Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Section 35 Power

Alan Brown Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Flynn]

I thank my hon. Friend for her worthwhile contribution, which I did not hear in its entirety because of the rabid gammon on the Conservative Benches. None the less, it was an incredibly important point that we should reflect on.

Some of the questions from Conservative Back Benchers to the Secretary of State during the statement were about re-running the debate that has already happened in Holyrood. Numerous Conservative Members suggested that they oppose the GRR Bill for different reasons, but those reasons have already been exhausted in Scotland’s democratically elected Parliament. If Conservative Members have issues with what the Scottish Parliament has put forward, perhaps they should jump on a train to Scotland, get themselves elected to the Scottish Parliament and try to change the legislation there, rather than using this place to overturn Scotland’s democratically elected Parliament.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

My hon. Friend rightly said that the GRR Bill passed with cross-party support in Holyrood, including from some Conservative MSPs. One of those was Jamie Greene, the Conservative party’s spokesperson for justice—given his role, he showed good courage in voting for it. Is it not the case that his leader, the hon. Member for Moray (Douglas Ross), has just sold him down the river?

[Stephen Flynn]

I entirely agree; perhaps the hon. Member for Moray would like to address that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Murray]

That is a very helpful intervention, because paragraph 14, on the first category of adverse effects, talks about different regimes across the United Kingdom. That, to me, suggests that the Government do not want this to be devolved. There are other devolved issues, such as abortion, that would have cross-border implications. But I would also gently say in response to the hon. Lady that Donald Dewar designed section 35 for the very question that she has just asked—[Interruption.] I hope she will not mind me repeating that he did not envisage all the issues that would come through. Devolution was always a journey for the Labour party and it will continue to be so. The key point was that section 35 was put there to enable the Scottish Parliament to legislate in devolved areas that might have an impact on the rest of the UK, but that it was to be used only as a last resort when there might be a conflict. If the first adverse effect is that the Government do not want different circumstances for gender recognition certificates between Scotland and the rest of the UK, surely they are saying that this should not be devolved.

[Alan Brown]

I agree with a lot of the points the hon. Member is making on devolution. Obviously he has read what we should really be calling the “clutching-at-straws reasons,” rather than the statement of reasons. He mentioned judicial review. I am not a lawyer, but I am sure that, like me, he can read this and see how weak the UK Government’s arguments are. On that basis, and if he believes in the protection of devolution and that Scotland should be able to do things differently, does he not agree with us that the UK Government should drop this action now? The Labour party should be four-square behind the Scottish Parliament on this.

[Ian Murray]

The point that the hon. Gentleman forgets is that this is going to end up in the courts regardless, because the section 35 order has been brought forward. Anyone who prays against it will get a debate and a vote, but the vote is not going to be won. It has already been said that the Government have a majority of 80, and perhaps a working majority of 100 on this issue. This will therefore have to be settled in the courts. As much as I do not want this constitutional battle to be fought on the backs of trans people’s and women’s rights, it would be good if the courts did settle these issues because maybe we could then move on with substance and do what is right by trans people and equality in this country.

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[Douglas Ross]

And I am—that is why I wanted that debate. That is why I am asking why we could not we have continued that debate into the new year. What was the big issue that caused the SNP and the Greens to force the Bill through by the end of the year?

I have a couple more points to make on the process in the Scottish Parliament. The leader of the SNP refused to even acknowledge that, while there are Members of all parties who supported the Bill, there were a significant number of SNP opponents to it. SNP Ministers resigned in Scotland as a result of this legislation.

[Alan Brown]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Douglas Ross]

I will give way in a moment. I gave my MSPs a free vote, and I think it was right that they were given that opportunity. In fairness, one of our former colleagues in this place, Michelle Thomson, who is now an SNP MSP, spoke about the “dark arts” of the Whips within her party who were trying to stop debate—[Interruption.] No, no; this was Michelle Thomson, who used to be an SNP MP. She was speaking about the dark arts of her Whips in this debate, so I am interested to know about the SNP MPs who oppose this legislation. I am not sure whether any of them are in the Chamber today, but I am sure the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) will tell me that there are SNP MPs who oppose his Government’s Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill.

[Alan Brown]

I do not beg to speak for the rest of my colleagues. It is a matter of record that some SNP MSPs voted against the GRR—that happened—but the point of democracy is that it was the will of the Scottish Parliament as a whole, and the hon. Gentleman and his Government are trying to thwart it.

[Douglas Ross]

No, we are not, and I will explain that in a moment.

The hon. Member for Aberdeen South, who leads the SNP here, spoke about the Government taking a view on the Equality Act. I can only assume that he is unaware of the letter from the Equality and Human Rights Commission to Shona Robison, the SNP Minister who led on the Bill, dated 21 September of last year—long before the Bill came back to the Scottish Parliament. It said that there were potential cross-border implications. Indeed, the commission said:

“In our view, there are implications for the operation of the Equality Act 2010”.

It is not the Conservatives or the UK Government saying that, but the Equality and Human Rights Commission. It made that very clear to the Scottish Government and to the SNP.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

First and foremost, this is an attack on devolution. It is an attack on elected Members of the Scottish Parliament, and it is an attack made by the Scottish Secretary, who has never respected the institution of the Scottish Parliament in the first place. He has always thought that Westminster is more important, and that it has primacy over the Scottish Parliament. This is the same Scottish Secretary who tells us that we have the most powerful devolved Parliament in the world, when we do not even have the most powerful devolved Parliament in the UK. The Northern Ireland settlement gave much greater powers in relation to pensions and rights over the Union, to name but two areas.

When we listen to the arguments in the Chamber today, we hear the right-wing Tories standing up and pretending to speak for women’s rights. Right-wing Tories are part of a culture war. Right-wing Tories have the cheek to say that we have manufactured a constitutional debate. How can we have manufactured a constitutional debate when two thirds of those elected to the Scottish Parliament voted for gender recognition reform?

[Charlotte Nichols]

rose—

[Alan Brown]

I cannot give way; we do not have enough time.

This is absolutely grievance politics and a culture war from the Tories. And then we get the “clutching at straws” statement of reasons. Somebody tried to say that this was legal advice, but it is not. Everybody knows that if you pay a lawyer, you can get them to write what you want. That is what this is: a list of bogus reasons for the Scottish Secretary to introduce this section 35 order.

Let us look at the equal pay section, which is unbelievable. It says that transgender people are going to cause problems with equal pay because if somebody transitions and becomes a transgender woman, they might have been on higher pay before and that could affect claims. It also says that someone transitioning could affect somebody else’s equal pay claim because they cannot use that person as a benchmark. Talking about manufactured grievances, you could not make that up. That must happen just now with people who have already got a GRC, so if it does not undermine equal pay settlements just now, how can the GRR undermine equal pay settlements?

The bottom line is this: you know you are on the right side of an argument when the opposite side is that lot over there on the Government Benches. They are comparing trans people to predators, and that is an utter disgrace. You also know you are on the right side of the argument when Amnesty International, Close the Gap, Engender, the Human Rights Consortium, JustRight Scotland, NUS Scotland, One Parent Families Scotland, Rape Crisis Scotland, the Scottish Trades Union Congress, the Scottish Refugee Council, Scottish Women’s Aid, the Scottish Women’s Convention, the Scottish Women’s Rights Centre, the Young Women’s Movement and Zero Tolerance are on the same side as us.

Question put.