Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (Wales) Regulations 2013

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Grand Committee

One comment I always make to local authority colleagues in Wales is about the possibility of having local authorities in Wales co-operating for certain functions, maybe on the old county level. I can see no reason why, for example, in my own county of West Glamorgan, Neath Port Talbot should not work with the City and County of Swansea, if the demand is such. That would surely be in accordance with the broad policies of the Government and should certainly help the Welsh council tax payer. I hope that opportunities will be found to encourage local authorities, perhaps on an old county basis, to work together to this end.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I am not sure whether this is the first order that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, has brought to the Committee as part of her responsibilities for Wales—I know she has done it for Northern Ireland before—but I cannot imagine that she was waiting in awe for the excitement of this order when she took up her responsibilities in the Wales Office.

To pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, it really is beyond belief that we need to apply ourselves to this sort of detail at Westminster. If devolution means anything, surely this sort of detail should be handled down the road in Cardiff. I understand that they had a committee that looked at it for all of 30 seconds and that those who have looked at it up here have no comments to make on it. It is all detail that, no doubt, was appropriate for consultation, but it is beyond belief that a consultation on something like this should take three years. If a consultation is to be meaningful, one would imagine that all the interests would have been taken on board, including those of people who run shops.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The consultation did not take three years; that was the period following the end of the consultation.

[Lord Wigley]

I understand fully that it took about four months to receive comments from the consultees and then three years to digest what came back. If it is taking that long, surely interests such as those of shopkeepers should be taken on board. If bus lanes have an impact on anyone, it is on shopkeepers. There can be serious problems for people who need to stop and pick up their purchases.

Let me pick up the point about finance. We are told that this is self-financing. Do we therefore assume that those involved are keeping some of the money arising from the fines that are imposed? If so, who gets the money? Is it the local authority or the National Assembly? If the money is not adequate for the costs of running the new system, who pays the difference? Is it the local authority? Who pays for the appeals, for which no doubt there will be a cost? At a time when there is a tremendous squeeze on local authorities, I would have thought that the last thing they want is additional costs.

We are told that Welsh Ministers can extend the range of contraventions and are involved in the mechanics in a pretty fundamental way. Therefore, at an appropriate time—I realise that this goes beyond the scope of what we are debating today—should we not consider transferring this matter lock, stock and barrel, so that it can be handled in Cardiff without taking up our time in this Chamber?

[Lord Jones]

My Lords, I will be brief. I am grateful to the Minister for her considerate introduction to the regulations. However, do we have no statistics whatever from 2010 or 2011 on the number of immobilisations or appeals? Has the Welsh Local Government Association made no representations to the Government or to the Welsh Assembly Government? Is there an estimate of the amount of work that we are passing to local government in Wales? Do we have any insight into what the four constabularies have put on record about this change? It would be helpful for the Committee to know the scale of the work that we are passing on. That seems to be a foundation question.

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[Baroness Randerson]

Annual parking enforcement reports are already in existence on the enforcement activities of those authorities which have civil enforcement of parking. In future, these annual reports will include bus lane and moving traffic offences. Although the concern for statistics is entirely correct, and although I am saying to noble Lords that the current statistics are of limited use, in future the desire to get more statistics will be fully satisfied. There will be annual reports.

I will review what is available and consult the Welsh Government over this. If I believe that they can add anything useful to our discussion today, I will write to noble Lords. However, from what I know of the statistics that exist, they will be of little relevance when applied to the future.

On the Lord Chancellor’s powers, it was thought appropriate that provision about appeals, notification and adjudication should be made by the Lord Chancellor. This is not a devolved matter. The UK Government have worked closely with the Welsh Government to introduce the package together. The process of co-operation between the two Governments has worked well in this case. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, asked about the estimated cost passed to the local authorities. There is no estimate of the cost. The enforcement is not being entirely transferred to local authorities, because, as I have already said, the police will retain enforcement alongside local authorities. However, I emphasise that local authorities have welcomed the opportunity to enforce these contraventions. It is expected that the schemes will be self-financing within a year.

[Lord Wigley]

If there is no estimate made of the cost, how on earth can they say they are self-financing?

[Baroness Randerson]

That is the basis on which the provisions, in terms of the parking regulations, have been applied. This is not an entirely new scheme, in that this approach applies already in London, so there is the example of London to be followed. But there is also the example of how the parking enforcement has worked, and that has been very successful. For example, in Cardiff it has been possible to apply that self-financing approach very effectively. In the event of there being a surplus generated by civil enforcement at the end of the year, it must by law be spent on transport purposes. Those purposes are listed within the regulations, so it is very tightly controlled.

Local authorities have welcomed the opportunity to enforce these contraventions. They believe that it will lead to a more effective and efficient bus service and an easier traffic flow. It is not an approach that would immediately attract rural areas, perhaps; we are talking primarily about urban areas. I emphasise that local authorities are not obliged to take up these powers; they do so only if they wish. It is for them to determine the suitability of the scheme.

The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, referred to the bodies which were sent the consultation documents. The Welsh Government’s consultation documents are published on their website and were issued to numerous organisations. If the noble Lord wishes I can ask Welsh Ministers for a copy of their consultation circulation list.

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[Lord Wigley]

I am sorry to delay the Committee, but I cannot allow this point to go by. Will the noble Baroness refer to page 21 of this document, where at the bottom of the Explanatory Note there is a reference to the Welsh Government’s website? Will she look at it and decide for herself whether “www.xxxxxxxx” is an appropriate address?

[Baroness Randerson]

I assure the noble Lord that I will deal with that as a matter of urgency after this debate finishes.