Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourteenth sitting)

Lewis Atkinson Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 26th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Naz Shah]

My hon. Friend makes a very valid point. Another issue that we have not got to yet, but that we will be looking at, is the doctors who do not want to take part in this process. We must consider whether there will be a bias; he is right to point that out. Will there be a subconscious bias towards helping people? My hon. Friend the Member for Stroud suggested earlier that doctors assist a person to reach a decision, according to the Mental Capacity Act. This is the crux of it for me: when a doctor is assisting a person in their best interests to come to a decision about treatment, for example, that is a different test from what we are testing here.

[Lewis Atkinson (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

I share the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford about the use of DNRs—what happened during covid to people, particularly those with disabilities, was a disgrace. Does my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford West accept that this is an entirely different situation, however, in that people must actively seek it, be tested multiple times, and express a wish for it? The situation with DNRs involved medical professionals making decisions on behalf of a patient without their input.

[Naz Shah]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I will be speaking to that in the next group of amendments, so I do not want to go through it in detail now, but I absolutely accept that that was a disgraceful situation—

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[Danny Kruger]

It pleases me but it does not satisfy me. I am encouraged by it, but I am not fully satisfied. Obviously, it is insufficient. The hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Spen Valley put great faith in the training that we are going to introduce. Well, I hope they are right. Let us certainly do as much training as we can— likewise, let us get as much data as we can—but the provision set out is not sufficient, not least because the training will be in the application of the Mental Capacity Act, which we are saying, even if properly applied, has all sorts of problems with it, as my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate explained.

Yes to training and yes to the option of the referral—that should be mandatory, and I think there is a proposal to effect that. Every additional safeguard is welcome. It goes back to my point about whether we are being thorough or simplistic. I am not sure. If I think there are four assessments, but the hon. Member for Stroud thinks there are eight, does that not fail Chris Whitty’s test of being simple? If eight is in fact thorough, would nine not be even more thorough? The suggestion that we have hit it at the perfect sweet spot and that to veer one side is to introduce all sorts of bureaucratic hurdles seems unrealistic. Surely we can apply a little more rigour to this exercise.

[Lewis Atkinson]

I know that we have interacted before about our fundamental difference on the ventilator test: someone saying, “I want to die, please turn off my ventilator” as opposed to, “I want to die, please let me take this substance.” Although we may have a fundamental disagreement on whether those things are the same or different, if he still thinks it is appropriate for the Mental Capacity Act to be used as a one-off test, with no other safeguards, for turning off a ventilator, then why is it appropriate in that situation but not when tested multiple times in this instance?

[Danny Kruger]

I recognise that this is a vital point; I am not surprised that we keep returning to this important distinction. I do think that there is a vital distinction between accepting treatment and declining a treatment. In fact, the treatment proposed here is not a treatment at all—the British Medical Association specifies that it is not a medical treatment. The termination of life deliberately does not apply to a particular condition, whereas a ventilator, or any treatment that one might decline or withdraw, is specific to a particular condition or illness. There is a difference in purpose, even if the effect—which is death—is the same.

To the hon. Member’s point on whether the MCA is appropriate in cases of withdrawal of treatment; well, there we do seem to have a substantial body of clinical practice over many years, to which I am not aware of many objections. My non-expert view is that it is probably appropriate to continue with the MCA in those cases. I do not have an objection there and I am certainly not making that argument. It may well be that it is appropriate, and I am sure we will constantly review the applicability of that particular test in those circumstances. It might well be that some of the problems that I am identifying with the proposed law may also apply in cases of withdrawal of treatment—but I am not aware of that, because I do think they are substantially different. Even if it were perfectly acceptable to apply the MCA in cases of withdrawal of treatment, that does not mean it is appropriate in this case, because they are fundamentally different scenarios. I do not detect that I have satisfied the hon. Member, but it is always good to have the exchange.

I will conclude my challenge to the suggestion that the MCA is universally understood and properly applied. The Court of Protection case of Patricia, a patient with anorexia nervosa, has been referred to a number of times in the course of our debate. We heard evidence from a group of anorexia sufferers who wrote to the Committee to say:

“The judge in the Court of Protection case of Patricia…stated that he had changed his mind several times while considering the evidence. He then came to a different view on capacity from the treatment team. This single case exemplifies how complex the processes described under Clauses 7, 8 and 12 of the Bill in relation to assessment of capacity are likely to be”.

We are not talking about a straightforward process. It is clear from all the evidence we have had that there is a real problem with the way that the MCA would apply.

I want to make a rather obvious point, which is that when the MCA was debated and passed 20 years ago, assisted dying, or assisted suicide, was not on the table; it was not part of those considerations, as far as I am aware. It turns out that Dignity in Dying was on the case back in those days, although I think it was still called the Voluntary Euthanasia Society then. That group was conscious of what would come—I do not think that others were—and I detect that it is quite pleased now with the influence applied then to ensure that the presumption of capacity would be very useful one day when it came to passing an assisted dying law. It was not the intention of the House of Commons or of the Committee that considered that Bill that in fact they were establishing a test that would be applied in the case of assisting suicide and changing the terms of the Suicide Act. I am sure that if that had been the case, it would have been commented on, and I daresay the Mental Capacity Act would not be in its current form, or there would have been some addendum to that effect.

My hon. Friend the Member for Reigate referred to the very powerful evidence from lawyers, Baroness Hale and the Royal College of Psychiatrists about the challenge here. I want to quickly say, in support of amendment 322 in the name of the hon. Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford, that my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate made a powerful argument about impairment; it is striking that the MCA only applies when there are cases of impairment of, or disturbance in, the functioning of the mind or brain—I will not repeat the point she made, but I urge Members to reflect on it.

I will quote Ruth Hughes, a barrister specialising in mental capacity law and inheritance. This refers back to the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate and I discussed in an earlier sitting about the clear opportunity that the Bill affords people to seek an assisted death for the sole purpose of saving their family money. Ruth Hughes says:

“If the…Bill is passed, then this will lead to some of the most vulnerable people dying for others’ financial gain. That is certain…Although in general I would, of course, accept the importance of the presumption of capacity, in relation to assisted dying, I consider that, the burden of proof for capacity should be reversed so that it is necessary to establish capacity to decide to die positively.”

Amendment 322 is tabled for that very obvious reason: there is a clear financial advantage for family members, and, I am afraid to say, there are many other distressing motivations that people might have that are not intended by the Bill’s promoter, the hon. Member for Spen Valley. It feels absolutely appropriate that we reverse the burden and have a much higher test of eligibility than that afforded by the Mental Capacity Act.

I want to make another point, although I do not know how hon. Members will feel about it because a lot of people do not accept that we are talking about suicide, even though it is in the terms in the Bill that we are amending the Suicide Act. The assumption of capacity in somebody taking their own life is what is proposed if we adopt clause 3: we are proposing that somebody has capacity if they end their own life. That implies directly that somebody who is standing on a window ledge or a bridge, about to commit suicide, is assumed to have capacity and to be making a rational decision, which other people should support. I say that directly, because there is a direct read-across with the whole topic of suicide prevention, which obviously we all strongly believe in. How can we say that somebody who is about to take their own life, unassisted, does not have capacity and is not making a settled and informed wish? In which case, why should we stop them or try to wrestle them back from the edge?

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[Lewis Atkinson]

Does my hon. Friend agree that clause 8(6), which requires the second doctor to be independent of the first—they must not be

“a partner or colleague in the same practice or clinical team”—

would protect against the situation on which the hon. Member for East Wiltshire speculates?

[Jake Richards]

Yes, there are safeguards and mechanisms in the Bill to ensure that and to protect from a culture that would incentivise this practice.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twelfth sitting)

Lewis Atkinson Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 25th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Danny Kruger]

I am very happy to use the word “condition”—we all use it quite casually, including me—but we are concerned about legislation here. As I explained, if we include the term “medical condition”, courts could interpret that as a development—an addition—to the existing law on terminal illness, which refers only to illness and disease. The courts would be right to conclude that Parliament meant more than illness or disease, which is why it is important to be explicit about what we are talking about: illness or disease.

I think we should remove that term, but if other Members do not, I would like to understand why. The hon. Members for Harrogate and Knaresborough or for Spen Valley might have some suggestions, but I would be grateful if somebody could clarify, explicitly, what is meant by “medical condition” that is not caught by the terms “illness” or “disease”. What are the meanings of the three terms, and why do we have to have “medical condition”? It might well be that there are conditions that would not be captured by “illness” or “disease” that would be appropriate.

[Lewis Atkinson (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

On that point, I will quote directly from Chris Whitty’s evidence to the Committee:

“there are people who may not have a single disease that is going to lead to the path to death, but they have multiple diseases interacting, so they are highly frail; it is therefore not the one disease that is the cause, but the constellation that is clearly leading them on a path inexorably to…death”.––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 32, Q5.]

From my perspective, it is about that “constellation” where death is clearly going to happen as a result of a combination of different conditions, illnesses or diseases. That it is where that is very clear, and, because of the six-month eligibility in the Bill, we have that nailed down. That is the importance of including the term, because it is not one disease that leads to death; it is the constellation of diseases and illnesses that will inexorably lead to death.

[Danny Kruger]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I thought that might be the case too, and I was wondering about that, but I am very concerned about some of the evidence that Professor Whitty gave. I regret that the hon. Member for Spen Valley has removed the role of the chief medical officer from the process that she is designing by introducing the new commissioner, but I will not be sorry to see that particular chief medical officer excluded from the process. He has made significant mistakes; he had to write to the Committee to explain that he had misrepresented the Mental Capacity Act, and, on his evidence, the Committee voted to reject certain amendments.

I am concerned about what Professor Whitty said, but if the reason for including “medical condition” is to reflect the fact that there might be multiple diseases or illnesses that, together, mean that somebody is terminally ill, that is what should be stated in the Bill. It could very well include “a combination of illnesses or diseases that amount to terminal illness”. My concern is about this new concept of a medical condition, which, as I have said, implies something different from a disease or illness.

The Bill would say “the person’s death in consequence of illness or disease”—if we remove “medical condition” —so that would be the qualification or eligibility. If there is a number of illnesses or diseases that amount to a fatal prognosis, that would be captured in the clause, even once we have excluded medical condition, because the singular “illness” or “disease” would, as I understand it from our guidance on statutory interpretation, include the plural. If it is about there being a number of illnesses or diseases that add up to a fatality, the Bill as I propose to amend it would be adequate to the scenario that the hon. Member for Sunderland Central described and that Professor Whitty accounted for. The question is, what is additional illness or disease, or illnesses or diseases, that are captured by the term “medical condition”?

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting)

Lewis Atkinson Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 12th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Rebecca Paul]

I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. I know that she is wholeheartedly seeking to make sure that the safeguards in the Bill are as good as they can be, so I very much appreciate her recognising the positive intent behind my amendments.

It would be useful to understand whether those who are legally qualified believe that undue influence is already covered by “coercion”. I am not qualified to give a view on that, but if that were the case, that would provide some reassurance, and that could then maybe be included in guidance. However, I would want to see a legal opinion on that.

In the absence of such a legal opinion, putting that on the face of the Bill is the safest—and the right—thing to do at this point in time. I suspect that we will be voting on this shortly, before we can get a legal opinion, and given that we are talking about safety here, I would rather go for belt and braces and include “undue influence” on the face of the Bill.

[Lewis Atkinson (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

Can I just clarify something? As my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge said, I understand that “undue influence” has an existing meaning, but only in equity law. The hon. Lady herself mentioned wills, for example, being challenged in probate. There, as I understand it, the burden of proof rests fully on the person challenging the will; there is not an active test that someone has not been unduly influenced. If the hon. Lady is to use undue influence as an existing legal concept, would she favour reversing the presumption on the burden of evidence? In addition, I think there is a distinction between actual undue influence and presumed undue influence in the case law. I wonder which of those she thinks we should be using when considering this amendment.

[Rebecca Paul]

I thank the hon. Member for that intervention. I think the point on probate is right; it is commonly used there, but it is not just used in that situation. My understanding is that, when it comes to decisions by clinicians with regard to withdrawing life-sustaining treatment, undue influence is one of the considerations.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Eighth sitting)

Lewis Atkinson Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 11th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

I will quickly observe the point made by witnesses about what is called fluctuating capacity, which is inherent in certain conditions, particularly dementia. The point about a decision for an assisted death is that, once someone has made it, they cannot unmake it. By the way, that is a key distinction between requesting an assisted death and declining treatment: one can always go back on a decision to decline treatment, but not on a decision to have an assisted death. Capacity fluctuates, particularly with dementia.

[Lewis Atkinson (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

Can I clarify what the hon. Member is proposing by introducing a separate test for people accessing assisted dying? Say an individual is on a respirator at the end of their life. Under what the hon. Member is proposing, if they said, “Please turn this respirator off; I want to die”, he thinks that it is appropriate for capacity to be assessed under the Mental Capacity Act 2005, but somehow he thinks that that person should have a different legal test if they said, “I want to take a drug to end my life,” knowing full well that they would have exactly the same result.

[Danny Kruger]

The simple answer is yes, I do. I think it is a causatively different decision. In fact, this whole Bill entails causative differences between those decisions. I will come to that point more in a moment.

Professor Owen made an important point to us regarding capacity. He said:

“You might be talking about a kind of cognitive impairment that has not reached the threshold for a diagnosis of dementia; you might be talking about a kind of mood problem or an anxiety problem that is sub-clinical; or you might be talking about a level of intelligence that is not clinically a learning disability.”

He talked about

“pressure within a family, let us say, which is often not malign in its intentions, but it exists.”

and about situations

“where there is an impairment and also an interpersonal pressure”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 30 January 2025; c. 234, Q297.]

Although we are not talking at this point explicitly about coercion and family pressure, the issues around capacity and coercion are nevertheless intertwined, and it is often very difficult for doctors to determine what is really going on. Again, the challenges around capacity are intense.

The point has been made by hon. Members that under clause 9(3)(b), if the second doctor in the process is in doubt about capacity, they “may” refer the person to a psychiatrist, but the clause in fact refers to “a registered medical practitioner” who “has experience of” the assessment of capacity—so not a psychiatrist, but just someone who has experience, whatever that means, of the assessment of capacity. It is not totally obvious what that means. Amendment 365 has been tabled overnight by the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) which would mean that both the first and second doctor, and indeed the court, if we are allowed to have a court process, “must”—not “may”— refer the person to a psychiatrist. That is not just if they are concerned about capacity, by the way. The court, or whoever it is, must conclude that there is no

“impairment of judgment arising from a mental disorder or other condition”.

I very much welcome that amendment and I hope that we will pass that in due course.

[Danny Kruger]

That is excellent news. For the first time so far in the course of this debate, we have a strengthening of the Bill from the hon. Member. That is great news—we can chalk that up as a victory, and as good sense breaking out. I am grateful for that. Let’s see what more we can achieve.

The point that I want to make is that we are in the foothills of understanding the effects of depression, cognitive impairment and social pressure on the decision to end life. That is a point made strongly by a series of witnesses to us in both oral and written evidence: we are still very much in the early stages of understanding how capacity interacts with mental illness, disability and coercion. Then, into the mists of vagueness, we are proposing to insert this single clunking, clumsy question: “Is there evidence of incapacity?” I strongly suggest that the abuse of the Mental Capacity Act that we are seeing here is not a way of simplifying the process of ensuring that there are a small number of strong safeguards; it is a great complication of the process and introduces more complexity, as we see from the many additional things that clinicians should consider. That is in direct contradiction to the principle of the Mental Capacity Act, which simply asks the question: “Is there capacity?”

The point has been made that there is more to the Mental Capacity Act than simply the question of capacity. There are concepts of best interests and supporting decision making. As the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge suggested, it is a cumulative process. The Mental Capacity Act entails not only the question of capacity but the consideration of best interests and whether we are supporting the decision making of an individual. I am not sure how those terms apply in a situation of assisted dying. It is not similar or comparable to the sorts of decisions that the MCA is intended to apply to.

[Lewis Atkinson]

This touches on some of the evidence given by Mr Ruck Keene, particularly around the best interests decision. From my reading of this legislation, it is very clear that there is no possibility for someone to make a decision on behalf of or in the best interests of anyone else. As the hon. Member for Solihull West and Shirley mentioned earlier, there are a number of exclusions in the Mental Capacity Act. For example, someone is not able to make a best interests decision on someone getting married or adopting. Does the hon. Member agree that in order to have a guarantee, without any doubt, on the best interests point, an amendment could be included to clarify that nothing in the MCA would allow a best interests decision under this legislation?

[Danny Kruger]

That is absolutely right. I do not think best interests can apply in this case. That is why the Mental Capacity Act is being abused. As the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge said, it is supposed to be cumulative. We are supposed to consider all aspects of the Mental Capacity Act, and best interests should be part of a consideration—but how on earth does one make a best interests decision about somebody deciding to commit suicide? The hon. Gentleman is right that best interests are excluded in the Bill, so the Mental Capacity Act is not being used, except for this most basic, low-level bar to cross, which is the capacity decision.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Seventh sitting)

Lewis Atkinson Excerpts

Thursday 30th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Danny Kruger (East Wiltshire) (Con)]

Q Professor Hoyano, what do you think about the indemnity against civil liability in the Bill? Do you think it is appropriate to indemnify all doctors, even if they have made a woefully bad diagnosis, botched a prescription or, in some cases, actually caused some harm? Do you think it is appropriate that they be excluded from civil liability?

Professor Hoyano: I always have a problem when tort liability is ruled out by legislation. I think that the accountability of medical professionals, and indeed all medical practitioners in private practice, lies at the heart of how our national health service works, so I have a difficulty with that. I would have to ask Ms Leadbeater whether this is correct, but perhaps the intention was to ensure that members of the family who, for example, were against assisted dying in principle, would not be able to bring an action that could be vexatious against a doctor who had complied with the legislation and should therefore not be troubled with that type of litigation. It might be that that provision could be refined.

[Lewis Atkinson (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

Q Professor Hoyano, the Bill would establish offences relating to coercion, pressure and so on. In the processes set out, there are a number of checkpoints, for want of a better term, at which a person seeking assisted dying may talk to doctors or others. What are your observations on how the criminal construct of offences is linked to the different opportunities for an individual seeking assisted dying to have conversations? In your view, is it likely to lead to the identification of those offences? How does that contrast with some of the considerations at the moment, where people are withdrawing treatment in a life or death situation, for example?

Professor Hoyano: It is interesting that a number of Members of Parliament who are practising physicians pointed out in the debate that they have to evaluate freedom of decision making and absence of coercion in many different medical contexts. I point particularly to the withdrawal of medical treatment at the request of the patient, even if that will inevitably lead to death. It is considered to be a fundamental human right that lies at the heart of medical law that a patient has personal autonomy to decide what to do with their body and whether or not to accept medical treatment, provided that they have the capacity to do so and are acting without coercion from external sources. Doctors have to make those assessments all the time.

I suggest that it is perhaps a convenient fallacy to say that pulling the plug on a respirator or stopping artificial nutrition and hydration is a negative act, whereas giving a patient a syringe to end their own life is a positive act. I realise that with the Tony Bland case it was convenient to say that, but there is no doubt that most people on the street would say that pulling the plug on a respirator is a positive act, and yet doctors and nurses are required to do that every day in the NHS, because that is the patient’s autonomy. If there is any question about either coercion or capacity, the Court of Protection steps in and has the jurisdiction to make those decisions.

The Court of Protection should, I believe, be the court that is supervising this, not the High Court. Three levels of judges sit in the Court of Protection; I suggest that a High Court judge be specified, which would mean a statutory amendment to extend the jurisdiction of the Court of Protection. The Court of Protection makes decisions every day on whether a patient has the mental capacity to make decisions about their own medical treatment. It is accustomed to doing that, and one aspect of that analysis is whether the patient is being coerced externally.

Generally speaking, when a patient says, “I don’t want to be on a respirator any longer; I know I’m going to die,” we do not ask questions. As I understand it, it is not part of the protocol to say, “Are you doing this because you are worried about being a burden on the NHS?”, because their personal autonomy is the overriding principle governing medical decision making in relation to the patient. I hope that that answers your question.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

Q Professor Owen, written evidence from the Royal College of Psychiatrists states that 65% of psychiatrists

“are not confident that consent can act as an adequate safeguard”.

On mental capacity, it says:

“These decisions are opinions with a margin of error and are time specific. A person’s capacity can change”.

What is your view?

Professor Owen: That is important evidence, because it comes from a body of practitioners who are very used to doing mental capacity assessments. I think that the vast majority of that sample were consultant psychiatrists, so the pool, as it were, was one of considerable experience. That conveys questionable confidence in the consent processes, of which mental capacity is part, in relation to the decision to end one’s life. It is significant evidence about the confidence that is out there among experienced practitioners.

It is true that psychiatrists—liaison psychiatrists particularly; I have had experience with this myself, clinically and in relation to Court of Protection matters—will be involved with assessing capacity to make decisions to refuse life-sustaining treatment. Those decisions can be quite vexed and can go to the court, and the court can struggle with them.

An important question for the Committee is the distinction—or the similarity and difference, but I think that there are key differences—between the decision to refuse a treatment that is life-sustaining, of which the Court of Protection does have experience, and the decision to decide to end one’s own life. They are conceptually different decisions. I can outline some of the similarities and the differences now, but it might be helpful to take submissions specifically on that question, because it is very important and I think that there is some confusion about it. If you would find it helpful, the complex life and death decisions group could write a statement to elaborate on some of the issues. In summary, I think that that evidence from the Royal College of Psychiatrists is significant, in terms of the confidence.

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[Kim Leadbeater]

Q This has been an incredibly helpful panel, so thank you for all your expertise.

Let me come back to the content of the Bill, and to some of your points, Professor Owen. In terms of capacity and coercion, I think we are absolutely having these really important conversations. What concerns me a little bit, though, is whether we are saying we are not confident that two doctors, potentially a psychiatrist and an oncologist, and a judge can make assessments of capacity and coercion between them. What does that mean for things that are happening at the moment? We have talked about the withdrawal of end of life treatment and those things; those assessments must be being done now, all the time, but at the moment there is no legal framework around that. Surely, putting a legal framework around that and having all those multidisciplinary people involved has got to be a positive thing. Professor Hoyano, I would appreciate your thoughts on that.

Professor Hoyano: As I say, whereas I completely respect Professor Owen’s expertise in this as a psychiatrist, for me as a lawyer the question of capacity is a yes or no, necessarily. But capacity is always determined by the Court of Protection in respect of the decision that must be made by the person concerned: do they have the capacity to do it?

When we are talking about a determination of capacity, and also about coercion—which of course is part of capacity in a sense, because capacity is the autonomy of decision making—you are going to be having a very focused inquiry. It is not an inquiry into whether a person has capacity to manage their financial affairs. I probably do not have that capacity, but on something like this I would have capacity. It is important to recognise that it is a yes or no question, which the law has to draw and does draw, depending on the expertise of psychiatrists like Professor Owen, but also forming its own judgment from its own experience, which is why I think the Court of Protection really is the place where this should be.

There is one aspect of the Bill that worries me a lot, and that is the number of people who will be excluded by the provision that the medication must be self-administered. This would mean that Tony Nicklinson, who went all the way to the House of Lords to try to get the right to die, could not have it under this Bill, because he was paralysed. He was a tetraplegic, basically—he was paralysed from the neck down, with limited movement of his head, from a stroke. He lived for seven years with that condition and he would not have been able to self-administer. In fact, when he was denied by the House of Lords—anyone who has seen the Channel 4 programme will have watched him wail in despair—he refused all nutrition and hydration from that point until he died. That was the death he did not want, and I think we need to recognise that there are problems like that. In 2023 in Canada, across the entire country, only five patients opted to self-administer the medication—only five. Even when patients were capable of doing it, they wanted the doctor to do it instead, so let us remember that as well, please.

Dr Ward: Can I make a quick point about self-administration? This is something that in Scotland we looked into in great detail. In Scotland, we chose self-administration specifically because it does not just include ingestion or swallowing. There is a range of ways in which you can self-administer the medication, and I am happy to provide that information to the Committee if that would be helpful.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q Professor Owen, can I probe a little more something that you raised before—the interaction of potential impairment, potential family dynamics and so on in a way that is not malign, but that you think is a consideration? We have heard some evidence in the course of this week about whether there would be any benefit from a more multidisciplinary approach that could make a more rounded, psychosocial assessment of someone’s situation. That would be less about the clear test of whether there is capacity under the Mental Capacity Act and more about the wider considerations of those interactions. I just wonder whether the inclusion of, say, social workers or mental health professionals as part of a multidisciplinary approach would give you any reassurance on those points that you made.

Professor Owen: Good question. On the point about that interaction issue, it is not just me picking it up; it is the courts and the Court of Protection particularly. If you are interested, it is footnote (11) in the written submission from the Complex Life and Death Decisions group. The point that you make is well taken from my point of view. You have two doctors, essentially, doing the assessment. Some doctors can be very good at assessing social circumstances; some are not so good. I think it would be preferable to try to get a law that gets sight of social circumstances; one way of doing that may be to insert a requirement that a suitably experienced social worker is involved, so that there is some sensitivity to those contextual, relational, interpersonal effects, which, as I know you are aware, can be very subtle. A lot of these things are extremely difficult to pick up. They are easy to miss and, even when you are aware of them, there can be dilemmas about what to do with them.

Professor Hoyano: Might I add a postscript to that? A model that we could consider in this context is CAFCASS—the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service—in the family courts. It is a body of experts—civil servants, in effect—but they are independent and they are accustomed to dealing with specific context with social workers, for example. They investigate what should happen to a child in public law or private law proceedings. It occurs to me that something like that—a report from an equivalent body to the solicitor’s office, which I mentioned before—could be a very good way of building that in, because I completely agree that social workers are likely to be more professionally attuned, by virtue of their training and experience, to looking at the wider context.

[The Chair]

We have two more minutes for questions and answers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Shastri-Hurst]

Q Professor Preston, in your written submission, you effectively propose reversing the presumption of capacity that is set out in the Mental Capacity Act. Could you go into a little more detail about that and the reasons behind that proposal?

Professor Preston: The submission was with my colleague, Professor Suzanne Ost, who is a professor of law, and that very much came from Suzanne.

I think the aim is to have that bit of extra concern, so that we do not presume capacity, but instead almost presume that there is not capacity. It would be a bit like if you go to A&E with a child and they have a fracture. The presumption there is to ask, “How did this happen?” and “Do we need to rule anything out?”, rather than just assuming “Well, they have just fallen over” and that things are exactly as said. There is an element of that, where we are not presuming capacity, but are actually going into it and switching it around within the training to ask, “Do they have capacity?”. I think that would be a change within the Mental Capacity Act.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q Dr Richards, in the light of your research, could you say a little bit more about the weight that individuals dying place on the importance of autonomy and how that is weighed up against other considerations around safeguarding and so on?

Dr Richards: There are two things that I would like to say about this. The first is that it is individually specific, which probably will not come as a shock to you. The evidence shows that the people who request assisted dying are people who have a particular preference for control in their life, and they have had this preference across their life, so it is part of their identity. In that sense, it is a personal preference as opposed to a deficit in palliative care, which is what we hear a lot about.

The second thing is that, with regards to autonomy, proponents of assisted dying are very keen to emphasise that this is an autonomous decision, which it is, and would have to be by virtue of the law. However, that does not mean that families, loved ones and close social relations are not really embedded in that decision making. It is important to think of autonomy as relational rather than as an isolated making a decision not in relation to others. It is also important to think about the impacts on the family when you are thinking about the guidelines that would go along with any legislation.

[Danny Kruger]

Q This is a question for Claire Williams. It was interesting that you said you were not aware of what drugs might be used in assisted dying. We obviously do not yet know what will be proposed here if we pass this law. There are lots of different combinations of drugs used in other jurisdictions, and we do not know much about them. I think that is fair to say.

What we do know is that there is a combination. In two thirds of deaths in Belgium, I think, and in the United States, where I have visited, the first drug that is used is an anaesthetic, and then there is a paralysing agent. A paralytic drug is introduced, which often gives the impression that the patient is having a peaceful death, but we do not actually know what is going on beneath the surface. I am afraid to say that, from studies into people who have been on death row who have been legally executed, there is often evidence of brain trauma. Can you speak to this at all? We know that in a minority of cases real complications occur—it often takes a very long time for the patient to die, and there is vomiting and all sorts of distress. How can we improve what we know about the actual process of dying, and how can we reduce these terrible complications?

Claire Williams: I can only apologise, because I am here to give evidence about a model for collective decision making rather than about my experience with regard to these drugs. As you say, the potential side effects and prolonged deaths are something we will need to consider for these cases. We need to take evidence from other countries that have had this experiences. Apologies, but I cannot comment on this particular aspect.

--- Later in debate ---

[Danny Kruger]

Q Professor Preston, I wonder what you think about this idea of a panel instead of the High Court judge. A lot of Members who voted for the Bill on Second Reading did so partly on the basis that there would be that judicial stage. Although we can all recognise the value of having more expertise involved, the role of the judge is essentially adversarial in principle, and the public would expect it to be. They would be hearing arguments and taking evidence. Do you think that the Bill would be safe without that? Secondly, do you not agree that, as we heard earlier from a law professor, the right of appeal should be in both directions? There should be the right of appeal against an approval as well as against a denial?

Professor Preston: I think we suggested a panel. I submitted some evidence after the last Select Committee inquiry about a panel that could operate outside. Lots of the reasons I gave were about helping to navigate, helping to identify doctors and helping to support people who feel vulnerable within the NHS.

What increasingly came out from the idea of a judge is the question of what exactly their role is and the fact that there is no right of appeal. However, if you had a panel, that would give a much more thorough understanding of what is happening. The additional safeguard is that the panel could say there needs to be a palliative care consultation. You would have to be sure the doctors who are doing it are, based on their register, qualified to have a palliative care conversation so that all options have been explored.

My fear is about if we do not specify what training is or what these people’s expertise is. Most doctors do not know too much about palliative care or what the options are. You do not need to see a palliative care doctor, as a palliative care nurse can talk you through it, but the additional power of that panel is that it could be answerable to the court or some other sort of assisted dying tribunal.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q I have a question for Dr Richards. I note from your biography that you have done work studying the phenomenon of old age rational suicide. I noted your comments before about research suggesting that people who seek assisted death have got particular, strong preferences for control and agency at the end of life. We know there are around 650 people with terminal illnesses who take their own lives every year at the moment. I wonder, particularly given your work on old age suicide, what would be your assessment on how assisted dying becoming an option here in the UK might affect those statistics.

Dr Richards: The Bill covers terminal illness only. It includes people with six months left to live, so it would not include the phenomenon of old age rational suicide, which is where you want to end your own life for reasons of the accumulated losses of old age, or because you feel you have lived a completed life. This really relates to people who are in what is called the fourth age of life. It is a social and cultural phenomenon that there are people in the fourth age of life who want to wrap things up on their own terms, but this is a separate phenomenon to people who are in a natural dying phase of life and want to accelerate that. It is different.

After you legalise assisted dying for terminally ill people, you will still get older people taking their own life. The highest demographic for completed suicides is people over the age of 70. It is a phenomenon around the world, but it is a qualitatively different phenomenon to people in a natural dying phase. If we look at the data on who requests assisted dying, it is people who want control and agency, and they may even have thought about it as a mode of dying that they want to access before they even had a terminal illness. They might have always imagined that, but that is in conjunction with various forms of suffering that they will be experiencing. It is not just personal preference; they are also suffering, and suffering is very multi-faceted and multi-dimensional at end of life. It has various different components, not just physical.

[The Chair]

Before we move to the next panel, is there anyone else who has pressing questions, or would you prefer to have a five-minute comfort break?

--- Later in debate ---

[Tom Gordon]

Q Thank you all for coming here and sharing your personal experiences. I think it really adds to this, and it is why we are all here. My question is about access, which is one of the conversations surrounding the Bill, and how, if we do not legislate now, we might not see another debate or Bill brought forward for potentially a decade or longer. What are your views on that? I think some people see it as a point from which we either will progress or will not. Do you feel that this needs to be a continuing conversation, particularly with regard to palliative care and the experiences that your loved ones might have had in that system?

Liz Reed: As I said, my brother died in a hospice in Australia, where the hospices are extremely well funded, and the care he received was sensational. The team and the staff in that hospice made the time he had in there. Obviously, it was not amazing, because he was dying, but for a really difficult situation, it was comfortable for his family, and he had young children. You could not fault the care and access to the medication. We as a family, after he died, went back to the hospice to say, “This was changing for us and for him.”

But it did not change what was happening to my brother. He went from a hospital to a hospice, and he had a date planned for his death. He then actually changed his mind and extended it, because it was better than being in a hospital and the hospice care was great, but he still landed at the same point of saying, “This is not living.” It was not what he wanted, and not what he wanted. From a personal perspective, when he was diagnosed, we said, “You’ve got to come home.” But actually, I think, “Oh my God, what would have happened to him? How long would he have had to go on? How long would his children have had to watch him?” He was only 39 and his children were young, and they did not have to—they still remember their dad. For him, for his wife and for our family, I would not change anything.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q Pat, if the Bill, as it is currently drafted, had been in place in your family’s situation, what difference would that have made to your family’s experience?

Pat Malone: In all three cases, it would have improved their lives and their deaths. My father died at the age of 85 from pancreatic cancer. He asked me to help him kill himself while he was in hospital in the last three or four weeks of his life. Obviously, I was not able to do so. He suggested that I put poison in his water, which I had no idea how to action. I spoke to his consultant and asked whether he could do anything to hasten his end, and he said, “No, no, no, I can’t.” After that, he lasted another three weeks and he had a horrendous death. It has scarred our family to this day.

My brother contracted the same disease, pancreatic cancer, and having seen my father die, he—having gone to six doctors and asked them whether they could help him end his life; he was under home hospice palliative care at that time—contrived his own suicide. Unfortunately, he asked his wife to sit and hold his hand while he died, as a result of which there was a police investigation into collusion. She and her daughter, who was also in the house at the time, were not cleared for eight months, during which they were interviewed repeatedly about anomalies and what they did or did not know. It was absolutely unconscionable to pile that on top of their grief, at a time when they had just lost their father and husband.

My sister’s death, having seen those two deaths, was much easier. She got motor neurone disease and was not really suffering in the way that my father and brother had been. She knew that her end was going to be as a live brain in a dead body, and that was the horror that she faced. From the beginning, she was fixed on going to Dignitas, which she did. It was not easy because, after the example of my brother’s family, she would not allow anybody in her family to have anything to do with the arrangements that she had to make, which were quite complicated and became ever more difficult for her. First, she could not drive a car any more and was going around on a mobility scooter, gathering endless documents and having all the tests that you need to have. Ultimately, she said, “This is my golden ticket.” When she was accepted by Dignitas, she said that it was the greatest relief of her life. She said, “I know I am not going to get cancer or dementia. I’m going to die painlessly at a time and place of my choosing.”

That is exactly what she did, but she died 1,000 miles from home. She should have died in her house with her family, and her dogs on the bed. She should not have been denied that. Had this Bill been enacted in her time, it would have been a much easier operation. The problem with this legislation mainly is that it is so long overdue. There are people now who are in that position. You may think our family is star crossed because we have had three deaths like that, but I think we are just a normal family. It is happening all the time. Chris Whitty talked on Monday about how we should not rush into this. We are not rushing into it; we are at the back of the queue, really.

[Rachel Hopkins]

Q Thank you all for sharing your family stories today. It is really moving. Julie, I want to ask about your experience in Spain and how you found that particular process in comparison with what we have in the Bill. How did it work? What was positive or difficult for you?

Julie Thienpont: Guido had decided right from the word go, even before he got sick, that that was the way he would want to end his life, if there was a possibility of it. He was from Belgium originally, so he expressed a wish that if ever he needed it, he would like to go back there.

The law in Spain is very similar to the Bill, which I have read through countless times. There are a lot of similarities. There were very rigorous checks. It involved much paperwork, counselling and family liaison. The difference was that it went before a board, so it was a panel that would allow or not allow the decision—it was not decided in a court. That would be the main difference, but the process was rigorous. It was slightly difficult for me, because although I can speak Spanish, the terminology was frequently more difficult, so they very kindly translated for me. They explained everything: what would happen and how it would happen, if it happened. It was a big celebration for Guy when he was actually granted this. They also told us that he could change his mind after he had made the decision, should he wish to. He did once. It was me who asked him to do that, because I did not feel he was sick enough, which sounds a bit silly, I know.

He was an intensely private person. The palliative care in the part of Spain where we were is excellent, but it was quite irrelevant for him because he had already expressed that he wanted to die at home. We lived up a mountain; we were quite remote. Being such a private person, he never wanted to be in a situation where somebody else had to see him in any vulnerable situations, especially with personal hygiene and so on—even me, although I was able to help him in many ways. I had to do a lot of procedures for him, after being trained to do so, but he was more than happy with the situation of having assisted dying once it was granted. He did not need any other sort of care, although we still had a nurse coming every few days and the family doctor came up at least once a week. That does not sound much, but he did not want her any more often than that.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Order. I am going to let you continue, but that question is out of scope. Is there anything else you want to say, Mr Malone?

Pat Malone: I have said that as far as meddling with the Bill is concerned, I would like to see it pass as it is without too much delay.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q I have a question for Mr Malone. The Bill as drafted talks about the commencement period and how quickly it would commence in the UK if Parliament passed it. There have been some suggestions that we should delay the commencement in order for improvements to palliative care or other such things to be made. Could you speak to your experience on that and give your opinion?

Pat Malone: I think that both my sister and brother had more than adequate palliative care. My sister, particularly—she was taken under the wing of the Macmillan nurses, even though she did not have cancer, and they were absolutely marvellous. Her GP was brilliant as well: behind her all the way for the whole year. She could not really have done it without her.

The NHS was excellent. In fact, my sister was used as a diagnostic tool, or diagnostic test, by NHS surgeons who were teaching medical students. She would be put in front of medical students and they would be asked what was wrong with her. Given that MND is normally associated with young men with brain trauma and so forth, it encouraged them to widen their appreciation of these diseases. It meant that she met NHS specialists at a particular level. She really wanted for nothing. She had a stairlift put in her house in short order. She had the mobility scooters and all the gimcracks that you have in your bathroom to help you get out of the bath and so forth. Above all, from the Macmillan nurses in Blyth, she had moral support. These are no-nonsense people who will walk through a wall if there is something that you need, and that is wonderful to have.

So there was no palliative care issue with my sister. She never needed any pain control. She had everything she needed. It did not change her mind one bit. I would like to see palliative care divorced from the idea of assisted dying. What she needed was assistance to die. What my brother needed was assistance to die. Palliative care was a side issue. It obviously comes into it, but if you could look at assisted dying on its own, I think that would be useful.

[The Chair]

Are there any more questions?

Julie Thienpont: Would it be okay if I said something?

--- Later in debate ---

[Naz Shah]

Q My question is to Dr Price. We heard yesterday from Professor House and this afternoon from Professor Owen, who were talking about capacity and coercion. They also talked about how different people’s life experiences impact their ability and their state of mind, and the lack of research or evidence in that area—the courts are grappling with those issues at the moment. Is there any evidence about the effect on patients’ mental health when they have a diagnosis of a terminal or serious physical illness?

Dr Price: There is a lot of research evidence around depression in people with palliative care needs and people nearing the end of life. We know that depression is common, and across a number of studies it is at around 20%—much more common than in the general population. We know that depression is strongly associated with a wish to hasten death, and that if depression is found and treated in that group of patients, there will be significant change in the wish to hasten death.

There are a number of associations other than depression with a wish to hasten death, and they include difficult symptom experience, poor functional status—needing a lot of help with things—and being socially isolated. Those are really key ones. They also include a sense of loss of dignity and feeling like a burden on others. These things can all come together to make life feel very unbearable. We know that there is also an overlap between a wish to hasten death, which is a response to suffering, and feeling that one is better off dead, ending one’s own life or harming oneself. I was involved in a study where we asked people both the wording of “a wish to hasten death” and the suicide question from the PHQ9, which is a depression screening tool. Those who had a wish to hasten death were 18 times more likely to also feel suicidal, according to the psychiatric definition, than people who did not have a wish to hasten death. There is a strong association.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q My question is for Dr Price as well, please. We heard in the week from the chief medical officer earlier, who said that he was “relieved” that this Act based capacity on the Mental Capacity Act, noting that it already provides that

“the more serious the decision, the greater the level of capacity”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 30, Q3.]

and that it is used in tens, if not hundreds, of life and death cases in the NHS every week. The example he gave was someone refusing blood products that they would need to continue their life. In the light of that, I suppose I am a bit confused about your evidence saying that the MCA is not suitable for life or death decisions of this type. Do you think the MCA is not fit for purpose for those current life or death decisions that are being made, or is there something about the life or death decisions that would be made in an assisted dying context that makes that different?

Dr Price: The assumption that the Mental Capacity Act can translate neatly into this specific decision without a really clear sense of what that would look like in clinical practice is something that needs more careful thought.

I was involved in research in this area, and one of the things that I did was to scrutinise the concept of capacity as discussed in a number of forums—for example, the Commission on Assisted Dying, discussions in the House of Lords, and also interviews with doctors in England and Wales and in Oregon. There is a broad sense of what capacity is. For some, it is a very tight, cognitive definition that would mean that in practice, in assisted dying, most people would be found to be capacitous. Those who advocate a much broader sense of what capacity is—these can be contained within the framework of the Mental Capacity Act—would advocate a much broader sense of what that is, thinking about values and the person’s life experience and making more judgments, really, about that person’s life in a general sense.

What I do not think we have really pinned down is what concept of capacity is operating in the thoughts behind this Bill. Is it enough to say that we will essentially refer to the Mental Capacity Act, or do we need to be more specific about what is capacity for this decision? Is it sufficient to say, “We will refer out”, or do we need it on the face of the Bill so that anybody assessing capacity for this decision knows exactly what they should be doing and exactly how they should be having that conversation? Even though you may be operating within a legal framework, I think that the actual conversation —the actual content—will vary across practitioners. Is that good enough? Is that sufficient? Is that a good enough standard? When I do a capacity assessment, I have in mind that it may be appealed against—that is somebody’s right—and it should be available for scrutiny by a court. Essentially, that is the standard we are looking for, so it needs to be clear where the standard lies.

[Kit Malthouse]

Q I also want to explore this issue of capacity a little further with Dr Price, because I share my colleague’s slight confusion.

You talked about a percentage who wish to hasten death. The people we are talking about are facing death in any event within a foreseeable period, and they may be contemplating a death that is not pleasant. Some of the characteristics you talked about are presumably to be expected and may not necessarily interfere with their ability to make rational decisions in what they believe is their own best interest. In those circumstances, I do not understand why the Mental Capacity Act would not apply. I understand that you may be coming at it from a practitioner point of view, but if I make a decision to decline treatment to hasten my own death, I am not sure I would necessarily see that as qualitatively different, from the point of view of my own capacity, from saying, “I know I am going to die in three months’ time and I would like you to assist me to die slightly earlier.” Why are the two qualitatively different, from an MCA point of view? At the moment, one would be dealt with through the MCA, but you are saying the second would not necessarily be.

Dr Price: You are equating a refusal of treatment, in capacity terms, to hastening death by assisted dying. If those two things are equated, in terms of the gravity and the quality of the decision, the Mental Capacity Act may well be sufficient, but there are differences. There are differences in the information that the person would need and what they would need to understand. They would need to be able to understand the impact of the substance they are taking and what the likely positives and negatives of that are—all of those things.

The informed consent process is different from a refusal of treatment, and the informed consent process feeds into the capacity assessment. This is an area where we need to think carefully about whether the processes of the Mental Capacity Act, as it stands, map neatly enough on to that decision to make it workable.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Tidball]

Q Dan, I am really keen that we ensure that if the Bill passes, the voices of disabled people are continually involved in understanding its impact, particularly on the issue that you have just raised. Earlier, we heard evidence about implementation taskforces that are used in other jurisdictions. I am considering tabling an amendment on an advisory council. How might we ensure that the voices of people with learning disabilities can be included in such a body?

Dan Scorer: There are a couple of things that I would like to say in response. One is about clause 31, on guidance from chief medical officers. Immediately, I would say that people with a learning disability should be involved in the development of that guidance from chief medical officers. That guidance will be key to many of the issues that we have discussed.

Clause 35 is about the review of the Act. The lived experience of people is absolutely vital to that. The Bill says that it will be five years until we have that review. Our view is that that is far too long. If the Bill becomes law and if there are really serious issues and discrimination taking place against people, we will want to know that a lot earlier than in five years’ time, and we will want action to be taken. Our suggestion is that review should be earlier. We would want to see strong representation from patient groups across that, as well as from people who have been involved in the process, such as family members, advocates and clinicians, to make sure that if serious issues are being raised, they can be picked up early and addressed.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q It is late, and I am far from being an expert on Welsh devolution, but I want to ask Professor Lewis a question, not least because we have not come to him for a little while.

Although it is not my area, I absolutely note the concerns and the discussion about respecting the democratic will of the Senedd in these matters. Would you suggest any potential avenues in the Bill to incorporate an element of positive affirmation by the Senedd, or its consent? What do you suggest we look at?

Professor Lewis: Formally, there is a need in any event for a legislative consent motion in relation to the specific bits I mentioned earlier, I have suggested one potential avenue, which is that the Senedd and Welsh Government take on responsibility for whether and when the Act commences in Wales. Another option might be to do a thorough “think once, think twice, think Wales” review to see to what extent other functions of the Secretary of State might be better exercised in Wales by the Welsh Ministers. That is a non-exhaustive list, but I hope it helps.

[Naz Shah]

Q Dr Price, you talked in your earlier evidence about depression. One Committee member suggested that 20% of people were on antidepressants; actually, the factual position is that 10% to 11% of the adults in this country are on antidepressant medication, according to the latest statistics. To be clear, are you saying that people who are depressed are more likely to ask for or go down the road of assisted dying?

Dr Price: The evidence that we have from research—this is in populations who would fulfil the criteria in terms of terminal illness—is that the prevalence of depression is around 20%. That is across a number of populations. It is associated with a wish to hasten death. Depression might impact upon that person’s decision making; I am not saying that it absolutely would, but it might. Also, treatment might change their view. We know that there is a strong association, for example, between pain and a wish to hasten death. Unresolved physical symptoms make people want to die, and when that pain is better, people no longer feel that way.

That is borne out in my clinical practice. We will get urgent referrals to see somebody who wants to die and who they are very concerned about. Then the pain is under control: we see them that day or the next day and they say, “Do you know what? The pain’s better. I don’t feel like that any more.” When we think about symptoms, we need to think carefully about what is treatable and what is remediable. That may be about psychiatric interventions, but it is often about a biological, psychological and social approach.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Sixth sitting)

Lewis Atkinson Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 30th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

Q Dr Furst, can I ask a follow-up about anorexia? I know that anorexia is not classified as a terminal illness, but long-term starvation can lead to severe physical health conditions, and patients may end up in palliative care. Do you have any experience of those cases in Australia?

Dr Furst: We have experience of those cases in palliative care, but I would still say that they are not eligible for voluntary assisted dying. None of us would feel comfortable, because the condition has to be irreversible. Capacity-wise, you would have to make sure that they had capacity, and I would question whether someone that is anorexic truly has capacity around their illness.

[Lewis Atkinson (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

Q Mr Greenwich, we are minded that as well as passing really good legislation we want to get public confidence behind this. We have heard a level of concern from disabled people’s representative bodies about the inadvertent implications of this law for disabled people. Were those concerns shared when you took your legislation through, and how it has gone since the implementation of the legislation?

Alex Greenwich: In New South Wales, and across Australia, having a disability or complex mental health issue like anorexia does not make you eligible at all for voluntary assisted dying. The legislation we are dealing with and you are dealing with is not for people with a disability or anorexia nervosa, and not for people who feel they are a burden. It is for people with a terminal illness who may want the choice of a death that is better than what the illness would otherwise provide.

We worked closely with disability groups in New South Wales. Their main concern was that they would be treated equally in terms of access to the law if a person with a disability had a terminal illness. The key point is that this legislation is a safeguard to those concerns. To the point about people who are starving themselves, that is happening today in the UK because people do not have access to voluntary assisted dying. They are starving themselves to death rather than accessing a regulated scheme where they can discuss all their options and choices.

[Jake Richards (Rother Valley) (Lab)]

Q This question is probably best for Alex. Yesterday we heard evidence about the health inequalities in our society and fears that they would be exacerbated by the introduction of assisted dying. What was the experience in Australia?

Alex Greenwich: If I think of our health system and how we adopted voluntary assisted dying, like all health systems we were under pressure following the covid pandemic. By legislating in this space you give your health system the priority of dealing with this, making sure doctors are trained to be able to address it and that there is a good implementation period. I believe the Bill has two years, and I think that is completely appropriate to make sure your health system gets up to speed. When it comes to end-of-life choices and healthcare, voluntary assisted dying provides a great deal of honesty and safeguards.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Seventh sitting)

Lewis Atkinson Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 30th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Danny Kruger (East Wiltshire) (Con)]

Q Professor Hoyano, what do you think about the indemnity against civil liability in the Bill? Do you think it is appropriate to indemnify all doctors, even if they have made a woefully bad diagnosis, botched a prescription or, in some cases, actually caused some harm? Do you think it is appropriate that they be excluded from civil liability?

Professor Hoyano: I always have a problem when tort liability is ruled out by legislation. I think that the accountability of medical professionals, and indeed all medical practitioners in private practice, lies at the heart of how our national health service works, so I have a difficulty with that. I would have to ask Ms Leadbeater whether this is correct, but perhaps the intention was to ensure that members of the family who, for example, were against assisted dying in principle, would not be able to bring an action that could be vexatious against a doctor who had complied with the legislation and should therefore not be troubled with that type of litigation. It might be that that provision could be refined.

[Lewis Atkinson (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

Q Professor Hoyano, the Bill would establish offences relating to coercion, pressure and so on. In the processes set out, there are a number of checkpoints, for want of a better term, at which a person seeking assisted dying may talk to doctors or others. What are your observations on how the criminal construct of offences is linked to the different opportunities for an individual seeking assisted dying to have conversations? In your view, is it likely to lead to the identification of those offences? How does that contrast with some of the considerations at the moment, where people are withdrawing treatment in a life or death situation, for example?

Professor Hoyano: It is interesting that a number of Members of Parliament who are practising physicians pointed out in the debate that they have to evaluate freedom of decision making and absence of coercion in many different medical contexts. I point particularly to the withdrawal of medical treatment at the request of the patient, even if that will inevitably lead to death. It is considered to be a fundamental human right that lies at the heart of medical law that a patient has personal autonomy to decide what to do with their body and whether or not to accept medical treatment, provided that they have the capacity to do so and are acting without coercion from external sources. Doctors have to make those assessments all the time.

I suggest that it is perhaps a convenient fallacy to say that pulling the plug on a respirator or stopping artificial nutrition and hydration is a negative act, whereas giving a patient a syringe to end their own life is a positive act. I realise that with the Tony Bland case it was convenient to say that, but there is no doubt that most people on the street would say that pulling the plug on a respirator is a positive act, and yet doctors and nurses are required to do that every day in the NHS, because that is the patient’s autonomy. If there is any question about either coercion or capacity, the Court of Protection steps in and has the jurisdiction to make those decisions.

The Court of Protection should, I believe, be the court that is supervising this, not the High Court. Three levels of judges sit in the Court of Protection; I suggest that a High Court judge be specified, which would mean a statutory amendment to extend the jurisdiction of the Court of Protection. The Court of Protection makes decisions every day on whether a patient has the mental capacity to make decisions about their own medical treatment. It is accustomed to doing that, and one aspect of that analysis is whether the patient is being coerced externally.

Generally speaking, when a patient says, “I don’t want to be on a respirator any longer; I know I’m going to die,” we do not ask questions. As I understand it, it is not part of the protocol to say, “Are you doing this because you are worried about being a burden on the NHS?”, because their personal autonomy is the overriding principle governing medical decision making in relation to the patient. I hope that that answers your question.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

Q Professor Owen, written evidence from the Royal College of Psychiatrists states that 65% of psychiatrists

“are not confident that consent can act as an adequate safeguard”.

On mental capacity, it says:

“These decisions are opinions with a margin of error and are time specific. A person’s capacity can change”.

What is your view?

Professor Owen: That is important evidence, because it comes from a body of practitioners who are very used to doing mental capacity assessments. I think that the vast majority of that sample were consultant psychiatrists, so the pool, as it were, was one of considerable experience. That conveys questionable confidence in the consent processes, of which mental capacity is part, in relation to the decision to end one’s life. It is significant evidence about the confidence that is out there among experienced practitioners.

It is true that psychiatrists—liaison psychiatrists particularly; I have had experience with this myself, clinically and in relation to Court of Protection matters—will be involved with assessing capacity to make decisions to refuse life-sustaining treatment. Those decisions can be quite vexed and can go to the court, and the court can struggle with them.

An important question for the Committee is the distinction—or the similarity and difference, but I think that there are key differences—between the decision to refuse a treatment that is life-sustaining, of which the Court of Protection does have experience, and the decision to decide to end one’s own life. They are conceptually different decisions. I can outline some of the similarities and the differences now, but it might be helpful to take submissions specifically on that question, because it is very important and I think that there is some confusion about it. If you would find it helpful, the complex life and death decisions group could write a statement to elaborate on some of the issues. In summary, I think that that evidence from the Royal College of Psychiatrists is significant, in terms of the confidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kim Leadbeater]

Q This has been an incredibly helpful panel, so thank you for all your expertise.

Let me come back to the content of the Bill, and to some of your points, Professor Owen. In terms of capacity and coercion, I think we are absolutely having these really important conversations. What concerns me a little bit, though, is whether we are saying we are not confident that two doctors, potentially a psychiatrist and an oncologist, and a judge can make assessments of capacity and coercion between them. What does that mean for things that are happening at the moment? We have talked about the withdrawal of end of life treatment and those things; those assessments must be being done now, all the time, but at the moment there is no legal framework around that. Surely, putting a legal framework around that and having all those multidisciplinary people involved has got to be a positive thing. Professor Hoyano, I would appreciate your thoughts on that.

Professor Hoyano: As I say, whereas I completely respect Professor Owen’s expertise in this as a psychiatrist, for me as a lawyer the question of capacity is a yes or no, necessarily. But capacity is always determined by the Court of Protection in respect of the decision that must be made by the person concerned: do they have the capacity to do it?

When we are talking about a determination of capacity, and also about coercion—which of course is part of capacity in a sense, because capacity is the autonomy of decision making—you are going to be having a very focused inquiry. It is not an inquiry into whether a person has capacity to manage their financial affairs. I probably do not have that capacity, but on something like this I would have capacity. It is important to recognise that it is a yes or no question, which the law has to draw and does draw, depending on the expertise of psychiatrists like Professor Owen, but also forming its own judgment from its own experience, which is why I think the Court of Protection really is the place where this should be.

There is one aspect of the Bill that worries me a lot, and that is the number of people who will be excluded by the provision that the medication must be self-administered. This would mean that Tony Nicklinson, who went all the way to the House of Lords to try to get the right to die, could not have it under this Bill, because he was paralysed. He was a tetraplegic, basically—he was paralysed from the neck down, with limited movement of his head, from a stroke. He lived for seven years with that condition and he would not have been able to self-administer. In fact, when he was denied by the House of Lords—anyone who has seen the Channel 4 programme will have watched him wail in despair—he refused all nutrition and hydration from that point until he died. That was the death he did not want, and I think we need to recognise that there are problems like that. In 2023 in Canada, across the entire country, only five patients opted to self-administer the medication—only five. Even when patients were capable of doing it, they wanted the doctor to do it instead, so let us remember that as well, please.

Dr Ward: Can I make a quick point about self-administration? This is something that in Scotland we looked into in great detail. In Scotland, we chose self-administration specifically because it does not just include ingestion or swallowing. There is a range of ways in which you can self-administer the medication, and I am happy to provide that information to the Committee if that would be helpful.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q Professor Owen, can I probe a little more something that you raised before—the interaction of potential impairment, potential family dynamics and so on in a way that is not malign, but that you think is a consideration? We have heard some evidence in the course of this week about whether there would be any benefit from a more multidisciplinary approach that could make a more rounded, psychosocial assessment of someone’s situation. That would be less about the clear test of whether there is capacity under the Mental Capacity Act and more about the wider considerations of those interactions. I just wonder whether the inclusion of, say, social workers or mental health professionals as part of a multidisciplinary approach would give you any reassurance on those points that you made.

Professor Owen: Good question. On the point about that interaction issue, it is not just me picking it up; it is the courts and the Court of Protection particularly. If you are interested, it is footnote (11) in the written submission from the Complex Life and Death Decisions group. The point that you make is well taken from my point of view. You have two doctors, essentially, doing the assessment. Some doctors can be very good at assessing social circumstances; some are not so good. I think it would be preferable to try to get a law that gets sight of social circumstances; one way of doing that may be to insert a requirement that a suitably experienced social worker is involved, so that there is some sensitivity to those contextual, relational, interpersonal effects, which, as I know you are aware, can be very subtle. A lot of these things are extremely difficult to pick up. They are easy to miss and, even when you are aware of them, there can be dilemmas about what to do with them.

Professor Hoyano: Might I add a postscript to that? A model that we could consider in this context is CAFCASS—the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service—in the family courts. It is a body of experts—civil servants, in effect—but they are independent and they are accustomed to dealing with specific context with social workers, for example. They investigate what should happen to a child in public law or private law proceedings. It occurs to me that something like that—a report from an equivalent body to the solicitor’s office, which I mentioned before—could be a very good way of building that in, because I completely agree that social workers are likely to be more professionally attuned, by virtue of their training and experience, to looking at the wider context.

[The Chair]

We have two more minutes for questions and answers.

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[Dr Shastri-Hurst]

Q Professor Preston, in your written submission, you effectively propose reversing the presumption of capacity that is set out in the Mental Capacity Act. Could you go into a little more detail about that and the reasons behind that proposal?

Professor Preston: The submission was with my colleague, Professor Suzanne Ost, who is a professor of law, and that very much came from Suzanne.

I think the aim is to have that bit of extra concern, so that we do not presume capacity, but instead almost presume that there is not capacity. It would be a bit like if you go to A&E with a child and they have a fracture. The presumption there is to ask, “How did this happen?” and “Do we need to rule anything out?”, rather than just assuming “Well, they have just fallen over” and that things are exactly as said. There is an element of that, where we are not presuming capacity, but are actually going into it and switching it around within the training to ask, “Do they have capacity?”. I think that would be a change within the Mental Capacity Act.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q Dr Richards, in the light of your research, could you say a little bit more about the weight that individuals dying place on the importance of autonomy and how that is weighed up against other considerations around safeguarding and so on?

Dr Richards: There are two things that I would like to say about this. The first is that it is individually specific, which probably will not come as a shock to you. The evidence shows that the people who request assisted dying are people who have a particular preference for control in their life, and they have had this preference across their life, so it is part of their identity. In that sense, it is a personal preference as opposed to a deficit in palliative care, which is what we hear a lot about.

The second thing is that, with regards to autonomy, proponents of assisted dying are very keen to emphasise that this is an autonomous decision, which it is, and would have to be by virtue of the law. However, that does not mean that families, loved ones and close social relations are not really embedded in that decision making. It is important to think of autonomy as relational rather than as an isolated making a decision not in relation to others. It is also important to think about the impacts on the family when you are thinking about the guidelines that would go along with any legislation.

[Danny Kruger]

Q This is a question for Claire Williams. It was interesting that you said you were not aware of what drugs might be used in assisted dying. We obviously do not yet know what will be proposed here if we pass this law. There are lots of different combinations of drugs used in other jurisdictions, and we do not know much about them. I think that is fair to say.

What we do know is that there is a combination. In two thirds of deaths in Belgium, I think, and in the United States, where I have visited, the first drug that is used is an anaesthetic, and then there is a paralysing agent. A paralytic drug is introduced, which often gives the impression that the patient is having a peaceful death, but we do not actually know what is going on beneath the surface. I am afraid to say that, from studies into people who have been on death row who have been legally executed, there is often evidence of brain trauma. Can you speak to this at all? We know that in a minority of cases real complications occur—it often takes a very long time for the patient to die, and there is vomiting and all sorts of distress. How can we improve what we know about the actual process of dying, and how can we reduce these terrible complications?

Claire Williams: I can only apologise, because I am here to give evidence about a model for collective decision making rather than about my experience with regard to these drugs. As you say, the potential side effects and prolonged deaths are something we will need to consider for these cases. We need to take evidence from other countries that have had this experiences. Apologies, but I cannot comment on this particular aspect.

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[Danny Kruger]

Q Professor Preston, I wonder what you think about this idea of a panel instead of the High Court judge. A lot of Members who voted for the Bill on Second Reading did so partly on the basis that there would be that judicial stage. Although we can all recognise the value of having more expertise involved, the role of the judge is essentially adversarial in principle, and the public would expect it to be. They would be hearing arguments and taking evidence. Do you think that the Bill would be safe without that? Secondly, do you not agree that, as we heard earlier from a law professor, the right of appeal should be in both directions? There should be the right of appeal against an approval as well as against a denial?

Professor Preston: I think we suggested a panel. I submitted some evidence after the last Select Committee inquiry about a panel that could operate outside. Lots of the reasons I gave were about helping to navigate, helping to identify doctors and helping to support people who feel vulnerable within the NHS.

What increasingly came out from the idea of a judge is the question of what exactly their role is and the fact that there is no right of appeal. However, if you had a panel, that would give a much more thorough understanding of what is happening. The additional safeguard is that the panel could say there needs to be a palliative care consultation. You would have to be sure the doctors who are doing it are, based on their register, qualified to have a palliative care conversation so that all options have been explored.

My fear is about if we do not specify what training is or what these people’s expertise is. Most doctors do not know too much about palliative care or what the options are. You do not need to see a palliative care doctor, as a palliative care nurse can talk you through it, but the additional power of that panel is that it could be answerable to the court or some other sort of assisted dying tribunal.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q I have a question for Dr Richards. I note from your biography that you have done work studying the phenomenon of old age rational suicide. I noted your comments before about research suggesting that people who seek assisted death have got particular, strong preferences for control and agency at the end of life. We know there are around 650 people with terminal illnesses who take their own lives every year at the moment. I wonder, particularly given your work on old age suicide, what would be your assessment on how assisted dying becoming an option here in the UK might affect those statistics.

Dr Richards: The Bill covers terminal illness only. It includes people with six months left to live, so it would not include the phenomenon of old age rational suicide, which is where you want to end your own life for reasons of the accumulated losses of old age, or because you feel you have lived a completed life. This really relates to people who are in what is called the fourth age of life. It is a social and cultural phenomenon that there are people in the fourth age of life who want to wrap things up on their own terms, but this is a separate phenomenon to people who are in a natural dying phase of life and want to accelerate that. It is different.

After you legalise assisted dying for terminally ill people, you will still get older people taking their own life. The highest demographic for completed suicides is people over the age of 70. It is a phenomenon around the world, but it is a qualitatively different phenomenon to people in a natural dying phase. If we look at the data on who requests assisted dying, it is people who want control and agency, and they may even have thought about it as a mode of dying that they want to access before they even had a terminal illness. They might have always imagined that, but that is in conjunction with various forms of suffering that they will be experiencing. It is not just personal preference; they are also suffering, and suffering is very multi-faceted and multi-dimensional at end of life. It has various different components, not just physical.

[The Chair]

Before we move to the next panel, is there anyone else who has pressing questions, or would you prefer to have a five-minute comfort break?

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[Tom Gordon]

Q Thank you all for coming here and sharing your personal experiences. I think it really adds to this, and it is why we are all here. My question is about access, which is one of the conversations surrounding the Bill, and how, if we do not legislate now, we might not see another debate or Bill brought forward for potentially a decade or longer. What are your views on that? I think some people see it as a point from which we either will progress or will not. Do you feel that this needs to be a continuing conversation, particularly with regard to palliative care and the experiences that your loved ones might have had in that system?

Liz Reed: As I said, my brother died in a hospice in Australia, where the hospices are extremely well funded, and the care he received was sensational. The team and the staff in that hospice made the time he had in there. Obviously, it was not amazing, because he was dying, but for a really difficult situation, it was comfortable for his family, and he had young children. You could not fault the care and access to the medication. We as a family, after he died, went back to the hospice to say, “This was changing for us and for him.”

But it did not change what was happening to my brother. He went from a hospital to a hospice, and he had a date planned for his death. He then actually changed his mind and extended it, because it was better than being in a hospital and the hospice care was great, but he still landed at the same point of saying, “This is not living.” It was not what he wanted, and not what he wanted. From a personal perspective, when he was diagnosed, we said, “You’ve got to come home.” But actually, I think, “Oh my God, what would have happened to him? How long would he have had to go on? How long would his children have had to watch him?” He was only 39 and his children were young, and they did not have to—they still remember their dad. For him, for his wife and for our family, I would not change anything.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q Pat, if the Bill, as it is currently drafted, had been in place in your family’s situation, what difference would that have made to your family’s experience?

Pat Malone: In all three cases, it would have improved their lives and their deaths. My father died at the age of 85 from pancreatic cancer. He asked me to help him kill himself while he was in hospital in the last three or four weeks of his life. Obviously, I was not able to do so. He suggested that I put poison in his water, which I had no idea how to action. I spoke to his consultant and asked whether he could do anything to hasten his end, and he said, “No, no, no, I can’t.” After that, he lasted another three weeks and he had a horrendous death. It has scarred our family to this day.

My brother contracted the same disease, pancreatic cancer, and having seen my father die, he—having gone to six doctors and asked them whether they could help him end his life; he was under home hospice palliative care at that time—contrived his own suicide. Unfortunately, he asked his wife to sit and hold his hand while he died, as a result of which there was a police investigation into collusion. She and her daughter, who was also in the house at the time, were not cleared for eight months, during which they were interviewed repeatedly about anomalies and what they did or did not know. It was absolutely unconscionable to pile that on top of their grief, at a time when they had just lost their father and husband.

My sister’s death, having seen those two deaths, was much easier. She got motor neurone disease and was not really suffering in the way that my father and brother had been. She knew that her end was going to be as a live brain in a dead body, and that was the horror that she faced. From the beginning, she was fixed on going to Dignitas, which she did. It was not easy because, after the example of my brother’s family, she would not allow anybody in her family to have anything to do with the arrangements that she had to make, which were quite complicated and became ever more difficult for her. First, she could not drive a car any more and was going around on a mobility scooter, gathering endless documents and having all the tests that you need to have. Ultimately, she said, “This is my golden ticket.” When she was accepted by Dignitas, she said that it was the greatest relief of her life. She said, “I know I am not going to get cancer or dementia. I’m going to die painlessly at a time and place of my choosing.”

That is exactly what she did, but she died 1,000 miles from home. She should have died in her house with her family, and her dogs on the bed. She should not have been denied that. Had this Bill been enacted in her time, it would have been a much easier operation. The problem with this legislation mainly is that it is so long overdue. There are people now who are in that position. You may think our family is star crossed because we have had three deaths like that, but I think we are just a normal family. It is happening all the time. Chris Whitty talked on Monday about how we should not rush into this. We are not rushing into it; we are at the back of the queue, really.

[Rachel Hopkins]

Q Thank you all for sharing your family stories today. It is really moving. Julie, I want to ask about your experience in Spain and how you found that particular process in comparison with what we have in the Bill. How did it work? What was positive or difficult for you?

Julie Thienpont: Guido had decided right from the word go, even before he got sick, that that was the way he would want to end his life, if there was a possibility of it. He was from Belgium originally, so he expressed a wish that if ever he needed it, he would like to go back there.

The law in Spain is very similar to the Bill, which I have read through countless times. There are a lot of similarities. There were very rigorous checks. It involved much paperwork, counselling and family liaison. The difference was that it went before a board, so it was a panel that would allow or not allow the decision—it was not decided in a court. That would be the main difference, but the process was rigorous. It was slightly difficult for me, because although I can speak Spanish, the terminology was frequently more difficult, so they very kindly translated for me. They explained everything: what would happen and how it would happen, if it happened. It was a big celebration for Guy when he was actually granted this. They also told us that he could change his mind after he had made the decision, should he wish to. He did once. It was me who asked him to do that, because I did not feel he was sick enough, which sounds a bit silly, I know.

He was an intensely private person. The palliative care in the part of Spain where we were is excellent, but it was quite irrelevant for him because he had already expressed that he wanted to die at home. We lived up a mountain; we were quite remote. Being such a private person, he never wanted to be in a situation where somebody else had to see him in any vulnerable situations, especially with personal hygiene and so on—even me, although I was able to help him in many ways. I had to do a lot of procedures for him, after being trained to do so, but he was more than happy with the situation of having assisted dying once it was granted. He did not need any other sort of care, although we still had a nurse coming every few days and the family doctor came up at least once a week. That does not sound much, but he did not want her any more often than that.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Order. I am going to let you continue, but that question is out of scope. Is there anything else you want to say, Mr Malone?

Pat Malone: I have said that as far as meddling with the Bill is concerned, I would like to see it pass as it is without too much delay.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q I have a question for Mr Malone. The Bill as drafted talks about the commencement period and how quickly it would commence in the UK if Parliament passed it. There have been some suggestions that we should delay the commencement in order for improvements to palliative care or other such things to be made. Could you speak to your experience on that and give your opinion?

Pat Malone: I think that both my sister and brother had more than adequate palliative care. My sister, particularly—she was taken under the wing of the Macmillan nurses, even though she did not have cancer, and they were absolutely marvellous. Her GP was brilliant as well: behind her all the way for the whole year. She could not really have done it without her.

The NHS was excellent. In fact, my sister was used as a diagnostic tool, or diagnostic test, by NHS surgeons who were teaching medical students. She would be put in front of medical students and they would be asked what was wrong with her. Given that MND is normally associated with young men with brain trauma and so forth, it encouraged them to widen their appreciation of these diseases. It meant that she met NHS specialists at a particular level. She really wanted for nothing. She had a stairlift put in her house in short order. She had the mobility scooters and all the gimcracks that you have in your bathroom to help you get out of the bath and so forth. Above all, from the Macmillan nurses in Blyth, she had moral support. These are no-nonsense people who will walk through a wall if there is something that you need, and that is wonderful to have.

So there was no palliative care issue with my sister. She never needed any pain control. She had everything she needed. It did not change her mind one bit. I would like to see palliative care divorced from the idea of assisted dying. What she needed was assistance to die. What my brother needed was assistance to die. Palliative care was a side issue. It obviously comes into it, but if you could look at assisted dying on its own, I think that would be useful.

[The Chair]

Are there any more questions?

Julie Thienpont: Would it be okay if I said something?

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[Naz Shah]

Q My question is to Dr Price. We heard yesterday from Professor House and this afternoon from Professor Owen, who were talking about capacity and coercion. They also talked about how different people’s life experiences impact their ability and their state of mind, and the lack of research or evidence in that area—the courts are grappling with those issues at the moment. Is there any evidence about the effect on patients’ mental health when they have a diagnosis of a terminal or serious physical illness?

Dr Price: There is a lot of research evidence around depression in people with palliative care needs and people nearing the end of life. We know that depression is common, and across a number of studies it is at around 20%—much more common than in the general population. We know that depression is strongly associated with a wish to hasten death, and that if depression is found and treated in that group of patients, there will be significant change in the wish to hasten death.

There are a number of associations other than depression with a wish to hasten death, and they include difficult symptom experience, poor functional status—needing a lot of help with things—and being socially isolated. Those are really key ones. They also include a sense of loss of dignity and feeling like a burden on others. These things can all come together to make life feel very unbearable. We know that there is also an overlap between a wish to hasten death, which is a response to suffering, and feeling that one is better off dead, ending one’s own life or harming oneself. I was involved in a study where we asked people both the wording of “a wish to hasten death” and the suicide question from the PHQ9, which is a depression screening tool. Those who had a wish to hasten death were 18 times more likely to also feel suicidal, according to the psychiatric definition, than people who did not have a wish to hasten death. There is a strong association.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q My question is for Dr Price as well, please. We heard in the week from the chief medical officer earlier, who said that he was “relieved” that this Act based capacity on the Mental Capacity Act, noting that it already provides that

“the more serious the decision, the greater the level of capacity”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 30, Q3.]

and that it is used in tens, if not hundreds, of life and death cases in the NHS every week. The example he gave was someone refusing blood products that they would need to continue their life. In the light of that, I suppose I am a bit confused about your evidence saying that the MCA is not suitable for life or death decisions of this type. Do you think the MCA is not fit for purpose for those current life or death decisions that are being made, or is there something about the life or death decisions that would be made in an assisted dying context that makes that different?

Dr Price: The assumption that the Mental Capacity Act can translate neatly into this specific decision without a really clear sense of what that would look like in clinical practice is something that needs more careful thought.

I was involved in research in this area, and one of the things that I did was to scrutinise the concept of capacity as discussed in a number of forums—for example, the Commission on Assisted Dying, discussions in the House of Lords, and also interviews with doctors in England and Wales and in Oregon. There is a broad sense of what capacity is. For some, it is a very tight, cognitive definition that would mean that in practice, in assisted dying, most people would be found to be capacitous. Those who advocate a much broader sense of what capacity is—these can be contained within the framework of the Mental Capacity Act—would advocate a much broader sense of what that is, thinking about values and the person’s life experience and making more judgments, really, about that person’s life in a general sense.

What I do not think we have really pinned down is what concept of capacity is operating in the thoughts behind this Bill. Is it enough to say that we will essentially refer to the Mental Capacity Act, or do we need to be more specific about what is capacity for this decision? Is it sufficient to say, “We will refer out”, or do we need it on the face of the Bill so that anybody assessing capacity for this decision knows exactly what they should be doing and exactly how they should be having that conversation? Even though you may be operating within a legal framework, I think that the actual conversation —the actual content—will vary across practitioners. Is that good enough? Is that sufficient? Is that a good enough standard? When I do a capacity assessment, I have in mind that it may be appealed against—that is somebody’s right—and it should be available for scrutiny by a court. Essentially, that is the standard we are looking for, so it needs to be clear where the standard lies.

[Kit Malthouse]

Q I also want to explore this issue of capacity a little further with Dr Price, because I share my colleague’s slight confusion.

You talked about a percentage who wish to hasten death. The people we are talking about are facing death in any event within a foreseeable period, and they may be contemplating a death that is not pleasant. Some of the characteristics you talked about are presumably to be expected and may not necessarily interfere with their ability to make rational decisions in what they believe is their own best interest. In those circumstances, I do not understand why the Mental Capacity Act would not apply. I understand that you may be coming at it from a practitioner point of view, but if I make a decision to decline treatment to hasten my own death, I am not sure I would necessarily see that as qualitatively different, from the point of view of my own capacity, from saying, “I know I am going to die in three months’ time and I would like you to assist me to die slightly earlier.” Why are the two qualitatively different, from an MCA point of view? At the moment, one would be dealt with through the MCA, but you are saying the second would not necessarily be.

Dr Price: You are equating a refusal of treatment, in capacity terms, to hastening death by assisted dying. If those two things are equated, in terms of the gravity and the quality of the decision, the Mental Capacity Act may well be sufficient, but there are differences. There are differences in the information that the person would need and what they would need to understand. They would need to be able to understand the impact of the substance they are taking and what the likely positives and negatives of that are—all of those things.

The informed consent process is different from a refusal of treatment, and the informed consent process feeds into the capacity assessment. This is an area where we need to think carefully about whether the processes of the Mental Capacity Act, as it stands, map neatly enough on to that decision to make it workable.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Tidball]

Q Dan, I am really keen that we ensure that if the Bill passes, the voices of disabled people are continually involved in understanding its impact, particularly on the issue that you have just raised. Earlier, we heard evidence about implementation taskforces that are used in other jurisdictions. I am considering tabling an amendment on an advisory council. How might we ensure that the voices of people with learning disabilities can be included in such a body?

Dan Scorer: There are a couple of things that I would like to say in response. One is about clause 31, on guidance from chief medical officers. Immediately, I would say that people with a learning disability should be involved in the development of that guidance from chief medical officers. That guidance will be key to many of the issues that we have discussed.

Clause 35 is about the review of the Act. The lived experience of people is absolutely vital to that. The Bill says that it will be five years until we have that review. Our view is that that is far too long. If the Bill becomes law and if there are really serious issues and discrimination taking place against people, we will want to know that a lot earlier than in five years’ time, and we will want action to be taken. Our suggestion is that review should be earlier. We would want to see strong representation from patient groups across that, as well as from people who have been involved in the process, such as family members, advocates and clinicians, to make sure that if serious issues are being raised, they can be picked up early and addressed.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q It is late, and I am far from being an expert on Welsh devolution, but I want to ask Professor Lewis a question, not least because we have not come to him for a little while.

Although it is not my area, I absolutely note the concerns and the discussion about respecting the democratic will of the Senedd in these matters. Would you suggest any potential avenues in the Bill to incorporate an element of positive affirmation by the Senedd, or its consent? What do you suggest we look at?

Professor Lewis: Formally, there is a need in any event for a legislative consent motion in relation to the specific bits I mentioned earlier, I have suggested one potential avenue, which is that the Senedd and Welsh Government take on responsibility for whether and when the Act commences in Wales. Another option might be to do a thorough “think once, think twice, think Wales” review to see to what extent other functions of the Secretary of State might be better exercised in Wales by the Welsh Ministers. That is a non-exhaustive list, but I hope it helps.

[Naz Shah]

Q Dr Price, you talked in your earlier evidence about depression. One Committee member suggested that 20% of people were on antidepressants; actually, the factual position is that 10% to 11% of the adults in this country are on antidepressant medication, according to the latest statistics. To be clear, are you saying that people who are depressed are more likely to ask for or go down the road of assisted dying?

Dr Price: The evidence that we have from research—this is in populations who would fulfil the criteria in terms of terminal illness—is that the prevalence of depression is around 20%. That is across a number of populations. It is associated with a wish to hasten death. Depression might impact upon that person’s decision making; I am not saying that it absolutely would, but it might. Also, treatment might change their view. We know that there is a strong association, for example, between pain and a wish to hasten death. Unresolved physical symptoms make people want to die, and when that pain is better, people no longer feel that way.

That is borne out in my clinical practice. We will get urgent referrals to see somebody who wants to die and who they are very concerned about. Then the pain is under control: we see them that day or the next day and they say, “Do you know what? The pain’s better. I don’t feel like that any more.” When we think about symptoms, we need to think carefully about what is treatable and what is remediable. That may be about psychiatric interventions, but it is often about a biological, psychological and social approach.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifth sitting)

Lewis Atkinson Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 29th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Rebecca Paul]

Don’t worry. Thank you very much.

[Lewis Atkinson (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

Q Could I ask Dr Mullock another question? I was interested in what you said about your involvement with citizens’ juries, both here and elsewhere. As we as a Committee and Parliament are weighing up some of these issues, such as the points on autonomy and safeguards, where do you think the public settle on those when they investigate them in depth? In particular, can you say a bit about the eligibility criteria being six months with a terminal illness?

Dr Mullock: I am sorry; what do you mean by how the public settle on them?

[Lewis Atkinson]

I suppose I am interested in your observations of the outcomes of citizens’ juries. I think we have all seen bits of polling, but that is not necessarily polling of individuals who have wrestled with these issues in a deliberative manner in the way that I understand citizens’ juries are designed to do.

Dr Mullock: I was absolutely honoured to take part in both juries, and it was fascinating. I do not know whether you know, but both the jury in Jersey and the more recent English citizens’ jury were selected to represent public opinion. Both juries went through a huge amount of evidence, which was very balanced between being pro and anti lawful assisted dying. I think it is fair to say that the majority of people, as they became more informed and learned more about the dangers, the benefits and the ethical arguments, stayed quite true to their initial beliefs. There was some variation, but I expected that more of them would find themselves being opposed to any form of lawful assisted dying, and that was not the case, so that was really fascinating.

On your second question about the eligibility requirement, the arguments that have been put forward about the difficulty in making a prognosis are true, but I think this is probably the best way to deal with it, because allowing assisted dying for only those people who are already dying represents a much safer way than opening it out to people who are suffering unbearably. Although the arguments for allowing people who might have much longer to live, and therefore much more suffering to endure, are really strong, this is about limiting it to an end-of-life option, rather than opening it out, because of the dangers of this that we have seen in places like Canada.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q Widening my questions to Mr Robinson and Professor House, you talked a bit about capacity, and about coercion and the detection of it in life-or-death decisions, which clearly this would be. I am aware that there are those decisions every day in the NHS, around withdrawal of treatment and so on, but it strikes me that there is not a clear process of independent verification of capacity and so on, which the Bill will introduce in this instance. Will you say a little about your assessment of the current adequacy of those protections in withdrawal-of-care decisions in the NHS?

Professor House: I cannot speak more generally—I am not aware of research into this area. I can only tell you about personal experience, and that is, in the service I worked in, if someone said that they wished to withdraw treatment, and that would lead to death—you come across that with people who stop insulin who have type 1 diabetes, or who want to stop dialysis who are in end-stage renal failure—we would always ask to see them. The question was often: “We are really worried about this, because there is no reason—their physical health is okay enough and they don’t seem confused or lacking mental capacity,” but it is an unnerving and uncomfortable decision that we do not like.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q To clarify, you asked to see them—that, presumably, would be good practice—but there is nothing in law that requires that on those decisions at the moment.

Professor House: At the moment, no.

[Lewis Atkinson]

In contrast to the requirements that would be in this Bill, which would require that assessment to be made.

Professor House: You are introducing the idea that this Bill has more safeguards in it than routine NHS practice does, are you? I think that is the point.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Yes, I am asking whether that is the case.

Professor House: I think the problem with this Bill is what assessment it expects to be made that does not cover the ground that I have been talking about. It just asks, “Is this person able to make decisions?” Essentially, that is what the assessment boils down to, and it does not cover the psychological and social assessment. What I am suggesting is not a terribly radical thing—it is in the guidelines from the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, in other clinical circumstances where we come across people who say they want to end their life. NICE guidelines say that we should undertake a psychological social assessment.

Richard Robinson: We as an organisation are calling for the need, in a safer ageing society, to foster an environment where the safety and dignity of ageing individuals is guaranteed. We have seen some horrific examples, such as in covid with DNRs, and I think there are some parallels to be drawn there. We want to see as much robust safeguarding and checking in place as possible to ensure that that kind of issue does not come to the fore.

[Kim Leadbeater (Spen Valley) (Lab)]

Q If I may, I have a question for Professor Esmail, but I will make an observation—I think I have a duty to do this, and to be the voice of some of the people we are talking about this afternoon: the terminally ill people who are dying. We talked a little bit about suicide earlier, but it is clear to me that the terminally ill people I have met would not describe themselves as suicidal at all. They want to live, but the fact is, they are dying—that is a very important distinction to make.

Also, Richard, I would love to know your thoughts. I hear what you are saying about protections for older people, but as you rightly said, it is fair to say that not all older people are vulnerable, and that a lot of older people support a change in the law. Also, not all older people are terminally ill—I think about my grandad, who asked me to take him to Switzerland. I have thought about him a lot in recent months, but he would not have been covered by the Bill because he was not terminally ill; he was just old. Those are just a couple of observations, which you can come back on if you wish.

Professor Esmail, you acknowledged that during your time as a GP, you went on your own journey on assisted dying. I think you described yourself as being implacably opposed, but you also stated that the law at the moment is a mess and does not protect anyone. Can you tell us a little about that journey and how you came to that conclusion?

Professor Esmail: With the Shipman inquiry, I realised that there were real gaps in the process. Dame Janet Smith put in many safeguards about end-of-life care. But it became apparent to me that in terms of choice, we did not have any safeguards.

My own experience was of looking after someone who had a terrible cancer of the mouth and had pleaded with me before. He declined surgery; he said that he knew what he was going to do, that he would say his goodbyes and everything else, and that at some point he wanted to end his own life. He asked if I could help him to do that. Of course I could not, and explained why. I promised him that I would do as much as I could to alleviate his suffering. It is very graphic—it is awful. You basically choke; you cannot swallow; this thing just grows into your mouth and so on. I asked myself, “What am I achieving?” He was going to die—he knew that he was going to die. I asked myself, “Am I achieving anything by just saying, ‘No, you’ve just got to go through this process, because there is something about suffering that everyone has to go through, and it is part of life’?” I just said to myself, “This is wrong.”

When I investigated it more, I realised that you see this: people make the choice about going to Dignitas. As a doctor, they would come to me sometimes and say, “Can you fill in my medical form?” That put me in a very difficult position. Actually, it is against the law to do that because I am assisting someone. The Director of Public Prosecutions has said that they will not always prosecute people, but nothing is clear about this. We know from surveys that Dignity in Dying has done that something like 600 people take their own lives because they don’t want to go through the suffering. But it is all behind closed doors, in sometimes very violent ways. When you look at things like that, you say, “How is the law protecting anyone at the moment?” I have come to the conclusion that we don’t have a legal framework, and because of my research on patients I would say that it is actually very unsafe. So, paradoxically, a law that talks about these things, which produces safeguards, is a huge improvement on where we are at the moment. That is the first point.

The second point I would make is that, as the Committee has talked about, there are already complex decisions. We make them all the time. We assess capacity. If someone comes to us and says, “I want to do a lasting power of attorney,” you need to assess capacity. When a relative says to you, “I have lasting power of attorney; I can speak on behalf of my mother”—or whatever else—you say, “No—I still want to speak to your mother.” There are many areas where the law is quite well defined in that respect. So, we are already doing that.

There are very grey areas where people take the decision to refuse treatment. I think it is very difficult. We seem to be happy to be saying, “All right, we will support you, but you agree not to take any food and water and you will dehydrate to death,” or if someone has end-stage motor neurone disease and says, “I want you to pull my tube out,” to say, “We will sedate you while we do that.” So, these things happen already. And from my understanding, the law will bring a clear legal framework for doing that. And actually, I think it will protect doctors and patients in the decisions they make. That is why I think we have to move now.

We have put in some safeguards. Many doctors are very good at assessing this—in terms of mental capacity, for example. We are doing it all the time. It is an integral part of our training. I am not saying it is perfect. I take the points about coercion, and it is difficult. But again, we are becoming more aware of this as a society. Typically, as GPs, we are given training about trying to identify domestic abuse, how to deal with that and so on. I think things are improving. I am not saying that there is no coercion; we don’t know. The point is that at the moment, we have no monitoring. If we have a legal framework, we will know how many people have chosen assisted death; we will know that they have gone through a process—we will know all these things. It just makes it much more clear and open for everyone. I think it will make the quality of the conversations we have with dying people even better as well. There are many, many reasons why I came to that conclusion when I thought about it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Naz Shah]

Q Fazilet, doctors are members of a caring profession, but there are ways in which—wittingly or unwittingly—they can end up coercing disabled people; there are reports of that. Would I be right in saying that? If so, how does this happen and how common is this experience for disabled people?

Fazilet Hadi: Disabled people share their stories with us and other organisations. I am sure that doctors are a mixed bag, like all of us, but our experience of the NHS and of the medical profession is not wholly positive. We often find that doctors, because they cannot treat or cure us, do devalue our lives. We have had disabled people who have actually had it suggested to them or their families that their lives are expendable, when actually those people have got a lot of years to give.

We also know that when you acquire disability, which most people do—most people are not born with one—it is absolutely frightening. I am sure that most of you would be absolutely frightened to be blind; it is not something you are going to die of, but you will have that fear, because you are not used to it. Whenever you acquire a disability or that disability gets worse, you will have fears, and I suppose that makes what doctors say even more important.

If doctors are not on our side because they are thinking, “Should we mention the fact that they could have an assisted death?”, that poses a big cultural issue for the NHS, but also for us having confidence in the NHS. I actually find the NHS to be one of the organisations and institutions in this country that is least comfortable with disability; honestly, I could probably get better equality at my railway station. I say that because I think doctors have a very medical model—of course, we welcome that: they want to cure, they want to treat. But they do not always have the empathy to understand that some of us lead really good, fulfilled lives with the most complicated health conditions or impairments.

Treating doctors as absolutely scientific and the fount of all knowledge: I think those days are gone. On giving them the powers to steer us towards assisted dying, I should say that they are not a group always on the side of people with disabilities. I am not really picking on doctors. To be honest, society has a lot of internalised ableism, and doctors are just part of that wider society.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q I have a question for Baroness Falkner. I want particularly to probe the socioeconomic duty. What is your assessment of that as it relates to agency and control at the end of life? My constituents in Sunderland, unfortunately, are on average notably less well off than the rest of the UK. Is it not the case that at the moment there is choice at the end of life for people who are well off and able to travel to Switzerland, but poorer people do not have that choice? What is the EHRC’s view from a socioeconomic point of view?

Baroness Falkner: For clarity, a socioeconomic duty has not been incorporated. It is the current Government’s intention to incorporate that part of the Equality Act, but it has not been incorporated so we are not looking at it through that specific prism. But you make a very valid point because inequalities in healthcare, housing and all the associated factors that play into good health and wellbeing are there, and they exist palpably—even across geographical parts, from one bit of an area to another. They play actively into it.

Ms Hadi will be able to give better testimony than I could on this but, from what one understands, GP provision and general access to healthcare are poorer where demographics are poorer than it is in the better performing parts of the country. One other factor to consider in terms of a postcode lottery is that people in wealthier parts of the country tend to be more highly represented in private healthcare than in public healthcare and use of the NHS. That also impacts their choices and the care they get.

Fazilet Hadi: On health inequality, I take your point about how some of us can afford to fly off to Switzerland and some cannot, but some of us live in boroughs where we will die 10 years earlier and some of us have learning disabilities and might die 27 years earlier. I know you are looking at clauses, but this Bill will go into the real world, and that is what is happening in the real world—people are not getting social care and not getting palliative care. They are dying earlier. More poor people will die earlier and more poor people will have fewer options, fewer choices, less nice homes and fewer facilities to support them. As Baroness Falkner said earlier, they will unfortunately have insufficient social care and palliative care. When we are looking at inequalities, we need to note that this Bill is going to be plunged into a society that has deep, entrenched health inequalities that do not play out well for people who are poorer.

[Kim Leadbeater]

Q Thank you so much for giving evidence this afternoon. Perhaps I can provide a bit of reassurance, Baroness Falkner, on a couple of issues. The first thing I would say in terms of the Bill—

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

I remind Members that we are now halfway through and we have seven Members to go. We have already had six questions, and we have seven to go in the next half hour. I repeat that I do not want to interrupt our witnesses at the very end to stop the panel.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q Dr Porter, we heard this morning from some colleagues from Australia, reflecting on assisted dying options five years after they was introduced there. I specifically asked them about the impact that had had on the palliative care sector and hospices. The Australian hospice body had done a review and said that there had been, if anything, an improvement in palliative care, and that that was linked to assisted dying. Do you have any reflections on that, based on the international experience of the hospice sector in places where assisted dying has been introduced?

Toby Porter: That is a very good question. To make a quick framing point, so much of the Bill is about individual choice and individual opinion. Potential patients would have the choice to access an assisted death, and individual physicians would have the right to opt out of any involvement, and so on. There is this idea that your individual opinion guides everything, but with a hospice charity the opposite is true. As many Members will know because of their own work as trustees, the trustees and leadership of a hospice team are required to put personal opinion and interest to one side and always act in the best interest of the charity’s beneficiaries, who are the population. That is a really important point, because this debate has, if you like, happened to the hospice sector. The hospice sector in the UK has a job of immense complexity: balancing the needs and wishes of the patient with the duty of care to its own staff, in a context of financial fragility.

What you said about other jurisdictions is true, and it triangulates with what I have heard about Australia. The Australian introduction was accompanied by a conscious decision by the Government to invest more in palliative care, which hospices have noted and appreciated. In New Zealand, it is probably too early to say, but its hospice sector, unlike the hospice sector in the UK, largely campaigned against a change in the law. So it is slightly on the periphery, if you like. It is very complicated.

May I just list the three major concerns of the hospice sector, or would that take too long?

[The Chair]

I think it would be best not to at this stage. Do you have anything to add to that, Mr Atkinson?

[Lewis Atkinson]

No.

[Rebecca Paul]

Q My question is for Toby Porter, and it is probably quite timely. What are the risks and impact for the hospice sector if assisted dying becomes legal? Can you talk broadly about the implications, touching on the impact on the workforce and patients?

Toby Porter: In England and Wales, there are about 190 hospice charities and probably about 16,000 care staff, who will represent every different opinion on the spectrum. Hospice UK and most hospices have a position of no collective view on whether the law should change.

To summarise three impact areas, the first and most important one—this is why our written evidence stressed the need to sustain the public conversation about death and dying that this debate has started—is that, if people are made more comfortable, there is a real opportunity to talk about death and dying, as well as what services are available for everybody, including those who may want an assisted death. There is a real opportunity to improve palliative care, because most people in palliative and hospice care think that the golden thread is increasing people’s knowledge, ability and willingness to talk about what is happening to them and what services can help them.

Conversely, there is a risk. Modern palliative medicine and hospice care have for 30 or 40 years been working very hard to get people to access palliative care early—as soon as possible after diagnosis of a life-limiting condition. The language of, “I’m going to fight this”, “I’m going to defeat this cancer”, “I’m going to battle” or “I’m stronger than this” shows that we have a whole culture that works against that early access. Even today, people still sometimes associate accessing hospice care with admitting defeat and going too early. If hospices were involved in assisted dying, there is a theoretical risk that that would just reinforce an inaccurate perception about hospice and palliative care: the myth that you are helped along your way by doctors in hospices and hospitals. That is one risk.

More briefly, the second risk relates to the duty of care. What do you need for hospice and palliative care services? You need adequate resourcing, which means staff and finances. In terms of staff, the real fragility in the hospice and palliative care sector is a shortage of clinical staff—that is shared nationally with the NHS and other healthcare providers. You will know from Sarah Cox’s evidence that the majority of palliative care consultants hold views against assisted dying, many of them very strongly. If the consultants felt, for example, that they could not keep their distance from assisted dying in a 12-bed hospice unit in the way they could in an 800-bed hospital, you could very easily see that if this was not done properly and the consultants deserted the hospice sector, you could no longer offer the specialist care that is so important to the Minister, the NHS and every health and social care provider.

Thirdly, at the moment, every hospice operates with not just the consent, but the active financial support of its local community. This is, perfectly legitimately, a controversial issue, and there are very strong feelings on both sides. At the moment, we depend on charity to fund about 65% or 70%. There will be people who would stop funding hospices because they did not offer this service, if it became legal, and there will be people—this has already happened—who would stop funding hospices if they did. Those are the main strategic and operational challenges of the hospice sector. I hope you will think about how they might be mitigated in your deliberations.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Third sitting)

Lewis Atkinson Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

We will come back to that once I get other Members in.

[Lewis Atkinson (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

Q Clause 35 introduces a duty on the Secretary of State to report on a periodic basis to Parliament on the accessibility and quality of palliative care. As I understand it, that would be a new duty that we are pioneering. What is your reaction to that? Will it be helpful in continuing the momentum to make improvements to palliative care? Are there any further reporting requirements as part of that assessment—for example, around equity of access, which some have mentioned—that we could think about when considering amendments?

James Sanderson: I welcome the provision in the report. What is necessary is a benchmarking of the current position. Rather than waiting a significant period of time to do a review, we need to benchmark the current state of palliative care and then base subsequent reviews on any changes. As I mentioned before, we also need to look at the wider context. If we look narrowly at the provision of palliative care, we will not properly see what goes on across the whole environment of the health service and social care.

We have mentioned the fact that district nurses and general practitioners are providing a huge amount of palliative end-of-life care, so it may not just be what goes on inside hospices and in palliative care teams in hospitals. I agree that that needs to look at the demographic information so that we are collecting details on who is accessing palliative care and where, and the certain types. All that is necessary as part of the review.

Dr Cox: I agree completely that we need to be doing reviews now and in the future regularly on palliative care aspects. I also think there is an opportunity to write into the Bill other monitoring that would be really helpful in ensuring safety on an ongoing basis. That includes monitoring in terms of decision making—how often assessing doctors refer to others, how often they disagree and what happens after the declaration.

In the Bill there is, as far as I could see, no limit to the delay between the declaration and the request for the substance. That would be an interesting thing to look at in the future, because somebody could delay for six or eight months. Do we do another capacity assessment then? That is a tricky question. What about the taking of a substance? We have not talked about that. There are a lot of things we could look at in future that would be really helpful to monitor.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q I think around 650 people with a terminal illness currently take their own lives a year. If we see a success with the Bill, I wonder whether there would be a reduction of that number going forward. Do you think that could be incorporated in monitoring going forward? Do you think there are opportunities to avoid that suffering? People are clearly experiencing traumatic deaths at the moment.

Dr Cox: It is really difficult to know how many people who die by suicide because of their terminal illness would instead access assisted dying, and it is really difficult to understand the impact of assisted dying legislation on that. If we look at the evidence of suicide, we know that it is increased in people with serious illnesses, but it is actually increased in the first six months after diagnosis, not in the last six months of their lives, so it is about the trauma of the diagnosis. What we need for that is better mental health services, better support around diagnosis and earlier palliative care.

The other piece of evidence that I would offer to you is that the global picture of what happens to suicide rates after assisted dying legislation is introduced is confusing and mixed. But there are jurisdictions, for instance Germany, where after the introduction of assisted dying legislation the incidence of suicide has gone up year on year. I do not think we can say that introducing assisted dying legislation will stop those suicides.

[Rachel Hopkins (Luton South and South Bedfordshire) (Lab)]

Q I want to build on the comments about the multidisciplinary teams that you all work with. The chief medical officer said, in one of the sessions earlier, that discussions about death, dying and end of life are increasing. They are getting better. However, importantly, when we heard from Professor Ranger of the RCN and from the Association of Palliative Care Social Workers, they also talked about the conversations that they have, as part of the wider team. Quite often, it is nurses having those conversations.

I was struck by the way the RCN talked—and you, Dr Clarke, used the word as well—about not being paternalistic, about having the patient at the centre of that conversation, and about ensuring that we listen to the patient and ask them, “What is it that you want?” That, for me, is all about autonomy. Do you agree? The emphasis must be on patient autonomy and their choice at the end of life.

Dr Clarke: One hundred per cent. Sometimes, those of us who work in palliative care almost see the extent to which we try to place the patient at the centre of everything as quite radical, when contrasted with a lot of the other medical specialities. My opinion about what is best for a patient does not matter; their opinion is what counts.

The power of the multidisciplinary team, and the reason for thinking that it may be worth considering amending the Bill so that there is a greater role for a multidisciplinary team, is this: the fact that everybody in that team brings their unique perspective. In my hospital, whenever there is a tricky issue regarding a palliative patient, we will have an MDT. There may be 10 people in the room, all discussing the issues. It might be that someone has decided that they want to withdraw their life-prolonging treatments, or they want to have life-prolonging treatment and, for whatever reason, it is really complicated. We will have the patient, their family, doctors, nurses, social workers and dieticians—a big group of people—in the room because that is the way to make the decision most safely and most effectively, in terms of enabling the patient to have the treatment that they wish to have. It is incredibly important to have that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Shastri-Hurst]

Q Sir Nicholas, can I bring you in on that? You referred to it directly in your proposed amendment.

Sir Nicholas Mostyn: I did. What particular aspect do you want me to address? The range is quite wide. In relation to the administration of the substance, it is interesting that in Spain, which is now in its second full year of doing this, take-up has been extremely low. There have been only 700 requests, with a quarter denied, and a quarter of the people died prematurely. Three hundred were granted, but of those 300, in 95% of cases the substance was administered by the doctor and auto-administered in only 5%. I am trying to work out why that is, culturally, in Spain. Maybe people go when they are extremely infirm, and that is the reason for it. I am not able to see the moral distinction between having the substance administered and auto-administration. On your question, there are devices that enable somebody who is locked in to end their lives by a blink of the eyelash, aren’t there?

Sir Max Hill: Yes.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q We have heard from two witnesses—you, Sir Nicholas, and Dr Ahmedzai from the earlier panel—on the question of judicial oversight. While we have you here, Sir Max and Mr Ruck Keene, what are your observations on the proposals from those two witnesses that an alternative to a High Court judge overseeing the process would be some form of panel or tribunal, potentially multidisciplinary? What is your view on that and the legal implications for that?

Sir Max Hill: I would say two things. First, it bears weight that, looking at all the provisions in the Bill, the additional level of scrutiny currently being called judicial scrutiny or approval is absent in all the comparative examples around the world. That already makes this a tighter pre-legislative model than we see in other countries that have gone down this route. That is worth remembering.

Secondly, while I am not a family lawyer—I was, but a very long time ago—I think that the family division of the High Court would be very well-placed to perform the sort of exercise enshrined in current drafting, which is not a rubber-stamping exercise, but a substantive consideration of heavily objective medical opinion arrived at by not one, but two doctors, one of whom is not the treating doctor.

I listen to and accept the question of pressure on the justice system generally. That is something the Committee will be concerned about because, if the Bill passes, we want something workable. I heed what Sir James Munby said. The sitting judiciary, for good constitutional reasons, is highly unlikely to say anything. But there is therefore merit in looking at clause 12, under the heading, “Court approval”, and performing quite a simple exercise, which for me would be going through subsections (1) to (6) inclusive and, where it says “High Court”, replace that with something else. Personally, I have an aversion to the word “tribunal”, which indicates a right and wrong or some kind of fault-based system—that is not what we are talking about here. But a panel, as Nick said, is the way to go—

Sir Nicholas Mostyn: A panel appointed by the Official Solicitor.

Sir Max Hill: Whether appointed by the Official Solicitor or not. Dare I say it—because I am sitting next to a very distinguished one—I do wonder about the recently retired members of the judiciary and the role that they could play under a replacement panel system.

Sir Nicholas Mostyn: That is what I had in mind—the Official Solicitor looking at the retired judges.

Sir Max Hill: Yes, so there is legal professional capacity among the retired judges—not that they would sit alone on a panel. It would bring with it the extra benefit of having suitably qualified medical professionals, like the Spanish model. So yes, I think that could be done. That is not the same thing as saying that the High Court approval model is fatally flawed and could not be introduced, but I do think there is a viable alternative, which is worth looking at.

Alex Ruck Keene: I have only one observation, and I said this in my written evidence but I also want to say it out loud. You have to think very carefully about what purpose any form of this oversight is actually serving societally, if the oversight panel, whether that be a judge or a panel, cannot decline to approve an application if it considers that the reason the individual is seeking assistance in dying is because of service provision failures by the statutory bodies responsible for meeting their health and social care needs. That is a question of principle, and I want to make sure that that is squarely before you.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Q I have a question for Alex Ruck Keene. I noticed the concerns in your evidence about presumption of capacity, and I know that you have written in the past about concerns over different disciplines having different definitions of capacity. Later on in your evidence, you also mention multidisciplinary consideration of circumstances in assessing eligibility. How might that multidisciplinary eligibility assessment alleviate some of your concerns in relation to capacity decisions?

Alex Ruck Keene: We have capacity, but we also have to make sure that it is settled, informed and voluntary, and that we do not have things like pressure or influence going on. It is important to make it clear that we are not just saying that this is about all the weight going on capacity. For instance, if you have social workers involved—if you have, say, palliative care social workers involved, assuming it is a palliative care situation—they are going to be far better informed about what options might be out there than a doctor, potentially, depending on the doctor. Social workers more generally might well have more expertise in picking up signs of coercion or influence than a doctor, but I do not necessarily want to get into, “Some disciplines are good at X” and “Some disciplines are good at Y”—I have come across brilliant examples and bad examples in both zones.

It is partly about multidisciplinariness and also about the fact that you have more than one person trying to talk it through. When I train, I always try to tell people that 85% of capacity assessments are not all that difficult —they are just made difficult because you do not have time or you are not listening—but 15% are more difficult. I think a lot of these will be in the 15% zone, and in that zone, the more people you can have thinking about it, so long as they have an agreed framework within which to think, the more reliable, transparent and accountable the outcome is going to be.

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[Kit Malthouse]

I, too, support the amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Spen Valley, and in particular the addition of Jane Monckton-Smith. I have read her book; it is definitely worth a read and is pretty alarming. I will address why I do not think the Committee should support the amendment to the amendment tabled to add other witnesses.

Jane Monckton-Smith has done a huge amount of research in the area, and as well as being an academic who specialises in coercion and femicide—and the impact that coercion has on femicide—she is a former police officer, so has significant frontline experience. As part of her research she will have spoken with and interacted with many of the groups that the hon. Member for Bradford West is proposing to include—although maybe not specifically. I would prefer it if we stuck with the list that the hon. Member for Spen Valley has put forward, and not add the additional witnesses proposed.

[Lewis Atkinson]

I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley. Having agreed to extend the time on Thursday to hear devolution issues and from the Royal College of General Practitioners and the Royal College of Psychiatrists, by adding two further witnesses, the amendment to the amendment would reduce the time available on those options. In an ideal world we would like to hear from all sorts of people. The option of written evidence is available. We have got other evidence, and I want to ensure that Thursday’s session is focused on the proposals that my hon. Friend has made.

[Naz Shah]

There is nothing in my amendment that suggests Professor Monckton-Smith is not capable in her expertise. I am asking for other expertise to be brought to the table. Yes, there is the argument that people can submit written evidence—but so could every witness we have heard from today, and that we will hear from tomorrow and the day after. If that is the yardstick, is this just a tokenistic exercise? I would argue that for women in particular, who are the victims of domestic abuse—

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Third sitting)

Lewis Atkinson Excerpts

Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

We will come back to that once I get other Members in.

[Lewis Atkinson (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

Q Clause 35 introduces a duty on the Secretary of State to report on a periodic basis to Parliament on the accessibility and quality of palliative care. As I understand it, that would be a new duty that we are pioneering. What is your reaction to that? Will it be helpful in continuing the momentum to make improvements to palliative care? Are there any further reporting requirements as part of that assessment—for example, around equity of access, which some have mentioned—that we could think about when considering amendments?

James Sanderson: I welcome the provision in the report. What is necessary is a benchmarking of the current position. Rather than waiting a significant period of time to do a review, we need to benchmark the current state of palliative care and then base subsequent reviews on any changes. As I mentioned before, we also need to look at the wider context. If we look narrowly at the provision of palliative care, we will not properly see what goes on across the whole environment of the health service and social care.

We have mentioned the fact that district nurses and general practitioners are providing a huge amount of palliative end-of-life care, so it may not just be what goes on inside hospices and in palliative care teams in hospitals. I agree that that needs to look at the demographic information so that we are collecting details on who is accessing palliative care and where, and the certain types. All that is necessary as part of the review.

Dr Cox: I agree completely that we need to be doing reviews now and in the future regularly on palliative care aspects. I also think there is an opportunity to write into the Bill other monitoring that would be really helpful in ensuring safety on an ongoing basis. That includes monitoring in terms of decision making—how often assessing doctors refer to others, how often they disagree and what happens after the declaration.

In the Bill there is, as far as I could see, no limit to the delay between the declaration and the request for the substance. That would be an interesting thing to look at in the future, because somebody could delay for six or eight months. Do we do another capacity assessment then? That is a tricky question. What about the taking of a substance? We have not talked about that. There are a lot of things we could look at in future that would be really helpful to monitor.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q I think around 650 people with a terminal illness currently take their own lives a year. If we see a success with the Bill, I wonder whether there would be a reduction of that number going forward. Do you think that could be incorporated in monitoring going forward? Do you think there are opportunities to avoid that suffering? People are clearly experiencing traumatic deaths at the moment.

Dr Cox: It is really difficult to know how many people who die by suicide because of their terminal illness would instead access assisted dying, and it is really difficult to understand the impact of assisted dying legislation on that. If we look at the evidence of suicide, we know that it is increased in people with serious illnesses, but it is actually increased in the first six months after diagnosis, not in the last six months of their lives, so it is about the trauma of the diagnosis. What we need for that is better mental health services, better support around diagnosis and earlier palliative care.

The other piece of evidence that I would offer to you is that the global picture of what happens to suicide rates after assisted dying legislation is introduced is confusing and mixed. But there are jurisdictions, for instance Germany, where after the introduction of assisted dying legislation the incidence of suicide has gone up year on year. I do not think we can say that introducing assisted dying legislation will stop those suicides.

[Rachel Hopkins (Luton South and South Bedfordshire) (Lab)]

Q I want to build on the comments about the multidisciplinary teams that you all work with. The chief medical officer said, in one of the sessions earlier, that discussions about death, dying and end of life are increasing. They are getting better. However, importantly, when we heard from Professor Ranger of the RCN and from the Association of Palliative Care Social Workers, they also talked about the conversations that they have, as part of the wider team. Quite often, it is nurses having those conversations.

I was struck by the way the RCN talked—and you, Dr Clarke, used the word as well—about not being paternalistic, about having the patient at the centre of that conversation, and about ensuring that we listen to the patient and ask them, “What is it that you want?” That, for me, is all about autonomy. Do you agree? The emphasis must be on patient autonomy and their choice at the end of life.

Dr Clarke: One hundred per cent. Sometimes, those of us who work in palliative care almost see the extent to which we try to place the patient at the centre of everything as quite radical, when contrasted with a lot of the other medical specialities. My opinion about what is best for a patient does not matter; their opinion is what counts.

The power of the multidisciplinary team, and the reason for thinking that it may be worth considering amending the Bill so that there is a greater role for a multidisciplinary team, is this: the fact that everybody in that team brings their unique perspective. In my hospital, whenever there is a tricky issue regarding a palliative patient, we will have an MDT. There may be 10 people in the room, all discussing the issues. It might be that someone has decided that they want to withdraw their life-prolonging treatments, or they want to have life-prolonging treatment and, for whatever reason, it is really complicated. We will have the patient, their family, doctors, nurses, social workers and dieticians—a big group of people—in the room because that is the way to make the decision most safely and most effectively, in terms of enabling the patient to have the treatment that they wish to have. It is incredibly important to have that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Shastri-Hurst]

Q Sir Nicholas, can I bring you in on that? You referred to it directly in your proposed amendment.

Sir Nicholas Mostyn: I did. What particular aspect do you want me to address? The range is quite wide. In relation to the administration of the substance, it is interesting that in Spain, which is now in its second full year of doing this, take-up has been extremely low. There have been only 700 requests, with a quarter denied, and a quarter of the people died prematurely. Three hundred were granted, but of those 300, in 95% of cases the substance was administered by the doctor and auto-administered in only 5%. I am trying to work out why that is, culturally, in Spain. Maybe people go when they are extremely infirm, and that is the reason for it. I am not able to see the moral distinction between having the substance administered and auto-administration. On your question, there are devices that enable somebody who is locked in to end their lives by a blink of the eyelash, aren’t there?

Sir Max Hill: Yes.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q We have heard from two witnesses—you, Sir Nicholas, and Dr Ahmedzai from the earlier panel—on the question of judicial oversight. While we have you here, Sir Max and Mr Ruck Keene, what are your observations on the proposals from those two witnesses that an alternative to a High Court judge overseeing the process would be some form of panel or tribunal, potentially multidisciplinary? What is your view on that and the legal implications for that?

Sir Max Hill: I would say two things. First, it bears weight that, looking at all the provisions in the Bill, the additional level of scrutiny currently being called judicial scrutiny or approval is absent in all the comparative examples around the world. That already makes this a tighter pre-legislative model than we see in other countries that have gone down this route. That is worth remembering.

Secondly, while I am not a family lawyer—I was, but a very long time ago—I think that the family division of the High Court would be very well-placed to perform the sort of exercise enshrined in current drafting, which is not a rubber-stamping exercise, but a substantive consideration of heavily objective medical opinion arrived at by not one, but two doctors, one of whom is not the treating doctor.

I listen to and accept the question of pressure on the justice system generally. That is something the Committee will be concerned about because, if the Bill passes, we want something workable. I heed what Sir James Munby said. The sitting judiciary, for good constitutional reasons, is highly unlikely to say anything. But there is therefore merit in looking at clause 12, under the heading, “Court approval”, and performing quite a simple exercise, which for me would be going through subsections (1) to (6) inclusive and, where it says “High Court”, replace that with something else. Personally, I have an aversion to the word “tribunal”, which indicates a right and wrong or some kind of fault-based system—that is not what we are talking about here. But a panel, as Nick said, is the way to go—

Sir Nicholas Mostyn: A panel appointed by the Official Solicitor.

Sir Max Hill: Whether appointed by the Official Solicitor or not. Dare I say it—because I am sitting next to a very distinguished one—I do wonder about the recently retired members of the judiciary and the role that they could play under a replacement panel system.

Sir Nicholas Mostyn: That is what I had in mind—the Official Solicitor looking at the retired judges.

Sir Max Hill: Yes, so there is legal professional capacity among the retired judges—not that they would sit alone on a panel. It would bring with it the extra benefit of having suitably qualified medical professionals, like the Spanish model. So yes, I think that could be done. That is not the same thing as saying that the High Court approval model is fatally flawed and could not be introduced, but I do think there is a viable alternative, which is worth looking at.

Alex Ruck Keene: I have only one observation, and I said this in my written evidence but I also want to say it out loud. You have to think very carefully about what purpose any form of this oversight is actually serving societally, if the oversight panel, whether that be a judge or a panel, cannot decline to approve an application if it considers that the reason the individual is seeking assistance in dying is because of service provision failures by the statutory bodies responsible for meeting their health and social care needs. That is a question of principle, and I want to make sure that that is squarely before you.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Q I have a question for Alex Ruck Keene. I noticed the concerns in your evidence about presumption of capacity, and I know that you have written in the past about concerns over different disciplines having different definitions of capacity. Later on in your evidence, you also mention multidisciplinary consideration of circumstances in assessing eligibility. How might that multidisciplinary eligibility assessment alleviate some of your concerns in relation to capacity decisions?

Alex Ruck Keene: We have capacity, but we also have to make sure that it is settled, informed and voluntary, and that we do not have things like pressure or influence going on. It is important to make it clear that we are not just saying that this is about all the weight going on capacity. For instance, if you have social workers involved—if you have, say, palliative care social workers involved, assuming it is a palliative care situation—they are going to be far better informed about what options might be out there than a doctor, potentially, depending on the doctor. Social workers more generally might well have more expertise in picking up signs of coercion or influence than a doctor, but I do not necessarily want to get into, “Some disciplines are good at X” and “Some disciplines are good at Y”—I have come across brilliant examples and bad examples in both zones.

It is partly about multidisciplinariness and also about the fact that you have more than one person trying to talk it through. When I train, I always try to tell people that 85% of capacity assessments are not all that difficult —they are just made difficult because you do not have time or you are not listening—but 15% are more difficult. I think a lot of these will be in the 15% zone, and in that zone, the more people you can have thinking about it, so long as they have an agreed framework within which to think, the more reliable, transparent and accountable the outcome is going to be.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kit Malthouse]

I, too, support the amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Spen Valley, and in particular the addition of Jane Monckton-Smith. I have read her book; it is definitely worth a read and is pretty alarming. I will address why I do not think the Committee should support the amendment to the amendment tabled to add other witnesses.

Jane Monckton-Smith has done a huge amount of research in the area, and as well as being an academic who specialises in coercion and femicide—and the impact that coercion has on femicide—she is a former police officer, so has significant frontline experience. As part of her research she will have spoken with and interacted with many of the groups that the hon. Member for Bradford West is proposing to include—although maybe not specifically. I would prefer it if we stuck with the list that the hon. Member for Spen Valley has put forward, and not add the additional witnesses proposed.

[Lewis Atkinson]

I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley. Having agreed to extend the time on Thursday to hear devolution issues and from the Royal College of General Practitioners and the Royal College of Psychiatrists, by adding two further witnesses, the amendment to the amendment would reduce the time available on those options. In an ideal world we would like to hear from all sorts of people. The option of written evidence is available. We have got other evidence, and I want to ensure that Thursday’s session is focused on the proposals that my hon. Friend has made.

[Naz Shah]

There is nothing in my amendment that suggests Professor Monckton-Smith is not capable in her expertise. I am asking for other expertise to be brought to the table. Yes, there is the argument that people can submit written evidence—but so could every witness we have heard from today, and that we will hear from tomorrow and the day after. If that is the yardstick, is this just a tokenistic exercise? I would argue that for women in particular, who are the victims of domestic abuse—