PIP Changes: Impact on Carer’s Allowance

Meg Hillier Excerpts

Thursday 27th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[Sir Stephen Timms]

I suppose the hon. Gentleman has no choice but to attempt to defend his party’s record in government. As I have referred to already, the Conservative party’s plan was to convert PIP into vouchers—that really frightened people who were dependent on that system—and they also wanted to make some big cuts to the work capability assessment, which were ruled out by the courts as unlawful. We announced in the Green Paper that we are going to abandon those cuts. For example, the Conservatives were proposing to remove the mobility descriptor from the work capability assessment on the grounds that people can now work from home, but it is clearly ludicrous to claim that a mobility impairment does not affect a person’s ability to work. I remind the hon. Gentleman that in responding to the Green Paper on behalf of the Opposition, his hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Helen Whately) demanded further cuts, so the outrage he has expressed is a bit inappropriate.

We have a proper plan, set out in the Green Paper. It has been well thought through—as the hon. Gentleman will find if he reads it properly—including a reference to unpaid carers on its very last page. We are well aware of the impact it will have, which is why we are consulting on the transitional arrangements.

[Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

I thank my right hon. Friend for coming before the House and calmly laying out some of the facts on this matter, as I would expect from him, given his experience. However, there has been a lot of fear out there, and confusion among MPs, advisers and—most worryingly—people who are in receipt of PIP and other benefits and are affected by these changes. Does my right hon. Friend agree that clear communications at all times about this matter are very important, and that every Minister should be very careful about clumsy and inappropriate language, because of the impact it has on the people who are most affected?

[Sir Stephen Timms]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right about the sensitivity of this issue. I particularly regret the anxiety that has been caused by press speculation over the past several weeks—that has certainly been regrettable. From my postbag, the thing that particularly frightened people was the point I have already referred to, which was the previous Government’s proposal to switch PIP from a cash benefit to vouchers. That caused a great deal of concern, but my hon. Friend is right: we now need to be absolutely clear in our communication about these matters. I think the Green Paper is clear. The accessible versions of the Green Paper will all be published by the beginning of next month, and we will then have a 12-week consultation period. As a result of those versions, including the easy-read version, being available, I hope that everybody will be able to see clearly what is proposed and will be able to respond to the consultation with their views.

Welfare Reform

Meg Hillier Excerpts

Tuesday 18th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[Liz Kendall]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we need extra investment in the NHS and to overhaul the culture of the DWP, and that is precisely what we are doing. We are investing an additional £26 billion into the NHS, an extra £172 million into the disabled facilities grant to help disabled people to live independently, and £3.7 billion into social care, which is such an important issue.

We need a decisive cultural shift in the DWP. That is why our Get Britain Working plans include proposals to overhaul jobcentres. We have also said today that we need to look fundamentally at our safeguarding approach. Our Pathways to Work programme is genuinely just that. For some people, getting out of the house is an achievement; for others, it is maybe going along to a community group, doing voluntary action or getting skills. That is what we mean, and we will work closely not only with the NHS and social care—and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care—but with voluntary organisations, which have such a vital role in helping people on to a pathway to success.

[Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s commitment to ensuring that no one is on the scrapheap when it comes to work and that everyone gets the support that they need. I note that she is consulting on delaying access to the health top-up in universal credit until the age of 22. Will she explain the rationale for that age, and what savings does she expect to make if that consultation goes forward?

[Liz Kendall]

My hon. Friend raises a really important issue. Patience is not my greatest virtue, but Members will need to wait until the spring statement for the OBR’s full assessment of individual measures and the savings they make. On delaying access to the health top-up for people under 22, there will be a specific exemption for those who are never able to work because their disability is so severe. This is all about matching it with our youth guarantee, announced in the Get Britain Working plan, to make sure every young person is earning or learning. If someone is not in education, employment or training when they are young, the impact can be lifelong and scarring on their health, job prospects and earnings, so we have to put that right.

Oral Answers to Questions

Meg Hillier Excerpts

Monday 17th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[Alison McGovern]

The Health Secretary and I talked about child poverty many times as we sat on the Opposition Benches watching the situation for our kids get worse and worse every year. The Member makes a very serious and important point about the wide-ranging consequences of poverty and, if I may, I would encourage him to submit the evidence he mentioned to the child poverty taskforce so that we can take full account of it.

[Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

One in two children in my constituency live in poverty. There is a lot of speculation swirling around the excellent child poverty taskforce, which I applaud the Government for establishing, including that the cap could be lifted for under-fives, which would affect fewer than 20,000 households compared with the 440,000 households which currently are affected by the two-child benefit cap. Can the Minister reassure the House and the country that the child poverty taskforce is looking to support all children in poverty, whatever decisions it comes up with, and not just a small segment of them?

Oral Answers to Questions

Meg Hillier Excerpts

Monday 3rd February 2025 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Final question, Dame Meg Hillier.

[Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

I applaud the Front-Bench team for its energy in driving the child poverty taskforce, but every decision has consequences and costs. Will the Minister outline the costs of some of the processes she is looking at changing, particularly the cost of lifting the two-child cap, and if she does not have the figure to hand will she write to me?

[Alison McGovern]

I thank my hon. Friend the Chair of the Treasury Committee for all her work on this issue. I will happily engage with her through correspondence on the matter.

Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Meg Hillier Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 3rd February 2025 Commons Chamber

[Liz Kendall]

I will set this out first. The Bill will provide the authority with new powers to obtain search warrants, to enter premises and seize evidence as part of fraud investigations, to compel businesses and individuals to provide information where there is a suspicion of fraud, and to enable it to better detect and prevent payments made as a result of fraud or error. It will also bring in new debt recovery powers, so that we can get public money back for taxpayers, and new financial penalties that the PSFA can use as an alternative to often lengthy criminal prosecutions.

What happened during the pandemic was completely unacceptable, with billions of pounds squandered by the Conservatives on dodgy deals with their covid cronies. This Bill will help us to get that money back. It will double from six to 12 years the time limit for civil claims to be brought in alleged cases of covid fraud, giving the PSFA and our new covid counter-fraud commissioner more time to investigate complex cases relating to those who exploited a national emergency for personal profit.

[Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

I have spent more than a decade studying fraud and error in the DWP. The Secretary of State is right that levels of fraud have been intransigently high, but my concern is about where there are errors. Quite often, they are made by the Department. My constituent received a £5,000 overpayment. Will the Secretary of State make it clear to the House that people in that situation will not have money taken out of their bank account, and that they will be treated properly if there is a small error on their side or a big error by the Department?

[Liz Kendall]

I will come on to that point in a moment, but I have the utmost respect for my hon. Friend. In fact, I think that the measures in the Bill will help us to spot such errors and prevent them from happening in the first place. People make genuine mistakes. We do not want them to build up errors and build up debt that they have to repay. I think that the Bill is part of solving that problem. I will say more about that in a moment.

I turn to fraud and error specifically in our welfare system. The Bill will modernise and extend the DWP’s anti-fraud powers, bringing it into line with other bodies such as His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, so that we can use technology and data to find and prevent fraud more quickly and effectively; so that our serious and organised counter-fraud investigators have the powers they need to search premises and seize evidence, including from criminal gangs, and bring offenders to justice; and so that we can ensure that when people owe us money and, crucially, when they can pay, we get that money back for taxpayers. That all comes with strong and new safeguards and with independent oversight on the face of the Bill, as I will set out in detail.

Oral Answers to Questions

Meg Hillier Excerpts

Monday 7th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Emma Reynolds]

The ombudsman took six years to look into what is a serious, significant and complex set of cases. We need time to look at that seriously, and we are doing precisely that.

[Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

9. What steps she is taking to support vulnerable people into work.

[The Minister for Social Security and Disability (Sir Stephen Timms)]

We are committed to supporting vulnerable customers into work. At jobcentres, for example, we can identify the support needed and signpost people to courses or organisations to help them overcome barriers. We will be saying more about our proposals in the forthcoming employment White Paper.

[Dame Meg Hillier]

In my local jobcentre on Mare Street in my constituency, there is an extremely good team of DWP staff who work closely with vulnerable constituents to help them overcome the hurdles to getting benefits and getting into work. However, for people with fluctuating conditions, and particularly mental health conditions, there are many barriers both for them and for prospective employers. I wonder whether the Minister could give us a taster of what might be in the White Paper in terms of support for employers in particular to encourage them to take on people with such challenges.

[Sir Stephen Timms]

I very much welcome my hon. Friend’s positive report of the work in her local jobcentre. She highlights a major challenge behind a significant proportion of increased inactivity over the past few years. We will set out our response in the “Getting Britain Working” White Paper, but we are already providing tailored support in partnership with NHS talking therapies and individual placement and support in primary care. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that there is a good deal more to be done.

Social Security

Meg Hillier Excerpts

Tuesday 10th September 2024 Commons Chamber

[Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

Before I start, I want to thank the House for putting its confidence in me to chair the Treasury Committee for the term of this Parliament. I am the servant of this House, and I will question without fear or favour those who appear before us. I look forward to engaging with the new Members I have yet to get to know. I also declare an interest: my husband has been in receipt of the winter fuel allowance, but if the vote changes that today, he will no longer receive it. For his own vanity, I should add that it is the lower limit.

The decision that we are being asked to make today is a difficult one, but sadly it will not be the only difficult decision facing the new Labour Government. Before the general election, I had the privilege of chairing the Public Accounts Committee for nine years. In that role, I saw all of the impacts on public finances—current, past and future. When I heard my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West and Pudsey (Rachel Reeves) talk about the challenges ahead and the dire consequences, I would say, “You think it’s that bad; I know it’s a lot worse.” We have heard of the Chuckle Brothers, but I described us as the Misery Sisters, because when she said it was bad, I said it was going to be worse. That is the reality. The chickens are coming home to roost on the spending of the previous Government.

We saw a number of problems, which I laid out in my last annual report as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee—factually accurate information. The NHS capital budget was raided to pay for day-to-day expenses, but the backlog of capital expenditure in the NHS was £10.2 billion in the year ending 2022.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

As I served with the hon. Lady on the PAC, I warmly congratulate her on her election as Chair of the Treasury Committee. The House has made a very good choice.

Members of the Rayleigh, Rochford and District Association for Voluntary Service, whom I met last Friday, were genuinely worried about this policy. In a nutshell, their argument was that if people on very modest incomes are now frightened to heat their homes, that could lead to illness for many of those people, who will then present themselves to hospital and increase the winter pressures on A&E. By that method, it would be a false economy. The game is not worth the candle. What does the hon. Lady, whom I respect, say to that?

[Dame Meg Hillier]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman, with whom I had the pleasure of serving on the Public Accounts Committee. That is an example of how the House works closely together; most people would not think that we would agree on many issues, but on that Committee we produced every report in tandem.

The right hon. Gentleman will know that the pressures on the NHS are legion, and that many of the same people who will be suffering this cut to their income—we will come on to some of the measures to ameliorate it—will be the same people queuing and waiting for a hospital appointment. I know too many pensioners who do not get that hip replacement if they cannot afford it, but many are cashing in their savings, when they have them, to pay for a hip replacement so they can have quality of life. That is not the NHS that the right hon. Gentleman or I want to see in this country, so we need to make choices. One choice that this Government are making is to ensure that we pull the NHS waiting lists back. I could digress into the NHS for a long time, but if he will forgive me, I will move on.

Looking at our schools estate, under the last Government the Department for Education asked the Treasury for capital funding for schools of £5.3 billion in 2020. It was allocated only £3.1 billion, so there is a big backlog there.

In the defence sector there are many examples, but I will pick just a couple. Not a single nuclear submarine that has come out of service has yet been decommissioned in this country. It will cost around £500 million in 2018 prices for a single one, amounting to nearly three quarters of a billion pounds in 2018 prices to complete all of those. It is getting to a critical point. These decisions have been delayed and deferred for too long—in this case, by Governments of all colours, not just the last Government—and there is a gap of at least £17 billion in the defence equipment plan over 10 years.

There is also a lack of transparency about local authority spending because of the crisis in local government audit, which was overseen by the last Government. Not enough was done to deal with it. I could go on: there is a long list of expensive things that this Government now need to put right because of neglect over a period of time.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Dame Meg Hillier]

Let me continue for a moment. There are budget challenges this year, and many decisions that were made in recent Budgets will hit the public finances in 2025, 2026 or beyond, because there was either huge optimism about the state of economic growth or a deferral of painful cuts. Different Members of the House will have their own views.

[Paul Holmes (Hamble Valley) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Member on the post to which she has been elected. She has just outlined a number of projects for which public money needs to be found. As the shadow Secretary of State outlined, the Government’s decision today will save £1.1 billion, and the replacements they are putting in place will cost £3 billion. How does that make economic sense, and how does it help the case that she is making?

[Dame Meg Hillier]

I give credit to the hon. Gentleman for his chutzpah in coming to the House today to say that it is this Government who have denuded pensioners of income. As my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Gareth Snell) highlighted, the previous Government have a track record in that area, and there are 880,000 pensioners who, on the hon. Gentleman’s watch, deserved pension credit but did not get it. Those pensioners have lost out on £3,900 a year, in some cases for many years, because the last Government fell down on the job. They protected some pensioners, but not all. Where was the urgency then? These are crocodile tears when those people were suffering, but it is right that pensioners should get what they are entitled to, and pension credit is not being abolished by this Government. Rather, it is being promoted to make sure that the very poorest pensioners get that income.

One of the things that is absolutely apparent is that we cannot take this issue in isolation. We have a Budget coming on 30 October, and knowing what I knew a few months ago as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee and what I know today, I am not going to change my tune about the dire state of public finances. However, we face a second challenge: at the same time that our public finances are in that dire state, many of our citizens face the same challenges in their personal finances. This Labour Government are rightly committed to growth, but that will require an approach to taxation that helps ensure growth. We will therefore hear many arguments about the need for a taxation system that will underpin growth.

[Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stamford) (Con)]

I thank my honourable friend for giving way. I call her “friend” because we have worked together very closely over the past few years, and I welcome her election—I would have supported her for that role.

The difficulty is that the public are not buying it. The Government cannot claim that they need to take this money from vulnerable pensioners—over 20,000 in my constituency will lose the support they are currently getting—and then reward train drivers who work four days a week on 70 grand a year. That is the difficulty, so how is my hon. Friend explaining that to her constituents? I have not been able to give an answer.

[Dame Meg Hillier]

I could speak forever about the challenges that the last Government left. I have spoken about the NHS, but let us take the dire state of our train services. The previous Government refused to engage and stop the strikes, which meant that anybody travelling had no certainty about whether they could get to everything from work to a family funeral. Lives were put in havoc, so it is absolutely right that we begin to set right the chaos that the last Government left. Yes, there is a cost to that, so the challenge for my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West and Pudsey and this Government is how we address that, making decisions that will build up the future of Britain in the way that we all want to see.

We also need to address the issue of taxation. The biggest challenge in our taxation system is that those who face the greatest financial challenges often face the biggest challenges of all, because the greatest cliff edges in our taxation and benefits system affect not those who are starting to earn and accumulate wealth, but those who are most financially challenged. For those at the margin, we keep coming across examples—this is not the only one—where the marginal costs of a slight improvement in income can drastically outweigh that improvement, whether that is tax thresholds being frozen or the issues we have seen with child benefit. There are many more examples, and the debate we are having today is one of those. The solution is not to duck or defer the need for tough choices, so, for the record, I will be voting with the Government. Equally for the record, though, I want this Government to commit to tackling those cliff edges, because that is what progressive policy—including taxation policy—looks like.

Like many Members of this House, I know from bitter experience that rushed laws tend to be bad laws, so I do not expect some Houdini-like solution to be announced from the Front Bench by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) in her closing speech. Instead, I expect and trust that she will consider removing those chains of poverty as a key mission for this Government in a thoughtful, carefully planned way; one that is tied up with the next Budget but goes way beyond it.

I also know, as will many Members, that there are technical challenges in making changes. Look at what has happened with child benefit: the limits on income are dragging many people into tax returns, where households of the same income did or did not receive child benefit depending on who was earning the money. That is a lesson in why changes need to be made in a sustainable way and according to a plan. My right hon. Friend on the Front Bench and her colleagues have a plan, but the winter fuel allowance, which we are discussing now, is a prime example of the problems that those cliff edges create. Addressing those problems in isolation, however, will leave in place all the other cliff edges; we need to look at challenging poverty in the round.

I was honoured to be chosen yesterday to be Chair of the Treasury Committee. I do not yet have Committee members—they are yet to be elected, as is the Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee—so I cannot speak for a Committee that does not yet exist on a cross-party basis, but I will be urging the Committee to consider this wider challenge of cliff edges as a matter of urgency. I look forward to working with Ministers to find some practical steps forward.

We have to make tough choices as a Government in-year, because one of the challenges is that the hole in the public finances is not just about the hole today. In previous Budgets, decisions were made to defer spending to later years, so the real challenge is now. Too often I have seen calls for efficiency savings and cuts in-year that end up being deferred. If we look at what happened to the defence equipment plan under the Conservative Government in 2010, we see that there was a desire to balance the books. In doing so, the Ministry of Defence deferred spending—moved it to the right—which left us with aircraft carriers without aircraft and a raft of other problems. Deferring decisions and spending does not solve things, and this Government and this Cabinet are making the tough choices to make those difficult decisions in-year, because that is financially literate and the right thing to do.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

I call the Father of the House.