Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Section 35 Power

Stephen Flynn Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the Government’s decision to use section 35 of the Scotland Act with regard to the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill.

Here we have it, eventually: the statement of reasons, which I am expected to read while also speaking. I have to admit that there is a real temptation for me to stand here and read every single word of it into the record right now. [Interruption.] They want me to! They probably should not goad me to; I will. On a more serious note—[Interruption.] Calm down. On a more serious note, I want to start with an apology to those people—and this should apply to everyone, irrespective of their views on the GRR—who have hopes and aspirations for the future and who have fought so hard for a piece of legislation for so long and now see their hope being taken away from them. It is being taken away from them by a Government whom they did not vote for and whom we have not voted for since 1955.

That goes to the heart of the issue, which is about democracy on these islands and what democracy looks like in the United Kingdom. In Scotland’s democratically elected Parliament in Holyrood, legislation has been passed that relates directly—directly—to a devolved competency. The GRR Bill is the most-consulted-on legislation in the history of the Scottish Parliament. It received support from not just the Scottish National party, but the Labour party in Scotland; Conservative party members in Scotland, including the predecessor of the hon. Member for Moray (Douglas Ross), as I understand it; the Liberal Democrats in Scotland; and the Greens in Scotland.

[Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Stephen Flynn]

I will give way in a moment.

In total, the Bill received support from nearly two thirds of Scotland’s democratically elected Parliament in Holyrood. It is an outrage that the United Kingdom Government are seeking to overturn the mandate and the legislation put down by our Scottish Parliament.

[Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP)]

I will give my hon. Friend a chance to look at the first page of the reasons for this appalling decision. My hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford) spoke earlier about the World Health Organisation and the other European and Commonwealth nations that already have such legislation, and how Scotland would be brought into line with them. The statement talks about

“removing a number of measures which the UK government regards as important safeguards”,

which are the very measures—[Interruption.] If hon. Members pipe down and listen, they might learn something. Those measures, which include the medicalisation of the process and breaches of human rights, such as a trans person having to present themselves to a panel to justify their existence, are the very things that we sought to remove because they so affected the rights of trans people.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Flynn]

I thank my hon. Friend for her worthwhile contribution, which I did not hear in its entirety because of the rabid gammon on the Conservative Benches. None the less, it was an incredibly important point that we should reflect on.

Some of the questions from Conservative Back Benchers to the Secretary of State during the statement were about re-running the debate that has already happened in Holyrood. Numerous Conservative Members suggested that they oppose the GRR Bill for different reasons, but those reasons have already been exhausted in Scotland’s democratically elected Parliament. If Conservative Members have issues with what the Scottish Parliament has put forward, perhaps they should jump on a train to Scotland, get themselves elected to the Scottish Parliament and try to change the legislation there, rather than using this place to overturn Scotland’s democratically elected Parliament.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

My hon. Friend rightly said that the GRR Bill passed with cross-party support in Holyrood, including from some Conservative MSPs. One of those was Jamie Greene, the Conservative party’s spokesperson for justice—given his role, he showed good courage in voting for it. Is it not the case that his leader, the hon. Member for Moray (Douglas Ross), has just sold him down the river?

[Stephen Flynn]

I entirely agree; perhaps the hon. Member for Moray would like to address that.

[Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman is talking about people who supported and opposed the Bill. Can he confirm that a Scottish Government Justice Minister resigned to oppose the Bill; a former Scottish Government SNP Cabinet Secretary voted against it; and in total, nine SNP MSPs felt that the legislation was deeply flawed and wrong, and voted against it?

[Stephen Flynn]

The hon. Member, although he sits in this Chamber, already sits in Holyrood as well. He will be familiar with the fact that the overwhelming majority of parliamentarians elected to Holyrood voted in favour of the legislation. I appreciate that he lost that debate in Holyrood, but he should not support this Government trying to overturn the decision. I would be interested to hear about the conversations that he has had with his elected colleagues in Holyrood about the decision.

[Douglas Ross]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way a second time. Of course, I did have conversations, because I was the only party leader in Scotland to make this a free vote and allow my party Members to come to a conclusion, as Jamie Greene did. Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP refused to do that, which is why she lost Government Ministers as a result.

[Stephen Flynn]

If we are going to talk about losing, the hon. Gentleman lost the debate in Scotland. I repeat once again that it is not democratic to try to overturn that legislation here in this place.

[Sir Bernard Jenkin]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Stephen Flynn]

I will not. I want to make a little progress.

It has been inferred by some Conservative Members that GRR is in some way in conflict with the Equality Act 2010. Indeed, I am sure that, in this tome before me, that is the case, yet there are also senior Members on those Benches who have been vocal about the fact that it does not interfere with or overturn the Equality Act in any way, shape or form, so which one is it?

[Mhairi Black (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (SNP)]

Does my hon. Friend agree with me in finding it ridiculous that Conservative Members keep claiming they want to protect women and children’s rights given the fact that, just last night, the Government undermined workers’ rights, they want to get rid of the Human Rights Act, they introduced the rape clause and they want to remove us from the European Court of Human Rights. Is it not the case that if we want to defend rights, we get them as far away from this lot as possible?

[Stephen Flynn]

Absolutely. My hon. Friend has made an incredibly important point about the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill. The UK Government are seeking to overturn and ignore Scotland’s democratically elected politicians not just in relation to the GRR, but, without making any grand assumptions, on the right to strike, because I can say with wholehearted confidence that an overwhelming majority of parliamentarians in Holyrood are opposed to that Bill, but they will be ignored on that too.

Tomorrow, a Bill will come before the House on the 4,000 pieces of EU legislation that the UK Government want to throw into the wind. It is Bill that puts our food standards at risk, that puts workers’ rights at risk and that puts overwhelming power in the hands of Tory Ministers—unelected in Scotland, of course—to do as they please. The Scottish Parliament has been clear once again that it opposes that, yet that too will be ignored: Scotland’s democracy ignored and ignored.

[Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful point about what is, at its core, an attack on the rights of Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament. His comments about attacks on the Scottish Parliament have been echoed by the Welsh Labour First Minister, Mark Drakeford, who has called the section 35 interference a “dangerous move”. Is there not a deafness, not only on the Government Benches but on the Labour Benches, about how dangerous such moves are for democracy across the nations of the UK?

[Stephen Flynn]

Absolutely. It appears that Mark Drakeford has more of a backbone than the vast majority of those in the parliamentary Labour party put together, and they could do well to learn from his views in that respect.

Democracy matters, and this UK Government are consistently seeking to ignore Scotland’s democracy. I mentioned the right to strike and the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill, but it is also true of Brexit as a whole in that 72% of Scots want to rejoin the European Union, yet the UK Government and indeed the Labour party have absolutely no interest in that position whatsoever.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

I know my hon. Friend has not had an opportunity to look at the statement of reasons, some 57 paragraphs of which have just been served up to us. I have had a chance to have a quick look at it, and maybe my hon. Friend should not bother doing so in any great degree detail because it is specious, hypothetical and poorly informed. One example is that, on equal pay, the Government seem to believe that a trans man would take advantage of the opportunity to be paid less. That is the type of rubbish included in this. What does he think of that?

[Stephen Flynn]

I have obviously not had the opportunity to look at it, but if that is the case it is a complete and utter embarrassment. It shows that, just as the Secretary of State was unprepared today on this matter, so too are his Government on the arguments they are putting forward. I am a little bit embarrassed for them in that regard.

[Hannah Bardell]

My hon. Friend is incredibly generous in giving way. Regarding what the Government are trying to take out of the legislation and that they have concerns with, point 4 is particularly worrying. It states:

“Taken together, these amendments remove any requirement for third party verification or evidence from the process.”

If I am not wrong, when I came out I did not have to seek verification from anybody to be a lesbian. I do not understand why we are treating trans people as if they are applying for some kind of arbitrary, inanimate thing. This is about their identity. It is about their lives and livelihoods, and we should treat them with the dignity and respect they deserve.

[Stephen Flynn]

You will be unsurprised to know, Mr Speaker, that I very much agree in that regard.

[Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Stephen Flynn]

No.

Let me return to the points I was making about democracy, on the right to strike, EU legislation, Brexit, but also, importantly, on Scotland’s right to choose. As we found towards the end of last year—if the Father of the House wishes to awaken from his slumber—[Interruption.] No, Mr Speaker, he does not appear to awaken from his slumber. It is very distracting to see that in front of you in a democratically elected Parliament.

If we are to reflect on democracy, last year Scotland was denied its right to choose by this UK Government. The Supreme Court was clear that we do not have power under the constitutional settlement to have a second independence referendum, irrespective of the views of the people of Scotland. Yet the only answer that the UK Government can give to any question in relation to that is, “No. You cannot have your say.” No matter which way we turn or what the issue of the day is, this UK Government are not interested in Scotland’s democracy. Let us look in closer detail at the Conservative party position on that.

[Angela Crawley (Lanark and Hamilton East) (SNP)]

Does the statement of reasons not clearly state that the Government do not have any legal basis on which to challenge this legislation? The simple fact is that the Secretary of State for Scotland has opened himself up to judicial review, because he will simply find that he has no modification of the Equality Act 2010, and that there are no examples—none—indicating that he has justifiable reasons for outlining a section 35 order.

[Stephen Flynn]

The Secretary of State has opened himself up to many things, ridicule among them, by his failure to see the blindingly obvious.

To revert to my previous point about the wider Conservative position, let us be clear and in no doubt whatsoever that the Conservatives are seeking to utilise this issue for a culture war—nothing more, nothing less. These are the dying embers of a failing Government who see the polls, who know they are on their way out, and who know their Members will lose their seats. In a last gasp attempt to create division, they are using some of the most vulnerable people in society to create a culture war.

[Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP)]

My hon. Friend is kind in giving way. He is absolutely right. The SNP was accused earlier of trying to use this issue as a vehicle to create a constitutional schism and conflict, but like all parties in Holyrood that voted the Bill through in the Scottish Parliament, the SNP had a mandate from the electorate in Scotland. Is my hon. Friend concerned, as I am, that the Conservative Government have no mandate from anybody for the action they are taking?

[Stephen Flynn]

I share my hon. Friend’s views. I am deeply concerned about that, and about the culture war that the Government are seeking to stoke.

Let us also reflect on what we have here. We have a Conservative Government, who have not been elected in Scotland since 1955. Perhaps most intriguing, we have a Secretary of State for Scotland who, in the coming months, will be walking out of this place. He will not be walking anywhere except along to the undemocratic House of Lords. Baron Jack, as he will come to be known, is trying to tell Scotland’s democratically elected parliamentarians what they can and cannot do, while at the same time knowing that he will end up in an unelected Chamber. Shame on him and shame on his Conservative colleagues.

[Sir Bernard Jenkin]

Why does the hon. Gentleman think that the gender recognition Bill has been such a protracted dispute in the Scottish Parliament and so divided the Scottish National party?

[Stephen Flynn]

I do not agree with the hon. Member on that. I think it is healthy in a democracy for discussion to be had within a Parliament, and that is exactly what has happened in Holyrood. It may have escaped his notice, but I will repeat that parliamentarians from each and every party in Holyrood voted in favour of the legislation. The question to him and his colleagues is: why are they seeking to overturn Scotland’s democratic view in this way? I am more than happy to invite him back in to answer that specific point. He is not interested.

[Douglas Ross]

rose—

[Stephen Flynn]

I have been generous in giving way so far.

Of course, this is not just about the Conservatives; it is about the Labour party, too. Should Labour Members rise from their seats and remove the splinters on this topic? Labour is the party that last year released a document by Gordon Brown that was meant to put devolution front and centre. Critics like me said, “We’ve all heard it before. It’s not going to happen,” and when Scotland’s Parliament is under attack from Westminster, where is the Labour party? It is nowhere to be found.

[Douglas Ross]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way; this is the final time that I will intervene on him. Do all his SNP MPs in the UK Parliament support the SNP’s Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill?

[Stephen Flynn]

I will tell the hon. Member what my colleagues support, and that is enabling the people of Scotland to make decisions over their future without interference from his Westminster Government.

We have heard it all before from the Conservatives in their culture war, and we know that, under the Leader of the Opposition, the Labour party is rowing back from its support for the LGBTQ+ community on this topic. It is deeply disappointing to hear that. When we go to the Scottish electorate again, we will have a Labour party that is against the biggest issue that dominates Scottish politics at the moment. It is also against Scotland having its view in respect of our membership of the European Union, and supports the UK Parliament overriding Holyrood. Shame on Labour, too.

[Drew Hendry]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way once again. Is not this political act of the Tory Government, grubbing around for one last dying ember of distraction and producing this vacuous document as an excuse, an example of desperation? Is it not also, as he has outlined, an example of desperation to get into power that the Labour party will not even take a position to support the devolution that it was supposed to champion in the first place?

[Stephen Flynn]

Absolutely. I am confident that the people of Scotland will be watching and listening to Labour’s position. I am more than happy to let the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) intervene if he so wishes. [Interruption.] No, he just wishes to chunter from a sedentary position.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

I am listening to the hon. Member’s argument, which appears to be about democracy. In some respects, I can see the power of it, but I am a bit confused. It seems to me that the SNP, with representatives from Scotland, voted for the Scotland Act 1998 and for the section 35 measures that are being used today. Furthermore, they can be used today in the UK Parliament because the Scottish people voted to remain in the UK in a referendum just in 2014.

[Stephen Flynn]

With all due respect, I think that the hon. Member is missing the point. Democratically elected Members in Scotland’s Parliament have voted for legislation in a devolved competency and the UK Government—her party—are seeking to block that legislation. That is simply not fair, and it is not democratic in any way, shape or form.

What comes next in the continual democratic deficit we experience in these here islands? It is incumbent on reasonable Unionists, of whom I think there are many—I do not see very many in front of me, but I think there are many in society—to come forward.

[Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP)]

In part 2 of this big flabby document, the heading states:

“Adverse effects of different GRC regimes across the UK”.

If there is no allowance for different GRC regimes, how come gender recognition is devolved in the first place?

[Stephen Flynn]

Indeed. A very powerful and eloquent point by my hon. Friend, as always.

The point of what comes next is incredibly important. Where do we go when Scotland’s Parliament, our views and our purpose is just being ignored by Westminster? What are we to do? How are people in Scotland to respond? When will reasonable Unionists stand up and say, “You know what? This isn’t on. If you believe in this Union of equals, then you put the Scottish Parliament first.” I do not see that and I do not hear that in Westminster, and this is the clearest example of that.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

My hon. Friend is making a really powerful speech and putting the democratic deficit front and centre for people. As well as the huge disappointment I am sure we all feel about what the UK Tory Government are doing, is he disappointed that the UK Labour party, it is reported, will not challenge this intervention, to the great disappointment of a number of its Scottish MSP colleagues? Those colleagues of Labour Members are deeply disappointed, and no wonder.

[Stephen Flynn]

Indeed. As we are looking for reasonable Unionists, they are clearly not found on the Labour Benches. If the shadow Secretary of State wants to clarify that that is not the case, then I am more than happy for him to do so, but I will be unsurprised if he does not.

[Sir Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I am very reluctant to be goaded by the SNP, but none the less here we are.

Just to be clear, I certainly wanted to make sure that there is a proper gender recognition plan across the whole United Kingdom, because I am sick and tired of people setting women’s rights against trans people’s rights. That is where I want to get to and I am looking for solutions to that problem, not anything else.

[Stephen Flynn]

I respect the sincerity with which the hon. Gentleman delivers his points in that regard and I see a lot of hon. Members nodding. Well, if that is the case, I am sure he will support us, because we have a solution in Scotland. That solution is the legislation put forward in the Scottish Parliament, which has received democratic support in the Scottish Parliament and which this UK Government are blocking. He should share my anger, and I hope the anger of his colleagues in the Scottish Parliament, on that particular point.

It is a rarity in this place—I am sure she will forgive me—that I agree with some of the comments made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine). We heard from her earlier about the difficulty this situation is causing her in respect of the Union. Hers is the sort of voice we need to hear at this moment in time—the voices of reasonable Unionists about where they seek to go. If this is a Union of equals, as it is portrayed, and if Scotland’s Parliament is to be the most powerful devolved legislature in the world, as we are often told it is, then why is the section 35 order being used?

[Drew Hendry]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way once again. He is talking about reasonable Unionists and said he could not see any on the Labour Benches. However, there are reasonable Unionists who have been on those Benches. Would he be interested in the words of Ged Killen, the former Labour MP, who said:

“The idea that one man, elected by 22,000 people, can overturn devolved legislation brought in by the Scottish Parliament and supported by the vast majority of our MSPs is outrageous and will surely not stand up in court.”

[Stephen Flynn]

Indeed, that is very much the case.

While I am on the point about reasonable Unionists, I want to reflect on the words of Donald Dewar in relation to the Scottish Parliament, because that is, after all, what we are talking about. He said:

“Walter Scott wrote that only a man with soul so dead could have no sense, no feel of his native land. For me, for any Scot, today is a proud moment; a new stage on a journey begun long ago and which has no end. This is a proud day for all of us. A Scottish Parliament. Not an end: a means to greater ends. And those too are part of our mace. Woven into its symbolic thistles are these four words: ‘Wisdom. Justice. Compassion. Integrity.’”

Wisdom, justice, compassion and integrity: each of those words is reflected in the legislation brought forward in the Scottish Parliament. That is why it received overwhelming support from Scottish parliamentarians; it is why Members from each and every party in the Scottish Parliament voted in favour of it; and it is why it is so important that we stand up for Scotland’s Parliament, stand up for Scotland’s democracy and ensure that the people of Scotland’s views are heard in this place.

I sincerely hope—I say this to him in all sincerity—that the Secretary of State will reflect on the damage that he seeks to do to his own Union in this regard. I hope that he makes a volte-face, shows that he does respect Scotland’s democracy and allows the legislation to pass as it should.