Disabled Young People (Support)

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Wednesday 7th September 2011 Westminster Hall

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

I am grateful to be here today under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone, and I shall do my best to be equitable in the distribution of time.

I of course begin by congratulating the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) on obtaining the debate. I call him an hon. Member as he sits on the Government Benches, but like my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) I regard him as a friend. I have got to know him well and he has this morning demonstrated his commitment to disability issues. His pursuance of those matters is well recognised in this Chamber and I hope to continue to work closely with him.

The debate has been very interesting, and hon. Members have spoken convincingly of the points that need to be addressed. I shall focus particularly on those that lie within my responsibility, but perhaps I will make one or two wider remarks. In an extremely moving speech, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) dealt with the range of issues that must be grappled with, at the heart of which is the pressure on families. We should always be reminded of the daily grind that many families face. We can never have enough time to deal with those issues, and have just touched on them today. I hope we can continue to deal with them.

In my time working with this brief, I have met the Spink family and the Kennedy family. I do not know whether any hon. Members present have come across them, but I am sure that they are known to the Minister. They have spoken in shocking detail of their experience of services—their inflexibility—and the unwillingness, perhaps of us all, to fully appreciate the depth of the challenge that many families face. We say that we have made progress—I will defend the progress made by my party’s Government, and the Minister will defend hers—but there has never been enough progress to address the reality for those families.

My hon. Friend spoke very well, particularly about the last family he mentioned, and about veterans, as well as the amount of work we still have to do. Of course, the briefings that we received from the Children’s Society put it very well when speaking about the different culture and the different eligibility criteria that the hon. Member for Eastbourne drew to our attention, and the impact that that can have on the lives of young disabled people and their families. We must force ourselves to improve services.

I was tempted to talk about services, local authority funding and suchlike, but I do not want to go down that route because of the lack of time. I shall concentrate instead on welfare reform, which is clearly part of the Minister’s remit. The reforms relating to disability are perhaps some of the most controversial elements in the Government’s proposals in the Welfare Reform Bill. The Government will say that the Bill is the hallmark of their Administration and a flagship policy. I am grateful to have the opportunity this morning to interrogate the Government in more detail, but we will obviously continue to do so.

The hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) referred to universal credit; we have not focused enough on that, yet it is vital for disabled people. I also want to consider the personal independence payment, and I shall of course return to my hobby-horse, the disability living allowance mobility allowance, which has also been mentioned.

I start with DLA reform because of its importance to children, of which all who have seen the briefings will be aware. As has been mentioned, 1.8 million working adults will be migrated to the new benefit, and there are implications for those who turn 16 in 2013, but we do not know much about what will happen to the 300,000 children currently in receipt of DLA, other than the fact that their situation will be considered once the proposed reassessment of adults is under way. That is controversial in itself and is causing enormous alarm among charities, families and individuals.

It is vital that we deal with this quickly because clause 87 of the Welfare Reform Bill, which is making its way through Parliament, removes clauses 71 to 76 of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992—the legislation that currently provides DLA to disabled children. Alternative arrangements clearly have to be put in place quickly and we need to know the details soon. The Minister will be aware that in Committee we asked what the proposals for children were likely to be, and my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston mentioned several times the need to consider the matter. A number of amendments were tabled—they were not successful—on reassessing the impact of the six months delay in receiving benefit and whether the ending of automatic entitlement would affect children. A number of substantial questions need to be dealt with in depth.

Disability premiums in universal credit are vital, and I ask the House to focus on them because charities are deeply concerned about the changes. Those on the middle and lower rates of DLA care who receive only the disability element receive £52, and those on the higher rate, who receive both the disability element and the enhanced element, receive £73. Under the new system of universal credit, the rates for children will be aligned with those for adults, so that there will be two rates of award: £25.95 and £74.50. That change means that people will now be eligible for either the lower or the upper rate of premium, rather than the combined amount. The important point is that those families on the higher rate will be slightly better off, receiving £74.50, an increase of £1.50; but those on the middle and lower rate will receive £25.95, a substantial reduction from £52. I ask the House to focus on that as the Welfare Reform Bill makes its way through Parliament—it is in the other place now. Support for disabled children on the middle and lower rate of DLA will be halved.

Charities estimate that about 100,000 families—including, for example, families with autistic children—will lose up to £1,366 a year, amounting to about £20,000 by the time a child reaches the age of 16. That is a substantial loss of benefit. As the hon. Member for Eastbourne pointed out, 52% of families with a disabled child are at risk of poverty. The benefit is means-tested, so the poorest families will suffer the greatest hit. That is a significant change. I note the hon. Gentleman’s gentle challenge to the Government to rethink some parts of the Bill, and I encourage him to take up that cause. Universal credit is seen as a panacea to the challenges of the current benefit system, but I caution Members not to rush to that conclusion, because many disabled children will lose out.

The DLA mobility component is one of the most highly publicised and controversial elements of the Government’s policy, and it applies to children as well as to adults. Specific reference has been made to children in residential schools and colleges who depend on mobility support. The briefing from Every Disabled Child Matters states that for all young people aged 16 to 25, the ability to get around independently is vital to allowing them to lead the ordinary lives of young people and for developing the life skills that will lead to independent living later in life. It would be devastating for these disabled young people to find that financial support for mobility was withdrawn just as their adult lives were beginning. The campaign to save the DLA mobility component is ongoing. I appreciate that the Government have announced a review, but some confusion remains about how the policy will work and what impact it will have. I ask the Minister to answer one simple question. Do any children in residential settings face the prospect of losing their mobility component? If so, I ask all Members to join me in saying that that should not happen. We should try to prevent that group of vulnerable people from losing such a critical benefit.

Oral Answers to Questions

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Monday 18th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Maria Miller]

The hon. Gentleman has probably raised this matter with me before. The Red Book reflects the current position, which is that support for care home residents is being reviewed alongside the broader reform of DLA. The figures in the Red Book make it clear that those savings will be made as part of the Government’s overall reform of the programme, which is very consistent with what I have said, and will be part of the reform of PIP.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

I take it from the Minister’s answer to the previous question that the loss of £160 million for disabled people will continue. I draw to her attention the launch today of an independent review of the mobility component of disability living allowance, led by Lord Low of Dalston CBE and overseen by the charities Leonard Cheshire Disability and Mencap. It has been launched because they have lost confidence in the Government’s review. Unlike the Government’s review, the Low review includes clear terms of reference, calls for evidence and representations from disabled people themselves. If the Minister is sure of her ground on this matter, and in the interests of transparency, will she commit today to participating in the Low review?

[Maria Miller]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question—I think. The deficit does not go away, and I think she needs to remember that. We have to ensure that we have sufficient money to have a sustainable disability living allowance or personal independence payment into the future, and I look forward to working with her on ways of achieving that. With regard to the additional evidence that will be put forward as part of the Low review, I obviously welcome any additional information that will help us, along with the 5,500 submissions we have received as part of the DLA consultation. This is a really important issue and I am glad that the hon. Lady is getting involved in finding the right solution, because obviously that is important for us all.

Welfare Reform Bill

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

We will see how the debate goes, and I am sure that we will look favourably upon the issue when we get there.

Clause 78

Ability to carry out daily living activities or mobility activities

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

I beg to move amendment 43, page 56, line 40, at end insert—

‘(7) Regulations shall exempt people with prescribed medical conditions from the requirement in subsection (4)(c), including in prescribed circumstances where the individual is—

(a) severely mentally impaired;

(b) a double amputee;

(c) deaf/blind;

(d) undergoing haemodialysis;

(e) severely visually impaired; and/or

(f) meets the requirements of special rules set out in Clause 80.’.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 76, in clause 79, page 56, line 45, leave out ‘as respects every time’ and insert

‘as regularly as their disabling condition occurs’.

Amendment 44, page 56, line 45, leave out ‘6’ and insert ‘3’.

Amendment 77, page 57, line 3, leave out ‘as respects every time’ and insert

‘as regularly as their disabling condition occurs’.

Amendment 45, page 57, line 3, leave out ‘6’ and insert ‘9’.

Amendment 46, page 57, line 15, leave out from ‘previous’ to second ‘months’ and insert

‘3 months means the 3’.

Amendment 47, page 57, line 17, leave out from ‘next’ to second ‘months’ and insert

‘9 months means the 9’.

Amendment 66, in clause 83, page 58, line 34, leave out ‘meets the condition in subsection (2)’ and insert

‘is an inpatient of a hospital’.

Amendment 41, page 58, line 35, leave out ‘2’ and insert ‘3’.

Amendment 42, page 58, line 40, at beginning insert—

‘(3) The condition is that the person is an in-patient of a hospital.

(4) ’.

Amendment 73, in clause 86, page 59, line 35, at end insert—

‘(3) The Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a report on the impact of regulations made under section 83 within 12 months of the regulations being laid before Parliament.’.

Amendment 60, in schedule 10, page 140, line 25, at end insert—

‘(3) The Secretary of State shall ensure that, in respect of any person whose award of disability living allowance is terminated on or after the appointed day, an award of personal independence payment is made without application, and that said award is not subject to the requirements of assessment in section 78(3) or (4), or subsection (2) of this section, until:

(a) The Secretary of State has commissioned an independent report, no less than six months after the appointed day, on the effectiveness of the assessment process as used on new applicants for personal independence payment, and;

(b) The Secretary of State has satisfied himself, having consulted with disabled people, that the assessment process is functioning correctly.’.

Amendment 74, in clause 91, page 61, line 13, at end insert—

‘(c) the first regulations under section 83 containing provisions about the payment of the mobility component of personal independence payments to residents of a care home.’.

[Margaret Curran]

We have reached a vital stage in our consideration of the Bill. Government proposals for the reform of benefits for disabled people have been mired in controversy and bogged down by issues that the Government have failed to address, and they have alienated many organisations of and for disabled people. Sadly, instead of listening to and attempting to understand those concerns, the Government have dismissed them and undermined the traction that they command throughout the country. So much for the new politics! Instead of continuing the previous policy and the new approach of co-production practised with care and consideration by my right hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) when she was the Minister with responsibility for disabled people, the Under-Secretary has been steadfast in her refusal to appreciate the issues brought to her, which I will detail. I fear that her approach has alienated the voices for reform in the disability movement and in this House. As a result, we are debating a huge missed opportunity for meaningful reform. However, we are where we are, and we will debate the proposals before us and our amendments to improve them.

Let me say a few words to provide some context. Although disability living allowance is a much respected and much valued benefit, it was designed in a different time, well before measures such as the Disability Discrimination Act 2005 and the Equality Act 2010, which were introduced by the last Labour Government and which have profoundly changed the way in which disabled people participate and are recognised in society today. I acknowledge that the application procedure to make a new DLA claim—the process of self-assessment whereby somebody has to fill out a long, and at times complicated, form—is not one that many people believe to be suitable in a modern welfare state. We therefore believe, and have said consistently throughout our deliberations, that it is right to reform DLA. We welcome the Government’s decision to keep DLA as a non-means-tested, in-work benefit, and we think it is right to introduce a new, objective gateway.

Notwithstanding that, we feel that this Government have made profound mistakes and have missed opportunities in their approach to DLA reform. The whole process was kick-started by a rushed consultation. Apparently, according to the DWP website, it was one of the biggest of its kind, yet despite all those representations it yielded very few changes following the introduction of the Bill. The consultation was carried out over the Christmas and new period and was cut short. Perhaps most disappointingly of all, the Government chose to publish their proposals before it had even closed. No wonder this Minister, in particular, has a reputation for not listening. She will know that charities and the disabled people whom they represent have been highly critical of the process of reform. It did not have to be like that, and it is very disappointing that the Government did not undertake more groundwork to ensure that key stakeholders were a key part of the reform process.

While we take issue with the process of reform, we also have major concerns about its substance, and that will be the focus of my remarks. We now know that universal credit will halve support for disabled children and take away the severe disability premium for disabled people who live alone without a carer, yet put nothing appropriate in its place. Furthermore, part 4 outlines details of the new personal independence payment, with proposals to make disabled people wait half a year before they receive support and to take away the right of automatic entitlement for those with severely disabling conditions. The proposals are plainly chaotic and confused as regards the future of DLA mobility component for those in residential care homes.

[Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend has referred to the Government not listening and not understanding. Does she share my utter dismay at what the Prime Minister said at Prime Minister’s questions, when, on at least four occasions, he failed to acknowledge and understand what the Bill means, or even to see the difference between those who are terminally ill and those with cancer?

[Margaret Curran]

I could not agree more. It was staggering how ill-informed the Prime Minister seemed to be about the impact that the Bill will have on cancer patients. I will make reference to further experiences that cancer victims will have as a result of these proposals. There is worse news for them, as we will find out.

Our amendments seek to put right the wrongs in the Bill. They would make the personal independence payment a fairer, more effective and more workable component of welfare reform. That is incredibly important given the scale of the reform, with 1.8 million working-age people being assessed in just three short years. Let me begin with one of the most controversial elements of the Government’s proposals and explain the key arguments behind our amendments to clause 83, which deals with the mobility component for those in residential care homes. That policy has attracted much attention and has been the subject of much debate inside and outside the House, yet the Government’s position remains, I am sorry to say, far from clear.

The blanket cut to those living in residential care was first announced by the Chancellor in the comprehensive spending review: it is there on page 12 of the documentation that I have here beside me. For the record, that position has not changed. The cut was in the first Budget document, and it remains in today’s Budget document. Granted, it has been delayed by six months, but it is still there. The proposal was met with an outcry from disabled people, disability organisations and the Opposition. Where was the Government’s much vaunted compassionate welfare reform? Why single out this particular group? Why select perhaps one of the most vulnerable sections of society? We have heard much talk of reviews and overlaps, but let there be no mistake—unless clause 83 is amended, people living in residential care homes can have their DLA mobility taken away from them.

Let me draw to the attention of Members who may be thinking about how they will vote a briefing submitted by several charitable organisations, which says that while the Government are no longer planning to remove DLA mobility from people living in residential care, they are planning to remove PIP mobility. Members should be careful to remember that if the Government say they are not removing DLA mobility, the Bill as it stands will remove PIP mobility.

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

I accept the hon. Lady’s observations about the confusion over the Government’s intentions. I think she just said that the Bill will remove PIP mobility. Is it not the case that the Government could bring forward regulations to remove PIP mobility? What we have to determine this afternoon, and what I hope Ministers will give us assurances on, is whether that is the Government’s intention.

[Margaret Curran]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments. I know that he takes a great interest in this matter. That is exactly the point I am about to address. Our purpose this afternoon is to prohibit the Government from ever taking away PIP mobility from those in residential care. I hope that I can win his support, because I know that he has a genuine interest in this matter. I hope he bears with me, and I will gladly allow him to intervene again.

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

Just to put it in plain English, are we agreed across the House that the mobility allowance, as it used to be called, should be available to people who happen to live in a residential home, rather than in their own home, whether their home is within a residential home or they are living in a block with others?

[Margaret Curran]

Yes, that is what we agree on. Our amendments would ensure that the Government do not have a blanket power to remove PIP mobility from people because they live in residential care. If Members agree with me, they should vote for our amendments. I will go through the arguments again, and hopefully that point will be clear.

--- Later in debate ---

[Margaret Curran]

This is getting embarrassing because, again, I could not agree with the hon. Gentleman more. He made the point perfectly. I commend him because he too takes a strong interest in this matter and has argued passionately for his constituents.

Unlike the Government’s position on DLA mobility for those in residential care homes, Labour’s position is crystal clear, as are our amendments. The Government must not remove DLA mobility for those in residential care and must delete the part of clause 83 that sets out to do just that. When I say “DLA mobility” throughout my remarks, I also mean as it applies to PIP mobility.

There have been many warm words from the Minister on the Government’s plans on DLA mobility, but they come as little reassurance to disabled people when they realise that absolutely nothing has changed since the cut was announced. The clause remains unamended and the cut remains in the Budget book. Some 80,000 disabled people continue to be under threat of losing out at the hands of this Government. Warm words, yes; a change in policy, no.

When justifying this cut, the Minister explains that it is about removing the overlap in provision. She has described a situation of chaos in the residential care sector in relation to this benefit, but hon. Members and charities have heard little or no evidence to substantiate that claim. Furthermore, she knows as well as we do that she does not need clause 83 to remove any overlap there might be in the provision of services to support the mobility and transport needs of care home residents. She already has the power to set new eligibility criteria. Such criteria could remove any overlap in funding or inconsistency in practice and ensure that the mobility component of DLA is used appropriately—I presume that that is the reason for her concerns about overlap. If care homes or local authorities are using the mobility component in a way that is not appropriate, she should address it head-on with the care homes and local authorities.

[Bill Esterson]

My hon. Friend is making an extremely good case. One of my constituents has said that if the mobility component of DLA is taken away, it

“will make a prison of my son’s care home”.

A wider issue that has been raised by many constituents is that people may be in care for many years with considerable mobility needs and that the care home needs the extra resources to get them beyond the front door.

[Margaret Curran]

I thank my hon. Friend for drawing our attention to his constituents’ concerns. I am sure that he, and all Members, will bear that experience in mind when we vote this afternoon. I appeal to Members to consider the significant needs of people who live in care homes. That should direct us in how we vote.

[Mark Durkan]

Does the hon. Lady agree that many people will be perturbed and confused by the fact that the Government are derelict on the real crisis affecting care homes in funding, ownership and stability, but are diligent in trying to claw back the pittance that some people in those care homes receive, based on the myth that there is some financial West Lothian question whereby people are being paid out of one fund and also getting money out of another?

[Margaret Curran]

The hon. Gentleman makes his point with great passion. We must bear in mind the context in which this decision is being taken and the scale of resource that is involved. I have to say to him that we have found no evidence of great concerns about the practice of care homes and local authorities on the matter. The Minister has not presented any such evidence to us or to charities, and we cannot see where the great worry or cause for concern is.

[George Hollingbery]

I have just a small point. I think I heard the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) say that PIP was being withdrawn after the change from DLA. I believe the hon. Lady will confirm that we are talking about the mobility component, not PIP in its entirety.

[Margaret Curran]

If I made that mistake, I am very grateful for the opportunity to correct it. We are talking about the mobility component of DLA, which will be transferred to PIP. I will come on to broader concerns about PIP later, but I thank the hon. Gentleman.

I was talking about how the Government are addressing the issue of overlap and introducing a review. I assume that part of their concern is the need for greater consistency in how funding for people who live in residential care is arranged. I put it to the Minister directly that if there needs to be greater consistency in how the transport and wider mobility needs of residents are addressed, she should issue the appropriate guidelines to care homes. Whatever she chooses to do to address the matter, it is plainly wrong and irresponsible to make victims of the residents themselves by the blanket withdrawal of a benefit to which they are legitimately entitled.

The core of the argument, which should determine how we vote today, is that the power in clause 83 is necessary only if the Government want to remove payments solely on the basis that someone lives in a residential care home. If that is not the aim, we need to change the Bill.

[Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)]

On that point, does the hon. Lady agree that under article 20 of the UN convention on the rights of persons with disabilities, on personal mobility, and article 31 of the UN convention on the rights of the child, removing the mobility component from children in residential homes may amount to a breach of the UK’s obligations in human rights conventions?

[Margaret Curran]

That is a very interesting observation, and I thank the hon. Gentleman for drawing it to the House’s attention. I know that he takes a great interest in these matters. That point gives us even more reason to argue that Members should support the amendments—they would avoid any problem of that nature.

When the Minister is not talking about “overlap” in an attempt to address the problem in question, she is talking about the need for a review. It was promised that the review, first announced earlier this year, would look into the provision of DLA mobility to those in residential care homes, which I know offered some succour to Members who were concerned about the matter. Labour Members were mildly optimistic that that was a signal that the Government were undertaking a rethink, as we know they are prepared to do when the time is right. However, we have been sadly disappointed. Although a review was launched, it has no time scale, there are no terms of reference, no review group has been established and there is no involvement for disabled people. No wonder people are confused about where the policy stands.

I remind the House that at Prime Minister’s questions on 23 March, the Prime Minister offered the Leader of the Opposition an opportunity to contribute to the review. I do not think that possibility actually exists. Have the terms of reference of the review been made public? No. Will the findings be published? No. This is not a review, it is, as the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) said, a delaying tactic to cover up a deeply flawed policy. In my wilder moments I thought it was perhaps an appeasement of some Liberal Democrat Members, because we know that their party conference overwhelmingly passed a resolution condemning the policy. The Liberal Democrats in Committee disappeared when the matter was voted on. They are here today, so I hope they will join us and help to defeat this particularly pernicious part of the Bill. I appeal to them to make their presence felt today in a way that they did not in Committee.

[Ian Paisley]

Does the hon. Lady agree that throughout all of this—no matter how it is dressed up or how Opposition Members are criticised—the policy is about doing one, well named thing? It is about making the pips squeak among the most vulnerable in our country. That is another reason why it should be opposed.

[Margaret Curran]

This is embarrassing, because hon. Members are putting the argument so much more effectively than I am.

To conclude on this section of my contribution, may I make an appeal to Members of the House? We have a moment in time. We are being watched by disabled people this afternoon, and by their organisations. This goes to the heart of what we are about. People will be prisoners in residential care and prisoners in their own homes if this provision is removed from them. Many opportunities for them will also be withdrawn. I appeal to hon. Members: let us do the right thing this evening and vote for amendment 43—I also intend, Mr Deputy Speaker, to press amendments 42 and 44 to a Division when the time comes.

I shall now discuss specific aspects of the personal independence payment that should be changed to make the new benefit fairer and more effective in giving support to those who need it, and to assist a smooth transition for existing claimants to the new benefit. Amendments 44 to 47 seek to amend clause 79 and the proposed change to the required period condition for PIP. The amendments would retain the three-month period that claimants must wait before they are eligible to receive PIP, but would extend the period over which a claimant must show that they will be with that disability from six months, as is currently the case with DLA, to nine months.

In other words, for those who have not followed every single detail of the Bill like those of us who served in Committee, like the Government intend, the Opposition would extend the current DLA required condition period from nine months to one year for PIP. However, the Opposition would extend the provision after receipt of the benefit, not at the beginning. To do otherwise would be to penalise unfairly those disabled people who need extra help associated with their disability early in their treatment.

Yet again, there is some confusion about the rationale behind the change in the waiting time for PIP. In Committee, the Minister said that the change was categorically not about savings. She clearly stated:

“I will be honest and open with my answer. I would like to reassure the hon. Lady”—

meaning me—

“that the principal aim of extending the qualifying period from three to six months is not about savings. We do not expect the measure to provide any significant savings.”––[Official Report, Welfare Reform Public Bill Committee, 10 May 2011; c. 848.]

Furthermore, I have asked the Minister in a series of written parliamentary questions what the projected savings are. Again, her Department was unable to provide any sort of answer—nor do its answers so much as allude to potential savings resulting from this policy decision—yet at Department for Work and Pensions questions on Monday, the Minister appeared to backtrack, stating that “modest” savings were now part of the reasoning for pushing ahead with the change. In her response today, will she indicate the scale of those modest savings? It is a little concerning that the rationale behind changes that will make such a big difference to the lives of many disabled people in this country is, even at this late stage, being cobbled together by the Government.

If we cannot comment on savings from the policy, we can at least discuss its impact on disabled people who require PIP to help them to meet extra costs associated with their disability. In Committee, we discussed in great detail the different conditions that are likely to require early support, so I will not go into them in great depth today unless pushed to do so.

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Lady has clearly outlined the issues in relation to the qualifying period. Is she aware, as many in the House are, that for people in poor health, it is a time of stress and anxiety? The Government are talking about increasing the qualifying period when people are under the most pressure regarding their health, so putting them under additional, financial pressure. Does she feel that such financial pressure will impact on people’s health at a time when they need less pressure and more help?

[Margaret Curran]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very strong point. The Macmillan cancer charity, which has already had an airing in the Chamber today, makes strong representations about the impact that financial worries can have on health, including leading to a deterioration in health. It is therefore especially pernicious that the Government have come forward with this policy. Cancer and stroke victims will suffer severely from this, because they can have major changes in costs very early in their conditions. Cancer and stroke victims may not be terminal, but they can still have great needs and society needs to support them in working through the terrible and difficult circumstances they are experiencing.

[Fiona O’Donnell]

Does my hon. Friend agree that this is about more than the entitlement to DLA or PIP: it is about all the other benefits that that triggers, including carer’s allowance so that a whole family can be supported through that difficult time?

[Margaret Curran]

Indeed, and for those of us who have experience of how families struggle through family illness on lower incomes, we know how important that is. We do not want to have a society in which people who are struggling with major illnesses have to worry about how they will meet their family bills.

Cancer and stroke victims usually require help early in their conditions. As of August 2010, some 195,000 people were receiving DLA for a malignant disease or a stroke-related condition. Many in this group who are of working age may well be the very individuals who will be affected by clause 79 and the decision to lengthen the qualifying period to six months.

The extra costs will vary from individual to individual, but we can safely assume that they include key criteria such as extra fuel costs, costs associated with aids, adaptations and special diets, and extra costs of washing clothes and such like.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

On the issue of extra fuel costs, one reason why the last Government—followed by this Government—said that they would not extend the winter fuel payment to those with disabilities was that it was already covered in the payments received under DLA. If the people who move on to PIP do not get those payments, they will be disadvantaged.

[Margaret Curran]

I thank my hon. Friend for that point, which reinforces why we should not accept the Government’s proposals and instead vote for this amendment. Simply to shrug aside the points that have been made or—as I suspect the Minister will argue—to pass on the obligation for meeting these costs to local authorities that are already feeling the strain of funding would be unfair and a great insult to many victims. Cancer patients are already the victims of the decision to time-limit the contributory employment and support allowance to just one year, as the Prime Minister now understands. Why should they be punished yet again at the hands of this Government when it comes to reforming DLA? We had controversy this morning about how cancer patients are being treated by this Government and now we have more concerns and more difficulties for cancer patients.

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

As it is carers week, it is also important to remember that when someone is having treatment in a hospital that may be some distance from home, there is also an impact on family members, who end up taking time off work and have to pay high travel costs. That has an impact on the whole family’s income, not just the person who is suffering the illness.

[Margaret Curran]

Indeed, and there is often an impact on the wider family, not just the immediate family.

We believe that the Government are misguided in their decision to lengthen the time disabled people must wait before they are given support. The Government are also wrong to remove automatic entitlement for certain severely disabled people who currently have the automatic right to receive the higher rate of DLA. At the moment, the severely mentally impaired—that is the language that is used—double amputees and those who are deaf-blind, undergoing haemodialysis or are severely visually impaired are automatically able to receive higher rates of DLA. Under the Bill, however, only those with a terminal illness will automatically receive PIP. Obviously I welcome the Government’s commitment to protect the terminally ill, but we believe that this obligation does not go far enough. Amendment 43 would ensure that those with a severely disabling condition, who are currently eligible for automatic entitlement, would retain that right following the introduction of PIPs.

It is important that we keep in mind the group of people whom we are talking about in the amendment. Is the Minister planning to inform the House today that an individual who is severely mentally impaired or a double amputee might not now be eligible for the higher rate of PIP? That would be quite an announcement. What reason is there to force this group of severely disabled people to undergo an assessment process of which we can all safely predict the outcome? We now know that the Government plan to spend £675 million on establishing PIP, on the bureaucracy of PIP and on the reassessment of 1.8 million working-age recipients of disability living allowance.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

Does my hon. Friend have estimates of the cost of each of these interviews that will have to take place; of how many will be unnecessary; of how many will be appealed successfully; and of the incredible stress and hardship through which individuals will be put while knowing full well that unfortunately they can never get a job or go to work, and that they will have to be in receipt of benefits in the future?

[Margaret Curran]

I am afraid that I do not have specific numbers to hand, but I will make it my business to get that information because it would be very interesting. I am sure that some organisations could help us estimate those numbers and the different categories that my hon. Friend highlighted. He outlined a common-sense approach. It makes no sense to put these people through this stress, or to add to the bureaucratic costs of administering the process, when that money should be going to the disabled people themselves.

In a time of economic restraint, I am sure that everyone on both sides of the House agrees that this is a huge amount of money to spend on administration, so we should consider opportunities to reduce the costs. It is absurd to propose reassessing conditions that will clearly be eligible for the new PIPs. I have asked how much it will cost, and I will try to get answers—perhaps the Minister can give them in her reply. If the argument for retaining automatic entitlement is rooted in the avoidance of needless assessment, it is also grounded in the goal of appeasing the anxiety of many disabled people about having to undergo reassessment for PIP eligibility. As I am sure my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) knows, one of the biggest concerns disabled people tell us about is the constant reassessments they have to undergo, despite it being obvious to everybody that they have a disability. They are needless assessments.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that problems are also created by the period disabled people have to wait before an assessment and the consequent stress and worry? They read newspapers that convince them they are not going to get the benefit, and their overall state worsens as a result of this whole exercise.

[Margaret Curran]

Yes, absolutely, and we have an opportunity here to minimise that stress and to address the problems. I strongly believe that we should take that opportunity.

[Mark Durkan]

Does the hon. Lady recognise that many people are concerned that as the costs of administering the assessments emerge and escalate, they will be met not by scaling back the arrangements, but by tightening the criteria and reducing the benefits awarded?

[Margaret Curran]

I acknowledge that many disabled people and disability organisations are extremely concerned about that, given the Government’s track record on this. We cannot underestimate or brush aside the level of anxiety of many people in this country about the reform of DLA. Many people find incredibly stressful and worrying the prospect of having to go through a new face-to-face assessment to prove their disability, despite it being abundantly clear, in order to receive help.

It is the Government’s job to assure disabled people that the introduction of PIPs—I know that the Minister tries to do this—will not mean the end of financial support for disabled people. Given the Minister’s efforts on that, I plead with the Government to go that extra mile to assure disabled people that the process is about meaningful reform of an important benefit, rather than an attempt to remove it from those whom they can get away with removing it from. One way the Government can do that is by ensuring that the most severely disabled members of our society do not face needless upheaval and uncertainty over the future of support following the introduction of PIPs.

[Stephen Lloyd]

I understand where the hon. Lady is coming from, but does she agree that the Government have made good progress by bringing in Professor Harrington to ensure that the test—which, to be honest, we inherited from the previous Government—is improved?

[Margaret Curran]

That test was introduced for the work capability assessment and the application of employment and support allowance, as the hon. Gentleman knows. Of course I acknowledge that the Minister is working with disabled people to try to ensure that the test is as effective as it can be, but I have to tell the hon. Gentleman and the Minister that most disabled people are saying that they are not satisfied. I do not think that reassurances have been given that the test is right yet. None the less, what I am talking about in this debate is automatic entitlement, which is a different issue. Even if the test were perfect, which would be very hard to achieve—we are very far from that—putting people through needless assessments, all at a cost, would still not be worth it when they are clearly disabled. Retaining automatic entitlement for severely disabled people would be a small step, but would enable the Government to send out an important signal to show that they are listening and that they get some of this. The big cry coming from disabled people is that there has been no shift from the Government and no signals, and that they do not get it.

Amendment 60, which is our final amendment in the group, would ensure that the process of reassessment will result in an orderly, careful and efficient transition for working-age claimants. As I have said before, we need to keep in mind the scale of the exercise that the Government are proposing to undertake. We are talking about reassessing 1.8 million working-age people on DLA in the space of just three years. To meet that goal, the Government would need to reassess—I can assure my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North that I do have the figures for this—roughly 600,000 people, which is 11,500 people a week or more than 2,000 a day. That is the scale of the process that disabled people will have to go through.

Given the scale and depth of concern about this issue, our amendment 60 proposes that checks and balances be written into the Bill to ensure that lessons are learnt as reform develops—we have tried to learn some of those lessons ourselves—and that the teething problems of assessment are addressed and disabled people have the confidence that reform will work for them. Amendment 60 would embrace this opportunity to send out a clear message that we will learn from mistakes in the system and iron out anomalies in the assessment before we start to assess some of the most vulnerable people currently receiving DLA, by ensuring that only new applicants are assessed first. That is what the safeguard would do. Amendment 60 is fair and proportionate. We are not saying that reassessment is wrong; we are simply saying that it needs to be done properly and carefully, and that it should be phased, with the Secretary of State playing a key role in the process to ensure clear scrutiny and accountability.

The amendments would ensure that the personal independence payment was a fairer, more effective and workable reform. As I set out in my introductory remarks, the Opposition support reform and the principles of reform; however, the Government have wasted a significant opportunity to introduce such reform. If the universal credit penalises families of disabled children by halving the support available to them; penalises severely disabled people who live alone by neglecting to replicate the severe disability premium or the personal independence payment; penalises disabled people in residential care homes by removing their DLA mobility component; penalises disabled people by making them wait six months before they receive the support that they need; and creates uncertainty and needless anxiety for the most disabled people in our society by removing their automatic entitlement to the new benefit, is it any wonder that we are opposed to this Bill?

--- Later in debate ---

[Jenny Willott]

I am about to come to my understanding of that point. Obviously, it is up to the Minister to determine her definition, and I am sure that the hon. Lady will be able to comment on what the Minister has to say later.

I am also glad that the Government have put on hold the plan to introduce this change while comprehensive research is carried out. Any decision needs to be based on solid evidence, and it has become clear that no research has been done in the past, so no such evidence has been available so far.

[Margaret Curran]

To the best of her knowledge, can the hon. Lady identify two examples of where overlap is a problem? Does she think that the review should be widened to involve disabled people? Does she also think that its findings should be published?

[Jenny Willott]

I have just made it clear that no research has been done in the past, so there has been no evidence up to now. I have absolutely no idea what evidence the Minister has found, but I am sure that she will be able to give the House more information on that and answer the hon. Lady’s question. Not being part of the research team, I cannot give the hon. Lady any examples of overlap, but I am sure that the Minister will be able to provide more information about that later.

[Margaret Curran]

May I ask you to address the second part of my question, which was about the review? There are serious concerns that the review is not being made public and that we do not know its terms of reference. I presume that you know its terms of reference, since you support the Government’s proposals. Could you perhaps explain them to the House?

[Jenny Willott]

I think she means “the hon. Lady”, rather than you, Mr Deputy Speaker. This is obviously an issue for the Minister to address later, particularly in regard to the terms of reference. I do not believe that it would have been appropriate for disabled people to take part in the research, because it is my understanding that this is an information-gathering exercise—

--- Later in debate ---

[Maria Miller]

Will the hon. Lady forgive me if I do not give way now? Perhaps if I do not cover her point, she can intervene on me later.

The hon. Member for Aberdeen South has tabled amendments 76 and 77, about how we treat fluctuating conditions. That is absolutely an important part of ensuring that we have a successful assessment. The use of the term “every time” in the Bill has caused some concern, I believe unnecessarily. I hope that I can allay her concerns about it.

Our approach will be to have two main components to the assessment. First, we will consider whether an individual is able to carry out an activity, and whether they are able to do so reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner. If they cannot, it will be considered that they cannot complete that activity at all.

Secondly, the assessment will not be a snapshot of any one day, as I am sure the hon. Lady would expect. It will consider an individual’s ability to carry out activities over a period of time—we suggest a year. It will consider impacts that apply for the majority of the time. We will determine whether somebody has met the required period condition by considering whether they would be likely to meet the requirements of the assessment if they were assessed at any point over the period in question, which will effectively create hypothetical assessments across that period. We envisage that the assessment will not consider the effects of a disability on just one day, because the same principle will apply across the whole period. That means that we will consider an extended period of time, and that we will still apply the “majority of time” test. I think she will be reassured by that. As such, individuals will be able to meet the required condition even if their disability fluctuates over the specified period. We intend to include the treatment of fluctuating conditions in the next iteration of the assessment regulations, which is due to be published in the autumn. I hope that provides some reassurance.

I turn to amendments 66, 41 and 42. We have already announced that we will not remove the mobility component of DLA from people in residential care from 2012, as originally planned. We have also said that we will re-examine its position within the personal independence payment, which is precisely what we are doing. When that work is complete we will make a final decision, in the context of the full reform of DLA and the introduction of PIP.

[Margaret Curran]

rose—

[Maria Miller]

Perhaps the hon. Lady can let me finish and see whether I have covered her point.

We will treat care home residents in exactly the same way as any other recipient of DLA. The views that have been expressed during, and in the lead-up to, today’s debate have been vigorous and made people’s positions clear. That is why we are not introducing the change in 2012 and are undertaking a review of the practical issues on the ground. We will not produce a review report, because we are not undertaking an official review. We are simply collecting information about the implementation of the policy at the moment, as I am sure Labour Members did when they were in government to inform their policy decisions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Maria Miller]

Will the hon. Lady forgive me for moving on and making some more comments?

Opposition Members will not be surprised to hear that I feel strongly that the Government have made our position clear on this matter.

[Margaret Curran]

I cannot understand this. If, as the Government say, they are not removing the DLA mobility component from people in residential care, why do they need the Bill to give them the power to do so?

[Maria Miller]

We are not doing that. We are reviewing the situation. As the hon. Lady will of course know, we need provisions in the Bill to take account of other areas of overlap within PIP—it was the same under the previous Administration—so that we do not pay certain elements of the benefit to people in various types of accommodation. Any change or refinement will be dealt with in regulations, which she will be able to view for herself.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Reid]

I had wanted to speak tonight on my concerns about the proposal not to make any personal independence payment for the first six months, but I will speak about that later. Further to what the hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) has just said, my understanding of the Government’s position is that there is an overlap, and it is perfectly correct that where an overlap has been identified we ought to have a review. It is also important to stress that we are not abolishing the mobility component for people in care homes by voting against the amendment tonight; we will be voting to give the Government the power to make regulations.

[Margaret Curran]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Reid]

I am sorry, but there is no time.

What concerns me about the Bill as it stands is that those regulations will be made by the negative procedure, which does not give Parliament the absolute right to scrutinise and vote on them. I have put my name to amendment 74, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott), which proposes that the regulations should be made by the affirmative procedure.

Oral Answers to Questions

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am glad that my hon. Friend is more welcoming of the policy than the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain). Cash protection is there to protect those whose circumstances mean that they may have lost out slightly in the change to universal credit. They will not, because we will ensure that they are smoothed into the universal credit system unless there is a significant change in their circumstances. That is a positive gesture from the Government, and as I said, we do not need any lessons from Labour Members, who did not cash-protect people who were damaged when they scrapped the 10p starting rate.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

Notwithstanding the fact that, as we have heard, the Government intend to provide transitional protection, will the Secretary of State explain why, for new claimants, their plans to abolish the disability element of child tax credit and replace it with a disability addition will mean a cut of 50% for families with disabled children? According not to Labour Members but to Family Action, that means that families with one disabled child, who are people in great need, are in line to lose £1,400 per annum. Why are disabled children bearing the costs of the Government’s welfare reforms?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I must say to the hon. Lady that they are not. Actually, our adjustments have been welcomed because they mean that more disabled people in difficult family circumstances will find themselves benefiting to a higher degree. Our changes will work well with universal credit. Also, the whole idea of bringing more disabled people into the work force has to be a good thing, or perhaps she disagrees with that.

Welfare Reform Bill (Instruction)

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Monday 9th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her contribution, and I wish to make a few comments in response. On behalf of Labour I welcome the Government’s motion, and we look forward to the full debate in Committee about the substance of their proposals. However, we are disappointed that we must have that debate in the Welfare Reform Bill Committee, because as she will be aware, a child poverty strategy has been published and there have been a number of criticisms of it. It would perhaps have been better if the commission had been set up first, to inform that strategy. I will return to that point, because that situation perhaps explains why there have been so many comments that the child poverty strategy is insubstantial. I appreciate that the substance of those comments will be featured in Committee, but if I may I wish to make one or two points about issues that the Committee will cover as it examines the Government’s proposals.

The child poverty commission was a significant element of the Child Poverty Act 2010, which received cross-party support and was regarded as a landmark piece of legislation. It was to be a commission of status and influence, which would be evidence-led, examine different approaches, engage with those with direct experience, harness the experts’ views and, as the Minister indicated, work with the devolved Administrations. I hope that when the Committee has discussed the matter, she will ensure that the commission does exactly that.

I am sure the Minister is aware of the substantial point that some child poverty organisations have made in questioning the legality of the Government’s approach to date, given the status of the 2010 Act. They say that because the child poverty strategy has been produced before the setting up of the commission, the Government are acting illegally. I hope she will address that point.

The broadest point that needs to be made is about the Government’s decision to widen the scope of the commission from purely being about child poverty to also embracing social mobility. I appreciate the substance of the argument about social mobility, policy on which underpins any Government action. Of course there are links between child poverty and social mobility, and as I understand it the commission would already have had powers to examine those links. However, the Minister will appreciate that broadening the scope of the commission so far has raised many concerns among organisations, and indeed among many Labour Members. There are links between child poverty and social mobility, but they are not the same thing. There is deep concern that including social mobility means that the commission will lose its edge and its focus on dealing with child poverty. It may well dilute the urge to tackle child poverty.

I have a number of questions to put to the Minister. Given that the matter is now going to the Welfare Reform Bill Committee, may I ask that the commission be established urgently and that there be no further delay? Once its scope has been established, it should go ahead. Will the Minister consult the devolved Administrations on their wider child poverty strategies as a matter of urgency? May we have a guarantee that commitments on child poverty will not be delayed or watered down because of the extension of the commission’s scope to social mobility?

May we have clarity on what the Government’s child poverty targets actually are? The Minister will know that the Prime Minister made a categorical and unequivocal commitment to maintaining relative poverty income measurements. Can she guarantee that that will still be central to the Government’s proposals? Finally, can she guarantee that the commission will retrospectively examine the already published child poverty strategy so that its fundamental weaknesses can be addressed and we can have an altogether more substantial plan? I appreciate that the meat of the subject will be discussed in Committee, but given that we are making a decision this afternoon on whether to enable the Committee to establish the commission, it would be very helpful if she addressed those points.

--- Later in debate ---

[Margaret Curran]

With the leave of the House, Mr Deputy Speaker, may I make one or two comments in response to the debate, and thank hon. Members for their contributions? I will not go through them all, because I might overstretch my opportunity.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) made the important point that connecting welfare and welfare measures is at the heart of tackling child poverty. I hope that when we get to the substance of the debate we examine the proposals for universal credit, which are a substantial change in the welfare system.

I always listen to my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) on these matters, and I will continue to do so. He commented on the centrality of child care, the child care proposals, and the impact of the introduction of universal credit, which is enormously significant. Regrettably, the Government have not fully clarified what will happen in respect of child care, which goes to the heart of the commission’s work. I hope that the commission examines that aspect as well.

Finally, in response to a number of points, I understand the arguments, but we cannot lose sight of the fact that defeating the scourge of child poverty is a central part of Government work. We cannot afford to lose that focus. I take the point made by the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott) on the consensus that has been established to deal with that scourge. Let us not lose that. Irrespective of other matters, we must target, measure and take action to tackle child poverty. I hope the widening of the commission’s scope will not dilute that, and I look forward to substantial and lively debates in Committee.

Oral Answers to Questions

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Monday 28th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Most people who work hard and who are on marginal incomes will consider it reasonable that the benefits system does not pay more than average earnings, which turn out to be about £36,000 gross. Most people who are in work would consider that to be a reasonable level of income. Those who complain about that complain about something that they should have resolved anyway.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

Of course, the Secretary of State will have received many representations from carers’ organisations about the Welfare Reform Bill and its likely impact. In reply to a written question I tabled last week, the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), who has responsibility for disabled people, stated that she did not yet know what impact the new personal independence payment will have on carers, yet the Bill is now in Committee and PIP will be decided in just a matter of weeks. Will the Secretary of State confirm that PIP will remain a passported benefit from carers’ allowance, how many carers will be affected by the change and how many carers will lose as a result of the changes being introduced by the Government?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I can say to the hon. Lady, much as my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary has before, that we are reviewing all of this. The purpose is to ensure that those who are involved in caring will get greater and better support and that they will be better cared for themselves. The reality is that we chose for that reason not to take carer’s allowance into the universal credit, which the hon. Lady has not touched on, because that would have meant that some people might have lost out.

Disability Living Allowance

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

I am pleased to be back in this Chamber debating this issue; I was at the earlier debate. I congratulate the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) on initiating this debate. He gave a passionate and eloquent description of the challenges in this field, and his knowledge will be of great assistance to this Parliament as we proceed. Of course, his timing is perfect, as the Second Reading of the Welfare Reform Bill takes place today. This subject includes many challenges and issues, and I am grateful to him for giving us the opportunity to focus on particular issues in this debate.

I shall say a few introductory words about welfare reform generally, but I want to focus on the mobility component of disability living allowance, particularly in relation to residential care, because the issue is of imminent importance. It presents a great challenge and is of great concern to many people. I still require much more clarity from the Government about the position, but I shall return to that, because a few hares have been set running this morning that we may need to catch.

The hon. Member for Arfon made very significant and reflective comments in relation to welfare reform. I am on record as having said during the last debate and in many of my exchanges with the Minister that I believe passionately in welfare reform. I have a background in this field and have been dealing with it for many years. Welfare reform will always be required, and we should never be frightened of it. Sometimes it is difficult. I absolutely accept that it presents challenges, because it affects so many people of great vulnerability. None the less, I have substantial criticisms of the way in which the reform has been conducted.

As the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) said, many questions are still outstanding about the reform and the impact that it will have. In particular, many disabled organisations will tell you that they are very worried about the premise of the reform. Rather than being cuts-based reform, it should be evidence-based reform. We should work with disability organisations and try to take them through this. Fundamentally, it should be based on the social model of disability, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer and other people are espousing a medical model of disability, so there are tensions in what the Government are telling us.

We are told that the driving factor behind welfare reform is simplicity. That has been mentioned today. However, if you go along with the Welfare Reform Bill as it stands, you could end up with greater complexity. I have heard this directly from disability organisations, and the hon. Member for Foyle also pointed it out. You could have children under 16 on DLA. You will have adults between 16 and 64 on PIP—the personal independence payment. Then you will have attendance allowance. Elderly people are now saying that they have to get attendance allowance even when they reach that threshold age. There is some confusion from the Government about that, but perhaps the Minister will clarify it.

There are big issues about how we are doing reform, and the Government must think carefully before they charge around telling everyone else that they must just follow suit on the reform. They cannot criticise those of us who are in favour of reform if we say, “This is not how it’s done.” Many people are saying that the reform has been rushed and not thought through and that some of the implications, if the Government go ahead, will be very far-reaching for the most vulnerable members of our society. The Government must take stock and demonstrate that they are listening to people, but a demonstration that they are listening to people has not been evidenced yet.

[Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)]

Would the hon. Lady maintain the current spending of £12.3 billion on DLA under her own model of reform? She says that she is keen to see reform, but would she keep the spending at £12.3 billion? Obviously, it will increase, but can she tell us about any proposals for what she would do?

[Margaret Curran]

I can tell the hon. Gentleman what I would not do—I would not start from the premise of a 20% cut. I would work with disability organisations under a partnership approach. We do need to manage costs. Disabled people and their organisations agree with you that we need to manage costs. We do need to look at how the budget is increasing. I would be the first to acknowledge that, but we need to do it in a completely different way from how it is being done at the moment. You should not rush at it and you should not say that your only motive is cuts. I take the point made earlier. I intended to say that I would be polite in this debate. I may not have managed that so far and I may not manage it later, either.

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Lady is always polite.

[Margaret Curran]

Thank you very much. Of course we shall be polite to one another in the House, but we must remind ourselves of the scale of the anger in the country about what is happening, particularly on the mobility component of DLA in relation to residential homes. People’s concerns are deeply felt. People are deeply worried, but there is also anger about how it is being done. We have all received representations from the voluntary sector, the charitable sector and local authorities that are confused about what is happening. The debate has also involved Members of Parliament. I had thought that it was cross-party—that it went across many parties, including the Government parties. Perhaps not, but we shall come back to that.

I have not yet heard the case for the reform. This morning, some hon. Members have said that we need to introduce the cut in relation to residential care homes because all of a sudden care homes are very confused by the funding and all of a sudden local authorities are very confused by the funding. I have not had any representations in all my time as a Member of the Scottish Parliament or in my time in this Parliament about that confusion. It seems to me that yet another argument is being put forward for why we are doing this.

I have asked the Minister a parliamentary question about how many people have advocated the change to the Government. How many people have gone to the Government and said, “This is a real problem and it needs to be sorted out”? I have not had an answer yet. Perhaps the Minister could give me an answer later today.

Many interesting points have been made in the debate. We have been given individual examples by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David). We heard from the hon. Member for the secret garden—I do not know whether I can call him that. I am referring to the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry), who also talked about the secret garden of policy in the previous debate. He has raised many significant questions that have still to be answered.

Perhaps the most substantial point came from the hon. Member for Arfon, who said that the mobility component of DLA for people in residential care is about normalisation. I have not heard any Government Member be able to challenge that. You do not give that payment to an institution; you give it to the person so that the person can make their own personal choices. With the greatest respect, ironing out the so-called overlap or trying to ensure that you give it to a care home does not address that fundamental point. That is the issue—the payment goes to the person.

Let me establish a few of the facts. Some 80,000 people are affected by the cut, and it is a cut. It represents a saving of £160 million. I fundamentally believe that it is driven by the need for that saving. It will affect not only people living in residential care homes, but young people in residential schools. I accept the comments made about the Minister. They were very flattering and positive, and I am sure that they are all true. I also welcome the review. However, I am not as optimistic as some people are that somehow we are going to see a change. Therefore, I would like to ask the Minister a few questions about the review. Who is involved in the review? What is being considered? Do you have on the agenda the option of completely cancelling the cut?

[Philip Davies (in the Chair)]

Order. May I gently remind the hon. Lady to refer to people in the third person, rather than dragging me into the debate?

[Margaret Curran]

I apologise, Mr Davies. I will not drag you into the debate. I am referring to the Minister. I would be grateful if she could outline the parameters of the review. Is there any possibility that the cut could be cancelled as a result of the review? Will she clarify that?

As other hon. Members have said, a document has today been published by 40 organisations in the sector, which represent a vast swathe of opinion in this field. Those very credible organisations have told us that the Government’s arguments have shifted eight times. I think that they will need to issue another document, because I think that there has been another shift in the argument. I say that because the “road map” has been presented to us today. Somehow that is the solution to the cut; everything will be solved by a road map. As long as people know exactly where the funding is coming from, all will be solved. I think that that is fundamentally wrong and I hope that we are not seeing yet another attempt to explain an unjustifiable cut. The cut is wrong. It should be off the agenda now. We have the opportunity in the Welfare Reform Bill to ensure that that is the case. Labour will be arguing very strongly that we reject the cut. We need to ensure that we continue to give people in residential homes the personal independence that they have now. That should be maintained. That is what the Government should be doing.

--- Later in debate ---

[Maria Miller]

The hon. Lady will know that it is absolutely our intention to make changes so that the new PIP assessment supports people with long-term conditions. That is the—[Interruption.] I cannot possibly comment on something reported in the media that I do not have sight of. It is probably easier for me to get back to the hon. Lady to clarify the point than to debate it today.

As part of the wider DLA reform, we have looked at how the mobility component affects people in care homes. As many hon. Members have indicated, we discovered that, much like DLA, the mobility element is characterised by a lot of uncertainty and red tape, and my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) picked up on that extremely well. Like him, I have talked to care homes, and every one I have been to has had a different experience of trying to tackle what is one of the most fundamental issues for disabled people—how to get about. That is driving me to make sure that we not only reform DLA correctly, but ensure that people living in our care homes get the support that they need.

When it comes to determining care homes’ duties and contractual obligations, the interpretation is very wide. It is not that people thought it was all rosy in the garden in the past, as the hon. Member for Glasgow East perhaps implied, because there is long-term concern about the lack of clarity over these obligations. There has been almost a sticking-plaster, pragmatic approach to trying to ensure that disabled people, who are some of the most vulnerable people in our community, get the support that they need. The situation has not been helped by an array of very different legal duties and contractual responsibilities, which mean that service providers and residents are unclear in practice about where responsibility lies. Indeed, the hon. Lady might pick that up if she talks to even more of her constituents.

My hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) picked up on this issue in his contribution. I do not pretend to be able to give him answers to all his questions, but part of the problem is that responsibility for provision of mobility is spread across at least three separate pieces of legislation in a not entirely consistent manner. That is one of the issues that I will be looking at. We have the Health and Social Care Act 2008 (Regulated Activities) Regulations 2010. We also have the 2008 Act itself, which deals with the registration of care homes. It includes a clear obligation on care homes to promote independence, and mobility is part of that. There is also an important role for the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992, which makes it clear that local authorities should not take account of DLA when assessing people’s needs. All those things mean that care homes and local authorities have a complex set of measures to deal with. The previous Government could have taken time to provide more joined-up thinking on the issue, and we have put our efforts and energies into dealing with the issue.

[Margaret Curran]

Will the Minister give way?

[Maria Miller]

If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I am trying to reply to as many points as I can. Perhaps she can raise any points that she has separately with me.

I have been told of cases where DLA payments have not been passed on to the person who should have been in receipt of them. As hon. Members will know, that is a serious offence. Some people have told me that they are having to pay charges for basic services in care homes, which should, by rights, be freely available. I am sorry if all that is anecdotal, but it paints a worryingly consistent picture of arrangements that are no way to ensure the best support for the most vulnerable people in our society, no way to ensure accountability and no way to ensure the best value for disabled people or taxpayers. In short, the situation is really unsatisfactory.

As much as the hon. Lady may not agree, it is my job as Minister with responsibility for disabled people to stand up and speak about these things and to ensure that we get some action. I want a far clearer approach in the future, so that disabled people everywhere in the country can know what they can reasonably expect. That was one of the issues that was usefully raised in the “Don’t limit mobility” report. Only with a clearer approach will we achieve the outcome that all hon. Members present want.

In the remaining couple of minutes, let me move on to some of the detailed points that I hope to cover. The hon. Member for Arfon raised a number of issues, but he focused particularly on budgets. It might be useful for hon. Members to know that when we talk about the DLA budget, we are talking about ensuring that we keep control of the growth in it. The expenditure that we are talking about for the future will be the same as we had last year for DLA, after a 30% increase in the number of people claiming DLA over the past eight years. I hope that that reassures hon. Members that we are not talking about the sort of swingeing cuts that have been painted by some less responsible Members, but just trying to ensure that the rapid growth that we have seen is brought under some control.

The hon. Gentleman also raised important issues about the application process. Let me reassure him that this will not involve a medical test, but an objective test built on the social model of understanding the barriers that people face when they have disabilities that they need to cope with. He raised a number of other issues, including, in particular, eligibility after 65, and I assure him that the personal independence payment will continue past retirement, as long as an individual continues to be entitled to it. If I have not picked up any of the issues that the hon. Gentleman has raised, I am sure that my officials will ensure that I write to him.

The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) raised a number of extremely important issues, some of which I have already covered. He also mentioned children, and I draw his attention to the report that my Department is doing with the Department for Education. It looks at how my Department will assess children in future in conjunction with the DFE, rather than putting children through multiple assessments, as at present.

My hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy made an important contribution. I agree with his characterisation of the situation as chaotic. I will make sure that I get back to him about our communications with the Welsh Assembly and about the importance of making the work capability assessment available in a way that is consistent with legislation on the Welsh language.

My hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Duncan Hames) made a number of important and constructive suggestions, and I thank him for that. I will perhaps talk to him separately.

In an important intervention, my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Mr Brine) reiterated the importance of treating people as individuals. I am sure that he, too, will welcome the commitment to personalisation given by the Minister with responsibility for these issues in the Department of Health—

Oral Answers to Questions

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Monday 14th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

Will the Minister specifically address the comparison with hospitals, which was quite wrong and has been described by the Disability Alliance as “offensive”? The cut would produce a saving equivalent to less than one sixth of the bankers’ bonuses about to be handed out at RBS. Will she think again about this cut, or do we have another lady who’s not for turning?

[Maria Miller]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question—I think. I would reiterate the point that I made earlier, which is that the changes to disability living allowance finances that we are talking about would mean keeping expenditure the same as it was last year, after eight years of a 30% increase. Overall, she has to keep that in mind. What we will do is ensure that we remove any expenditure overlaps, as she would expect us to do, and as I had hoped the previous Government would do.

Housing Benefit (Scotland)

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Tuesday 8th February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Gregg McClymont]

My hon. Friend raises a very good point. There clearly is, broadly speaking, a real pressure on HMOs. That is one area in which policies, as I am sure the Minister will agree, can have interactions and unintended consequences that lead to deleterious outcomes for vulnerable individuals.

I was saying that there are parents who are working-age social tenants who will fall foul of the limit on payments for working-age tenants who are deemed to be under-occupying. However, we know that no social landlord deliberately puts people into properties that are too large for them. The Government believe that a negative financial incentive will lead social landlords to manage their properties more efficiently. My concern is that that outcome is not guaranteed. It seems likely that that choice could harm existing tenants whose circumstances have changed: the bereaved, the divorced or those whose children have left home.

A similar negative financial incentive is being introduced for the long-term unemployed to move home to seek work. The Government will penalise the unemployed by cutting their housing benefit entitlement by 10% once they have been unemployed for a year. That cut will apply even to those who are actively seeking work. It could affect almost 300 jobseeker’s allowance claimants in my constituency alone, and I am sure that it will affect many more in some of my hon. Friends’ constituencies.

The problem—again, I am sure that the Minister will agree—is that it is not easy at the moment to find work anywhere in the country, and Scotland has a particular problem. It is a harsh reality that at the end of last year there were four people chasing every job vacancy in Scotland, and there are few signs, so far at least, of that ratio improving.

My local YMCA, which I have spoken with recently, deals every week with cases of young people who are out of work and out of a home. Those are the most vulnerable young people.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

On the issue of young people leaving home and perhaps not having a home, I appreciate that my hon. Friend is not from the same city as I am, but is he aware of a report by Glasgow city council, which has assessed the impact of the housing benefit reforms and calculated that there could be a loss of £8.5 million to homelessness services? That would have an impact not only on homeless people themselves, but on the regeneration of the city of Glasgow, which we have done much work to improve. Does my hon. Friend agree that whatever the Government do to tackle housing benefit, that should not exacerbate the problem of homelessness, which we have made great strides to deal with?

[Gregg McClymont]

I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. She raises a very good point about Glasgow in particular, although I should say that I do consider myself a Glaswegian. Cumbernauld is not very far away. However, although I may consider myself a Glaswegian, Glaswegians may have a different view.

Every week, my local YMCA deals with young people who are out of a home and out of a job. Those are the most vulnerable young people. Many are unable even to provide the right documentation to make an initial claim for housing benefit within the narrow window open to them. Those are often young people with psychological and dependency problems, coming from difficult family backgrounds. Things that we find easy are sometimes difficult for people in a vulnerable situation.

The YMCA and other local charities tell me that the cut to housing benefits for JSA claimants will leave the young unemployed at greater risk of falling into rent arrears if they do find a place to live. I know that Ministers say that they want to encourage the unemployed to move to different areas to find work, but the Government underestimate perhaps the social, cultural and psychological challenges that are sometimes involved in that process.

Benefit Entitlements (Joanna Cranfield)

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Tuesday 11th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Miller)]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Southend West (Mr Amess) for bringing to the attention of the House the achievements of his constituent Joanna Cranfield. By securing the debate, he has been able to shed light on her remarkable achievements as a role model for young people in this country through her work as a swimmer. I recognise many of the challenges that disabled people can face, and that is what makes Miss Cranfield a truly remarkable young lady. I am sure that all hon. Members will join me in wishing her every success as she aims to compete in the pool at the 2012 Paralympics. It seems that she has achieved such successes thanks not only to her talent but to the support of her family, and we should recognise that.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

I should perhaps have intervened on the hon. Member for Southend West (Mr Amess). I am not sure whether his constituent Miss Cranfield will be representing England or Scotland. If it is England, may I say that Scotland also recognises her great achievements and truly wishes her well?

[Maria Miller]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention, which was well timed and well made.

However much we hope that Miss Cranfield will succeed in her sporting ambitions, I hope that hon. Members here this evening will understand that I cannot intervene to ask for any individual to be treated differently. Systems are in place to ensure that support is given fairly, and if an individual disagrees with a decision about the support they are awarded, they are given the opportunity to challenge it and ask for an independent appeal process to be undertaken.

The fact that this debate has been initiated illustrates a key concern about the disability living allowance and the widespread misunderstanding of how it is assessed. DLA is paid on the basis of the particular effects that a disability has on a person’s care or mobility needs in line with the Government’s very real commitment to the social model of disability. DLA is not paid because of a specific health condition. That approach enables decision makers who decide whether awards are made to take account of what can often be a complex set of health conditions that an individual may need to manage; my hon. Friend outlined the very complex set of conditions that his constituent faces.

I would like hon. Members to be aware that very important safeguards are in place to ensure that each case gets treated fairly on its merits. Such safeguards have been available to Miss Cranfield, although I am sure that hon. Members will understand that I cannot comment on the details of her case on the Floor of the House. When an award is made, people who are unhappy with a decision are fully entitled to have their assessment reconsidered by a different decision maker. That provides an opportunity for the case to be looked at afresh. If, after that review, an individual still feels that their case has not been treated in a satisfactory manner, they can ask for the decision to be considered by an independent appeal tribunal consisting of three members: a legally qualified chairman, a doctor and a person who has experience of the issues faced by disabled people, who may indeed themselves be disabled.