Oral Answers to Questions

Paul Scully Excerpts

Tuesday 25th May 2021 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab)]

What plans he has to bring forward legislative proposals to outlaw fire and rehire practices.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

The Department engaged with ACAS to hold discussions in order to generate evidence about the use of fire and rehire. ACAS officials have shared their findings with BEIS officials. It is right and proper that we give this evidence full consideration, and we will communicate our next steps in due course.

[Judith Cummins]

Mr Speaker, I am sure you will join me in welcoming the return of the Bradford Bulls to their iconic home of Odsal Stadium in Bradford.

A recent Survation poll found that 76% of those asked said that they think fire and rehire should be against the law. The Prime Minister has said that fire and rehire is “unacceptable”. The time to act is now. With no mention of it in the Queen’s Speech, when will the Minister legislate to make this practice illegal?

[Paul Scully]

I congratulate the Bradford Bulls on their return.

We have always been clear that using the threats of fire and rehire as a tactic to put undue pressure on workers during negotiations is completely unacceptable, but we need to tread carefully when considering Government intervention in commercial contractual matters between employers and employees. That is why we are now carefully considering, with the evidence, our next steps.

[Grahame Morris]

May I first congratulate members of my union, Unite, at Go North West buses in Manchester who, after an incredible 85 days of continuous strike action, have now won a landmark victory against appalling fire and rehire abuses? My question to the Minister is straightforward: does he condemn rogue bosses such as Go North West or coffee producers Jacobs Douwe Egberts, which, despite record profits during lockdown, has provoked strike action by firing and rehiring more than 300 loyal staff on worse pay and conditions? Will the Minister wake up, smell the coffee and agree that this disgraceful behaviour leaves a bitter taste in the mouth?

[Paul Scully]

I see what the hon. Gentleman has done there. His coffee-based puns belie the fact that this is an incredibly serious situation. As I was saying, if those companies or any others are using such a practice for bully-boy tactics, that is completely unacceptable. We need to look at the evidence before we intervene on the flexibility of the workforce, but clearly we do not want bully-boy tactics to be used for negotiations.

[James Murray]

Thousands of workers at British Airways and Heathrow, including many of my constituents, have been at the sharp end of fire and rehire tactics during the covid outbreak. Across the country, one in 10 workers have been subject to such tactics since last March—that is almost 3 million people who have been forced to accept lower wages and longer hours or be sacked. How many more millions of workers will the Minister allow to be fired and rehired before the Government decide to outlaw the practice?

[Paul Scully]

There is a distinct difference if the practice is used as a negotiation tactic: as I have said, if it is being used as a bully-boy tactic, that is completely unacceptable. However, there is an element of flexibility in our labour market, which we need to base on evidence. That is what the ACAS report is there to do. We are considering the evidence, and I am looking forward to coming back to this place to outline our actions in due course.

[Mohammad Yasin [V]]

Fire and rehire is illegal in countries such as Germany and Spain. In 2019, the Government promised an employment Bill to make Britain the best place in the world to work, which could have outlawed the practice, but the Bill has been ditched. Given that the Government have looked the other way as fire and rehire has become endemic, can the Minister seriously claim to be committed to making Britain the best place in the world to work?

[Paul Scully]

There is a huge difference between our employment law and that of Germany and Spain, in so much as theirs is very much more rigid—it lacks flexibility and that is reflected in the job figures and the job growth we have had in this country. The Government remain committed to bringing forward the employment Bill, where parliamentary time allows. We want to protect and enhance workers’ rights as we build back better from the pandemic.

[Stephen Kinnock [V]]

Fire and rehire has been used against supermarket staff who worked through lockdown to keep our country running, and the practice has now spread into schools, with teachers being threatened with the sack unless they agree to worse terms and conditions. Does the Minister agree that it is completely unacceptable that our key workers, who have sacrificed the most in our national effort against covid, are the very people now being threatened by these bully-boy fire and rehire tactics?

[Paul Scully]

I have said repeatedly that bully-boy tactics are absolutely unacceptable, but if it is a matter of a choice over protecting jobs in the first place, that is the flexibility that we need to check, based on the evidence, and ACAS has gone a long way to providing that evidence.

[Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)]

Why is it that fire and rehire has spread like wildfire across our country? Trade unions are shackled to prevent them from defending their members; employers have free rein to terminate workers’ contracts; and protections for workers are woefully weak. Opposition Members know how to outlaw fire and rehire, and I am more than happy to meet the Minister and show him how, but is not the truth that this Government are content with millions of workers being bullied into accepting low wages and worse terms and conditions or facing the sack, because it is in the Tories’ DNA to side with bad employers rather than to protect working people?

[Paul Scully]

It is in the Tories’ DNA to create jobs and opportunities. After the previous recession, we were creating more jobs than the whole of Europe put together, and we will continue to do so as we build back better after this pandemic. ACAS has provided the evidence for us to consider; we are doing that in due course, and I look forward to coming back to this place. The TUC reported back in January on a survey of its members, but it has not shared its methodology; we cannot use that as substantial evidence unless the TUC shares that with us.

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[Kate Osamor (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)]

What steps he has taken to improve employment rights and protections for gig economy workers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

The Government are committed to protecting and enhancing workers’ rights. The Uber Supreme Court judgment was clear that those who qualify as workers under employment law are entitled to rights such as the national minimum wage, and all gig economy businesses should ensure that they are fulfilling their legal responsibilities.

[Kate Osamor [V]]

Does the Secretary of State recognise that, by ditching the employment Bill and, with it, the opportunity to strengthen the rights of gig economy workers, he has abandoned millions of precarious and low-paid workers to fight through the courts for fair pay and job security?

[Paul Scully]

The Secretary of State and I believe that workers’ rights should be enhanced and protected, so we are absolutely committed to bringing forward an employment Bill that will help us to build back better and to protect vulnerable workers, delivering on our ambition to make the UK the best place in the world in which to work and grow a business. While we are waiting for the employment Bill to come forward in parliamentary time, we will continue in that way.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

What steps he is taking to accelerate the production of clean energy.

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[Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con)]

What steps he is taking to support entrepreneurship.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

Our start-up loans programme has a phenomenal track record of backing budding entrepreneurs. We have supported more than 83,000 people across the UK with £733.5 million in loans. The British Business Bank’s new “UK Unlocked” campaign supports all entrepreneurs to access the right finance to start and grow.

[Dr Evans [V]]

I am really pleased to hear the Minister’s response, and I am grateful for the financial backing the Government give, but for someone sat in Bosworth with a great idea, one of the hardest things they struggle to come up with is where to start, so what are the Government doing to signpost people who want to start a business who are asking exactly that question?

[Paul Scully]

The answer to this question is to go to the Coventry and Warwickshire local enterprise partnership growth hub. There are 38 growth hubs around the country that are one-stop shops to get access to that. We are helping SMEs navigate the business finance landscape through those growth hub networks as well. Our detailed business support webpages provide advice for businesses of all sizes across the UK.

[Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con)]

  If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

--- Later in debate ---

[Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con)]

Levelling up has never been more important than in the historic town of Lye in my constituency, an area that I am determined to help regenerate—made easier, I hope, by the funding put in place by this Government. One business in Stourbridge, I’m Lucky, was unlucky enough to open just before the second lockdown, but with Government support, and helped by its own fantastic entrepreneurism, it has survived. It now has an online shop front, and it has begun recruiting staff. Does my hon. Friend agree that businesses such as I’m Lucky have a vital role to play in levelling up this country?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

I thank my hon. Friend, and I wish I’m Lucky all the best for the future. Over the past year, I have met a number of businesses that have opened either at an unfortunate time—just going into a lockdown—or possibly at a fortunate time, as they steal a march and pivot into new business areas. Growing those small and medium-sized enterprises is really important to levelling up. We have already provided over 1,000 start-up loans worth £11.8 million this year. We are reducing employment costs by up to £4,000 through the employment allowance and supporting skills through apprenticeships. The strengthened prompt payment code ensures that those small businesses will get paid within 30 days.

[Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con) [V]]

Following the Budget, the Leader of the Opposition said that establishing “Treasury North” in Darlington was “not levelling up” but “giving up”. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the opposite is true, and that by shifting decision making outside London, including in his own Department, we will truly level up our country?

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[Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con) [V]]

  The Government are already embarking on their unprecedented levelling-up agenda. What measures is my hon. Friend planning to facilitate levelling up by small businesses, looking specifically at start-ups and growing SMEs, as well as at issues arising from late payments, reducing employment costs, improving skills such as digital skills, and levelling up apprenticeships? Those are the specific questions asked by the Federation of Small Businesses in Hastings and Rye.

[Paul Scully]

The Federation of Small Businesses does a great job across the country, including in Hastings and Rye, and, as I said, it is very important that SMEs play a massive role in levelling up around the country. I have talked about the fact that strengthening the prompt payment code will ensure that small businesses get paid within 30 days. We will always do more to make sure that we can support small businesses, because we know that cash flow is king, and they will be a major part of building back better.

[Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)]

  I have sat through a number of Select Committee reports that have exposed the deficiencies of not-so-smart meters and the extra costs involved, but I was shocked when we found for a recent report that smart meters will not work if we transfer from North sea gas to hydrogen. What do Ministers think the implications are for the future of smart meters of the possibility of using hydrogen as a replacement fuel?

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Scully]

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. It is really important that he stands up for the furniture industry, as he does. The BSI has informed the Department of its intention to retain its membership to continue to influence the development of standards for the benefit of UK businesses. The Government support that position.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) [V]]

May I ask the Minister for an unequivocal statement, consistent with the Government’s zero-carbon promises, that there will be no new coal mines and no new licences for fracking in this country?