Oral Answers to Questions

Mike Penning Excerpts

Monday 24th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op)]

1. If he will undertake a cumulative impact assessment of the effects of the Government’s welfare reforms on sick and disabled people.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mike Penning)]

The Treasury regularly produces analysis of the cumulative effects of the coalition’s changes, including to welfare, but even the Institute for Fiscal Studies says that there are no real results that can be broken down and are reliable enough to show the effect on disabled people.

[Stephen Twigg]

My constituents Natasha Wilson and Katie Lyson are young women with cancer. With support from CLIC Sargent, they applied for personal independence payments seven months ago. Last week, Natasha finally got her money, but Katie is still waiting. Does the Minister agree that a seven-month wait for payment for a young cancer patient is simply unacceptable? Will he look into Katie’s case as a matter of urgency?

[Mike Penning]

I fully agree that that length of wait is unacceptable, and I have been working on this with the two suppliers since I came into office, as did my predecessor. I will personally look into the case and if those involved would like to come to see me, I would be more than happy to meet them.

[Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that although we must always be sensitive in our handling of cases involving the disabled, many people who are extremely disabled welcome the opportunity to be encouraged on pathways to work? The fact that all of us know severely disabled people who work suggests that the broad thrust of Government policy is going in the right direction.

[Mike Penning]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. Interestingly, about 70% of people on the previous benefit, the disability living allowance, were put on it for life. They were, in effect, written off, and this Government will not do that.

[Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)]

A constituent of mine, aged 52, had worked all her life despite having congenital bone disease, until her condition worsened last year. She has to go into hospital next week to have both hips replaced, just at the time that Jobcentre Plus has declared her fit for work and stopped her benefit. When will the Minister ensure that people with disabilities get adequate support and are not treated in this completely harsh and cruel way?

[Mike Penning]

Assessments were brought in by the previous Administration—admittedly, in relation to the work capability assessment. So assessments are nothing new for this Administration, because the previous Administration introduced them. They did not do that very well, but we agree with assessments. Of course if someone is unfit for work, they can have a sick note put in while they are waiting for an appeal to go through—should that happen—and they will be entitled to jobseeker’s allowance. I completely agree that anyone who has gone into hospital cannot be fit for work at that time, but let us hope that the hon. Lady’s constituent is fit and well soon, and can return to work.

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that the emphasis on continuous improvement in the Litchfield and Harrington reviews shows that any cumulative assessment is either impossible or meaningless? Is it not better to rely on the robust statistics on fulfilling potential as the measure of whether the Government’s policy is being successful in this field?

[Mike Penning]

I completely agree with what my hon. Friend says, and that is exactly what our plans are; that is what we want to try to do, and I look forward to working with him on this project.

[Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)]

How can the Government justify removing all phone lines to local jobcentres such as the one in Neath? How are people, especially disabled and sick people, supposed to cope with the fiendishly complex benefits system, or get into jobs, without personalised help and advice? Does the Minister not understand that the most vulnerable people often cannot get online, afford costly daily travel to jobcentres or hang on for ages on expensive 0845 lines?

[Mike Penning]

The 0845 numbers came in when the right hon. Gentleman was a Minister, and we are eradicating them now. Advisers are in place all the time. Most work is done online these days, but the advisers are there to help people, which is why we have been so successful in getting people into work.

[Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)]

Last Saturday, a constituent told me that her husband has throat cancer and is able to breathe only as a result of a laryngectomy and nebuliser treatment. He was found fit to work by Atos and is concerned about the six-week reassessment of what seems to be an inexplicable decision. Will the Minister assure me that there is a direction to improve and get people’s acts together as well as to make the appeals process quicker?

[Mike Penning]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising this issue with me before we came into Question Time. This looks like a case where something should be done. I will wait for the medical professionals to do this; it is a paper-based assessment, not a face-to-face one. I will look into it and come back to my hon. Friend as soon as I can.

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

While the UK Government have resisted calls for a cumulative impact assessment of their welfare reforms, the Scottish Government have undertaken such an assessment. It showed that, overwhelmingly, the £4.5 billion-worth of cuts are falling on disabled people and mothers. Does the Minister accept that the reason he will not carry out such an assessment is because he is scared that it will expose his Government’s priorities and their willingness to punish the poor?

[Mike Penning]

Although I respect what the Scottish Government do, our own Treasury and our own independent forecasts are saying that it is not possible to do that accurately. What I can say to the hon. Lady is that in every year of this coalition Government funding for disabled benefits has gone up, and it will continue to go up through 2015-16—more than was left by the previous Administration.

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

2. What recent progress his Department has made on reducing youth unemployment.

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[Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con)]

4. When he next expects to meet representatives of Atos to discuss its work for his Department.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mike Penning)]

Although we have seen some improvements in Atos quality, we are still in ongoing commercial discussions. Unlike Atos, we respect the commercial confidentiality of those discussions. It is important to get the procurement right. The previous Administration did not share that view, which is why we are in this mess today.

[Anne Marie Morris]

Will the Minister inform the House of what steps he is taking to address the significant backlog that has been created by the delays in claimants receiving their work capability assessments? In my constituency, individuals say that they have been waiting for up to six months, which has a real impact on their financial circumstances.

[Mike Penning]

The issues to do with the work capability assessment and the unacceptable backlog that Atos has built up over the years are due to capacity and quality. The quality, which was very poor earlier on, has been improved. That means that there is now a huge backlog, which is why we are currently in negotiations with Atos.

[Mr Bellingham]

Given that Atos has now announced that it wants to withdraw from the contract that was negotiated with Labour, does the Minister agree that it would be an absolute disgrace if the hard-pressed taxpayer had to pay any form of compensation to the company?

[Mike Penning]

Since we came into power, we have been warning Atos of the need to improve its service. We are seeking agreements with it to ensure that that is done, some of which have not come to fruition. If we terminate the contract today, as the Opposition have suggested, the financial consequences would fall on the taxpayer and not on Atos, which would be absolutely wrong and something that I will not accept.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

I am not sure whether the Secretary of State is glad that he is here rather than in my area where there is a clash of the Cabinets. At least, he has managed to avoid the travel chaos.

Atos has acted as a lightning rod for all that is wrong with the work capability assessment. However, it is delivering a Government contract to Government specifications. What guarantee has the Minister got that any new contract will recognise the problems and the flaws of the system and the sheer misery that Atos has caused in delivering its contracts to ensure that they are not repeated?

[Mike Penning]

That is why we have had five reviews and the rolling reviews continue to take place, and we must learn from the mistakes of the previous Administration, who awarded this contract to Atos—something that they cannot run away from, although they seem to want to do so.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

Now that the Minister has admitted that Atos is in a mess, notwithstanding when that began, will he give a guarantee that there cannot be a test for fitness for work if no one there has medical experience?

[Mike Penning]

All the assessors have medical experience and are clinicians, but the hon. Gentleman cannot run away from the previous Administration, as he loves to try to do, although he was elected on a manifesto with WCA.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

It is no surprise to many that Atos, appointed by the last Labour Government, has now failed its own work capability assessment. Considering that appeals have been upheld for 40% of the original decisions, what can be done to ensure that original decisions are far more accurate and right much more of the time?

[Mike Penning]

We are driving many of the improvements through, and I have actually instigated measures to ensure that we look carefully at what goes to tribunal, because some of the cases should not have gone there. That is why I have instigated the review that is taking place at the moment.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am sure that the Minister will not need reminding that, in fact, his Government extended the contract with Atos and rolled out the move from incapacity benefit, without taking account of the issues that arose in the pilot studies early in his Government’s term in office. Now that Atos has accepted that it cannot deliver this contract, rather than just retendering it, will the Minister take the opportunity to ensure that it is properly fit for purpose, so that it helps those people who want to and who can get into work, rather than hounding those who cannot?

[Mike Penning]

That is exactly what we are doing in the negotiations that we have been involved in for several months now. That is why we are in negotiations with Atos about the future and bringing in more capacity. But this mess was created by the Government—previous Government—and that is the problem, and we extended the contract because we had absolutely no choice whatsoever.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

Atos claims that one of the reasons for getting out of the contract is that its staff have received death threats. Is the Minister able to verify that, and if so, does he agree that, whatever the problems of Atos and the contract agreed by the last Labour Government, there is never any justification for threats of violence or violence against front-line staff—whether nurses, doctors, teachers or, in this case, Atos staff?

[Mike Penning]

I would hope that everyone across the House condemns any of the abuse and the threats against the employees of Atos as completely unacceptable, no matter what their view of Atos.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

This Government have had nearly four years to sort this out, and pinning the blame on Atos will not get around that. Why, knowing the weaknesses of that organisation and all the flaws in how it was working, was it awarded a contract to implement the personal independence payment, which is causing huge delays?

[Mike Penning]

The contract for WCA is completely different from the contract for PIP, with a completely different set of assessments. Four years in, we are still trapped by a contract signed by the previous Administration —something that I intend to get out of, but without penalising the taxpayer.

[Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con)]

5. What recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of his Department’s work experience programme.

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[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

12. What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the implementation of personal independence payments.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mike Penning)]

Personal independence payments were only introduced nationally for new claims in June 2013, and reassessment of existing disability living allowance claimants is being gradually implemented from October 2013, so we are at an early stage. However, the process is taking too long—I accept that—and, working with officials, I am pushing through an agenda to change that.

[Jessica Morden]

Newport citizens advice bureau has assisted many clients with applications for PIPs, and has reported that most decisions take about five months, but some people have been waiting for a decision since July. There are serious delays at both the DWP and the Capita end, although we were assured by previous Ministers that the PIP process would be fit for purpose. Does the Minister accept the stress and hardship that that causes vulnerable people, and why has it taken Ministers so long to get to grips with the problem?

[Mike Penning]

The reason we are phasing the measure in is to make sure that we get it right. There are internal DWP processes that are taking too long. The assessment is taking too long, and it is also the case that some claimants are taking too long to return the forms that have been sent to them. We are working on this with both providers, and we will get there.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

Under the current DLA system, it is hard for people with severe mental health conditions to get the higher-rate amount, but will that change when PIP is implemented?

[Mike Penning]

We often hear about the negative side of PIP, and we have heard again from the Opposition today about their opposition to some parts of it, but there is a great success story for people with mental health issues. Under the old DLA system, they would not be able to get the higher rate that they will receive under PIP, which should be welcomed across the House.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

Last year, there were 229,700 claims for PIP, but decisions were taken on only 43,800—fewer than one in five. How can it be right to take up to six months to reach a decision of such significance for severely disabled people? Has the Minister actually set a target for timely decisions, and what penalties will he impose on the assessors—Capita and Atos—for failing to meet it?

[Mike Penning]

It is always difficult to ask a question that has been written before hearing the previous answers. We accept that there are delays: we accept that within PIP, and we accept that within Atos and Capita. We are working closely with them to deal with that. Under the previous system, less than 6% of people ever had a face-to-face assessment; now it is 97%, which we should welcome. We need to get that down so that we can address paper claims quicker, particularly in cases of terminal illness, which we are working on. However, we must push this forward.

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

It cannot be too early for my constituents who have experienced waits of between five and six months to get an assessment after they have submitted their PIP claim, and others have been told by service providers to expect to wait up to three months to get a decision after the assessment. Will the Minister tell us what he is doing to make sure that service providers face consequences if they do not improve those times?

[Mike Penning]

There are contractual requirements on both providers, and if they do not meet them they will be penalised financially. I also have to say that there are internal delays in DWP, so I am not going to pass the buck entirely on to them, but we will address the problem, and we are doing so. There are measures that we introduced last week which I hope will address the situation with an accumulative effect.

[Mr Speaker]

Mr Kevin Brennan.

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[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

13. What recent assessment he has made of the performance of Capita in relation to personal independence payment assessments.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mike Penning)]

Latest analysis is telling us that the end-to-end claimant journey is taking longer, as I said previously, than expected with both providers—Capita and Atos. As I previously stated, we are taking urgent action on this.

[Kevin Brennan]

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for not allowing me to get ahead of myself earlier.

It is taking months and months for constituents to get these assessments done, and the issue is clogging up a lot of our surgeries as a result of those delays. In his answer to the previous question, the Minister said that claimants were to blame. How much of the problem is he saying is caused by claimants, because I can assure him that, in the case of my constituents, that is not the problem?

[Mike Penning]

As we bed down the new benefit and the new policies, there will be issues within the Department, issues with the contractors and issues not only with people giving advice to claimants, but with claimants themselves. I am not blaming claimants. What we are saying is that there are delays in the forms coming back and delays because they are not filled in correctly. That is something that we need to work on. We need to be more informative about how those forms are to be filled in, and we are working on that. On the terminal illness side, we are working with Macmillan so that it works closely with those claimants.

[Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)]

My constituent Pamela Brown applied for her personal independence payment in July last year, but the persistent failures by Capita meant that she faced a delay of more than three months just to get an assessment. She had numerous appointments that were cancelled and Capita did not even tell her. It was only after she put in numerous formal complaints that Capita addressed the matter. Pamela’s case is clearly far from unique, so can the Minister say a little more about what he is doing to sort out the mess at Capita’s end?

[Mike Penning]

I get people coming to see me at my surgery about exactly the same situation, but the vast majority of assessments are going through and we are trying very hard. We must make sure we get it right. There were issues of quality, which caused the delays, and we are addressing those. That is why the benefit is being phased in, and as we go through we will get a better result for our constituents across the House.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

14. How many people are currently claiming universal credit.

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[Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)]

15. What assessment he has made of the effects of the migration of claimants from incapacity benefit to employment and support allowance.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mike Penning)]

At March 2013, as a result of incapacity benefit reassessment, over 650,000 people have been reassessed and are now either preparing or looking for work.

[Graeme Morrice]

Is the Minister aware that between October 2012 and September 2013, using his own Department’s figures, the ESA participant group performance was 6.6% against the DWP minimum target of 16.5%? Will he now accept that the Government’s Work programme experiment has been a complete waste of time and money, and will they now scrap it?

[Mike Penning]

No, we will not, because we are already two thirds of the way through the incapacity benefit reassessment process. We have 1 million people in the process and, as I said earlier, 650,000 have already progressed through.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

I am very pleased that the employment rate for disabled people has now reached 45%. Does my hon. Friend agree that that shows that, with the right support, disabled people can find and keep work and provide for their own families?

[Mike Penning]

I welcome the fact that it is now 45%, but we can do better, and we need to do better for those disabled people who want to get back into the workplace. That is why Disability Confident is going around the country showing employers how easy and right it is that they employ people with long-term illness and disabilities, and that has been very successful.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

16. What assessment he has made of trends in the number of 18 to 24-year-olds claiming jobseeker’s allowance in Bury North constituency.

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[Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

T3. A constituent of mine recently had his benefits wrongly withdrawn. He has severe learning difficulties and cannot use the internet independently, and therefore has great difficulty in applying for jobs online. Does the Secretary of State agree that targeted support would be more successful in getting my constituent and others back into work than damaging, wrongly imposed benefit sanctions?

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mike Penning)]

It is very important that we help everybody to get back into work, no matter who it is. If benefits have been stopped incorrectly, I promise to look into that for the hon. Lady.

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

T4. The Minister will be aware of the 16% drop in unemployment in my constituency, along with the 34% drop in youth unemployment. Will he join me in welcoming the support of local businesses at our next annual Enfield jobs fair on 7 March, where employers are coming to support us in helping to find work for the unemployed?

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[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

T6. Will Ministers do something about the fact that, of all the people being helped with personal independence payment claims by the Berwick citizens advice bureau, not one remaining in the area has received an assessment since the scheme started?

[Mike Penning]

Of course, as we roll out PIP, this is a really difficult situation and we must make sure we get the quality right. I will look into that individual case for my right hon. Friend and make sure we get it right in his area.

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

T9. Further to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee West (Jim McGovern), a number of my constituents have been on the employment and support programme for two years, or nearly two years, and have had not a sniff of a work opportunity. Do the Government have a solution for how to get people with complex needs into work, because clearly the Work programme is not delivering?

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

T10. One of the issues raised during the last debate before the recess was payment of benefits to terminally ill patients. Will Ministers update the House on what additional help and support is available for recipients of PIP?

[Mike Penning]

It is very important for the families and loved ones of people who are terminally ill to make sure that we get the PIP payment through as fast as possible. The period was too long; we have got it down now, and we need to get it down more. I said to the Select Committee that the proportion should be below 10%. Working with Macmillan, we are going to a PDF as well as a paper-based system for the 2%, but it is very important that we get that right, and that is why I have changed the rules.

[Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

Mr Speaker, you will remember that during exchanges at the last Work and Pensions questions, the Secretary of State said that Manchester had spent very little of its discretionary housing allocation. I wonder whether he wants to use this opportunity to clarify that allegation, given that only two days later, his Department granted Manchester city council an extra £200,000 of discretionary housing payment in recognition that its money was nearly spent.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

My constituent Jane has been receiving treatment for cancer since her diagnosis last October, but she was wrongly told that she was excluded from applying for help unless she resigned from her job altogether or became pregnant. Will the Minister meet me to discuss Jane’s suggestions to improve how patients receiving treatment for serious illnesses are referred by the NHS towards help, such as personal independence payment, in the interests of joined-up government?

[Mike Penning]

There is a very simple answer to the hon. Lady’s question: yes, I will meet her as soon as possible.

[Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)]

Further to all the questions about people who are seriously ill, does the Minister think it right that my constituent, who has a weakened heart, has been told that she will not get the personal independence payment? Surely it is just not right that, to avoid reaching rock bottom, she has to not follow her doctor’s advice not to work, and has to lie about her condition. Surely now is the time to see just how fit for purpose his welfare benefits system is—it is not working.

[Mike Penning]

Assessment was brought in by the previous Administration. I fully accept that there are such individual cases. If the hon. Lady’s constituent has not got PIP, she is entitled to appeal and go to a tribunal and the higher tribunal, and she can also register for JSA and produce a sicknote. I will look into the individual case if the hon. Lady so wishes.