House of Lords: Size

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to reduce the size of the House of Lords.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, as I said yesterday, the Government are committed to working with others in your Lordships’ House to address the question of its size. Noble Lords will no doubt be aware that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister wrote to the Lord Speaker on 20 February to set out the Government’s position in more detail, and a copy of that letter is in the Library of the House.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)]

I thank the Minister for his reply and for his response to the PNQ yesterday, which helpfully set out a number of points. Bearing in mind his reassurances then, does he recognise that there was widespread surprise and dismay about the timing and number of the appointments? Given the very widespread support in the House for the Burns report and its recommendations, does he agree that although “one in, two out” is a useful yardstick, the quicker we can get down to the Burns target of 600, the greater the respect in which this House will be held as a self-regulating body?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble and right reverend Lord’s Question no longer has the sparkle it had when he tabled it on Friday as a Topical Question. Indeed, it is the 15th question on the composition of the House that I have answered in the past week—or to be more accurate, it is the 15th question I have been asked.

In response to the noble and right reverend Lord, who was a member of the Wakeham commission and spoke in support of the Burns proposals in the debate in December, I say that it is time for us to move on from the adversarial position we had yesterday. I apologise and ask for absolution for any role I may have played in that. We need to put behind us the announcement, which was a legacy issue, as the noble Lord, Lord Butler, said, and address ourselves to the question posed yesterday by the noble Lord, Lord Burns, which the noble and right reverend Lord has just mentioned; namely, the time has come to arrive at an understanding for the system of arrivals and departures from the House between now and the end of this Parliament, within the framework—if not necessarily to the letter—of the report of the noble Lord, Lord Burns. As some noble Lords said in the debate on Tuesday, if we do not do this ourselves, somebody will do it to us.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Grocott]

I gently suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Young, that he would not be answering 15 questions if he could give us one answer. The answer that I would like him to give us is the one that was presented by the Burns report, which has been largely accepted by the House, and indeed implicitly by the Government; that is, the completely anomalous position of having 92 protected places while trying to reduce the size of the House, so that, following last week’s vacancy caused by the retirement of Earl Baldwin, this House will be by law obliged—against its policy—to replace that exiting Peer with a new Peer. If the Minister will simply answer yes to my question of whether the Government will put an end to that anomaly, I guarantee that he will not get any more questions from me.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

There are, however, many others who might fill the gap. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, was the first to admit that his Bill would have but a marginal impact on the size of the House, which is the subject of this debate, dependent as it is on the mortality of the hereditary Peers—none of us would wish to see that accelerated. So far as his Bill is concerned, as I said when he asked a question last week, unusually we have offered additional time to him. There will be another Friday when he can take the Bill forward and I have made it absolutely clear that the Government will not obstruct it. It is up to him and the House to make progress with the additional time that we will make available.

[Lord Garel-Jones]

My Lords, if memory serves me right, I believe that Jeremy Corbyn gave an undertaking that, if elected leader of the Labour Party, he would not nominate any new Peers. If that is the case, can my noble friend the Minister speculate on what might have led him to change his mind?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Young of Cookham]

Certainly, one positive outcome from the announcement last Thursday was that Jeremy Corbyn recognised that the House, as at present constituted, has a role to play in holding the Government to account and refreshing its membership. My noble friend is right that when Mr Corbyn was campaigning to be leader in 2015, he pledged:

“I don’t think there should be any more appointments to the House of Lords”.


When pressed as to whether he would appoint new Labour Peers as Labour leader, he said:

“I see no case for it”.


I am delighted that sensible heads on the Benches opposite me have persuaded him to change his mind and help refresh those Benches. Speaking personally, I hope that at some point in the future Alan Johnson and Jack Straw might join us.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree with the Institute for Government this morning that Andrew Tyrie cannot be an independent chair of the Competition and Markets Authority and take the Government whip? Will he suggest that he should follow the precedent of the noble Lord, Lord Currie of Marylebone, and sit as a Cross-Bencher?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

Andrew Tyrie was a robustly independent-minded chair of the Treasury Select Committee in the last Parliament and regularly held the Government to account. I spoke to him this morning and I can confirm that he will be sitting as a non-affiliated Peer. I gather that if you want to join the Cross Benches, you have to do a period of quarantine if you have been a member of a party. Since he took up the job as chair of the CMA, he will sit as a non-affiliated Peer and therefore not be in receipt of the Conservative whip.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the original Question from the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, asked what plans the Government have to reduce the size of the House. As illuminating and entertaining as the Minister’s answers always are—they are very enjoyable—I have not yet heard the Government’s plans. Given that the only sensible, credible plan on the table is that of the noble Lord, Lord Burns, and his committee, and that other parties have agreed that if the Government abide by its terms then we will too, is that not the plan which the Government have to accept and move forward on?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The Prime Minister set out the Government’s plans in her four-page letter to the Lord Speaker dated 20 February, which I referred to. There are two basic elements. One is restraint on appointments; the Prime Minister has said that she will sign up to it and I think that she has already shown that. The other is to take forward the work which the noble Lord, Lord Burns, referred to yesterday. The Government are prepared to play their part in those discussions as the Burns committee continues its work.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

Rather than the Government just being prepared to play their part, is there not a part for the Leader of the House to play in bringing together the leaders of the other groups? Does the Minister not agree—indeed, he pointed this out acutely yesterday—that relying on retirements and, even more so, on deaths produces an unfair and disproportionate result between the parties? If we are to succeed by our own volition in reducing the size of the House, we need the leaders of those groups to come together and agree on a fair formula so to do.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Baroness makes a powerful case. The Government will play our part, within the framework of the Burns committee recommendations, in getting the size of the House down. That committee has now been reconvened and the Government will listen carefully to any proposal that it makes. We are anxious to play our part in reducing the size of the House. As I have said before, and without wishing to be provocative, we have led the way, in promoting retirements from our Benches.

House of Lords: Membership

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Monday 21st May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, as I was looking forward to telling the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, tomorrow in response to a topical Question that he tabled on Friday, the Government are committed to working with others in your Lordships’ House to address its size. Noble Lords will no doubt be aware that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister wrote to the Lord Speaker on 20 February to set out the Government’s position in more detail, and a copy of that letter is in the Library of the House.

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for answering the Question—I am his most fervent admirer; he once described us as two herbivores in a world of carnivores—but I am surprised that the Leader of the House is not in her place to answer a Question on a matter on which she is clearly and supremely accountable to the House.

When the Labour Party left office in 2010 as a majority Government, Labour had 26 more Peers than the Conservatives. Now, as a minority Government, the Conservatives have 63 more Peers than Labour—more than twice as many—and the Prime Minister has just published a list of Peers with three times as many Conservatives on it as Labour. Does the noble Lord agree that this is a clear and flagrant breach of the constitution? Why does he think it justified for the Conservatives to have 63 more Peers than Labour? When the Prime Minister said that Brexit was about “taking back control”, did she mean the Conservative Party seizing control of the state in the interest of the Conservative Party alone?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

As the noble Lord will know, I have been answering questions about the composition of the House of Lords for some time; that is why I am in my place answering this one. On his main point, there is no constitutional concept that there has to be some degree of parity between the main opposition and government parties in your Lordships’ House. The Prime Minister has shown commendable restraint; it is the smallest Dissolution Honours List since 1979. If one looks at the number of Peers who have retired, one sees that 50% of those retiring from the political groups have been Conservatives. Even with these new appointments, my party will represent only 31% of your Lordships’ House. I do not agree with the accusation made by the noble Lord about unfairness.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, this House has already accepted the principle of reducing its size. On 20 February, the Prime Minister’s letter to the Lord Speaker regarding the Burns report described the current list as a legacy issue but said that in any future appointments she would,

“allocate them fairly, bearing in mind the results of the last general election and the leadership shown by each party in terms of retirements”.

In fairness, I suggest that it should be about departures whether by retirement, resignation or by those who have died. On these Benches, we have lost 12 colleagues since the last election, more than any other group in your Lordships’ House. The Burns report recommended that the appointment of Peers should reflect departures—two out, just one in—and better reflect the votes at the previous election. I have been clear that we are ready for that, including all departures and appointments since the 2017 election. When will the Government genuinely make the same commitment?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

So far as reducing the size of the House is concerned, if one puts on one side the appointments which the Prime Minister inherited from David Cameron and the hereditary Peers by-election, there have been 59 departures and 21 appointments since she became Prime Minister. That is well within the two-out, one-in ratio recommended by the noble Lord, Lord Burns. So far as representation is concerned, my party got 42% of the votes and we have 31% of the membership of your Lordships’ House. Compared with some other parties, I maintain that my party is still underrepresented in your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, if the Burns report is to be implemented, it is crucial that the Prime Minister follows its proposals when making appointments. The letter from the Prime Minister to which the noble Lord referred simply says that she will operate with restraint and allocate peerages fairly. Could he encourage her to give a firmer commitment to the Burns principle if he wishes other parties to support it going forward with the same degree of enthusiasm as we have in the past?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

With respect, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has exercised restraint. I note that in the 2010 Dissolution Honours List, Nick Clegg insisted on 11 former Lib Dems becoming Peers, so there was not much restraint then. So far as going forward is concerned, the Prime Minister has made it absolutely clear that there will be no more automatic peerages. As I have said, if your Lordships look at the number of Peers appointed since she became Prime Minister, the House is now smaller than it was then so she is on track to deliver that commitment. What we are still waiting for is some retirements from the Liberal Democrats.

[Lord Burns (CB)]

My Lords, over the weekend the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, tweeted that the Lord Speaker had welcomed the composition of the new list. He clearly did not read what the Lord Speaker actually said; the only thing he welcomed was the Prime Minister’s ongoing commitment to restraint in appointing new Peers, which provides such a contrast with her recent predecessors. As the Minister has pointed out, the 21 life Peers appointed since the last election is the smallest number of appointees in the first year of a Parliament for perhaps 40 years. Does he agree that what is important now is to arrive at an understanding for departures and appointments for the remainder of this Parliament and, furthermore, that this should be closely in line with the framework set out in the report of the Lord Speaker’s committee, which was overwhelmingly welcomed by the Members of this House?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am grateful to the noble Lord not just for his helpful intervention but for the work which he and his committee have put in. I understand that he is continuing that work. Yes, I did read the comments made by the Lord Speaker, as reported in the press, and my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has shown restraint. Tony Blair appointed 374 new Peers—including the noble Lord, Lord Adonis—David Cameron appointed 245 and Gordon Brown appointed 34, so two years in the Prime Minister has indeed shown some restraint and I think that we are on track. The noble Lord set out targets for the individual parties to reach by 2022, and those are challenging targets. As I indicated a week ago, some groups and parties within the House are making progress but not all of them.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

On the subject of fairness, raised by the Liberal Front Bench, if the political parties were represented according to the results at the last general election, will my noble friend indicate how many of the Liberals would have to leave this House?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I do not have the mental capacity or the bandwidth to work that out. Fifty? Sixty? Any advance on sixty? [Laughter.] I notice some jostling for position on the Liberal Benches. I am sure that by the time the House rises someone will have worked out the exact proportion and how many Liberal Democrats ought to go.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

I think the noble Lord, Lord Young, will find himself on pretty thin ice if he is suggesting that there has been some kind of fairness between the two major parties over the last couple of decades and the last few Prime Ministers. I remind him that when Labour came into office in 1997, with a majority of around 170 in the House of Commons, it had a deficit of around 250 to 300 in comparison with the Tory representation in this House, and it took nine years, until 2006, until Labour even became the biggest party in the Lords. They of course were the only nine years in the Lords’ history when the Labour Party has been the biggest party. It took the Tories just four years after 2010 to reassert their traditional position of being the biggest party in this House irrespective of the results of general elections. So the Minister needs to be a bit more cautious in talking about the peerage-awarding powers of Prime Ministers when Labour has been at such a massively consistent disadvantage.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I take the noble Lord’s point, but the base from which the two parties were starting in 1997 and 2010 were totally different. That is why it took the Labour Party longer to catch up.

Building Regulations and Fire Safety: Government Response

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Thursday 17th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made today by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State in the other place. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, with permission, I would like to make a Statement on the publication of Dame Judith Hackitt’s final report following her Independent Review of Building Regulations and Fire Safety. Honourable and right honourable Members will be aware that my predecessor and the then Home Secretary asked Dame Judith to carry out this review following the Grenfell Tower fire. We are approaching one year on from that tragic event, and those affected are firmly in our minds. I met some of the bereaved and survivors as soon as I could after I was appointed. This strengthened my determination to ensure that they continue to receive the support they need and to ensure that we learn from this tragedy so nothing like this can ever happen again. With this in mind, Dame Judith was asked to undertake her review of the existing system as part of a comprehensive response to the fire. I want to pay tribute to Dame Judith and all those who contributed to this important report.

The report’s publication is a watershed for everyone who has a stake in ensuring that the people living in buildings like Grenfell Tower are safe—and feel safe. Dame Judith is clear that the current system—developed over many years and successive Governments—is not fit for purpose. She is calling for major reform and a change of culture, with the onus more clearly on everyone involved to manage the risks they create at every stage, and government doing more to set and enforce high standards. This Government agree with that assessment and support the principles behind the report’s recommendations for a new system. We agree with the call for greater clarity and accountability over who is responsible for building safety during the construction, refurbishment and ongoing management of high-rise homes.

The Hackitt review has shown that in too many cases, people who should be accountable for fire safety have failed in their duties. In future, the Government will ensure that those responsible for a building must demonstrate that they have taken decisive action to reduce building safety risks and will be held to account. We agree that the system should be overseen by a more effective regulatory framework, including stronger powers to inspect high-rise buildings and sanctions to tackle irresponsible behaviour. We agree that there should be no buck-passing between different parts of the industry and that everyone needs to work together to change the system and, crucially—given the concerns raised following the Grenfell tragedy—we agree that residents must be empowered with relevant information. They must be able to act to make their homes safer.

This review has implications for government as a whole. I am committing today to bring forward legislation that delivers meaningful and lasting change and gives residents a much stronger voice in an improved system of fire safety. Changing the law will take time. But, as Dame Judith acknowledges, we can—and must—start changing the culture and practice right now. As a first step, we are asking everyone involved to have their say on how we can achieve this by contacting us by the end of July. Their response will inform a more detailed Statement to the House in the autumn on how we intend to implement the new regulatory system. I will also update the House on progress before the Summer Recess.

We all have a role to play. For our part, this Government have accepted and have been implementing the recommendations that relate to us since Dame Judith published her interim report in December. First, we are consulting on significantly restricting or banning the use of “desktop studies” to assess cladding systems. Inappropriate use of desktop studies is unacceptable and I will not hesitate to ban them if the consultation—which closes on 25 May—does not demonstrate that they can be used safely.

Secondly, we are working with industry to clarify building regulations fire safety guidance, and I will publish this for consultation in July. Let me be clear: the cladding believed to be on Grenfell Tower was unlawful under existing building regulations. It should not have been used. But I will ensure that there is no room for doubt over what materials can be used safely in the cladding of high-rise residential buildings. Having listened carefully to concerns, the Government will consult on banning the use of combustible materials in cladding systems on high-rise residential buildings. Thirdly, we will work with the industry to make the wider suite of building regulations guidance more user friendly. All of this continues our work to ensure that people are safe.

Since the Grenfell tragedy, my department has worked with fire and rescue services, local authorities and landlords to identify high-rise buildings with unsafe cladding, ensure that interim measures are in place to reduce risks, and give building owners clear advice about what they need to do, over the longer term, to make buildings safe. In addition, I am issuing a direction today to all local housing authorities to pay particular regard to cladding-related issues when reviewing housing in their areas.

Remediation work has started on two-thirds of buildings in the social housing sector, and we have called on building owners in the private sector to follow the example set by the social sector and not pass costs on to leaseholders. I find it outrageous that some private sector landlords have been slow to co-operate with us on this vital work. I am calling on them to do the right thing. If they do not, I am not ruling anything out at this stage.

As the Prime Minister announced yesterday, the Government will fully fund the removal and replacement of potentially dangerous cladding by social landlords, with costs estimated at £400 million. This will ensure that they can focus their efforts on making ACM cladding systems safe for the buildings they own. We want to allocate this funding for remediation as soon as possible and will announce more details shortly, including how we will encourage landlords to continue to pursue other parties for costs where they are responsible or at fault. We will also continue to offer financial flexibilities for local authorities which need to undertake essential fire safety work.

We must create a culture that truly puts people and their safety first, inspires confidence and, yes, rebuilds public trust. Dame Judith’s review and the significant changes that will flow from it are important first steps, helping us ensure that when we say ‘never again’, we mean it. I commend this Statement to the House”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, I associate myself with the remarks of both the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, in relation to this terrible tragedy and the need to make sure that it never occurs again.

I should start by declaring that between 2010 and 2012 I was the Minister with responsibility for building regulations.

I very much welcome the report and I welcome the Government’s endorsement of its recommendations. We share the Secretary of State’s commitment to making sure that they are brought into force as quickly as possible. In that respect, my first point is to raise with the Minister the following phrase in the Statement:

“Changing the law will take time”.


When will the primary legislation that the Secretary of State has promised be introduced? We know that there is a legislative logjam further in the system. Can the Minister give us an assurance that this legislation will vault over that logjam and reach this House and the other place in good time for an early introduction and passage through the parliamentary system?

Secondly, does the Minister recognise that in fact the Secretary of State already has powers to start the process? The Building Act 1984 was amended by the Sustainable and Secure Buildings Act 2004 to provide a power requiring a nominated person to be appointed for each building project to sign off on building regulation compliance. That power is not yet in force but it would produce what the Hackitt report calls a “dutyholder”. That can be introduced now by statutory instrument and could be in force by October this year. Changing the law does not always have to take time, and I hope that the Minister will undertake to press his colleagues in the department to get on and make sure that this simple, straightforward introduction of a duty holder takes priority and does not get stuck in the legislative logjam.

The Hackitt review rightly outlined the dysfunctional and fragmented nature of the construction industry and identified a culture of cost-cutting and corner-cutting at the expense of good quality, good safety and common sense. I want the Minister to recognise that it is not just fire regulations in high-rise buildings that have been the victim of, or bypassed by, that cost-cutting, corner-cutting approach. Buying a new house in 2018 is like buying a new car was in the 1960s, with complaints very high and quality standards very low. Will the Government learn from this review and make sure not only that compliance with the right fire regulations is automatic in future but compliance with the full range of measures in building regulations, all of which are aimed at saving life, promoting the health and well-being of the buildings’ occupants, and delivering a long-term, sustainable environment?

Finally, I welcome the Government’s £400 million allocation for social housing repairs to cladding. I want to press the Minister on this, as I did the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, last week: is it not time to give a similar “pay now, recover costs later” pledge to tenants and leaseholders living in privately owned high-rise flats? Surely they are just as deserving of living in safe homes as anybody living in social housing.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, I endorse the moving words of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, at the beginning of his remarks. Like him, I listened to a survivor on the “Today” programme emphasising his very strong view that we should ban the use of combustible materials. I know that, as we consult on that option, a number of professional bodies, as well as survivors, will strongly endorse that suggestion.

The noble Lord may not have had time to read the whole of the Hackitt review but there is an interesting section on resident empowerment, regular safety reviews, improved communication with residents and a duty holder —as was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Stunell. It recommends that, where there is an unsatisfactory response from the freeholder, there should be an opportunity to leapfrog over the freeholder to an independent body with powers to intervene.

The noble Lord will know that £400 million has been allocated to local authorities to compensate them for the costs of remediation. Both noble Lords raised the issue of leaseholders. In many cases, the leaseholders are also the freeholders because they have used the legislation to enfranchise themselves, so it is no good telling them to get the money from the freeholder because it is a circular discussion. I was interested in the noble Lord’s suggestion that local authorities might intervene to underwrite in some way the costs of remediation. Discussions are continuing at a ministerial level about the problems facing private sector leaseholders. We hope that, where it is possible, freeholders will follow the example of Barratt, which has, I think, undertaken in one case to pay for remediation itself and not pass the cost on to leaseholders. Where practical, we would encourage other freeholders to do the same.

The noble Lord asked whether the recommendations could apply beyond high-rise buildings. Many recommendations—on changing the culture and on ownership of risk, for example—apply to the wider construction industry and not just to high rise. There is read-across there.

The Government place a high priority on public safety, and the legislation involved is quite extensive. Dame Judith suggests establishing a new body—the joint competent authority or JCA—combining powers from the Health and Safety Executive and building standards departments. There are other legislative changes also. We want to consult and we want to get it right. The Secretary of State will make a progress report before the Summer Recess and again in the autumn on how we are taking forward the legislative consequences from this report.

I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, said towards the end of his remarks. The culture should filter through not just to fire safety but to the whole range of building regulations. Dame Judith wants what she calls an outcomes-based strategy—where people assume responsibility for risks and do not shield themselves behind prescriptive solutions and try to game them, to use her words.

Finally, to pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, we are considering whether any of the current powers could be used to take forward Dame Judith’s vision. I think I put the Building Act 1984 on the statute book in an earlier capacity, and I am delighted to learn that those powers are still relevant. We are inviting people to contact us with views on how we implement the review, which will include using existing powers where they are available.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, we are all deeply concerned that this should not happen again and I welcome what the Minister has read out. In particular, I hope the Government will give a clear indication that the banning of combustible materials is something they would like to do. We have to have a consultation, but, given our debate yesterday on why it is important to make clear in any consultation where the Government believe the future should be, it is important that the Government are very clear about this.

Does my noble friend accept that Dame Judith’s report clearly highlights that inspection and enforcement have a big role to play, and failed in this case? Therefore, I hope I am not extending it too far to say that there is a fundamental problem with the building regulations in general. We have to recognise that building regulations are not being met by new housebuilders, for example, because they are not inspected and the regulations are not enforced. In my view, this is a clarion call to review the way in which inspection and enforcement take place. I hope the Government will say that this is not just about fire safety but about all the other regulations we have passed, which should be enforced. I suppose I ought to declare my interest as chairman of the climate change committee. This is a real issue for us, because we cannot get the enforcement we need for new buildings.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am grateful to my noble friend, himself a former Secretary of State at the Department of the Environment with responsibility for building regulations. The Hackitt review has recommended what she calls “gateways”—steps that must be fulfilled before the next stage in the construction process can happen, from design, to planning, to completion. On inspection, there is an interesting section in the report about approved inspectors, where Dame Judith sees a perceived conflict of interest and recommends some changes. On regular inspection, there is a recommendation that high-rise buildings should be inspected rigorously at least every five years for safety. On resources for the planning regime, my noble friend will know that we have recently increased the fees that planning authorities may charge with the increase being ring-fenced for actions such as enforcement.

I should have said in response to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, that I have the latest figures from the royal borough on the rehousing of the Grenfell survivors. As of 14 May, of the 210 households that needed to be rehoused, 201—95%—have accepted offers of temporary or permanent accommodation. Of those, 138 have moved into temporary or permanent accommodation of which 64 are currently living in temporary accommodation and 74 have moved into permanent accommodation. Kensington and Chelsea Council is spending £235 million on providing the homes needed and we know that the council plans to spend an additional £83 million on top of the £152 million it has already reported spending. It has reported that it has now made over 300 permanent homes available to survivors to give people as much choice as possible.

On the building regulations, Dame Judith’s point was that the problem was not so much the regulations but a failure of the system that supervises and enforces them.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a member of the Fire Safety and Rescue APPG. I welcome the report from Dame Judith. It is time that the principle of a golden thread ran right through the entire planning, delivery and maintenance of buildings. I know that many others agree with that. I endorse the comments made by my noble friend Lord Stunell about the timing of legislation coming through, and I hope that those things that can be done swiftly will start to give confidence to the various parts of the industry that changes need to happen.

Wearing my fire safety hat, I am slightly concerned that in the Statement the Minister referred to working with industry to clarify the building regulations fire safety guidance. I hope that does not just mean with the private industry side but includes the public sector, whether fire services or local government—or indeed those people who act as approved inspectors going in to have a look.

Five years ago, the Secretary of State promised a full review of the approved document B regulations after the Lakanal House fire inquest. We need an urgent review of those. My concern is that Dame Judith Hackitt’s review is not explicit about what will happen to them. If they are to be made part and parcel of a general regulations review, please will the Government assure us that the reasons behind the review proposed five years ago remain and will be addressed as a matter of urgency? Everybody agreed five years ago that we should never let something like the Lakanal House tragedy happen again, yet here we are.

Finally, I also endorse the comments made by my noble friend Lord Stunell. Please can we not just have guarantees and hopes that private freeholders will not pass on the costs? I completely accept the Minister’s point that many leaseholders are also freeholders, but I am afraid there are too many examples already of leaseholders being faced with massive charges by freeholders who are taking none of the risk and none of the liability. That is unacceptable.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. On legislation, I can only repeat what I said: the Government place a high priority on public safety. I know that the Bill managers will take on board the points made by a number of noble Lords.

On consultation, it will not just be a review of the industry. The noble Baroness is quite right. It will involve the fire and rescue service, local authority building standards people, approved inspectors and others.

On the building regulations, we agree that the building regulations fire safety guidance needs clarification. Work actually began before the Grenfell fire last year. When the interim report was published, we promised to complete it. A clarified version of the guidance will be published for consultation in July. We want to ensure that there is no room for doubt about compliance of materials with the building regs. We will consult on Dame Judith’s recommendations, as I said, including the proposal that only non-combustible cladding can be used on high-rise buildings. Also in the report are proposals for much more stringent testing of materials, and other recommendations along those lines.

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer to the joint competent authority that the Minister has already mentioned and the implication that that would require primary legislation. This recommendation is extremely important and will help to build the infrastructure around a new and higher-standard regime. Is there any chance at all that a shadow authority could be established that might make the whole thing a little speedier than primary legislation?

I have had the pleasure of working with Dame Judith. She refers in her report to the construction design and management regulations because she chaired the Health and Safety Commission. She reports that those regulations produced good outcomes. She is wedded to these approaches being repeated in relation to the safety and quality of complex buildings and to the safety of those who live in them. The Statement implies that there will be another set of consultations, perhaps by the end of July, a Statement before the Recess and another in the autumn. There will be legislation. Can the Minister elaborate a little on the Government’s thinking on precisely how quickly some of Dame Judith’s really urgent and effective recommendations could be implemented, short of primary legislation?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. Some of the recommendations can be done without legislation, and we should start on those now—changing the culture within the industry, for example. The joint competent authority proposed by Dame Judith is quite a radical proposal. The powers are set out in more detail on page 23. We agree that we need an improved regulatory system with sharp teeth. It would make sense to bring together the three disparate bodies—the HSE, the fire and rescue service and local authority building standards—together in one overarching body with these teeth. The new body would process the applications for high-rise buildings. We need to consult on that model, as I said. We have a lot of support for her vision of an improved regulatory system. We want to consult and then set out our plans for implementation in the autumn. I note with interest the suggestion of the noble Baroness that if we go down the JCA route a shadow body should be set up to take over responsibility; she asks whether that could be done without legislation. We want to make progress and we recognise the need for reform and the need for some overarching body to make sure that we do not make the same mistakes again.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, this is a good report and I am pleased that the Government have welcomed it in the way that they have. In order to give confidence to the many thousands of people who have great anxiety about the future—the residents who live in these buildings—I wonder whether the Government would be prepared, for instance, to take immediate action to implement some of the uncontroversial recommendations in this excellent report. For instance, the residents’ voice recommendations could be implemented almost without delay and would give confidence to people out there that the Government are taking seriously not just the report but the actions from the report.

Secondly, I completely agree with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, about transparency and independence within building control, and about giving it some teeth. That is something I have been concerned with in my role as a councillor for a number of years. I look forward to that new system being independent of current construction companies and completely transparent in how it operates, and having the necessary teeth to implement action that it currently does not. That will require funding and I notice in the report a reference to that. I hope that the Government will be able to commit to properly funding local authorities in order to undertake new, strong measures to implement building control standards.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. She is quite right about residents’ voices, and in many cases that is already happening. In both the social and the private sectors there are residents’ associations—or rather, tenant forums—whereby there is a good dialogue between the freeholder, the owner and those who live in the building, and Dame Judith’s report has some suggestions as to how to take that forward. I agree that we should do that without waiting for legislation: I entirely endorse the point.

The JCA proposed by Dame Judith would indeed be independent. It would not be dominated by the industry but would be composed of the three components that I mentioned. On the residents’ voice—there is some in-flight refuelling here—the Government agree with the assessment and support the principles behind the report’s recommendations. We will work with partners to consider Dame Judith’s detailed recommendations and, again, we will set out our implementation plan in the autumn.

On resources for local authorities, some local authorities have found it quite difficult to trace the owners of some privately owned high-rise blocks. People are either not answering or they are based overseas. We have therefore made £1 million available to local authorities in order to help them enforce their duties to identify and, where necessary, take action against the owners of buildings with unsuitable cladding. As I mentioned earlier, the increased fees for planning applications should provide more resources for planning departments.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned an outcome-based safety regime. My understanding of that process is that, rather than enforce point-by-point compliance with regulations A, B and C, while there has to be compliance, overall the system—the building, that is—has to be safe. The person who is accountable for the building has to underwrite its safety. This is remarkably similar to the outcome of the inquiry conducted by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cullen, into the Piper Alpha disaster, which talked about the safety case. As noble Lords will remember, it was an appalling tragedy, and the report wisely changed the philosophical approach to safety. The Hackitt review makes the same philosophical proposal.

As someone who worked in and commented on the oil industry, I recognise this as being a positive suggestion. It means that there are lessons that the Government can learn about the rapid implementation of such a philosophical shift. So, as well as consulting the industry, I suggest that the Government should also consult the oil and gas industry, in particular the people who were around when that change was made, because it was a retrospective and ongoing change. Existing facilities had to be brought up to the new standard and new facilities had to be built in the new way. Can the Minister take that advice and talk to some of the people who have already made this philosophical shift?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord is quite right: what Dame Judith is basically saying is that we should rely less on looking in isolation at individual elements within the construction industry, which she argues leads to fragmentation, silo thinking and gaming the system, and move towards an outcome-based approach, which means standing back and making sure that the system as a whole has integrity. She is worried that at the moment what she describes as a prescriptive approach means relying on people meeting minimum standards and not taking a broader view of what is going on. In a quote that makes the point, Dame Judith says:

“This is most definitely not just a question of the specification of cladding systems but of an industry that has not reflected and learned for itself, nor looked to other sectors”.


She wants to promote what she calls a proactive and holistic view of the system as a whole. So not only should we look at the oil and gas industries, we should look at what is happening overseas where other countries are also moving towards an outcome-based system. I shall certainly take on board his point about a dialogue with other industries which have moved in this direction.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, perhaps I may remind the House that I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association. I will raise two issues which I do not think have come out fully in our discussions so far. One relates to the fact that in the future, and depending on the consultation, it might be possible for combustible materials to be used on buildings. The Government’s Statement says that people living in buildings such as Grenfell Tower should be safe and should feel safe. But no one who knows that their accommodation is made of combustible materials is going to feel safe, and I suspect that they will also face substantial increases in their insurance premiums. So I hope that we will pay close attention to what the ABI and RIBA are saying about the need to make the use of combustible materials illegal.

My second question concerns the £400 million, because this issue has not yet been made clear. Is this a fixed sum of money which local authorities are to bid into or is it a flexible sum that may actually be higher than £400 million when all the costs of replacing the cladding are known? Further, does it include payment to local housing authorities for the fire watching that is currently being undertaken in a large number of high-rise blocks? It goes on for 24 hours a day, seven days a week and the costs are likely to have substantial implications for the rents paid by those who are in that accommodation. I hope very much that the £400 million is a flexible sum that will include the amount that might be loaded on to people’s rents.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I take the noble Lord’s point about the views of the ABI. Under the recommendations made by Dame Judith, those living in blocks of flats will have much more information about how safe their building is. She talks about a “golden thread”, which is a database relating to the building. It would be kept up to date and would be accessible to residents.

On the £400 million, we want to allocate this funding for remediation as soon as possible and we will announce more details shortly, including how we will encourage landlords to continue to pursue other parties for costs where they are responsible or at fault. He asked whether it is a flexible sum. As someone who was once a Minister in that department and had negotiations with the Treasury, I suspect that it is not a flexible sum: it is £400 million that is available for local authorities to bid for to help them with the costs that they have faced. We are trying to do all we can to ensure that in the social housing sector, the costs of implementing the recommendations do not fall on tenants’ rents. We have made that position clear.

Hereditary Peers: By-elections

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Tuesday 15th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of the Lord Speaker’s announcement of the retirement of Earl Baldwin of Bewdley on 9 May, what is their policy on by-elections for hereditary Peers.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, we are committed to ensuring that the House continues to fulfil its constitutional role as a revising and scrutinising Chamber effectively, including by working with others in your Lordships’ House to address the question of its size. That policy extends, of course, to any questions on the composition of the House. We should of course also offer the noble Earl, Lord Baldwin, the very best for his retirement.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Well, that was an amiable Answer —but in no sense an answer to the Question that I asked, which was about the policy of the Government on hereditary Peers’ by-elections. Will the Minister confirm that the retirement of the noble Earl, Lord Baldwin, means that a by-election—we shall call it a parliamentary by-election—will be taking place, the electorate for which will be 31 hereditary Peers, and that the list of those eligible to stand as candidates in the election will consist of 198 hereditary Peers, 197 of whom are men?

The Minister is straightforward with this House and he has a sense of humour, so I hope that he shares the view of the overwhelming majority of this House that these by-elections are now beyond satire. They are ludicrous and indefensible. If he does think that—although he keeps his face very straight as he looks at me—I hope that he will be able to announce that the Government will do something popular and announce that these by-elections will be ended by supporting my Bill, and that this by-election, which we will be forced to go through, will be the very last of its kind.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, the noble Lord’s Bill had an unopposed Second Reading on 8 September and on 23 March useful progress was made in going through the amendments. The Government are prepared to allocate yet further time for the Committee stage of the Bill—a hospitality not normally extended to a Private Member’s Bill, as the noble Lord, himself a former Chief Whip and custodian of Fridays, will know. The use to which the House puts that extra time is a matter for him and for the House.

So far as the by-election is concerned, it will contain, I suspect, the most sophisticated and discerning electorate, comprising 31 Cross-Bench hereditary Peers.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, should we not merely wish the noble Earl, Lord Baldwin of Bewdley, well, but remember that he was the grandson of one of the greatest peacetime Prime Ministers? As a strong supporter of the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, I ask that we reduce at least some of the absurdity of this by-election by allowing all Peers to vote.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My noble friend will know that that is a matter not for legislation but for the Standing Orders of the House. If the House wanted so to do, it could do that without the noble Lord’s Bill or any action by the Government. It is entirely a matter for the Standing Orders of the House, as my noble friend Lord Cope mentioned in one of our debates.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hayman]

My Lords, this House is involved in very serious business at the moment. It was therefore very good to hear the Minister’s robust defence of the actions that this House has taken in scrutinising legislation and doing its constitutional duty of asking the other place to think again—if it thinks it should do that and it is appropriate. But it is subject to a great deal of criticism for doing that constitutional duty at the moment. Does that not make it much more important and urgent that, at this time, we take action against things that are indefensible, including both the size of the House and the nonsense of hereditary Peers’ by-elections?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The Government are giving a fair wind to this Bill and I can say from the Dispatch Box that the Government have no plans to block it or obstruct it.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government have the power to take the Bill in government time, which we would greatly welcome. Some 60 years ago there was not a single female Member of your Lordships’ House; things have moved on and improved since then. This year we are celebrating 100 years since women gained the right to vote in general elections. So is it not a deep-set irony that the only place in the UK that will not have elected a woman in a recent by-election is your Lordships’ House? Surely hereditary by-elections have had their time, which has passed and gone. I know that the noble Lord is very good at keeping a straight face on this issue and I admire him tremendously for that—but the time has come for them to go.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am not sure who put the Equality Act 2010 on the statute book, but it does not extend to the hereditary peerage—that answers the first question. On the second, the House of Lords Reform Act went on to the statute book in 1999. The Labour Government had 11 years with substantial majorities in another place in which they could have addressed this anomaly. It is a little unfair to criticise this Government for not making it a priority.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, while there is room for more than one point of view as to the merits of the Bill introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, would it not be better to wait for the outcome of the proposals from the noble Lord, Lord Burns, before we decide how to proceed in this matter? In the meantime, I agree with the suggestion that the by-elections should be made all-House by-elections, not narrowly defined ones as at present.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

As I said in response to an earlier question, the latter issue raised by my noble friend would be a matter for the House and does not require legislation. The Burns commission looked at this issue, but because it requires legislation did not directly address it. However, the Burns report did point out that, without action, the hereditaries would account for a growing proportion of a smaller House and that it would pre-empt the ability, particularly of my party but also of the Cross-Benchers, to nominate new Peers if spaces were occupied by the winners of hereditary by-elections.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, in addition to the very formidable arguments advanced by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, the Minister has just touched on an extremely important and urgent issue. Unless action is taken to finish these by-elections, we will have continual problems with the two-out, one-in policy that is absolutely critical to making progress on the Burns recommendations. This will affect the Conservative Benches and the Cross Benches in particular. Can the noble Lord not only give us an assurance that the Government will urgently find time for the Bill introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, but tell us that they will support it?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I have said that I will not obstruct it, which I think is of some reassurance. On the two-out, one-in policy, since October last year some 15 noble Lords have taken voluntary early retirement: eight from my party, four Cross-Benchers, two from the Labour Party and one from the DUP. The Liberal Democrats have scored nul points. By any reckoning, they are the most overrepresented group in this House and they should be leading the resignation field instead of being stranded at the starting post.

[Lord Beecham (Lab)]

Follow that, my Lords. I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

Children’s Services: Funding

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Thursday 10th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they intend to ensure that there is sufficient funding for local government children’s services.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, funding for children’s services is made available through the local government finance settlement. Local authorities are being given access to £45.1 billion in 2018-19 and £45.6 billion in 2019-20—an overall increase since 2017-18 of £1.3 billion. Core spending power is largely not ring-fenced, allowing local authorities to decide how best to direct their funding. Local authorities used this flexibility to increase spending on services for young people and children to around £9.2 billion in 2016-17.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply, which sounds remarkably like the Written Answer I received over a month ago. He says that local government has all this money to spend, but he will be aware that this is the total funding available for 800 different services that local government delivers, of which children’s services is just one. The National Audit Office says that local government funding has been cut by 50% in real terms since 2010, and the Minister’s figures show that local authority spending on safeguarding and looked-after children continues to increase year on year. What assessment has the Minister made of local government’s capacity to remain at this level of spend on vulnerable children, particularly in the light of the LGA’s analysis that councils are facing a funding gap of around £5 billion by 2020, of which £2 billion is in children’s services? Does the Minister deny that councils, such as my own in Brighton and Hove, have had to close Sure Start centres and youth services and end play provision and supervised parental contact? A crisis is emerging in children’s services.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am glad that the figures are the same as the ones in the Written Answer given a few weeks ago. The noble Lord is right to say that, over the past eight or 10 years, local authorities have had to manage with fewer resources from the centre. I think that local authorities of all colours have done well to maintain good-quality services with access to reduced resources. They have done that by improving back-office services and front-line delivery. More recently, the Government have recognised that those constraints need to be relaxed: we have raised the cap on council tax increases to 3% before the referendum trigger is activated; we have put £2 billion into social care, taking some of the pressure off local authority services; and, as I said in my reply, we are putting more resources into the grant. On top on that, local authorities have access to £21 billion in reserves, up 47% since 2011. We believe that they now have the resources available to continue to provide good-quality services to children.

[Lord Laming (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Lord has very helpfully agreed that local authorities have been squeezed and are being squeezed. Does he agree that in many authorities this is resulting in a reduction in preventive and family support work, and therefore local authorities are not intervening until such time as a crisis occurs? Could that be one of the reasons why more children are being admitted into public care?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord has had a lifetime of distinguished career in social care. He may have been in the House yesterday, when my noble friend Lord Agnew referred to the troubled families programme, which indicated that the number of children defined as children in need declined by 14% after they had been involved in that programme. That, of course, reduced the demands that those children and families made on more expensive children’s care services. On top of that, last year the DfE invested nearly £5 million as part of an innovation programme to test the most effective ways to provide targeted support to reduce the need for most intensive forms of intervention—precisely the point the noble Lord has made—and thereby, it is hoped, reducing the pressure on children’s services departments.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the All-Party Group for Children is doing a report on children’s social services? It has become very clear to us that thresholds for intervention are rising, leading to the situation that the noble Lord, Lord Laming, just mentioned. The Children’s Commissioner published a report yesterday that indicated that the general public’s expectations of intervention for children in need are much higher than what they actually receive. Is the Minister aware of that, and is he going to do anything about it?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

To some extent, children’s services are better placed within the local authority framework than other services because there are statutory protections for children that are not available for other services provided by local government. Spending on the most vulnerable children has increased by around £1 billion since 2010, and that includes safeguarding looked-after children and other children at risk. Since 2013, over 500,000 two year-olds have benefited from 15 hours of free early education a week. However, I am interested in the report that the noble Baroness has referred to, and I would like to write her with some more responses.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, did I hear the Minister correctly when he seemed to indicate that he wants to keep income tax down by pushing up council tax, pushing the problems that we are talking about away from the Government and on to local government?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I was not aware that I had made any such commitment at all. The question was about resources for local government; the words “income tax” never passed my lips.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the Government for the troubled families programme. In the course of evidence to the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Children, we have heard from many local authorities that are very grateful for that funding. Unfortunately, the resources that have come out of this area have been greater than the resources that have gone in. A couple of weeks ago I was speaking to a virtual school head, a former Ofsted inspector who works with looked-after children, who was decrying the fact that so many services that support families to prevent them from rising to the higher level of need have had to be cut. I sense that the Government are looking at this area and I am grateful for that, but please may I get the sense from them that this is something that they are looking at very carefully?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I hope I indicated in my earlier replies that this is a subject that the Government take very seriously. I indicated that resources have been made available in more recent years in order to reduce some of the pressures on local government. It is also worth making the point that outcomes for all children are improving, and the development gap is narrowing between high achievers and lower achievers. However, of course I take seriously the point that the noble Earl has made, and the Government will continue to see what more they can do to look after children who are at risk.

Government Vehicles: Procurement

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Tuesday 1st May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their policy on procurement of the Government’s fleet of vehicles.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, UK public procurement policy for all goods and services, including vehicles, is to award contracts on the basis of best value for money, which is achieved through fair and open competition and in line with our current international obligations. Government Buying Standards for Transport, published in December 2017, requires fleet managers to procure zero-emission or ultra-low-emission vehicles whenever possible.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister referred to the need for ultra-low-emission vehicles. Figures show that the Ministry of Justice has a fleet of 1,482 vehicles, of which only two are electric. At the same time, the Government have a target of 25% of the cars in the central government fleet being electric by 2022. Does the Minister agree that the Government have made far too modest a start on what is already a very modest target? Does he agree that 50%, or even 75%, would be a more realistic option? Does he agree that the Government should lead by example?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The Government may be starting from a low base, but if one looks at all the cars in the country one sees that 0.4% are plug-in electric; the percentage for the Government Car Service is 8.3%, so, to that extent, we are ahead of the game. We are planning to drive up to, as a minimum, 25% of the fleet being electrified—I hope that that will not distress the noble Lord, Lord West—by 2022. As we make improvements through the Bill in which the noble Baroness has taken an interest, it will become easier not just for the Government but for everyone else to invest in low-emission vehicles.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, is the move to increase the proportion of ultra-low-emission vehicles from 7% to 25% in 2022, which is some years away, an extension of the enunciation by the noble Lord, Lord Henley, that the Government will not be rushed? The Minister knows that there is a serious problem with air quality standards in London and other urban areas. Given the slowness of the Government to respond, can he tell me when he expects this country to reach the standards that have been set?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Young of Cookham]

On the first part of the noble Lord’s question, the Government published a document in December last year, Government Buying Standards for Transport, which makes their position on cars absolutely clear:

“The default is zero or ultra low emission at tailpipe with alternatives considered only in exceptional circumstances”.


As the fleet is refreshed—we keep cars for four or five years—and as that mandate begins to bite, so the percentage of government cars that are electrified will inevitably be driven up. As for his broader question, we will be publishing our clean air strategy later this year. We are due to respond shortly to a Select Committee report recommending that the Government should set out a procurement route map to show how they will achieve this target in the Budget and extend this commitment to cover the fleets of all departments, agencies and public bodies.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, are the Government putting any energy into thinking about reducing their car fleet overall? The Minister mentioned cleaning up the air. The best way to clean up the air is not to have any vehicles at all and to encourage people to walk and cycle, including Ministers. Have the Government considered that?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

This Minister certainly has. Not only do I have an all-electric car, but I have a non-electric bicycle, and I suffer from range anxiety with both. As for reducing the fleet, the document to which I referred a moment ago starts by asking government departments whether regular journeys are required at all, whether journeys can be replaced by phone teleconference and whether the need for a vehicle is still valid or just a legacy arrangement. The cost of the Government Car Service continues to be reduced.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, the Government are a major fleet operator nationally. What steps are they taking to collaborate with the automotive industry and, indeed, the IT industry, which is moving into this sector, not just to lay down legislation for things such as driverless cars and energy efficiency, but to work with those organisations to perfect those technologies, not least fuel cell technology and hydrogen?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord raises a valid point. The Government’s industrial strategy, which was published a few months ago, says that the Government are providing industry with visibility in terms of potential procurement opportunities across 19 sectors, of which this is one. Improving pre-procurement dialogue is a key part of that process. I know that my noble friend the Minister at the Department for Transport and her colleagues are in touch with the automotive industry to make sure that it can respond to the challenges that are behind many of the questions that I have been asked this afternoon.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister spotted that the word “fleet” got me rather excited, but my question relates to procurement. I have concerns, after my time in government, that departments play shops. For a particular department, it might make sense to go for a cheaper option, but the totality of the real cost for the country is never properly calculated by the Treasury. For example, not giving work to a certain factory means that it will go bust and we will have to pay money for unemployment and retraining, but these things are never taken into the calculation. We are very bad, sometimes, about making an overall decision about what is the best value for money for the nation, rather than a shortcut for a particular department. Is the Minister happy that the Treasury takes those factors into account when fleet—I am talking about car fleets, sadly—decisions are made?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The Government try to use their purchasing power to get the best value for money when it comes to investing in these vehicles. The Crown Commercial Service aggregates, through the vehicle purchase e-auction programme, the requirements across all government departments. It then has what is called a reverse auction three or four times a year to get the best bids for the vehicles that it needs. When it commissions the vehicles, it looks at the overall cost, not just the upfront cost. The contracts quite often go further than just the purchase and include servicing and repairs throughout the life of the vehicle.

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord West, raised the question of fleets. Naval ships have not come into this conversation, but would the Minister care to consult his colleagues in the Ministry of Defence and inquire whether the fleet of aircraft carriers, signed off in 2007 at £3.6 billion, which has recently come in at £6.2 billion, explains why the Army has a very small fleet of medium-weight armoured fighting vehicles?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I knew that it was a mistake to draw attention to the word “fleet” in answer to an earlier question. I say to the noble Lord that my noble friend who has responsibility for procurement at the Ministry of Defence has heard his question. There was someone sitting between us, so he was not able to relay the answer to me, but I am sure that he will be in touch with the noble Lord shortly.

Short-Term Letting

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Thursday 26th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and remind the House of my interests as declared in the register.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, the process is for local authorities to initiate any request for information from HMRC. Any disclosures of HMRC information must be lawful and covered by the memorandum of understanding with the Local Government Association. While sharing of data could identify landlords who are letting property, this would not identify landlords who are in breach of the 90-night limit.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

I thank the Minister for that Answer but, given the fact that the Tube now has a major promotion about how much more money you can get by letting your property for holidays, that the National Fire Chiefs Council has come out very strongly to say that it is worried about the fact that no one is responsible for checking these properties, and that reinstating the registration controls that were taken away would be very good—they operated most efficiently until removed by the Deregulation Act 2015 and most MPs were in favour of reinstating them, as I understand it—will the Minister put it to the Cabinet, or whoever he can put it to, to consider reintroducing the right of local authorities not only in London but throughout the country, if they wish, to have registers of these short-let properties?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

May I commend the vigour and tenacity that my noble friend applies to the subject, rivalling that of our noble friend Lord Naseby on retailers in the high street? The Government are in favour of the sharing economy; we believe that householders should have the right to rent out their rooms or their property when they do not need it, with the minimum of bureaucracy. Increasingly, visitors to London, whether from overseas or other parts of the country, expect to see a broader range of accommodation than traditional hotels, and we believe that London should respond to this changing market. Exceptionally, in London, this right is constrained and it can only happen for 90 nights per calendar year. Local authorities have powers to enforce that limit. We have no plans to extend the powers of local authorities beyond those which they already have to inspect properties, nor do we have any plans to introduce a register of the nature suggested by my noble friend.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, why do we not turn the question round and place a responsibility on local authorities to inform HMRC when properties are rented in their areas, particularly if we can build a register of landlords of properties? That would enable HMRC to pick up the huge amount of tax that is not paid by landlords who are avoiding tax in the United Kingdom.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord raises an important issue about the non-declaration of income from rented property. In 2013, HMRC launched an initiative to address the so-called tax gap. As a result, some 26,000 landlords came forward to self-correct undeclared income and £150 million had been collected by August 2017. Some 45,000 of what HMRC calls “nudge letters” have been sent out where there is third-party evidence of undeclared income. HMRC has a fairly sophisticated IT system to collect data from a variety of sources to track down income. Of course, it can approach local authorities for information on, for example, housing benefit or other information they may have in order to safeguard the revenue.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister seems to have focused the question on tax avoidance or tax evasion, when the focus of the Question from the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, is on the 90-day limit and enforcement. Can the Minister tell your Lordships’ House which local authorities are enforcing this in London and which are not? It is all very well discussing it, but if there is no enforcement, there is no use.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

Responsibility for enforcement rests, as the noble Lord recognises, with local authorities. They have quite wide powers of enforcement, and potentially there is a £20,000 fine for breach of the 90-day rule if people do not comply with the enforcement notice. Information would be made available to local authorities if, for example, neighbours or people in a block of flats felt that that 90-day limit was being extended. In addition, some of the platforms with which you register to rent out your property now have a 90-day cap on the number of days you can let out your property using that platform.

[Lord Tebbit (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend tell me whether the Government will do anything to prevent persons who are fortunate enough to have tenancy of social housing in attractive areas, particularly in London, from sub-letting that tenancy to people who are not authorised to have such a tenancy?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

It is a breach of a tenancy agreement with a registered social landlord to sublet, and if anyone had any information that was happening, the local authorities would take tough enforcement action to make sure that people on the housing waiting list had access to that accommodation.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, until 2015, all landlords were able to charge all property cost against taxation. That was stopped, with the exception of holiday lets, the owners of which can charge everything, including mortgage repayment, against taxation. Are these London-focused lets subject to the general Act, whereby you cannot claim relief, or are they the same as holiday lets?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I fear that that goes beyond my limited knowledge of the tax system. They would certainly have to declare the income; on whether they can set off against that income the related costs of letting it, I would have thought the answer was yes. Perhaps I can make some detailed inquiries of HMRC to see which of the regimes the noble Lord referred to—particularly regarding setting off interest—is applicable to holiday lets.

[Baroness Couttie (Con)]

My Lords, I draw the House’s attention to my interests as declared in the register. In Westminster, where I was the leader until January last year, short-term lets are a major problem, in some places pushing up property prices both for let and purchase, in an area where we have very short supply of housing. As a result of that, the Government have set up a pilot with Westminster Council. I would like to understand a bit about how that is working and the details of it.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My noble friend is quite right. There is now an umbrella organisation for these platforms called the Short Term Accommodation Association, which has developed a range of measures, including a code of conduct. It has a relationship with Westminster City Council called a Considerate Nightly Letting Charter, which sets out the responsibilities of property owners, managing agents, freeholders and building managers and seeks to raise standards in the industry. I understand that the charter, which was launched on 5 March, is being distributed to Westminster residents, so some of us will get that. Updates will follow in due course, and the Government are working with Westminster City Council to see whether this pilot should be rolled out more broadly.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, may I take the noble Lord back to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Palmer? Does he have or can he get the information about how many local authorities in London are enforcing the 90-day limit, and can he confirm whether such enforcement is a duty or merely an option for those councils?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

As with all the powers under the planning Act, they have a discretion over whether to use enforcement powers—it is not mandatory. I do not have information on how many local authorities have used the powers they have, but I will endeavour to write to the noble Baroness and put a copy of the letter in the Library.

Capita

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Tuesday 24th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall repeat in the form of a Statement the Answer given earlier today by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Cabinet Office to an Urgent Question in the other place.

“Mr Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to come to the House to update it on Capita’s announcement yesterday. This covered its 2017 full-year results, the launch of a £701 million rights issue and an update on its transformation programme. As I have said repeatedly, private companies can answer for themselves but the Government’s priority is the continued delivery of public services. As we demonstrated with respect to Carillion, we have continued to deliver public services without interruption.

The House will recall I came here in February when Capita initially announced the rights issue; Capita confirmed yesterday that it is proceeding in line with that previous announcement. The House may be interested to know that Capita announced in its statement yesterday that its underlying profit before tax was £383 million for 2017, in line with market expectation. It made a contribution of £21 million to reducing its pensions deficit and as a result of this announcement the share price rose by more than 10% on the day.

Capita’s board and auditors have confirmed that the company will continue to have adequate financial resources to deliver on its obligations, supported by its rights issue and other steps designed to strengthen its business. The rights issue is underwritten and the required shareholder vote will take place in early May. The management has confirmed that the key shareholders fully support its plan. In addition, the company has suspended dividends until it begins to generate positive cash flow. It expects to generate at least £200 million in free cash flow in 2020. The impact of this has been to reduce dividends and shareholder returns in favour of other stakeholders. This is evidence of shareholders, not the taxpayer, taking the burden.

I understand that noble Lords remain concerned about outsourcing companies following Carillion’s liquidation. However, Capita has a different business model and a different financial situation from Carillion. It is not a construction business and has minimal involvement in PFIs. The measures that Capita has announced are designed to strengthen its balance sheet, reduce its pensions deficit and invest in core elements of its business. Arguably, these measures may have prevented Carillion getting into the difficulties that it did. It remains the case, as I said when I came to the House in February, that neither Capita nor any other strategic supplier is in the same position as Carillion, but I would like to reassure the House that officials in my department continue to engage regularly with all strategic suppliers. It is in the taxpayer’s interest to have a well-financed and stable group of key suppliers, so we welcome the moves that the company is making”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for his questions. I will try to answer all of them. On the question of a strategic approach, he will know that a new chairman, Ian Powell, was appointed last year and a new chief executive, Jon Lewis, in December. Jon Lewis has made it clear that he is in the process of putting together what he calls a “transformation programme”. Yesterday’s announcement was part of that process. The market’s response shows that it now has confidence in the new leadership team at Capita.

The noble Lord then asked why the Government are wedded to Capita. I have looked at the major central government contracts that have been awarded to Capita: 20% were awarded by the last Labour Government, just over 50% by the coalition Government and the balance by the current Government. So, it is not the case that we are more wedded than previous Administrations to the concept of using private providers and outsourcing contracts to get the best value for money. Appropriate contingency plans are in place for each contract. They depend on the nature of the contract—that is, whether others could immediately take over if there was a problem. Major contracts have terms that give contracting authorities the freedom to act in the event of supplier failure, including financial distress. I assure the noble Lord that appropriate contingency plans are in place for these contracts.

Turning to the noble Lord’s question about small providers and SMEs, the Government are anxious to break up these large contracts wherever possible to enable more SMEs to bid for them. During the Easter Recess, the Minister announced a whole raft of measures designed to boost opportunities for small businesses to gain government work. He is right to point out how important SMEs are. They provide 16 million jobs in this country and we are committed to ensuring that they are treated fairly by large suppliers. The Government have a target of HMG spend on SMEs. It was 25% but is now 33%, so I think we are at one on that issue.

On paying subcontractors promptly, Capita is currently paying 80% of invoice value to SMEs within 30 days and has plans to raise that to a higher percentage. I hope that deals with the thrust of the noble Lord’s questions.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, are the Government considering an overall review of the privatisation and outsourcing process? This is not just about Carillion and Capita. I have been reading about the problems that Serco has been going through and the recovery programme that it is now undertaking. I have been reading a little about the problems that G4S has had over the past few years in delivering some of the services it promised. There seems to be an underlying problem of large and diverse outsourcing companies, which are extremely good at drawing up contracts, managing to crowd out SMEs.

When I was a Minister, I remember being told that SMEs lose out because they are not as good at preparing contracts and spending the money in presenting them—so they end up as the subcontractors—and that we are therefore facing an oligopoly of diverse, major companies that successive Governments have allowed to grow, as the Minister said. What can be done to encourage more SMEs to become prime contractors? If I may say so, allowing more local authorities to take responsibility would help a great deal because more local suppliers would then be able to do so. The centralisation of these diverse outsourcing companies means that decisions are taken in London and small outsourcing companies in Leeds, Manchester and elsewhere end up as subcontractors. That is very bad for local enterprise. Are the Government now considering an overview of the sector and considering that competition policy needs to be rather more active here?

I have one final comment. I am very conscious that there is a problem of oligopoly in a number of sectors, with accountancy being a major example. Do we not need now to break up some of these oligopolies?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

There is nothing ideological about this. Governments of all persuasions have found that outsourcing certain activities enables them to focus on the key functions of government. A recent survey by the CBI showed that overall there was a saving of roughly 11% by going through the process of outsourcing activities, engaging competitive markets and awarding the contract to the contractor best able to meet the objectives.

I entirely agree with what the noble Lord said about SMEs. I think there is a contract with HMRC which, when it came to an end, we broke down into component parts. As I said in response to the noble Lord, an additional measure that we have taken is that, when a main contractor is slow in paying the subcontractors, that main contractor will be deleted from the opportunity to bid for future contracts. That is a good example of the steps that we are taking.

Subcontractors will have greater access to buying authorities to report payment performances, and suppliers will have to advertise subcontracting opportunities on the Contracts Finder website. Without repeating what I said a moment ago, we have a target of driving up from 25% to 33% the percentage of government spend with SMEs on these major contracts.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that, as Capita refreshes itself and restructures, the Government will be totally intolerant of any attempt to reduce the standard of services for which Capita has contracted? If Capita attempts so to do, will the Government prioritise finding new contractors to undertake those services, including SMEs?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The Government will hold Capita, and indeed other suppliers, to the terms of their contract and take appropriate steps if those terms are ever broken.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, would it be helpful if the House were reminded of what the Companion says about procedure on Urgent Questions? They are treated as Private Notice Questions, which in turn are treated as similar to normal Oral Questions. In particular, the answers and supplementary questions on a Private Notice Question must be brief to allow as many people as possible to come in.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

If that was a rebuke to me, I am glad. I plead guilty, and I am sure that will have been noted. I will be as quick as I can with the responses to the following Urgent Question.

Local Elections: Voter ID

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Tuesday 24th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I should like to repeat an Answer to an Urgent Question given in the other place yesterday by the Parliamentary Secretary at the Cabinet Office. I apologise in advance if it is somewhat longer than it would normally have been. The Answer is as follows:

“The British public deserve to have confidence in our democracy. There is clearly the potential for electoral fraud in our system, and that undermines confidence and promotes perceptions of vulnerability. When fraud is committed in elections, it is not a victimless crime. People’s votes are stolen, or someone is elected who should not have been elected.

Earlier this year the Government announced that they would be conducting pilots for voter identification at the local elections in May this year in line with our manifesto commitment to legislate to ensure that a form of ID must be presented before voting.

Voter ID is part of the Government’s commitment to improve the security and the resilience of the electoral system that underpins our democracy and will promote greater confidence in our democratic processes. In making these changes, we will bring our electoral system in line with others, such as that in Northern Ireland or Canada, which operate successful programs and recognise that there is an increasing expectation that someone’s vote should be protected and carefully guarded.

We already ask that people prove who they are in order to claim benefits, to rent a car or even to collect a parcel from the post office, so this is a proportionate and reasonable approach. Democracy is precious, and it is right to take that more robust approach to protect the integrity of the electoral process.

Since 2014, the independent Electoral Commission has pushed for the introduction of ID to strengthen the system, and it has welcomed the voter ID pilots as a positive first step towards implementing its own recommendation that an accessible, proportionate voter identification scheme be introduced in Great Britain. In a recent report for Democratic Audit UK, academic Stuart Wilks-Heeg stated that after the scheme was introduced in Northern Ireland there was no evidence to suggest a fall in turnout but that there was plenty of evidence that fraud declined sharply.

Indeed, it was the previous Labour Government who introduced photo ID at polling stations across Northern Ireland in 2003. As I have said, it has not affected turnout there and it has helped to prevent election fraud. The Labour Minister at the time said:

‘The measures will tackle electoral abuse effectively without disadvantaging honest voters’,


ensuring that,

‘no one is disfranchised’.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/7/01; col. 739.]

The opportunity to pilot voter ID in May 2018 was offered to all local authorities in Great Britain, and five—Woking, Gosport, Bromley, Watford and Swindon —have committed to do so. Proxy voters in Peterborough will also be required to show ID before they can vote on 3 May 2018. The Minister for the Constitution has taken the opportunity to speak to each local authority about the design of their pilots and the methods that they have applied to ensure that their electors are aware of voter identification and that each elector’s needs are understood. Local authorities will notify every eligible voter by including information of the ID requirement on their poll card.

No one will need to buy ID documents to be able to vote, and the ID requirements will not be limited to a passport or driving licence. In the pilots, voters can use a wide variety of ID, from marriage certificates and passports to bus passes and bank cards, depending on where they live. If voters do not have the required ID, local authorities are providing alternative or replacement methods to ensure that no one is disenfranchised. Everybody eligible to vote will have the chance to do so.

The pilots will help to identify the best way of implementing voter ID, and we look forward to each authority’s findings. The Minister for the Constitution has responded to the recent letter from the chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, and a copy has been made available in the Library of both Houses. All the local authorities involved have completed equality impact assessments, and the Electoral Commission will independently evaluate the pilots, with results published this summer.

We want to ensure that our elections are as accessible as possible and that there are no barriers to democratic participation. We have recognised that, for example, people with a disability face different issues when registering and voting. We have run a call for evidence to hear directly about their experiences to enhance the Government’s understanding so that we can help those people to register and cast their vote. We have also recently made it easier for survivors of domestic abuse to register to vote anonymously for fear of revealing their address to an ex-partner, as there were fears that that was preventing survivors registering to vote.

The aim of the pilots is to protect voting rights, and it comes in the context of protecting and improving our democracy. Pilots are important in order to find out what works best. Electoral fraud is unacceptable on any level, and its impact on voters can be significant. It takes away an elector’s right to vote as they want, whether through intimidation, bribery or impersonating someone in order to cast their vote. The Cabinet Office, in partnership with the Electoral Commission and Crimestoppers, launched the Your Vote is Yours Alone campaign only last month to encourage people to report electoral fraud if they see it.

The impact of electoral fraud is real and it is criminal. It steals something precious from a person and undermines the entire system for everyone. I do not want to see our democracy dumbed down; it is rather a shame that the Labour Party appears to”.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

Ensuring our elections are safe and secure is an important duty, and one which I fully support. Will the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, say a bit more about the evaluation process? I hope that he can confirm that a speedy decision will be taken by the Government after the pilots have been evaluated, as we need simple but effective measures to ensure the integrity of the electoral process and to ensure that we do not get in the way of enabling people to cast their vote, which is the other side of the same coin and an important part of their playing their role as citizens of the UK.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. There will be an independent statutory evaluation of the pilots conducted by the Electoral Commission. That will be published by the end of July, and it will inform the ensuing debate.

[Lord Tyler (LD)]

My Lords, we recognise the validity of the concerns of the EHRC, but we should know by the summer whether the Government were correct in their assessment or whether those concerns were legitimate. Meanwhile, what exactly are the new safeguards to prevent electoral fraud in postal and proxy voting that are being tested in the three pilot areas referred to by the Minister in the Commons yesterday? The Minister also assured my Liberal Democrat colleague there that the number of registered electors who are not permitted to vote in person, for lack of appropriate ID, will be recorded and reported. What will happen if that number exceeds the margin of victory in a particular ward?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord is quite right: three local authorities are piloting new procedures for voter ID on postal votes—Tower Hamlets, Peterborough and Slough. I said a little about that in my opening remarks. Some local authorities are not only making people more aware of the incidence of electoral fraud and encouraging them to report it where necessary to Crimestoppers, but are following up after the election—contacting certain electors who have used the postal vote—to make sure that nothing improper has taken place.

With regard to turning up at a polling station and not being able to vote, in one local authority—I think it is Swindon—if you do not have the necessary documentation on polling day you can take along someone called an “attester”, who has the necessary documentation and is registered in the same ward, and if the attester vouchsafes your identity you can then vote.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Is the Minister aware that during the proceedings on the Electoral Administration Bill on 21 March 2006, in col. GC 94, some of us proposed an alternative to electoral registration in a scheme similar to the pilots currently proposed by the Government? There was, however, a crucial difference: individual local authorities could apply for permission to run voter ID control schemes only if they believed that they had a particular problem with electoral fraud. With the Government now proposing pilots with a view to a national rollout, in addition to existing electoral registration schemes, which are already costing us millions—a fortune and, in my view, a waste of money—will not more money be wasted on a problem that affects only a very small number of local authorities?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I was not in your Lordships’ House in March 2006—I was elsewhere—so I do not recall that intervention. However, the noble Lord made a similar intervention when we debated a statutory instrument on the combined authorities order 2017. We are not minded to adopt the proposals that he has referred to. Any incidence of electoral fraud is unacceptable. The independent Electoral Commission have been pressing for voter ID since 2014; the Eric Pickles report that looked at the wider incidence of voter fraud recommended it as part of the way forward; and I think that this is the right way. I notice that when we debated the measure in Grand Committee there was broad support for the Government’s approach, with a notable dissenting intervention by the noble Lord.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

Would my noble friend consider, when he reviews the effectiveness of ID in voting systems, consulting the Labour Party? In selection meetings the Labour Party requires two forms of ID: one photo ID and one proof of address. It goes on to say, “It is rare that members have no form of ID”. That is a direct quote from the Tottenham Labour Party, but it applies—does it not?—to many other Labour constituency parties: they have experience and expertise that the Government could well draw on.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am very grateful to my noble friend. The chances of my presenting myself at a selection meeting for the Labour Party, when it chooses a new candidate, are small. However, my noble friend makes a valid point: people are now accustomed to being asked for various forms of ID during the normal course of their daily lives, so there should not be a problem as we introduce these pilots for voter ID in a few local authorities.

[Baroness Corston (Lab)]

My Lords, when I was in the other place representing Bristol East, I was one of the few Members who conducted a constituency-wide consultation on identity cards when they were proposed by the then Labour Government. There was a mix of replies and we then held a consultation with the Minister, Beverley Hughes—now my noble friend Lady Hughes. The people who were most in favour of identity cards were women from our ethnic minority communities, who said to us in terms that they had no access to their passports and no bank accounts; some of them were not even allowed to have a library card. This also applied to replies from another women’s organisation, representing women who were subject to coercive control. They all said, “I do not have any means of identity, and no man in my family will allow me any”. Perhaps the Minister will tell me how women like that will be able to vote because they will not turn up if they think that they will be turned away.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Baroness makes a valid point. Local authorities are implementing equality impact assessments and working with partners to ensure that voter ID does not risk preventing any eligible voter from voting. The noble Baroness has raised an important issue, and when the Electoral Commission evaluates the impact of the pilots, I will make sure that it takes on board the specific issue she raises.

[Lord Rennard (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that when you go along to a polling station to cast your vote but find that somebody has stolen it and impersonated you, you would be issued with a tendered ballot paper. Those are then kept separately in discrete envelopes and used if necessary—because the result of the count is so close—when somebody has to adjudicate whether or not that is a valid ballot paper. This process indicates what level of impersonation takes place at polling stations, so can the Minister tell us how many tendered ballot papers have been issued in any of the recent national elections? Does he also accept that perhaps the best deterrent against impersonation at polling stations is the presence of a uniformed police officer, as used generally to be the case?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am not sure that the presence of a uniformed police officer would guarantee the absence of impersonation in every case. The steps that we are taking in line with the recommendation of the Electoral Commission are the right way to go. The noble Lord asked a specific question; the answer to it is not in the folder in front of me, but I will endeavour to get it and write to him.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister perhaps give us some advice on the terms of reference and the way in which the Electoral Commission will produce its report? One of the particular concerns being expressed on our Benches is that voter ID schemes will be used to depress turnout. Will an evaluation of the impact on turnout come through from this study and, in particular, will the Electoral Commission look at that issue and compare, say, Peterborough with adjacent areas that do not have the obligation to produce voter ID when people go to vote?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

Not only will the Electoral Commission be able to do that—I am sure that it will—but anybody could look at the turnout. As I said in my opening Statement, there is no evidence in Northern Ireland or in many other countries that have moved over to voter ID that this has depressed turnout.

Elections: Personal Data

Lord Young of Cookham Excerpts

Wednesday 18th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tyler]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they are satisfied that current electoral law adequately prevents the misuse of personal data in United Kingdom elections and referendum campaigns.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, the misuse of personal data in UK elections is governed primarily by data protection law. The Information Commissioner has said that she has an ongoing investigation into the use of data analytics for political purposes, in which she is continuing to invoke all her powers and is pursuing a number of live lines of inquiry. The Government are currently considering recommendations from the commissioner, including some for enhanced legal powers.

[Lord Tyler (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the slightly more positive tone from the Minister since our previous exchanges on 28 March, but I particularly draw his attention to the fact that my Question relates also to referendums. Given that the Foreign Secretary panicked and sought to rubbish the evidence of whistleblowers even before they presented it, given that leave campaigners were seeking, obviously, to avert an adverse judgment when they attacked the impartiality of the Electoral Commission, and given that when the Conservative chair of the investigating Select Committee in the other place was asked whether the Brexit poll was compromised he said that we may need a public debate about that, do the Government not recognise that any complacency gives added voice to the demand for the public to have a free and fair vote at the end of the Brexit process?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The last question the noble Lord put to me is a matter in which we will be engaged in the forthcoming debate on the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, where there may well be an amendment of the type that he envisages, and it would be wrong for me to anticipate that debate. So far as his first points are concerned, the Information Commissioner and the Electoral Commission are independent offices, with robust chairmen and chief executives, and I am sure they are capable of withstanding pressure from whatever direction it may come.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lord has seen the comments made yesterday by the chair of the Commons DCMS Select Committee, which referred to extracts from interviews given by Nigel Oakes, founder and CEO of SCL Group, in which he made reference to the Nazis leveraging,

“‘an artificial enemy’ to make people scared, and through this to incite hatred of Jewish people”,

and, chillingly, by the former communications director of Leave.EU, Andy Wigmore, who was reported praising the Nazi propaganda machine and boasting of Leave.EU borrowing outrageous and provocative tactics from Donald Trump to keep immigration at the heart of the 2016 referendum campaign. As the chair’s statement said,

“these statements will raise concerns that data analytics was used”—

in the referendum campaign—

“to target voters who were concerned about this issue, and to frighten them with messaging designed to create ‘an artificial enemy’ for them to act against”.

Very encouragingly, today the Minister has said that the Government will consider action in the light of the various investigations that are taking place, but the point I put to him is this: I believe our very democracy is under threat and the Government must take action in this area.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I begin by endorsing what the noble Lord has just said and deploring any language that incites racial hatred or, indeed, any other form of hatred in this country. He will know that the Information Commissioner is investigating exactly this issue of whether information has been improperly used to seek to influence the outcome of an election or a referendum. I made it clear in response to the noble Lord that we are in active dialogue with the Information Commissioner. We have already accepted some amendments to the Data Protection Bill which is currently in another place. We are prepared to do so again if it is necessary to deal with any inadequacies in the legislation.

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that this is a global problem that cannot be resolved on a one-country basis? If the Electoral Commission is to have additional powers, which I am sure it is going to need, how are the Government going to approach the broader issue and try to reach international agreement to tackle this extremely grave issue? There really is a threat to our democracy, I believe.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

Of course, we can have our own rules governing how elections are conducted in this country, and any outside organisation would have to comply with the law here. However, to respond to the good point that the noble Lord makes, we are actively engaged with the commission on its public consultation on the back of its recommendation for measures to effectively tackle illegal content online that it published in March this year. We are going to play a full and active part in shaping the ongoing commission work that follows publication of the voluntary guidance. I return to what I said right at the beginning: regardless of what is happening in the rest of the world, we can have a robust electoral system in this country, not least because we have manual counting and, on the whole, manual voting, which are less vulnerable to corruption.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, following the previous question about the problems of international interference in all forms of elections throughout the world, is it not the case that technology is moving so fast that any change in electoral law will have to be drafted in a very flexible manner so that it keeps up with the changes in technology, whether the threat comes from Russia, America, Cambridge Analytica or anywhere else?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I agree with my noble friend. I know Henry VIII is not always man of the match in this country, but the Data Protection Bill provides order-making powers so that the Government can act quickly to keep rights and responsibilities up to date and respond to the emerging threats that my noble friend has just mentioned.

[Lord Rennard (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that there may be widespread evasion of the basic principles of our electoral laws aimed at ensuring that there is a level playing field, and that the costs of gathering data, analysing it and then using it for communications purposes in general elections are not properly apportioned between constituencies? In referendums, its use by third parties ensures that we no longer have a principle whereby either side of a referendum campaign can spend the same amount of money. Before we have another general election or another referendum, we must put our electoral laws right because they are clearly not fit for purpose.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord will know that there is a case currently before the courts on precisely the issue that he has raised: the allocation of expenditure between local constituencies and the central party. It would be sensible to await the outcome of that case before deciding whether any legislative changes are necessary.