Oral Answers to Questions

Kirsty Blackman Excerpts

Monday 3rd February 2025 Commons Chamber

[Alison McGovern]

I regularly meet representatives of the Welsh Government because while we strongly believe in devolution, we know that a partnership between Governments is the best way to protect our children from the terrible consequences of the poverty that the Conservatives left them in.

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

I am pleased that the Minister is updating us with progress. Does she believe the poverty strategy will be announced quickly enough for there to be changes made in, for example, the spring or autumn statements, or are we looking into next year? Please could she give an idea of the timeline?

[Alison McGovern]

I hope the hon. Lady will understand from the tone of what I said that this matter is urgent and that we are working quickly and will bring forward proposals as soon as we can.

Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Kirsty Blackman Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 3rd February 2025 Commons Chamber

[Liz Kendall]

As I said, the court will always look at whether the person needs a car for their job, but we cannot say that people are allowed to get away with fraud in different parts of the country. This is about getting money back. The measure is for people who have repeatedly refused to engage with us, and who we know have the money to repay what they owe. We can bring them to the table and have a discussion about that repayment. I think that most members of the public would think that that is totally reasonable and fair, and that is the new power that we will have.

Let me turn to the strong new safeguarding measures in the Bill. First, as I have said, there will be independent oversight in the Bill for the eligibility verification measure, and new powers for the DWP and the Public Sector Fraud Authority to investigate fraud. I will appoint an independent person to oversee how the EVM is being used and its effectiveness. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Queen’s Park and Maida Vale (Georgia Gould), will also appoint an independent person to review the use of the PSFA measures. Both will be required to provide reports to the Government, which will be published and laid before Parliament. His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services will oversee the investigation powers of the DWP and the Public Sector Fraud Authority. Any complaints about the use of the new search and seizure powers in the Bill will be referred to the Independent Office for Police Conduct.

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

This is a genuine question on the power to request information: will the DWP be able to request information from charitable organisations that are perhaps providing support to people, or from Members of Parliament, who may be providing support to constituents who come through our door?

[Liz Kendall]

The eligibility verification measure is for banks and financial institutions. It has been tightly defined, which is one of the reasons the Information Commissioner has written his response now. The last Conservative Government just referred to third-party data. That was not a serious proposal, narrowly defined with proper independent oversight. We want the legislation to pass and be used proportionately and effectively. That is why we have included the proposals as drafted.

The second important point is that there will be a statutory code of practice on how the powers can be applied, which we will consult on during the passage of the Bill, to clearly define the scope and limitations. Thirdly, there will always be vulnerability checks for each individual under the new debt recovery powers to ensure that people are not forced to pay back money that they cannot afford. Last, but by no means least, final decisions affecting benefit entitlement will always be made by a human being. Those decisions will sit alongside the right to reviews and appeals—no ifs, no buts. Put together, I believe that those new safeguards will provide the reassurance that the public and some Members of this House need that the Bill’s powers are proportionate, safe and fair.

The Bill delivers the biggest upgrade to the DWP’s anti-fraud powers in more than 14 years. It brings in new powers to tackle fraud right across the public sector by empowering the Public Sector Fraud Authority, and not before time. Our approach is tough but fair: tough on criminals who cheat the system and steal from taxpayers; tough on people who refuse to pay back money; fair on claimants, by spotting and stopping errors earlier, helping to avoid people getting into debt; fair on those who play by the rules and rely on the social security system; and fair on taxpayers, by ensuring that every pound is spent wisely, responsibly and effectively on those who need it. We were elected on a mandate for change, and that is what the Bill will deliver.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

I want to comment on a number of speeches that have been made. As the Scottish National party tabled a reasoned amendment, which unfortunately did not get selected, it will not surprise anyone that we have a number of significant problems with the Bill.

Part 1 of the Bill relates to recovering the covid moneys and the services and goods that the Government received that were substandard, for which organisations need to pay the Government back. Since its scope does not extend to Scotland, I will not add many comments, except to note that I have a long track record of bringing up covid fraud, particularly PPE frauds, in this Chamber. I will support the Government’s work to recoup the money that was fraudulently taken in Government contracts that did not deliver.

I oppose the DWP elements of the Bill, which are not what social security should be about. As my friend, the hon. Member for Brighton Pavilion (Siân Berry), said, the social security system should be built on dignity and respect. Very few Members have said that we should have a social security system that works. Members have talked about tightening up eligibility criteria. Last week, people talked about the number of scroungers that there are—people not in work who are claiming social security benefits—and how desperately we must get them back to work. People should have opportunities, but it is also important that we have a social security system that catches people and supports them when they are not able to access those opportunities, because they are struggling with their physical or mental health or have learning difficulties. We need a social security system that works.

I have asked the Minister on a couple of occasions about co-production, which an hon. Member also mentioned. Co-production is needed when it comes to changes to disability benefits. If the Government are to reduce the amount of money being paid out for disability and sickness benefits, they must work hand in hand with disabled people. They must not just say, “We are going to reduce it by this amount.” They need to sit round the table with disabled people to have those conversations and to make clear what changes they want.

In Scotland, we have reformed the previous PIP system to create the adult disability payment and child disability payment. I used to get a number of emails and people walking through my door who were terrified about their upcoming PIP assessment—having to fill in those forms again, and sit and write a long list of the normal things that their child cannot do, on an annual basis. We have changed that in Scotland. We do not have regular assessments. If someone has a longer-term condition, they do not have to go through that awful situation on an annual basis. The Government need to focus on dignity, respect and co-production. That should be way ahead of conversations around fraud.

It is important that the social security system, the procurement system and the tax system do not propagate fraud. As has been mentioned a number of times by Members from across the Chamber, the tax system creates a huge amount more fraud and a huge amount more could be recouped from that than from the social security system.

I have major concerns about how the Government are approaching the issue. Why are they introducing this Bill before the child poverty strategy? Why is this more of a priority than cancelling the two-child cap and taking kids out of poverty? Why are the Government talking about nearly £10 billion a year owed to the DWP? Just to be clear, that is not what they intend to recoup. According to the impact assessment, at least 30% will be written off, so £10 billion is a misleading figure. It might be the total amount of fraud and error, but it is not what the Government expect to get back. It does not take into account that they will spend £420 million over the next few years just to increase the number of staff or the costs of the eligibility criteria. It is also not a net figure—it is just the headline figure right now. All the work being done on the legislation is to recoup a fairly insignificant amount of money, but it will put people through absolute hell.

As has been said, the Bill will treat people as guilty rather than begin from the point of view that they are innocent. Potentially, it will put every person applying for benefits through an eligibility check through their bank. It will put them under surveillance in a way that is not compatible with the human rights that we should all expect. Let us remember that we are talking about people who, in some cases, are incredibly vulnerable, and may have their driving licence taken away.

The hon. Member for Normanton and Hemsworth (Jon Trickett) talked about two of his constituents who found themselves in a difficult situation and who did not have a huge amount of literacy. It is possible that one of those people could have had a driving licence. For disabled people, a car can be an lifeline—the most important thing. For people with mental health problems, opening letters can be really difficult. People might not engage with the DWP through no fault of their own, but because they are not getting the mental health support that they need.

That £10 billion or however much will be recouped will not fix mental health services to ensure that everyone is capable of getting up in the morning, having their breakfast, having a shower and opening the letters in scary, big writing that have come through the door. It will not ensure that people can engage in that system. It will not teach them to read and write—they may not be capable of that. I share the concerns of other Members that, for some individuals, the powers of recouping and of revoking a driving licence are entirely inappropriate. We have not had enough reassurances on that.

My concerns about the Information Commissioner are still extant. The Secretary of State said that she has had a letter from the Information Commissioner. I understand that it is probably not her fault, but I am really disappointed that we have not seen that letter in advance of today—[Interruption.] I am being told that it is being published.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)]

It is on the ICO website.

[Kirsty Blackman]

Unfortunately, I have not seen it because I was not aware of its publication until the Secretary of State stood on her feet. It would have been helpful for Members to have been given that information beforehand, so that we could have read the Information Commissioner’s comments in advance of Second Reading, given a number of us have mentioned the significant concerns of the Information Commissioner in relation to the previous Bill.

The Secretary of State said that the Bill is tough and fair. Another Member talked about tax and benefit fraud, and the issue with the DWP making overpayments. They suggested that this new system will ensure that overpayments are caught earlier. I suggest that that is a tad over-optimistic. The DWP makes mistakes and makes overpayments, and now we are giving it another place to make errors. The DWP can now see into people’s bank accounts and say, “You don’t meet the eligibility criteria, so you won’t be getting the social security payment.” Until we have built up much a higher level of trust, most people will assume that these powers will create more errors in the system, rather than reduce them.

Lastly, on a subject that I mentioned earlier, a massive number of disabled people have no trust in the social security system. They are massively concerned about the cuts coming down the line and concerned in particular that they will bear the brunt of those cuts, given the comments from so many politicians, using the word “scroungers” and talking about people fraudulently claiming benefits.

Despite the fact that the hon. Member for Hendon (David Pinto-Duschinsky) very helpfully laid out the figures on every pound claimed fraudulently, which I genuinely thought was very helpful, disabled people feel that they are being lumped in with the entire group of people claiming fraudulently—whether they can or cannot work, whether they are being paid universal credit or PIP to assist them with their work, and whether they have a helpful employer or have not been able to find one.

People feel they are being demonised by politicians simply for claiming social security, which they are entitled to. Until that trust is rebuilt, making the decision to look at their bank accounts, as in these measures, is the absolute wrong decision. The Government need to do what they can to put dignity and respect at the heart of the social security system and rebuild people’s trust in it before they introduce these sweeping, disproportionate powers.

The hon. Member for Brighton Pavilion mentioned the fact that there are so many unclaimed benefits. Surely ensuring that people have the money they are entitled to, ensuring that they have enough to live on, reducing child poverty and ensuring that not one child grows up in poverty should be more of a priority for the Government than introducing eligibility criteria and demanding that banks provide financial information on social security claimants.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)]

I hope that the House will bear with me; I have binned my original closing speech, given the number of contributions that we have heard, and some of the legitimate questions and concerns that colleagues have set out. I thank those colleagues who rightly highlighted the scale of the challenge, and why the Government must act to tackle fraud against the public sector. My hon. Friends the Members for Burnley (Oliver Ryan), for Clwyd North (Gill German), for Hendon (David Pinto-Duschinsky), for Doncaster Central (Sally Jameson), for Bassetlaw (Jo White) and for York Outer (Mr Charters) all set out the scale of the challenge, and the views of their constituents on this issue, in very robust terms.

I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for York Outer about the risk of unintended consequences, particularly on the issue of violence against women and girls. We are looking at that closely and will continue to do so. A number of Members referred to the alleged lack of an impact assessment, or the publication of one. An impact assessment has been published, alongside the view of the Regulatory Policy Committee, and is available for colleagues to view.

Let me turn to specific concerns about the Bill, starting with those of the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Helen Whately). I welcome the tone of the Conservatives, and their broad support for a number of the principles in the Bill. She is correct that it is incumbent on the state to get its money back. It is part of the unwritten contract that she referred to. I felt there was a slightly tenuous justification for the escalation in benefit fraud that we have seen in recent years: the war in Ukraine. I know that we are happy to blame Putin for many things, but that was a new one on me. She rightly pointed to an escalation in benefit fraud and error as a result of covid, but that does not explain why the level of fraud and error in the Department for Work and Pensions was higher in 2023-24 than in any of the years from 2021-22 onwards—£9.7 billion last year, a record level. The issue is getting worse, not better, and that happened on the Conservatives’ watch.

The shadow Secretary of State suggested that the contents of the Conservatives’ fraud plan would have solved all these problems, and that we are copying much of what was in it. It is fair to say that the Conservative party legislated only on the third-party data measure in that plan. The Conservatives never mentioned debt recovery powers, and made no efforts to get a grip on public sector fraud with the new powers that we are introducing by putting the PSFA on a statutory footing. Overall, their appalling record hardly comes as a surprise.

The shadow Secretary of State went on to say that she was concerned about the amount of information being shared by banks. Just to be clear, we will not be sharing any information with banks. The information that will come back to us will have very strict criteria, and we are taking a specific power to fine banks for oversharing information that is out of scope. She asked what testing has been done on this; two trials have been undertaken, so we know that the proposal will work, as it pertains to the eligibility verification measure.

The shadow Secretary of State went on, with some audacity, in my view, to challenge whether the debt recovery powers go far enough—powers that the Conservative party refused to take, and never put forward when they were in government. She mentioned the number of AI schemes that have been set aside. Test and learn is perfectly normal in the AI space. I remind her that some of the schemes that had not been taken forward are now moving through under different names. She mentioned the PSFA, and raised concerns about the right to compel information. The powers have independent oversight to ensure that their use is proportionate, so although no organisations are exempt, all actions are considered within a robust legal framework.

We then heard from the Conservatives, astonishingly, that there is nothing in the Bill to get a grip on the benefits bill. What cheek, when the benefits bill spiralled by some £20 billion on their watch! As for their so-called plan, I remind the shadow Secretary of State that they made a hash of it and that we lost a judicial review on their failed plan just a few weeks ago, so we will take our time to bring forward the proposals and will consult on them, and we will get this right.

I am grateful for the support of the Conservatives, but I hope that it will manifest itself in the voting Lobby later because, with the exception of the hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford), who I believe is the Parliamentary Private Secretary, we have not had a full speech from a single Conservative Member—just one intervention. If that does not show the lack of seriousness with which they take this issue, the appalling record and position we have inherited should do just that.

I want to spend a little time on the comments of the Chair of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams), who is a champion for vulnerable people. I particularly want to speak to the measures we are taking to assure ourselves of the appropriate support for vulnerable people, both within the scope of the Bill and more generally, because that is important and relates to a number of comments from Members. It is always the Department’s priority to set repayment plans that are affordable and sustainable; that we make use of the debt respite service, Breathing Space, which allows for a temporary protection from creditors; and that we provide additional support to help customers manage their money. We work with the Money and Pensions Service under its brand name “Moneyhelper”, which offers free, independent and impartial money and debt advice. Indebted customers are routinely offered a referral, with the majority who meet the criteria taking up that offer.

In addition, a DWP debt management vulnerability framework has recently been introduced to provide guidance for advisers on how to support customers at risk of becoming vulnerable, including signposting to specialist support. That is embedded across debt management, and part of that involves advisers undertaking annual refresher training on identifying and supporting customers experiencing vulnerability. Within the scope of the Bill, it is important to recognise that the power of debt recovery will not be used on benefit claimants. It extends only to those who receive their income through means other than benefits or through payrolled employment.

There are also important safeguards in the Bill that govern the process of debt recovery and the new enforcement powers. There will be repeated efforts at contact before any enforcement action is taken, and there will be affordability checks before any deductions are taken from bank accounts. There will be limits on the size of those deductions, a right to require deduction orders and a right to appeal deduction orders beyond that. Also, the DWP can vary or suspend the deduction order following a change in circumstances.

[Kirsty Blackman]

I appreciate that the Government have made changes around affordability, but they still do not assess either benefit clawbacks or the deductions on the basis of whether they are actually affordable for the people having to pay them back. Are the Government planning to put that in place at some point in future?

[Andrew Western]

The hon. Lady will forgive me if I have not understood her correctly, but there is specific provision in the Bill on the debt recovery powers to limit the amount that can be clawed back to 40% of anybody’s capital, but if I have misunderstood that, I am happy to have a conversation with her afterwards. I hope that I have set out some of the steps we are taking in the Bill and more broadly to ensure support for vulnerable people.

The Liberal Democrat spokesperson, the hon. Member for Torbay (Steve Darling), was right to highlight the scale of covid fraud and the lack of safeguards in place to protect the public purse. He highlighted the carer’s allowance review, which will report this summer, not next, but we are already learning the lessons of that. Much like the proposals in the Bill, data is key, so we have secured funding to extend the verify earnings and pensions service system of alerts from HMRC to 100% of claims. We will ensure in this Bill that the eligibility verification measure information is processed quickly to reduce large overpayments, and to avoid a repeat of what happened on the last Government’s watch with carer’s allowance.

The hon. Member for Torbay raised the use of AI, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth. There will always be a human decision maker on each of these powers, so where decisions are made, a human—not AI—will make that call. For EVM, a flag would be passed to a human to establish benefit eligibility. For debt recovery, it would be passed to a human to assess vulnerability and the ability to pay. For information gathering, it would be passed to a human for investigation where there is a suspicion of fraud. For search and seizure, a warrant would be granted by a judge. At all times, a human is making those decisions, as is right and proper, given the powers that we are talking about.

According to the hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire, there is no doubt that had the Conservatives had longer, their policies would have driven fraud down further and faster than our proposals will. Thankfully, we do not have the opportunity to test that theory. Given their appalling record—with fraud and error escalating every year since the pandemic and standing at £9.7 billion last year—I dread to think what they would have done when they turned their attention to these matters.

The hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire went on to ask whether the independent person would report on the use of powers. Yes, and those reports—on both the PSFA side and the DWP side—will be placed before Parliament annually. He asked about non-drivers and the point of suspending licences when not everybody drives. Well, short of taking the power to prevent somebody from walking, I fail to see how much further we could have gone in that regard. However, I recognise—as I hope he does—that that is only one of a suite of measures that we are considering to move us forward in the powers available to us.

Of course, it is important to recognise that the introduction of an independent person was not considered necessary by the Conservative Government in the third-party data measures that they proposed under their Data Protection and Digital Information Bill. We are introducing that measure not just for the PSFA powers or the eligibility verification measures, but for information-gathering powers and powers of search and seizure.

I understand that the hon. Member for Brighton Pavilion (Siân Berry) is concerned, but I fundamentally disagree with the idea that it is conservative to want to tackle benefit fraud, and that we should ignore the £7.4 billion-worth of welfare fraud last year. I certainly do not think that it is conservative to go after public sector fraud; in fact, if it were slightly more conservative, we might not be in the terrible position we are in now.

My hon. Friend the Member for Normanton and Hemsworth (Jon Trickett) raised a number of important questions. Time prevents me from running through them all now, but I would be delighted to meet him to discuss them further. I was especially concerned by the case that he raised. One potential benefit of the eligibility verification measure is that it will allow us to detect overpayments earlier, but clearly we want to ensure that the DWP is handling such issues correctly first time. The ICO was mentioned by a number of Members, including my hon. Friend. Just to clear that up, it was not a letter received into the Department; the ICO published on its website today its findings and thoughts on the Bill at this stage. It recognises the steps that we have taken on proportionality, and I welcome those comments.

The hon. Member for Brecon, Radnor and Cwm Tawe (David Chadwick) has concerns about banks and the potential erosion of data protection powers—that is not my view. The Bill will involve very limited data sharing. The Department for Work and Pensions is not monitoring accounts, and we will fine banks if they overshare in that space.

The hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman) made an important contribution. To clarify, the Bill is not predicated on saving £10 billion in welfare fraud; it sets out to save £1.5 billion over five years, but it is part of overall measures to save £8.6 billion over that period, because we do not accept the level of fraud in the system at present.

The hon. Member for Coventry South (Zarah Sultana) suggested that the Bill subjects millions of people to unwarranted financial surveillance. To give Members absolute clarity, we will not receive transactional information from banks, we will not look in bank accounts directly, and we will not ask banks to take decisions on whether somebody has committed fraud.

The hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) raised the question of clause 50 on the PSFA side of the Bill and asked what constitutes fraud. For clarity, it is standard for powers to be taken by the Secretary of State—or a Minister in this case—but in practice, qualified and experienced decision makers will consider cases as authorised officers.

The hon. and learned Gentleman went on to raise clause 91 and the removal of driving licences. I would gently say to him that this is an existing power held by the Child Maintenance Service. The question of liable persons and whether removal is proportionate would be a matter for a judge; it would only happen after repeated attempts to secure repayment, and before any disqualification occurs, an individual will always be given the opportunity to agree a repayment plan. This is a power of last resort, but I assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that if he has specific concerns about the pursuit of fraud in Northern Ireland, I am happy to follow them up.

As always, the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) spoke from the heart about the plight of his constituents and the challenges they face. I want to assure him that this is not a Bill that is intended to focus on the low-hanging fruit of vulnerable people; that is why it includes some of the protections I set out earlier, and it is why we are putting in place independent oversight for the debt recovery and eligibility verification measures. He asked about the right of appeal, and I can confirm that the rights of review and of appeal against a ruling in the debt recovery space are written into the Bill.

The important question of appointees is one that I want to address directly, given the point that the hon. Gentleman raised about his constituent’s sister. To be very clear, that is something we had significant concerns about after the previous introduction of the third-party data measure, and the system will remove appointees. There may be circumstances in which those bank accounts need to be checked if the appointee receives benefits themselves, but if they do not, they will be screened out.

[Kirsty Blackman]

The individuals who are going to do the independent assessment will be appointed by the Secretary of State. Would it not be better for Parliament to agree the appointment of those individuals, so that we can be assured that they are actually independent?

[Andrew Western]

Clearly, we will inform Parliament as to who that will be, but we will go through a proper recruitment process. If the hon. Lady is talking about the independent person to be appointed for the eligibility verification measures, we will go through a thorough recruitment process to ensure they have the expertise needed. They will report every year to Parliament, and it is right and appropriate that they do so.

I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) for his support for part 1 of the Bill, but I understand his concerns about the powers as they pertain to the Department for Work and Pensions. One of his principal concerns was about banks perhaps being unable to exercise those powers appropriately; what we are proposing is not intended as a decision-making action, but as a data push. Banks will not make decisions—a human within the DWP will carry out that investigation. He has raised concerns about potential errors in the system, and to be clear, we acknowledge that this is a new power. We intend to scale it up in a “test and learn” phase, doing so gradually so that we can get it right, but we simply cannot ignore the problem and not look to take these powers when we had a £7.4 billion problem with fraud in the DWP last year.

Turning to the hon. Member for Horsham (John Milne), I think I have already dealt with the issue of carer’s allowance overpayments and how we are starting to put that right. To clarify again, we are not accessing bank accounts; banks will be doing that for us, but they will not be taking decisions as to somebody’s benefit eligibility. The hon. Gentleman said that we should look at the efficacy of existing powers to request information. We are doing that through the updating of information-gathering powers and the right to compel information digitally. We will be moving to a list of excluded organisations, rather than a list of organisations from which we are able to compel information.

My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool Wavertree (Paula Barker) raised a series of concerns, which I know come from a good place. I am very happy to meet her to discuss some of these powers—it is important that we get this right—but on the particular question of the legal advice and article 8, although she is correct that Big Brother Watch did commission some legal opinion, we are confident that the powers in the Bill are compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. They are different powers, distinct from the third-party data powers put forward as part of the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill, and we do think that they are compatible with the ECHR, including the right to a private life under article 8. That is specifically because the third-party data elements are now narrower, and because we have included the safeguards that I have set out. We think the measures are justified in accordance with the law and are proportionate.

The final speech was from the Opposition spokesperson, the hon. Member for South West Devon (Rebecca Smith). Again, I felt it was constructive, if slightly fantastical at points, and I may disagree about the extent to which the Conservatives had more sensible plans that have since been abandoned by this Government. On the question of public sector fraud, I note that she pointed to action to be taken to try to claw back public money. Can I suggest to her that they seek to put that in a press release? If they are not enough of a laughing stock because of their previous behaviour, they would be after seeking to claim that they had a positive story to tell in that space.

I will finish by reiterating the comments of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State: whoever you are—big businesses, covid fraudsters, organised criminal gangs seeking to defraud the system or individuals knowingly cheating on their benefits—it is not acceptable. We have a major problem, and we are taking the powers needed to act.

Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Welfare Cap

Kirsty Blackman Excerpts

Wednesday 29th January 2025 Commons Chamber

[Alison McGovern]

In the specifics of our proposal, we will publish a Green Paper on health and disability in the coming months. With regards to the financial controls, we will do all that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury set out some moments ago on allowing the Office for Budget Responsibility to perform its function. That is the best way to ensure that we take fiscal decisions within the guardrails that he set out.

The results of 14 years of failure are unfortunately only too obvious, as I said earlier. Everywhere we look in this country, we can see the impact of what the previous Government did. Too many people in far too many places were neglected and failed, starved of opportunity, and left to turn to a social security system that just is not working. Everybody in this country suffers the consequences.

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

I am not sure how long the Minister has left in her speech, but I have a question about the welfare cap. We are being asked to make two decisions: to approve the welfare cap, and to note the breach. She has made the case for how the Government are trying to get Britain working and why the breach has happened this year, but so far she has not made the case for why they are putting in a welfare cap this year and why we parliamentarians should agree to it.

[Alison McGovern]

I did make the case for the overall welfare cap and for that policy at the beginning of my speech, because it is important that we have proper controls on public spending. Fantasy economics will do absolutely nothing to support family finances and the Government are determined that we will manage public finances in a responsible fashion.

The results of failure are far too obvious; we all pay the consequences. That is why we will not stand for it. Every penny counts, but so does the future of every person in this country. That is why, in order to ensure we save every penny for the things we want to spend on in social security, we are bringing forward the biggest welfare fraud and error package in recent history. We are not just tweaking a broken system; we are going to fundamentally change the way we approach reform, starting with the principle of focusing on people.

We will tackle the root causes of unemployment—whether you are out of work because you cannot find a job or are out of work because the last Government wrote you off, everybody deserves to build a better life and fulfil their potential.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Sandher]

I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. Ten minutes is nowhere near enough time for people to get the job support they need. It is not enough for those who are seeking help or for those seeking to give that help, especially as the economy is changing and getting a well-paid job requires more training. The country changed before with the automative revolution, and it is now changing with the artificial intelligence revolution. Those people need support and help in order to get security, but they are not guaranteed it or given it at the moment, and that is the precise intention of the changes we are putting forward. It is not easy to put forward these changes and it will not take a short time, but by starting that work today and by changing the relationship between those who are seeking to give help and those who are receiving that help, we can ensure that those who need help will actually receive it.

This is not just about those on the ground who are doing great work, or indeed about my former brilliant colleagues at the DWP. It is also about how we in this House speak about those who need help, who are in poverty or who receive social security payments. We must understand that every single person in this country wants to work and wants the dignity that comes with it, but they are too often let down because of a lack of well-paid jobs, a lack of support and a lack of dignity afforded to them by a party that sought only to demonise. That is what we seek to change in this House and, indeed, in this country. That is the choice before us, and it is why we are making these decisions: a technical breach of the welfare cap this year and a more accurate welfare cap in the years ahead, so that we can begin to provide the support that people need.

[Kirsty Blackman]

People go to food banks because work does not pay and the two-child cap, for example, means that they do not have enough money to live on or to support their families. Why is the hon. Member supporting a welfare cap that bakes in the two-child limit?

[Dr Sandher]

I do not believe that the hon. Member is correct. The welfare cap does not define future decisions; the welfare cap in future years defines the total amount that will be spent at that time. We should be clear what the welfare cap refers to. She mentioned the two-child limit in particular, and Government Members have been clear that choices have to be made in straitened times. We know that children are driven into poverty and that no child deserves to be born into such circumstances. Indeed, we know about the huge and shocking rise in child poverty and child hunger in this country. I know that Members across the House are shocked by that, but the truth is that we cannot make every such decision in this House because these are straitened times. However, I appreciate the intervention and, indeed, the good faith in which it was made. There is a lot we have to change in this country, and I am sure we will do so in the years ahead.

The choice before us today is simple. The technical breach this year and the change in the years to come are the right choices, and we are making them for the right reasons. Many in work today cannot make it pay, and that is why we will make sure that people who are in work get the training they need. That is not just about the training they need to get a better job; it is about the support they need to ensure that their healthcare, and indeed their health, is good enough to continue working.

More broadly, we must ensure that every single person in the country can have a decent job that pays enough, and we are taking action in three areas to do that. First and foremost, there is our action on the NHS and through the Darzi review, because we should not live a country where almost 3 million people are too sick to work. We have offered thousands more appointments to get waiting lists down, because people who cannot see a GP today are far more likely to end up out of work tomorrow.

Secondly, we are helping people get into work. There are the 16 trailblazer programmes to join up work skills and health support, and the £115 million to help those with complex needs get back into work.

Thirdly, we are creating good jobs for young people with the youth guarantee, so that every single young person in this country can access the training they need and the apprenticeships they require.

The fundamental reforms the Chancellor set out in her speech today are also about supporting people into work so they can contribute to our economy, and do what they need to do to get a decent life for themselves and their family. Having a decent job and earning enough to live is about more than the pound in a person’s pocket; it is about a sense of contentment and something to talk about with their mates. It gives meaning to each day.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

I agree with a number of the comments that have been made across the House today. I found myself nodding along with the right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) there, and particularly with the right hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn). I just want to highlight a couple of things before I get into the meat of my speech.

We know that 38% of universal credit claimants are in work, so I am glad that the Government are talking about how to make work pay and how to get more people into work. I am glad that the Government are investing in strategies that will get young people into work, and that will get people who have been long-term unemployed, or even short-term unemployed, back into work. I am glad that they are reforming jobcentres so that they will be assisting people in a way that they maybe have not been doing in recent times. I am pleased about all of that, but we need to recognise that 38% of those on universal credit are already working. It is just that their work is not paying enough or is not offering flexible enough hours if they have childcare or other caring commitments, and therefore they need that top-up.

The welfare cap covers not only benefits and other elements of social security provided to people who are out of work, but child benefit and a huge number of different things. It is not entirely focused on people who are out of work, although I appreciate the Government’s action on that.

The right hon. Member for Islington North talked about how the welfare cap is a bit backwards. Everyone would be jumping up and down, saying, “That’s backwards,” if we said, “We are going to put a cap on the number of people who can receive chemotherapy, and on the amount spent on it, because we are going to reduce the rates of smoking, obesity and other risk factors. We are going to have a healthier population, so it is okay for us to cap chemotherapy. We are going to put all this stuff in place to ensure that we reduce the spend on chemotherapy.” We should first spend the money and solve the problem, and then the spend will reduce.

That is the whole point about the welfare cap—it is backwards. By having a welfare cap, the Government are saying that they will reduce the spend on welfare by doing all the things that they are not yet doing. They have not solved the problem. Once they have solved the problem, and once the welfare system has improved in the way they are trying to improve it, the numbers and the spend will reduce.

I am, however, not entirely convinced that everything the Government are putting in place will reduce the spend, because they are battling against a number of factors. Even if they manage to get jobs to pay better, even if they further increase the minimum wage so it is closer to a living wage, even if they ensure there are more opportunities, and even if the Chancellor’s opportunities for growth actually exist and create many more jobs, there will still be a significant number of people whom the system is not set up to support.

I have dealt with people in my constituency surgeries who are being supported by third sector organisations, which are being hammered by the national insurance changes and will not be able to provide the support they have been providing. I have dealt with individuals who are six months away from having the consistency in their lives to be able to get up at 8 o’clock every morning.

My concern is that all Governments—I am not specifically blaming the Labour Government—look for quick wins. They look for the low-hanging fruit. “Where can we try to improve things so that people who are pretty close to work anyway—who are not that far out, who have pretty stable lives and who do not have an incredibly chaotic lifestyle—can access work?”

We will be letting down those people who have chaotic lifestyles and who are so far away from being able to get into paying work—particularly full-time paying work—if we reduce the amount of disability benefits they can claim or reduce the amount of support they can receive, when they are a year away from having the stability to be able to access work.

The social security safety net is not a safety net unless it provides support to people who absolutely cannot work right now, and who will need 12, 15 or 18 months, or two years, of intensive support to get to a position where they can achieve part-time work. I do not think that support is in place, and I do not think any Government have provided enough support to ensure that people are not left on the scrapheap.

[Robin Swann]

We talk about labelling people, and we used to have that awful acronym “NEETs”—young people who are not in education, employment or training—and thank goodness we have moved away from that.

The hon. Lady is talking about programmes, and the programmes we had in Northern Ireland under the European social fund and the UK shared prosperity fund are now being withdrawn from those communities. Those organisations were crucial in helping people who were far from employment get into gainful work. It takes time to build up young people’s confidence in society so that they see the value of work. I agree with the hon. Lady that the problem requires a long-term plan, but the Government are looking for short-term plans.

[Kirsty Blackman]

It is absolutely about long-term planning. That is why we are making the case that we cannot have a welfare cap and that things are being done backwards. We should put in place all the supports that the Government are promising, and more, to get people to the position where they can get into work.

The welfare cap is an unfortunate hurdle, particularly as it bakes in some of the cuts that have been made, such as the winter fuel payment. It seems that there will not be an increase in the level of paternity pay; it would be nice to see an increase in paternity pay levels and in the number of men taking up paternity leave. On young people not in education, employment or training—a phrase that was used earlier, when somebody said NEET—it would be great if young people had more chances and choices.

Finally, on issues relating to specific geographical locations—the Minister mentioned Blackpool—hon. Members would not expect me, as the hon. Member for Aberdeen North, to avoid talking about the importance for Aberdeen of having a just transition. I mentioned doing things backwards; the Minister needs to ensure we build up renewable energy jobs before we knock down the jobs in fossil fuels. I am concerned that the Government are failing to do that in the right order, and that we will have gaps where people will become unemployed because of the UK Government’s actions.

Women’s Changed State Pension Age: Compensation

Kirsty Blackman Excerpts

Wednesday 15th January 2025 Westminster Hall

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

Thank you for chairing this debate, Dr Murrison. I thank the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes) for securing it and allowing us the opportunity to speak.

It is truly shocking that the Government were willing to apologise, admit that there had been maladministration and then to say, “Sorry, we’re not doing anything about it.” The WASPI women have run one of the best campaigns I have ever seen. Imagine this society and economy without the contribution of the WASPI women. These women were told throughout their careers to be quiet, and were told that they were not as valuable as the men who were working with them. These women quietly got on with the job, raised children, looked after parents and worked incredibly hard for less money than their colleagues. These women put so much in, and made these islands what they are today.

The UK Government are sitting there knowing that they wronged this group of women and are unwilling to do anything about it. What would the Treasury’s coffers look like if they did not have the £200 billion from equalising the state pension age? Imagine what we have asked those women to put up with throughout their time, and this Parliament is saying to them, “You’re still not worth it. You’re still not valuable. You still do not deserve compensation, despite the fact that we’ve wronged you.”

The Government know that they are wrong; they know this is the wrong decision. What they need to do now is put it to a vote on the Floor of the House and give every single MP the opportunity to walk through the Lobbies to make clear their individual views on the actions being taken towards the WASPI women and the principle and administration of compensation. The WASPI women deserve compensation. The Government need to give us a vote.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (in the Chair)]

Colleagues, the wind-ups will begin at 3.28 pm.

Women’s State Pension Age Communication: PHSO Report

Kirsty Blackman Excerpts

Tuesday 17th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Liz Kendall]

The pension schemes Bill will do precisely that. One of the really important things that we want to do is to consolidate smaller pension pots, so that they deliver better value and better results for those in retirement. That is exactly what that Bill will do. We want to see the very best for pensioners and also the very best for UK plc, which is why our pensions reforms are so important. My hon. Friend the Minister responsible for pensions will be delivering on that in the months and years ahead.

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

Anas Sarwar said that, under his leadership, WASPI women will finally receive the justice they deserve. Is the justice they deserve being paid less than their male counterparts throughout their career? Is the justice they deserve being sacked or forced to resign from their jobs when they had children? Is the justice they deserve the removal of the winter fuel payment? Why are the Labour Government absolutely determined to take every opportunity to screw over 1950s-born women?

[Liz Kendall]

I am proud of the last Labour Government’s record on helping the lowest-paid women pensioners and of the improvements that we delivered. This is not about that issue; this is about the way that the state pension age was communicated. If the hon. Lady wants a different approach, the SNP Government in Scotland can provide that by using the £4.9 billion settlement—the biggest ever in the history of devolution—that we have provided.

Oral Answers to Questions

Kirsty Blackman Excerpts

Monday 16th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Emma Reynolds]

Indeed, we have taken forward the biggest awareness campaign for claiming pension credit that has ever been seen. We are determined that those on the lowest incomes should claim pension credit and be awarded it, which will passport them to winter fuel payments and other related benefits.

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

The Scottish Government are bringing back the winter fuel payment because we are aware what an awful disaster this has been for the Labour Government. People are terrified to switch on their heating. Will the Minister please explain to pensioners living in poverty circumstances but not eligible for pension credit what they should do this winter? Should they just wear an extra blanket?

[Emma Reynolds]

The Scottish Government have been given a record settlement in the recent Budget. As the hon. Member knows, winter fuel payments and other benefits are devolved to the Scottish Government.

“Get Britain Working” White Paper

Kirsty Blackman Excerpts

Tuesday 26th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Liz Kendall]

I have talked about what we aim to do to prevent mental health problems from happening in the first place, with more mental health support in schools and in the community. I see this as a fundamental overhaul of the way the DWP and the NHS work together, so that support to get people with mental health problems into the right jobs becomes part of what the NHS does, by putting employment advisers into the NHS. The individual placement and support service, which began under the last Government through the NHS, has shown quite phenomenal results—40% of people are in work after five years. Their use of the health service—the number of relapses and days they spend in hospital—are also reduced. That is better for work and for mental health. This requires a big change in the way we work, but my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary and I are determined to make that happen.

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

Many disabled or ill people were terrified by the Tories’ proposals to cut £3 billion from sickness benefit. Given that Labour is continuing that cut, will the Secretary of State promise to sign up to the principle of “nothing about us without us” and ensure that disabled people, those with ill health and those with lived experience of these systems are round the table, making the decisions on how this moves forward?

[Liz Kendall]

I have always been a big champion, including when I worked in social care, of working in partnership with people to get the decisions right first time. That is really important, which is why the Minister for Social Security and Disability and I are absolutely clear that we will work with disabled people in the relevant organisations to get this system right. I want to be really clear that the system is not working. People have to wait weeks on end to get an assessment, which often is overturned at tribunal. We do not do enough to prevent people from falling out of the workplace. Ninety per cent. of people who get back into work after a bout of sickness do so within the first year, but we do not use that opportunity to provide the help and support that they need. We need change. I understand how worried people are when they hear about change, but I think they would also say that the change needs to happen, and we are determined to put that in place.

Social Security Advisory Committee: Winter Fuel Payment

Kirsty Blackman Excerpts

Tuesday 12th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Emma Reynolds]

The previous Government promised 13 years ago to merge housing benefit with pension credit, which would be a significant advance towards improvements. We are introducing that in January. We will have been in power for only six months, but we will have done more than the previous Government did in 14 years.

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

Many pensioners are terrified of going into debt and do not want to switch on their heating in case they end up with massive bills. Temperatures will drop below freezing in Scotland at the beginning of next week, so will the Minister apologise to those pensioners across Scotland who will not be able to put the heating on because they fear going into debt?

[Emma Reynolds]

I urge the hon. Lady to look at the support available to low income households through the warm homes discount scheme, the extension of the household support fund and our commitment to the triple lock, which will ensure that 12 million pensioners see a rise in their pension of up to £470 next year, and £1,900 over the course of this Parliament. In the longer term, I urge her to look at the detail of the warm homes plan, which will transform homes across the country by making them cleaner and cheaper to heat.

Oral Answers to Questions

Kirsty Blackman Excerpts

Monday 11th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

Temperatures are set to drop to zero across Scotland by next weekend. Many pensioners are scared to put on their heating, with the Big Issue reporting a three-month delay in claims for pension credit. Can the Minister let us know what she is doing to ensure that those claims are processed as quickly as possible so that people can get the money into their pockets?

[Emma Reynolds]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question. We want people who are eligible to get support, and we have redeployed 500 staff to process those claims. I can assure her that that is something that we are focused on.

Oral Answers to Questions

Kirsty Blackman Excerpts

Monday 7th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Liz Kendall]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point about learning the lessons from the last time we were in government and lifted more than 600,000 children out of poverty, and looking at similarities and differences, not least that there are more children growing up in poverty in households, whether in the private rented sector or in social housing, and that there are more children growing up poor in a household where somebody works. Getting and creating more good quality jobs, and helping families into those jobs, is absolutely a crucial part of our child poverty plan.

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

Yet we have a situation where families with more children are impacted by the two-child cap and the benefit cap, and the Government are refusing to get rid of those things. At a stroke, they could lift thousands of children out of poverty and improve, overnight, their life chances. I appreciate the fact that the Government have the child poverty taskforce, but that is not making a difference to these children today, is it?

[Liz Kendall]

I am under no illusion about the impact 14 years of the Conservatives and the social security system has had on child poverty. That is why we are determined to take action across government to increase family incomes, drive down costs and, crucially, put in place long-term support, particularly in the early years. We will produce the strategy by spring. I am absolutely sure that every part of the plan will lift more children out of poverty.