National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Read Full debate
2nd reading
Wednesday 17th December 2025

(3 months, 1 week ago)

Commons Chamber
National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill 2024-26 Read Hansard Text Watch Debate

This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill 2024-26 passage through Parliament.

In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.

This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here

This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record

Torsten Bell Portrait The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Torsten Bell)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

This is a short and simple Bill. It is a stocking filler to yesterday’s Finance Bill. [Interruption.] There are just three clauses for the chuntering Opposition Members to enjoy. They focus on amending the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992, and they do so to create a power to apply national insurance contributions to salary sacrifice pension contributions above £2,000 a year from April 2029.

I will focus my remarks on three areas: first, why Government action in this regard was inevitable; secondly, the case for the pragmatic, balanced approach that we propose to take; and thirdly, how this sits with wider, crucial questions about pension savings on which the House rightly focuses.

Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My intervention will be very brief. The Federation of Small Businesses in Northern Ireland has told me of its concerns about national insurance contributions, but it has also told me that utility prices are up by 52.7%, labour costs by 51.5%, and taxes by 47.2%. I ask the Minister respectfully how he and the Government can expect small businesses to survive increases at that level.

Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will come to the exact point that the hon. Gentleman raises. The main answer to his question is that we are introducing this change with a very long implementation period—it will not come in until 2029—in order to give businesses and others time to adjust. Businesses have welcomed that across the board, but I will come on to it shortly.

It is always important to keep the effectiveness and value for money of tax reliefs under review; after all, their cost is estimated to be over £500 billion a year. That is always true, but it is especially true when we see the cost explode. That is why we acted in the Budget to reform employee ownership trust capital gains tax relief, because the cost was set to reach more than 20 times what was intended at its introduction.

That is what we see happening in the case of pension salary sacrifice: its cost is on course to almost treble between 2017 and the end of this decade. That would take it to £8 billion a year. For some context, that is the equivalent of the cost of the Royal Air Force. I will repeat that: the cost of pension salary sacrifice was due to rise to the equivalent of our spending, in real terms, on the Royal Air Force. The growth has been fastest among higher earners, with additional rate payers tripling their pension salary sacrifice contributions since 2017. While those on higher salaries are most likely to take part, many others are unable to do so at all.

James Naish Portrait James Naish (Rushcliffe) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I understand the justification for making changes to the salary sacrifice arrangements. The Minister mentions higher earners. Can he explain a bit more about the breakdown of those who are benefiting under the current system as a percentage of the whole? I do not know whether he has that data with him.

Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will come on to some statistics that might answer my hon. Friend’s question.

While those on the highest salaries are most likely to take part in salary sacrifice, others are completely excluded. This goes to the question from the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon).

Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will make some progress before giving way again.

The majority of employers do not offer salary sacrifice at all, including many small businesses. Workers on the national living wage are excluded entirely, and so are the 4.4 million self-employed people across the UK. On grounds of cost and fairness, it is near impossible to defend the status quo.

Of course, a major part of the job of the Opposition is to oppose some things that the Government are doing. I do not want to prejudge the remarks that the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier), will offer shortly, but I am confident that we will hear some opposition—maybe a word or two—to the Bill.

Andrew Murrison Portrait Dr Murrison
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the Minister for arguing for more money for the Royal Air Force, and I very much hope that his colleagues in the Ministry of Defence and the Treasury are listening. We were told a little over a year ago that we had wiped the slate clean and that the Government would not be coming back to demand more money to fill various non-existent black holes. What has changed over the past several months that means he is now coming back to levy this very large sum of money?

Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I think I have already answered the right hon. Member’s question: it is important to keep tax reliefs under review. The cost of pension salary sacrifice is growing very fast indeed, so we have reviewed this tax relief and think it is important to bring in pragmatic changes, as I will come on to.

As I was saying, I am confidently looking forward—

Lincoln Jopp Portrait Lincoln Jopp (Spelthorne) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the Minister give way?

Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am going to make a bit of progress, and then I will give way to the hon. Member.

The truth is that reform was inevitable. Although Conservative Members are not saying it now, they know this is true, because it is what they said in government. In the 2015 summer Budget, they said:

“Salary sacrifice arrangements…are becoming increasingly popular and the cost to the taxpayer is rising”—

[Interruption.] I will come on to what the last Government wanted to do in the pensions space in a second. I am glad that the hon. Member for North Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller) is so keen to hear this; he is setting me up nicely for what is coming in a second.

The summer Budget of 2015 went on to say:

“The government will actively monitor the growth of these schemes and their effect on tax receipts”,

which is the same argument that I just made to the right hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison). That monitoring led, a year later, to the then Chancellor—now Baron Hammond of Runnymede—announcing benefit-in-kind restrictions. He told this House:

“The majority of employees pay tax on a cash salary, but some are able to sacrifice salary…and pay much lower tax… That is unfair”.—[Official Report, 23 November 2016; Vol. 617, c. 907.]

He was right then, and the same argument holds today.

Former Conservative Ministers should certainly agree, because in government they were planning exactly the kind of change to pensions that we are now introducing. By way of proof, in 2023 the Conservatives commissioned research on restricting salary sacrifice arrangements for pensions, which is exactly the same measure they are opposing today. What was the proposed cap on pension salary sacrifice in that report? It was £2,000 a year, which is exactly the same cap they are opposing today.

Lincoln Jopp Portrait Lincoln Jopp
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister seems to have co-opted the amount of money spent on the Royal Air Force into his argument. Is he aware that absent the defence investment plan—it was promised in the autumn, and the House rises tomorrow—we have no idea about the size, shape and cost of the Royal Air Force, because the Government are late with their homework?

Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Gentleman, as I always do, because he always makes interesting points, but my larger point is this: if the Conservative party refuses ever to support any increases in taxation, increases in such spending—I think there is cross-party support for the Ministry of Defence, as the right hon. Member for South West Wiltshire mentioned—cannot be funded and cannot happen.

Almost every tax expert in the country has noted the need for change, and most have called for pension salary sacrifice to be ended entirely. However, we are taking a more pragmatic approach by recognising that change will affect many employers and employees. Our balanced approach has two key parts. The first is time. As I said to the hon. Member for Strangford, nothing will change overnight. We are providing over three years’ notice of the reform’s implementation. What did the previous Government provide to employers? One year’s notice of their reforms to salary sacrifice. This will give everybody involved time to prepare and adjust, which is widely welcomed by firms and business groups. Employers and payroll providers have already been working with His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to ensure that this change operates in the most effective way, and that process will continue as we approach implementation.

The second key design choice is the cap of £2,000. This cap protects ordinary workers and limits the impact on employers, while ensuring that the system remains fiscally sustainable. The cap means that the majority of those currently using salary sacrifice will be unaffected. It means that almost all—95%—of those earning £30,000 or less, who work disproportionately for small businesses, will be entirely unaffected, and 87% of affected salary sacrifice contributions above the cap are forecast to be made by higher and additional rate taxpayers. This is a pragmatic and fair approach, as well as the fiscally responsible one.

Some will claim—I am sure we will hear this from the Opposition—that salary sacrifice arrangements drive aggregate levels of pension savings. That is simply wrong. After all, salary sacrifice arrangements existed through the 2000s and into the early 2010s, and what happened to pension savings during that period? There were not rises, but big falls in private sector participation in pension savings. The existence of salary sacrifice did nothing to prevent a situation in which, by 2012, only one in three private sector workers were saving into a pension.

What made the difference was not the complicated national insurance reliefs available to some employees, but automatic enrolment, the groundwork for which was laid under the last Labour Government and which was continued by Conservative and Liberal Democrat Ministers. That reversed the collapse in workplace pension saving, and it means that over 22 million workers are now saving each month.

We also see that contributions have risen in line with regulatory requirements, not with the growth of salary sacrifice. Pension salary sacrifice relief doubled between 2019 and 2023. Was that associated with a surge in average pension contribution levels? No, they have remained entirely stable as a proportion of pay, because all the evidence indicates that it is largely automatic enrolment that drives changes in pension savings. That should not surprise anybody, because the research commissioned by the Conservative party that I mentioned earlier pointed in the same direction. It found that the majority of employers reducing their tax bill by offering pension salary sacrifice did not use the savings to increase pension contributions.

More importantly for any member of the public listening—and it is important for all of us to be clear about this throughout this debate—pension saving will remain highly tax-advantaged after these changes. I have seen some deeply misleading comments in the media and otherwise on wider changes to pension tax relief, saying that people will not be saving as much as they previously were. The public should be clear that we are spending over £70 billion per year on pension tax relief, and that will be entirely unaffected by these changes. Employer contributions will continue to be the most tax-advantaged part of the pension tax system, being made entirely national insurance contribution-free.

These are necessary changes that everyone who has thought about this subject knew would be needed, and they are changes being implemented in a pragmatic and balanced way. They are also consistent with the longer-term approach to reforming the pension system that is now in train.

There is cross-party agreement that the work of the Pensions Commission is important as it examines questions of adequacy and fairness. We all know too many people are under-saving. Many commentators have called for higher minimum saving rates within automatic enrolment, including some on the Opposition Front Bench. The commission is crunching the numbers and talking to employers, trade unions and the pensions industry. We should not prejudge its work so I would now simply note that higher savings rates means pension tax relief costs rising further. If we combine that with the reality that if pension salary sacrifice remains unreformed, the end point could be all employee contributions being funnelled through this route, it implies costs at least doubling again to well over £15 billion a year, which means £15 billion in higher taxes elsewhere or cuts to public services. That is the logical conclusion of the arguments from those opposing today’s Bill.

Then we come to the real problem of some groups disproportionately under-saving, which, again, Members on both sides of this House have rightly raised in debates on pensions in recent months. The Pensions Commission is focused on groups we know are most exposed, including low earners, some ethnic minorities, women and the self-employed. This is a real challenge for our pension system but the data is entirely clear that today’s salary sacrifice is not the answer. That is true whichever group we look at. Let us take them in turn. The self-employed are a top concern, with only one in five saving into a pension, but they are entirely excluded from pension salary sacrifice. Low earners are most likely not to be saving, but it is higher earners who are most likely to be using salary sacrifice. And many more women are under-saving for retirement, but many more men use pension salary sacrifice.

These are fair and balanced reforms. They protect ordinary workers, they give employers many years to prepare, and they ensure both our pension system and the public finances are kept on a sustainable footing. Opposing them is not cost-free: the savings from this measure are equivalent to over 250,000 knee and hip operations every year. The truth is that they are inevitable, which is why at least one party opposite was planning to introduce them. I gently suggest to some Members that they can, of course, take the easy route of opposing this change, but the truth is that they will be doing so with their fingers crossed behind their backs, because many know this change needed to come one day, and I suspect not one of the parties opposite will promise to undo it in the years ahead—but we will see.

The Budget delivered badly needed tax reforms ducked for too long by previous Chancellors. Whether it is the pragmatic reform in front of us today or ensuring that everyone driving on the roads contributes to their upkeep, these reforms are what it takes to keep cutting waiting lists, cutting borrowing and cutting energy bills, and I commend them and this Bill to the House.

--- Later in debate ---
Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Your report!

Mark Garnier Portrait Mark Garnier
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Indeed—our report, though it was published in May this year. It is a weighty tome. Even its title is pretty dry: “Understanding the attitudes and behaviours of employers towards salary sacrifice for pensions”. The Minister proudly told us that this document underscored the rationale for—[Interruption.] Oh—because it is important stuff. He told us that it underscored the rationale for capping salary sacrifice. However, having read the report, I can tell the House that it actually concludes that:

“All the hypothetical scenarios explored in this research”,

including the £2,000 cap, “were viewed negatively” by those interviewed. The changes would cause confusion, reduce benefits to employees and disincentivise pension savings. The report the Minister is using tells him not to do this.

The report also goes into why salary sacrifice for pensions is used by employers in addition to the incentive of paying into a pension, stating that extra benefits include: savings for employees, so that they have more to spend on essentials, tackling the cost of living crisis; savings for employers, which they can then invest back into their business and staff; and incentives for recruitment and retention. These are all good things—this is the stuff of delivering growth and the basis of creating a savings and investment culture. Why would this Government want to take it away?

The report came to the conclusion that of the three proposed options for change, the £2,000 cap is no more than the least terrible option. [Interruption.] The Minister talks about it being a secret plan—it is a published document. What is he talking about? It is the most extraordinary thing. He refers to it in terms that none of us recognises. But he has brought this in—this is the point. Is the Minister chuffed that his choice comes down to the least worst option for everyone? Here is the truth: it was the Chancellor’s choice to introduce this policy, and this Government are the ones implementing it—they are the ones who are in government.

Let us get to the measures and the impact of the Bill. To be fair, it is a very even Bill; there is something in it for everybody to hate. Take middle-income earners, who are typically in their 30s, and who earn on average a touch under £42,000 a year. This is the target area where the attack on savings starts. This is right at the point in life where people should be doing their very best for their future retirement. It is a perfect target market for the Government’s savings ambitions. However, it does not stop there. In total, at least 3.3 million savers will be affected, which is 44% of all people who use salary sacrifice for their pension. These are all people who work hard—people on whom the Chancellor promised not to raise taxes.

In fact, middle-income employees will be affected more than higher earners. According to the Financial Times, under the Bill, an employee who earns £50,000 and sacrifices 5% of that will pay the same amount in national insurance contributions as an employee on £80,000. If the contribution rate is doubled to 10% of their salary, the disparity grows even further, meaning that an employee earning £50,000 will pay the same amount in national insurance contributions as an employee on £140,000. How is that fair? The Government keep telling us that this policy will affect top earners, but the reality is that those on middle incomes will be disproportionately hit—the very people we should be encouraging to save more.

The Bill will also potentially hit low earners. Somebody who is lucky enough to get a Christmas bonus will not be able to add it to their salary sacrifice, taking advantage of any headroom, because the accounting looks at regular payments, not one-offs. [Interruption.] I am slightly worried, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the pairing Whip has a rather bad cough; I hope he gets better. This will potentially hit the 75% of basic rate taxpayers the cap supposedly protects.

Finally, the Bill hits employers. In the previous Budget, the Government absolutely hammered business. They increased employer national insurance contributions to 15% and, at the same time, reduced the starting threshold to £5,000. Businesses reacted and adapted. They were reassured by the Chancellor’s promise that she would not come back for more, yet here we are discussing further tax rises on businesses.

Let us look at the actual impact this raid on pensions will have on employers. According to the Government’s own impact assessment, it will hit 290,000 employers. A business highlighted in the 2025 report that

“If salary sacrifice were to go away, it would be additional cost of £600,000 to £700,000 per annum to the company in national insurance”.

While the Government are not abolishing it altogether, 44% of people currently using salary sacrifice—[Interruption.] I am worried; the pairing Whip is coughing. Anyway, there is going to be a cost, and that money will be taken away from businesses. This is going to be—[Interruption.] The Minister is chuntering from a sedentary position; he is obviously proud of what he is doing to the pensions industry.

Furthermore, the change will create administrative burdens for employers. With the current system, there are few administrative issues; the only thing that businesses have to bear in mind is ensuring that their employees’ pay does not fall below the national living wage—that is it. So what do the Government do? They go for the most complicated option that the report considered. That was explicitly stated by those involved in the research. As a pensions administration manager for a large manufacturing employer said,

“We’d have to reconfigure all our payroll systems and all our documentation. It would be a big job.”

The National Audit Office estimates that the annual cost on business just to comply with this Government’s tax system is £15.4 billion, yet the Government feel that the time is right to put more costs on businesses. I have to ask, what happened to the Chancellor’s pledge to cut red tape by a quarter?

I think I will move on to my conclusion in order to save people. [Laughter.] There was some great stuff in this speech, but I understand that people want to get away and wrap their Christmas stockings—particularly the Pensions Minister who, like the Grinch, is taking a lot of money away. To conclude, the Government should think again on this policy. People are simply not saving enough for their retirement. We need to do more to encourage them to save for their retirement. I know that the Minister would agree with that, so I hope that he hears the genuine concerns I have raised on behalf of a lot of people. Many people and businesses and are very worried about this policy, and he needs to take it away and think carefully about it.

Fundamentally, we are taking away something that is beneficial to the individual while also being tax efficient for business. Instead of encouraging the creation of incentives such as salary sacrifice or pensions, we are reducing the number. It is the wrong policy, and it sends the wrong message at the wrong time. All it does is add to the ongoing narrative that, “If you work hard to make a decent income, you will lose out. If you work hard as an employer to grow your business, you will lose out. If you try to save towards dignity and retirement, you will lose out.” It is the wrong policy to pursue and we will definitely vote against it tonight.

--- Later in debate ---
Neil Shastri-Hurst Portrait Dr Neil Shastri-Hurst (Solihull West and Shirley) (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

It strikes me that it should not be particularly controversial that a Government should be encouraging people to save for their retirement, to take responsibility for their future and to feel secure in later life. Therefore, although we are dealing with a short Bill that appears to be purely procedural in nature, its practical consequences are profound, because it takes us in precisely the wrong direction.

Beneath the layer of technical language lies a troubling choice. It is a choice to tax aspiration, penalise prudence and chip away at the very habits that ensure financial security in our later years. The Government have sought to assure us that this only affects high earners and that most will not be affected, but that is not how it will feel to the majority of people in the real world. One in five people—approximately 20%—rely on salary sacrifice. Those are people who are doing the right thing; they are choosing long-term security over short-term consumption. Yet under the Bill, to save means to pay more. That is not positive pension reform; it is a stealth national insurance rise, dressed up in the cloak of technicality.

At a time when businesses are struggling under huge wage bills, regulatory uncertainty and sluggish growth, the Bill quietly imposes on them yet another burden. I remind Government Members that fairness cuts both ways. It is not fair to tell people to save for their future and then tax them more for doing so, it is not fair to talk of fiscal responsibility when penalising prudence, and it is not fair to build long-term public finances on short-term revenue grabs.

There is a moral component to this, because women will be disproportionately affected. Many women, on returning from maternity leave, increase their contributions to cover for that career break. The proposals as drafted will result in those who plan responsibly being encumbered with higher additional national insurance charges.

Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am reluctant to intervene, but I just want to pick up on two points that the hon. Member has just made. Men are much more likely to use salary sacrifice than women, so I offer him the chance to reconsider his last point about women being disproportionately affected. Before that, he said that the Bill meant that people were being encouraged to save but that they would be penalised if they did so. Given that there are members of the public listening who will make choices about their savings, I invite him to remind everyone that saving into their pension is still a very tax-advantaged thing to do. All Members on both sides of the House should encourage people to save into their pension, as the tax system will continue to do.

Neil Shastri-Hurst Portrait Dr Shastri-Hurst
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister is right that people should be putting into their pensions and we should encourage them to do so, but we should not put forward legislation that disincentivises that. In respect of women, it is a fact that they are more likely to take career breaks and, by virtue of that, they may want to make up their contributions. This legislation will disadvantage those individuals.

The salary sacrifice scheme has become the bedrock of the modern pension system in the workplace. By decreasing gross pay, it decreases employer national insurance contributions and allows firms to invest more in their people. That is a positive step. My fear is that, as a consequence of this piece of legislation, many employers may scale back those contributions, cut other benefits associated with work or even discontinue schemes entirely. If we want a country that values responsibility and rewards work, and in which people make long-term plans for their economic security, I am afraid that the Bill takes us in entirely the wrong direction.

--- Later in debate ---
Dan Tomlinson Portrait The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Dan Tomlinson)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for bringing the Front Benchers on both sides to heel at just the right time, before I make the closing remarks. It is a pleasure to close this Second Reading debate, and I thank all Members on both sides of the House for their contributions. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Jim Dickson) for his contribution and his brief foray—and it was brief—into broader points around the Budget, which I did appreciate. I will try to minimise doing so in my remarks.

The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for North Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller), raised a few points. While he is whispering over there, I will confirm to him that the costing provided by the OBR accounts for the dynamic effects of this policy. The costing itself has been certified by the OBR. The reason why the change does not come in for a number of years is because it will give businesses time to plan, which we think is an important thing to do when we are making significant changes to the pension system.

This is an important Bill, if small. This is an important debate to have, although it has felt somewhat rushed given that it has come after the many final-week statements and urgent questions today. But that has given me a bit more time to prepare some remarks, which I have hastily cut down from the 30 minutes I was planning; we will see whether we can make faster progress than that for the sake of all concerned.

In my extra time this afternoon, I thought I would attempt to shoehorn a Christmas theme into my closing remarks, given that this will be the last time the House divides before Christmas. Very briefly, I present “The Twelve Numbers of Christmas: the Salary Sacrifice Edition”. I start with 12 words from Baron Hammond of Runnymede on how some employees are, in his words,

“able to sacrifice salary…and pay much lower tax….That is unfair”.—[Official Report, 23 November 2016; Vol. 617, c. 907.]

The Whips can count, and I can see that they have counted that as 12 words—very good. It is clear that even 10 years ago the Conservative party was aware of issues with salary sacrifice schemes. They knew that we must ensure that significant tax reliefs totalling £75 billion a year are properly targeted. That is why we are capping pension salary sacrifice contributions at £2,000.

Let us be clear: we are not removing pension tax relief, just the ability for unlimited relief via salary sacrifice, which many people cannot access in any case. That brings me to my No. 11. Those earning £11, £12 or £13 an hour at the national minimum wage or the national living wage cannot make use of salary sacrifice schemes because if they sacrificed their salary, they would be paid less than the minimum. It is the richest who benefit the most from these schemes.

Dan Tomlinson Portrait Dan Tomlinson
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I happily give way to my hon. Friend.

Chris Vince Portrait Chris Vince
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It’s Christmas! I have been here the whole time, by the way, Madam Deputy Speaker.

The Minister talks about the impact on different earners. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury mentioned that only one in five self-employed people actually gets a pension, and there was another statistic about low earners. Can the Minister reflect on that? We need to get more people signing up for a pension.

Dan Tomlinson Portrait Dan Tomlinson
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Some 4.4 million of the self-employed are also not able to save into salary sacrifice schemes; it is right that we make the scheme fairer for all.

Let me continue to run through my numbers. Some 10 million people have signed up to a pension since auto-enrolment, which has limited the need for salary sacrifice. There are more than 900 tax reliefs; this is one of a number that we are reducing to raise revenue fairly at this Budget. Without intervention, salary sacrifice would have cost £8 billion a year by the end of the decade. Instead, we will now raise £7 billion from this change over the course of the scorecard.

The change will affect those on higher earnings more: 60% of the contributions come from the top fifth of employees and just 5% of those earning less than £30,000 will be affected. We will give businesses time to plan—this is not coming in for a bit less than four calendar years.

Richard Fuller Portrait Richard Fuller
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the Minister give way?

--- Later in debate ---
Dan Tomlinson Portrait Dan Tomlinson
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We should make progress.

I step back for my final three numbers. Let me briefly set out how some of the long-term decisions the Government are taking are paying off. Figures today show that inflation has fallen to nearly 3%, with wages up more under this Government than in the first decade under the Conservatives. In the past two Budgets, the Government have made the right decisions for the good of the British people. We have focused on improving public services because we know that we were elected to put them right. We have focused on getting living standards up because we were elected to end decline. We have focused on making the right decisions for the long term because we were elected to put to bed the short-term chaos of years gone by.

To conclude, my final number is not a partridge in a pear tree but this fantastic country—my No. 1. We are all here to represent and improve this one great country of ours. It is a land full of hope and wonder, particularly at this time of year, with families and friends looking forward to seeing each other over the coming weeks, neighbours who look out for one another, communities who come together at Christmas—which we all want to get to in good time—and people who work hard and who want the state and the economy to work for them in return.

Although we disagree on much, I know that right hon. and hon. Members from across the House care deeply about this country of ours, and it deserves our best. Although the Bill is short and has only a few clauses, it is part of a bigger story about a Government who love this country and its people and want the best for it, a Government who are making the right decisions for the national interest, and a Government who are working every day to help everyday Brits get a fairer deal, in every way that we can. With that, I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

--- Later in debate ---
18:45

Division 395

Question accordingly agreed to.

Ayes: 312

Noes: 165

Bill read a Second time.

National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Read Full debate

This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill 2024-26 passage through Parliament.

In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.

This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here

This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record

Mark Garnier Portrait Mark Garnier
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I completely agree. That is a fundamental problem. We are doing completely the wrong thing for people who want to do the right thing. We are disincentivising people taking responsibility for their future at a time when the state pension is coming under a lot of pressure. It is expected in 11 or 12 years, I think, that less money will be paid into the pension schemes pot than is withdrawn by those of us who are approaching retirement—I declare an interest, in my own case.

Mark Garnier Portrait Mark Garnier
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Minister very much.

--- Later in debate ---
The Bill removes a helpful incentive for long-term financial planning and will place a costly additional burden on small businesses at a time when they can least afford it. I think it is an unwise, short-term move with no regard for the longer-term consequences that will cost the Treasury more than the Bill brings in, so I urge the Government to reconsider. For this reason, I will be pushing to a vote this afternoon the Liberal Democrats’ new clause 5, which would require the Government to calculate and publish the changes to lifetime pension values before and after the changes made in this Bill have taken effect, and we will be voting against the Bill.
Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) for the reminder of the excellent debate we had before the Christmas break. I thank him and the hon. Member for Witney (Charlie Maynard) for their contributions. I will briefly reiterate the case for the three short and perfectly formed clauses of this Bill before focusing my remarks on the hon. Members’ amendments.

As hon. Members know, this reform was inevitable. We have had a detailed discussion of the last Government’s secret plan to implement a very similar proposal—the “secret plan” label came from the Conservative party, not Government Front Benchers—and the cost of pensions salary sacrifice was due to almost treble, from £2.8 billion in 2017 to £8 billion by 2030. That is the equivalent of the cost of the Royal Air Force. The status quo is also hard to defend when low earners and the 4.4 million self-employed people across the UK are entirely excluded, reinforcing the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Chris Vince).

Steve Darling Portrait Steve Darling (Torbay) (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister will recall our many happy hours together in Committee on the Pension Schemes Bill. One of the issues that the Liberal Democrats raised was the need for an MOT for people as they approach pension age, to see how their pension is going and test its adequacy. Does the Minister accept that putting these stark restrictions in place will significantly restrict the ability of somebody who realises that they are running out of time to make additional contributions to their pension to get to a better place? Would he consider extra flexibility, so that people could perhaps use 10-year allowances in three years?

Caroline Nokes Portrait The Second Deputy Chairman
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Order. I remind Members that the scope of this Bill is very narrow indeed, and we really ought not to be bringing in new concepts.

Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Thank you, Ms Nokes. I will follow your advice, but will try to respond to some of the hon. Member’s points when I address the question of how we have gone about making the changes that this Bill introduces.

As I have said, change is inevitable, but it is important to take a pragmatic approach, which is my answer to the hon. Member for Torbay (Steve Darling). The Bill is pragmatic in that it continues to allow £2,000 to be salary sacrificed free of any NICs charge, ensuring that 95% of those earning £30,000 or less will be entirely unaffected. It is pragmatic in that it gives employers and the industry four years to prepare.

Chris Vince Portrait Chris Vince
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister has said that the cost to the Exchequer of the salary sacrifice scheme is going to triple by the end of this decade. Does he agree that that is unsustainable for the Treasury, and also that we in this Chamber have to get real? The reason why people in my constituency of Harlow cannot even begin to think about pensions or savings is that they are living day to day. What this Government need to do is tackle the cost of living crisis, and that is what they are doing.

Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

In a shock move, I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. Members of those parties who have said that they intend to vote against this Bill today cannot keep coming to this Chamber, day after day, calling for additional spending in more areas, while opposing any means of raising taxes. [Interruption.] Well, you have raised the welfare budget, and without trying—

--- Later in debate ---
Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

No, I will not mention the welfare budget.

Caroline Nokes Portrait The Second Deputy Chairman
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Order. First, I have not raised anything. Secondly, we are not here to debate the welfare budget. This is a very narrow Bill with limited scope. The Minister can listen to the same strictures I have given to other Members.

Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am listening to every word of your strictures, Ms Nokes. This Bill is also pragmatic by providing time to adjust and by ensuring that saving into a pension remains hugely tax-advantaged. I say gently to Members who do not agree with the detail of this Bill that they should be careful not to give the impression to savers or those not saving that there is not already a strong financial incentive to continue pension saving in exactly the way people have been doing. Clause 1 provides for that pragmatic approach in Great Britain. Clause 2 does the same for Northern Ireland, and clause 3 provides for the territorial extent and start date of these measures.

I will turn more substantively to the amendments tabled by the shadow Minister and the hon. Member for Witney. At one level, I was glad to see amendments 5 and 6 tabled by the shadow Minister, which aim to exempt basic rate taxpayers. It shows the Opposition, as part of the secret plan that I mentioned earlier, accepting the inevitability of change and instead grappling with what the right pragmatic version of that looks like. In many ways, the amendments aim to deliver the same objective as the £2,000 cap, which, as I said, will mean that 95% of those earning less than £30,000 are unaffected, as are the vast majority of basic rate taxpayers.

Ashley Fox Portrait Sir Ashley Fox (Bridgwater) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Can the Minister explain what is pragmatic about withdrawing a 2p in the pound tax relief from a higher rate taxpayer without a student loan, while withdrawing a 17p in the pound tax relief from a basic rate taxpayer who happens to have a student loan?

Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The pragmatic approach is to allow people to continue with salary sacrifice up to £2,000 and to not bring in the measure for four years, so that people have time to adjust. Opposition Members will need to justify wanting to spend more than is being spent on the Royal Air Force on that—I sat through Prime Minister’s questions today, and I heard people calling for more defence spending—while not being able to live up to what that requires, which is taking seriously that we spend tax reliefs effectively. For everybody, there will still be a strong tax incentive to save into their pension.

Taking the approach that the Opposition propose, rather than our proposed cap, would likely be impossible to implement in practice and add unnecessary complexity. That is not least because employers would in many cases not know which employees would end up being basic rate taxpayers. They certainly would not know for sure until the end of the financial year, or at least late on into it.

Amendments 7 and 8 would uprate the cap by inflation. The Government have set out our policy intent for a £2,000 cap to be introduced in April 2029, with the timing driven by the desire to give everyone time to adjust. In that context, it does not make sense to index that cap ahead of 2029. Our view is that the future level of the cap in the next decade and beyond is for Budgets in those decades—or at least significantly closer to them. I know that Members are keen to start debating the 2031 Budget, but having heard from Ms Nokes, I think we should leave that for another day.

Our approach is consistent with the one that this House has taken under Governments of all three main parties, which is to have key elements of the pension tax system that are not routinely indexed, including the annual allowance. It is of course right that this and all Governments will want to keep the cap under review to ensure that it continues to meet the objectives we have set out today.

Several of the new clauses probe at the impact of the changes. The Government have published a tax information and impact note alongside the Bill. It sets out the impact of the policy on the Exchequer, the economy and individuals and businesses. It also provides an overview of the equality impacts.

New clauses 1 and 2 focus on SMEs. I have heard suggestions—this has been gently hinted at today—that SMEs are more likely to be affected. The opposite is true. Only 39% of employers offer pension salary sacrifices, and small businesses are less likely to do so than larger businesses. Indeed, the status quo puts SMEs at a disadvantage relative to their larger competitors, which is the opposite of the point that the hon. Member for Witney wanted to make.

New clause 3 focuses on marginal tax rates, but the changes in the Bill do not directly affect a person’s marginal tax. Those wanting to make pension contributions to keep their taxable income below a certain level can continue to do so, and I have read much misleading commentary on that point.

New clause 4 proposes an impact assessment of the changes before they take effect and five years after. I again commend the hon. Member for Wyre Forest, who is showing admirable zeal for supporting the argument that I made on Second Reading that any responsible Government should keep the £500 billion of tax reliefs under review to ensure that they are delivering efficiently on their objectives. That is the exact thought pattern that identified this relief as needing reform. I look forward to the shadow Minister changing his mind and supporting our measures. The Government should and will continue to keep this and all taxes and tax reliefs under review, rather than singling this particular relief out via primary legislation.

I turn briefly to new clauses 5 and 6, which focus on the impact on pension savings. I can reassure the Committee that the Office for Budget Responsibility has set out that it does not expect any material impact on savings as a result of the Budget 2025 tax changes. I hope that these remarks reassure Members on the points that their amendments have raised. I commend the Bill to the Committee.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

--- Later in debate ---
15:24

Division 414

Question accordingly negatived.

Ayes: 191

Noes: 326

Clauses 1 to 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
--- Later in debate ---
15:39

Division 415

Question accordingly negatived.

Ayes: 195

Noes: 317

The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair.
--- Later in debate ---
Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

The Bill amends the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992, creating a power to apply employer and employee national insurance contributions on salary sacrifice pension contributions above £2,000 a year from April 2029. Reform of this type, as I have said, was inevitable. The cost to the Exchequer of salary sacrifice pension schemes was due to almost treble by 2030 without reform. The Government are taking a pragmatic and balanced approach to that reform: first, by introducing a cap so that ordinary workers are, in the vast majority of cases, unaffected; secondly, by giving employers, employees and providers a long lead-in time, so that everybody has plenty of time to prepare; and thirdly, by ensuring that saving into a pension, including via salary sacrifice, remains hugely tax-advantageous. The Government continue to provide over £70 billion of income tax and national insurance relief on pension contributions each year. Employer pension contributions will remain the most tax-advantaged part of the system.

In this debate and others on pensions, we have heard strong cross-party consensus that greater pension adequacy is important. We all look at the forecasts for private pension income and see that they show lower private pension income on average for those retiring in 2050 relative to those retiring today. That is not an acceptable place to be. Answering that question is the job of the Pensions Commission, which we have put in place with cross-party support. It is rightly examining the question of retirement income adequacy and fairness. I gently note that those groups that we all agree are under-saving for retirement, such as low earners and the self-employed, are precluded from using salary sacrifice or are much less likely to use it than other groups.

Part of what we are doing through the Bill is delivering badly needed reforms to the tax system alongside other measures from the Budget. These measures are what it takes to keep waiting lists falling, cut borrowing and cut energy bills in the years ahead. Those who do not wish to support changes like these cannot have it both ways and call for additional spending, additional support on energy bills and the rest.

More generally, it is important that we all consider the effectiveness of tax reliefs in the system, which cost a cumulative £500 billion a year. If we defend the status quo, even in the face of tax reliefs, which are hard to justify and whose costs are rising significantly, that means that higher taxes for everybody else. We are not prepared to see that happen.

Indeed, I am sure that in their hearts the Opposition parties also believe that these reforms are necessary. As a test of that, I invite the shadow Minister to stand up and commit to reversing the changes if—though it is very unlikely—the Conservatives ever happen to form a Government again. I am 100% sure that he will not do that, because he knows that these changes need to be made. On the basis of what should be cross-party support, I commend the Bill to the House.

Caroline Nokes Portrait Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I call the shadow Minister.

--- Later in debate ---
16:01

Division 416

Question accordingly agreed to.

Ayes: 316

Noes: 194

Bill read the Third time and passed.

Medical Training (Prioritisation) Bill

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Read Full debate
2nd reading
Wednesday 4th February 2026

(1 month, 3 weeks ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Amendment Paper: Committee of the whole House Amendments as at 21 January 2026 - (21 Jan 2026)

This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill 2024-26 passage through Parliament.

In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.

This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here

This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record

Moved by
Baroness Merron Portrait Baroness Merron
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

That the Bill be now read a second time.

Northern Ireland, Scottish and Welsh legislative consent sought.

Baroness Merron Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, it is essential that the changes we hope to make in this Bill resolve some of the existing workforce issues within our NHS. I say at the outset that the Bill will not be a silver bullet, and I do not wish to present it as such, but the changes it introduces for foundation and specialty training will lead to a more sustainable medical workforce that can better meet the health needs of our population.

I am most grateful to all those who have engaged with us, including the devolved Governments, to recognise the shared challenges that we face across the United Kingdom. My thanks are also due to noble Lords from across the House for their constructive contributions, time and interest in meeting me and officials. I am also most grateful for the cross-party support that has been demonstrated, both in the other place and in my discussions with the Front Benches in this House. A number of organisations have also expressed their support, including: the BMA, the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges, the Royal College of Physicians, and the Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh.

The NHS is beginning to show signs of recovery, following a period of unprecedented strain. Nothing in the NHS functions without its workforce and I am grateful for the dedication and professionalism of our workforce. Supporting, valuing and planning for that workforce is fundamental and, I know, something that your Lordships’ House takes a great interest in—and rightly so. Because the NHS depends on its workforce, we are developing a long-term approach to workforce planning, aligned with the ambitions set out in the 10-year health plan published in July, which set out the intent of this Bill.

That work will culminate in the publication of a 10-year workforce plan in the spring, setting out how we intend to ensure that the NHS has the right people in the right places with the right skills. Staff have been clear for some time that they want change, not only in absolute numbers but in how they are trained, supported and treated at work. We have heard from many who have been exceptionally frustrated by the current application process. There are challenges within medical training that cannot be addressed without legislative change, and that is why we are taking action with this Bill. I am absolutely delighted that my noble friends Lord Duvall and Lord Roe have chosen to make their maiden speeches in this important debate. I, like all noble Lords, very much look forward to hearing from them.

One of the most pressing of those challenges is the severe bottleneck in postgraduate medical training. For several years now, the number of applicants for foundation and specialty training places has grown far more rapidly than the number of available posts. In 2019, there were around 12,000 applicants for 9,000 specialty training places. In 2020, visa restrictions were lifted, and we find this year that this has soared to nearly 40,000 applicants for 10,000 places, with significantly more overseas-trained applicants than UK-trained ones.

This has created intense competition, uncertainty and frustration for many at the start of their careers. At the same time our NHS has become increasingly reliant on international recruitment. This Government deeply value the contribution made by doctors from all around the world, many of whom have played and continue to play a vital role in patient care, and nothing in in this Bill diminishes that contribution. However, it is neither sustainable nor ethically comfortable for the UK to depend so heavily on recruiting doctors from countries that themselves face serious workforce challenges while a growing number of UK-trained doctors struggle to access training posts. Competition for medical staff has never been fiercer. The World Health Organization estimates a shortfall of 11 million health workers by 2030. Shoring up our own workforce will limit our exposure to such global pressures without depriving other countries of their homegrown talent, and this Bill seeks to address that imbalance.

Let me turn to the Bill itself. The Medical Training (Prioritisation) Bill gives effect to the Government’s commitment to place UK-trained doctors and other defined priority groups at the front of the queue for medical training posts. It does so while continuing to allow internationally trained doctors to apply for and contribute to the NHS. Let me emphasise that the Bill is about prioritisation. It is not about excluding people, but it is unashamedly about prioritisation. For the UK foundation programme, the Bill requires that places are allocated to UK medical graduates and those in priority groups before being offered to other eligible applicants. For specialty training, it introduces prioritisation initially at the offer stage for 2026 and from 2027 at both the short-listing and offer stages. That will significantly reduce the level of competition being faced by UK-trained applicants, and it will provide greater certainty at a critical point in their career.

Internationally trained doctors with significant NHS experience will continue to be prioritised for specialty training, recognising the service that they have given. This year, immigration status will be used as a practical proxy for NHS experience in order to allow prioritisation to begin swiftly. For following years, we have taken powers in regulations to enable us to refine this approach in consultation with key partners. I have been asked by noble Lords what this means for those with refugee status. This status is not a stand-alone priority group, although refugees will be prioritised for specialty training in 2026 if they fall within another priority category, such as holding indefinite leave to remain or having completed the foundation programme. Refugees who do not fall within a prioritised group may still apply for specialty training posts and the Bill will not change their eligibility to apply for locally employed doctors’ roles.

I am seeking to address up front some of the concerns that will quite rightly be raised in the course of the debate. One of those is a concern I have heard about why British citizens who have graduated from medical schools outside the UK will not be in the priority group, including some doctors who would be eligible only for provisional GMC registration. I understand the reasons why this is being raised, and I have heard how some would prefer all British citizens, in a blanket sense, to be prioritised. The problem with that is that it would undermine the very intent of the legislation, which is to enable effective workforce planning and the development of our future medical workforce.

The principle is to create a sustainable domestic workforce. It is not about where a student is born; it is about where they are trained, and the fact is that UK-trained doctors are more likely to work in the NHS for longer. In addition, the Government set UK medical school places based on future health system needs. Student intakes and graduate outputs of overseas medical schools are not included in our domestic workforce planning. If we prioritised British citizens in a blanket sense for foundation training places regardless of where they studied, that would undermine our key aim to build UK-trained capacity while ensuring that we do not provide more foundation programme places than we need. I reiterate that this Bill is about prioritisation and not exclusion. All eligible applicants will still be able to apply and will be offered places if vacancies remain after prioritised applicants have received offers, which we expect to be the case on the basis of our long experience.

I have also listened to colleagues expressing concerns around the treatment of applicants graduating in Malta. The UK’s long-standing partnership with Malta on healthcare is valued and will continue. Doctors training in Malta will still be able to come to the UK to gain NHS experience to support their training, for example through fellowship schemes. These arrangements are not affected by the Bill. However, as I stated earlier, for recruitment to specialty training places in the UK, the Government assess that it is important to prioritise to ensure a sustainable workforce that meets health needs.

I turn to the matter of public health specialists, who are particularly identified in the Bill. Public health is a unique medical specialty that draws applicants from medicine and other professional backgrounds who all undergo the same rigorous training. All public health specialists, regardless of professional background, complete the same rigorous medical specialty training programme and are subject to the same high professional standards. The Bill excludes from prioritisation any specialty programmes wholly in the field of public health, as it would undermine the multidisciplinary public health specialist workforce. The Government will monitor the impact on the public health specialist training programme, which currently accepts very small numbers of international medical graduates.

I am aware that there are concerns relating to terms and conditions and mobility for some specialists. We have set out the actions we will take to make the NHS a better and great employer. However, a focus on the NHS alone will not support the whole health workforce, as many public health specialists work outside the NHS with differing employment arrangements. But we are committed to working with the BMA, employers and professional bodies to make public health careers more attractive.

On timing, the Bill includes provisions to allow prioritisation to apply to the current application cycle, with posts commencing this August. That requires Royal Assent by 5 March. It is therefore important to seek timely passage for this Bill to avoid disruption for trainees who need sufficient time to find somewhere to live, sort out childcare and arrange any other aspects of their lives before their posts start, and for NHS trusts that are planning the front-line services. I hear the concerns of some noble Lords about the impact on those applying in the current application cycle, particularly where applicants report that they did not know how prioritisation might affect them. As I said earlier, these concerns are understandable, and they have been carefully considered. However, delaying action would only prolong the current problem by further entrenching the existing imbalance in training competition and it would weaken our ability to plan a sustainable workforce.

The commencement provisions provide necessary flexibility, ensuring that implementation can be carried out in an orderly and workable way, taking account of operational realities. On that point, there is a material consideration, which I am sure will be raised and understandably so, about whether it is possible to proceed if strike action is ongoing. The disruption strikes cause, and the pressure they put on resources, would undoubtedly make it a lot harder operationally to deliver the important measures in this Bill. It is our intention to commence as soon as we can, subject to the Bill’s passage through Parliament, but it is vital to have a safeguard to ensure that the systems planning and operational capacity required for successful implementation are firmly in place.

I conclude by saying that the Bill will not solve every workforce challenge, but it is a very important step towards a more coherent, ethical and sustainable approach to medical training and workforce planning: something that has been called for for many years.

It is estimated that four resident doctors will be competing for every specialty training post in 2026. With the delivery of this Bill, this number can reduce to two resident doctors per place. British taxpayers spend £4 billion training medics every single year. It will be by better aligning public investment, training capacity and long-term service needs that the Bill will give UK-trained doctors a fair chance to serve in the health service they train to support, and to do so in a way that benefits us, the public, across the country. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---
Baroness Merron Portrait Baroness Merron (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords who contributed to this debate for the support given, including just now by the noble Earl, Lord Effingham, to working with us, because I think there is general recognition that we have a problem that needs to be dealt with. I am very glad, as I said at the outset, to have been the Minister at the Dispatch Box when my noble friends Lord Duvall and Lord Roe made their moving maiden speeches. They both have many years of distinction in public service, and I know that that will continue as they bring their own unique experiences and views on the world to your Lordships’ House, which will be much enriched by their presence.

A strong and consistent theme has come through today’s debate: a shared concern for the well-being of NHS staff, recognition of the importance of workforce planning and the need for a sustainable health service. I am grateful for the thoughtful questions, and I will endeavour to answer as many as possible—I have already referred to some in my opening remarks. I will of course review the debate, as always, and I will be pleased to write to noble Lords on those matters I was not able to get to.

This legislation is about giving future generations of doctors trained in the UK a clearer and more secure pathway into NHS careers. It is about sustainable workforce planning and, as the noble Earl, Lord Howe, referred to, about fairness—to those who train here, to taxpayers who fund that training and to patients. As many noble Lords acknowledged, significant public investment goes into medical education every year, so it is right that we ask ourselves how that investment can be best aligned to what we need.

I have listened closely to the concerns raised today, particularly about the Bill’s impact on those who will not be prioritised. To reiterate, the way I look at this is that the Bill is about prioritisation, not exclusion. I assure your Lordships’ House that all eligible applicants will still be able to apply, and they will be offered places if vacancies remain after prioritised applicants have received theirs. We absolutely expect that to be the case; that is our experience. To be more specific, there are likely to be opportunities in specialties such as general practice, core psychiatry and internal medicine, which historically attract fewer applicants than the groups we are prioritising for 2026. We still need those people.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, asked about possible unintended consequences for the UK’s international reputation. I believe our proud history of welcoming colleagues from across the world will continue and, as I have just said, international colleagues can, of course, continue to apply after prioritisation has taken place and there are vacancies.

On new specialty training posts, we have committed to creating 1,000 of these new posts over the next three years, focusing on specialties where there is greatest need. This is on top of creating 250 additional GP training places each year. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, raised questions about the availability of training places. Expansion will be matched with training capacity. We have not yet confirmed which specialties will receive the new posts, but we will ensure that expansion is targeted where patient demand and workforce pressures are the most acute.

I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, made reference to the cancer plan. It was a bright spot in today’s news—I am sure all noble Lords will understand —and has not had the airtime it ought to have had, so I am most grateful to him. What I can tell the noble Lord about the creation of new specialty training posts is that there will be a focus on those with greatest need. We will set out steps in due course and I look forward to keeping the noble Lord informed. Non-prioritised graduates will also continue to have routes into NHS careers through locally employed doctor roles, gaining experience that can support future progression and prioritisation.

Let me turn to some of the specific points that were raised by noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, asked about British citizens who have graduated from medical schools outside the UK and will not be in the priority group. I understand why these concerns are being raised but, going back to the core of the Bill, to prioritise them would undermine our aim to build UK-trained capacity while ensuring we do not provide any more foundation programme places than we need. To reiterate, UK-trained doctors are more likely to work in the NHS for longer, and retention is an issue that is much discussed in your Lordships’ House. They will be better equipped to deliver tailored healthcare that suits the UK’s population because of what they understand. Reference was made to the provision extending also to the Republic of Ireland graduates. Their inclusion ensures consistency in workforce planning across both jurisdictions, which reflects the long-standing protocol rights for movement and employment. That was something in which the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, was particularly interested.

On specialty training places starting in 2026, British citizens will be prioritised, because that is one of the prioritised immigration statuses being used as a proxy to indicate someone who is likely to have significant experience of the NHS. Why? Because applications for posts starting in 2026 have already been made. Prioritisation is only at offer stage because shortlisting is under way, so it is a timing matter about implementation. From 2027, immigration status will no longer automatically determine priority, but we have the ability to set out in regulations the persons who will be prioritised based on criteria which indicate they are likely to have significant NHS experience, or based on their immigration status. As I said earlier, we will be engaging with our partners to work out how best to define that.

On the point made by a number of noble Lords, including the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Stevens, about graduates of overseas campuses, including Malta, which I will turn to presently, having heard the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada, the UK foundation programme applications for 2026 show that there are almost 300 applicants from these overseas campuses, of whom 152 are UK nationals. This is a substantial number and, if we were to do what is being asked—to prioritise graduates of UK overseas campuses—our estimation is that this could encourage universities to establish further international partnerships which would simply increase pressure still further. It also risks creating a loophole that would encourage new overseas partnerships to seek preferential access to the foundation programme across the UK. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, picked out Liechtenstein in particular, but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, referred to, we are talking about the EFTA countries, which include Liechtenstein, and they are prioritised simply because of existing international agreements that we are obliged to honour. However, in practice, not all these countries are going to have eligible applicants.

Lord Clement-Jones Portrait Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I hope the Minister does not mind. Does the Minister think that the agreement with Malta should be honoured as well?

Baroness Merron Portrait Baroness Merron (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am coming on to this, but the agreement in respect of Malta that I would refer to is a reciprocal health agreement. It does not apply in this area. It is about the reciprocal provision of healthcare. I will turn to Malta, however, after saying a brief word about overseas campuses generally.

Just to re-emphasise, overseas campus students are not part of the numbers that the Government are setting. We do not have that control. If we prioritised those graduates as well, that would eat away at the very core of the Bill and the things people actually want us to do.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, wanted an indication of how this would all align with the international education strategy. The Bill does not conflict with this, because the international education strategy supports universities expanding internationally. It does not prevent UK universities delivering medical degrees overseas. That strategy stays in place.

I turn to Malta for the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada—

Baroness Hollins Portrait Baroness Hollins (CB)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Can I just a question? The Minister has suggested that these students could come and work in non-training posts. But the problem, as I understand it—do correct me if I am wrong—is that, for example, St George’s students must complete their foundation year in the UK to be eligible to apply for full registration. Therefore, it means that they cannot complete their medical education without being eligible to apply for the foundation training. While a different contract could potentially be negotiated for future students at an overseas campus, the current students who have this contract and expectation in place need to have that honoured. I do not feel that the Minister has responded to the concerns that have been raised eloquently around the House.

Baroness Merron Portrait Baroness Merron (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As I said at the outset, I will endeavour to answer all questions, but where I do not have an answer, particularly where I want to look at them in closer detail, I will be very pleased to write, of course, as always.

Still turning to Malta—which is a pleasure—let me say straight away that we do have a long-standing partnership with Malta on healthcare. It is valued and it will continue. Doctors who are training in Malta will still come to the UK, as they do now, to gain NHS experience to support their training, for example through fellowship schemes. This is not affected by the Bill.

As I discussed with the noble Baroness just yesterday, senior officials in my department have met with the High Commissioner of Malta to the United Kingdom in order to assure him of this. But it is important to prioritise in order to ensure a sustainable workforce that meets its health needs. Again, that is at the core of the Bill. Malta has its own foundation school. This is not part of the UK foundation programme: it is affiliated with the UK foundation programme office which administers the UK programme. That means—this point has been made to me—the Malta Foundation School delivers the same curriculum and offers the same education and training as the UK foundation programme. The Bill will not impact this affiliation or the other ways in which work carries on closely with the Government of Malta when it comes to health.

The noble Earl, Lord Howe, also made the point that he believed small numbers of students were impacted. I have referred to the 300 applicants from overseas campuses. I hope it is understood that that is why there is a significance there.

If there are other matters that I have not addressed to the satisfaction of the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada, I will be very pleased to review this, because I suspect there were some more points to address. I will be very pleased to write to her to give her comfort in this regard.

I move on now to the impact on doctors who were part way through the application process—a point spoken to by noble Lords, Lord Patel, Lord Mohammed, Lord Clement-Jones, and other noble Lords. As I stated earlier, delaying implementation of the Bill until next year, which would be required if we were to respond as requested, would mean another full year where we are not tackling the issue of bottlenecks in medical training. It seemed to me that the feeling in the House was that we did need to do that.

I understand the discomfort of noble Lords around this. It is important that I recognise that, but it is also important to recognise when introducing legislation that sometimes it will not work perfectly for everybody. This is about prioritisation, not about exclusion.

Following that point, the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, and the noble Earl, Lord Effingham, asked about emergency legislation. They asked: why now? As the Health Secretary set out in the other place, he has listened to resident doctors and their concerns about a system that does not work for them. He agreed to bring forward that emergency legislation as quickly as possible, rather than wait—this is key for a number of the points raised—another year to do so.

The noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, asked about the Bill’s commencement and why it will not commence at Royal Assent—that is a very fair question. We are introducing reforms for a large-scale recruitment process. I know that noble Lords will understand what a major undertaking this is. We do not want to create errors or more uncertainty. To make sure that it is effective in commencement, we must have clear processes for delivery across the health system, and I am sure that all noble Lords appreciate that these elements cannot be switched on overnight. As the Secretary of State said in the other place, there is a material consideration about whether it is even possible to proceed if the strikes are ongoing. He is concerned—I share this concern, as I am sure all noble Lords do—about the disruption that strikes cause and the pressure they put on resources, which would make it so much harder operationally to deliver the measures in the Bill.

Lord Mohammed of Tinsley Portrait Lord Mohammed of Tinsley (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will press the point I made earlier about uncertainty. Not having a commencement date creates a lot of uncertainty for the current batch of students, who are really worried about whether they will they gain a place and, more importantly, where. I want to impress this issue on the Minister; it was raised by the Russell group medical school admissions head with me personally.

Baroness Merron Portrait Baroness Merron (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I completely understand the point about uncertainty. Uncertainty exists in the current system, and uncertainty may transfer for different reasons. We are keen to get on with this. I am just indicating some of the circumstances—strike action—that would cause difficulty for us in terms of commencement. I hope we can proceed. I think the noble Lord will understand exactly what I am saying.

The noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, asked about the release of more granular detail. I draw noble Lords’ attention to the fact that NHS England already publishes a wide range of recruitment data, including data on country of qualification and nationality groups. It will publish further granular data when possible and monitor the implementation of the Bill, should it pass—that, for me, is the most important point. If the noble Baroness is referring to other information, she is very welcome to raise that with me.

I am of course very happy to meet with my noble friend Lord Stevenson. In general, the 10-year health plan commits to working with professional regulators and educational institutions over the next three years to overhaul education and training curricula.

To answer the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, on prioritisation, if I can put it in my language: you either are or are not prioritised. There are no tiers of priorities within priorities; it is as it is written in the Bill.

The noble Lord, Lord Mohammed, asked about the impact of prioritisation on harder-to-fill specialties. This approach will not negatively impact recruitment. In fact, it will ensure that priority groups are considered first, while keeping the door open for when we need people. I think it will help get people into the areas in which we need them, because it will direct people to where we do not have sufficient applicants.

At its heart, the Bill is about the UK-trained medical graduates on whom the NHS heavily relies. We are grateful for their skill, commitment and professionalism. It is our responsibility to ensure they are trained, supported and treated well at work. This is a more sustainable and considered approach to the allocation of medical training places. A number of noble Lords said that this is a problem that has been around for years. We are grasping the proverbial nettle. The Bill is a measured step towards the goals of clarity, fairness and opportunity. It will not, on its own, resolve everything—I am fully aware of that—but it will help us with a pressing problem. With that, I beg to move.

Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Read Full debate

This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill 2024-26 passage through Parliament.

In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.

This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here

This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record

Moved by
Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

That the Bill be now read a second time.

Lord Livermore Portrait The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Livermore) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, it is a pleasure to open this Second Reading debate on the Bill. It legislates for reforms announced in the Budget in November. That was a Budget to build a stronger, more secure economy that had at its heart three deliberate pro-growth choices. First, by choosing to maintain economic stability, getting inflation and interest rates down, we helped to give businesses the confidence to invest and our economy the room to grow. Secondly, by choosing to reject austerity, we protected £120 billion of additional investment in growth-driving infrastructure. Thirdly, by choosing to back the fast-growing companies of the future, we supported the investment, innovation and economic dynamism that will increase growth in the next decade and beyond.

But these are choices that need to be paid for. That is why the Budget contained a series of reforms to the tax system to ensure that it keeps pace with a fast-changing economy. Those reforms include changes to pension salary sacrifice, contained in the Bill we are debating today. The Government spend over £500 billion each year on various reliefs within the tax system. That is more than double the entire annual NHS budget and nearly five times the annual budget for education. The size of this spend means the Government must always keep the effectiveness and value for money of tax reliefs under review. This Bill addresses just one of these reliefs: pension salary sacrifice, the cost of which was set to treble to £8 billion a year by the end of this decade.

That increase has been driven most by higher earners, with additional-rate taxpayers tripling their salary sacrifice contributions since 2017. This includes individuals sacrificing their bonuses without paying any income tax and national insurance contributions on them. But while those on the highest salaries are most likely to take part in salary sacrifice, others are completely excluded. For example, the majority of employers do not offer salary sacrifice, including many small businesses. Groups who are most likely to be undersaving for retirement, such as those on the national minimum wage and the UK’s 4.4 million self-employed workers, are also completely excluded from using salary sacrifice.

The status quo is neither fair nor fiscally sustainable. We cannot afford to allow the cost of pension salary sacrifice to balloon, benefiting predominantly higher earners. In this, we agree with the approach taken by the previous Government. In their 2015 Summer Budget, the then Government said:

“Salary sacrifice arrangements … are becoming increasingly popular and the cost to the taxpayer is rising”.


Two years later, the previous Government introduced reforms to salary sacrifice. The Finance Act 2017 removed the tax advantages of salary sacrifice for the majority of benefits in kind—for example, living accommodation or private medical insurance. The noble Lord, Lord Hammond of Runnymede, told the other place:

“The majority of employees pay tax on a cash salary, but some are able to sacrifice salary … and pay much lower tax … That is unfair”.—[Official Report, Commons, 23/11/16; col. 907.]


The previous Government commissioned research in 2023, which included a proposal to cap pensions salary sacrifice at £2,000. This Government are now taking forward that reform to ensure that the tax system is kept on a sustainable footing.

Although some tax experts have called for pension salary sacrifice to be abolished entirely, the Government are taking a more measured and pragmatic approach. The Bill contains two main elements. First, it introduces a cap of £2,000 under which no employer and employee national insurance contributions will be charged on any pension contributions. The cap protects ordinary workers using salary sacrifice and limits the impact on employers while ensuring that the system remains fiscally sustainable. The majority of those currently using salary sacrifice will be unaffected. Indeed, 95% of those earning £30,000 or less who currently make pension contributions through salary sacrifice will be entirely unaffected. It is forecast that 87% of salary sacrifice contributions above the cap will be made by higher rate and additional rate taxpayers. Individuals can also continue to save as much as they wish into their pensions, either through salary sacrifice or outside of it, both of which will be fully relievable of income tax.

Secondly, we are introducing this change with a long implementation period so that it will come into effect in 2029-30. This gives employers and employees over three years to prepare and to adjust. I am pleased that business and industry bodies have already welcomed this lengthy implementation period. HMRC is also engaging with industry stakeholders to ensure this change operates in the most effective way. That will continue as we approach implementation.

Saving into a pension, including via salary sacrifice, will remain hugely tax advantageous under these changes. The Government currently provide over £70 billion of income tax and national insurance contributions relief on pension contributions each year. That spend will be entirely unaffected by these changes. Employees’ pension contributions, including those made via salary sacrifice, will continue to be fully relievable from income tax at the employee’s marginal rate. For example, if a basic rate taxpayer were to put £100 into their pension, it would cost them just £80 of their take-home pay, with the Government providing the remaining £20 in tax relief. For a higher rate taxpayer, that same £100 pension contribution can cost them as little as £60 because they also receive relief at their marginal rate of tax.

For employers, all pension contributions they make for their employees outside of salary sacrifice will remain exempt from both income tax and national insurance contributions. This makes pensions one of the most tax-efficient ways to invest in their workforce. For example, if an employer contributes £1,000 to an employee’s pension, this is worth £150 in forgone employer national insurance contributions.

Since the Budget in November, it has been suggested by some that these changes will negatively impact the overall level of pension saving. We do not believe this to be the case. Salary sacrifice existed in the 2000s and early 2010s, yet there were significant falls in private sector pension saving during this period. In 2012, only one in three private sector workers saved into a pension.

The key factor that has led to an increase in saving in recent years is not the complicated national insurance reliefs available to some employees, but rather automatic enrolment, introduced in 2012, which has reversed the collapse in workplace pension saving. As a result of automatic enrolment, over 22 million workers across the UK are now saving each month.

Evidence also shows that pension contributions have risen in line with regulatory requirements, not with the growth of salary sacrifice. The majority of employers reducing their tax bill by offering pension salary sacrifice did not use the savings to increase pension contributions. Overall, the Office for Budget Responsibility has made it clear in its economic and fiscal outlook that it does not expect a material impact on savings behaviour as a result of the tax changes made in the Budget.

These are fair and balanced reforms. They protect lower and middle earners, give employers many years to prepare, preserve the incentives that underpin workplace pension saving, and ensure that the tax system is kept on a sustainable footing. The Bill builds on reforms by the previous Government to the salary sacrifice system and legislates for proposals first put forward in 2023. It also forms part of a wider package of reforms to ensure that the tax system keeps pace with our fast-changing economy. As a result of these and other reforms, the Government were able to take a series of pro-growth choices at the Budget last year to maintain economic stability, to reject austerity, to protect investment and to back the fast-growing companies of the future. These are the right and responsible choices to strengthen our economy for the long term. I beg to move.

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, this Bill is deceptively small. It runs to just four pages of text and could be easily mistaken for something minor. But its consequences for working people and for long-term pension saving in particular are serious and far-reaching. We are talking about pensions, not other benefits, which the previous Government reformed.

There is a risk that the Bill’s impact will be misunderstood or dismissed as marginal, but it is neither. In simple terms, it introduces a £2,000 annual cap on the amount of pension saving that can be made through salary sacrifice without attracting national insurance. Above that cap, pension contributions are treated as earnings for national insurance purposes. Because of the way NICs work, employees earning below £50,270 will pay national insurance at 80% on the excess; those earning above that threshold will pay 2% on the excess. That is the policy, and the question for this House is who it really affects and what behaviour it is likely to change. I thank all noble Lords for staying late and look forward to their contributions.

The Government have repeatedly argued that this measure is targeted at those they describe as high earners. Page 2 of the Explanatory Notes makes it clear that this is the Government’s intention, and the fashionable Minister, Torsten Bell, has said that the Bill “protects ordinary workers”. He implicitly recognises that, for those on low incomes, salary sacrifice is the only way to build up a significant defined contribution pension fund.

But what is immediately obvious to the pension providers, employers and experts that we have spoken to is that this is not, in practice, a measure aimed at the highest earners. It hits people squarely in the middle of the income distribution, and in some cases below it. Those saving responsibly through salary sacrifice are most affected. They include younger professionals in high-cost cities and mid-career workers trying to make up pension shortfalls, typically earning between £30,000 and £60,000 a year. Given that the average UK salary is £37,430, it is difficult to see how people earning within this distribution can be credibly described as high earners. They are ordinary working people doing exactly what successive Governments have spent decades encouraging them to do: saving responsibly for retirement.

I will give the House a concrete example. Imagine a young professional who has just graduated and taken up a job in a city—London, Bristol or Manchester—earning £45,000 a year. They decide to do the responsible thing and save seriously for retirement, contributing £5,000 a year through salary sacrifice. Under the Bill, £3,000 of that saving is treated as earnings for national insurance purposes, and that individual will be paying more national insurance, not because their income has increased but because they are trying to secure a decent pension. This represents an additional hit of £240 a year for a young working person, coming on top of student loan repayments at a ridiculously high interest rate, tax, existing national insurance contributions and the high cost of living.

This raises a question for the Minister: quite how are the Government defining a high earner? A graduate in their 20s, living in London and living on £45,000 a year—£40,000 after sacrificing £5,000 for their pension—is not a high earner: not against average income, and certainly not in the context of where they are living. So where has the Treasury decided to draw that line? Unless the definition is clearly set out, it risks becoming a flexible and politically convenient threshold, capable of being shifted over time to suit the Treasury’s needs. Without a fixed and transparent definition, no group can be confident it will not be caught by provisions targeted at high earners.

The example I gave goes to the heart of one of our core concerns with the Bill, which is that the likely behavioural response it will generate risks undermining pensions adequacy. We already know that adequacy is a serious and unresolved problem. Auto-enrolment, introduced on a cross-party basis, has been a major success in bringing people into pension saving. But even so, the statutory minimum contribution of 8% is widely accepted as insufficient to deliver a decent retirement income for many people. The system relies on employers paying over the statutory minimum for their workers to be sufficiently funded in retirement. That is not a controversial point; it is the settled consensus of the pensions world.

The IFS report, Adequacy of Future Retirement Incomes: New Evidence for Private Sector Employees, clearly makes the point that despite the success of automatic enrolment, a large minority of private sector employees are not on track for an adequate retirement income and saving has become more challenging. It found that only 57% of private sector employees saving in defined contribution pensions are projected to hit the Pensions Commission’s target replacement rates, and around one-third of savers are not projected to achieve even the minimum retirement living standard defined by the Pensions and Lifetime Savings Association

Against that backdrop, discouraging additional pension saving is exactly the wrong policy response, yet that is precisely what the Bill does. Evidence published prior to the Budget suggested that nearly 40% of workers would reduce their pension saving if the benefits of salary sacrifice were capped, and the costs and complexities of the new system will almost certainly mean that employers reduce their salary sacrifice offerings altogether. That outcome is a foreseeable consequence of the policy design set out in the Bill.

The effects of the Bill will be felt not just immediately but deeply over time. Lower saving today means lower retirement income tomorrow and greater reliance on the state in future decades. At a time when we are rightly concerned about the long-term sustainability of the public finances, it is deeply troubling to introduce a measure that reduces pension saving, thus storing up higher costs for future Governments.

It would be a mistake to pretend that the Bill bears only on savers. Employers, especially small businesses, will be hit directly by higher costs, new administrative burdens and unpalatable choices about pay and pension provision. It comes at the worst possible time. Businesses are already struggling under the cumulative weight of this Government’s economic choices—minimum wage increases, punitive business rates, an expanding national insurance burden and an economy mired in prolonged stagnation.

Under the current system, salary sacrifice arrangements are a widely used mechanism through which employers support pension saving. They reduce employer NI liabilities, simplify administration and enable employers to offer more generous pension provision without increasing headline wages. The Bill fundamentally damages that settlement.

From April 2029, employers will be liable for employer national insurance contributions at 15% on any salary-sacrificed pension contributions above £2,000. That represents a direct increase in payroll costs for any organisation with meaningful take-up of salary sacrifice arrangements.

Let us imagine an employee aged 50 with a £40,000 salary, trying to make up a potential pension income shortfall before they retire by sacrificing £5,000 per year. Their £5,000 sacrifice is due to trigger national insurance on £3,000 of that amount, costing the employer an additional £450 and the employee £240 per year.

The Office for Budget Responsibility assumes that around three-quarters of those additional costs will be passed on to employees, either through lower wages or reduced employer pension contributions. But even with these anticipated changes in behaviour, employers will still bear substantial transitional costs, ongoing compliance burdens and reputational risks associated with scaling back on pensions.

Employers will also face new administrative and reporting requirements. To administer the £2,000 cliff edge, they will be required to track and report total salary-sacrificed pension contributions through payroll systems, calculate national insurance liabilities on any excess above the cap and communicate clearly with employees about changes to their take-home pay. While the three-year window will allow many to update their payroll software, the complexity should not be underestimated, particularly for smaller employers without sophisticated payroll infrastructure or for employees with more than one job, which is common in the SME sector.

Faced with these costs and complexities, it is entirely rational for employers to withdraw salary sacrifice. The result is likely to be less flexibility, fewer incentives to save, and weaker pension provision across the workforce, making the private sector even less competitive as compared with the generous defined benefit pension provision in the public sector.

This is not mere speculation by the Opposition. The OBR’s own revenue projections already assume significant behavioural change, and evidence suggests that employers are actively reassessing their pension strategies in anticipation of the Bill, meaning that it is increasingly likely that the OBR has been overgenerous in its estimations. At a time when successive Governments have encouraged employers to play a greater role in supporting retirement adequacy, often paying above the statutory minimum, the Bill risks pushing employers in precisely the opposite direction. Higher costs, greater complexity and weaker incentives are not a recipe for stronger workplace pensions, and there could even be a backlash against the Government as individual employees find it difficult to know whether they have hit the cap.

The Government argue that this is a modest measure necessary to raise revenue of £4.8 billion—and, I note cynically, to do so by the end of the forecast period in 2029-30, which is the horizon against which the Chancellor’s fiscal rules are judged. The revenue assumptions depend heavily on people not changing their behaviour, but the evidence suggests that they will. When incentives change, behaviour changes, by both individuals and employers. When behaviour changes, revenues fall, but the damage to pensions adequacy remains. The Bill risks achieving the worst of all worlds: reducing trust in the pensions system, a cap that disincentivises pension saving by responsible individuals, an increase in future dependency on the state, and a failure to deliver the long-term fiscal benefits the Government want.

Tax is a behavioural lever—a powerful one—and should not be considered independently of other pension priorities. The Government are legislating for these changes in isolation today, at a time when the Pension Schemes Bill and the Pensions Commission are likely to transform the whole pension environment. Is this really wise? I believe this House must scrutinise this Bill, its costings and any regulations made under its powers with the greatest of care.

--- Later in debate ---
Baroness Maclean of Redditch Portrait Baroness Maclean of Redditch (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord de Clifford, who spoke about his personal experience of running a small business, which I also share.

When the Bill was introduced, the Treasury Minister in another place said:

“It is the richest who benefit from these schemes ... it is right that we make the scheme fairer for all”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/12/25; col. 1023.]


It is a weird definition of “fair” when someone earning £45,000—a basic rate taxpayer—is penalised for saving too much for their pension.

I reject the notion that fairness means endless redistribution from those who contribute to those who do not. A truly fair society recognises that those who work hardest, take the most risk and contribute the most deserve to be rewarded, because it is their success, and the wealth they create, that make it possible to help people who genuinely need the help. You do not lift up the poor by bringing down the rich; you do not make anyone richer by arguing about slices of the pie. Your Lordships do not need me to remind the House that it was Mrs Thatcher who said that. This progressive instinct—to take ever more from those who contribute and redistribute it endlessly—is yet another thing that sounds compassionate but is the opposite.

However, it is not just on values that I differ from the Government. I also differ from them in the practical outcomes. It actually would not matter if we had different values if the evidence showed that their policy was going to be successful and help people and society; but, as we have heard from all across the Chamber, these policies are not successful: they are economically illiterate and self-defeating. You just cannot tax your way to prosperity. Societies around the globe have tried it over and over again and it never works.

Your Lordships should consider this: the top 1% of earners in the country pay approximately 29% of all income tax. The top 10% pay roughly 60%. These are not bad, greedy or selfish people. They are working damn hard and are carrying the entire system on their backs. And what is their reward? To be told they are not paying their “fair share”. To face ever-higher taxes. To see their pension arrangements restricted, and to be demonised while people who choose not to work or who have only recently arrived in this country and never paid in, get benefits paid for by these very taxpayers.

The Government have claimed that this measure targets higher earners who benefit disproportionately from salary sacrifice, but that is just not the case, as we have heard in many other remarks. The Chartered Institute of Taxation found that limiting salary sacrifice will affect basic rate taxpayers more, pound for pound, than higher and additional rate taxpayers. Moreover, this change is likely to cause some employers to withdraw pension salary sacrifice as an option.

I started my business with my husband in a small flat above a former garage in Acocks Green, which is a suburb in inner-city Birmingham. We could not compete with large employers—established large companies—for the kinds of graduates we were trying to hire. We barely even had a flushing toilet in the first years we were starting, so we had to offer something to get people to actually come and work for us. We were able to offer salary sacrifice and pensions: that was one thing that we could do. We could not offer any other fancy perks, but at least we could offer that, and we knew that we were doing the right thing for people.

It is not surprising, unfortunately, that the Government take this approach, because—with a couple of honourable exceptions sitting here tonight—barely anybody in the Government has actually ever started a business or knows what it is like or has even worked in the private sector. Unfortunately, the Treasury’s own figures show that approximately 85,000 basic rate taxpayers will be affected by this. These could be people earning about £45,000 after 20 years in the workforce. The Treasury Minister talks about the rich, but these are not millionaires or billionaires: they are not Elon Musk. They are people who have just worked very hard in ordinary jobs for 20 or 30 years. They are the backbone of our country. They are saving for the future and they do not ask anything from the state. Yet their taxes are going up on absolutely everything and they do not get any of the benefits available to people on lower incomes. They cannot use those benefits and they do not use those services.

This is another restriction on these people’s ability to save, while the Government are subsidising many others who make lifestyle choices not to work and have unlimited numbers of children, while claiming benefits and not working. We are seeing that balloon now, with the two-child benefit cap going. We are providing housing and support for record numbers of illegal migrants at taxpayers’ expense. This is the absolute madness of this system now. The Bill is yet another punch in the guts for exactly the kind of country that we want to encourage and the people who keep this country going.

The Department for Work and Pensions estimates that two-fifths of people are not on track to achieve their retirement incomes, so the solution is to encourage more saving. I am out of time, but can the Government please look at amendments to protect basic rate taxpayers, index the threshold to inflation and require comprehensive review before implementation?

--- Later in debate ---
Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, it is a pleasure to close this Second Reading debate. I am grateful to all noble Lords for their expertise, their contributions and questions, particularly at this late hour.

The Bill before your Lordships’ House legislates for reforms announced in the Budget last November. It was a Budget to build a stronger, more secure economy that had at its heart three deliberate pro-growth choices: to maintain economic stability, to protect £120 billion of additional investment in growth-driving infrastructure, and to back the fast-growing companies of the future, but, as I have said previously, these choices need to be paid for. That is why the Budget contained a series of reforms to the tax system to ensure it keeps pace with a fast-changing economy. Those reforms include the changes that we are debating today.

As several noble Lords mentioned this evening, the Government spend over £500 billion each year on tax relief. The size of this spend means they must always keep the effectiveness and value for money of tax reliefs under review. This Bill addresses just one of these reliefs, pension salary sacrifice. The cost of that was set to treble to £8 billion a year between 2017 and the end of this decade. That growth has been fastest among higher earners, with additional rate taxpayers tripling their salary sacrifice contributions since 2017. But while those on the higher salaries are most likely to take part in salary sacrifice, others are completely excluded. For example, the majority of employers do not offer salary sacrifice, including many small businesses. Groups who are most likely to be undersaving for retirement, such as those on the national minimum wage and the UK’s 4.4 million self-employed workers, are also completely excluded from using salary sacrifice. The status quo is therefore neither fair nor fiscally sustainable. We simply cannot afford to allow the cost of pension salary sacrifice to balloon, benefiting predominantly higher earners.

The Bill therefore contains two main elements: first, to introduce a cap of £2,000 under which no employer and employee national insurance contributions will be charged on any pension contributions. Some 95% of those currently making pension contributions to salary sacrifice earning £30,000 or less will be entirely unaffected. Secondly, we are introducing this change with a long implementation period so that it comes into effect only in 2029-30. This gives employers and employees over three years to prepare and adjust.

The noble Lord, Lord Leigh of Hurley, asked about the Government’s commitment not to increase taxes on working people. As he knows, the Budget in November kept our manifesto promise not to increase income tax, national insurance or VAT. It contained a series of reforms to the tax system to ensure it keeps pace with our fast-changing economy. The cost of pension salary sacrifice was set nearly to triple to £8 billion between 2017 and the end of the decade—as I said before, benefiting mainly higher earners.

The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, spoke extensively about the impact on employers. The Government are taking a pragmatic, balanced approach by introducing a cap which protects ordinary workers and limits the impact on employers while ensuring that the system remains fiscally sustainable. The majority of employers—some 61%—do not offer this kind of salary sacrifice arrangement. Of the employers which do, most sectors, including retail, hospitality and leisure, have salary sacrifice contributions well below the £2,000 cap and are largely protected. Everyone using salary sacrifice will still benefit from the tax advantages available up to the £2,000 cap, this includes employers, which can make up to £300 of employer national insurance contribution savings through salary sacrifice per employee. These changes will not be implemented for over three years. In comparison, the previous Government gave just one year’s notice from announcing their changes to salary sacrifice in 2016 to implementing them from 2017.

The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, also spoke about employers potentially stopping offering salary sacrifice schemes. The Government do not expect significant numbers of employers to stop offering salary sacrifice arrangements. Everyone using salary sacrifice will still benefit from the tax advantages available up to the £2,000 cap.

The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, asked about the cost to employers. The majority of employers do not offer salary sacrifice arrangements, and most sectors, including retail, hospitality and leisure, have salary sacrifice arrangements well below the cap. Everyone using salary sacrifice can still benefit from up to £300 employer national insurance contribution relief under the cap, and the full national insurance contributions relief is available on employer pension contributions outside of salary sacrifice. The Government are working closely with employers and the payroll industry to operationalise the change in the most effective way.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady Kramer, and the noble Lord, Lord de Clifford, spoke about the impact on small businesses. Small businesses are far less likely than larger businesses to offer pension salary sacrifice. Only 10% of employees in SMEs have pension contributions through salary sacrifice exceeding the cap, compared with 18% of employees in larger firms. The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, also spoke about the impact on retail, hospitality and leisure businesses. As I have said already, most firms in this sector have salary sacrifice contributions well below the £2,000 cap and are therefore largely protected.

The noble Lords, Lord Londesborough and Lord de Clifford, spoke about the impact on low earners. Higher earners are most likely to be using salary sacrifice and the majority of those currently using salary sacrifice will be unaffected by the changes. The Bill impacts only employees who use salary sacrifice to make pension contributions, which is around 35% of employees. Those earning at or near the national living wage cannot use salary sacrifice at all. The noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, also asked about basic rate taxpayers. The £2,000 cap is worth up to £160 a year for basic rate taxpayers. Those earning below £30,000 making pension contributions through salary sacrifice are overwhelmingly protected, with only 5% making pension contributions above the cap.

The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, asked about individuals earning around the £50,000 mark. The Government are taking a pragmatic, balanced approach by introducing a cap which protects ordinary workers and limits the impact on employers, while ensuring that the system remains fiscally sustainable. Everyone can still save up to £2,000 via salary sacrifice free of national insurance contributions. Amounts sacrificed above £2,000 will continue to be fully relievable from income tax, but we must continue to ensure that the £500 billion of tax reliefs provided each year are effective and provide value for money.

The noble Lord, Lord Leigh of Hurley, asked about the profile of the costings, also mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Ashcombe. The costings reflect independent OBR scrutiny and use the best available data on current salary sacrifice and bonus sacrifice behaviour. Employees will respond to the changes in a number of ways. One way is that many employees will switch to making ordinary pension contributions, some of which will be to relief at source schemes. Where an employee contributes to a relief at source scheme, they will initially pay higher rate and additional rate income tax on their pension contributions and then reclaim this through their self-assessment tax return in the next year. This creates a temporary timing effect. Beyond the forecast period, this effect becomes very small.

The noble Baroness, Lady Maclean of Redditch, asked about indexing the £2,000 cap. The Government have no plans to index the cap, but we will keep the £2,000 level under review to ensure that it continues to meet its objectives and remains fair across the labour market. This is consistent with the approach to other pension tax reliefs, including the annual allowance.

The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, asked about the costings of this policy and about the savings generated from this change. The costings for this policy have been scrutinised and certified by the Office for Budget Responsibility in its economic and fiscal outlook. They already account for changes in employer behaviour, including employers providing higher employer pension contributions to replicate the national insurance contribution benefits of salary sacrifice. We remain confident of these costings.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady Kramer, and the noble Lord, Lord Leigh of Hurley, suggested that this was designed only to meet the fiscal rules in 2029-30. The reality is that the Government are giving employers sufficient time to prepare and adjust their systems by implementing the changes from April 2029. That is over three years’ notice before the changes take effect. We are also engaging with employers, payroll administrators and other stakeholders on the administration of the cap to provide certainty ahead of implementation.

On that specific point, also raised by the noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady Altmann, and the noble Lords, Lord Leigh of Hurley and Lord Fuller, about the administration of this policy, HMRC is engaging with a wide range of stakeholders in the payroll, employer and software developer industries to work through exactly how the cap will be implemented. This will be vital to ensuring it is implemented in the least burdensome way possible for employers. Engagement will also help inform the secondary legislation, in which the detail of the operability will be set out and further consulted on.

My noble friend Lord Davies of Brixton spoke about how salary sacrifice is just one part of the pension landscape, and I say that to the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, who did not mention during her contribution that saving into a pension, including via salary sacrifice, will remain hugely tax advantageous even under these changes. The Government currently provide over £70 billion of income tax and national insurance contribution relief on pension contributions each year. That spend will be entirely unaffected by these changes. Employees’ pension contributions, including those made via salary sacrifice, will continue to be fully relievable from income tax at the employee’s marginal rate. For employers, all pension contributions remain exempt from both income tax and national insurance contributions. This makes pensions one of the most tax-efficient ways to invest in their workforce.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe, Lady Altmann and Lady Kramer, spoke about the impact on pension savings. The Government do not believe that these changes will negatively impact the overall level of pension saving. Salary sacrifice existed in the 2000s and early 2010s, yet there were significant falls in private sector pension savings during this period. In 2012, only one in three private sector workers saved into a pension.

As I said in my opening, the key factor that led to an increase in saving in recent years is not the complicated national insurance reliefs available to some employees but rather automatic enrolment, which the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, spoke about, and which has reversed the collapse in workplace pension savings. As a result of automatic enrolment, over 22 million workers across the UK are now saving each month. The Office for Budget Responsibility has also made it clear in its economic and fiscal outlook that it does not expect a material impact on savings behaviour as a result of the tax changes made in the Budget.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Altmann and Lady Kramer, spoke about the impact on individuals who are currently undersaving. The groups that we know are undersaving for their pension, including low earners, women and the self-employed, are the least likely to use salary sacrifice. Workers on the national living wage are excluded entirely from salary sacrifice, and so are the 4.4 million self-employed people across the UK. By contrast, these changes overwhelmingly affect higher and additional rate taxpayers. In 2030, 87% of affected salary sacrifice pension contributions made from earnings will be from higher and additional rate taxpayers.

The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, also mentioned the Pensions Commission. There is cross-party agreement on the importance of the work of the Pensions Commission as it examines questions of adequacy and fairness. The Government will not prejudge the commission’s work.

The Budget in November contained pro-growth choices to maintain economic stability, reject austerity, protect investment and back the fast-growing companies of the future, but these are choices which need to be paid for. That is why this Bill reforms pension salary sacrifice to ensure that our tax system is kept on a sustainable footing. The Bill protects lower and middle earners, gives employers many years to prepare, and preserves the incentives that underpin workplace saving. These are fair and balanced reforms. They build on the steps already taken by the previous Government to reform salary sacrifice and strengthen our economy for the long term. I beg to move.

Bill read a second time and committed to a Grand Committee.

National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Read Full debate

This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill 2024-26 passage through Parliament.

In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.

This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here

This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record

Moved by
1: Clause 1, page 1, line 10, after “tax” insert “at the higher or additional rate”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would exempt basic rate taxpayers in England, Wales and Scotland from the £2,000 cap.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am delighted to open proceedings with my noble friend Lord Altrincham on our first day in Committee and to be joined in this group by my noble friend Lord Leigh and the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann.

This is not a Bill we welcome. Contributors to research done by HMRC published last year were critical of all the hypothetical scenarios put forward by the Government, including the £2,000 cap, which I believe was seen as the most complicated option presented. This proposal will add to administrative burdens on business, as will become clear when we debate later amendments, especially where people have multiple jobs, start or change employment or vary what they do seasonally.

We are also greatly concerned that it will limit incentives to save, punish normal working people for making prudent and sensible decisions, and reduce pension adequacy. Pensions adequacy is one of the central long-term economic challenges facing this country and, under this Government, it is only set to get far worse. Today we are looking at another small nail in the coffin of such adequacy. Of course, the proposal was not in the Labour manifesto, which I think promised not to raise taxes on working people.

The research by HMRC has shown that employers were seriously concerned that

“changing the pension system could inevitably cause confusion and risk people becoming more disengaged with pensions”.

Against this unsatisfactory background, Amendments 1 and 14 make a simple but very important clarification, which is to exempt basic rate taxpayers from the £2,000 cap. According to the Society of Pension Professionals, one-quarter of the people who enjoy salary sacrifice, and who will be hit by the changes that this Bill will bring in, are basic rate taxpayers. Around 850,000 basic rate taxpayers will be affected by the cap, with possibly greater numbers joining them, as the cap is not indexed. The Minister might dispute those specific numbers, but even he conceded at Second Reading that people earning under £30,000 would be affected by this change.

Not only does this contrast starkly with the Government’s stated ambition, as set out in the Explanatory Notes and by the Minister at Second Reading, to affect only higher earners; it also disproportionately affects lower-paid workers. Salary sacrifice, as we know, allows an employee to give up a portion of their pay so that it is paid directly into their pension. That does not just attract income tax relief, as all pension contributions do; it also enables national insurance contributions to be saved on the amount transferred. So it is the contribution that working people pay every month that lies at the heart of this issue. Higher rate taxpayers continue to benefit from relief related to their tax rate of 40%. Basic rate taxpayers benefit less, since their tax rate is only 20%. We are talking, on Treasury estimates, about 850,000 basic rate taxpayers.

For a basic rate taxpayer, the 8% national insurance loss amounts to two-fifths of the value of their income tax relief. In absolute terms, the marginal cost of this policy is four times higher for lower-paid workers than for those on higher incomes. The problem goes further: this is a harsher blow to certain groups of savers than many had anticipated, particularly those repaying student loans. That is why I very much support Amendment 3 in the name of my noble friend Lord Leigh, which would prevent those repaying student loans from being hit by a double whammy. I will leave it to him to explain the detail.

Graduates begin repaying their loans once earnings exceed £28,745, at a rate of 9% if they are on the plan 2 scheme. If the Bill is unamended, graduates using salary sacrifice will no longer see that 9% effectively redirected into their pension via salary sacrifice once they exceed the £2,000 cap. For those individuals, the effective loss is not just 8% in national insurance but 17% at the margin.

This comes at a time when the newspapers are full of furious comment about the high interest rates—inflation plus a huge 3%—payable on plan 2 loans. The announcement over the weekend by Kemi Badenoch to support a cut in the rate of interest charged on some student loans issued in the decade up to 2023 is therefore most welcome and is a clear step toward addressing this problem, which the Government, distressingly, seem content to live with.

The interaction between that major issue of public concern today and this Bill on salary sacrifice comes through clearly in a comment from the director of the Chartered Institute of Taxation. She said:

“The change will disproportionately affect basic rate taxpayers because they will pay at 8% NIC on contributions over the £2,000 cap, compared with a 2% charge on higher earners. It will also disproportionately impact those with student loans who earn above the repayment threshold, as they will have incurred an extra 9% student loan deduction from their pay”.


At a time when we are urging people to do the right thing—to save, to plan ahead and to take responsibility for their retirement—the Government are choosing to hit lower-paid workers harder. That is the unavoidable consequence of how this policy operates in practice.

Worse still, it falls most heavily on a younger generation who already face higher housing costs, who paid for their university education and who now find work taxed more heavily under this Government’s jobs tax—last year’s £25 billion NICs changes, which we discussed in this Room and which we rightly warned would devastate youth employment. Because that prediction has proved accurate, especially for young people, the Government would be wise to listen to the concerns aired today and outside and make changes to this Bill. It is ironic in a way that we are considering this at the same time as the Pension Schemes Bill, which is designed to improve pension saving and the incentive to save. We are doing the opposite here: making pension saving harder, less attractive and less fair.

Our amendments provide a simple solution for the Minister. By exempting basic rate taxpayers from coming under the cap, we would ensure that the Government’s stated aim is achieved and that we modify what is in effect a regressive tax. Our amendment offers a simple, targeted means of mitigating the harm that this policy will cause to some of the more financially vulnerable people in our society and I urge the Minister to accept it. If he cannot, he should explain to the Committee why his Government are choosing to disincentivise people from taking responsibility for their own future at precisely the moment when state pensions are under significant strain, which is set to intensify in the years ahead. Lower savings today means lower retirement income tomorrow and greater reliance on the state for future needs.

I turn to my Amendments 2 and 15, which ask the Minister a very simple question. What precisely does the Treasury mean by a “higher earner”? Throughout the passage of this Bill, the Government have repeatedly justified this policy on the basis that it is targeted at higher earners. At Second Reading, the noble Lord, Lord Livermore, described the reforms as “fair and balanced” and said that they,

“protect lower and middle earners”.—[Official Report, 4/2/26; col. 1684.]

Similarly, the Explanatory Notes state plainly that the Bill

“limits the NICs relief available to higher earners”.

Those are the Government’s words, but nowhere in the Bill, in the Explanatory Notes or in the Minister’s speech is the term “higher earner” actually defined.

That is a serious matter, because the practical effect of this policy suggests that it reaches well beyond any intuitive understanding of what a “higher earner” might be. The Minister has already acknowledged that individuals earning £30,000 and below will be affected. Industry experts have warned that those earning between £30,000 and £60,000 are likely to feel the impact most acutely. Median earnings in the UK are around £37,000 and, in London, they are £10,000 greater. Given this, who are these “higher earners” to whom the Treasury refers?

Since the election, we have heard a succession of phrases from the Treasury: working people, ordinary earners, higher earners. The language shifts, but what has remained constant is the refusal to define these terms. When this House considered the national insurance Bill last year, we warned that the burden would ultimately fall on working people. That proved correct; and the same risk arises here that rhetoric about protecting lower and middle earners does not align with the actual distributional impact of the policy, and the Government are allowed to get away with it because they never set the goalposts in the first place. If the Government’s objective is generally to protect those on lower and middle incomes, that objective must be capable of scrutiny. Scrutiny requires definition. Without definition, we cannot assess whether the Government are meeting their own stated aims. That seems a basic requirement of transparency in fiscal policy-making. I look forward to the debate, and I beg to move.

Lord Leigh of Hurley Portrait Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I shall congratulate my noble friends Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lord Altrincham and the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, on Amendments 1 and 2, then I will speak to my Amendments 3 and 16.

This Bill has a number of disadvantages to the economy and society, as it penalises pension saving and retirement security while, of course, leading to higher costs and a higher administrative burden for employers. It may also lead to some employers reducing pension generosity or even scrapping salary sacrifice schemes altogether, so it may well discourage and disincentivise good behaviour. One has to question whether the limited expected tax yield justifies the cost, particularly as we know that behavioural response will reduce the amount of tax generated, and it simply is not fair for many people, disproportionately affecting certain groups such as savers and lower-income earners.

However, the Government cannot argue that it was in their manifesto, because it was not. In fact, it was the reverse—the manifesto pledged no increases in tax, including national insurance. We can argue that it is important that we have a very good look at certain aspects of this Bill and try to point out its shortcomings, together with making some constructive and, I hope, helpful amendments. After all, it looks like some 44% of employees using salary sacrifice for pensions will be impacted by this measure. It is important that we look at the Bill in detail, as the Society of Pension Professionals—SPP—has warned the Government that planned restrictions to salary sacrifice could reduce retirement saving and increase costs for hundreds of thousands of employers and millions of workers. The SPP has warned that the changes are likely to reduce pension savings at a time when government figures already show that 15 million people are not saving enough for adequate retirement; that rises to 25 million if the state pension triple lock is removed.

The Reward and Employee Benefits Association has warned that this Bill will put strain on businesses and push millions of people into poorer retirement. In a survey it undertook, an overwhelming 99% of businesses said the organisation would be affected by the cap and 70% said this Bill would increase the administrative burden. Furthermore, a third of businesses expect the change will make it difficult for them to attract and retain talent. It has been described as a change from sleepwalking into a retirement crisis into speedwalking into one.

I appreciate that all I have said is somewhat of a preamble, but it needs to be said, and it will be said by me only once, although it applies to all the amendments we will discuss today and possibly on Thursday—although I gather the plan now is to curtail debate today if at all practical. Is the noble Lord waving at me? Does he not know either? Fair enough. I always pay attention to Government Whips waving at me.

I turn to Amendments 3 and 16—parallel amendments because of Northern Ireland—in my name and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann. They deal with the complications this Bill brings in respect of student loans. I appreciate this is a little technical and complicated and may not be best resolved by debate in this Committee so much as by discussion between all relevant parties before Report. I thank my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for setting me up to explain it all. I will do my best but, as I say, this may be a difficult format in which so to do.

--- Later in debate ---
Lord Leigh of Hurley Portrait Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, prompted as I am by my noble friend Lord Mackinlay, may I just take a moment to remind the Committee that I am a member by qualification of the Chartered Institute of Taxation and have received very helpful briefings from it?

Lord Livermore Portrait The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Livermore) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to respond to the debate on this first group of amendments. I thank all noble Lords who have contributed.

This first set of amendments, in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady Altmann, and the noble Lord, Lord Altrincham, seeks to exempt basic rate taxpayers from the Bill. I have listened closely to the points raised and the concerns expressed during this debate. The Government have ensured that the measures in the Bill do not affect the majority of basic rate taxpayers. Around 74% of basic rate taxpayers currently using salary sacrifice will be protected by the £2,000 cap, and almost all—95%—of those earning £30,000 or less will be protected. The small number of basic rate taxpayers with contributions above £2,000 will continue to benefit from employee national insurance relief, worth £160 a year, in addition to the full income tax relief that they receive on their pension contributions. Of the small number basic rate taxpayers who are impacted, half will face an annual additional national insurance contributions liability of less than £50.

While we recognise the intention behind the amendments laid by the noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady Altmann, and the noble Lord, Lord Altrincham, exempting basic rate taxpayers would, in practice, be operationally challenging and add significant further complexity to the tax system. That is because the tax system can confirm which band an individual is in only at the end of a tax year, when reconciliation of their income tax liabilities has taken place. Adding complexity to the system would also likely lead to an increase in costs for employers, as they would be required to bear the burden of identifying the full extent of their employees’ potentially multiple sources of income.

This leads me to the amendments in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, and the noble Lord, Lord Altrincham, which seek clarity on the basis on which the Government consider certain employed earners to be “higher earners” for the purposes of the national insurance charge, as well as how the contributions limit reflects that assessment. The Explanatory Notes set out that the policy rationale is to limit

“the NICs relief available to higher earners on employer pension contributions made through salary sacrifice arrangements whilst protecting lower earning pension savers by introducing a £2,000 threshold. Most employees and their employers who make typical pensions contributions via salary sacrifice will be unaffected”.

This is indeed the effect of the Bill. Some 87% of pension contributions made via salary sacrifice above £2,000 are forecast to come from higher and additional rate taxpayers. Some 74% of basic rate taxpayers using salary sacrifice will be protected by the £2,000 cap, and almost all—95%—of those earning £30,000 or less will be protected.

Let me turn lastly to the amendments in this grouping tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Leigh of Hurley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann. They seek to exempt salary sacrificed pension contributions over the limit from being included in student loan repayments definitions to employees making student loan repayments. The salary sacrifice changes made through the Bill equalise the national insurance contributions treatment of salary sacrifice above the cap with other types of employee pension contribution, which are counted as earnings when calculating student loan repayments.

There may or may not be good arguments for or against that, but we do not consider this Bill an appropriate vehicle through which to amend the basis of student loan repayments. The basis of calculating income from student loan repayments is set out in separate regulations, and we do not believe that this Bill should seek to vary that. It is also the case that, of employees making contributions via salary sacrifice, younger people are much more likely to be fully protected by the £2,000 cap than those over the age of 30. Some 76% of those in their 20s who use salary sacrifice are protected by the cap, compared to half of those aged 30 and above.

In the light of the points I have made, I respectfully ask noble Lords to withdraw or not press their amendments.

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am pleased that we have begun Committee by addressing this issue and grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Leigh of Hurley, who seemed to be saying—I think with support from outside bodies—that the Treasury’s financial estimates were over-optimistic. That may, of course, be true of the figures that the noble Lord, Lord Livermore, has kindly given us, which we will obviously need to have a look at, on the effect of the change.

The difficulty as I see it is that the policy remains vague. Its impacts are largely unknown and the income group it is intended to capture is undefined. The Treasury’s assessment of how it will operate in practice has been inadequate. It is a complex mechanism by which to raise a relatively modest amount of revenue and does not take effect until 2029. It is a tool, if not a very sensible one, designed to make the Chancellor’s sums add up, rather than a longer-term policy. Even if the Government succeed in raising anything like the figure set out in the Treasury note, the projected yield declines sharply within just a few years of implementation.

There is also an issue of definition. I think the potential cost is greater. As the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said, there is a risk that middle and lower-income workers, and those paying basic rates of tax, will be drawn into scope. After all, this is a dynamic situation—we will come on to discuss whether there are ways of tackling that—but it could have serious consequences, and we would need to come back to the point about pension saving, long-term adequacy and, ultimately, future liabilities for the state. There is also an issue about irregular payments—“bonuses” was the word used by the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough. The majority of bonuses, in my experience, are small, as I know from my time at Tesco, but they can be used usefully to invest in pensions.

The absence of any safeguard in the Bill to prevent basic rate taxpayers being captured is a significant omission. If the Government are confident that such individuals will be protected, they should be willing to put that protection in the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Ashcombe, rightly supported the need for transparency, and of course Amendment 2, which requires Ministers to define “higher earners”, would achieve just that. Even the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, agreed that there was a “kink in the line”.

Her Majesty’s Opposition are very concerned about the unfair impact on those struggling to pay their student loans at a rate of interest which is impossible to justify. The Government must look seriously at how to mitigate this, as my noble friend Lord Leigh of Hurley explained with his customary vim, and to do this in the Bill—not promise to do something elsewhere. This is a big issue that has been raised and it has to be solved. We are very sympathetic to those with big debts, which they will have to pay off under the loans scheme, so a way needs to be found to help them.

There is an ambiguity, as my noble friend Lord Mackinlay of Richborough said from his position as a tax expert, and we need to listen to him. He also warned of its damaging implications, on top of those already introduced for IHT on pensions. This is part of a wider attack on pensions which it is important to do something about if we are to tackle the problems of long-term pension sustainability.

I beg leave to withdraw my amendment, but I may need to come back to this on Report, as it is at the heart of the acceptability of this Bill.

Amendment 1 withdrawn.
--- Later in debate ---
Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I shall speak first to the amendments in this group that stand in my name and then to those tabled by my noble friends. The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, helpfully outlined a list of banana skins or uncertainties from her experience, such as the cost of changes in employment contracts and payroll software and of dealing with employees concerned about the change. She was right to ask whether we need to legislate so rapidly given the complexities that seem to be thrown up by today’s useful debate.

My amendments, Amendments 5 and 18, helpfully supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, chiefly concern the principle of parliamentary oversight. Nothing is more central to our work. Under Clauses 1 and 2, the Bill quite properly provides that regulations reducing the £2,000 contributions limit must be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. That is right. If the Treasury lowers the cap, Parliament must be given the final say. What the Bill does not provide is affirmative scrutiny where the Treasury alters the methodology by which the cap is calculated or applied. That omission is significant because new subsections (6C) and (6D) do not deal with minor technical points but determine how the policy will operate in practice for thousands of earners whose pay patterns do not fit a neat monthly model.

Let us look at new subsection (6C). It permits regulations to prescribe an equivalent contributions limit for those paid weekly or at other intervals. That phrase “other intervals” is remarkably broad. It covers shift workers, contractors, seasonal workers, gig economy participants, those on irregular pay cycles and those with multiple employments. People in these forms of employment make up a large and growing segment of the modern labour market, yet the detail of how the limit will be translated for those individuals is not in the Bill. It is left entirely to regulations and consultation, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said. The annual cap is scrutinised in primary legislation, but, inconsistently, the translation of that cap into weekly, irregular or non-standard pay structures, the arrangements when an employee moves and other detail of importance to both workers and those operating payrolls, are to be set out later in regulations without the same degree of parliamentary approval. These points can be material in terms of compliance costs and fairness. In other words, those whose circumstances fit most neatly within the annual framework benefit from full parliamentary scrutiny, while those whose pay patterns are more complex do not. We submit that if the methodology by which the cap is applied to those workers is altered in a way that materially changes who pays and how much, that is a policy decision and one which requires greater scrutiny from your Lordships’ House and the other place.

The same concerns arise under new subsection (6D). There, the Treasury is given powers to determine by regulation when amounts treated as remuneration are deemed to be paid, in prescribed cases to treat a figure other than the amount foregone as remuneration and to calculate that alternative figure in such manner and on such basis as may be prescribed. These are extremely broad powers. They allow the Treasury not merely to administer the cap but to redefine how remuneration is attributed and calculated for NICs purposes. If such methodological changes can be made without returning to Parliament for affirmative approval, the House will have ceded oversight of important mechanisms that determine the real-world effect of this new policy.

My amendments simply make the point that where the method by which the contributions limit is calculated or applied is altered, Parliament should have the opportunity to approve the change. The Committee is currently scrutinising the Bill line by line. We are examining the consequences. It would be inconsistent if, once enacted, substantial changes could be introduced through regulations subject only to the negative procedure. If the Government are confident that any such changes would be technical and uncontroversial, they should have no objection to subjecting them to affirmative scrutiny.

These provisions will affect real employers and real employees. They will determine compliance burdens, payroll calculations and the effective tax treatment of pension saving. They are not trivial matters. In short, where the substance of the policy shifts, Parliament should be asked to approve that shift. I hope the Minister will recognise that this is a sound and serious constitutional point and give it proper consideration.

Amendments 4 and 17, tabled by my noble friend Lord Leigh of Hurley, make an interesting case. The Government’s policy intent, as set out in the Explanatory Notes, is to apply a national insurance change where pension contributions are made pursuant to optional remuneration arrangements—in other words, where an employee has chosen to forgo cash pay in return for an employer pension contribution. However, there are some workplace pension arrangements where no such option exists: the employee is not offered a cash alternative, there is no choice between salary and pension, and the employer contribution is simply part of the structured remuneration package.

In these circumstances, it is difficult to see how the arrangements can properly be described as optional. There is no alternative compensation available and there is no optionality. The amendment therefore makes clear that where no cash alternative is offered, the arrangement should not be treated as an optional remuneration arrangement for the purposes of the new NICs charges. I would therefore be grateful if the Minister could clarify whether arrangements with no genuine cash alternative are intended to fall within the scope of the Bill. If not, I hope he might look favourably on this clarification.

My noble friend Lord Leigh’s Amendment 33 makes a further important point that the Bill should not come into force until the Treasury has published clear guidance setting out how the contributions limit will apply in cases of multiple concurrent employments. This is a matter of basic administrative clarity and fairness. The question about two caps for two jobs came from my noble friend himself, and it would be interesting to know the answer.

My noble friend Lord Mackinlay doubts whether guidance is the right route, and wants to know what the arrangements will be today, with amendments to the Bill if we believe—in the light of the answers—that that is needed. We certainly need clarity, a change to the scrutiny of regulations to the affirmative, and perhaps guidance when we have the answers.

Finally, I turn to Amendment 4A in the name of my noble friend Lord Fuller. As drafted, the Bill introduces a flat £2,000 annual limit, above which salary sacrifice to employer pensions will attract national insurance. It is a hard cap. But real earnings do not operate in neat annual instalments; for many people, remuneration fluctuates significantly from year to year. Without any carry-forward mechanism of the kind well articulated by my noble friend Lord Mackinlay, which is apparently not very costly, the Bill creates a cliff edge. An individual who sacrifices modestly for several years but has a single high-earning year will be treated as if that year existed in isolation. That is not how pension saving works elsewhere in the tax system.

The pensions annual allowance regime already provides a three-year forward framework. Amendments 4B and 17B would align the national insurance treatment with that established precedent. The alternative amendments, Amendments 4A and 17A, simply provide the Treasury with a permissive power to introduce such a mechanism. They offer flexibility should Ministers be concerned about immediate fiscal implications.

Amendment 29A would require an independent review within 18 months of implementation. The Bill introduces a new compliance framework affecting payroll systems, remuneration design and pension planning. Therefore, it is entirely reasonable that Parliament should require evidence of its real-world impact, particularly on fluctuating earners and on employer administrative burdens. I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, that the extra burden of complexity on employers can be dismissed, particularly now we have heard that currently there is so little interaction between second and third employers. We want fewer burdens, not more. Enough is enough, and I look forward to a proper and detailed response on these very important technical points.

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I begin by addressing Amendments 4 and 17, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Leigh of Hurley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann. These amendments relate to the technical and operational detail of the legislation, including the definition of “optional remuneration arrangements” and procedure. I fully understand the concern underlying them, which is to ensure that the Bill operates in a targeted, proportionate way and does not inadvertently affect ordinary employer pension contributions. The Government share this objective and I am grateful for this opportunity to clarify our intent.

The Bill before the Committee already relies on the established definition of “optional remuneration arrangements” set out in the Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003; this is the same framework that has applied since the optional remuneration arrangement rules were introduced in 2017. Under that definition, the rules apply only where an employee is given a choice—for example, a choice between receiving earnings or receiving employer pension contributions instead. This includes salary sacrifice arrangements, where an employee agrees to a lower cash salary in exchange for a pension contribution, or situations where an employee chooses pension contributions in place of a cash allowance.

Importantly, the Bill does not affect employer pension contributions where no such choice exists. Where an employer makes pension contributions as a standard part of the remuneration package and there is no alternative of cash or earnings available to the employee, those arrangements do not fall within the definition of “optional remuneration arrangements” and are, therefore, outside the scope of the Bill. In those cases, standard employer pension contributions will continue to be fully exempt from national insurance contributions, exactly as they are now. Nothing in this legislation changes that position.

Baroness Altmann Portrait Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

May I ask for some clarification? The Government’s intention is to try to encourage higher pension contributions. If an employer decides to increase their pension contributions, how would one know that that had not been at the expense of some salary they might otherwise have paid? Would it just never be caught? Can we safely assume that increased employer pension contributions will not be caught unless there is some official paper that says, “This was instead of salary”?

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I suppose I would ask the noble Baroness: who does she mean when she asks, “How would one know”? Who is “one” in that instance? HMRC? That would be reported to HMRC, would it not?

Baroness Altmann Portrait Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As what? It would just be an increase in pension contributions because the employer has decided to increase the amount they will provide for their staff from, say, 6% to 8%. It is nothing to do with what they are paying the staff; it is not the result of negotiation. Their standard contribution was 6% and is, perhaps, going to 8%. Some people might be concerned that that would be considered by HMRC as an optional arrangement because the pensioning contribution has gone up, although that may not have been intended. The Government’s intention is, I hope, to get employer contributions to increase.

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The example given by the noble Baroness is not a salary-sacrificed pension contribution. What she is describing is exactly what you would want to happen. Surely you want the pension contribution to go from 6% to 8%.

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I do not understand where the problem is, because that is a good thing.

Baroness Altmann Portrait Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The issue is that there seems to be a risk. Can we somehow—I am not quite clear how—clarify in the Bill in case HMRC might decide that that is caught by the Bill?

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am happy to take this away and look at it, but I cannot see any way in which that would be the situation. Employers presumably increase their pension contributions all the time. That is a good public policy outcome. There is no way in which that would be caught by these regulations. I have made that extremely clear in what I am saying.

--- Later in debate ---
Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a perfectly good outcome if the employer increases their contribution into an employee’s pension. That is something we want to achieve. On specifically how HMRC would view that, I am very happy to take that away, but I do not believe in any way, in what I am saying, that that is the intention of what we are doing.

I will finish what I was saying. In those cases, standard employer pension contributions will continue to be fully exempt from national insurance contributions, exactly as they are now. Nothing in this legislation changes that position. For these reasons, the Bill already draws the correct boundary by relying on a well-established and familiar legal definition. It targets only those arrangements where an employee is given a choice between cash and pension provision, and it does not interfere with ordinary, non-optional employer pension contributions.

I turn to Amendments 5 and 18 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, and supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and the noble Lord, Lord Altrincham. These amendments relate to parliamentary scrutiny and procedure. I agree with noble Lords about the importance of maintaining strong parliamentary scrutiny, particularly where changes could affect individuals’ national insurance liabilities. That is an important principle and one that the Government share. That is why the Bill contains a series of safeguards to protect scrutiny and transparency.

The Bill explicitly provides that, where regulations are used to reduce the generosity of the £2,000 limit—that is, where changes would lower the contribution limit and thereby increase the amount of earnings subject to class 1 national insurance contributions—those regulations would be subject to the affirmative procedure. This ensures that any change which tightens the policy or increases liability is brought before Parliament for full scrutiny and approval.

By contrast, where regulations are made simply to implement the policy, to set out administrative arrangements or to increase the £2,000 limit, thereby resulting in less national insurance being payable, it is standard practice for those regulations to be subject to the negative procedure. That approach reflects the well-established distinction between substantive policy changes and regulations which deal with administration or confer additional relief.

This is not a new or novel approach. It follows the established precedent for regulations made under the existing powers in Section 4(6) and Section 4A of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 and the corresponding Northern Ireland legislation. In those cases, regulations of an administrative or beneficial nature have routinely been subject to the negative procedure.

I also note that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has carefully scrutinised the powers in the Bill, including the proposed level of parliamentary scrutiny. The Committee has confirmed that there is nothing in the Bill that it wished to draw to the special attention of the House.

Taken together, these provisions ensure an appropriate and proportionate balance: robust parliamentary oversight where the policy is made less generous, and a well-established, efficient procedure for setting out administrative detail and making changes that operate in favour of contributors.

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Before the Minister moves on, would he consider making an affirmative regulation on the very first occasion? The discussions that we have had this evening show that there is quite a bit of complexity here, and that has compliance costs for employers and employees. It seems odd to take the precedent of the social security Act on something new and difficult. I wonder whether that would be worth considering. Perhaps the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee did not have the benefit of the experts here who have explained some of the problems. I am sure the Minister cannot say anything today, but could he at least have a look at whether the first such regulations could be by affirmative resolution, which is a practice that I have encountered with lots of other Bills that we probably worked on together?

Lord Fuller Portrait Lord Fuller (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

If I may interject, especially with such a load of—

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I have set out very clearly which will be approached with the negative procedure and the affirmative procedure, and I do not think it is our intention to deviate from that very clear precedent.

Amendment 33, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Leigh of Hurley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, relates to the operability of the contributions limit for those with multiple concurrent jobs. Amendments 4A, 4B, 17A, 17B and 29A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Fuller, also relate to operability of the contributions limit, with a focus on those with fluctuating earnings and their employers.

I fully understand the concerns that noble Lords have raised about how this measure will operate in practice, particularly for those with more complex employment arrangements and irregular patterns of remuneration. While the Bill provides the necessary powers, the full operational detail of the £2,000 cap will be set out in regulations that are yet to be published. The purpose of this two-stage process is to ensure that when the cap is introduced, it operates effectively across a wide range of real-world circumstances, including for individuals with multiple jobs, complex payroll arrangements, changing employment or fluctuating remuneration patterns over the course of a year.

Lord Mackinlay of Richborough Portrait Lord Mackinlay of Richborough (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Is the Minister’s understanding of the Bill that the £2,000 threshold will be in the entirety of a single employee or across each employment? At the moment, with NI regulations the employee benefits from different thresholds in each employment that is held. That means that with less than £12,570 in each multiple employment no employee national insurance is paid at all. Is the intention for it to be £2,000 in total across any number of employments, or £2,000 per employment?

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That intention will be set out in the regulations once we have fully consulted relevant employers.

Lord Fuller Portrait Lord Fuller (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

There is a transfer of risk, of prejudice, from the individual, who is responsible under the current arrangements, to the employer. That has not been fleshed out at all. If you have a salary sacrifice that is processed by the employer, all of a sudden that employer trespasses on the duty at the end of the tax year for the employee to put in his tax return. There has been a muddying of the water here between the employee and the employer. I know we are going to come back on Report, and I hope we will get it done in a day, but the Government should lay out their approach to this and state where the liability sits and where the penalties may be applied for honest mistakes made in that interface between the employer and the employee. That is not at all clear, and it should be.

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his further thoughts. The carryover feature—

Baroness Kramer Portrait Baroness Kramer (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I do not want to be problematic here, but I wonder whether the Minister can understand that we are looking at a very different Bill and very different implications if the £2,000 contribution limit is per individual across a range of employments, or per job, and perhaps they have three or four. It is a fundamental difference, and while the details of how things would be done in the future and the operational issues may well have to wait for regulation, guidance and consultation, it seems to me that that core issue defines this Bill, and we should know that before we complete its passage.

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Obviously, I hear what the noble Baroness says.

The carryover feature of the pensions annual allowance, referenced in the justification for the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Fuller, sets the maximum amount of tax-relieved pension savings an individual can build up in a tax year without triggering a tax charge, which for most people is £60,000. The carryover feature is intended to accommodate one-off irregular spikes in pension saving or defined benefit accrual. The annual allowance carry-forward requires individuals to hold or obtain accurate records to track usage and eligibility and is not intended for day-to-day retirement planning. The Government do not consider it suitable to introduce a similar mechanism in the context of the cap on national insurance contribution-free pension saving in the Bill.

Before the detailed regulations that support the introduction of this change are finalised, HMRC will work closely with employers, payroll providers and software developers to ensure the policy operates smoothly for businesses and individuals. This engagement is not a formality. It is a necessary step to ensure that we collaboratively identify the best and most workable way to apply the £2,000 national insurance contributions-free limit, minimise administrative burdens and avoid unintended consequences, particularly for those whose earnings are spread across more than one employment.

Taking the time to engage properly and test implementation options is the best way to ensure that the policy works as intended from the outset. That is why the Government have committed sufficient time to work with stakeholders, up to and including the preparation of the important guidance for operation that the noble Lord, Lord Fuller, has raised in Amendment 29A.

On Amendment 29A, which proposes a reporting provision on the administrative cost borne by employers, I note that, upon the introduction of the Bill to Parliament, a tax information and impact note was published by the Government, setting out the impact of this policy’s operationalisation on employees and their employers. Supporting those who will implement this change within their organisations is vital, but we do not agree that that support should take the form of additional reporting requirements.

In light of all the points I have made, I respectfully ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.

Lord Leigh of Hurley Portrait Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, this debate has been very helpful because it has sort of blown a hole in the Bill. The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, summed it up rightly: what has happened is that the Government started with the answer and then tried to find the question. In other words, they were desperately looking to find £4 billion from somewhere and came up with this random salary sacrifice idea. Why salary sacrifice? Why not say that NI on pensions does not apply over X amount and limit it that way? I am afraid that the Bill just does not work.

For example, in the case I raised about a new employee where an employer is negotiating over X amount of salary or Y amount of pension, is that a salary sacrifice? The Minister could not answer that. On the £2,000 cap, the Minister could not answer. He could not answer on the collective bargaining point or whether a bonus applies. On how we deal with multiple employments, I do not think that was satisfactorily answered. I also think that the spreading point was not satisfactorily answered.

I take the point that this provision is not scheduled to come in until April 2029. I respectfully make the point that we might all be busy then on other matters but, given that the earliest is April 2029, is it not right now to pause the Bill, work constructively with us and many others who have much greater knowledge, certainly than people on this Bench, and to think through how we might find a constructive way forward? Just hoping that we might get it right in regulation is bypassing democracy. It is the purpose of the House of Lords to examine Bills, make constructive suggestions, identify and highlight holes and issues, and seek to amend them. It is fair enough that this is what the Government want to do, but they have to be clear as to how it works before the Bill goes through.

I suspect the Government will find fierce opposition to the Bill as it is on Report from a large number of people in the House, so one would hope that the Government will pause, reflect, consider and consult—on the Bill, not in regulations—to enable us to get this right. The Minister is very good at putting himself in our shoes and has done so to some extent, and I hope that he will do so again in respect of these amendments. I particularly hope that Amendment 29A comes in, so that a future Chancellor can produce a report. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 4.

--- Later in debate ---
Lord Leigh of Hurley Portrait Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, it is worth reminding ourselves that this legislation was prompted by a document published in May last year with this eye-catching title: Understanding the Attitudes and Behaviours of Employers Towards Salary Sacrifice for Pensions. It concluded:

“All the hypothetical scenarios explored in this research”,


including the £2,000 cap, were “viewed negatively” by those interviewed. It said that the changes would cause confusion, reduce benefits for employees and disincentivise saving for a pension. The report came to the conclusion that, of the three proposed hypothetical options for change, the £2,000 cap was no more than the least bad option.

As has been discussed here, even the OBR has stated that, in the first year in which this measure bites, there will be an estimated revenue of £4.48 billion from the Bill, but it will drop in the next year to £2.6 billion. That is a massive fall in revenue. Should HM Treasury not be worried about this? Should it not be asking itself, “How can we bring in something that leads to a drop in revenue of 50% in year 1?”? The taxpayer wants to know. Could an assessment be done of whether this is likely to be the case in some of the scenarios set out in these amendments—in particular, the £5,000 and the £10,000? I do not know this, because I do not have the resources to do that, but I suspect that, although bringing the cap in at £5,000 and £10,000 would not lead to the £4.48 billion in year 1, it would lead to a much more consistent figure in the subsequent years, for the long-term benefit of the country. As my noble friend Lord Mackinlay said, it will be a bit of a sugar rush and will force people to make most unfortunate changes in their patterns of savings, which the Government cannot be keen to see happen.

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken in this debate.

First, I will address Amendments 6, 10, 11, 13, 19, 22, 23 and 25 in the names of by the noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady Kramer, and the noble Lords, Lord Altrincham and Lord Londesborough. These amendments seek to uprate the cap by the percentage change in the consumer prices index or the retail prices index. The Government agree on the need to keep the level of the cap under review to ensure that it continues to meet its policy objective: keeping the cost of salary sacrifice tax reliefs on a fiscally sustainable footing while protecting ordinary workers. However, we disagree with the approach set out in these amendments because it would be inconsistent with the approach taken in respect of other pension tax reliefs, which are not routinely indexed with inflation.

For example, in 2023, when the previous Government made changes to the annual allowance, they increased it by a set amount rather than indexing it; the annual allowance was otherwise not routinely uprated or index-linked. The Government are taking a pragmatic, balanced approach to ensuring that the cost of tax relief on salary sacrifice pension contributions remains fiscally sustainable. The future level of the cap in the next decade and beyond is for future Budgets in those decades.

This leads me on to Amendments 7 to 9, 20 and 21 in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe, Lady Kramer and Lady Altmann, and the noble Lords, Lord de Clifford and Lord Londesborough. These amendments seek to increase the cap beyond £2,000. It is important to consider the level of the cap in the wider context of the objectives of this change, which are about keeping the tax system on a sustainable footing while protecting ordinary workers. Without reform, the cost of this tax relief is now set to almost treble in cost, from £2.8 billion to £8 billion, with the vast majority of the benefit going to higher earners because around 62% of salary sacrifice contributions come from the top 20% of earners. Although some tax experts have called for pension salary sacrifice to be abolished entirely, the Government are taking a more measured and pragmatic approach.

As I said earlier this afternoon, the £2,000 cap protects 74% of basic rate taxpayers using salary sacrifice. This means that three-quarters of those earning up to £50,270 a year who use salary sacrifice will be protected by the cap. Almost all—95%—of those earning £30,000 or less who use salary sacrifice will be entirely unaffected by the changes. Some 87% of salary sacrifice contributions above the cap are forecast to be made by higher and additional rate taxpayers. Increasing the level of the cap in the way proposed by these amendments would cost additional money and would undermine the objective of putting this tax relief on a sustainable footing for the future. Such changes should also be considered in the wider context of pension tax relief, which amounts to more than £70 billion each year; that spend will be entirely unaffected by this legislation.

In the light of the points I have made, I respectfully ask noble Lords to withdraw or not press their amendments.

Lord Altrincham Portrait Lord Altrincham (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, as many noble Lords have made clear in their remarks on this group, the policy as currently drafted operates as a rather untargeted tax. Introducing indexation by RPI or CPI—described by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, as the goose and gander amendment—would be a straightforward and proportionate step that the Government could take now to mitigate what I can only assume is an unintended consequence. We on these Benches would also support the higher limits proposed by noble Lords and noble Baronesses today to mitigate behavioural changes that may undermine the objectives of this initiative or the Bill entirely.

The Minister has heard a range of constructive proposals this afternoon as to how this issue might be addressed. I very much hope he has listened carefully to the strength of feeling across the Committee and that he will give serious consideration to adopting one of these solutions. I beg to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---
Moved by
12: Clause 1, page 2, line 27, at end insert—
“(5) The amendments made by this section do not apply where the employer—(a) is a small or medium-sized enterprise, or(b) is a charity or social enterprise which meets the conditions in subsection (6).(6) The conditions are that—(a) the employer meets the definition of a small or medium-sized enterprise in section 465 of the Companies Act 2006, and(b) the employment is carried out wholly or mainly for the purposes of that charity or social enterprise.(7) In this section—“charity” has the meaning given by section 1 of the Charities Act 2011;“social enterprise” means an undertaking which—(a) has as its primary purpose the achievement of social or environmental objectives, and(b) principally reinvests its profits for those purposes;“small or medium-sized enterprise” has the meaning given by section 465 of the Companies Act 2006.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment exempts small and medium-sized enterprises, and small and medium-sized charities and social enterprises, from the provisions of the Bill in Great Britain.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I will speak first to Amendments 12 and 24, which would exempt small and medium-sized enterprises, charities and social enterprises from the salary sacrifice pension contribution cap introduced by the Bill. I also welcome Amendment 27, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, requiring a review of the ability of SMEs to recruit and retain staff.

Small and medium enterprises have been hammered under this Government. They have introduced policies that will cost businesses £25 billion annually in tax compliance alone, according to the firm Together Accounting. Their previous NICs hike added a further £25 billion burden and there are business rate hikes, minimum wage increases and the Employment Rights Act. Is it any wonder that 52 businesses per 10,000 are entering insolvency, nearly double the rate from just five years ago? The Federation of Small Businesses reports that 63% of businesses now cite tax as their primary concern. Business confidence has plummeted. This is something that I have spoken about many times, and the Conservative Party stands with small businesses. They are the lifeblood of our communities, our jobs market and our economy.

Our amendment tries to shield SMEs and charities from what is effectively yet another damaging tax by exempting them from this policy. Given the onslaught SMEs have suffered under the Government, the rationale for this needs little explanation. SMEs operate on thin margins, often without sophisticated accounting mechanisms or payroll and accounting teams. They will be disproportionately affected by this policy and should be exempt.

Turning to charities, before the Budget was even confirmed, the Charity Finance Group ran a survey of the sector specifically on the question of salary sacrifice. It found, and I urge the Committee to note these figures carefully, that 81% of charities reported that the salary sacrifice change would have a negative impact on their ability to offer competitive benefits to staff. Nearly seven in 10 had already started to reduce headcount or expected to do so in the near future, and that was before this further measure. It is not surprising that they are worried, as in my experience charities often have more complex employment arrangements: seasonal working, moving jobs, and weekly rather than monthly pay. They also often have much less sophisticated payroll systems.

CFG warned explicitly that, for charities operating on tight margins, salary sacrifice has been a critical tool and a way both to support staff and to achieve meaningful savings on employer national insurance at the same time, stretching limited resources further while enabling employees to build better pension provision. To cap that mechanism is to remove one of the few cost-efficient tools available to organisations that cannot increase prices, raise equity finance or easily diversify their income when grant funding or public contracts do not keep pace with costs.

The wider context of what has happened to charities under the Bill matters here, too. Last year, on Report, the House of Lords carried amendments to the then national insurance contributions Bill that would have protected small charities with revenues under £1 million from the main NICs rise. However, the Government rejected them, and we have seen what happened there. The Government have said that they want to build a stronger economy and a thriving civil society. That ambition is not well served by a policy that removes from smaller employers and civil society organisations one of the most effective tools that they have to compete for talent and support their people in saving for retirement.

Amendment 26 asks that, within 12 months of this Act coming into force, the Government commission and lay before Parliament an independent review of its impact on small and medium-sized enterprises, including administrative costs, compliance burdens, employment costs and the ability of SMEs to attract and retain staff—and, crucially, that this be assessed in the context of the cumulative changes to employer national insurance since July 2024.

Time and again, the Government’s approach has displayed a worrying lack of understanding of how small firms actually operate, how thin their margins are, how sensitive they are to cumulative costs and how easily confidence can be shaken. We saw it with the previous national insurance hike and in the rushed recalibration over pubs, and we see it all over again in this Bill and the rush to pass it when the vital detail is still to be settled. We know that the revenue collected will almost halve in the second year of implementation, so there will be lots of new compliance costs and an uncertain future.

If the Government are confident that this measure will not materially damage SMEs, they should welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that through an independent review. If they are serious about growth, entrepreneurship and avoiding further damaging U-turns, they should look at the cumulative picture. Given the scale of pessimism now facing the small business community and the stakes for employment and growth, I urge the Government to accept this amendment. SMEs do not trust the Government to act in their interests. If the Treasury were to adopt such an amendment—as well as the associated one for Northern Ireland, where there are so many SMEs—perhaps this trust might start to be rebuilt. I beg to move.

Baroness Altmann Portrait Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I have added my name to all of the amendments in this group. Again, I think that they are very important. I am pleased to have added my support for my noble friends Lady Neville-Rolfe, Lord Altrincham and Lady Kramer—if I may call her my noble friend—as well as for the noble Lords, Lord de Clifford and Lord Londesborough. All of them are picking up on the huge risks that are being posed in terms of additional administrative costs, burdens and complexity for small and medium-sized businesses, charities and social enterprises, which, as my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe explained, have already had so many extra burdens placed on them.

I reiterate that I hope that the Minister will recognise that we need this analysis and this type of work before we make the primary legislation that we are considering here, rather than afterwards. I also hope that, if the Minister does not have ready answers, modelling or analysis that would address the issues these amendments are trying to understand in more detail, we can, as we have heard before in Committee, put some of this on hold until we have a better understanding of what the real-world impacts will be.

--- Later in debate ---
Baroness Kramer Portrait Baroness Kramer (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, as we discussed at Second Reading, the Federation of Small Businesses has warned that the impact of the Bill could meaningfully disadvantage small businesses. In a way, I look at social enterprises and charities as, essentially, a subset of the SME sector. Big businesses can often devise ways and perks to reward people that are simply not available to SMEs, so they can dampen the impact of the Bill on their workforces and widen that competitive gap.

As a consequence of that, I thank the noble Lord, Lord de Clifford, for signing Amendment 27 in my name, and the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, for saying that he would have signed it. Frankly, when these noble Lords give warnings on what will happen and what is happening in the small business sector, I really hope that the Government are listening because, unfortunately for our economy, their track record has a real history of being correct, and those warnings need to be taken seriously.

As other noble Lords have said, SMEs are already under pressure. I am not going to repeat the saga of the burdens on them, but we have to recognise that this is a time when we absolutely need small businesses to accelerate their hiring, especially of young people, and make serious investment in productivity and growth. Once again, this is another measure where I can see no alignment between the Bill and the Government’s industrial strategy or growth policy. It seems to pull in completely the wrong direction.

Amendments 12 and 24 would straightforwardly exempt SMEs. Amendment 27 in my name would give the Government a chance to make their case, in a sense, because it would require a detailed review within 12 months of the Act being signed, which is obviously long before the Act will come into force. The review would target the two issues that we have said are so critical—SME recruitment and retention—and would also look at this matter in the context of the cumulative impact, particularly of NICs changes since this is a NICs Bill. It seems wise to encompass a look at these two NICs changes as being linked and entangled in the way they impact on small businesses.

I do not want to take up much more of the Committee’s time, but it is important to stress that this is not the time for uninformed decision-making; that has been echoed through group after group of amendments. I am not rejecting the other amendments but Amendment 27 would be a relatively modest way for the Government at least to do something that begins to put evidence before Ministers and Parliament.

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. First, I will address Amendments 18 and 24 in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady Altmann, and the noble Lord, Lord Altrincham, which would exempt small and medium-sized enterprises, charities and social enterprises from the Bill.

The Government agree on the importance of supporting small businesses and ensuring that they are not unduly impacted by these changes. Small and medium-sized enterprises are far less likely to offer pension salary sacrifice than larger businesses. According to Nest Insight, around 33% of small businesses offer pension salary sacrifice to their employees, compared with 83% of large businesses. In addition, employees of small and medium-sized enterprises are far less likely to have contributions exceeding the £2,000 cap; only 10% of employees in SMEs have pension contributions through salary sacrifice exceeding the cap. Exempting small and medium-sized enterprises in the way suggested by the amendment would therefore introduce significant additional complexity into the tax system and would be disproportionate given the limited impact that this policy is expected to have on these businesses. The Government are engaging with employers and other industry stakeholders ahead of these changes coming in.

Similarly, Amendments 26 and 27 in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady Kramer, and the noble Lords, Lord Altrincham, Lord Londesborough and Lord de Clifford, would require a review of the impact of the Act on small and medium-sized enterprises. As I have already said, the Government agree about the importance of supporting small businesses. The changes in the Bill will mainly impact larger employers, which are much more likely to use salary sacrifice and to have employees who are contributing above the £2,000 cap.

More widely, the Government are delivering the most comprehensive package of support for small and medium-sized businesses in a generation through the small business strategy, unlocking billions of pounds in finance to support businesses to invest and removing unnecessary red tape. Ahead of the cap coming into operation, the Government will continue to work closely with employers, payroll administrators and other stakeholders to ensure that the changes are implemented in the least burdensome way for businesses of all sizes currently using salary sacrifice.

In the light of the points I have made, I respectfully ask noble Lords to withdraw or not press their amendments.

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, if the Government truly wish to support SMEs and charities, they should not press ahead with a measure that those enterprises have told us—I gave a great deal of evidence, and we have heard this from others as well—will damage them, increase their operating costs and complexity and reduce their ability to offer options to their employees. The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, put the case well.

The noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, with his unique experience of SME businesses, reminded us of the dire situation facing SMEs, with significant numbers closing down, as one can see on almost any high street. My noble friend Lord Ashcombe emphasised the cumulative effect and rightly added energy prices to the problems that SMEs and charities are facing. The Bill will raise employment costs at a time when companies are already stretched to boiling point.

The noble Lord, Lord de Clifford, illustrated the problem with information drawn from the impact of NICs on his business, which I found particularly compelling. He is very keen to have the hope—I think that is the right word—that will arise from the proposed review. My noble friend Lord Mackinlay reminded us of the large number of NEETs who are out of work, as well as of how we now have higher youth unemployment than the EU, generating what he referred to as a tipping point.

My noble friend rightly raised—I hope that the Minister will come back on this—the key unanswered question of whether the £2,000 cap will apply per employee across multiple employments. We must have an answer on that because it will make a great deal of difference, especially to smaller operations. I am impressed by the fact that, for the first time, my noble friend has agreed to support a carve-out for SMEs and charities, on which I have campaigned for the past 11 years.

The Minister and I have often exchanged views on SMEs, but this is an opportunity for him to make a concrete change to the Government’s policy on this matter, do something to show that the Government listen to SMEs and small social enterprises and provide them with a bit of relief from the mountain of complexities piled on them. I urge the Government to think again and make a positive change to the Bill in this area. It would not be expensive, but it would protect jobs and businesses, help our economy and, above all, reduce compliance costs for both this vital sector and the officials who are taxed with policing the changes and gathering revenue.

Lastly, I reiterate my support for the review of SME recruitment and retention proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, in the light of the cumulative NICs changes that we have seen over the past 18 months. Like her, I hope that the Government are listening. For now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, but we will, I think, want to revert to the position of SMEs and charities when we come back on Report later in the spring.

Amendment 12 withdrawn.
--- Later in debate ---
Lord de Clifford Portrait Lord de Clifford (CB)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I added my name to Amendment 29 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann. She has just summed up a lot of my issues, so I will keep this brief because it is late.

I will come from the perspective of one limited experience: my business. The success of auto-enrolment is fantastic, and the salary sacrifice scheme has really helped. I have 18 and 19 year-olds saving for a pension; it is only small amounts, but it really helps them. The other thing is that those who are slightly better paid find it so easy to increase their pension contributions and then pull them down again when they need their funds. I believe this Bill will be a disincentive to those people who are trying to save a bit more.

Therefore, I support this amendment, which seeks to check that we do not lose the advantages that auto-enrolment has brought to SMEs and has forced employers like me—I think back when we instigated ours—to bring in pension schemes. There is real value to that. The experience of the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, in pensions is a lot greater than mine, so I welcome a review, especially an independent one. It is so important that we start saving for our pensions. My noble friend Lord Londesborough came up with some statistics earlier and the report from his committee is important.

Those are the reasons why I support this amendment. It is essential that we continue to review how people save for their pensions.

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions to this debate.

I turn first to Amendment 28, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, which seeks the publication of illustrative projections of lifetime pension saving values before and after this change. The Government do not agree that this amendment is necessary to provide the required information on personal pension saving outcomes. The impacts of the measures in the Bill, including on employees and employers, are already set out in the tax information and impact note published alongside the Bill’s introduction.

Additionally, the Government published a policy costing note, which includes detail on the tax base and static costing as well as a summary of the behavioural responses expected by individuals and employers. The Office for Budget Responsibility has set out impacts in its economic and fiscal outlook, making it clear that it does not expect a material impact on savings behaviour as a result of the tax changes made in the Budget. Similarly, there are already a number of existing tools and services that individuals can use to understand their personal financial position and estimate their potential retirement income.

Amendments 29 and 30, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Altmann and Lady Neville-Rolfe, and the noble Lords, Lord Altrincham and Lord de Clifford, would require the Government to take advice examining the impact of this change on employers, pension adequacy and workers’ pay. They also seek to make commencement of the Act conditional on the publication of an independent review of its effects, including on pension adequacy. The impacts of this measure have already been set out across the range of usual publications for changes to national insurance; these include the published tax information and impact note and policy costings note, as well as the Office for Budget Responsibility’s economic and fiscal outlook.

These amendments raise a wider point about the role of salary sacrifice in the pension salary saving system, particularly in relation to incentivising saving and improving pension adequacy. It is important to place this measure in context. Salary sacrifice existed in the 2000s and early 2010s, yet, during this period, there were falls in private sector pension saving. The key factor that has led to an increase in saving in recent years, as many noble Lords have noted in this debate, is automatic enrolment. As a result of automatic enrolment, more than 22 million workers across the UK are now saving each month.

Although all of us here share a commitment to improving pension adequacy, many groups at higher risk of under-saving—including the self-employed, low earners and women—are not the most likely to benefit from salary sacrifice. Only one in five self-employed people save into a pension, but they are entirely excluded from salary sacrifice. Low earners are most likely not to be saving, but higher earners are more likely to be using salary sacrifice. Many women are under-saving for retirement, but many more men use pension salary sacrifice.

The pensions tax relief system remains hugely generous, and there remain significant incentives to save into a pension. The £70 billion of income tax and national insurance contribution relief that the Government currently provide on pensions each year will be entirely unaffected by these changes.

Given the points I have made, I respectfully ask noble Lords to withdraw or not press their amendments.

Baroness Kramer Portrait Baroness Kramer (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---
Moved by
31: Clause 3, page 4, line 5, leave out subsection (2) and insert—
“(2) The provisions of this Act, other than this section, may not come into force unless and until the conditions in subsections (2A) to (2C) are met.(2A) The Secretary of State must undertake an independent review of the impact of this Act on employers.(2B) The report must in particular consider—(a) the direct and indirect costs incurred by employers as a result of this Act,(b) the effect of the Act on employer pension contributions and the use of salary sacrifice arrangements,(c) the additional compliance costs necessitated by this Act, and(d) any consequential impacts on employment practices, workforce retention or remuneration structures.(2C) The Secretary of State must publish the report of the review and lay it before both Houses of Parliament.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment makes commencement of the Act conditional on the publication of an independent report on its impact on employers.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We will finish at 7.45 pm.

Lord Wilson of Sedgefield Portrait Lord Wilson of Sedgefield (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

There is agreement on my side that we will go on for a little while after that.

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Sorry—I was advised that there is no agreement beyond 7.45 pm.

Lord Wilson of Sedgefield Portrait Lord Wilson of Sedgefield (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It has been agreed with the clerks and everyone that we will go beyond that to 8 pm so that we can try to get it all finished.

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Well, I have been told that there is no agreement beyond 7.45 pm. I do not have a Whip in here.

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

What happens if we do not finish this group?

Lord Wilson of Sedgefield Portrait Lord Wilson of Sedgefield (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We will stick with 8 pm. If we start now, we will be able to finish it by then; if not, we will not.

--- Later in debate ---
Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, my amendment in this group seeks to make the commencement of this Act conditional upon the publication of an independent review of its impact on employers.

The Government’s decision to cap national insurance relief on salary sacrifice pension contributions at £2,000 per year has been presented as a measure targeted at higher earners, but the reality, as those of us who have spoken to businesses up and down the country know, is rather more complicated than that. This is not simply a matter of adjusting the tax affairs of a few well-paid executives. This measure hits employers directly and in ways that Ministers have not thus far adequately costed or explained. For small and medium-sized enterprises in particular, the costs are not trivial. Many have structured their entire remuneration and pensions offerings around salary sacrifice arrangements. They have done so because it is administratively straightforward, it benefits their staff, and it has had the backing of the previous Government as a sensible way to encourage workplace pension saving. Those businesses now face not only higher employer national insurance costs but also the compliance burden of unpicking arrangements that may have been in place for years.

Let us be plain about what this means for a small business. We are talking about firms with perhaps 20 or 30 staff, businesses that do not have large HR departments or in-house tax teams. They will need to review every employment contract, revisit their payroll systems and, in many cases, seek professional advice to understand their new obligations. What is particularly troubling is that we have not seen from the Government anything approaching a comprehensive assessment of these impacts. We know that HMRC consulted last year, but it got a dusty answer. The OBR has produced some high-level revenue estimates, which do not reassure us, and we know from the Treasury note that it expects this measure to raise several billion pounds by the end of the Parliament. But what we have not seen, and what employers and employees alike are entitled to expect, is a proper independent analysis of what this means in practice, especially for SMEs and middle-income employees.

There has been no serious attempt to model the indirect costs, the effect on employer pension contributions, the likelihood that firms will scale back their own contributions to compensate for higher tax costs, or the impact on workforce retention where salary sacrifice has been used as a recruitment and benefits tool. The OBR itself has acknowledged significant uncertainty in its projections, noting that revenue yields are highly sensitive to behavioural change—a very important point—and yet the Government press ahead without the evidence base one would expect for a measure of this scale.

My concern—which is shared by a range of voices in the pensions industry and in business groups and among those who have looked carefully at the measure— is that, in restricting salary sacrifice without proper analysis, the Government risk undermining the very pension-saving behaviours they claim in other contexts to support. As the ABI has put it, savers and the pension system need stability. What we should not be doing is swapping pension stability for short-term revenue raisers.

The Minister has cited a number of statistics on the numbers whom HMT anticipates will be affected, but these fail to recognise that the Government have almost no idea of how employers and, therefore, employees would respond and be affected by those changes. As I have already mentioned, the OBR has said that there is a high level of uncertainty over the size of the behavioural response. If an employer stops offering a salary sacrifice because of the compliance costs and complexity, as many of them have warned they will, then every one of their employees will be affected. So how can the Minister say that 74% of basic rate taxpayers will be left unaffected when HMT has no idea how the organisations employing them will react to the Bill? Indeed, the detail is still unclear. The point many noble Lords have raised stands: the Bill brings a great deal of uncertainty, and the Treasury does not understand the wider effects of what it is proposing—thus my wish to delay commencement until we have a clearer view.

I welcome Amendment 32 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, which references the OBR’s supplementary forecasts. I do not want to steal her thunder, but the issues this forecast raises are numerous. Of particular concern are the behavioural changes that it anticipates. The OBR estimates that behaviour reduces the 2030-31 yield by around 48% compared with the static figure. Employers are assumed to redirect pay growth into employer contributions, employees are assumed to shift into relief at source or net pay arrangements, and there are additional pass-through effects into wages and profits. In other words, nearly half the static yield depends on assumptions about how employers and employees respond. The options open to employees and employers are numerous, and they have three years to think about it.

Another serious concern highlighted is that HMRC does not hold comprehensive data on salary sacrifice usage. As we understand it, the modelling used by the OBR relies heavily on ASHE survey data and historic APSS 107 returns to estimate bonus sacrifice behaviour. The OBR therefore assigns this measure a medium-high uncertainty rating with particular uncertainty around behavioural responses and the size of the bonus sacrifice base. This policy is uncertain. How will it affect savings, how will it affect behaviour and, significantly, how much will it raise and for how long?

I know others may have questions for the Minister, but the new arrangements come into operation in 2029-30 and, as we have all been saying, there is time for more questions to be asked and answered and for more work to be done. I hope the Minister will look at these various amendments positively. I thank the Deputy Chairman for his clarification on timing, and I beg to move.

Baroness Kramer Portrait Baroness Kramer (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, has relieved me of the burden of trying to explain the primary clause within my amendment, which would require a formal review and report on the OBR supplementary forecast information release. As she said, this came out on 5 February, I understand in response to an FoI request, which, frankly, is no way to provide information to Parliament. As she said, it concludes that behavioural response to the measure—and that is key to the impact that this Bill will have—is highly uncertain. The further detail that she provided is so similar to what I would have provided that I am not going to repeat it. I thank the noble Lord, Lord de Clifford, for also signing this.

The other part of the review would cover the operational remuneration arrangements and the impact on pension adequacy and salaries. I know the Minister thought he covered this issue, but I think he could tell that in the Room uncertainty continues. Further clarification is needed around this issue because employers are going to be looking for that. This is an opportunity to provide it.

I have to say that I do not think I have ever seen an OBR report that is so filled with the word “uncertainty”. Obviously, it stands behind what it has written, but it does not feel like a report that has been written with a great deal of confidence. That confidence needs to be in place for Parliament to act on legislation.

Lord Londesborough Portrait Lord Londesborough (CB)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will very briefly add one question about the OBR forecast. I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said at Second Reading that she found the timing “weird”. I certainly find it extraordinary that we have a five-year forecast of which the first three years are irrelevant—they are zero—and then we have a 48% fall in the second year. This begs the question: where are the forecasts for years three, four and five? If we are following this trend, we have a fireworks display. As the noble Lord, Lord Altrinchan, said, the Government should not be indulging in short-term fiscal levers. Where are the forecasts for those years? These measures do not actually come into effect until the financial year 2030.

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I will first address Amendment 31, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady Altmann, and the noble Lord, Lord Altrincham. I agree on the importance of transparency on the impact of this policy, including on employers. However, an additional publication is not necessary to achieve that objective. A number of documents have already been published in line with the usual practice for national insurance contribution changes, which comprehensively set out the impacts of this measure, including on employers.

The tax information and impact note was published alongside the introduction of the Bill. This sets out the number of employers expected to be impacted by this measure, the one-off costs—including familiarisation with the change, the training of staff and updating of software—and the expected continuing costs, including performing more calculations, and recording and providing additional information to HMRC, where salary sacrifice schemes continue to be used. This equates to a one-off £75 and an ongoing £99 per business per year. The Government also published a policy costing note, which includes detail on the costing of the measures, including the tax base, static costing and a summary of the behavioural responses expected by individuals and employers.

The Office for Budget Responsibility published its economic and fiscal outlook, which provides the OBR’s independent scrutiny of the Government’s policy costing. The OBR also published a supplementary forecast note, which provided additional information that it received in last year’s Budget to further increase the transparency of this measure. Taken together, these publications already provide an appropriate and comprehensive assessment of employer impacts.

On Amendment 32, the OBR’s economic and fiscal outlook and its supplementary forecast—

Lord Ashcombe Portrait Lord Ashcombe (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Minister for giving way. He has mentioned up to five different publications where this information may be found. Is it not possible for the Government to bring it into one place, so that we can actually see what the information is?

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, as I have already said, it has been published in various places, and I do not see the need to bring that into one place, as the noble Lord asked.

On Amendment 32, the OBR’s economic and fiscal outlook and its supplementary forecast publications set out how behavioural responses have been considered in certifying the costing. Some of these behavioural assumptions were also published in the policy costing note accompanying the Budget. The supplementary forecast information was drawn from analysis and data supplied to the OBR by the Government ahead of Budget 2025, in line with the standard process by which the OBR scrutinises and certifies costings. The Government’s published costings therefore already reflect these behavioural effects, and the OBR has certified these costings in the usual way. Given that the material reference is already publicly available and has been fully reflected in the certified policy costings, it is not necessary to review the OBR’s supplementary forecast.

If the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, will forgive me, I will write to him with the answer to his specific question. In the meantime, given the points I have made, I respectfully ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate—a shorter debate than we probably needed—and I am particularly grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and the noble Lord, Lord de Clifford, for drawing out so clearly the scale of the uncertainty that we are facing here.

The Minister has referred to various costings and has described them as conventional, but the truth is that the tax impact notes that have been published are inadequate, as indeed were parallel information notes published last year when we were discussing the national insurance changes of £25 billion. As a result, the consequences we are now seeing in the economy were not, to my mind, adequately flagged up.

However, where a policy is acknowledged by the OBR to carry medium to high uncertainty, and where almost half of the projected yield depends on a behavioural response that is not known in advance, I think the data that we have is incomplete. It is therefore reasonable to pause and require an independent assessment, and we have time for that. The alternative is that the Government legislate blind and then ignore the impact of the measures they take, as they did last year. In this case, of course, it will be a long time before we know the impact, because the measures will come into play in 2029-30.

In matters of pension saving and employment costs, stability and predictability are essential. If the Government are confident in their policy, they should have nothing to fear from the independent scrutiny that we have proposed. But time is late; we have reached the witching hour, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 31 withdrawn.

National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Read Full debate

This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill 2024-26 passage through Parliament.

In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.

This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here

This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record

Moved by
1: Clause 1, page 1, line 10, after “tax” insert “at the higher or additional rate”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would exempt basic rate taxpayers in England, Wales and Scotland from the £2,000 cap.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am pleased to be opening our deliberations on Report by speaking to a powerful group of amendments tabled by not only the Opposition but noble Lords from across the Chamber. This group in many respects shows the scale and breadth of the concerns that are held by noble Lords with respect to this Bill.

My first amendments in this group seek to exempt basic rate taxpayers from this policy. I am grateful to noble Lords from across the House who supported Amendment 1 in Committee and who recognise the seriousness of the issue that it seeks to address. This Bill is a mistaken Bill. It will limit incentives to save into pensions and reduce pensions adequacy. In our lively Committee discussions, Peers with business and tax experience and knowledge of pensions and payroll exposed its failings. The responses from the noble Lord, Lord Livermore, did not allay our concerns. On the contrary, they reinforced them.

The Government have been clear in the Bill’s Explanatory Notes and in Statements made in this House and the other place that this policy is intended to target higher earners. That is the stated purpose and the political justification, but it is not the reality. The Society of Pension Professionals has told us that around one-quarter of those who use salary sacrifice and who will be caught by these changes are basic rate taxpayers. When this was put to the Minister, he did not dispute it. In fact, he went further. He told us that around 74% of basic rate taxpayers currently using salary sacrifice will be protected by the £2,000 cap. That is the current position and, as far as I know, does not allow for wage inflation in the period before the measure takes effect. That could increase the number of basic rate taxpayers who are affected.

The new arrangements take effect in 2029-30, conveniently helping the Government with £4.7 billion of revenue to satisfy their fiscal rules in that crucial year. However, the Minister’s exclamation means that 26% of basic rate taxpayers will not be protected. More than one in four basic rate taxpayers using salary sacrifice will be hit. The Minister also acknowledged that some people earning under £30,000 would be affected. Let us pause on that. This is a policy presented as targeting high earners, yet it will impact workers earning under £30,000. Surely that is, by the Treasury’s own admission, a fundamental contradiction between rhetoric and reality. For a basic rate taxpayer, the 8% national insurance charge represents two-fifths of the value of their income tax relief. In practical terms, the marginal cost of this policy is four times higher for a lower-paid worker than for someone on a higher income. That is a very different definition of a progressive tax. The lower your income, the greater the relative blow.

Our amendment offers the Government a straightforward way out. By exempting basic rate taxpayers from the cap, we would align the policy with its stated objective. If the aim is to target higher earners, let us do precisely that. Let us not drag lower and middle earners into a measure that they were repeatedly told would not affect them. Lower savings today mean lower retirement incomes tomorrow, and lower retirement incomes tomorrow mean greater reliance on the state. That is neither fiscally prudent nor socially responsible.

This is closely related to another of my amendments in the group, Amendment 7, which would require that regulations made under Clauses 1 and 2 should explain the basis on which the Treasury considers certain employed earners to be higher earners for the purposes of the national insurance charge and how the contribution limit reflects that assessment in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. This amendment, which we also tabled in Committee, received a wholly inadequate response. I asked the Minister who in the Government’s view were higher earners. I asked for a number. Was it people on £50,000 a year or £60,000 a year? The Minister refused to give one. Indeed, he did not engage with the point at all. Remember, some basic rate taxpayers will be affected by this policy. They are not higher earners. The Government should be honest about that.

Amendment 7 seeks to ensure that when regulations are forthcoming—and there are a lot of them provided for in the Bill as it stands—the Treasury will do the right thing and explain how the regulations meet the policy intent of affecting only higher earners. It would not impose costs on the Treasury or affect how the policy works but would ensure that we get an explanation of how lower and medium-income workers are to be protected. That is the Government’s stated aim. If the Minister is confident that regulations will meet the Government’s own test, he should accept this amendment.

The final one of my amendments to which I wish to speak, Amendment 29, concerns SMEs and charities. Throughout the passage of this Bill, and in debates far beyond it, many of us have warned about the cumulative burden this Government are placing on smaller employers. Think about the Employment Rights Act, the minimum wage hikes, the spiralling business rates, U-turns and uncertainty, compliance and regulatory costs and, indeed, the previous NICs hike. The list goes on. Each item is a policy that damages small and medium-sized enterprises in our country. They include family firms, start-ups, local manufacturers, high-street shops, care providers and charity and community employers. They often do not have in-house tax teams or compliance departments. They do not have margins that allow them quietly to absorb new fiscal shocks. Many do not offer salary sacrifice, but some do and more may do so now that it is more in the public consciousness thanks to this change.

My amendment simply says that, where the employers are a small or medium-sized enterprise, or a charity or a social enterprise, the provisions of this clause should not apply. If the Government’s intent is to truly address behaviours concentrated in large corporates then they should have no difficulty accepting that smaller employers ought to be shielded.

--- Later in debate ---
Lord Londesborough Portrait Lord Londesborough (CB)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I support broadly all the amendments in this group, but specifically Amendments 12 and 26 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, to which I added my name. I will be genuinely brief. These amendments, by raising the cap to £5,000 per annum, would address a core problem in the Bill: the limiting or deterring of the so-called moderate earners we have heard about from contributing sufficiently to their pension pots, which, as we already know, are nowhere near sufficient for the vast majority to fund their retirements. We are talking about retirement periods of 25 to 30 years if demographic trends continue. As we have heard, this includes many in the early stages of their working lives who need to get into the habit of contributing to pensions at the formative stages of their careers.

I remind the House of a stat that came out in Committee. On average, our current workforce will outlive their pension savings by eight to nine years, and this funding gap is widening year by year. Clause 1 is, in effect, raiding pensions to keep the Treasury within its fiscal rules in three years’ time. It is another crude example of kicking the can down the road, leaving another generation to sort out another widening deficit.

I was interested to hear the comments from the noble Lords, Lord Leigh and Lord Ashcombe. They raised some pertinent questions over the revenue-raising forecasts. I also fear that the Treasury has wildly underestimated the level of accelerated salary sacrifice over the next three years in the run-up to these measures. I have witnessed a number of business plans in companies that I am involved in; I should, of course, declare my interests as set out in the register.

To conclude, I fully endorse the excellent opening comments from the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, and the comments we just heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer. I encourage your Lordships to support their amendments should they decide to test the opinion of the House.

Lord Livermore Portrait The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Livermore) (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this first group of amendments. I turn first to Amendments 1 and 17 in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady Altmann, and the noble Lord, Lord Altrincham, which seek to exempt basic rate taxpayers from the Bill. As the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, noted, the vast majority—74%—of basic rate taxpayers using salary sacrifice will be unaffected by the changes in this Bill. Specifically, three-quarters of those earning up to £50,270 and using salary sacrifice will be entirely protected, and that rises to 95% when looking at those earning £30,000 or less who use this mechanism to save into their pensions. The minority of basic rate taxpayers with contributions above £2,000 will continue to benefit from employee national insurance relief worth £160 a year in addition to the full income tax relief they receive on their pension contributions. Half of those basic rate taxpayers contributing above £2,000 will face an additional national insurance contribution liability of less than £50 a year.

Exempting basic rate taxpayers would also be exceptionally difficult to operate in practice and would add considerable additional administrative burden on to employers. That is because, unlike income tax, national insurance does not operate on an annual aggregated basis, nor does it determine liability by reference to an individual’s final tax position. An individual cannot be confirmed as a basic rate taxpayer until their full income position is reconciled at the end of the tax year, taking account of potentially multiple employments and other sources of income. To apply a tax band-based exemption, employers would be required to undertake year-end reconciliations across employments and account for other sources of income as well that sit wholly outside the design of the national insurance contributions system. This would represent a fundamental departure from established payroll processes, imposing significant complexity, cost and risk on to employers and payroll providers.

Amendments 16 and 29, in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe, Lady Kramer and Lady Altmann, and the noble Lord, Lord Altrincham, seek exemptions for small and medium-sized enterprises, charities and social enterprises. Exempting small and medium-sized enterprises and charities in the way proposed by the amendment would add considerable complexity to the tax system and would not be proportionate to the limited impact this policy is expected to have on those businesses. The changes in this Bill primarily affect larger employers, which are significantly more likely to operate salary sacrifice arrangements and to have employees contributing above the £2,000 cap.

Small businesses are significantly less likely to offer salary sacrifice than larger businesses. Only 28% of employees in SMEs use salary sacrifice for pension contributions, compared to 39% in larger firms. When it comes to contributions above the £2,000 cap, the difference is even clearer. Only 10% of employees in SMEs make pension contributions through salary sacrifice that exceed the value of the cap, compared to 18% of employees of larger firms. This underlines that the largest benefits from uncapped salary sacrifice are concentrated in bigger firms, not smaller firms.

In practice, the changes in this Bill will level the playing field between small businesses and their larger competitors, ensuring that the national insurance contribution advantages of salary sacrifice are not disproportionately concentrated among employees in big firms. More widely, the Government recognise the importance of supporting small businesses and charities alike.

This leads me to Amendments 7 and 23 in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, and the noble Lord, Lord Altrincham. These amendments seek clarity on the basis on which the Government consider certain employed earners to be higher earners for the purposes of the national insurance charge and how the contributions limit reflects that assessment. The Explanatory Notes for this Bill set out clearly that the Government’s objective is to limit the national insurance contributions relief available to higher earners on employer pension contributions made through salary sacrifice, while protecting lower-earning pension savers. These changes are about fairness and consistency across the labour market.

Additionally, groups who are most likely to be undersaving for retirement, such as those on the national minimum wage and the UK’s 4.4 million self-employed workers are completely excluded from using salary sacrifice altogether. The cap we are introducing through this Bill will protect the majority of basic rate taxpayers using salary sacrifice and ensure that the cost of national insurance relief on pension salary sacrifice is put on a fiscally sustainable footing.

I now turn to Amendments 5 and 21 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Leigh of Hurley, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Altmann and Lady Kramer, which seek to exempt salary sacrifice pension contributions over the £2,000 limit from being included in the definition of earnings used to calculate student loan repayments for employees. Student loan repayments are calculated using the same earnings base as class 1 national insurance contributions. As a result, salary sacrifice currently reduces both national insurance contributions and the earnings used to calculate student loan repayments. Any change in student loan repayments arising from this measure is a mechanical consequence of restoring those earnings to the national insurance contributions base. It is not a change to student loan policy itself; rather, it flows from levelling the playing field between those who are able to use salary sacrifice arrangements to reduce their earnings for national insurance contributions and those who are not. Of those employees making pension contributions through salary sacrifice, younger people are far more likely to be protected by the £2,000 cap than those above the age of 30. Some 76% of those in their 20s—

Baroness Kramer Portrait Baroness Kramer (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Can I just get some clarification? The Minister is making me believe now that I must have misunderstood previous comments. Is he saying that he will not be, or there is not an anticipation he will be, bringing in legislation to remove that impact on student loan repayments? I had understood—and I could have been totally wrong, but I think others have understood as well—that that was what the Government intended.

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am afraid I do not know what led the noble Baroness to believe that. That is not in any way my intention at this point.

As I was saying, 76% of those in their 20s who use salary sacrifice are protected by the cap, compared to half of those aged 30 and above. The Government do not believe that this Bill is the appropriate vehicle through which to amend the basis of student loan repayments—

Baroness Altmann Portrait Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Can the noble Lord explain to the House why it is okay for those whose contributions are lower than £2,000 to get this special advantage of salary sacrifice, while those not lucky enough to have an employer with salary sacrifice should be denied it? The issue seems to be the salary sacrifice itself. The noble Lord is saying it is an anomaly, but the fact that people are getting it because their employer is using salary sacrifice and then you are taking it away does not make things fairer, as far as I can see.

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I think it does make the system fairer. We discussed this extensively at Second Reading and in Committee. The Government intend to make the system both fiscally sustainable and fairer, and I think that is exactly what we are doing with this legislation.

As I have said, the Government do not believe this Bill is the appropriate vehicle through which to amend the basis of student loan repayments. As the Prime Minister said last week, the Government inherited from the previous Government a broken student loan system, and we will look at ways to make that fairer.

I turn, finally, to Amendments 12, 13, 14, 15—

Lord Leigh of Hurley Portrait Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

With respect, that is exactly what the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, has asked. The Minister has said that he did not say that, but he has just read it out.

--- Later in debate ---
Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I was asked whether I was today saying we would do anything to this legislation; no, we will not. Will we look at how to make the system fairer? Yes, we will. I think those two things are perfectly consistent.

Lord Leigh of Hurley Portrait Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

With respect, at either Second Reading or in Committee—I think in Committee—there was a statement that there would not be in this legislation, but other legislation, changes to the definition of earnings for students to get around the problem in this Bill.

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That was not a commitment I gave. What I said in Committee, and say again today, is this is not the right Bill to change the student loan repayment system. We will, however, look at ways to make the system we inherited from the previous Government fairer. That remains the position.

I turn, finally, to Amendments 12, 13, 14, 15, 26, 27, and 28, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe, Lady Altmann, and Lady Kramer, and the noble Lords, Lord Altrincham, Lord Londesborough and Lord de Clifford. These amendments seek to increase the value of the cap or to uprate the cap by the percentage change in the consumer prices index or retail prices index. The purpose of the Bill is to cap an unchecked relief which predominantly benefits higher and additional rate taxpayers while protecting ordinary workers using salary sacrifice to make pension contributions. All employees using salary sacrifice will still benefit from national insurance contributions relief on £2,000 of contributions made via salary sacrifice. For a basic rate taxpayer, this is an additional £160 of relief relative to employees who do not use salary sacrifice.

The Government will keep the level of the cap under review, but we do not agree with the approach set out in these amendments, which seeks to uprate the cap in line with inflation. Automatic indexation of the cap would introduce a mechanism inconsistent with the treatment of other major pension tax reliefs, which are not routinely indexed. The Government’s view remains that the future level of the cap in the next decade and beyond is for Budgets in those decades. In light of the positions I have set out, I hope noble Lords may feel able not to press their amendments.

Lord de Clifford Portrait Lord de Clifford (CB)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Before the Minister sits down, my amendment would link the limit not to inflation but to the national insurance threshold. Therefore, if the Government wish to hold that threshold to raise more funds, they can. I just wanted to make that clear to your Lordships.

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the noble Lord. I think the position remains the same, though.

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who contributed to this debate. I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, to the fray and thank the Minister for his responses. He did not respond to the question raised by my noble friend Lord Ashcombe, the noble Lord, Lord de Clifford, the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and me about who high earners are and why those in the £40,000 to £50,000 band should pay 8% not 2%—four times higher. Indeed, why has the £2,000 limit been chosen in the first place?

On SMEs, on which I will also divide the House later, I think the lower incidence of the use of salary sacrifice actually makes the case for not imposing the complexities and administration of salary sacrifice on SMEs and charities. I will leave my noble friend Lord Leigh to wind up on student loans.

I am afraid that we on these Benches are unconvinced that the Government are meeting their policy objective of protecting workers on lower and medium incomes. As my noble friend Lord Leigh said, we are not sure that the Government are even going to raise the desired revenue. The Bill obviously hits those on lower and medium incomes and the protections are not in the Bill, which would ensure that the Government’s own policy objective is achieved. What is the hurry? I would like to test the opinion of the House on exempting basic rate taxpayers from the £2,000 cap.

13:02

Division 1

Amendment 1 agreed.

Ayes: 214


Conservative: 139
Liberal Democrat: 40
Crossbench: 19
Non-affiliated: 8
Democratic Unionist Party: 4
Ulster Unionist Party: 2
Green Party: 1
Labour: 1

Noes: 142


Labour: 132
Crossbench: 9
Non-affiliated: 1

--- Later in debate ---
Baroness Kramer Portrait Baroness Kramer (LD)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I will slightly anticipate the noble Baroness, Lady Rolfe, moving Amendments 9, 10, 24 and 25, which would require affirmative resolution for key elements of the Bill. Frankly, I do not think I have ever seen a Bill for which affirmative action was more required. In the other amendments, which have been brought forward so eloquently from across this House, we have some flavour of the extraordinary complexity.

I suspect that decision-makers at the top of the Government thought that this was something really simple, and that they were just going to put a cap on, with the rest being relatively easy to manage. However, the actual management of this is a complete nightmare. I cannot believe that a Bill that has been through the House of Commons already is on Report in the House of Lords, and yet we still do not know if the cap is going to apply to each employee or to each employment—which, to my mind, is two different Bills.

I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Leigh. I can see the nightmare of people wondering, “If I say this sentence, will I be caught by operational remuneration? Do I have to pretend, wink, or make sure I do not put anything down in an email?” We should not be putting people into situations where they have to try to work out how they handle this whole range of arrangements. The noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, knowing the creative industry so well, has thrown further complication into this. I very much suspect that the Government had absolutely no idea of the mare’s nest they were getting themselves involved with. I wish these issues had been teased out before this point.

The response brought forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, of at least having affirmative resolution gives us some possibility of trying to scrutinise what has happened. This is an extraordinary situation. We do not know the core character of this Bill, so we will be dependent on those working through the affirmative resolutions to decide how on earth they will deal with what will turn out to be the form that eventually comes before us.

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I begin by thanking noble Lords with amendments in this group—my noble friends Lord Fuller, Lord Mackinlay and Lord Leigh and the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann—for their proposals, and for their forensic questions on the detail of the schemes and on any guidance that the Government might issue to minimise errors and problems.

There are numerous shortcomings in the Bill around operational detail and how everything will apply in practice. The reality is that we have very little clarity on how the Bill will work. It is designed to apply to a very narrow and limited set of employment and remunerative circumstances, and anyone who falls outside that definition has to wait for regulations, which will not be subject to the affirmative procedure.

We have no clarity on how the policy will apply to people working in numerous jobs. Is the cap per employment or per person? If it is per person, it will be very difficult to administer. We also need to know where responsibility for enforcement lies. There is no clarity about people with fluctuating remuneration: will they be penalised for saving during higher income periods because they hit the cap in some years and have no income to pay into pensions in others? What about anyone who has an unconventional pattern of remuneration for their job or jobs? How will it work for them? We have heard already that the arrangements for student loans are unclear, even after recent discussion, and we heard from my noble friend Lord Mackinlay about GDPR and from the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, about the off-payroll rules. That is quite a lot of detail that has to be worked out.

My amendments in this group would help to deal with that by ensuring that all regulations would be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, aside from those designed to increase the cap—that would be positive if it goes up, and you would not need to have an affirmative resolution because it would be beneficial. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and my noble friend Lord Ashcombe for their understanding and their vocal support for having this extra scrutiny.

When the regulations are developed, they will apply the cap to thousands of people and businesses who will be drawn into complications for the first time. My proposals would not impose a cost on the Exchequer or undermine what the Government are trying to do; they would simply ensure that, when the Treasury comes up with an answer to the questions that have been raised today, we will get a meaningful chance to debate and scrutinise the answers, as we are doing with the Bill at the moment. The Government really should have put the detail in the Bill but, in the absence of that, my amendments would ensure that we retain as much oversight as possible as the detail comes through. I can think of no reason why the Minister would not adopt the affirmative resolution if he cares about oversight, due process and the scrutiny of a policy which will affects millions of people. There are 7.7 million people using salary sacrifice and Amendment 9 should be an obvious amendment to support.

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I will begin by addressing Amendments 6, 22, 36 and 39, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Mackinlay of Richborough, Lord Fuller, Lord Leigh of Hurley and Lord de Clifford, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Altmann and Lady Kramer, which seek clarity on the operation of the cap. I listened carefully to the requests made in Committee and again today to provide further reassurance to employers, payroll providers and individuals. Having put noble Lords’ concerns to officials in HMRC and the Treasury, I am pleased to confirm to your Lordships’ House that the cap will operate in line with other limits and thresholds within the national insurance regime. That is, the £2,000 cap will apply to each employment an individual undertakes.

To be clear, each employment will be treated separately for the purposes of the contributions limit for national insurance contributions. Any individual who has more than one employment and who sacrifices salary in more than one of those jobs will be able to do so independently in each case. Only 2% of those using salary sacrifice for their pensions have more than one job, and not everyone in this small group can or will use salary sacrifice in both their jobs. None the less, the approach I am confirming today provides clarity, aligns with the existing principles of the national insurance regime, and avoids the operational and administrative risks and burdens that could arise from attempting to operate a single cap across multiple employments. I confirm that this will be set out in legislation in subsequent regulations. The Government will also continue to engage with employers, payroll providers and other stakeholders to work through the detail of the policy ahead of its implementation.

I turn to Amendments 2 and 3 and the corresponding Northern Ireland Amendments 18 and 19 from the noble Lord, Lord Fuller, which each seek to introduce a carryover mechanism for any unused amounts of the cap allowance, including for those with fluctuating earnings.

Baroness Altmann Portrait Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Can the noble Lord clarify a connected point: if somebody changes jobs within the year, does that mean they will start a new £2,000 accrual of the exemption?

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes, I believe it will, because it is per job.

I will make three main points in response to the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Fuller. First, the changes proposed would impact only a minority of those in receipt of salary sacrifice. The vast majority of people using salary sacrifice undertake traditional employment on stable contracts: 85% have been in their job for over a year, 88% work full-time and 97% have a permanent contract.

Secondly, although the cap we are introducing will be based on each employment, the Government are committed to continuing to engage with stakeholders as we design the detailed operation of the cap and provide for it in secondary legislation. That engagement will enable us to test how different approaches affect those with uneven salary patterns and ensure that the policy is introduced in the least burdensome way.

Thirdly, on the point made in Amendments 2 and 18 on the pensions annual allowance, that allowance limits the amount of pension savings that can benefit from tax relief in any given year. It is set at £60,000 for the vast majority of individuals. The purpose of the allowance is to deal with exceptional or uneven patterns of pension saving, including one-off spikes or fluctuations in defined benefit accrual. It is specifically not designed to deal with day-to-day saving. The allowance also relies on individuals holding accurate records across multiple years in order to track eligibility and usage. That may be manageable in a pensions tax context, but it would be wholly unsuitable for a national insurance cap that must operate through real-time payroll systems. This also applies to other mechanisms proposed by these amendments that look to roll an allowance over multiple tax years.

For these reasons, the Government believe that introducing a carryover in this Bill would create significant complexity, and consequently administrative burdens, for individuals, employers and payroll providers.

I turn now to Amendments 4 and 20, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Leigh of Hurley, and noble Baroness, Lady Altmann. I begin by setting out clearly that these provisions operate squarely within the existing framework of the optional remuneration arrangements, or OpRA rules, introduced in 2017. The Bill relies on that existing statutory concept rather than creating a new or expanded test. As a result, its reach is already constrained by well-understood boundaries that are routinely applied in both tax and national insurance contexts. Under that framework, the legislation is engaged only where remuneration is structured in a way that offers the employee a genuine alternative, typically between receiving cash earnings and receiving a pension contribution. It is that element of choice which brings an arrangement within scope. Where no such alternative is presented, for example, where pension contributions are made as a fixed and non-negotiable part of the remuneration package, those arrangements simply do not meet the statutory definition.

Lord Mackinlay of Richborough Portrait Lord Mackinlay of Richborough (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

This is an important point in many ways. The Minister will be aware that within an owner-managed director business, the director has absolute discretion about how he or she may take their overall package, whether that is dividends, usual PAYE employment or, quite normally, the company making a pension contribution. Would such a situation fall within these rules because the director is effectively the be-all and end-all making that option and discretion themselves? No other party is deciding whether thou shalt have this or that. Can the Minister give his early impressions about how that situation may be dealt with?

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It sounds to me, although I realise it is an odd phrase to use because you are negotiating with yourself, that that is established as a negotiated contract and, therefore, that is not an option that arises for you after that contract is negotiated. I think that in the example the noble Lord gives it would not be, but obviously that will be set out very clearly in guidance going forward.

The Government’s view is that the Bill already draws the appropriate and proportionate boundary. It addresses arrangements involving a choice between cash and pension provision, while leaving ordinary, non-optional employer pension contributions wholly outside scope.

Lord Leigh of Hurley Portrait Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the Minister clarify my question on collective bargaining? In view of his earlier comments, will he clarify the situation where a person moves company within a group, which is quite common? Is that a new employment for this purpose?

--- Later in debate ---
Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

If it is a new employment contract, it is a new employment. It is a new job. I think that should be fairly clear. On his point about collective bargaining, it is my understanding that it would be outside of scope. Again, that will be set out clearly in guidance.

Finally, I turn to Amendments 9, 10, 24, 25, 30 and 41 from the noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady Kramer, and the noble Lords, Lord Altrincham and Lord Fuller, which relate to parliamentary scrutiny and propose an impact report on the contributions limit.

The core policy is set out in primary legislation to provide certainty for employers, with detailed operational matters deliberately dealt with through regulations to allow time to engage with employers. The approach we have taken follows long-standing precedent in national insurance legislation and ensures that the design is workable, fair and consistent with the wider national insurance contributions framework.

Early and sustained engagement with industry is central to the Government’s approach. The regulations will set out the detailed operational framework, including matters such as administration, process and interaction with payroll systems. These are best informed by technical expertise from employers, payroll providers and software developers themselves. Building on that engagement, the Government will consult on the regulations ahead of implementation. This will allow stakeholders to scrutinise the detailed design, raise practical concerns and begin preparing well in advance. It is through this process of consultation, guidance and industry engagement that employers will gain the clarity they need on how the system will operate in practice.

I also remind the House that a tax information and impact note has already been published, setting out the expected impacts of the policy on individuals, employers and the Exchequer. As with other tax measures, the Government will continue to monitor the operation of the policy as it is implemented and informed by ongoing engagement with Parliament and external stakeholders. Additionally, I assure the House that the Government intend to lay the regulations in good time before they commence. This will both support employer readiness and ensure that Parliament has a proper opportunity to scrutinise the regulations before they take effect.

The Bill draws a clear and appropriate distinction in relation to what matters should be dealt with by way of affirmative and negative procedure. Where regulations reduce the generosity of the £2,000 cap and increase Class 1 national insurance liability, they are subject to the affirmative procedure, ensuring full parliamentary scrutiny where contributor liability is increased. By contrast, regulations that implement the policy framework, set out administrative and operational detail or increase the cap so that less national insurance is payable are subject to the negative procedure. This reflects long-standing practice in national insurance legislation, where secondary legislation under the negative procedure is used for the operation of reliefs and matters of administration.

I also remind noble Lords that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has scrutinised the Bill and raised no concerns about the proposed level of parliamentary scrutiny. Taken together, this approach provides robust parliamentary oversight where liabilities increase, while reflecting the well-established precedent for legislating for administration and reliefs through secondary legislation subject to negative resolution.

For these reasons, the Government do not believe that additional statutory requirements are necessary. In light of the positions I have set out, I hope that noble Lords will feel able not to press their amendments.

Lord Fuller Portrait Lord Fuller (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I have written plenty down, but I am not going to say very much of it. I thank the Minister for accepting most generously the principle that this Bill was not ready to be passed into law, and I accept the reassurances he has given so far concerning the amendments I laid. It was absolutely right that we challenge the principle: criminal penalties should not come through regulation; they need to be in the Bill. The complexity has been outlined and, in light of the other amendments before us, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 2.

--- Later in debate ---
13:55

Division 2

Amendment 5 agreed.

Ayes: 208


Conservative: 138
Liberal Democrat: 43
Crossbench: 18
Non-affiliated: 5
Ulster Unionist Party: 1
Democratic Unionist Party: 1
Labour: 1
Plaid Cymru: 1

Noes: 142


Labour: 136
Crossbench: 4
Non-affiliated: 2

--- Later in debate ---
Lord Altrincham Portrait Lord Altrincham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I thank the Minister for listening so carefully, as ever, and considering the comments made by our Benches. The amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, are well written and would ensure that, before regulations are made to implement the cap, the Government must publish the relevant information on how many basic rate taxpayers are affected. The policy rests on a concept of excess savings—or at least tax advantaged excess savings—and it may catch a whole range of taxpayers who have insufficient savings.

It is very useful for us to tease out the difference between these two outcomes. That is possible only if we have much more information on the distribution impacts of the policy, which the Government should be comfortable sharing with us. As we debate this, we have heard a range of observations on who is affected. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, gave a colourful description of it affecting people with enormous bonuses. That is one perspective. The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, reminds us that it goes against policy for very large numbers of people to have insufficient pension savings. In other areas of government policy, we are trying to rebalance that, so the policy is dissonant on pension savings. The Government should be open and happy to share this information with us.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, pointed out, the Government already have this information. That may well be sufficient evidence for us to appreciate that the incentives are rather marginal and that the gains could be rather small. Based on the numbers that we have had in the debate, the number of basic rate taxpayers who are supporting this policy would be quite small and the contribution would be extremely small to the tax take. It might be useful for us to reflect on whether it is worth destabilising pension savings for that purpose.

The noble Baroness has done a good job of setting out the rationale for her amendment. I do not want to intrude further on your Lordships’ House by repeating her arguments. These amendments are sensible and chime well with the amendments that we have tabled from these Benches, which would require the affirmative resolution procedure for most regulations. A debate on those questions will be greatly aided by the information that the noble Baroness has set out. We will be listening carefully to the Minister’s response.

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, Amendments 8 and 11, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Kramer and Lady Altmann, seek to make commencement of the Act conditional on publication of estimates relating to the distributional impacts of the policy.

The Government agree on the importance of transparency. However, we do not believe that additional publications are necessary to achieve that objective. A number of documents have already been published which set out the distributional impacts of this measure. The Government’s budget document sets out that 74% of basic rate taxpayers currently using salary sacrifice will be unaffected by this change. This means that 26% of basic rate taxpayers would pay more. Of those, half will face a modest annual additional NICs liability of less than £50. I have confirmed previously that 87% of pension contributions made via salary sacrifice above £2,000 are forecast to come from higher and additional rate taxpayers.

The tax information and impact note was published alongside the introduction of the Bill. This sets out that an estimated 7.7 million employees currently use salary sacrifice to make pension contributions. Of these, 3.3 million sacrifice more than £2,000 of salary or bonuses. This means that 44% of employees using salary sacrifice for pensions would be impacted by this measure, while 56%—around 4.3 million people—are protected by the £2,000 threshold.

The tax information impact note sets out the expected equality impact of the measure. It notes that employees with salary sacrifice contributions are estimated to be of typical working age. The 52% who are aged 31 to 50 are estimated to be overrepresented compared with the prevalence in the employee population in general, of 44%. It notes that men are estimated to be overrepresented in the population making salary sacrifice pension contributions compared with the prevalence in the UK adult population.

The tax information impact note sets out the number of employers expected to be impacted by this measure—290,000; the one-off costs, including familiarisation with the change, the training of staff and the updating of software; and expected continuing costs, including performing more calculations, and recording and providing additional information to HMRC where salary sacrifice schemes continue to be used. This equates to a one-off £75 and an ongoing £99 per business per year.

--- Later in debate ---
Moved by
9: Clause 1, page 2, line 19, leave out from “4(6A)” to end of line 21
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment and others in the name of Baroness Neville-Rolfe would make most regulations subject to the affirmative procedure, except those solely increasing the contributions limit. They ensure parliamentary scrutiny of the policy’s operation, particularly in relation to people with irregular earnings, multiple jobs or atypical remuneration patterns.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I beg leave to test the opinion of the House.

14:17

Division 3

Amendment 9 agreed.

Ayes: 198


Conservative: 130
Liberal Democrat: 42
Crossbench: 15
Non-affiliated: 6
Democratic Unionist Party: 2
Ulster Unionist Party: 1
Labour: 1
Plaid Cymru: 1

Noes: 139


Labour: 132
Crossbench: 4
Non-affiliated: 3

--- Later in debate ---
Moved by
10: Clause 1, page 2, line 21, at end insert—
“(b) after subsection (1), insert—“(1A) Subsection (1) does not apply to regulations under section 4(6A) which make provision only for increasing the amount of the contributions limit for a tax year.””Member's explanatory statement
This amendment and others in the name of Baroness Neville-Rolfe would make most regulations subject to the affirmative procedure, except those solely increasing the contributions limit. They ensure parliamentary scrutiny of the policy’s operation, particularly in relation to people with irregular earnings, multiple jobs or atypical remuneration patterns.
--- Later in debate ---
14:29

Division 4

Amendment 12 agreed.

Ayes: 194


Conservative: 125
Liberal Democrat: 42
Crossbench: 17
Non-affiliated: 7
Ulster Unionist Party: 1
Democratic Unionist Party: 1
Labour: 1

Noes: 140


Labour: 136
Crossbench: 2
Non-affiliated: 2

--- Later in debate ---
Moved by
16: Clause 1, page 2, line 27, at end insert—
“(5) The amendments made by this section do not apply where the employer—(a) is a small or medium-sized enterprise, or(b) is a charity or social enterprise which meets the conditions in subsection (6).(6) The conditions are that—(a) the employer meets the definition of a small or medium-sized enterprise in section 465 of the Companies Act 2006 (companies qualifying as medium-sized: general), and(b) the employment is carried out wholly or mainly for the purposes of that charity or social enterprise.(7) In this section—“charity” has the meaning given by section 1 of the Charities Act 2011; “social enterprise” means an undertaking which—(a) has as its primary purpose the achievement of social or environmental objectives, and(b) principally reinvests its profits for those purposes;“small or medium-sized enterprise” has the meaning given by section 465 of the Companies Act 2006.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment exempts small and medium-sized enterprises, and small and medium-sized charities and social enterprises, from the provisions of the Bill in Great Britain.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I wish to test the opinion of the House on this amendment relating to SMEs and charities.

14:40

Division 5

Amendment 16 agreed.

Ayes: 193


Conservative: 127
Liberal Democrat: 42
Crossbench: 15
Non-affiliated: 6
Ulster Unionist Party: 1
Democratic Unionist Party: 1
Labour: 1

Noes: 143


Labour: 139
Non-affiliated: 3
Crossbench: 1

--- Later in debate ---
Moved by
17: Clause 2, page 2, line 38, after “tax” insert “at the higher or additional rate”
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would exempt basic rate taxpayers in Northern Ireland from the £2,000 cap.
--- Later in debate ---
Moved by
24: Clause 2, page 3, line 31, leave out from “4(6A) to “shall” in line 32
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment and others in the name of Baroness Neville-Rolfe would make most regulations subject to the affirmative procedure, except those solely increasing the contributions limit. They ensure parliamentary scrutiny of the policy’s operation, particularly in relation to people with irregular earnings, multiple jobs or atypical remuneration patterns.
--- Later in debate ---
Moved by
29: Clause 2, page 3, line 41, at end insert—
“(5) The amendments made by this section do not apply where the employer— (a) is a small or medium-sized enterprise, or(b) is a charity or social enterprise which meets the conditions in subsection (6).(6) The conditions are that—(a) the employer meets the definition of a small or medium-sized enterprise in section 465 of the Companies Act 2006 (companies qualifying as medium-sized: general), and(b) the employment is carried out wholly or mainly for the purposes of that charity or social enterprise.(7) In this section—“charity” has the meaning given by section 1 of the Charities Act 2011;“social enterprise” means an undertaking which—(a) has as its primary purpose the achievement of social or environmental objectives, and(b) principally reinvests its profits for those purposes;“small or medium-sized enterprise” has the meaning given by section 465 of the Companies Act 2006.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment exempts small and medium-sized enterprises, and small and medium-sized charities and social enterprises, from the provisions of the Bill in Northern Ireland.
--- Later in debate ---
Moved by
31: After Clause 2, insert the following new Clause—
“Review of impact on small and medium-sized enterprises(1) The Secretary of State must, within 12 months of the passing of this Act, lay before Parliament an independent report assessing the impact of the provisions of this Act relating to employer National Insurance contributions on small and medium-sized enterprises, including social enterprises in Great Britain and Northern Ireland.(2) The report under subsection (1) must, in particular, assess the impact on—(a) administrative and compliance costs arising from changes to payroll, pension and benefits administration,(b) the complexity of operating salary sacrifice and workplace pension arrangements,(c) the operability of these changes for those in receipt of irregular remuneration, those with seasonal working patterns or those with multiple employments(d) employment costs, and(e) the ability of small and medium-sized enterprises to attract, retain and reward staff.(3) The report under subsection (1) must assess the impact of this Act in the context of the cumulative impact of changes to employer National Insurance contributions affecting small and medium-sized enterprises since July 2024.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment requires the Treasury to commission and lay before Parliament an independent review of the impact of the Act’s employer National Insurance provisions on small and medium-sized enterprises and social enterprises, including administrative complexity and employment costs, and in the context of the cumulative effect of recent changes to employer National Insurance contributions.
--- Later in debate ---
Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, Amendment 31 is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Altrincham. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, for putting their names to it. I will also speak to Amendment 33 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Sater, a charity professional in the best meaning of the word. She is very sorry not to be here today. Her amendment is in the same spirit as ours, and she is right that the impact on charities is very important and should be kept under review.

His Majesty’s Official Opposition will continue to be a voice for small and medium-sized enterprises. We have heard, time and time again, from small businesses about the weight of burden that this Government continue to pile upon them—tax after tax, regulation after regulation. The Minister did not even answer my question at Question Time this morning about whether he would consider options for exempting SMEs from the burden of regulation. This amendment presents such an opportunity for the Government and would demonstrate that they listen; to show that they take seriously the mountains of complexity heaped upon small businesses and small social enterprises; and to provide some measure of relief and some acknowledgement publicly that these cumulative pressures cannot be ignored indefinitely.

The Minister suggested in Committee that only some 10% of employees in small and medium-sized enterprises have pension contributions through salary sacrifice that exceed the proposed cap. That may well be the case today, but with public awareness, more SMEs may introduce it. We on these Benches would like to see that figure grow, as saving for a pension is one of the most desirable and cost-effective methods of saving, as I am always explaining to the next generation. Salary sacrifice is also one of the few tools available to a small employer competing against a large corporation for talent and productive workers.

An independent review over a year would allow us all to consider the impact of the changes on SMEs and charities. I beg to move.

Baroness Altmann Portrait Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 31, and I support Amendments 32 and 33. All these amendments seek to help the Government to recognise that there is a serious impact if this Bill goes through as currently proposed, particularly on employers in smaller and medium-sized companies. I believe that the Minister confirmed that some 99% of employers in auto-enrolment are SMEs. The costs of complying with pension auto-enrolment have already been significant. Some of those employers have been advised that it is a “no-brainer” for them to use salary sacrifice as a way of mitigating some of the extra costs involved in having to provide pensions for their staff who want to stay in them.

We have imposed these extra costs on employers already; some employers have been good enough to put in more than the auto-enrolment minimum. What this Bill would do is to pile extra costs on to them, because if they are using salary sacrifice, they will have to renegotiate employment contracts, change payroll software systems, change the information that they give to their workforce about their pension arrangements and answer lots of questions that are bound to arise as a result of any of the changes that are proposed.

It should therefore be incumbent on the Government—indeed, it is quite astonishing that this was not already done before we got the legislation—that there is a proper, independent review of the costs imposed on smaller and medium-sized employers as a direct result of this legislation. That should inform the way in which the legislation is implemented, so that we try to do whatever we can to avoid the kind of problems that we have seen, where there are implications for employment levels, salary levels and indeed for pension investment and provision as an unintended consequence of perhaps well-meaning legislation, or legislation designed to hit an entirely different target, that is potentially going to fall on both employers and their workforces. We have seen that the extra national insurance costs have had an impact on employment levels already. I ask the Minister again: what is the rush in getting this legislation on to the statute books before we know its implications and what it will mean in practice for the corporate sector? First, can the noble Lord explain the rush and, secondly, consider putting this on hold until the full implications are better understood?

--- Later in debate ---
Baroness Kramer Portrait Baroness Kramer (LD)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, Amendment 32 is in my name. I realise that Amendment 31 is a broader amendment, and I have no objection to it whatever. It was written in response to a particular issue identified by the Federation of Small Businesses, which is that small businesses that use salary sacrifice regard it as one of the perks they can offer, in a very competitive market, for particular skill sets. Churn is a major problem for small businesses, so to be able to keep people and keep them happy really matters. It is tough for a small business, particularly when it is looking for a person with highly desirable skills, to compete against big businesses, which can offer perks of many different kinds. They may not offer salary sacrifice to the same degree, but they can offer other kinds of perks and advantages.

I am very concerned about the competitive impact on small businesses. I strongly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, that this group is the foundation of our economy and its condition currently leaves us worried. At a time of a big push for growth, many of the unicorns will fall into a sector where they are in a battle for skills against large existing companies. My Amendment 32 would review within 12 months the impact very specifically on SME recruitment and retention. I hope the Government will pay serious attention to this area.

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, Amendments 31, 32 and 33, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady Kramer, would require a review of the legislation’s impact on small and medium-sized enterprises, charities and social enterprises. As set out earlier, the Government agree on the importance of transparency, and a number of documents have already been published which set out the impact of this measure. As I said on Amendments 16 and 29, the Government fully recognise the importance of supporting small businesses and charities alike. In practice, the changes in the Bill primarily affect larger employers, who are significantly more likely to operate salary sacrifice arrangements and to have employees contributing above the £2,000 cap.

Charities and their donors benefit from a wide range of reliefs and exemptions across multiple taxes, including VAT, inheritance tax, stamp duties and gift aid. Ahead of the cap taking effect, the Government will continue to work closely with employers, payroll providers and other stakeholders, including representatives of the charity sector, to ensure that changes are implemented in a clear and proportionate way for organisations of all sizes that operate salary sacrifice arrangements. In light of the position I have set out, I hope that the noble Baronesses will feel able not to press their amendments.

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate, which is an important one, and I am grateful to those who spoke in support. We heard from the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, about the positive implications for the creative sector, and of course my noble friend Lord Leigh, who is very much in touch with trade representative bodies and charities, supported the amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, raised again the question of data, which we were talking about at Question Time, and his concerns about the demise of SMEs under the burden of red tape.

Finally, I strongly support the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and the Federation of Small Businesses, which is such a useful source of information, on the need to be able to keep employees happy and to retain them. The same is true in charities and social enterprises, as I am sure my noble friend Lady Sater would say if she had been able to be with us today.

The case for a comprehensive and independent impact assessment of this legislation on small and medium-sized enterprises and social enterprises could not be clearer, nor, I am afraid to say, could the Government’s failure to undertake one. We have heard today of the depth and breadth of concern, and that is why we have voted and agreed on an exemption for SMEs and charities. But there is a risk that this will be rejected in the other place, in which case this review will be even more important.

Although some documents have been published, as the Minister said, the Office for Budget Responsibility’s own analysis points to significant uncertainty surrounding the effect of these measures. That uncertainty is not a reason for the Government to look away; it is precisely the reason that they must look more closely. When the OBR itself signals uncertainty, the duty falls on the Government to acknowledge what they do not yet know and to commit to finding it.

That brings me to an important matter which the Minister may want to comment on or follow up, perhaps in the next group. The Government announced last year a commitment to reduce the administrative burden on business by 25%. I remember welcoming that announcement. It was not a quiet aspiration buried in a footnote; it was a public commitment made with fanfare. Yet if the Government’s answer whenever we ask about the administrative impact of a specific policy is simply that such an impact cannot be measured, one must ask how precisely the Government intend to meet that target.

I fear there are only two conclusions. Either the Government have a means of measuring administrative impact, which they have chosen, curiously, not to deploy on this occasion, in which case they should do so, or the commitment to reduce the burden on business by a quarter was an empty promise from the outset.

But we have had a good debate today, and time is getting on. In the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 31 withdrawn.
--- Later in debate ---
Lord Altrincham Portrait Lord Altrincham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Minister for his usual courtesy in hosting the debate. The amendments in this group all underscore another substantial shortcoming in how the Bill has been approached: its effects and impacts have not been properly assessed in advance. I suspect that the Minister does not have the information on how the Bill will affect pensions saving adequacy, which I highlight in my Amendment 37, and how it will affect employer costs, pensions adequacy and workers’ take-home pay, which the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, raises in her amendment.

These are serious questions. As was noted in Committee, if the Treasury had done better work in preparation for the Bill, it would already be able to give us the answers to the questions that these amendments raise. These are the questions that businesses, employers, savers and industry are asking. As my noble friend Lord Ashcombe highlighted, the information must be in an easily accessible format in a single place, because it will be relevant to more than just policymakers and parliamentarians: businesses and employers will be trying to understand what all this means for them, as well as employees saving for their pensions, who will be trying to understand how they could be affected.

My amendment raises the question of pensions adequacy. People are not saving enough for their pensions and the Government are worsening incentives to do so with the Bill. The Minister should consent to a review of this matter before the Bill comes into force. The Government must make sure that they know the facts, so that we can ensure that they do not inflict unintended harms. As a point of good governance, the Minister should accept this and the other amendments in this group.

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for their contributions to this debate.

Amendments 35, 37 and 40, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady Altmann, and the noble Lord, Lord Altrincham, cover the impact of the future Act on pensions adequacy and on pension-saving behaviour and participation. As I have already set out, the Government agree on the importance of transparency, and a number of documents have already been published that set out the impacts of this measure.

I turn to the principled point raised about the impact of this policy on pensions adequacy and savings behaviour more specifically. As we discussed in Committee, salary sacrifice existed in the 2000s and early 2010s, yet there were falls in private sector pension saving during that period. The key factor that has led to an increase in saving in recent years is automatic enrolment. As a result of that, over 22 million workers across the UK are now saving each month.

Although we all share a commitment to improving pensions adequacy, many groups at highest risk of undersaving, including the self-employed, lower earners and women, are not the most likely to benefit from salary sacrifice. Only one in five self-employed people saves into a pension but they are entirely excluded from salary sacrifice. Low earners are most likely not to be saving, but higher earners are more likely to be using salary sacrifice. Many women are undersaving for retirement, but many more men use pensions salary sacrifice. The pensions tax relief system remains hugely generous and there remain significant incentives to save into a pension. The £70 billion of income tax and national insurance contribution relief that the Government currently provide on pensions each year will be entirely unaffected by these changes.

Amendment 38, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, would require the Government to lay before Parliament a formal review of the Office for Budget Responsibility’s supplementary forecast information release of 5 February 2026, and specifically its analysis of behavioural responses by organisations to the provisions in the Bill. The OBR’s economic and fiscal outlook and its supplementary forecast publication set out how behavioural responses have been considered in certifying the costings. A summary of these behavioural assumptions was also published in the policy costing note accompanying the Budget. The supplementary forecast information was drawn from analysis and data—

Baroness Altmann Portrait Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It would be helpful to have on record some idea of who is responsible, when talking about behavioural response, for reporting to HMRC and for compliance, and who will face penalties for any national insurance contributions that are due which were wrongly deducted. Is it payroll providers? Is it employers? Is it the members? If any of those groups are on the line for paying penalties, would not the limit itself perhaps put paid to salary sacrifice? Is that something that the Government have considered?

--- Later in debate ---
Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

All those points will be set out in regulations, and I am more than happy to confirm that to the noble Baroness in writing.

The OBR’s economic and fiscal outlook and its supplementary forecast publications set out how behavioural responses have been considered in certifying the costings, as some of these behavioural assumptions were also published in the policy costing that accompanied the Budget. The supplementary forecast information was drawn from analysis and data supplied to the OBR by the Government ahead of Budget 2025, in line with a standard process by which the OBR scrutinises and certifies costings. The Government’s published costings therefore already reflect these behavioural effects. The OBR has certified these costings in the usual way. Given that the material referenced is already publicly available and has been fully reflected in the certified policy costings, the Government do not believe that it is necessary to review the OBR’s supplementary forecast.

National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Read Full debate

This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill 2024-26 passage through Parliament.

In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.

This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here

This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record

Moved by
Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That the Bill do now pass.

Lord Livermore Portrait The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Livermore) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the cost of pension salary sacrifice was set to treble to £8 billion a year by the end of this decade. That increase has been driven mostly by high earners, with additional rate taxpayers tripling their salary sacrifice contributions since 2017. This includes individuals sacrificing their bonuses without paying any income tax and national insurance contributions on them. The status quo is neither fair nor fiscally sustainable. We simply cannot afford to allow the cost of pension salary sacrifice to balloon, benefiting predominantly higher earners.

The Bill therefore introduces a cap of £2,000 under which no employer or employee national insurance contributions will be charged on any pension contributions. It protects ordinary workers by using salary sacrifice and limits the impact on employers while ensuring that the system remains fiscally sustainable. The majority of those currently using salary sacrifice will be unaffected.

Saving into a pension, including via salary sacrifice, will also remain hugely tax-advantageous under these changes. The Government currently provide over £70 billion of income tax and national insurance contributions relief on pension contributions each year. That spend will be entirely unaffected by these changes. These are fair and balanced reforms. They protect lower and middle earners. They give employers many years to prepare. They preserve the incentives that underpin workplace pension saving and they ensure that the tax system is kept on a sustainable footing. I beg to move.

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, as we said at Second Reading, in Committee and again on Report, this is a poorly conceived Bill, because it prioritises the hope of short-term tax gain over the far more important task of sustaining a system that encourages and rewards responsible pension saving. Throughout the Bill’s passage, we have sought to examine it line by line to see what the Government’s policy will actually mean in practice, and what has become clear is deeply troubling.

This measure risks deterring pension savings. It will hit those on lower and middle incomes, including some earning under £30,000 a year. It will impose yet more compliance, payroll and administrative burdens on business, particularly on small businesses and charities that are already under considerable strain. It will particularly penalise those who are repaying student loans.

Against that background, I am proud of the scrutiny that the House has brought to the Bill. Your Lordships have approached it with care, expertise and determination to improve it where we can. As a result, with unusual speed, good order and good humour, the House agreed five amendments last week which seek to limit some of the Bill’s most damaging consequences.

First, our Conservative amendments ensure that basic rate taxpayers, those on the lowest incomes, are protected from the NICs charge. If the Government insist that this policy is directed at higher earners, not those on modest incomes trying to save for their retirement, this should be explicit in the Bill.

Secondly, we proposed an exemption for small and medium-sized enterprises and small charities. These organisations are the backbone of our economy and our communities, and they should not be burdened with yet more payroll, compliance and administrative costs as a result of this policy. We have all seen the impact on them of last year’s £25 billion hit.

Thirdly, we proposed that most of the regulations under the Bill should be subject to the affirmative procedure. Given the uncertainty that surrounds how these provisions will apply, it is only right that Parliament has the opportunity to scrutinise those regulations properly.

Fourthly, my noble friend Lord Leigh of Hurley successfully secured an amendment to limit the impact of the Bill on those repaying student loans, who would be hardest hit by the measure.

Finally, the amendment by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, raised the cap to £5,000, helping to mitigate some of the worst impacts of the Bill on those least able to bear them.

In recognition of the seriousness of the issues raised by the Bill and the progress made here, I shall take a moment to thank a number of noble Lords for the diligence with which they have scrutinised it. I am particularly grateful to my noble friends Lord Leigh of Hurley, Lord Fuller, Lord Ashcombe and Lord Mackinlay of Richborough, and the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann. They have worked tirelessly, both with me and my noble friend Lord Altrincham, and their amendments have prompted important debates. I am also grateful to our Whips’ Office team, especially my adviser Oliver Bramley, for their unstinting and effective support, and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, for the constructive way in which she has engaged with us during the course of the Bill. Hers has been a powerful voice in holding the Government to account.

More broadly, I thank other noble Lords across the House, including the noble Lords, Lord de Clifford, Lord Londesborough and Lord Freyberg, for their thoughtful contributions in scrutinising the legislation. Finally, it would be remiss of me not to thank the Minister for the way in which he has engaged with the House during the passage of the Bill. I am particularly grateful to him and his officials for their response to the letter I sent following Committee. It addressed a number of the questions raised during our debates and was both timely and informative.

I hope that, as the Bill proceeds, the Government will reflect carefully on the points raised and show a willingness to move on the issues that have united so many across this House.

Baroness Kramer Portrait Baroness Kramer (LD)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, this was a very short Bill but, frankly, I do not know how it got through the House of Commons and came to this House without clarity on the fundamental issue of whether we were talking about a cap that was per employee or per employment. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Livermore, for seeking the answers to that and making sure we were informed on Report. We were looking at two different Bills, not knowing which one we were working on, until we reached that point in the conversation, so I thank him.

I also join in saying that this was a collaborative effort, not in opposition to the Government but because we were of common mind across the Conservative Benches, my Benches and the Cross Benches—the noble Lords, Lord Londesborough, Lord de Clifford and Lord Freyberg, as the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, mentioned, all played a crucial role in this. I particularly congratulate my Benches on taking a vow of omertà not to speak on many occasions on the Bill so that we moved it rapidly through the House. I think the whole House was grateful that, on Thursday, when we finally came to vote, we were done in less than two hours rather than delaying everyone from departing on a Thursday. I thank my team very much for their discipline. I also thank Ulysse Abbate in our Whips’ office, who is new to this kind of work, but my goodness is he good at content and co-ordination.

This was a good example of people, having realised they are taking the same position, working together to make sure that it is effective. I very much hope that the Commons will appreciate the significance of the amendments passed to the Bill. Of all the Bills I have ever seen, this contains so many unintended consequences that, even if you believed in the fundamentals behind it, you would need to make substantial change for it to be in any way workable and not ending up targeting unintended groups, such as those on basic incomes. It would be devastating for people repaying student loans, which has to be fixed, and very difficult for SMEs. We chose different routes to try to make those changes and ended up with a very solid group of amendments. I thank the House for co-operating on this issue.

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady Kramer. I beg to move.

Bill passed and returned to the Commons with amendments.

National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Read Full debate
Consideration of Lords amendments
Monday 23rd March 2026

(3 days, 6 hours ago)

Commons Chamber
National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill 2024-26 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Notices of CCLA Amendments as at 23 March 2026 - (23 Mar 2026)

This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill 2024-26 passage through Parliament.

In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.

This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here

This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record

Torsten Bell Portrait The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Torsten Bell)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 1.

Judith Cummins Portrait Madam Deputy Speaker
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments 2 to 12, and Government motions to disagree.

Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I welcome the opportunity to consider the Lords amendments to the Bill. I thank Members of both Houses for their careful scrutiny of it, and I particularly thank the Financial Secretary, Lord Livermore, for leading the Bill so expertly through the other place. Before addressing the amendments directly and explaining the Government’s decision not to support them—I know that will be shocking—I turn briefly to the need for these reforms.

As the Chancellor set out at the Budget, we are taking action to make the tax system fairer and fit for the 21st century. That requires us to keep the effectiveness and value for money of the £500 billion of tax reliefs under review, and it is especially important to do so when costs are expected to increase significantly. The cost of national insurance contributions relief on salary sacrifice into pension schemes was due to almost treble, from £2.8 billion in 2017 to £8 billion by 2031, without reform, which would be equivalent to the cost of the Royal Air Force. This is not only an expensive tax relief, but one with a very uneven impact. The majority of employers do not offer salary sacrifice at all. The vast majority of salary sacrifice contributions are made by higher and additional-rate taxpayers. Salary sacrifice is unavailable entirely to those earning at or near the national living wage, or to the UK’s 4.4 million self-employed workers, and we know that both groups are more likely to be under-saving for retirement.

On this basis, the status quo is indefensible. Change was inevitable, but we have chosen to take a pragmatic approach, with no change until 2029, and a £2,000 cap to allow pension contributions via salary sacrifice to continue.

Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Minister for bringing this Bill forward. He brings a good story to the House, but sometimes these decisions give rise to questions. My constituents believe that the Bill creates a financial disincentive for middle-income earners to save for their retirement. Does he not agree that this risks creating a pensions gap, with individuals becoming more dependent on the state in later life, which will cost the taxpayer more in the long run than the tax relief costs today? My constituents feel that, and I am asking the Minister the question. How would he answer it?

Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Member always raises questions brought up by his constituents, which we know is a valuable part of the work he does in this place. The direct answer to his constituents is that all of them have a very strong tax incentive to save for their pension, without salary sacrifice. We spend £70 billion a year to provide that incentive, whether via the lump sum or the national insurance exemption for employer contributions. I hope the main thing he says to any of his constituents who come through the door is that they have a very strong incentive to save, whatever their circumstances. On the pension gap, that is why we have revived the Pensions Commission. Its work is ongoing, and I am sure he will read in detail its interim report, which will be coming out in the coming months.

Chris Vince Portrait Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I like to think I represent my constituents as well as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) does his, if anyone could. My constituents are really concerned about the pension gap, because the reality for many of them is that they do not earn enough money to begin to think about saving for a pension. Those are actually the things this Government should focus on, not tax reliefs for higher earners who can afford an additional small bit of tax. Personally, as a resident of Harlow, where a number of young people are in poverty, I will not have sleepless nights over this tax change.

Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As always, I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks. He was pretending that the competition is about who is the better MP, but we know it is really about the volume of speaking in this Chamber. The two of them are running it close, but never testing the patience of this House. It is amazing that you have allowed them both in this early in the debate, Madam Deputy Speaker, because that is what the closing minutes of every debate in this House should be about. It is important to have traditions, and they both deliver admirably, but I will make some progress before we get sidetracked entirely.

I was talking about the pragmatic approach we are taking to this change. As I have said, there will be no change until 2029, and the £2,000 cap means that salary sacrifice contributions can continue. That recognises the fact that that has become an established process in several companies and for individuals, so we are giving people time to adjust. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) raised that, and I have responded by saying that this is pragmatic because pension tax relief continues in its entirety. It is important to remember that relief is available to all savers, not just to the minority who have salary sacrifice available to them.

With that in mind—and I am sure that the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) for the Conservatives will have decided to support the Bill in its entirety having listened to those powerful arguments—I turn first to Lords amendments 1 and 7, which would exempt basic rate taxpayers from the operation of the Bill, and Lords amendments 5 and 11, which would increase the contributions limit to £5,000. The Government’s balanced and pragmatic approach, with the £2,000 cap, means that 74% of basic taxpayers using salary sacrifice will be entirely unaffected. The small proportion of basic rate taxpayers with contributions above the cap will still be getting the national insurance contributions relief on the first £2,000 of contributions made via salary sacrifice, in addition to the full income tax relief that is available to all employee pension contributions.

Exempting basic rate taxpayers in the manner proposed would be incredibly difficult to operate. An individual’s tax band is not knowable until the end of the tax year, which means employers would be required to carry out complicated calculations at the end of the year to reconcile the figures, and they would need to know their employees’ other sources of income, which I do not think anyone would believe is a good idea.

Ashley Fox Portrait Sir Ashley Fox (Bridgwater) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Lords amendments might not be perfect, but do they not set out the principled objection to the Government taxing some basic rate taxpayers more for choosing to save for their pension and at the same time using that money to increase welfare spending?

Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

No, that is not what is going on. What will happen is that everybody will still have a strong tax relief incentive to save for their pension, and by taking a sensible approach to reforming that, we will avoid seeing the cost of the tax relief rise to the same level as the cost of the RAF. I listen to Opposition Members day in, day out calling for more defence spending. There are consequences for that. One of them is that we have to do our job of looking carefully at the quality of our tax reliefs, and that is what we are doing today. Hon. Members should support us in doing that.

Ashley Fox Portrait Sir Ashley Fox
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Rather than raising taxes, could the Minister perhaps not send £36 billion to the Government of Mauritius to rent back an airbase that we already own?

Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That is a question the hon. Gentleman should put to his Front Benchers, who opened the negotiations with Mauritius in the first place. Opposition Members come to the House making cheap points, because they used to take seriously the job of government and they have given up entirely. I will make some progress now, having engaged with the hon. Member who obviously gave up on the job of serious government some time ago.

A world where 95% of those earning £30,000 or less and contributing via a salary sacrifice are unaffected makes the case for the £2,000 cap I have set out, but the Government agree with the sentiment raised in the Lords about keeping it under review. The Bill allows for that to take place in future.

That leads me to Lords amendments 2 and 8, which would exempt salary sacrifice pension contributions over the £2,000 cap from the calculation of student loan repayments. It is right that we focus on the outcomes for younger generations too often let down by the failures of the previous Government. I gently remind Conservative Members—there are only two of them here, but there are some Liberal Democrats who deserve some of the “credit” too—of their track record on this matter: trebling tuition fees, raising interest rates, scrapping maintenance grants and the rest. And that is before I get to not allowing anything to be built. That is what younger generations are being let down by.

On the specific proposal, it is worth noting that while salary sacrifice arrangements can reduce the student loan repayments made, they do not reduce the total amount due for repayment. Much more important is the fact that the £2,000 cap means that young graduates are broadly unaffected. In fact—these are new figures that were not available for the discussion in the Lords, but as this issue has been raised and brought to the Commons, I will provide them—the £2,000 cap means that 90% of graduates under the age of 30 repaying student loans who are saving into a pension will be unaffected, in the sense that 90% of them save less than £2,000 a year. I hope that provides some reassurance to Members who have raised that point.

Lords amendments 3, 4, 9 and 10 would make the regulation-making powers in the Bill subject to the affirmative procedure, except for those which solely increase the contributions limit. The Government agree on the importance of maintaining strong parliamentary scrutiny, particularly where changes could affect individuals’ national insurance liabilities. However, the Bill already contains a series of safeguards and the legislative approach taken follows long-standing precedence for national insurance legislation. In addition, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has carefully scrutinised the powers in the Bill, including the proposed level of parliamentary scrutiny, and concluded that there is nothing in the Bill that it wishes to draw to the special attention of the House.

Lords amendments 6 and 12 seek to exempt small and medium-sized enterprises, alongside smaller charities and social enterprises, from the Bill’s provisions. Again, the Government agree on the importance of supporting small businesses—I am sure that that is a matter of cross-party support—but small businesses are much less likely to use salary sacrifice than larger businesses. Furthermore, the £2,000 cap means that 90% of employees in SMEs making pension contributions through salary sacrifice will be entirely unaffected. Indeed, the largest benefits from uncapped salary sacrifice accrue to larger businesses, not smaller ones. In practice, the changes in the Bill will help to level the playing field between small businesses and their larger competitors. Those wanting to see support for small businesses should support the measures in the Bill. The Government are engaging with employers, payroll professionals and software developers to ensure that the changes are implemented in the least burdensome way possible for employers of all sizes.

I hope that right hon. and hon. Members will understand why it would not be right to support the amendments from the other place, even though we recognise the valuable objectives that have in many cases motivated them. As I said, the Government spend over £500 billion each year on various tax reliefs within the tax system. That is more than double the entire annual NHS budget. The size of the spend means that the Government must always keep the effectiveness and the value for money of those reliefs under review. These are necessary, pragmatic and fair reforms that protect ordinary workers while ensuring that public finances are kept on a sustainable footing. I respectfully propose that this House disagrees with the amendments.

--- Later in debate ---
Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier), and the Liberal Democrat spokesperson, the hon. Member for Witney (Charlie Maynard), for their contributions. I will not reiterate the arguments for the Bill as a whole, but I will try to respond directly to the points that they have made.

The hon. Member for Wyre Forest explained that the Conservatives are opposed entirely to these changes, but of course he did not explain at all which bits of the NHS services they would cut, since they obviously do not support the revenue being raised from this sensible—[Interruption.] Which bit of the benefits system would they like to change then?

Ashley Fox Portrait Sir Ashley Fox
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The two-child benefit cap. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”]

Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Here we have it again: when the Conservatives are faced with any difficult choice, the answer is higher child poverty. It is the answer to every question they are ever faced with. They stand up day in, day out and say that what they want to see is higher child poverty—and they cheered enthusiastically for it just then.

I will move on. Not only can the hon. Member for Wyre Forest not say which bit of the NHS he would like to cut because he opposes these changes, but he cannot even explain why the Conservatives were planning to implement exactly these kinds of changes when they were in government—before their whole giving up on being serious people thing.

Sammy Wilson Portrait Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the Minister accept that if these changes go through and people save less for their future, we will have pensioner poverty? That is the impact of these measures.

Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Absolute nonsense. Members of the House should be reminding everybody in this country that they have a strong incentive to save for their pension, not misleading them by implying that they will somehow lose out by saving for their pension. That is not the case, and it is really important that we are consistent in our messaging to the public about that. I will come back to the wider point about the levels of saving in society.

The hon. Member for Wyre Forest also asked questions about savings gaps, and he was right to do so. Unfortunately, however, he talked nonsense about that. He talked about the self-employed, low earners, women and those working for SMEs, all of whom do have lower pension savings rates, but all those groups who are under-saving are those least likely to use salary sacrifice. He talked about those on lower incomes, but as I said, 95% of those earning under £30,000 and contributing to a pension via salary sacrifice are completely unaffected. He claimed that the impact was largest on those on low earnings. That is nonsense, because 86% of contributions over £2,000 are from additional rate taxpayers. Those are the facts.

The hon. Member for Wyre Forest went on to invent a brilliant story of a young graduate struggling to get by who was somehow putting £5,000 into their pension every year. As I mentioned earlier, 90% of young graduates are saving £2,000 or less into their pensions. Why are they not saving more? Because their wages did not rise under the Conservative party. Why are they not saving more? Because that party did not build enough houses to help them get on to the property ladder. He asked—[Interruption.] I am glad to hear that all Conservative Members will stop opposing the building of homes in their constituencies in the years ahead.

The hon. Member asked about the implementation. As he mentioned, I have set out that it will operate on a per-job basis. He also asked about how it will operate over a pay period basis. As he knows, national insurance broadly operates on a pay period basis, but we are consulting with employers and payroll providers to ensure that we get that right. As is normal with national insurance legislation, we will set that out in the regulations.

I turn to the hon. Member for Witney (Charlie Maynard). It is not surprising that he, as a Liberal Democrat, opposes these measures but set out absolutely no ideas for how to pay for that. I look forward to him calling for more spending later this week—again with absolutely no idea how to pay for it. He raised timing. Directly to his two questions, we think it is pragmatic to give employers and individuals time to adjust—that is the basis for the pragmatic point that he raised. He also raised the scoring of that, which is a technical issue reflecting how the national accounts deal with the claiming back of tax relief for some pensions. He also mentioned the OBR. If he looks at its report, he will find that it set out that the Budget measures will have no material impact on savings levels.

To end on a point of wide cross-party consensus, both hon. Members raised the case that people do need to save more for their pensions—the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) just did so, too—and we all agree on that, and particularly those 45% of working-age adults who are currently saving nothing. As I said, that includes in particular groups such as low earners and the self-employed, for neither of whom is salary sacrifice available. The answer to that is the work of the pensions commission, which I hope will continue to operate on a cross-party basis. Its interim report will be coming forward soon, and I will commend its work to the House. For today, I am afraid that the Government will oppose the Lords amendments.

Question put, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 1.

--- Later in debate ---
19:50

Division 454

Question accordingly agreed to.

Ayes: 280

Noes: 161

Lords amendment 1 disagreed to.
--- Later in debate ---
20:04

Division 455

Question accordingly agreed to.

Ayes: 279

Noes: 167

Lords amendment 2 disagreed to.
--- Later in debate ---
20:15

Division 456

Question accordingly agreed to.

Ayes: 280

Noes: 164

Lords amendment 3 disagreed to.
--- Later in debate ---
20:29

Division 457

Question accordingly agreed to.

Ayes: 281

Noes: 167

Lords amendment 5 disagreed to.
--- Later in debate ---
20:43

Division 458

Question accordingly agreed to.

Ayes: 278

Noes: 164

Lords amendment 6 disagreed to.