Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Section 35 Power

Douglas Ross Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Flynn]

I entirely agree; perhaps the hon. Member for Moray would like to address that.

[Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman is talking about people who supported and opposed the Bill. Can he confirm that a Scottish Government Justice Minister resigned to oppose the Bill; a former Scottish Government SNP Cabinet Secretary voted against it; and in total, nine SNP MSPs felt that the legislation was deeply flawed and wrong, and voted against it?

[Stephen Flynn]

The hon. Member, although he sits in this Chamber, already sits in Holyrood as well. He will be familiar with the fact that the overwhelming majority of parliamentarians elected to Holyrood voted in favour of the legislation. I appreciate that he lost that debate in Holyrood, but he should not support this Government trying to overturn the decision. I would be interested to hear about the conversations that he has had with his elected colleagues in Holyrood about the decision.

[Douglas Ross]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way a second time. Of course, I did have conversations, because I was the only party leader in Scotland to make this a free vote and allow my party Members to come to a conclusion, as Jamie Greene did. Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP refused to do that, which is why she lost Government Ministers as a result.

[Stephen Flynn]

If we are going to talk about losing, the hon. Gentleman lost the debate in Scotland. I repeat once again that it is not democratic to try to overturn that legislation here in this place.

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[Stephen Flynn]

I do not agree with the hon. Member on that. I think it is healthy in a democracy for discussion to be had within a Parliament, and that is exactly what has happened in Holyrood. It may have escaped his notice, but I will repeat that parliamentarians from each and every party in Holyrood voted in favour of the legislation. The question to him and his colleagues is: why are they seeking to overturn Scotland’s democratic view in this way? I am more than happy to invite him back in to answer that specific point. He is not interested.

[Douglas Ross]

rose—

[Stephen Flynn]

I have been generous in giving way so far.

Of course, this is not just about the Conservatives; it is about the Labour party, too. Should Labour Members rise from their seats and remove the splinters on this topic? Labour is the party that last year released a document by Gordon Brown that was meant to put devolution front and centre. Critics like me said, “We’ve all heard it before. It’s not going to happen,” and when Scotland’s Parliament is under attack from Westminster, where is the Labour party? It is nowhere to be found.

[Douglas Ross]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way; this is the final time that I will intervene on him. Do all his SNP MPs in the UK Parliament support the SNP’s Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill?

[Stephen Flynn]

I will tell the hon. Member what my colleagues support, and that is enabling the people of Scotland to make decisions over their future without interference from his Westminster Government.

We have heard it all before from the Conservatives in their culture war, and we know that, under the Leader of the Opposition, the Labour party is rowing back from its support for the LGBTQ+ community on this topic. It is deeply disappointing to hear that. When we go to the Scottish electorate again, we will have a Labour party that is against the biggest issue that dominates Scottish politics at the moment. It is also against Scotland having its view in respect of our membership of the European Union, and supports the UK Parliament overriding Holyrood. Shame on Labour, too.

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[Ian Murray]

Let me make some progress. I wanted, because of accusations that have been made, just to go through a little of the Scottish Labour party’s response to the Bill in the Scottish Parliament. We had a multitude of concerns about the initial Bill. Nobody could have said that the Bill that was presented in draft to the Scottish Parliament was in any way fit to become final legislation, but we worked constructively with the legislation, with the UN rapporteur for women and girls, with the LGBTQ+ community and with women’s groups, which were raising concerns about the Bill. We tabled amendments. We got the Equality Act on to the face of the Bill, which is referred to in a lot of the adverse effects in the Government’s document. We made many other amendments to that Bill to help alleviate concerns, but, unfortunately, the only way we are going to settle these arguments now is through the courts.

[Douglas Ross]

I am grateful to the shadow Scottish Secretary of State for giving way. The leader of the UK Labour party said at the weekend that he had serious concerns about reducing the age from 18 to 16. However, when my Scottish Conservative colleague, Rachael Hamilton, moved an amendment to keep the age at 18 rather than reducing it to 16, Labour MSPs joined the SNP to vote the amendment down. What is the shadow Secretary of State’s position on the age limit in Scotland?

[Ian Murray]

We put in protections on the age limit in Scotland. We have the leader of the SNP at Westminster accusing the Scottish Labour party and the UK Labour party of different positions on this. There is nothing between the positions, but we should have devolution at the same time. The leader of the UK Labour party has made his position perfectly clear, and Anas Sarwar, the leader of the Scottish Labour party, and his team put in significant protections for 16 and 17-year-olds, including the notary public measure, which means that a person has to swear in front of a notary public for this to take effect and they have to get a responsible adult over the age of 18 to be able to do any of this under the age of 18.

Essentially, the hon. Gentleman is challenging people not to have different views on this, but two of his Front-Bench MSPs voted for the legislation. People are entitled to have slightly different views on what is an incredibly important subject. He has managed to do only one thing in the past week, which was not to get both Governments together to try to resolve this, but to write to me to ask my position on the Bill. I would rather that the two Governments came together. [Interruption.] We want the Bill passed and we want section 35 resolved; it is as simple and as straightforward as that. It has been our position for some time that we should modernise the GRA. That position has been eloquently expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda, and it is still the one that we hold.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) made the crucial point—and this goes back to an earlier intervention—that gender recognition certificates can already be issued under the Equality Act. As we sit here today, single-sex spaces are protected by exemptions under the Equality Act. The adverse reasons that the Government are giving us on that are not about the process of getting a GRC, but about the process that is currently already in place. The Government are all over the place on this, and it is little wonder that the only result is to fan the flames for people who wish to break up the United Kingdom.

--- Later in debate ---

[Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con)]

I speak in this debate as someone who is extremely privileged to serve in both this Parliament and the Scottish Parliament, so I am able to bring some points of view that were not accurately articulated by the leader of the SNP, the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Stephen Flynn). It is sad that he is leaving the Chamber—I think it is important, because I will refer to a number of points he made.

The hon. Gentleman spoke about legal advice. We had a situation in the Scottish Parliament where, the night before crucial amendments were debated, the Cabinet Secretary wrote to Conservative, Labour and SNP MSPs about their amendments and the legal advice surrounding them, but told them that that legal advice could not be shared. Yet here we have the UK Government sharing their statement of reasons with Parliament, and I think that is—[Interruption.] Well, it is based on legal advice. I am just showing the different approach by the two Governments. It is based on legal advice; that was clear from the Scottish Secretary.

It is also important to recall that, although the SNP leader in this place and others have correctly said that this debate has been raging in Scotland for over six years, I have not yet heard—I am willing to take interventions from any SNP Member who can explain it to me—why the Bill had to be passed by December of last year. What was the rush, in the lead-up to Christmas, that meant it had to go through the Scottish Parliament before the end of the year?

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am delighted to remind the hon. Gentleman that, as we have heard a few times today, the Bill is the opposite of rushed legislation. It has been in the works for six years, it has repeatedly been a manifesto commitment from a number of parties and it has been the most consulted-on legislation. He might reasonably ask why it took as long as it did.

[Douglas Ross]

The hon. Lady misses the point. Yes, there has been a debate for six years, so why then did the Bill have to go through stage 3, looking at amendments until midnight or 1.30 in the morning, to be rushed through before the end of the Session, when there was so much debate and controversy? Remember, there were 150 amendments; if that legislation had not been rushed, there would not have been a need to look at 150 amendments. I have yet to hear any SNP Member saying why the Bill had to be put through in December of last year.

[Amy Callaghan (East Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

Does the hon. Gentleman not recall that the debate in the Scottish Parliament went on until those hours and votes occurred at those hours because of his stalling?

[Douglas Ross]

I was not stalling. Indeed—[Interruption.] Well, I am sorry, but some people might say that the 12 or 15 points of order that we had earlier from SNP Members were stalling. I do not believe that; I believe they were politicians making a point in Parliament, just as, in the Scottish Parliament, we were looking at 150 amendments because the SNP had rushed this Bill through.

[Ian Blackford]

The hon. Gentleman brings up the 150 amendments, but that is the point: effective scrutiny took place. He and his colleagues and other parties tabled those amendments and they were looked at in the correct manner, and of course the Scottish Parliament had to take time to do that. We should be proud of that.

[Douglas Ross]

And I am—that is why I wanted that debate. That is why I am asking why we could not we have continued that debate into the new year. What was the big issue that caused the SNP and the Greens to force the Bill through by the end of the year?

I have a couple more points to make on the process in the Scottish Parliament. The leader of the SNP refused to even acknowledge that, while there are Members of all parties who supported the Bill, there were a significant number of SNP opponents to it. SNP Ministers resigned in Scotland as a result of this legislation.

[Alan Brown]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Douglas Ross]

I will give way in a moment. I gave my MSPs a free vote, and I think it was right that they were given that opportunity. In fairness, one of our former colleagues in this place, Michelle Thomson, who is now an SNP MSP, spoke about the “dark arts” of the Whips within her party who were trying to stop debate—[Interruption.] No, no; this was Michelle Thomson, who used to be an SNP MP. She was speaking about the dark arts of her Whips in this debate, so I am interested to know about the SNP MPs who oppose this legislation. I am not sure whether any of them are in the Chamber today, but I am sure the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) will tell me that there are SNP MPs who oppose his Government’s Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill.

[Alan Brown]

I do not beg to speak for the rest of my colleagues. It is a matter of record that some SNP MSPs voted against the GRR—that happened—but the point of democracy is that it was the will of the Scottish Parliament as a whole, and the hon. Gentleman and his Government are trying to thwart it.

[Douglas Ross]

No, we are not, and I will explain that in a moment.

The hon. Member for Aberdeen South, who leads the SNP here, spoke about the Government taking a view on the Equality Act. I can only assume that he is unaware of the letter from the Equality and Human Rights Commission to Shona Robison, the SNP Minister who led on the Bill, dated 21 September of last year—long before the Bill came back to the Scottish Parliament. It said that there were potential cross-border implications. Indeed, the commission said:

“In our view, there are implications for the operation of the Equality Act 2010”.

It is not the Conservatives or the UK Government saying that, but the Equality and Human Rights Commission. It made that very clear to the Scottish Government and to the SNP.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

rose—

[Douglas Ross]

I have two minutes left and a lot to get through, so I apologise to the hon. Lady for not giving way. I would have liked to hear from her, as a Liberal Democrat MP, because it seems that, both in Holyrood and here, the Liberal Democrats and Labour are supporting Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP on this.

I worry that the Scottish Government are treating the issue in the same way that they treated children and young people in passing the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (Incorporation) (Scotland) Bill. We were told then that it was absolutely essential legislation. The Scottish Government then legislated under the competencies of the UK Government, and the UK Government took the Scottish Government to court. That was controversial at the time. Nicola Sturgeon said it was an “absolute outrage”. Yet after the Supreme Court ruling on 6 October 2021, which said that the legislation was flawed, the legislation went back to the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament.

What has happened since 6 October 2021? Well, let me tell the House. On 1 February 2022, the Deputy First Minister of Scotland, John Swinney, wrote to the Secretary of State for Scotland and said that the Scottish Government were looking to reintroduce the amended legislation to the Scottish Parliament. Given how important the UNCRC was to SNP Members and the SNP Government, can any SNP MP tell me when that Bill will be reintroduced to the Scottish Parliament?

[Dr Whitford]

rose—

[Douglas Ross]

I will give way to the hon. Lady if she can tell me.

[Dr Whitford]

I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman is aware, but over the last two and a half years there has been this thing called the covid pandemic, which kept several Governments fairly busy.

[Douglas Ross]

Perhaps the hon. Lady did not hear me. I said that there was a letter from the Deputy First Minister on 1 February 2022—almost a year ago. We had passed omicron by then, and John Swinney was telling us that he would reintroduce the legislation. This is another example of the SNP—the Deputy First Minister—using legislation and vulnerable people to promote a battle between the UK Government and the Scottish Government. We can do far, far better than that.

[Several hon. Members rose—]