other people take advantage of.