Lords Chamber
14:37
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
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Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
House of the death yesterday of the noble viscount, Lord Craigavon. On behalf of the house, I extend our condolences to the noble viscount's family and friends. First Oral family and friends. First Oral I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper. I refer to my register of interest on the use of e-scooters.
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The last evaluation took place in 2021 and the results were published in 2022. But despite saying that they would the last government took they would the last government took no further action. As travel patterns have continued to change, the government has decided to undertake a second evaluation, due undertake a second evaluation, due to start this spring. This will be important to collect robust evidence on usage to inform future legislation which will finish in May
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2026. I am grateful for that answer but it begs the question how many evaluations we actually need. There are 1.2 million e-scooters currently illegally used in general
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The last evaluation took place in 2021 and the results were published in 2022. But despite saying that they would the last government took they would the last government took no further action. As travel patterns have continued to change, the government has decided to undertake a second evaluation, due undertake a second evaluation, due to start this spring. This will be important to collect robust evidence on usage to inform future legislation which will finish in May
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2026. I am grateful for that answer but it begs the question how many evaluations we actually need. There are 1.2 million e-scooters currently illegally used in general
14:39
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Conservative)
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Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Conservative)
circulation. 47 people have been killed since 2019. The status quo killed since 2019. The status quo Are mounting pavements at speed, terrorising pedestrians. Can I urge the noble Lord and the government to ensure that if the current ban on ensure that if the current ban on illegally operated e-scooters is not going to be observed, that they look to introduce a regulatory framework with proper insurance introduced?
14:39
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
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Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
Otherwise it is going to be a complete drain on the resources of the motor insurance bureau.
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Your Lordships' House will know there have been several questions on this subject in recent weeks. Certainly in one of them I referred Certainly in one of them I referred with the noble Baroness pigeons, over regulatory regimes of 21 European countries which have huge European countries which have huge variation between them on the ages variation between them on the ages at which you have to wear a safety helmet and so forth. The government helmet and so forth.
The government does need up-to-date evidence. It would have been the case evidence raised in 2021 would have informed legislation in 2023 and 2024 but that did not happen. We now have to inform ourselves. In the meantime it is clear there are hazards involved as the noble Baroness has described. Although of course enforcement is a matter for local police chiefs. matter for local police chiefs.
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Your Lordships' House will know there have been several questions on this subject in recent weeks. Certainly in one of them I referred Certainly in one of them I referred with the noble Baroness pigeons, over regulatory regimes of 21 European countries which have huge European countries which have huge variation between them on the ages variation between them on the ages at which you have to wear a safety helmet and so forth. The government helmet and so forth.
The government does need up-to-date evidence. It would have been the case evidence raised in 2021 would have informed legislation in 2023 and 2024 but that did not happen. We now have to inform ourselves. In the meantime it is clear there are hazards involved as the noble Baroness has described. Although of course enforcement is a matter for local police chiefs. matter for local police chiefs.
14:40
Lord Berkeley (Labour)
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Lord Berkeley (Labour)
Wood might noble friend agree that part of the trouble with e- scooters and e-bike rentals and buying them is the batteries? They are catching fire for no particular reason when they are not linked to the equipment concerned. Isn't it really more important to have standards of quality in the way that batteries are fixed to cycles and scooters so that they don't cause the trouble that they have caused and cause TfL to ban non-folding Their trains.
Why non-folding? I Their trains. Why non-folding? I hope we will look into this soon.
Why non-folding? I Their trains. Why non-folding? I hope we will look into this soon.
14:41
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
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Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
I thank my noble friend for that question. In respect of batteries, the Department for Business and Trade last October launched a safety campaign to raise the danger of faulty and unsafe e-bikes, e- scooters and components such as batteries for the very reason he But those of you who have seen the recent film of the spontaneous e- bike fire at Rayners Lane station will understand well why Transport for London took that view. Because anybody who was standing remotely near that incident would have been severely injured if not killed by the spontaneous explosion and subsequent fire.
14:41
14:41
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
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Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
In response to the noble
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In response to the noble It certainly isn't the legalisation by the back door. I think that it is important to say that there are many of these things as noble Lords will of these things as noble Lords will know on the streets and sadly on the pavements where they should not be of towns and cities. But in order to frame the appropriate legislation, bearing in mind as she knows there bearing in mind as she knows there is considerable variation across is considerable variation across other countries about regulation, then it is right to understand how these things are currently being these things are currently being used and how best we can regulate.
There is no intention of letting this trip because it is important. Many people including vulnerable and disabled people are badly affected by the way in which these things are used and not used. Left on pavements used and not used. Left on pavements to be tripped over and cause injury. to be tripped over and cause injury.
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In response to the noble It certainly isn't the legalisation by the back door. I think that it is important to say that there are many of these things as noble Lords will of these things as noble Lords will know on the streets and sadly on the pavements where they should not be of towns and cities. But in order to frame the appropriate legislation, bearing in mind as she knows there bearing in mind as she knows there is considerable variation across is considerable variation across other countries about regulation, then it is right to understand how these things are currently being these things are currently being used and how best we can regulate.
There is no intention of letting this trip because it is important. Many people including vulnerable and disabled people are badly affected by the way in which these things are used and not used. Left on pavements used and not used. Left on pavements to be tripped over and cause injury. to be tripped over and cause injury.
14:43
Lord Moylan (Conservative)
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Lord Moylan (Conservative)
The government is letting it drift until May 2026 with the prospect of legislation no doubt in the second half of 2026 or early 2027, who knows? There may be an election before we get to anything. My point really is this is a distraction from the real experience of these e-scooters. The trials which are going to be examined are highly artificial constructs where particular areas and locations are designated as being available for legal use of specific hired scooters, themselves usually clunky and very coloured, examining evidence from trials will tell one almost nothing about the real experience of the use of e-scooters by private individuals.
Isn't it time the government simply got on and legislated for standards both behaviour and technical standards like batteries? like batteries?
Isn't it time the government simply got on and legislated for standards both behaviour and technical standards like batteries? like batteries?
14:44
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
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Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
Gosh. I don't much care to be lectured about drift by somebody who represents a party that did an experiment in 2021, published results in 2022 and did nothing. I think in any event actually these things are becoming part of life whether we like it or not and whether they are brightly coloured The point of issue is to discover how they are being used and I think local trials are as good a way of finding out as any in various towns and cities.
Then to work out what legislation should say. I think for anybody, including the noble Lord, we should work out what the right standards are. If you look at the variety of regimes in 21 European countries. We should work that out carefully.
Then to work out what legislation should say. I think for anybody, including the noble Lord, we should work out what the right standards are. If you look at the variety of regimes in 21 European countries. We should work that out carefully.
14:44
Lord Rogan (Ulster Unionist Party)
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Lord Rogan (Ulster Unionist Party)
Crossbench. dispatch box the noble Lord the Minister with customary good grace committed to consulting with relevant authorities before any changes in the law on e-scooters. He gave us an assurance any new law would be framed in a way where it would be possible to be enforced in Northern Ireland and elsewhere. Has any representative of His Majesty's Government been in recent contact with the PSNI to enquire about the ongoing experience of e-scooters in Northern Ireland, where they remain banned on public roads?
14:45
14:46
Lord Brennan of Canton (Labour)
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Lord Brennan of Canton (Labour)
consultation in Northern Ireland but I take his point and will take it I take his point and will take it The glide amongst us on illegal and uninsurable vehicles delivering groceries and takeaways, what is the groceries and takeaways, what is the government going to do about helping the workforce who use these types of vehicles and go after the faceless
14:46
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
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Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
vehicles and go after the faceless bosses that employ them, rather than
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bosses that employ them, rather than Rather than one My noble friend makes a really good point. This is one of the subjects that the Employment Rights Bill is seeking to remedy. I don't think you can directly do it through Road traffic regulation. Although it will be the case that when there is, when there are rules for these things, it will be incumbent upon the employers of the people who ride them to comply with the rules as well as writing them themselves.
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bosses that employ them, rather than Rather than one My noble friend makes a really good point. This is one of the subjects that the Employment Rights Bill is seeking to remedy. I don't think you can directly do it through Road traffic regulation. Although it will be the case that when there is, when there are rules for these things, it will be incumbent upon the employers of the people who ride them to comply with the rules as well as writing them themselves.
14:46
Baroness Brinton (Liberal Democrat)
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Baroness Brinton (Liberal Democrat)
My Lords,
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My Lords I am very glad the Minister raised the issue of poor Minister raised the issue of poor parking of e-scooters and e-bikes. At Aldwych, Kingsway, it is impossible to get access to the bus stop, but if you are in a wheelchair and the guide dog by the passage as well. There are sometimes as many as 100 of the vehicles parked around 100 of the vehicles parked around them. Can the Minister say what powers the police has to be able to corral, perhaps it is the wrong corral, perhaps it is the wrong word, these bikes and scooters and make sure that access to buses continues?
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My Lords I am very glad the Minister raised the issue of poor Minister raised the issue of poor parking of e-scooters and e-bikes. At Aldwych, Kingsway, it is impossible to get access to the bus stop, but if you are in a wheelchair and the guide dog by the passage as well. There are sometimes as many as 100 of the vehicles parked around 100 of the vehicles parked around them. Can the Minister say what powers the police has to be able to corral, perhaps it is the wrong corral, perhaps it is the wrong word, these bikes and scooters and make sure that access to buses continues?
14:47
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
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Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
The noble Baroness makes an excellent point. I strongly sympathise with the difficulties that people with any sort of disability have boarding and delighting buses and using pavements. But the intention is that local authorities correctly control schemes so people who run a higher schemes so people who run a higher schemes are obliged to make sure the scooters and bikes they hire are collected and moved on. collected and moved on.
14:48
14:48
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
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Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
The impact of the M25 Junction 10 scheme on RHS Garden Whitley was considered from the early stages of the project in 2016. National Highways incorporated mitigation measures where possible and has considered major planned events in their plans. Major weekend closures are scheduled to avoid conflicts with key events, and extensive signage was installed to guide visitors through the works along the most direct and convenient routes.
14:48
Baroness Benjamin (Liberal Democrat)
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Baroness Benjamin (Liberal Democrat)
I thank the Minister for the answer. The RHS garden Whitley is a centre of excellence for horticultural science. It provides a green lifeline to over 30,000 schools, 5500 community groups, and 25 NHS trusts. This work relies on 25 NHS trusts. This work relies on visitor income. But the ongoing M25 A3 roadworks have caused visitor numbers to fall dramatically, by 25%. What commitments can the government give to ensure the RHS can continue their vital work by supporting the ability of environmental charities like the RHS to deliver public efforts? And will the Minister meet with me and the RHS to discuss the long-term impact of the roadworks and ensure that this charity can continue to thrive?
14:49
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
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Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
To answer the last part of the question first, I was delighted to meet the noble Baroness. It would be a pleasure to talk to her and the governments are I talked to my friend Aaron attainment about the work the RHS does this morning and we recognise the important part it plays. I would be pleased to meet her. The government is not able to use taxpayers money for direct compensation. But there are two further issues, one is the issue of land to take which RHS wisdom does have a claim for.
And should pursue. The other is that there may be other ways of helping the gardens recovering from this event. Of course the benefits of the highways scheme will be to make access permanently better because the old junction was congested for years. I would be delighted to meet her, with National Highways and the contractors to see what more we can do is legitimate and will help the gardens in every brilliant work.
And should pursue. The other is that there may be other ways of helping the gardens recovering from this event. Of course the benefits of the highways scheme will be to make access permanently better because the old junction was congested for years. I would be delighted to meet her, with National Highways and the contractors to see what more we can do is legitimate and will help the gardens in every brilliant work.
14:51
Baroness Fookes (Conservative)
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Baroness Fookes (Conservative)
My Lords... plans before they were ever put into practice, I feel very angry that the views of the RHS and many of us who felt the same were not taken into account. As a result, the RHS has lost no less than £6 million in visitor decline. By the time these roadworks are finished, it will be £11 million. May I ask the Minister if he would elaborate on what possible measures might be taken to recompense them, clearing perhaps, the longer-term, having a better scheme from the highways, who have a compensation scheme, which is ill suited to a charity like the RHS?
14:52
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
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Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
The question is about compensation schemes, and these are obviously questions about the wisdom and appropriate use of taxpayers money. I can't answer the design of the original scheme because it is nearly 10 years old. But as I said to that noble Baroness Benjamin, I am very happy to sit down with RHS and National Highways and the contractors to see what else we can do. And in particular, a better future for visitors and more visibility of the gardens and more signage and so forth when works are completed.
completed.
completed.
14:52
14:52
14:53
14:53
14:53
Lord Evans of Rainow (Conservative)
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Lord Evans of Rainow (Conservative)
The RHS is clearly well
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The RHS is clearly well represented, but if I put good word in for rural communities, and those businesses in rural communities where you have road lane closures. There is no indication with these roads as to when they will reopen. Although the road is closed, there is no work or activity seen in the road closure. A suggestion, would it road closure. A suggestion, would it be possible when that local authority planning departments close authority planning departments close the road they could give an indication of when the work will be completed? They can't do that, they give a telephone number the public can phone up and find out? can phone up and find out?
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The RHS is clearly well represented, but if I put good word in for rural communities, and those businesses in rural communities where you have road lane closures. There is no indication with these roads as to when they will reopen. Although the road is closed, there is no work or activity seen in the road closure. A suggestion, would it road closure. A suggestion, would it be possible when that local authority planning departments close authority planning departments close the road they could give an indication of when the work will be completed? They can't do that, they give a telephone number the public can phone up and find out? can phone up and find out?
14:54
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
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Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
I'm not going to go down the cones hotline route, it did not seem to be a tremendous success. That point is well made. It is a continued frustration for drivers of all sorts, apparently unattended roadworks last for so long. The power to levy lane rental was started in London and is rolling out. That is a way in which local authorities can pressure. Frankly they are not usually highway works, they are usually utility works. The number of utility works which are left open for a long time is legion.
So there is a pointer and lane rental is one of the assumptions. rental is one of the assumptions.
So there is a pointer and lane rental is one of the assumptions. rental is one of the assumptions.
14:55
14:56
14:56
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
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Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
The works on the M25 will continue until this autumn. I believe the works on the A3 will continue until 2026. They have been delayed by bad weather. I'm sure if the noble Lord asked hard enough, and discovered whether his colleagues in the previous governance to the assessment about the RHS. We inherited this scheme. The best thing we can do is finish it. As I said to Baroness Benjamin, I will meet her and the RHS with contractors and National Highways to see what else we can do for the future of what is a much prized and very valuable institution which I go to quite often, despite the roadworks.
14:57
Lord Spellar (Labour)
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Lord Spellar (Labour)
Does the Minister accept that the highways agency, as the client has a major response ability for ensuring the roadworks undertake as quickly as possible and that massive level of disruption on a National Highways network affects individual drivers but also commerce travelling around the country. What will they do about improving the performance of the contractors and also ensuring much shorter times of works on these roads?
14:57
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
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Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)
My noble friend is quite right. It is important to do it quickly. In recent years, the safety of highway maintenance workers themselves has been much considered. It has been a very dangerous occupation, and therefore some of the works last longer because they are better protected. T. I can't believe this house would not sympathise with that aim. I agree with him that it is incumbent on National Highways to manage the work to delivery as quickly as possible.
14:58
14:58
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
Third Oral Question Lord Dodds.
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Paper. Stop and search is a fundamental tool for tackling knife crime. But tool for tackling knife crime. But it must be used fairly and effectively. Getting that balance right is part of the Bastian of right is part of the Bastian of measures is critical to this government objective of halving knife crime in 10 years. In restoring public trust in the
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police. My Lords, today the Mr Chappels
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Paper. Stop and search is a fundamental tool for tackling knife crime. But tool for tackling knife crime. But it must be used fairly and effectively. Getting that balance right is part of the Bastian of right is part of the Bastian of measures is critical to this government objective of halving knife crime in 10 years. In restoring public trust in the
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police. My Lords, today the Mr Chappels
14:59
Lord Dubs (Labour)
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My Lords, today the Mr Chappels are pleased has published a stop and search starter. That refers in search starter. That refers in particular to tensions between the black community and the police. I wonder if the Minister would consider urging the police to be equipped with hand-held metal detectors as a way of having an efficient and more sensitive way of conducting stop and search? conducting stop and search?
Lord Dubs (Labour)
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My Lords, today the Mr Chappels are pleased has published a stop and search starter. That refers in search starter. That refers in particular to tensions between the black community and the police. I wonder if the Minister would consider urging the police to be equipped with hand-held metal detectors as a way of having an efficient and more sensitive way of conducting stop and search? conducting stop and search?
14:59
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
My noble friend raises an important point. The Home Office is working with industry partners and has been for a while. To develop the technology to detect knives concealed at a distance. There are trials in place. Phase 1 of those trials expected to be delivered by the end of May this year. Resulting in a prototype system that can potentially be used exactly what my noble Friend has mentioned. Chief Constable's will have to decide on the use of that downstream.
I hope it will be of help to him. As part of the National Police councils police action plan, they are looking again at the very point my noble friend has mentioned with regard to the disproportionate stopping people the disproportionate stopping people
I hope it will be of help to him. As part of the National Police councils police action plan, they are looking again at the very point my noble friend has mentioned with regard to the disproportionate stopping people the disproportionate stopping people
15:00
15:00
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
Stop and search remains a valuable tool. Because last year for example, 14%. And searches resulted in an arrest. Some 16,000 knives all firearms were found as a result. But it is also important it is proportionate and has the confidence of the whole community. One of the things the Action Plan is looking at is committing Chief Constable's to identifying and addressing the disproportionality issues, why they are happening and to give proper
15:01
Baroness Doocey (Liberal Democrat)
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Baroness Doocey (Liberal Democrat)
support to police forces to make sure they deal with the stop and sure they deal with the stop and search effectively and search effectively and New technology is going to potentially help the police so that they don't have two stop and search. It sounds very interesting and very It sounds very interesting and very worthwhile, what the three universities are doing and the results are excellent at the moment. That is very welcome. Hopefully it That is very welcome. Hopefully it will eliminate eventually the need.
And search by being able to see all these weapons hidden under clothing to such an extent they will not have to do anything. This is a very important point. Will police forces get the additional funding they will need to update and maintain the system? Crucially so they can purchase new mobile phones with really good cameras, because the Minister will know that is one of the three key elements of the scheme, so that they have the cameras and can get rid of antiquated mobile phones which most antiquated mobile phones which most of them are still using?
And search by being able to see all these weapons hidden under clothing to such an extent they will not have to do anything. This is a very important point. Will police forces get the additional funding they will need to update and maintain the system? Crucially so they can purchase new mobile phones with really good cameras, because the Minister will know that is one of the three key elements of the scheme, so that they have the cameras and can get rid of antiquated mobile phones which most antiquated mobile phones which most of them are still using?
15:02
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
The noble lady will know the settlement this year, announced in February this year finally, has given an extra £1 billion to police forces. The noble lady says it isn't enough. I can recall being police minister when the noble lady's party cut funding. I say to her it is an extra £1 billion going into policing this year. What we are trying to do is give flexibility and what she says is right about efficiencies and modernising.
That is why we are trying to ensure that we help organise better purchasing, better efficiency and make better use of Is there more activity around prevention and a public health approach such as what has been approach such as what has been attempted in Glasgow towards knife attempted in Glasgow towards knife crime? Such as programs tackling the bad actors that can lead to violence. One of the things the government committed to in its manifesto was creating a young futures system to provide safe space and support to people vulnerable to knife crime.
That includes a range of measures where people are involved in accidents and emergencies all in youth clubs, all schools, or are seen to be vulnerable. They can be referred to the youth futures system so we can look at how we can support these individuals to turn them away from knife crime and support them with the life skills to improve Online retailers and resellers are getting around the Lord to supply these weapons to young people. Can I ask my noble friend the Minister to outline what the government is doing to prevent the supply of weapons, which has to happen if we are going to stop knife crime at source?
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I am grateful to my noble friend. The police and crime Bill is currently in the House of Commons but will reach this House shortly and has strong measures to restrict and has strong measures to restrict the sales of knives online and give the sales of knives online and give strong penalties towards the illegal sale of knives and includes online police coordination to take action police coordination to take action against illegal knife and weapon against illegal knife and weapon content.
On March 27 this year the government announced a ban on ninja swords. I will bring before this House in short order measures for a statutory instrument with the House statutory instrument with the House of Commons to make sure we have a surrender scheme and then from August 1, 2025, if approved by this house, a complete ban on ninja swords.
That is why we are trying to ensure that we help organise better purchasing, better efficiency and make better use of Is there more activity around prevention and a public health approach such as what has been approach such as what has been attempted in Glasgow towards knife attempted in Glasgow towards knife crime? Such as programs tackling the bad actors that can lead to violence. One of the things the government committed to in its manifesto was creating a young futures system to provide safe space and support to people vulnerable to knife crime.
That includes a range of measures where people are involved in accidents and emergencies all in youth clubs, all schools, or are seen to be vulnerable. They can be referred to the youth futures system so we can look at how we can support these individuals to turn them away from knife crime and support them with the life skills to improve Online retailers and resellers are getting around the Lord to supply these weapons to young people. Can I ask my noble friend the Minister to outline what the government is doing to prevent the supply of weapons, which has to happen if we are going to stop knife crime at source?
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I am grateful to my noble friend. The police and crime Bill is currently in the House of Commons but will reach this House shortly and has strong measures to restrict and has strong measures to restrict the sales of knives online and give the sales of knives online and give strong penalties towards the illegal sale of knives and includes online police coordination to take action police coordination to take action against illegal knife and weapon against illegal knife and weapon content.
On March 27 this year the government announced a ban on ninja swords. I will bring before this House in short order measures for a statutory instrument with the House statutory instrument with the House of Commons to make sure we have a surrender scheme and then from August 1, 2025, if approved by this house, a complete ban on ninja swords.
15:05
Lord Paddick (Non-affiliated)
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Lord Paddick (Non-affiliated)
I declare my interest as in the register. Current interest anyway. As the Minister asked the Metropolitan Police why the new stop and search charter does not address the disproportionate number of black people being stopped and searched
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and if not, will he? I asked as part of the preparation for this question what the disproportionality rates were. I fully expected, when I find the fully expected, when I find the right page, expected that the Metropolitan Police and others would Metropolitan Police and others would be the highest in disproportionality. Interestingly it is some of the rural forces where the greatest disproportionality occurs. It is important we look at
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and if not, will he? I asked as part of the preparation for this question what the disproportionality rates were. I fully expected, when I find the fully expected, when I find the right page, expected that the Metropolitan Police and others would Metropolitan Police and others would be the highest in disproportionality. Interestingly it is some of the rural forces where the greatest disproportionality occurs. It is important we look at
15:06
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
occurs. It is important we look at the figures. One forces got a 9.4 disproportionate disparity rating compared to 3.1 with the Met Police. That is an interesting table of statistics. I would like to drill down with my colleague the police minister as to which forces are underperforming by having a higher disproportionate rate and therefore look at how we can give support and action to help understand why that is happening and how to rectify it.
15:06
Baroness Sanderson of Welton (Conservative)
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Baroness Sanderson of Welton (Conservative)
Is the government in discussion 60 hours which I should say were extended under a previous government? The last report into stop and search was in 2021, with all the section 60 searches done in the last year only 3.7% found a weapon. Do such low rates justify the damage section 60 searches caused to community relations?
15:07
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Labour)
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Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Labour)
De Glasgow Violence Reduction Unit est by the justice minister in Scotland in 2005 had a combination of tougher action by the police and courts, alongside the action referred to earlier with education, health and other areas and had remarkable success. The lessons from that can be learned elsewhere in the UK. With the noble Lord the Minister And meet with those who still work in that unit to learn from some of those lists?
15:08
Lord Davies of Gower (Conservative)
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Lord Davies of Gower (Conservative)
I am happy to take up the suggestion when time allows. It is really important that the mixture of education and youth hubs and wider support for parents and understanding of the reasons why people involved in a knife culture is important, but equally we are also focused on the online sales. The question of how to take action for police officers. The use of the technology I mentioned earlier about new technology to give police better support. There is a raft of measures and they go towards the government commitment to halve knife crime over a distinct period.
That is really important and I will look at lessons elsewhere certainly to help inform the government.
That is really important and I will look at lessons elsewhere certainly to help inform the government.
15:08
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
Stopping and searching is a vital tool in stopping those who intend to cause death and fear among our communities and I can vouch for that. The successful detection of crime is responding to local intelligence and victim statements. It can negatively affect the relationship between police and ethnic minority communities, which of course is damaging. Can the noble Lord be minister outline how the government is working with the police and particular training issues and communities to strengthen
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trusts to make sure stopping and searching does not come at the cost of community confidence? I am grateful to his Majesty's
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I am grateful to his Majesty's opposition spokesperson. Policing generally must have the confidence of the communities for which they of the communities for which they are policing. The government's commitment to increasing the neighbourhood police officers, to make them frontline police officers, and to have that more front facing community engagement through neighbourhood policing over the next neighbourhood policing over the next few years, with an additional 12,000, possibly 13,000 by the end of the Parliament neighbourhood police officers, that is a key police officers, that is a key commitment to make sure we have community engagement.
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trusts to make sure stopping and searching does not come at the cost of community confidence? I am grateful to his Majesty's
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I am grateful to his Majesty's opposition spokesperson. Policing generally must have the confidence of the communities for which they of the communities for which they are policing. The government's commitment to increasing the neighbourhood police officers, to make them frontline police officers, and to have that more front facing community engagement through neighbourhood policing over the next neighbourhood policing over the next few years, with an additional 12,000, possibly 13,000 by the end of the Parliament neighbourhood police officers, that is a key police officers, that is a key commitment to make sure we have community engagement.
15:10
15:10
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
My Lord, the regulatory case report referred to by the noble lady underlines the importance of good governance and academic freedom in higher education. The Office for Students will write to relevant providers on this important issue and offer support and advice. It will also publish updated guidance for the higher education sector, to support it to understand how to comply with their duties in relation to freedom of speech and academic freedom. freedom.
15:10
Baroness Ludford (Liberal Democrat)
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Baroness Ludford (Liberal Democrat)
I thank the noble lady the Minister for her answer. I welcome the robust backing of the education , after the hefty fine with respect to free speech at Sussex University including Paul academics whose expression of a revolutionary belief in the reality of biological sex gets them hounded and abused. I note that Sussex University is indicating defiance of the ruling. Will education ministers and not just the OfS make sure universities are persuaded not only of the intellectual duty to respectfully debate but also of the obligation not to waste taxpayer money? Especially when they are complaining Especially when they are complaining about a shortage of funding.
about a shortage of funding.
about a shortage of funding.
15:11
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
We have robustly defended academic freedom. We believe that universities are places where academics need to be able to express academics need to be able to express Where individuals need to be able to express lawful speech and for that freedom of speech to be respected. We will continue to make sure that is the case. Universities are of course autonomous organisations. But I am sure they have heard the point made about the spending of their money.
15:12
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My Lord... parent of a trans-child, does the Minister agree with me that in the exercise of everybody, in their inane inalienable right to free speech, it is in the interest of all concerned that publicly stated views about these matters are given in a about these matters are given in a measured way that enables mature and informed discussions about a challenging issue?
15:12
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
My noble friend is exactly right. I think it is wholly possible to be able to carry out the sort of important research the noble lady referenced, including in the area of gender critical research. Also to treat trans- people with the respect that they deserve and to ensure that they are able to play a full role in our society.
15:13
Lord Young of Acton (Conservative)
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Lord Young of Acton (Conservative)
In the light of the Office for Students findings that the Sussex University trans-and non-binary equality policy was incompatible with the registration conditions imposed by the Office for Students on all English universities, requiring them to uphold free speech and academic freedom, with the noble Baroness the Minister advise all universities to review their EDI policies to make sure that they do not kill lawful speech and are not incompatible with regulatory compliance requirements?
15:14
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
The noble Lord is right. Part of the ruling was about the specifics of the trans-and non-binary policy. And a failure to recognise the requirements on the University also to ensure freedom of speech and academic freedom. I hope that all universities will be looking carefully at this ruling and also will be noting the second element of it, around the governance necessary for considering issues such as this. I think all universities need to be clear that these important decisions, and sometimes the challenging complex, need to be considered at the highest level and considered at the highest level and with the strongest governance.
15:14
Lord Alton of Liverpool (Crossbench)
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Lord Alton of Liverpool (Crossbench)
My Lord.
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My Lord, would the noble Baroness
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My Lord, would the noble Baroness ask the Secretary of State to share with her the letter shared with us with her the letter shared with us about Charles Parton and Professor Michelle Shephard, who was banned from teaching a course at University College London after complaints from College London after complaints from students and the Peoples Republic of China that she showed slides China that she showed slides In a Chinese province? Is the sector not too reliant on funding from the PRC and will be noble Baroness read the warnings in the 2023 Intelligence and Security Committee report and agreed to meet with the signatories of the letter?
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My Lord, would the noble Baroness
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My Lord, would the noble Baroness ask the Secretary of State to share with her the letter shared with us with her the letter shared with us about Charles Parton and Professor Michelle Shephard, who was banned from teaching a course at University College London after complaints from College London after complaints from students and the Peoples Republic of China that she showed slides China that she showed slides In a Chinese province? Is the sector not too reliant on funding from the PRC and will be noble Baroness read the warnings in the 2023 Intelligence and Security Committee report and agreed to meet with the signatories of the letter?
15:15
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
I have met with some of the signatories of that letter. I do say the measures we are implementing as part of the wider act will further strengthen protections from overseas interference in academic freedom with the new complaints scheme, offering focused routes for concerns to be raised. The government expects universities to be alert to a range of risks when collaborating with international partners for example and conduct appropriate diligence to comply with legislation and requirements. Including potential threats to freedom of speech and academic freedom.
We will keep all our protections under review. Including confirming a final decision on the provisions related to the overseas funding measures in the freedom of speech act. It is very important that type of academic freedom and research is facilitated and promoted in our world-class universities. universities. universities.
We will keep all our protections under review. Including confirming a final decision on the provisions related to the overseas funding measures in the freedom of speech act. It is very important that type of academic freedom and research is facilitated and promoted in our world-class universities. universities. universities.
15:16
Baroness Thornhill (Liberal Democrat)
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Baroness Thornhill (Liberal Democrat)
Would the Minister join me in celebrating the fact that the vast majority of academic scholars and students recognise that freedom of students recognise that freedom of speech is the lifeblood of our universities? I do not expect my noble friend to comment but I noble friend to comment but I reflect on conversations I had last week academics in Texas, Washington, and New York. They do not have and New York. They do not have freedom of speech, they live in fear.
15:17
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
The reason why we have a world leading higher education system in this country is because of the excellence of the academic research and teaching that is carried out. And it is important we do everything we can to safeguard that for the good of our academics, for the good of individual students, and for the good of our country as a whole.
15:17
Baroness Brinton (Liberal Democrat)
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Baroness Brinton (Liberal Democrat)
Does the Minister agree that the Office for Students has acted in a quasi judicial capacity in this case? And yet it is also expected to work with universities to fight evolving solutions to increasingly complex cases. Could Mr advise how the Office for Students might balance its enforcement responsibilities with its advisory role to support the sector navigate these and other issues?
15:18
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
I think this is not necessarily unusual for regulatory bodies, the relationship between the functions that the noble Lady outlines. I'm sure it is something that the Office for Students thinks carefully about. In particular that there has been a lot of thought in relation to the role of the Office for Students with respect to freedom of speech. I'm sure it is something that they are continuing to look at.
15:18
The Earl of Effingham (Conservative)
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The Earl of Effingham (Conservative)
Can the government rightly acknowledged the importance of increasing defence spending, and given media reports of intimidation towards defence industries and the armed forces and higher education recruitment events, we must ask the Minister what steps the government is taking to ensure that such events take place without issue?
15:19
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
It is wholly wrong if those events are not being able to take place on our campuses, or if there is interference in that very important research that our universities are taking part in. That is of course something which is primarily the responsibility of that higher education institutions themselves. But I am absolutely clear that it is an important part of what should be happening in our universities.
15:19
Baroness Deech (Crossbench)
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Baroness Deech (Crossbench)
The crossbench. two sides to the freedom of speech debate. In many universities, if not most, Jewish students have been barricaded, have been assaulted, whereas on the other side, hate speech has been directed at them. Does the Minister agree with me that a clear line needs to be drawn between freedom of speech and hate speech? And while we concentrate on transgender and other issues, Jewish students are being overlooked and not protected?
15:20
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
I was able to discuss this directly with Jewish students at an event I attended here in the House of Lords at the Friday evening dinner, that I was able to attend at I don't think it is wholly right for the noble Lady to suggest that the government is taking no action. We are of course making £7 million available to the education system as a whole to tackle anti-Semitism. We have been clear in the careful approach we took to implementing freedom of speech revisions, that we need to protect students from some of the issues that she outlined.
We will continue to be clear that universities need to be places where all students can carry out their studies confident of both the protection of their freedom of speech, and in fact their ability to
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be there and to succeed in the first place. That concludes Oral Questions for today.
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today. Shall we take a moment to
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Shall Shall we Shall we begin? Shall we begin? Consideration Shall we begin? Consideration of
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Shall we begin? Consideration of comments on the private Schools Bill.
We will continue to be clear that universities need to be places where all students can carry out their studies confident of both the protection of their freedom of speech, and in fact their ability to
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be there and to succeed in the first place. That concludes Oral Questions for today.
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today. Shall we take a moment to
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Shall Shall we Shall we begin? Shall we begin? Consideration Shall we begin? Consideration of
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Shall we begin? Consideration of comments on the private Schools Bill.
15:23
Legislation: Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill - Consideration of Commons reasons and/or amendments
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Bill. I beg to move that the Commons
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reasons been considered. That the Commons reasons been considered. As many are of that
Legislation: Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill - Consideration of Commons reasons and/or amendments
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Bill. I beg to move that the Commons
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reasons been considered. That the Commons reasons been considered. As many are of that
15:23
Lord Khan of Burnley, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Lord Khan of Burnley, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
considered. As many are of that opinion say, "Content". Of the contrary, "Not content". The contents have it.
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My Lords I beg to move motion A this house do not insist on this this house do not insist on this amendment 1B to which the Commons amendment 1B to which the Commons have disagreed for their reason 1C I shall also speak to other motions. shall also speak to other motions. Motion to a, B, C, D, E, and F ask Motion to a, B, C, D, E, and F ask not to insist on the legislation. The other place disagreed on the basis that they understood about basis that they understood about public revenue.
The other place did not offer any further reason stating this reason is sufficient. Amendment seeks to allow the Treasury to exclude things for the multiplier. As set out in this house previously, these amendment are unnecessary as the powers they seek to create already exist in the bill. The measures set out in clauses 1 124 deliver on the government's grip that set out in the Autumn Budget. They represent the first step of this government's work to transform the business rates system.
It is essential that the government can progress this work by taking this first step. Further reforms will come as the government has made clear, and further information will be set out in the upcoming months. We want to start our journey with the bill. Therefore I respectfully ask noble Lords not to insist on the ask noble Lords not to insist on the amendments. Amendment 15 B to 15E will remove the decision to remove VAT on private schools to one moved to the Secretary of State in the regulations.
I have stated the government's view that this is a matter for Parliament to decide which is why we have invited Parliament to do so through the bill. For these reasons I ask that noble Lords do not insist on these amendments. Motion E asks the noble Lord Thurlow not to insist on his amendment. The other place disagreed with this amendment on the basis that the government has already agreed to publish information about the new multipliers and further provision is not necessary. The first part of amendment 13 B is concerned with a review that will consider the impact of clauses 1-4 of the bill properties of the rateable value of close to £500,000.
I understand this is seeking to further understand the way that the multipliers and business rates operate on whether the threshold serve as a disincentive to invest. As previously set out in this house, the government has already committed to looking at this question through the broader transforming business rates work. In their 40s to play this in legislation is not necessary. The second part of amendment 13 B The second part of amendment 13 B6 removal of a new class with this rate and associated multiplier for online fulfilment warehouses.
As I have set out previously, this is a question that has arisen in recent years and is something that the government had interest in. I should be clear to the house that the government's intention is to only have one higher multiplier and for that to be applied to all properties with a rateable value at or above £500,000. However, I understand that the amendment is more concerned with the ability to target online focused warehouses. I can assure the noble Lord and the house at the bill already provides the government with the ability to do additional higher multipliers in the future if required.
The noble Lord amendment explored how these online warehouses could be identified in business rates. We have looked at this again and I remain sure that the best place to tackle this is through the digital icing business rates project. This project links together HMRC and VOA data from which we expect to be able to identify online businesses operating distribution warehouses separate from those businesses who operate on the high street. I hope I can give the noble Lord some reassurance on what we have found.
The project will create opportunities to better target business rates policy in the future, by having access to more comprehensive data. Using this data, the government could in future target particular types of businesses within the warehousing sector. This is what the noble Lord is seeking to achieve. Such an approach will do this systematically using the latest data and technology and give us the best prospect of a solution which can be fully integrated into the business rates system. We are confident that this approach is preferable to one which looks to categorise how individual warehouses are being used on the ground.
Especially given that one warehouse used by one type of business may in practice be used in much the same way as another used by another type of business. Attempting to categorise warehouses by how they are used as opposed who they are used by that more accurate data on the businesses using them risks capturing warehouses used by businesses which were seeking to protect racing a far higher burden on high street retailers. I'm aware that this is something the noble Lord feels as valuable, and I hope the the noble Lord will understand why we cannot accept the amendment.
We are keen to continue engaging with him or with the three professional bodies he mentioned in his amendment. On this basis I respectfully ask him not to insist
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upon his amendment. I beg to move The question is that motion AB agreed to.
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agreed to. First of all I declare my interest as vice president of the Local Government Association. This
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My Lords I beg to move motion A this house do not insist on this this house do not insist on this amendment 1B to which the Commons amendment 1B to which the Commons have disagreed for their reason 1C I shall also speak to other motions. shall also speak to other motions. Motion to a, B, C, D, E, and F ask Motion to a, B, C, D, E, and F ask not to insist on the legislation. The other place disagreed on the basis that they understood about basis that they understood about public revenue.
The other place did not offer any further reason stating this reason is sufficient. Amendment seeks to allow the Treasury to exclude things for the multiplier. As set out in this house previously, these amendment are unnecessary as the powers they seek to create already exist in the bill. The measures set out in clauses 1 124 deliver on the government's grip that set out in the Autumn Budget. They represent the first step of this government's work to transform the business rates system.
It is essential that the government can progress this work by taking this first step. Further reforms will come as the government has made clear, and further information will be set out in the upcoming months. We want to start our journey with the bill. Therefore I respectfully ask noble Lords not to insist on the ask noble Lords not to insist on the amendments. Amendment 15 B to 15E will remove the decision to remove VAT on private schools to one moved to the Secretary of State in the regulations.
I have stated the government's view that this is a matter for Parliament to decide which is why we have invited Parliament to do so through the bill. For these reasons I ask that noble Lords do not insist on these amendments. Motion E asks the noble Lord Thurlow not to insist on his amendment. The other place disagreed with this amendment on the basis that the government has already agreed to publish information about the new multipliers and further provision is not necessary. The first part of amendment 13 B is concerned with a review that will consider the impact of clauses 1-4 of the bill properties of the rateable value of close to £500,000.
I understand this is seeking to further understand the way that the multipliers and business rates operate on whether the threshold serve as a disincentive to invest. As previously set out in this house, the government has already committed to looking at this question through the broader transforming business rates work. In their 40s to play this in legislation is not necessary. The second part of amendment 13 B The second part of amendment 13 B6 removal of a new class with this rate and associated multiplier for online fulfilment warehouses.
As I have set out previously, this is a question that has arisen in recent years and is something that the government had interest in. I should be clear to the house that the government's intention is to only have one higher multiplier and for that to be applied to all properties with a rateable value at or above £500,000. However, I understand that the amendment is more concerned with the ability to target online focused warehouses. I can assure the noble Lord and the house at the bill already provides the government with the ability to do additional higher multipliers in the future if required.
The noble Lord amendment explored how these online warehouses could be identified in business rates. We have looked at this again and I remain sure that the best place to tackle this is through the digital icing business rates project. This project links together HMRC and VOA data from which we expect to be able to identify online businesses operating distribution warehouses separate from those businesses who operate on the high street. I hope I can give the noble Lord some reassurance on what we have found.
The project will create opportunities to better target business rates policy in the future, by having access to more comprehensive data. Using this data, the government could in future target particular types of businesses within the warehousing sector. This is what the noble Lord is seeking to achieve. Such an approach will do this systematically using the latest data and technology and give us the best prospect of a solution which can be fully integrated into the business rates system. We are confident that this approach is preferable to one which looks to categorise how individual warehouses are being used on the ground.
Especially given that one warehouse used by one type of business may in practice be used in much the same way as another used by another type of business. Attempting to categorise warehouses by how they are used as opposed who they are used by that more accurate data on the businesses using them risks capturing warehouses used by businesses which were seeking to protect racing a far higher burden on high street retailers. I'm aware that this is something the noble Lord feels as valuable, and I hope the the noble Lord will understand why we cannot accept the amendment.
We are keen to continue engaging with him or with the three professional bodies he mentioned in his amendment. On this basis I respectfully ask him not to insist
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upon his amendment. I beg to move The question is that motion AB agreed to.
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agreed to. First of all I declare my interest as vice president of the Local Government Association. This
15:29
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Conservative)
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Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Conservative)
Local Government Association. This is a bill which not only fails to deliver on the government's manifesto, it is far from the reform at the business rates system that was promised, and it will be damaging blow to our high streets. We have debated the numerous issues present in this bill a number of times. I remain exceptionally concerned. First of all, about the higher multiplier that will undoubtedly hit anchor stores in town centres. The impact of the blunt £500,000 threshold on businesses values close to that mark will affect their decisions about investment.
And the government's decision to place a tax on education. We have urged the government to rethink this time and time again. But they remain unmoved by our arguments. More importantly, by the views of people and businesses across the country. I hope that anchor stores will not leave the high street, I hope this won't result in the destruction of our town centres. But the government are making it more difficult for these businesses with this blunt tool. It will hit larger stores with higher business taxes.
The government has rejected even our amendments would have allowed the Secretary of State to exempt certain businesses if it proved to be damaging. But they are so confident in this increase to business rates that they do not need that power to reverse these decisions stop only time will tell whether that confidence was misguided. A similar amendment was tabled to allow the Secretary of State to reverse that tax on education. Again, it was rejected. I understand government would point to the figures that suggest that there has been no change to the number of pupils in independent schools.
But these figures do not consider the lengths to which a parent will go to ensure their child's education is not disrupted. The data will be more telling in a years time. We offered the Secretary of State a discretionary power to reverse this policy but they refused it. Despite the combined effect of this tax with the appalling imposition of VAT, and the devastating rise in employers National Insurance contributions, I hope that parental choice remains, I hope that children do not have education years disrupted by this
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I am concerned about the impact on this effect to children's education. I am concerned with the government feels able to tax government feels able to tax charities were disagrees with their purposes. It is a dangerous precedent and the decision to precedent and the decision to continue down this route, despite the number of concerns raised, is at the number of concerns raised, is at least disappointing. However, this is a house of scrutiny. Given financial deadlines associated with this bill, I will not be pressing any further amendments.
But I any further amendments. But I sincerely hope in 12 months that our High Street will not have been hollowed out any further. But I am extremely concerned that this bill And importantly that children will be forced to leave independent
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schools, disrupting their education, putting more pressure on the state system, my lords. My lords, last week there was a
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My lords, last week there was a
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My lords, last week there was a considerable majority in support for an amendment tabled in my name which enabled the government by regulation enabled the government by regulation to prevent the higher multiplier from being applied to NHS from being applied to NHS properties. This mainly consists of 290 of the major hospitals in 290 of the major hospitals in England. I was surprised to hear the noble Lord the Minister say just now that there was sufficient leverage within the bill to enable those changes to be made.
I ask him now to explain how that will work. It is most disappointing that the government felt unable to accept the amendment. It is clear however that the government has very challenging decisions to make. Nevertheless, given the reducing waiting times as a key priority, we on these benches were hoping and indeed hopeful of government support on this issue. We recognise at this stage we can take the bill no further. We will not press any further amendments.
I want to finally give thanks to all those who have taken part in this interesting bill, which attracts those of (BLEEP) who like to understand how business rates work and who benefits and who does not. I I look I look forward I look forward to I look forward to the I look forward to the digitalisation of the whole process where changes could then be made. From these benches, our thanks to all of those who have taken part. To the Whips' Office, who have given me enormous support and I thank the Minister and his team for all the helpful conversations we had, though they didn't get anywhere.
But nevertheless, I thank the Minister for always being willing to meet.
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My lords, it has been an
And the government's decision to place a tax on education. We have urged the government to rethink this time and time again. But they remain unmoved by our arguments. More importantly, by the views of people and businesses across the country. I hope that anchor stores will not leave the high street, I hope this won't result in the destruction of our town centres. But the government are making it more difficult for these businesses with this blunt tool. It will hit larger stores with higher business taxes.
The government has rejected even our amendments would have allowed the Secretary of State to exempt certain businesses if it proved to be damaging. But they are so confident in this increase to business rates that they do not need that power to reverse these decisions stop only time will tell whether that confidence was misguided. A similar amendment was tabled to allow the Secretary of State to reverse that tax on education. Again, it was rejected. I understand government would point to the figures that suggest that there has been no change to the number of pupils in independent schools.
But these figures do not consider the lengths to which a parent will go to ensure their child's education is not disrupted. The data will be more telling in a years time. We offered the Secretary of State a discretionary power to reverse this policy but they refused it. Despite the combined effect of this tax with the appalling imposition of VAT, and the devastating rise in employers National Insurance contributions, I hope that parental choice remains, I hope that children do not have education years disrupted by this
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I am concerned about the impact on this effect to children's education. I am concerned with the government feels able to tax government feels able to tax charities were disagrees with their purposes. It is a dangerous precedent and the decision to precedent and the decision to continue down this route, despite the number of concerns raised, is at the number of concerns raised, is at least disappointing. However, this is a house of scrutiny. Given financial deadlines associated with this bill, I will not be pressing any further amendments.
But I any further amendments. But I sincerely hope in 12 months that our High Street will not have been hollowed out any further. But I am extremely concerned that this bill And importantly that children will be forced to leave independent
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schools, disrupting their education, putting more pressure on the state system, my lords. My lords, last week there was a
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My lords, last week there was a
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My lords, last week there was a considerable majority in support for an amendment tabled in my name which enabled the government by regulation enabled the government by regulation to prevent the higher multiplier from being applied to NHS from being applied to NHS properties. This mainly consists of 290 of the major hospitals in 290 of the major hospitals in England. I was surprised to hear the noble Lord the Minister say just now that there was sufficient leverage within the bill to enable those changes to be made.
I ask him now to explain how that will work. It is most disappointing that the government felt unable to accept the amendment. It is clear however that the government has very challenging decisions to make. Nevertheless, given the reducing waiting times as a key priority, we on these benches were hoping and indeed hopeful of government support on this issue. We recognise at this stage we can take the bill no further. We will not press any further amendments.
I want to finally give thanks to all those who have taken part in this interesting bill, which attracts those of (BLEEP) who like to understand how business rates work and who benefits and who does not. I I look I look forward I look forward to I look forward to the I look forward to the digitalisation of the whole process where changes could then be made. From these benches, our thanks to all of those who have taken part. To the Whips' Office, who have given me enormous support and I thank the Minister and his team for all the helpful conversations we had, though they didn't get anywhere.
But nevertheless, I thank the Minister for always being willing to meet.
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My lords, it has been an
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15:36
Lord Thurlow (Crossbench)
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Lord Thurlow (Crossbench)
from across the House and right through to this final stage. I add through to this final stage. I add to those thanks the Minister and his to those thanks the Minister and his team, who have spent a good deal of time on a number of occasions, willing to engage with me and to try to find compromise and a way through the complex and difficult aspects of elements of the bill which have elements of the bill which have become quite technical and needed a become quite technical and needed a deep dive.
I do feel a sense of regret. The government has missed a real opportunity to deal once and for all with the injustices heaped upon the small High Street retailers, which continue to subsidise the rates paid by these mammoth non-high street retail fulfilment centres. The Internet operators exclusively. Not the ones on the High Street who have fulfilment centres. The ones who are not on the High Street. It really is tragic that this opportunity has been missed in my opinion.
It is a wrong the bill could have corrected. The Minister's proposals to address aspects of this. But possibly not for many years to come. The digitisation process of nondomestic rates which we have discussed is in hand. It is planned for 2028. But I wonder if like many other government initiatives it takes many years longer than expected. What a waste. It was not too difficult. An opportunity missed. It is not my desire to prolong the debate.
Notwithstanding the reasons cited for refusal in the other place which did leave the door open. I think we have done enough. HMG should not be frustrated in manifesto items. I thank the Minister for the opportunity to continue dialogue going forward which I would like to engage in, if I have not been put in front of a firing squad as a hereditary before the time comes. I withdraw my amendment.
I do feel a sense of regret. The government has missed a real opportunity to deal once and for all with the injustices heaped upon the small High Street retailers, which continue to subsidise the rates paid by these mammoth non-high street retail fulfilment centres. The Internet operators exclusively. Not the ones on the High Street who have fulfilment centres. The ones who are not on the High Street. It really is tragic that this opportunity has been missed in my opinion.
It is a wrong the bill could have corrected. The Minister's proposals to address aspects of this. But possibly not for many years to come. The digitisation process of nondomestic rates which we have discussed is in hand. It is planned for 2028. But I wonder if like many other government initiatives it takes many years longer than expected. What a waste. It was not too difficult. An opportunity missed. It is not my desire to prolong the debate.
Notwithstanding the reasons cited for refusal in the other place which did leave the door open. I think we have done enough. HMG should not be frustrated in manifesto items. I thank the Minister for the opportunity to continue dialogue going forward which I would like to engage in, if I have not been put in front of a firing squad as a hereditary before the time comes. I withdraw my amendment.
15:38
Lord Lexden (Conservative)
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Lord Lexden (Conservative)
Throughout the government's position, it has in essence being that we have to take away some of the resources of 7% of our country's schools to enable 93% to make schools to enable 93% to make Schools will gain little or nothing from labour's tax rates. It will simply harm independent schools. Throughout debate I have tried to provide a voice for small independent schools, as president of the Association. Whose 720 members are for the most part cherished, As I have said several times, 40% of independent schools have less than 100 pupils.
Their future is now in 100 pupils. Their future is now in jeopardy thanks to this government. Ministers will be held into account, here in Parliament and the country at large for the damage these policies will do to those schools, which richly contribute to immunities in spheres such as special needs, music, the arts, sport, as I and a number of noble friends have demonstrated in these debates. These discriminatory tax burdens threaten their very My Lord, I thank all noble Lord who took part in this debate as well as those who dedicated their time and efforts to scrutinising this bill.
I am thankful to Lady Barran, lady Pinnock and Lady Scott and Lord Fox, Lord Jamieson, Lord Thurlow, Lord Moynihan, Lord Lexden, Lord Storey, Moynihan, Lord Lexden, Lord Storey, Lord Shipley and the Earl of Litton. The time and consideration noble Lord has given is appreciated. I acknowledge it is not always possible to see ITI. I hope the understanding and appreciation I have of their efforts and expertise To noble lords for their agreement not to insist on these amendments.
Through this bill we are beginning to deliver on our mission to transform the business rate system. We have taken a vital step on that path in doing so, ensuring a sustainable permanent tax cut for hospitality and leisure properties . The government is delivering on its commitment to Break Down Barriers to Opportunity. Removing the business rates charitable release for public schools will provide vital revenue to support commitment to education and young
Their future is now in 100 pupils. Their future is now in jeopardy thanks to this government. Ministers will be held into account, here in Parliament and the country at large for the damage these policies will do to those schools, which richly contribute to immunities in spheres such as special needs, music, the arts, sport, as I and a number of noble friends have demonstrated in these debates. These discriminatory tax burdens threaten their very My Lord, I thank all noble Lord who took part in this debate as well as those who dedicated their time and efforts to scrutinising this bill.
I am thankful to Lady Barran, lady Pinnock and Lady Scott and Lord Fox, Lord Jamieson, Lord Thurlow, Lord Moynihan, Lord Lexden, Lord Storey, Moynihan, Lord Lexden, Lord Storey, Lord Shipley and the Earl of Litton. The time and consideration noble Lord has given is appreciated. I acknowledge it is not always possible to see ITI. I hope the understanding and appreciation I have of their efforts and expertise To noble lords for their agreement not to insist on these amendments.
Through this bill we are beginning to deliver on our mission to transform the business rate system. We have taken a vital step on that path in doing so, ensuring a sustainable permanent tax cut for hospitality and leisure properties . The government is delivering on its commitment to Break Down Barriers to Opportunity. Removing the business rates charitable release for public schools will provide vital revenue to support commitment to education and young
15:41
15:41
15:41
Lord Khan of Burnley, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Lord Khan of Burnley, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
they came from all their financial background. The noble Baroness Pinnock invited me to write a letter on a question. I will reject that invitation because I have the answer invitation because I have the answer for her now. Specifically in for her now. Specifically in relation to the powers to exclude classes of property from the higher Multiply if in the future we wanted to. We do have the powers in clause 3. Specifically referred to allowing for the higher Multiply. I thank the noble Lord Thurlow for his remarks.
I know that he is concerned with regard to the timetable of the digitalisation of business rates project. The solution lies in delinking a business and property data and that answer lies within the I look I look forward I look forward to I look forward to engagement I look forward to engagement with the noble Lord, myself and officials in particular. Once again I thank him and all of the noble Lord for not insisting on their amendments.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The question is that motion is agreed to. As many as are of that opinion, say "Content". Of the contrary, "Not content". The
**** Possible New Speaker ****
contrary, "Not content". The contents have it. Move formally? I have already spoken to motions B, C, D and F and with the leave of
**** Possible New Speaker ****
B, C, D and F and with the leave of On block. The question is they be agreed to on the block. As many as are of that opinion, say "Content". Of the contrary, "Not content". The contrary, "Not content". The contents have it. Do you want to take a moment to shuffle the benches
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My My Lord, My Lord, I My Lord, I will My Lord, I will allow My Lord, I will allow the My Lord, I will allow the noble Lord to sit down. The Hereditary
I know that he is concerned with regard to the timetable of the digitalisation of business rates project. The solution lies in delinking a business and property data and that answer lies within the I look I look forward I look forward to I look forward to engagement I look forward to engagement with the noble Lord, myself and officials in particular. Once again I thank him and all of the noble Lord for not insisting on their amendments.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The question is that motion is agreed to. As many as are of that opinion, say "Content". Of the contrary, "Not content". The
**** Possible New Speaker ****
contrary, "Not content". The contents have it. Move formally? I have already spoken to motions B, C, D and F and with the leave of
**** Possible New Speaker ****
B, C, D and F and with the leave of On block. The question is they be agreed to on the block. As many as are of that opinion, say "Content". Of the contrary, "Not content". The contrary, "Not content". The contents have it. Do you want to take a moment to shuffle the benches
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My My Lord, My Lord, I My Lord, I will My Lord, I will allow My Lord, I will allow the My Lord, I will allow the noble Lord to sit down. The Hereditary
15:43
Legislation: House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill – committee stage (day 5)
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Legislation: House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill – committee stage (day 5)
Lord to sit down. The Hereditary
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My Lord, I beg to move the House to again resolve itself into a committee upon the bill. The question is the House now resolve itself into a committee on resolve itself into a committee on the bill. As many as are of that opinion, say "Content". Of the contrary, "Not content". The contents have it.
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contents have it. Articles 1, amendment 90 B, previously debated, so I am guessing previously debated, so I am guessing not moved? Not move. Amendment 90 C. Lord Brady. Previously debated. Lord Brady. Previously debated. Again not moved. And previously debated, presumably again not moved.
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Baroness. My lords, I rise to speak to my
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My lords, I rise to speak to my amendment, 90 E. I thank noble Baroness, Lady Foster, Lady Butler- Baroness, Lady Foster, Lady Butler- Sloss and Lady Jones for their Sloss and Lady Jones for their support. My amendment proposes the nomination of life peerages equivalent to the number of Hereditary Peers, split proportionately between parties and
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My Lord, I beg to move the House to again resolve itself into a committee upon the bill. The question is the House now resolve itself into a committee on resolve itself into a committee on the bill. As many as are of that opinion, say "Content". Of the contrary, "Not content". The contents have it.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
contents have it. Articles 1, amendment 90 B, previously debated, so I am guessing previously debated, so I am guessing not moved? Not move. Amendment 90 C. Lord Brady. Previously debated. Lord Brady. Previously debated. Again not moved. And previously debated, presumably again not moved.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Baroness. My lords, I rise to speak to my
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My lords, I rise to speak to my amendment, 90 E. I thank noble Baroness, Lady Foster, Lady Butler- Baroness, Lady Foster, Lady Butler- Sloss and Lady Jones for their Sloss and Lady Jones for their support. My amendment proposes the nomination of life peerages equivalent to the number of Hereditary Peers, split proportionately between parties and
15:44
Baroness Mobarik (Conservative)
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Baroness Mobarik (Conservative)
proportionately between parties and groups affected. I shall speak to the detail of it shortly. But I came to this conclusion after a number of conversations and considerable thought on how to resolve this matter in a way that reflects the disposition of our house. That is of respect, courtesy and consideration to colleagues. Something one should expect in any place of work. My lords, when I spoke at second reading, I expressed the view that current and Hereditary Peers should have a working life.
If this is to remove their ability to sit in this House as Hereditary Peers. It was a wish to protect valued and respected colleagues from eviction from this colleagues from eviction from this house. Prompted as I said then by a feeling that there may be an element of discrimination or prejudice at play. Sensitive to such things from play. Sensitive to such things from a young age and from experience, I hope that I will always stand up to prejudice, no matter from where it comes or to whom it is directed.
It Having listened carefully to the debates on this bill in recent weeks, I'm still trying to understand why this bill is being brought forward by the government and there are so many other more pressing issues for them to address. Nevertheless, if I could indulge your Lordships attention for a little longer, I would like to share some background to this amendment. I came to this house just over a decade ago. I was introduced by my noble friend Lord Strathclyde, a preeminent Hereditary Peers and format Leader of the House.
I knew my noble friend from serving on the Strathclyde Commission which he so ably chaired, and was hugely honoured that he agreed to be one of my supporters. During my first few weeks here, my noble friend, Lord Younger, another Hereditary Peers, became my mental. I don't think there could have been anyone kinder and more conscientious. He did everything he could to ensure that I understood the workings of your Lordships House. Several months on, Lord Taylor asked if I would consider being a party whip.
I said yes. My group had something in common. They were all Scottish, and a fair number of them were Hereditary Peers. If anyone is concerned about representation of the regions, Scotland is very well represented by hereditary. To mention a few of those in my old flock, the Earl of Lindsay, who currently serves on a Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. And as president of the chartered trading standards Institute. Has also been president of the National trust of Scotland and Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland.
The Earl of Caithness, chief of Sinclair, who currently serves on our Procedure currently serves on our Procedure Committee and the Obesity committee. Has also been a Minister of State in no less than five government departments. Transport, the Home Office, environment, His Majesty's Treasury, and the foreign office. In the Earl of Dundee. The Royal standardbearer of Scotland. A farmer who runs two charitable trusts that he founded, and he has served for many years the Council of Europe and the organisation the Security and cooperation in Europe.
He has also been a government whip and government spokesman for education, Scottish affairs, Home Affairs, and energy. All of them made me feel so welcome, and showed me the utmost respect and kindness. I could not have asked for better colleagues looking out for me when I joined this house. What I'm trying to say is that the people affected by this bill are our friends. Not only are they our friends, but they are distinguished parliamentarians who contribute so much to this house to which we all belong.
A more recent colleague and friend of mine in this house is my noble friend, someone who served as the Minister of State for business and defence, both unpaid positions I might add. And we have regular catch ups. On our very first meeting, the noble Earl and I discovered some common threads. A very close friend of my late father, an eminent gentleman, who was a former ambassador of Pakistan to the United Kingdom, whose family had had a strong connection with the noble Earls grandfather.
Historic photographs and information were shared. But that is where the cosy back story ends. My noble friend's grandfather was the viceroy of pre- partition India. I as you would expect, have rather a dim view of empire. But I do not choose to see my noble friend through the lens of history. When we entered this place, those strange concepts of class and privilege are left outside. We are here as equals, as peers, the clue is in the name.
But to be clear, I do not argue for that hereditary principle. It belongs in the century before last. But the point is, if we don't believe that someone should become a member of this house because of who their parents were, then surely it is not right to remove people from this house because of who their parents were? With that in mind, I come to my amendment. I hope the noble Baroness, the Leader of the House, the leader of our whole house, knows that I hold her and her frontbench team in the highest esteem.
She has told us that this bill is not a cunning attempt at gerrymandering. And we should believe her. My amendment follows on from that understanding. If this bill is not about gerrymandering, then on the day that this bill passes into law, which will, as it was a manifesto commitment, at that point, the Prime Minister should recommend that life peerages impact the number, that life peerages should be given to those where Hereditary Peers had been lost.
To replace the Hereditary Peers they have lost with Life Peers. No backroom deals, a term that has been used more than once during these debates. Let us just be transparent. Here are the numbers lost, and they should be replaced. If we feel that some, even most, of the Hereditary Peers are worthy of being appointed as Life Peers, then there really should be no objection. And where there are hereditaries who do not attend the house or who intends to retire, then this will be
If this is to remove their ability to sit in this House as Hereditary Peers. It was a wish to protect valued and respected colleagues from eviction from this colleagues from eviction from this house. Prompted as I said then by a feeling that there may be an element of discrimination or prejudice at play. Sensitive to such things from play. Sensitive to such things from a young age and from experience, I hope that I will always stand up to prejudice, no matter from where it comes or to whom it is directed.
It Having listened carefully to the debates on this bill in recent weeks, I'm still trying to understand why this bill is being brought forward by the government and there are so many other more pressing issues for them to address. Nevertheless, if I could indulge your Lordships attention for a little longer, I would like to share some background to this amendment. I came to this house just over a decade ago. I was introduced by my noble friend Lord Strathclyde, a preeminent Hereditary Peers and format Leader of the House.
I knew my noble friend from serving on the Strathclyde Commission which he so ably chaired, and was hugely honoured that he agreed to be one of my supporters. During my first few weeks here, my noble friend, Lord Younger, another Hereditary Peers, became my mental. I don't think there could have been anyone kinder and more conscientious. He did everything he could to ensure that I understood the workings of your Lordships House. Several months on, Lord Taylor asked if I would consider being a party whip.
I said yes. My group had something in common. They were all Scottish, and a fair number of them were Hereditary Peers. If anyone is concerned about representation of the regions, Scotland is very well represented by hereditary. To mention a few of those in my old flock, the Earl of Lindsay, who currently serves on a Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. And as president of the chartered trading standards Institute. Has also been president of the National trust of Scotland and Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland.
The Earl of Caithness, chief of Sinclair, who currently serves on our Procedure currently serves on our Procedure Committee and the Obesity committee. Has also been a Minister of State in no less than five government departments. Transport, the Home Office, environment, His Majesty's Treasury, and the foreign office. In the Earl of Dundee. The Royal standardbearer of Scotland. A farmer who runs two charitable trusts that he founded, and he has served for many years the Council of Europe and the organisation the Security and cooperation in Europe.
He has also been a government whip and government spokesman for education, Scottish affairs, Home Affairs, and energy. All of them made me feel so welcome, and showed me the utmost respect and kindness. I could not have asked for better colleagues looking out for me when I joined this house. What I'm trying to say is that the people affected by this bill are our friends. Not only are they our friends, but they are distinguished parliamentarians who contribute so much to this house to which we all belong.
A more recent colleague and friend of mine in this house is my noble friend, someone who served as the Minister of State for business and defence, both unpaid positions I might add. And we have regular catch ups. On our very first meeting, the noble Earl and I discovered some common threads. A very close friend of my late father, an eminent gentleman, who was a former ambassador of Pakistan to the United Kingdom, whose family had had a strong connection with the noble Earls grandfather.
Historic photographs and information were shared. But that is where the cosy back story ends. My noble friend's grandfather was the viceroy of pre- partition India. I as you would expect, have rather a dim view of empire. But I do not choose to see my noble friend through the lens of history. When we entered this place, those strange concepts of class and privilege are left outside. We are here as equals, as peers, the clue is in the name.
But to be clear, I do not argue for that hereditary principle. It belongs in the century before last. But the point is, if we don't believe that someone should become a member of this house because of who their parents were, then surely it is not right to remove people from this house because of who their parents were? With that in mind, I come to my amendment. I hope the noble Baroness, the Leader of the House, the leader of our whole house, knows that I hold her and her frontbench team in the highest esteem.
She has told us that this bill is not a cunning attempt at gerrymandering. And we should believe her. My amendment follows on from that understanding. If this bill is not about gerrymandering, then on the day that this bill passes into law, which will, as it was a manifesto commitment, at that point, the Prime Minister should recommend that life peerages impact the number, that life peerages should be given to those where Hereditary Peers had been lost.
To replace the Hereditary Peers they have lost with Life Peers. No backroom deals, a term that has been used more than once during these debates. Let us just be transparent. Here are the numbers lost, and they should be replaced. If we feel that some, even most, of the Hereditary Peers are worthy of being appointed as Life Peers, then there really should be no objection. And where there are hereditaries who do not attend the house or who intends to retire, then this will be