Emergency Planning

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Monday 20th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mann]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what recent assessment they have made of the robustness of their system of emergency planning across the country.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) (Con)]

The Civil Contingencies Act sets out the framework for emergency planning in the UK, which the Government have a legal obligation to review every five years. The most recent review was published in March 2022, which concluded that the Act continues to achieve its stated objectives, but it also set out recommendations to strengthen the system and its planning. The resilience framework published in December sets out the Government’s wider approach to strengthening our resilience to all risks.

[Lord Mann (Non-Afl)]

Considering the crisis in local government finance and the ongoing spectre of ambulances queuing at hospitals, how many emergency planning bodies have raised major concerns about our resilience in the event of a major disaster?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

As the noble Lord suggests, we have a well-developed system of local resilience through the 38 local resilience forums. I have received no reports myself of particular concerns they have raised on this matter. It is more a matter for DLUHC than for the Cabinet Office, but I will look into it and get back to the noble Lord.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, what lessons have the Government learned from the failure to anticipate a major pandemic of the sort we have now faced with Covid? Have the Government initiated any new proposals for contingency planning ahead of major predictable crises of that sort?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

The Government had the advantage—or disadvantage—of the lessons from Covid, when they were conducting the review I mentioned. Since then, they have published the UK Government Resilience Framework, which shows a lot of frameworks. A completely independent review is also going on, the Covid inquiry, which I am sure will teach us more lessons on what to do in serious emergencies in the future.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register. Can the Minister tell us the Government’s assessment of the efficacy of the Serco contract delivering the Emergency Planning College? Can she comment on the future of the Emergency Planning College, given the suggestions that the site is likely to be sold?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

This is not a contract that I have had anything to do with. The noble Lord always asks very good questions on contingency planning. I will look into it and get back to him.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, the response to any serious emergency hinges a very great deal upon the emergency services. What impact does the Minister think the incorporation of Chinese technology and components into police force equipment is likely to have on our own resilience?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

The noble and gallant Lord will be aware that we made a Statement before Christmas about the use of Chinese technology in cameras and so on. Obviously, we are putting a lot more resources into security. This is one of the issues that is under careful consideration, and it has of course been discussed during the passage of the Procurement Bill in recent times. I draw noble Lords’ attention to the steps that we have already taken and the way we keep a careful eye on these matters.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that what is needed is not “careful consideration” but real action?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I have already described some of the real action that we have taken. I also draw my noble friend’s attention to some of the provisions in Schedules 6 and 7 to the Procurement Bill that is now going through the other House, the debates that we have had here, the debates we will no doubt have again and the careful steps that we are taking in relation to these important issues.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, the ongoing emergency of sewage despoliation and the death of our rivers and coastlines is something the Government do not seem to be acting on at all. Last year, on 8 September, the then Secretary of State for the Environment—I cannot even remember which one it was—told water companies to produce a plan within 14 days. It is 165 days later and there is no plan. I gather water companies have been told again. When are the Government going to deal with this ongoing emergency?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I share the noble Baroness’s concern about our rivers and, of course, we worked together to amend the Environment Bill on this issue. Now, she is rightly asking about the follow-up. This is not a matter for me but for Defra. However, I can assure her that our national security risk assessment looks at these issues and makes sure that, going forward, plans are right and proper.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as London’s Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience and chair of the London Resilience Forum. The focus on skills in the recently published resilience framework on training and exercising is welcome, but it is vital that this provides the skills needed and it is properly resourced. Can the Minister provide further detail on how her plans for the proposed UK resilience academy are progressing and how this will contribute to both prevention and preparedness? Also, have the Government ear-marked funding for a major exercise along the lines of Exercise Unified Response that took place seven years ago? This would provide responders from across all sectors represented on local resilience forums the opportunity to gain valuable skills in advance of needing them.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I agree on the importance of the local resilience and the testing and trialling that the noble Baroness talks about. On actual funding, I will come back to her, but the new approach that has been taken in the resilience reform and in the UK Resilience Forum meeting, that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster presided over himself recently, is on the importance of emergency preparedness. The focus on skills is also a focus in cabinet committee work on these issues. So I hope I have given her some assurance that this is work we are pushing ahead with

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, recently in your Lordships’ House we have had cause to talk about the strategic risk, in various departments, of certain building materials—particularly of certain concrete in schools but which also potentially affects our hospitals. Is that something that is caught by this resilience framework: a risk such as that, which could materialise, that covers more than one government department? If it is not within the framework, is the Minister’s department co-ordinating what the response would have to be across government if that failure of building material unfortunately materialises?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

We certainly have a co-ordination role, especially where risks affect more than one department. The work that we have done on the national security risk assessment outlines, each time that it is done, the biggest risks that we see. Having dealt a lot with buildings, I can understand exactly what my noble friend’s concern might be, particularly in relation to schools. We are looking at the risk assessment at the moment, and we will be publishing a new national risk register this year. I will take away the point about schools that she has so helpfully raised today.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that we should be more proactive in terms of the advice given to households for when there is a major crisis or emergency? We used to very clearly tell households about having batteries, torches, water purifiers and a wind-up radio and the frequencies to listen in on when these emergencies happened. We now have a website, but people are not told. Does the Minister believe that we should actually tell people what it would be useful to have? They do not have to have it but, my goodness me, if anything goes wrong, it is very useful to have those things.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

DLUHC is working with the local resilience forums to work out what we should be doing in the light of the latest developments. I agree that the focus on the website is not always great, particularly when websites go down during emergencies, which has been my own experience. I have dealt locally with people who deal with emergencies, notably on Covid. The voluntary effort that comes forth when emergencies take place and all the good things that are done are really impressive. We have to learn from that and put that into the system, as it were, for the future. I take the point about making sure that people know, by leaflets and so on as well as by websites, what they need to do in the case of an emergency.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Lord opposite talked about the website for resilience. For the benefit of noble Lords who are not yet aware of this website, can my noble friend the Minister share the URL for that website so that we can evangelise about it on her behalf?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I will certainly take forward my noble friend’s idea. I have also been impressed by the system that the mobile phone operators have that you can ring if your electricity goes down. These things exist, but the point—as expressed so powerfully on the other Benches—is that we need to make sure that people know what to do when flooding comes or there are other local difficulties. That is why we have put in a new head of resilience within the Cabinet Office and have published the risk framework. We are open to new ideas, both on substance and on communication, as I hope that I have shown.

Civil Service: Digital Skills

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Monday 20th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they intend to take in response to the Global Government Forum report UK civil service digital skills, published on 29 November 2022.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are already taking action to build digital skills at scale and have a clear road map, set out in the Transforming for a Digital Future strategy, which we published in June 2022. The road map has set a target to upskill at least 90% of senior civil servants in digital and data by 2025 and to strengthen the attraction and retention of digital talent by bolstering the Government’s recruitment brand and pay offer for specialist skills.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, the Government claim that their 2022-25 digital and data road map will usher in a

“new era of digital transformation”

for public service improvement, yet Civil Service skills are clearly inadequate to deliver it. As the NAO has pointed out, there has been

“a consistent pattern of underperformance”

in public services for many years. What will be different this time? Is not the road map another example of this Government’s wishful thinking?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

It is important to have an ambition and a road map if you are going to move things forward. We have a Prime Minister who regards the digital and data area as very important. We have set out our digital future strategy, which includes, on the point that the noble Lord is concerned about, that 90% of senior civil servants will be upskilled in digital and data through that programme. Digital professionals will also have top-up training every year. We are moving to recruit a lot more civil servants in the digital and data area; we have 4,000 vacancies, which is too many, but we are doing everything that we can to attract more people. This includes a capability-based pay scheme and much more focus on the regions, where we believe that we can get more digital talent out of the universities, often working away from London in centres such as Cardiff and Darlington.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, to pick up that last point, the Government’s own digital tsar—the head of digital services—does not underestimate the difficulty of attracting those professional staff because of the salary issue. Does the Minister think that this road map will properly address that? Is it not about time we spent less on consultants, who we are paying millions for, and more on the wages of our digital experts in the Civil Service?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I believe that is actually the direction of travel. We are bringing in more of a capability-based pay scheme, which will allow us to track and keep these people who are in hot demand in a competitive market—as I know only too well. The Civil Service jobs are very interesting; if we could sort out a route for people to come in and work on digital data, and perhaps even go out again, and so improve our skills and work on these important projects, that would make a huge difference. The establishment of the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology—DSIT—is going to make a difference as well, in setting the tone and encouraging people to come and work on the very real data and skills challenges that we now have in the Civil Service.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for the Question about skills but values are just as important as skills in the digital space. Could the Minister tell your Lordships’ House what the Government intend by way of promoting fundamental rights and freedoms in that space—whether it is the right not to be degraded, the right to personal digital privacy, the right not to be discriminated against or, crucially, the right to decisions on things that matter being made by a human being and not an algorithm?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises important points, and these are going to be debated a lot in the Online Safety Bill. In the Civil Service, we have a clear set of values—public service values. The Central Digital and Data Office is set up to look at how best to transform public services, but in a way that is appropriately balanced between using things such as AI and making sure that people’s rights and responsibilities are protected. We have the Data Protection Act and the Information Commissioner’s Office to help us in that process.

[Lord Boswell of Aynho (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, having been at one stage a civil servant colleague of the current Minister, and declaring my interest as someone who went on to become a Minister and who has a daughter who has taken the same path from one to the other, I ask if we could have a gentle assurance that the Minister will use her best endeavours to ensure that these healthy disciplines are extended to Members of His Majesty’s Government as well. If they understand what civil servants are talking about, they can challenge it and produce a better overall conclusion.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

It is a pleasure to see the noble Lord in his place; I congratulate him on his return and on his daughter’s eminence. The answer is that of course Ministers need to be educated in digital and data matters as well. We are doing our own small part in the Cabinet Office by ensuring that the induction that Ministers are given on security, for example, has a suitable data element. There is the broader point of what data can bring to growth and science. I earlier referenced the new department, DSIT, which is symptomatic of the change that we are trying to make in government to think more of AI, the cloud and data. To go back to the noble Baroness’s point, we are also trying to make sure that we are thinking about people and values at the same time.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, the British Government are lagging behind several of their European counterparts in digital transformation. Can the Minister say what she regards as the other obstacles, apart from lack of skills? Are there still legal obstacles, in that the way data is handled by different departments is different under existing Acts, or are there other obstacles that we need to tackle in order to catch up with the Baltic states and others that have gone a great deal further in moving towards efficient digital government?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I used to sit on the Competitiveness Council in Brussels, in the days when we were in the EU, and learned a lot from the Estonians—but of course they have a much smaller country and they were able to start everything digitally. I think people have admired us for the step we took, now 10 years ago, with GOV.UK, hosting all government paperwork and data. That now has 99% recognition across the UK, which I find very surprising. To answer the question, there are of course difficulties. Digital skills, which is the subject of this Question, is probably the biggest difficulty, but data sharing is also very important. We are finding this with all the various data initiatives we are doing—for example, I am working on borders—where being able to share data between companies, or to share individuals’ data between departments, is extremely important. We are gradually making sure that we are getting the right powers to do that in different areas as Bills come before your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Mann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, what targets have been set to upskill Peers of the realm?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I think that is a matter for the House authorities, but I will happily pursue it for the noble Lord.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My noble friend the Minister is absolutely right to say that countries such as Estonia and Latvia were able to leap-frog—they did not have the encumbrance of legacy technologies. Can she tell us the thinking around how legacy technology—not only the technology itself but the processes around that technology—can often hold back progress?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I can tell my noble friend a lot about what we did at Tesco on this matter. We had a spaghetti junction of old technology and what we did—I am sure noble Lords will be interested in this—was bring in systems that were compatible with one another. We gradually got rid of the spaghetti junction of technology and moved to new technology across the board. It is about those sorts of principles. Alex Burghart, the very energetic Minister concerned, heads at ministerial level the Central Digital and Data Office. It is these sorts of issues that we are looking at, so as to make sure that the transformation to digital that we need is efficient, smooth and speedy, and does not cause lots of legacy problems. I think we all know of experiences in different government departments where these already exist.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, just to balance the argument on efficient digital government, we need to be quite careful, do we not, that we do not all end up, in communicating with officialdom, talking to artificial intelligence systems or to robots?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I share my noble friend’s concern. I will say that artificial intelligence and robotics are actually improving efficiency in some of the services that one uses, such as banking, so that we move through the telephone options and find a person, but they are absolutely no substitute, to my mind, for having proper customer care where that is needed. There is sometimes a risk that we can get exclusion and other problems if we go too far over the top. That is why I emphasised the importance of this new department and the ability it will have to devote more attention to these sorts of incredibly important issues. AI can be a plus but it can also be a risk. We really need to look internationally and do everything that we can.

Civil Contingencies Act 2004 (Amendment of List of Responders) Order 2023

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 6 December 2022 be approved.

Relevant document: 24th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 23 January.

Motion agreed.

Ministerial Appointments: Vetting and Managing Conflicts of Interest

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Tuesday 24th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, it is vital that we get the terms of reference right on this investigation. Will it include Mr Zahawi’s use of legal threats to supress media reporting? Will the independent adviser examine why, according to the Information Commissioner’s investigation, Mr Zahawi deleted texts from his phone relating to Lex Greensill’s Covid loans application? Greensill Bank went on to lend seven times the loan limit to companies headed by Mr Sanjeev Gupta. A business associate of Mr Gupta also thanked the then BEIS Minister, Mr Zahawi, for his role in securing these loans. Does the Minister know if Mr Zahawi advised Greensill to put in multiple applications, and will this matter also be investigated?

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Baroness Neville- Rolfe) (Con)]

My Lords, there are established procedures for the appointment of Ministers, and by Ministers, and these are followed. This was the purport of the question we are replying to, and we need to allow the process to run its course. As the noble Baroness suggests, the Prime Minister has appointed Sir Laurie Magnus, who is the independent adviser on Ministers’ interests. As I said when I answered questions last year, the Prime Minister was then moving quickly to appoint the independent adviser. The terms of reference will give the independent adviser the opportunity to look into what he thinks needs to be looked into—having a look at the issues that have been raised and speculated on—and we have made clear that anyone in the Government should help the independent adviser with that process. On the point about the texts, the Information Commissioner has looked at that. He concluded his investigation on 18 January this year—so, last week—and he did not require any steps to be taken. He considered that BEIS had conducted sufficient searches for the relevant information.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

My Lords, may I suggest to my noble friend that any public concern about ministerial interests will be greatly alleviated if the independent adviser could, of his own initiative, institute investigations?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

The independent adviser, as my noble friend suggests, is appointed by the Prime Minister and it his constitutional position to be the ultimate arbiter of the Ministerial Code, and to decide whether a breach of the code has occurred upon the advice of the independent adviser. So it makes sense for the Prime Minister to be the ultimate decision-maker, but, of course, we have appointed Sir Laurie Magnus to take on this role and to look extremely carefully at the issues that have arisen and been reported on this week.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, the last Prime Minister but three made great play of the distinction between “people from somewhere” and “people from anywhere”. I thought, at the time, that the real people from anywhere were those who try to avoid paying their taxes and arrange their financial affairs somewhere else—in offshore financial centres and elsewhere. Could the Minister assure us that part of the questioning of the suitability of people for ministerial appointments should significantly include questions about offshore financial arrangements and tax avoidance?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

There is an established procedure that anyone who is fortunate enough to be appointed a Minister goes through, and that includes a number of questions. Indeed, when candidates are put forward to HOLAC for the House of Lords, that is also the case. Tax is one of the areas of questioning but, in relation to today’s debate, clearly the independent adviser will be looking into these matters. It is clear that the Prime Minister became aware of media reports, but when the Minister without Portfolio was appointed, he was told that there were no outstanding issues. Obviously, the details of an individual’s tax affairs are confidential, but this is an important area of inquiry.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, we should never lose sight of the fact that we are talking about a truly remarkable person, whose life story is exceptional and who is an incredible example to all ethnic minorities in this country. Bearing this in mind, should we not await Sir Laurie’s report and not prejudge the issue?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I have to say that my noble friend is completely right. We must find out what the facts are; the independent adviser is looking into this. We need due process. That is why the Prime Minister is ensuring that we look at the actions that were taken. It is also why we have the independent adviser who has now been appointed, which I think has been welcomed right across the House.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, is it not the case that while officials may bring to the Prime Minister’s attention matters within their knowledge bearing on ministerial appointments, they must have regard to the laws governing personal privacy, including privacy on tax matters?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

The noble Lord is right. The other point worth making is that, as a Minister, it is your personal responsibility to make it known to your Permanent Secretary and, if appropriate, to the independent adviser, what conflicts of interest or perceived conflicts of interest you might have. This is a process that is gone through scrupulously, in my experience, when Ministers are appointed.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, transparency is the biggest antidote to sleaze, which revolves around money. The best way of dealing with this is to ensure that all Ministers publish their tax returns. That policy can be made without waiting for any report from the independent ethics adviser. What objections can the Minister have to that suggestion?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

There is an issue of balance between privacy and the need to know—the transparency. I have often engaged with the noble Lord on these tax issues and the Prime Minister himself has said that he will publish his tax return, but moving to a different system raises quite a lot of issues of balance. I come back to my point about personal responsibility and explaining where there are these issues or might be conflicts of interest when you are a Minister, or if circumstances change.

[Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury (Con)]

Is it not the case that it is very important that any Prime Minister of the day has an independent ethics adviser and an independent Commissioner for Public Appointments? What is the point of having these officials doing those jobs unless they are allowed to get on with them—do the jobs they are paid and appointed to do—and avoid the speculation, which is completely unfounded until the facts are known?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I thank my noble friend. Sir Laurie Magnus is doing just that. He was appointed in December and now has an important case to look into. We need to give him time to look at the issues that have been raised and come to the Prime Minister with a summary of his findings, so that we can move forward. But we need to establish the facts because, unfortunately, everything you read in the newspapers is not always spot on.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has laid great emphasis on due process, which we understand, and there is an inquiry going on, which we understand. Will she agree voluntarily to bring to the House a Statement once the outcome of this investigation is known?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

Statements to the House are a matter for the usual channels. However, given the interest in this matter it is quite possible for noble Lords to raise Questions, and Statements are often made on important matters of the day. I cannot make a specific promise, of course, but I understand where the noble Viscount is coming from, and that the House wishes to know and to be kept informed.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister said, in reply to an earlier question, that it was a constitutional principle that the ultimate authority for the Ministerial Code lay with the Prime Minister, but in what way would it be unconstitutional for the Prime Minister to give the independent adviser the right to initiate his own investigations?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I think that that would change the set of balances that exists at the moment. The Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, has been very clear on the importance of accountability, integrity and professionalism, and he reissued the code with his own words to encourage that. He has also asked the independent adviser to explore the issues surrounding this particular case and to report the findings to him. I do not think that we need to move as far as the noble Baroness is suggesting, but we need to come to the right answers on these issues. It really matters that people trust our system of parliamentary democracy.

Civil Contingencies Act 2004 (Amendment of List of Responders) Order 2023

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Monday 23rd January 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 (Amendment of List of Responders) Order 2023.

Relevant document: 24th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) (Con)]

My Lords, this order was laid before the House on 6 December. I think we are all agreed on the importance of improving UK resilience, and the recently published resilience framework illustrates the need for clear responsibilities in order to drive planning activity across the risk life cycle.

This instrument will do exactly that by creating the legal basis for improved co-operation, information sharing and integration between the Meteorological Office and the Coal Authority and the wider list of categorised organisations operating at the local level across the UK. It will deliver these important changes by making both organisations category 2 responders as defined under the Civil Contingencies Act, in turn bolstering the planning activities conducted by local resilience forums in England—a further commitment of the new resilience framework.

This will ensure that these bodies are well integrated within wider emergency planning frameworks and able to collaborate in the development of localised risk assessments and to contribute information and expertise to support local resilience forums in planning for and responding to emergencies. Both organisations hold information and experience that is integral to the process of civil protection. The Meteorological Office is able to support effective management of severe weather risks, and the Coal Authority is positioned to ensure that due consideration is given to the unique risks presented by our industrial heritage.

I was amazed by this: approximately 25% of property across the UK is located on the coalfield, and the Coal Authority responds to a wide range of incidents, including, but not limited to, subsidence, sudden ground collapses, emissions of water or gas and coal tip slips, as well as metal mine pollution incidents, for which it also has responsibility. As we all know, extreme weather and flooding, which we have increasingly experienced, often heighten the likelihood of risks materialising in these areas.

The Civil Contingencies Act, also known as the CCA, was introduced in 2004 following a review of emergency planning arrangements as a result of the fuel crisis and severe flooding in 2000, as well as the outbreak of foot and mouth disease. The Act establishes a framework for civil protection in the UK. It imposes a clear set of roles and responsibilities on organisations with a role to play in preparing for and responding to emergencies.

Category 1 responders are organisations that collectively form the core of local emergency preparedness and response. These include emergency services, local authorities, health bodies, HM Coastguard and government agencies. Category 1 responders are subject to the full set of statutory civil protection duties, including assessing risks to inform contingency planning, warning and informing the public, and putting in place business continuity arrangements.

Category 2 organisations, which include the Health and Safety Executive and utilities and transport operators, are co-operating bodies and, although less likely to be involved in the heart of planning work, are heavily involved in incidents that affect their own sector. Category 2 responders have a statutory duty to co-operate and share relevant information with other category 1 and 2 responders. The Act and regulations made under the CCA create the basis for these organisations to collaborate through local resilience forums where all responders can come together to ensure effective multiagency emergency preparation and response.

Regulations made under the CCA also place a duty on responders to help co-ordinate risk assessment at their local level through the production of the community risk register, which ensures that local resilience forum members hold a consistent understanding of the hazards and threats across their area.

The CCA is reviewed every five years. The most recent post-implementation review was laid before the House in March 2022 and proposed the categorisation of the Met Office and the Coal Authority as one of its key recommendations. The Met Office and Coal Authority perform important functions in preparing for, and responding to, risks associated with extreme weather events and the coal-mining legacy. Recent examples include several heatwaves in 2022, a number of floods in recent weeks and, in the past few days, a sinkhole that has, sadly, opened up in Caerphilly. The two organisations have significant expertise and technical knowledge in their respective fields and provide critical support, such as severe weather warnings, hazard assessments, training and response planning.

While these organisations already work closely with local partners, our consultation and engagement indicated that, without their integration within the legal framework, this was taking place in an inconsistent or ad hoc way. Categorising these organisations will ensure that they are able to share information and co-operate with local resilience forums across the UK in a more regulated and structured way. This will ultimately improve the preparedness of local partnerships to respond to incidents related to coal mines or severe weather and strengthen their ability to protect the public and save lives.

This instrument is being made using powers set out in Section 13(1) of the Civil Contingencies Act, which allows a Minister of the Crown to amend the list of categorised responders. It will add the Meteorological Office and the Coal Authority to the list of responders under the Act. Importantly, these amendments do not add significant financial burdens to the Meteorological Office or the Coal Authority as these organisations are already equipped to perform these additional duties under their current budgets, with a de minimis impact assessment having been completed in December 2022.

These provisions will be implemented across the UK, and we have consulted officials from the devolved Administrations throughout the process. We also formally notified each Administration via ministerial letters of our intention to lay this instrument. Noble Lords will be glad to hear that all devolved Administrations were supportive of the inclusion of these agencies as categorised responders for the whole United Kingdom. I therefore thank each Administration for their engagement and collaboration. I hope that colleagues today will join me in supporting the draft regulations. I commend them to the Committee and beg to move.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

I thank the Minister for her helpful introduction to this statutory instrument. It is an excellent proposal to include the coal providers and the meteorological service as category 2 responders. The actual legislation is barely half a page. The rest of the documentation, both the Explanatory Memorandum and the evidence base, are extremely helpful in explaining how the emergency provision is supposed to operate in practice and the difference between the responsibilities of a category 1 and category 2 responder.

I want to raise an issue about how well that is working in practice—and I declare an interest that my grand-daughters were born very prematurely and very small and, this time five years ago, the smallest of them had been allowed home from hospital only after the first eight months of her life, with a ventilator to operate when she was asleep at night and during the day. Nobody was allowed to look after her who had not been trained by the hospital because, if the ventilator failed, there would obviously be very serious consequences. They also provided a heart monitor. At the time, my son and daughter-in-law were told to let their utility supplier know that they required emergency support in the event of a power cut. There was one such power cut—and, when you have a sick baby home from hospital for the first time, you are watching the minutes ticking by and knowing that the battery on your child’s ventilator and heart alarm is going to run down fairly swiftly.

My son rang the utility emergency number, which confirmed that they were on the register, that it was only their estate in south London that had gone out and that, in due course, a generator would be brought to them. An hour and a half later, the story was still the same. My son had to take the decision to remove my granddaughter and all her kit—which filled the car—and bring her to us, where we did have power and were able to ensure that she was safe. I therefore have a particular interest in the emergency supply of electricity, not just for vulnerable people but for those whose lives depend on it.

When there was concern in the autumn about possible blackouts this year, no matter how unlikely, to make sure that the arrangements under the CCA would work for this small group of people, children and adults who have to rely on literally life-saving equipment to keep them alive I asked Energy Ministers and Health Ministers about the registers, which are still held by the utility providers, which are category 2 providers. Disabled groups have also been asking about them. Grant Shapps gave evidence at a BEIS Select Committee meeting that arrangements are there but these individuals need to make emergency arrangements for themselves, which has not been the case in the past and which I found quite extraordinary. For clarity, the register is called the priority services register. That is the one for all vulnerable customers, but it does not distinguish the level of emergency need—and therein lies the problem. In the event of mass power cuts, it is clearly impractical for any energy supplier to provide electricity generators to lots of people at short notice, but asking residents who fall into that category to make that provision for themselves is a further problem.

What has become more worrying, and the reason why I raise this now, is that utility suppliers are telling these individuals that they need to talk to their doctors, who have absolutely no role in this at all. It is clear to many people that the utility suppliers do not understand their role in managing the register. I have also talked to two directors of public health, who are key players on any health issues in local resilience forums and have a particular role in a civil contingency situation, such as a major power cut. They say that they cannot get the right information from the energy suppliers about who it is who needs that extra care. All the focus is on the vulnerable elderly who might get cold. The particular group of people that I refer to seems to fall through the net.

Can the Minister investigate for me how this is meant to work and confirm whether the Secretary of State for BEIS was correct in his assertion in the autumn that the responsibility now lies with the individuals concerned—which seems extraordinary? Can she also confirm whether it is clear to local resilience forums what they should be doing and where they should get their information from regarding this particular group of people?

To end on a happier note: my granddaughter no longer uses a ventilator at night—it took three years—and I must say that all the support that she has had from everyone has been brilliant. But we are a family who really understand the consequences of a major power cut and how life-threatening that can be for a small but very vulnerable group of people.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I too welcome the Minister’s introduction to the SI. Certainly, it is one of the least controversial ones that I have ever dealt with, so I will not labour the point too much.

I would like the Minister to comment on how well the CCA five-yearly review works. Bearing in mind that, on Radio 4, the Environment Agency’s comments on the risk of river flooding were so closely aligned to the Meteorological Office’s warnings, I wonder what difference this statutory obligation will make. Will it have added value? The two things here that have come out of the review are so logical that one wonders why this was not done before. Will the department add other elements of the review? Are there elements that will still require action?

Certainly, there can be no reason for not adding these two bodies as category 2 responders; I am sure that both are currently working to provide information and support. The Minister said that they will not perform additional duties; they are already performing the duties, so there will be no additional cost, but I would like to know how this statutory responsibility will add to the benefit of their work.

With those few comments, I support the order and wish it well.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for this short and very positive debate. It is nice to be able to celebrate delegated legislation that is supported by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, particularly given that, in another world, when I was a poacher rather than a gamekeeper, we used to ask questions about these things together. I thank him very much; it has made my day.

I will respond briefly to some of the helpful points made. First, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, raised the very important question of how the legislation works in practice for vulnerable people such as her granddaughter, whom I am delighted to hear is now off the ventilator. A bit of good news is that there are additional recommendations in the CCA review of the legislation—the PIR—which the noble Lord, Lord Collins, referred to, which look to strengthen the requirement on the local resilience forums to consider vulnerable people, and a dedicated BEIS-led programme on power supply is part of that.

I will write to the noble Baroness with more information about that, but she is right that we should be improving things for vulnerable people across the board. I will liaise with my noble friend Lady Bloomfield, and between us we will see what we can do about the point that the noble Baroness raised about electricity and, indeed, the more general question about vulnerable people. We have a new resilience framework, and we are very keen for it to think more about the user and to have more of a whole-society approach. The noble Baroness’s point is an excellent example, if we can crack it, of what we should be doing.

The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, asked what other agencies we thought of adding to category 2. Obviously, it is important to ensure that structures are efficient and effective, and balance is critical in making sure that those important to local planning and preparation are included but do not overwhelm the system. Noble Lords will remember that I used to work in the supermarket industry. We always thought that our role was very important but, in fact, we were not category 2 responders, although we were involved in assisting in the event of terror attacks, flooding, and so on. The honest answer is that other organisations and agencies did not make the cut in terms of benefit versus burden, but if I have any more information, I will pass it on.

The point about phone use and the move to the internet is something I have experienced where I live when I am in London. Exactly the same thing has happened with Virgin Media: we have moved from having a home phone to it now being linked to the wi-fi. I think the noble Lord raises a good point; I do not know what is being done about it, but I will make some inquiries.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, talked about outstanding commitments from the review. As he probably remembers from previous debates, I am very keen on post-implementation evaluation. There are two other potential legislative changes. The first places a reporting obligation on categorised responders to set out publicly how they comply with their statutory duties under the Act. However, we think that may require primary legislation, so it will not be done overnight. The second removes the legacy role of regional nominated co-ordinators in Part 2 of the Act; the regional government offices in England were closed in 2010. That also requires primary legislation, although it is probably less urgent, given its nature.

There were also some non-statutory recommendations. We have committed to placing the national resilience standards, which set out expectations of good and leading practice for local resilience forums, on a statutory footing. We have committed to updating the statutory and non-statutory UK guidance that accompanies the Act. The requirement to produce a community risk register is to be strengthened, with a requirement for responders to consider community demographics, particularly for vulnerable groups, in preparing their community risk register. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, will be delighted to hear this and it might be relevant to her point. The multiagency preparedness activities conducted by local resilience arrangements require enhanced accountability, which is being given further consideration as part of DLUHC’s reform programme of the local resilience forums. Noble Lords may remember from the debate on extreme risks the other day that I explained that those forums had got more support and are regarded as very important.

In addition, assurance of the preparedness activities conducted as part of local resilience arrangements needs to go further than the current voluntary assessments and peer review. There are various obligations on central government departments to improve information sharing and planning between national and local, such as through a statutory duty to co-operate and information sharing paralleling what we have with category 1 and 2; there are various options that could be looked at. That needs further consideration, but I hope noble Lords can see that that work is in hand.

The recent crisis, including the increasingly eccentric weather—it was -7C in my part of Wiltshire this weekend, which is extraordinary—means that we need to do more in these areas. I hope we have made it clear that that is exactly our plan. It is one of the reasons that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster put out a major document within the last month.

Finally, what difference will the SI make? I make it clear to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that the intention of this intervention is to improve the civil protection framework and ultimately to increase the level of preparedness of relevant organisations to respond collectively to emergencies. The “collective” is as important as anything. As I said in my opening remarks, the new categorisations will increase responder understanding of severe weather, climate change and mining-related risks, and better inform our work to prevent, prepare, respond and recover, thereby improving resilience and reducing adverse impacts.

I believe that the Civil Contingencies Act delivers a strong framework for civil protection in the UK. These two additional responders will strengthen it. I hope that colleagues will join me in supporting the regulations, which I commend to the Committee.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

I thank the Minister very much for her generous response. When she writes to me—perhaps we might even be able to meet on this—could she draw a distinction between the general category of vulnerable people and those who are highly impacted by whatever the emergency is? In the case I gave it was utilities.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

Indeed. The noble Baroness made it very clear in her contribution that that was exactly the problem: vulnerability comes in different clothing and different categories. We should look at that as part of our resilience work; otherwise, there will be repeated disappointments of the kind she helpfully brought to the attention of the Committee.

Motion agreed.

Preparing for Extreme Risks (RARPC Report)

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Thursday 12th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) (Con)]

Let me start by thanking my noble friend Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom for proposing this debate, and I give my thanks to all noble Lords for their excellent contributions. I have, as ever, appreciated the quality of debate today on a matter of great significance, which will impact our children and grandchildren.

The report of the committee, Preparing for Extreme Risks, fathered—or perhaps grandfathered—by the noble Lord, Lord Rees, is of the highest quality, as we have come to expect of the House of Lords. It has the sure touch and elegant thinking of my noble friend Lord Arbuthnot, and, as he said, of the high-quality contributions he received from Members, staff and those Lords and others who gave evidence. As the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Port Ellen, said, the report was eye-opening. It was eye-opening to me as a new Minister, and incredibly useful, timely, and influential—three very big things.

The risks are many and varied. We have had mention of unpredictable solar flares, malicious deployment of technology, the supply of silicon chips, risk to biological security, the collapse of the central infrastructure. It is a long list, and we are not even starting. My own list includes international risks: Russia and Ukraine, but also China, Taiwan and Iran. I worry about the failures at home, as others do—for example, the electricity system and, which is highly unlikely but worrying and I think not mentioned, the failure of the Gulf Stream, which makes our British nation and climate what it is. If that was to fail, that would be exceptionally serious.

Because of the panoply of extreme risks and their serious nature, we are all agreed on the importance of improving UK resilience. This has to address our plans and assessments looking forward and ensure an effective and flexible response to disasters as they occur. Of course, it is not possible to plan for everything.

I had a lot of questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman of Darlington. We are working on these issues. Those include the training, about which she and I would both be very enthusiastic. We have appointed a head of resilience, and we published a review of the Civil Contingencies Act on 1 April 2022, which was taken into account in the resilience framework.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Did the Minister say that they have appointed a head of resilience?

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

Has that been announced?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I always like to be the bearer of good news from the Dispatch Box.

We are going to be updating the risk register, as everybody has talked about. I cannot give an exact date, but I can say that we are working on these issues with energy. I am delighted to be working now in this area, and obviously very keen to make progress. I do not think that I can say anything today about the very important issue of powers, because I was on the Back Benches during all the Covid measures, so I very much understand the points that have been made. We have got a Covid inquiry that is taking place, and there has to be some sort of interaction between the Covid inquiry and what we do for the future.

I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Arbuthnot for his positive comments on the resilience framework. I am pleased that he recognises elements of his committee’s recommendations within it—in fact, nearly all the recommendations were accepted in whole or in part. My noble friend rightly raised transparency and challenge. We set our commitment to both in the framework and are already working to embed the principles across my departments, and across others. As an example, the national risk register, when it is published in the coming months, will include more detailed risk information and guidance than previous iterations, and it follows the new classified version of the national security risk assessment.

Noble Lords will be pleased to know that the development of the latter involved a great deal of external challenge this time, and the NSRA is more robust as a result. My colleague the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster will be chairing the next UK resilience forum in February—just one way in which we are incorporating more independent challenge and expertise from outside government. I hope that further work on resilience this year will demonstrate more progress, and we will update Parliament through our inaugural annual statement on resilience.

The noble Lord also raised the committee’s recommendation, as others did, for an office for preparedness and resilience, and the accountability issue was emphasised by the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, who sadly had to slip away. It is a key factor of the framework and, while have not chosen to establish a new body, we are taking steps to address the spirit of the committee’s recommendations. We agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, on the need for culture change—a point that she rightly often makes—and that is already happening.

The strength and function at the centre of government build on the approach that we have got under way on things like procurement and infrastructure, and I am sure that it will lead to much better coherence and accountability in the resilience system. We are also strengthening the lead government department model of risk ownership and are establishing a sub-committee of the National Security Council to enable Ministers to focus on national resilience, because ministerial involvement is important in getting things effectively progressed. I need hardly say that the Government also agree with the report’s emphasis on training, conducting exercises and performing dummy runs as a fundamental part of our collective resilience.

We are not just going to carry on as before, as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, rather mischievously said, and I look forward to giving evidence to his Built Environment Committee on infrastructure next week and to discussing the improved way we now monitor the progress of hundreds of infrastructure projects.

I am sorry that it has been over a year since the committee’s report was published, but the Government, as I have already outlined, have taken a number of steps to address the points that were raised. It is worth reiterating three key themes. On finalising a new classified national security risk assessment, the changes were informed by recommendations from the committee, but also by an external review from the Royal Academy of Engineering in September 2021. The intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Mair, showed the importance of bringing in the engineers.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I apologise for interrupting the Minister but one of the key points is about the methodology adopted for the NSRA, and one of the key issues that appears to be emerging is that the Government do not seem to be committing to go beyond a five-year horizon. What assurance can the Minister give about the methodology that is going to be used, and whether we are going to be looking further into the future?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I think the noble Lord is right that the main focus is on the next five years, but I will perhaps come back to him to discuss that point further. It is clear from what I have been saying that we are looking at extreme risks, and they are not necessarily going to arrive tomorrow, so I understand and sympathise with the point he has made.

The second step is strengthening the crisis and resilience structures in the Cabinet Office with the creation, as I have said, of the resilience directorate and the COBRA unit. We are responsible for resilience planning and national crisis response, working closely with departments which have sectoral responsibilities. This includes identifying, planning and preparing for risks, and building capacity to respond effectively. The changes to how it is organised will help to ensure that the Government have the capacity and capability to respond to emergencies, which is obviously particularly important in the wake of Covid-19.

Thirdly, we are working to improve our resilience to chronic risks and vulnerabilities, such as climate change—which was emphasised by the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso—and artificial intelligence. We have recognised that this type of risk poses continuous challenges over time to communities, the economy and security, and requires a different type of response to more acute risks, such as flooding or terrorism.

The scale of the risks we face has required a new strategic approach to resilience. That is why we published the UK Government Resilience Framework in December, which previously had the working title of “national resilience strategy”, to respond to a point made by several noble Lords. It is a new strategy which is already being implemented across government. It reflects our ongoing commitment to resilience which we made in last year’s integrated review, and the new strategic approach will be reflected in further publications this year, with the refreshed national risk register, the updated biological security strategy, and the update to the integrated review itself, which has also been promised.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

The noble Baroness has given us some good information about progress being made but, as the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, said in his introduction, this is all a question of when it is going to happen and having some independent monitoring of progress. Does she not think that it would be a good idea to have something independent, rather like the Infrastructure and Projects Authority, as I mentioned? I can quiz her further when she comes to meet our Select Committee next week, but I would really rather hear it now.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention, and I will reflect further on the best way of satisfying him.

I emphasise that the framework is important and strategic. It strengthens the systems, structures and capabilities which underpin the UK’s resilience to all risks and those that might emerge. It is based on three key principles. The first is a shared understanding of the risks we face. The second is a focus on prevention rather than cure, wherever this is possible, as several people have mentioned. Some risks can be predicted or prevented, but it is more difficult to do so for others. The third principle is of resilience as a whole-of-society endeavour. Everyone seems to agree on the importance of that. We are more transparent, and we want to empower all parts of society to make a contribution, so I was glad to hear from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester about the possible role of faith groups and volunteers of all kinds. He is right about the contribution they make in crises, as I know from the work of the churches in my own local area of the Nadder Valley. Faith groups are also part of the local resilience forums. In London, for example, we have a voluntary, community and faith sector sub-group—but the key message is about resilience as a whole-of-society endeavour. Covid taught us the value of that.

Nobody has mentioned this, but central to delivery on those three principles is improving the communication of risks and impacts. We want people to better understand what they may actually experience, and what they can do to protect themselves, their families and their communities. We must drive early action on risks; that is at the core of the framework.

Some noble Lords will have looked at the framework, which sets out our ambition to 2030. It includes improved risk communication by growing the Government’s advisory groups to bring in experts, academics and industrial partners. We are strengthening local resilience forums, which has included extra DLUHC funding to improve multi-agency planning. I should say that my husband is chair of a parish council, so I know that resilience systems already assist in great detail towns and villages, and how important that was in marshalling voluntary effort during Covid. We need to build on those sorts of strengths. The measures include delivering a new UK resilience academy built up from the Emergency Planning College, thereby making world-class professional training available to all who need it. I have a lot of material on that, if noble Lords are interested. We are also establishing a new Cabinet sub-committee of the National Security Council. I suspect that we will have many more debates, because we are introducing an annual statement to Parliament on civil contingencies risk and the UK Government’s performance, which I hope will help noble Lords to hold us to account.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

Excuse me, but the noble Baroness used the phrase “the civil contingencies risk”. That is contained throughout the new framework. Can she explain what exactly that excludes, and why?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I must make progress. If I can answer, I will do so—otherwise, I shall speak with or write to the noble Lord.

It is important to remember that data cuts through everything that we do—supporting innovation by helping us be more dynamic and spot risks early. At a local level, data enables us to support mutual aid between different areas to provide additional capacity where it is most needed. Data is also informing our approach to how we can use artificial intelligence to flag up areas of vulnerability or concern. We have strengthened our effort with the joint data and analysis centre in the Cabinet Office, as well as with the impressive National Situation Centre, which is providing real-time insights about what is happening across a plethora of urgent and high-priority topics and bringing data to crisis management.

We have to be realistic. There is much in life and politics for which we can neither plan nor prepare. While prevention is a key principle, it cannot replace careful and effective management of emergencies as they occur. For that reason, the framework also proposes actions to improve response, including in areas such as cyber and preparation for risks, and to ensure that partners throughout the system are able fully to play their part. There is a shift away from simply dealing with the effects of emergencies. It is fair to say—the framework shows this—that there has been a step change in ambition. We have the structures and focus we need to do much better.

I thank my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral for kindly bringing his expertise to this debate and I very much agree with much of what he said about the cold realities and challenges. The Government’s risk-assessment approach must draw on best practice from the private sector and we have made progress on this, as I have said. The framework commits the Government to creating a process for future iterations of the NSRA that invites challenge from industry, as well as from academia, the international risk community and others. Partners from the financial services are important. In the light of what my noble friend said, we will review opportunities to better engage the insurance industry, recognising the critical and practical role that it obviously places in forecasting extreme risk and dealing with national insurance.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, raised the model of the Climate Change Committee, as did the noble Lord, Lord Thurso. It is the Government’s view that the existing committee system is the most effective means by which departments can be held to account for this responsibility. We will provide an opportunity for an overarching conversation on resilience through our new annual statement. The noble Lord also mentioned the report by the Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy on critical infrastructure and climate adaptation. The framework sets out how we will continue to strengthen resilience across both public and private sectors.

The noble Lord, Lord Mair, drew attention to some very interesting examples. I do not think we can commit to setting up a register of critical infrastructure as he suggested, but I will keep that suggestion under review. We are very much focused on investment in ageing infrastructure and all departments are expected to monitor this, so I would like to bring his expertise to the piece in some way.

The noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, and the noble Lord, Lord Harris, questioned whether the Government are providing enough money and resources. The lead government department model for individual risks means we have clear accountability for individual risks, with risk owners responsible for ensuring investment in their areas and the Cabinet Office supporting. However, the framework will ensure that resilience is considered as an integral aspect of almost all policy-making. There is devoted funding for some specific areas, such as local resilience forums, and we have achieved systematic change by ensuring that investment in resilience is embedded into decision-making across government. It is always a difficult area, but the commitment, the framework and the new Cabinet committee will make a considerable difference to prioritisation.

The noble Lord, Lord Rees, talked about biological security. Our refreshed strategy will strengthen Euro-Atlantic security. It will stimulate R&D in the life sciences sector and underpin the UK’s international leadership and advantage across the life sciences and applied data science.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, raised many questions in a wide-ranging speech, mainly about health. I will look at what she said and see if I can add anything to what I have already said about the progress we are making.

The Government have already taken on board many of the recommendations of this report with individual actions, and the resilience framework goes even further. Building resilience is truly a whole-of-society and national endeavour. We are determined to work together to be better prepared for the challenges we face. I thank the committee warmly for its important contribution to this task. I look forward to further discussion in this House on these important issues and to bringing the immense expertise to bear in making our country more resilient and better able to deal with the crises that, sadly, from time to time emerge.

Public Service Ombudsman for England

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Baroness Neville- Rolfe) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have no plans at this time to create a new single public service ombudsman for England. The Government are supportive of the ombudsman institutions and the general principles of the Venice Commission, and will consider specific proposals on ombudsman reform. We do not currently view large-scale ombudsman reform as a priority for this Parliament.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, that is a very disappointing response. We have 20 ombudsmen. It is often very confusing for members of the public taking a complaint to find which one applies to them, particularly where complaints straddle boundaries between, say, health and local government—on a delayed discharge from the NHS into social care, for instance. Putting them all together, alongside the local government and housing ombudsmen, would ensure a much more co-ordinated response and provide much better value for money. Will the Government reconsider this?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

The trouble is that combining the existing public services ombudsmen—there are several, as the noble Lord explained—would be a complex and substantial undertaking. It could lead to a reduction in the quality of service for people relying on that service during the transition period, and staff would worry about their futures. I am not sure quite what just putting them together would achieve. The key thing is to have expertise and effective ombudsman decisions, which we have increasingly seen in recent years.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I had not realised until I went into the background of this Question that we have 20 different ombudsmen in the United Kingdom. Nor had I realised that one ombudsman deals with the health service and another one deals with social care, which seems to be not very well organised. Nor had I realised, furthermore, that you have to go through your MP if you want to go to the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman. Does the Minister not think that there are a number of problems within the existing set-up that the Government ought at least to look at again?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

As I said in my opening remarks, some changes we are able to look at, and we have made improvements. On the MP filter, which the noble Lord refers to, it is designed to help complainants. MPs are able to make confidential inquiries with officials or Ministers and resolve issues quickly. In addition to referring individual cases to be investigated by the ombudsman, they can raise issues publicly in the House of Commons. The ombudsman has a democratic element. It is a parliamentary creature and I think it helps to hold the Executive to account. Of course, the PACAC takes a great deal of interest and is responsible for the appointment of the ombudsman, who is a parliamentary officer.

[Lord Etherton (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree with the view of the peer review of the PHSO by the International Ombudsman Institute, completed in November last year, that the compulsory MP filter for complaints to the PHSO in his capacity as parliamentary ombudsman is a breach of the requirement of the Venice principles that people raising complaints should have a right to free and unhindered access to the ombudsman. The evidence is that some 88% of people who mistakenly come direct to the PHSO in his capacity as parliamentary ombudsman do not return with their complaint when they realise that they need to go to their MP first. Should not the MP filter be made optional as soon as possible?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I think I have already commented on the MP filter. We do think that the international principles are important, but we also need to make sure that the existing system, which focuses very well on individuals, is not undermined. I was looking at the website today and I was struck by how this does not look only at big and well-known cases but at individual ones; for example, a man died days before his wedding to his partner of 40 years due to a hospital failing, and remedies were put forward by the ombudsman. The MP filter, a democratic element, really is important in the complaints process.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

But, my Lords, MPs are not able to do that sort of inquiry when they get something from a patient; all they can do is say, “Yes, I agree with it”, and forward it on. What we know, as the noble and learned Lord said, is that nine out of 10 people who first go to the ombudsman and are then told they cannot do it without an MP supporting them go no further. How does the Minister explain to those nine out of 10 that they have no access to redress for anything that has gone wrong?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

On the health area, there was an extensive debate during the passage of the Health and Care Act last year, and I will reflect further on the point the noble Baroness has made and come back to her. However, in some areas such as the DWP there is of course an independent case examiner, which also helps with the flow. We are talking about big numbers here already. I was looking at the figures: there were 5,330 PHSO cases in 2020-21, so it is important that we find a way of resolving complaints, not necessarily through the ombudsman. You need a combination of the two systems.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, surely moving to one overarching body would save substantial money in terms of sharing HR and administrative costs and other overheads. No one is suggesting that there should be an immediate transition, but surely a gradual transition would make a lot of sense.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

One always hears these arguments in relation to agencies; for example, we put some together to form the Environment Agency. Although there were many pluses, there was also a transition. I remember being in the Business Department when the Department for International Trade was split off. There is a transition cost, which was the point I was making at the beginning. We are talking about a Government with a lot of priorities. As my noble friend says, if we are going to have reform, this is not an immediate priority, but that does not mean that we are not looking at possibilities to improve these things all the time. That is very much what the Parliamentary Ombudsman himself is always trying to do.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I think I heard the Minister say that the Government have made improvements to the overall system. Can she tell us what those improvements are and how we might recognise them?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

Partly as a result of work by PACAC, the ombudsman has improved transparency. There are now summaries of decisions on the website in a user-friendly form. The website shows how people who have problems can apply to the ombudsman or go to other sources if they are not eligible to do so. It also allows us to keep up to date with complaints. As I said, the reporting style is more user-friendly, and that is important with complaints.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, this is about public confidence in our public services. If the system was working as well as the Minister seems to want to suggest, public confidence in our public services would be improving. Can she name a single public service, such as health, education or policing, where public confidence has improved over the past 13 years?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I am tempted to say that I will write to the noble Baroness. Obviously, there are surveys and things that I do not have to hand today because I came to talk about the ombudsman, not public services in the round, but there have been considerable improvements in many public services for business and for citizens. Clearly, the Covid epidemic has caused enormous problems, which have led to difficulties with public services.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

What about the war in Ukraine?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

As the noble Lord says, the war in Ukraine has caused problems as well. We also face a challenging demography in this country. All these things have an effect, but this Government are determined to improve public services. That is a very important objective and I am trying to help with it from the Cabinet Office; I am trying not to make difficulties worse by, for example, inspiring changes that will potentially cause substantial difficulties for the flow of casework, which is so important. I come from a business background. Dealing with complaints well is very important.

[Lord Bird (CB)]

My Lords, is it also possible to look at the fact that, if you have a financial complaint, you can wait over a year to get it sorted? I know a number of people who are finding that the financial problem they brought is very pressing, and waiting over a year is not an answer.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

The noble Lord always talks good sense. I agree with his point in relation to the public sector ombudsman, but he is talking about financial services, which are the subject of private financial services ombudsmen; they are different and operate through the regulatory system. So there is a mixture of public service ombudsmen and, in some sectors, private sector ombudsmen; they deal with things in a different way, such as through membership, fees and so on.

House of Lords: Party Balance

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Monday 9th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have, if any, to review the current balance between members of the House of Lords who take the Conservative whip and those who take the whip of the Official Opposition.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) (Con)]

My Lords, appointments to the House of Lords are a matter for the Prime Minister to advise the sovereign. There is a long-standing convention that the leader of the Opposition may nominate political Peers from or representing their own political party. Recent nomination lists include both government and opposition Peers, as well as Cross-Bench and non-affiliated Peers. The Government keep these matters under review.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, perhaps the Government will keep the following under review. I ask the Minister to confirm that there are now 89 more Tory Peers in this House than there are from the Official Labour Opposition. That is by far and away the biggest majority over the Official Opposition since the House of Lords Act 1999. Can she further do the maths, as I can and point out that, in the event of a future Labour Government, we would need to appoint 178 new Labour Peers to get the same majority as the Tories have now? I quite like the sound of that, actually. Will she further confirm that, even if we take the House as a whole into consideration, including Cross-Benchers, the Bishops and the non-affiliated, the Tories have 33% of the whole House, which again is far and away the largest majority since the 1999 reform Act? Do these figures not demonstrate conclusively that, over a period now of 13 years, successive Tory Governments have routinely abused the whole appointments system?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I cannot agree with the noble Lord. However, I can refer the House to an excellent chart provided by your Lordships’ Library which shows exactly the current pattern, broken down by party, which is very helpful. It is also true that the Conservative Party has only 34% of the seats in the Lords: there are 264 Conservatives out of 786. The most recent appointments have not changed that dial. Clearly, the relative number of Labour Peers has decreased, but of course there were eight new Labour Peers in the latest list, and I am glad to welcome them to the House. The truth is that the Government need to have the strength to scrutinise legislation properly and carry out their other functions.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that it is very important that no single party, whatever its complexion, ever has an overall majority in your Lordships’ House? Will she also confirm that some degree of qualification should be needed before a resignation list is produced, and that 49 days does not and must not qualify?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I am not sure I entirely understand my noble friend’s point. However, I will say that new lists are a matter for the Prime Minister. The normal process is followed, as noble Lords will know, starting with retiring Prime Ministers making proposals. HOLAC, a very important committee, gives consideration to the probity of those appointments, and in due course the Prime Minister of the day makes recommendations to the sovereign. When we look at the composition of the House, it is necessary to keep in mind that any adjustments have to be compatible with our role in scrutinising and revising legislation, while respecting the primacy of the Commons and the associated conventions between the two Houses. These are important points.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, at last that was something I can agree with the Minister on. Does she accept that this House works best and does its best work when it is in balance? Her figures, I thought, were somewhat selective. When the Labour Party left government in 2010, after nearly 13 years, Labour was 29% of the entire House, and the Official Opposition—then the Conservative Party—was 26%. After 13 years of government, we had fairly balanced appointments. In the last 13 years, we have had the coalition Government and Conservative Governments. The Government are now 34% of this House and the Official Opposition has only 22%. Does that not indicate the unfairness in the appointment system? It is all very well saying that the leader of the Opposition gets nominations, but they only get those given to them by the Prime Minister. The Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Norton, wisely says that 20% of nominations to the House should be for the Cross Benches. Should there not be a similar balance between the Government and the Opposition?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

In a very fetching way, the noble Baroness raises some very important constitutional questions. When giving consideration to the composition of the House, we really do need to remember what its role is. It needs to take into account the ability to scrutinise and revise legislation which, I agree, includes the Opposition Benches but, of course, the Opposition Benches are not only the Labour Benches. It needs to take into account the results of the last general election and another statistic is that the Conservatives won 56% of the seats at the last general election. Finally, and I think this is very important, the quality of individuals put forward as Peers must be taken into account.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Judge (CB)]

Is it a very good idea in 2023 for the royal prerogative, which goes back hundreds of years, to be vested in the hands of the person holding the office of Prime Minister?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I have a simple answer to that: yes.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, does the government briefing the Minister has make references to the White Paper of January 1999 on the transitional House? It said:

“the Government will ensure that no one political party commands a majority in the Lords. The Government presently plans to seek only broad parity with the Conservatives.”

Does her briefing also include what the Leader of the House said in introducing that White Paper? She said:

“The Government intend that the principles of a broad parity and proportionate creations for the other political parties and the Cross-Benches should be maintained throughout the period of the transitional House.”—[Official Report, 20/1/1999; col. 584]


If the Minister is now announcing that the Government has abandoned that policy which was agreed with all parties in the House—I was partly involved in some of the discussions, so I remember it—can she persuade the Leader of the House to come back and tell us what the Government’s new declared policy is going to be?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I am not familiar with the precise terms of the 1999 White Paper to which the noble Lord is referring. I do not think we have ever suggested that the proportion should be at a specific level. I come back to the point I was trying to make, which is that you need to have a House that can do the different things that the House needs to do. Noble Lords should also bear in mind that there are a lot more government defeats than there used to be: we need to be wary of too easily blocking the needs and views of the democratically elected House. We also need to scrutinise and revise, which is the role that we all participate in every day, but we need to respect the primacy of the other House and respect the results of the last general election.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend share my concerns about the House of Lords Appointments Commission, which seems to give us Cross Benchers that vote 80% of the time with the Opposition?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My noble friend is right. The HOLAC indeed makes a contribution through the Peers that it recommends. In fact, 74 such Peers have been recommended since the year 2000. However, this debate is on other nominations as well. Of course, they come together to give the service that we provide constitutionally to the country by scrutinising and revising legislation, which is what we need to do. We need expertise and vigour on these Benches to do just that.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, there is currently a substantial age differential between the Conservative and Labour Benches so, actuarially, this problem is going to get worse. Do the Government recognise that by the swathes of Conservative nominations that they have made they are only provoking a future non-Conservative Government to follow suit?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I certainly cannot speculate on what any future Government might do. However, one must be careful about the subject of age. Some of the greatest contributions to this House are made by some of our oldest Members—

[A noble Lord]

Hear, hear!

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I was glad to hear that “Hear, hear.” We are also increasingly refreshing the House, as we should, with new Members, some of whom are generations younger.

Cross-government Cost-cutting

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Wednesday 21st December 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Bird, on securing this debate, and thank all noble Lords for their excellent contributions. I also congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Wyre Forest, on his maiden speech, and for the apology he rightly made to Lady Brittan. He brings the benefit of his 18 years as an MP; ministerial experience; service to the Labour Party, which seems to include the happy marriage of the Kennedys, and the Amalgamated Engineering and Electrical Union; and, of course, his enthusiasm for alternative rock music.

I was interested to see in the thoughtful article by the noble Lord, Lord Bird, in the Big Issue—which was sold to me on a snowy morning in Tisbury, Wiltshire by a lady who is always there, day in, day out—on the problems facing ex-prisoners and the importance of mentoring, on both of which I think I can make a contribution to today’s debate.

Before I respond on specifics, I would like to say that, especially in challenging times like the present, the Government face a constant struggle both to improve the economy and to make things more efficient. The initiatives that form part of our efficiency and savings review are devoted to allocating resources to the right areas—of course, the NHS and social care were prioritised on 17 November—and doing things better.

Ways of doing this include “right first time”, as mistakes are costly and draining. We want less waste. We need to use new technology better, do more outside London, and encourage public servants to be creative and come up with front-line ideas that help save money and help users. As has been said, we also need fewer miscarriages of common sense of the kind that the noble Lord, Lord Bird, described happening in Stoke-on-Trent and Staffordshire, a part of the country I particularly love. I would be happy to follow up with the relevant colleagues across government and local government to look into this case, if he would be kind enough to supply further information to my private office after the debate. Life is hard but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, said, we need to minimise miscarriages of common sense.

This is very difficult, but we need to be ambitious and leave no stone unturned, so arm’s-length bodies are in scope, as well as the Civil Service. Personally, I would like to see regulators running on tighter budgets too. As everyone has said, it is a challenging time, but the Autumn Budget confirmed that departmental budgets would be maintained at least in line with those at the spending review 2021. That set UK government departments’ resource and capital budgets from 2022-23 to 2024-25. The Autumn Statement confirmed that these departmental budgets will be maintained at least in line with the budgets set at the spending review. Additional support was provided to help the most vulnerable, alongside measures to get debt and government borrowing down. To ensure that key public services continue to deliver, the Government prioritised further funding in the next two years to support the healthcare system, including the critical matter of social care, and schools. We have also recruited 32,000 more nurses compared to 2019, 4,000 more doctors than last year, and 15,000 more police officers since 2019.

The public rightly expect their Government to lead by example and to be run as efficiently as possible. That is why the Prime Minister and the Chancellor have asked departments to look for effective ways to maximise efficiency and value for money. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, I say that this includes looking at workforce efficiencies as appropriate, but the Prime Minister does not believe that overarching top-down targets are the right way to deliver efficiencies. As part of our commitment to levelling up, the Government also recommitted to a number of areas of capital spend that are crucial to economic growth and spreading opportunity, including the £20 billion R&D commitment, the levelling-up fund, Project Gigabit, HS2 and core Northern Powerhouse Rail, progressing Sizewell C, and the new hospital programme.

Maintaining budgets will of course require difficult decisions from departments. However, this is the responsible thing to do to avoid fuelling further inflation and ensure that the Government take a disciplined approach to public spending. We need to be ambitious as a Government in finding better ways of doing things and to focus spending where it delivers the greatest value for money for the taxpayer.

I pick up the point that the noble Lord, Lord Bird, made about the social costs of austerity and the knock-on effects of that, also highlighted by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, but this is not austerity. We face a very challenging time, but the OBR highlighted at the Autumn Statement that spending plans announced spending reductions much smaller than the overall spending consolidation that the coalition embarked on. Indeed, we have been criticised for some for this. Total departmental spending will be over £90 billion higher in real terms by 2027-28 than at the start of the Parliament. The Autumn Statement also announced significant uplifts in spending for key public services, including the NHS and schools, as I have said.

This is not about reducing budgets and there are no savings targets. I hope it will give some comfort to noble Lords to hear that all savings identified during the review will be reinvested within departments to help to manage pressures and protect the Government’s priorities, including vital public services and higher growth. However, we will be looking for opportunities in departments to reprioritise spending away from some of the lower-value and lower-priority programmes. Such opportunities include accelerating progress on innovation and automation, and further reducing waste and duplication.

To pick up a point made about online services, I should say that they can improve delivery of services; I know that from my experience at the DWP and elsewhere. However, as has been said, there are problems for those who cannot access the internet. That is why we are investing in the rollout of broadband, which is very important—it has taken longer than it should—and access through libraries and other such areas is also important. We need to match the wonders of the online world with making it easy for people, especially for the most vulnerable and disadvantaged.

I will use one department as an example: HMRC is identifying a sustainable savings plan which would be worth over £200 million a year by 2024-25, and that is through systematic planning, tracking and delivery of efficiency savings. We also continue to make savings by reallocating roles from London, delivering the same public service for less by reducing the rent paid in London, and spreading opportunity across the country, as we have seen in the Darlington Economic Campus, which is a good example. The Government are also committed to working more efficiency by reducing waste through tackling fraud with the new Public Sector Fraud Authority, which is now up and running.

As I said, we need to reprioritise lower-value and low-priority programmes so as to get maximum value for money. The Evaluation Task Force, which I mentioned last week, is a joint Cabinet Office and HM Treasury unit which will improve the way in which government programmes are evaluated. We can feed those evaluation results to Ministers so that they inform policy and help them do a better job going forward. The Government also require that spending proposals be developed in line with the Green Book guidance on appraisal and evaluation.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, had a long list of concerns about Defra—which, as she knows, is where I started my career. I hope she will take some comfort from what I said about the efficiency review. In most cases, department budgets are the same as last year and will be maintained, and that includes Defra’s budgets. The efficiency and savings review will support Defra to manage the inflationary and other pressures that it faces, ensuring that government works as efficiently as possible and focusing spend where it gives greatest value. I think she said that targets have not been announced but we have in fact now announced legally binding targets to protect our environment, clean up our rivers and boost nature, which I am sure she has welcomed. Finally, we share an enthusiasm for reusable nappies, so I will find out what has happened to her environment impact assessment.

It was a pleasure to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Rees of Ludlow, and I agree on what he said about the importance of resilience. We will be debating that subject in the new year with the report by the Risk Assessment and Risk Planning Committee. I do not personally agree with what the noble Lord said about taxes but in any event, luckily that is a matter for the Chancellor.

If I may, I will write to the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, on well-being and equality assessments.

The policy we are discussing today fits well into other policies, especially but not exclusively economic policy. The overarching aim of the efficiency and savings review is to ensure that we can keep spending focused on the Government’s top priorities and manage pressures from high inflation, using creative ideas such as described by my noble friend, Lord Greenhalgh—I will take away his ABC and three Rs and see whether they could be helpful elsewhere. We need departments to accelerate efforts to tackle waste and work more efficiently and creatively, focusing spending where it delivers the greatest value for the taxpayer. As I said right at the beginning, if we get things right first time, that can be helpful and make a difference.

All the savings identified during the review—it is, I repeat, part of our creative and constructive approach—will be reinvested in departments and in protecting our priorities; these include vital public services and higher growth programmes, which give us more cake in due course. The Government will report on the review’s progress in the spring but, in the meantime, I wish noble Lords a welcome break and a very merry Christmas. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bird, for giving us an opportunity to debate these matters today.

Boardman Report

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Tuesday 20th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Noble Lords]

No!

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) (Con)]

I think we all need to calm down.

The Government are currently considering the recommendations of the Boardman review and will update noble Lords on such work in due course. The register of consultant lobbyists, which complements the existing mechanism of ministerial transparency returns, has increased transparency around the work of consultant lobbyists by providing accessible online information about those undertaking consultant lobbying and their clients. Any changes to that framework will build on that foundation.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I recognise that the Boardman review had a large number of recommendations that will take some time to work through, but does the Minister recognise the point that think tanks that act as lobbyists, which are extremely non-transparent in not publishing any of the donations that they receive, and which in many ways have been very close to the Government, are in effect lobbying and therefore should be made to be much more transparent? Policy Exchange announced that, in effect, the Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Bill had almost been written in Policy Exchange, and the Minister will recall that when Liz Truss became Prime Minister a large number of people from those think tanks entered government. This is a very close relationship that needs to be much more transparent.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I take a rather different view. I think that think tanks advance democratic engagement by advancing ideas and policies, and they go up and down in time in terms of influence, as I am sure the noble Lord will acknowledge. There is no legal requirement for think tanks to reveal their funders, and it would be a disproportionate intrusion on civil society to require that of them. We are talking about charities and research institutes. It is important that people are able to bring forward their views on all sides of the political spectrum. Some are influential, some less influential. I think that helps our civic strength.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I have listened carefully to the Minister. I want to be clear from the start that I think lobbying is a legitimate democratic activity. When we are lobbied on policy issues on legislation, as all of us will be, whether by charities, trade unions, campaign groups or trade associations, we know who they are, why they are lobbying us, because that is their reason for being, and who is paying. When companies or so-called institutes are established and set up in order to lobby on a range of issues, none of that information is available in the same way. Transparency is essential to avoid any suggestion of corruption or inappropriate contact with Ministers or parliamentarians. The Minister will be aware that a succession of scandals have taken place around this issue that have caused concern to the public and impacted trust in Parliament as well as in the organisations. Will the Government accept that the lobbying of government must be transparent and that the funding of lobbyists must be transparent and properly regulated if we are going to restore public trust in a process that I believe is helpful to Parliament?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I am glad we are agreed that lobbying is part of legitimate policy development. Of course, we have the lobbying Act, which is in the process of being reviewed, notably by the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee in the other House. We also have various transparency mechanisms, such as the publication of ministerial transparency returns—we have just put out a whole load more—the register of consultant lobbyists and the Freedom of Information Act 2000. There is always a fine line between regulating to death and ensuring that we inhibit inappropriate behaviour.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, we await the response to the Boardman report with interest, but of course the National Security Bill is before your Lordships’ House now. Clauses 66 to 70 were introduced after the Bill passed through the Commons and, as I am sure the Minister knows, this concerns the foreign interest registration scheme. What was the Cabinet Office’s position on including organisations such as those that my noble friend Lord Wallace outlined within the remit of those clauses? Will organisations such as think tanks and lobbyists be included in the reporting requirements of Clauses 66 to 70? If not, why not?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I always try my best to help the noble Lord, as he will know, but although the Boardman report, which we are discussing today, covered a lot of ground, I do not think it went as far as the areas that he is talking about, which are being debated in the security Bill that is going through this House at the moment.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, the Minister said that lobbyists and think tanks should be allowed to “bring forward their views”. Who could be against that? But that is not the question; the question is surely whether the public should be allowed to know whom they represent and the source of their funds. What can there be against that?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

If people want to support charities or think tanks anonymously, that should be permitted. Think tanks are not part of government, and, as I have explained, some think tanks influence one Government, and then there is a new Government and different think tanks are influential. It is over the top to require details of all contributions; that would affect a lot of bodies, such as charities, non-governmental organisations and research institutes. When I was doing pensions earlier in the year, I dealt with the Pensions Policy Institute. We are talking about a lot of different bodies here, and it is disproportionate to require that details of everyone who supports them should be published. I find that extraordinary.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, would my noble friend the Minister agree with me that it is not the think tanks, charities, trade unions, business groups or any other group which lay down the amendments that come into legislation? We, the politicians here and in the other place, are responsible for putting down those amendments. Therefore, there is a huge amount of responsibility on us to use our proper discretion, and I think that I speak for the entire House when I say that I am sure that everyone in this House already does just that.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I agree with my noble friend, who talks very good sense. The issues are complex and are being reviewed at the current time: for example, the Government are reviewing the lobbying Act. Because the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee has set up an inquiry, which we are in the process of feeding into, we shall have to see what it comes up with. The issues are difficult, but I believe that inhibiting thought and expression, which is what I fear the noble Lord’s proposal would do, is a very bad idea.

[Lord Bird (CB)]

Could we not look at a very simple way of approaching lobbying? That is, to ask, “Does somebody make a few bob out of it?” We could just ask whether somebody is likely to receive vast amounts of money out of lobbying or whether it is for the common good. Often, it is not for the common good; it is for the good of people who are running businesses and want to make money.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his point. We need to distinguish between inappropriate lobbying, which we have sought to regulate since 2014, and other contributions to thought. In other countries, think tanks are very common; they exist to contribute to democratic debate. Indeed, in the US, they are very much better financed. I come back to my previous point: work is going on through the review by the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee and through the Registrar of Consultant Lobbyists, who, for example, made some changes earlier this year to tighten up the definition of incidental exception. We need to be careful where noble Lords are taking us on the matter.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as the former director of Liberty—the National Council for Civil Liberties—and its charitable sister, the Civil Liberties Trust. I would have thought it an intrusion into individual Members’ privacy, if each and every one had to declare that they were members of Liberty. However, in exchange for the privilege of being a charity or a not-for-profit company, is it not right that an element of transparency over donations above a certain and significant threshold should be required?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

If you declare all donations and list all the people who donate to charities—such as Liberty, to which noble Lords may want to contribute—you will find that other people will go through and seek to influence those who are donating to such charities, to contribute to them. These things are very complex, and it is not right that we should introduce those sorts of detailed rules on small sums of money, which is largely what we are talking about. Those small sums of money are helping the whole process of having independent thought, which is needed, both for those of us who serve in government and for those who serve in other parties and sit on other Benches.