Welfare Reform Bill

Karen Buck Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Harriett Baldwin]

Yes. We were reassured earlier by the Minister that any kind of sanction regime would apply only once children joined school at the age of five.

This linear move into work is an important aspect here—it is probably even more important for parents than for any other group in society—so I am pleased to see that it would be possible under the Secretary of State’s proposals. I am also pleased that the £2 billion which has been mentioned will still be in place to provide support for families making that transition into work.

[Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab)]

The hon. Lady is making a powerful argument. Will she confirm that Labour Members are not arguing that child care assistance should not be available to people working less than 16 hours? Of course if the financial envelope is large enough it is right that that assistance should be available, for all the reasons she is outlining. What would she say to people who live in high-cost areas, such as my constituency, to parents of larger families, and to parents who have no choice but to work longer hours? Their child care is going to be reduced or lost, because their child care is going to be capped to pay for the things that she is talking about.

[Harriett Baldwin]

I shall deal with some of those other points in my later remarks, because they are all important subjects for debate. Indeed, the proposals in new clause 2 suggest a figure of £300 a week for this element. I was genuinely surprised that there were people who were getting as much as that. I do acknowledge the cost of child care in central London: I have paid it for many years, so I recognise what we are talking about. However, £300 a week is a lot of money—it works out as £15,600 a year. It is indeed a generous cap.

I propose that we turn the child care element on its head. The initial move in what we might call the slide into work should be reimbursed at 100%. When people make the difficult first choice to go into work, the first few hours of child care, perhaps up to the earnings disregard—I ask the Minister to ask the Department to consider some of the maths involved—should be reimbursed at 100% as they make that important transition. When they reach the level of annual earnings represented by the disregards that we are talking about, the tapering of the contribution that the person in work would make to their child care would begin.

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[Guto Bebb]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is something that was reflected in the comments of the hon. Member for Edinburgh East, who, in relation to the aim of our welfare proposals to support people into micro-jobs, was quite disparaging of that type of job. Indeed, she stated on more than one occasion that we should consider the “type” of job that people will be able to take up as part of our reforms. I think that that is a symptom of the problem.

In my constituency of Aberconwy we have worked extremely hard to try to turn the tourism industry from something that is seasonal to something that is year-round. We have put a lot of emphasis on trying to ensure that the seaside resort of Llandudno is no longer somewhere that attracts people only for three months in the summer. By investing in conference facilities and so forth, we have tried to ensure that the hotel and service industries supporting tourism in the town work throughout the year. We have seen a huge growth in employment in the tourism sector in Llandudno over the past 10 years, yet that growth has been filled largely by people from eastern Europe who are willing to work hard.

From my point of view, the incredible sadness is that those individuals who have gone into what some Opposition Members would call “poor jobs” have ended up working themselves into positions of responsibility and management. I despair when I go out knocking on doors during election campaigns and meet people in the town who have lived there all their lives but have not grasped those opportunities. They live in a system that has allowed Opposition Members to forget their consciences because they have been able to say that they are providing money. There is more to the welfare state than providing money: we have to provide aspiration and a concept of self-reliance. We have to send out a message not just as a Government, but as a society, that work not only has to pay, but that it is the route to better oneself and one’s family. That seems to have been missing from the Opposition’s contributions to the whole debate.

Finally, it is also worth making quick reference to the comments made by the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon), who is no longer in her place. She said that she was sincerely of the view that the Department for Work and Pensions should make no effort to hassle and harass people who are unable to take up opportunities to work because of child care issues and so forth. I was intrigued by the use of the word “harass” in relation to trying to support people back into employment. One aspect of the Bill that we must understand is that it is not happening in isolation, but hand in hand with investment in the Work programme, which will try to ensure that people are not left to fester on benefits or have an existence on welfare. The Government are trying to reform the welfare state, but we are doing so in a way that tries to support people back into employment, and that aspiration should be shared by all Members of the House.

New clause 3 makes an important point. I disagree with it as it has been tabled, but I think that we will need to look very carefully at how we deal with free school meals in the system, because it is an issue of real concern to parents. Yes, of course they want to take the opportunity to have a job, and of course they are reassured by the fact that the reforms we are putting in place will make work pay, but as part of that, if they have three or four children, how we deal with free school meals is clearly appropriate and does not work against the proposals to ensure that work pays.

I fail to understand why the Government are being castigated for not providing enough detail in the legislation. The reason that we have not yet done so is that this is an incredibly difficult proposition to get right, as Members on both sides of the House have agreed. I see nothing wrong with saying that we will endeavour to get it right and that we are going to ask the experts to look at the issue on our behalf. I am reassured by the Minister’s comments in Committee, when he stated categorically that our aim was not to make any family currently in receipt of free school meals worse off.

[Ms Buck]

The hon. Gentleman is arguing that the Bill will make work pay and that we should accept it without these crucial details. Does he accept that key child care charities, when making their submissions to the Government following the seminar, pointed out that 250,000 families would see their entitlements cut by £30 to £35 a week, that some would face a marginal rate of deduction of 100%, and that a lone parent on the minimum wage working for more than 24 hours a week would have a marginal rate of deduction of 94%? If we are being asked to believe that the Bill will always make work pay, we should be able to understand what its impact will be and have a chance to interrogate the Government properly.

[Guto Bebb]

That is an interesting contribution, but in truth I fail to see how those charities can make those calculations when we have not yet brought any proposals to the table. It is difficult to understand how those calculations were made, unless they were based on hearsay or assumptions.

Asking the experts to look at this on our behalf will enable us to introduce a set of proposals that will work. Also, hon. Members should be reassured by the fact that we will allow Parliament to look again at the proposals before they are enacted. That will allow scrutiny once they have been developed in detail. I agree with Opposition Members who have stated that the free school meals policy needs to work. Ultimately, there is no point in creating a reform to the welfare state to make work pay if it does not take into account the impact of the free school meals entitlement.

We need to be careful about new clause 4, because it fails to take into account the complexities that I have discussed with colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions relating to the different arrangements for prescription charges in the various parts of the United Kingdom. Of course universal credit must take into account the need for some kind of support for prescription charges in England, but the situation is different in Wales and Scotland, where, for reasons best known to the Governments in Cardiff and Edinburgh, people do not need to pay for their prescriptions. I find that policy very odd. I can walk into a chemist in Llandudno and get a free prescription, whereas I would have to pay for it in London. Personally, I would be happy to pay a small contribution rather than getting support in that way.

The issue of passported benefits relating to prescriptions is an important one that needs to be looked at. We cannot end up with a system that builds compensation for prescriptions into a universal benefit for the whole United Kingdom without taking into account the complexity that I have just described. I applaud the fact that we are looking at this in detail and trying to introduce a policy that will be fair to all. I am surprised that the Opposition see the fact that we are giving these matters a great deal of care and attention as something to belittle, rather than something to celebrate.

As a Conservative Member, I would find it difficult to argue against the presumption of people saving for a rainy day. I find surprising some Opposition Members’ arguments that people who fall on hard times should not use their savings. If that had always been the argument in relation to every possible hard time, there might be some merit to it. However, we heard the bizarre argument from the hon. Member for Edinburgh East against someone who had had their working hours reduced having to use their savings rather than rely on universal credit, even though I suspect that she would be willing to continue with the current situation, in which someone who becomes unemployed, which is much worse, is expected to use their savings before being able to claim anything from the state.

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[Paul Uppal]

I will modify my speech to highlight some of the concerns expressed by the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) on new clause 6. That will be the beef of what I will say. We spoke about this issue at great length in Committee and I spoke about it personally. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), I feel like we are back in Committee. I assure the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West that it was always a pleasure to sit on that Committee, and I am sure that Opposition Members will concur.

We received representations from various groups on the merits of paying housing benefit directly to landlords, principally from Citizens Advice, Crisis, the National Landlords Association, the Residential Landlords Association, Shelter and the British Property Federation. As the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West said, and as was said in Committee, there are persuasive arguments about paying housing benefit directly to landlords. It is perhaps ironic that it was the last Labour Government who changed the system in 2008. Before that, rental payments did go directly to landlords.

As was rightly said in an earlier exchange, the Minister has highlighted that there is provision in the Bill for paying housing benefit directly:

“We recognise that in some circumstances, direct payments to landlords may be necessary, and the Bill makes provision for that.”––[Official Report, Welfare Reform Public Bill Committee, 5 April 2011; c. 363.]

I hope that that gives the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West some comfort on his specific concerns. I hope the Minister will forgive me if I am pre-empting his response, but we discussed this matter at length in Committee.

I think that there is a deeper point on the issue of responsibility. The Leader of the Opposition raised this issue this morning as the cornerstone of his speech. I do not want to go over what has been said too much. The essence of my point is that it is easy to talk about responsibility, but the Government are actually delivering on it. I have my concerns about the payment of housing benefit, but having sat on the Committee, looked at the findings of the reports and considered the evidence, I have come to the conclusion that if we are sincere about the aim of this Bill of getting people off benefit and into work, the first step is not only getting people into work, but individuals taking responsibility. The concerns underlying new clause 6 are addressed by the Minister’s remark that the whole essence of the Bill is to tackle the issue of responsibility.

I am sure, Madam Deputy Speaker, that you were as enthralled as I was by the exchange involving the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) and my hon. Friends the Members for Aberconwy, for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) and for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) about the number of people who have not worked in the past 10 years—a time of plenty compared with the situation that we face now. The point that was missed in that exchange was the pernicious nature and corrosive effect of what we have seen over the past few years; this is not just about getting people into work. We have arrived at a situation in which not only are there people who have never worked, but there are whole families who have never worked. The exchange missed that point, but it was eloquently covered by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy.

[Ms Buck]

The hon. Gentleman is right that addressing worklessness that has crossed generations should be a concern on both sides of the House, and it is. However, does he agree that the number of people growing up in households where nobody has ever worked through two generations is 20,000 at the most, which is 0.1% of people on working-age benefits? That is far too many, but it is only 20,000 people.

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[Charlie Elphicke]

I rise to speak against new clause 2. One of the major achievements of the reform of introducing universal credit is enabling people to have greater flexibility in taking on part-time jobs—so-called mini-jobs. I have made the point several times in interventions that it is critical that we enable people with child care responsibilities to have the maximum flexibility in how they organise their child care and for how long they wish to work, so that they are reintroduced to the world of work.

I praise the Government particularly for making the effort to consult all parties in their recent seminar. It was not just members of the Public Bill Committee who were there, but members of the Work and Pensions Committee. Such engagement is important, because it enables us to get everything right. The Government have introduced a Bill that is a bookcase into which the books will later be slotted, and they are making an effort to ensure that the books read well and effectively.

One of the most telling parts of the briefing that we were given in the seminar was about what parents had told the DWP that they wanted. It informs the decision on whether new clause 2 is right. The DWP publication—“briefing” is probably a better description—is entitled “Childcare support in Universal Credit” and dated May 2011. It states:

“Recent findings from a survey of lone parents on Income support and with a child aged 5-6 found a strong preference for working part-time.”

Among those looking for work or expecting to do so in future, the majority stated a preference for 16 to 29 hours’ work a week, with 45% giving a preference of exactly 16 hours. Why exactly 16 hours? It has been drummed into everyone that they have to go out and work for 16 hours, not a moment less, or they will not get any help with child care. Subsection (5) of new clause 2 makes it clear that the Opposition want that prescribed minimum number of hours a week to remain. In other words, they do not want the mini-job, and yet we know that lone parents show a strong preference for working part-time, which should be respected. People are not here to dance to the Government’s tune: Governments should dance to the tune of the people, and be as flexible, helpful and enabling as people wish.

[Ms Buck]

While the hon. Gentleman is on the subject of the survey of parents’ opinions, does he know how many of the 250,000 parents who are expected to lose between £30 and £35 a week under both options in the Government’s proposals said that they wanted less support with their child care?

[Charlie Elphicke]

I have not conducted a detailed survey on that. I am also unsure what the 400,000 or 430,000 who will win approximately £50 say. There will always be winners and losers, but what I like about this policy programme is that there are almost twice as many winners as losers, and they will win an awful lot more money, which helps the transition to the policy.

Let me return to the evidence of parents. The Government document states:

“Many out of work mothers, both lone and partnered, are looking for jobs that will fit in with their children’s schooling—i.e. jobs that are part-time and preferably within school hours.”

That is obvious and self-evident—any parent knows that—but it is important to have survey evidence so that the argument has an element of objectivity. The document goes on to say that out-of-work mothers

“tend to look for work that is local and flexible, so that they can be available if, for example, their child is taken ill.”

All of us parents have been there—have we not?—when our children get sick and we send them off in the morning, tying their scarves up tight and hoping that no one notices. When they do notice, we get a call. I have had to make that run—even though, as I am told, as a man I have no rights in respect of child care responsibilities. Some of us in the younger generation are new men, although I hesitate to apply that description to myself.

The document also states that those factors—locality and flexibility—

“are often seen as being more important than the type of job they move into.”

It is all about flexibility, which we need. All of us parents have been there and understand that. Child care is quite often a nightmare, and always a juggle. Half the time parents are terrified that they will get a call just when they have an important meeting to go to.

The document also states:

“A study of lone parents who had recently moved into work had overwhelmingly chosen jobs where their hours fitted with looking after their children. It was common for interviewees to be working between 16 and 29 hours per week.”

Again, there was almost certainly not the flexibility to have a mini-job. Mini-jobs are important in enabling such flexibility. It is not right for parents, particularly parents of little children, to be forced into endless hours of work, or to work for more than 16 hours. New clause 2(5) is therefore extraordinarily unhelpful, and a retrograde step.

On parental employment, what happens when children are five and six is telling. This is about the youngest tots. When children are that age, parents are just going out into work, having previously perhaps been full-time parents. Employment of lone parents of children that age is about 55%, but the employment of partnered mothers is 75%, which is the parental employment rate. We can see, therefore, that there has been a massive societal shift into joint working among couples. There has been a move away from the traditional old-style model, whereby the bloke goes off to work and the woman stays at home to mind the kid and the kitchen sink, to more economic sharing and greater equality, which is a positive thing.

[Charlie Elphicke]

My hon. Friend makes an extraordinarily powerful point. Part of the reason for that is that a lot of scaremongering is going on. The scaremongers deny that the Bill provides that flexibility and say that people will lose out, but we know, from the detailed figures in the Budget and the briefing document to which I have referred, that most people will be far better off under the reforms, that they will have more money, and that work will always pay.

[Ms Buck]

On the subject of scaremongering, is the hon. Gentleman aware that in their letter to the Secretary of State on this issue, the organisations that could fairly be said to have a good grasp of the issue—from the Daycare Trust to Gingerbread, Family Action, the Child Poverty Action Group, Working Families, the Children’s Society, Save the Children and the Resolution Foundation—said that they were concerned that the proposals could effectively end the prospect of full-time work for single parents and second earners, and for couples on low and middle incomes who need support with child care costs, and that that will have the result of hampering their ability to find work, and making it more difficult for them to lift their families out of poverty?

The hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) supports the flexibility for people to work fewer hours—in principle, we all agree with that—but he wants to restrict the flexibility for people who want and need to work longer hours.

[Charlie Elphicke]

I do not make my money out of campaigning, and I never have. Anyone who has done that will know that maximum fear is the way to get the most subscriptions, the largest membership and the highest amount in grants. I make my money out of my only job, which is serving my 71,000 or so constituents and trying to do what is best.

Perhaps I am old-fashioned, but I occasionally open the Budget Red Book and look at the detailed figures. Table A2 on page 80 makes it clear that a lone parent with one child working 35 hours a week would have £105 without universal credit, and more or less the same with it. However, when parents work 10 hours, things change. A lone parent working 10 hours rises receives £20 without universal credit, and £53 with it. If we move to universal credit, those people will end up, broadly, with more money. That mini-job is massively incentivised by universal credit, which makes part-time working much easier.

Why does part-time working matter, and why should we give greater incentives for it? To answer that, we must look at the proportion of parents with child care responsibilities who are in work. Some 61% of lone parents who have children aged between five and six, who would find things difficult under new clause 2(5), work part-time, as do 64% of partnered mothers of children of that age: 64% of all mothers work part-time. The statistics are pretty clear that we have had a joint working revolution: there is much more sharing of economic power in couples, and more pooling of income. To a great extent, universal credit recognises that in the system.

There has also been a revolution involving women in the workplace. Often they work part-time, because even now there is a bias towards women having primary responsibility for child care. Finances might be shared, but the responsibility for child care tends to fall to women. That is what comes out pretty clearly from the figures. For that reason, we should allow women maximum flexibility. Why have a 16-hour cut-off, as new clause 2(5) proposes? I, for one, cannot agree with that. It is not the right way to go; it is a retrograde step.

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Housing costs

[Ms Buck]

I beg to move amendment 31, page 5, line 29, at end add—

‘(6) Regulations are to provide for the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government to review not less than annually the relationship between housing costs in the private rented sector and the level of the housing component of Universal Credit.

(7) Regulations are to provide that the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions must amend the calculation of housing costs where this is necessary to ensure that at least the 30th percentile of the list of private rented properties in each locality remains affordable to claimants, in light of the review under subsection (6).’.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment 32, in clause 68, page 52, line 19, at end add—

‘(4) After subsection (7) insert—

“(7A) In relation to a dwelling of which the landlord is a local housing authority or a registered provider of social housing, regulations under this section shall not permit the AMHB to be less than the actual amount of the liability in a case where a person has provided the relevant authority with such certificates, documents, information or evidence as are sufficient to satisfy the authority that the person is disabled and is living in a property specially adapted or particularly suited to meet the needs of that person.”’.

Amendment 72, page 52, line 19, at end insert—

‘(4) The Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a report on the impact of subsection (3) within 12 months of the coming into force of that subsection.’.

[Ms Buck]

These amendments draw out two strands from the wide-ranging set of debates that we had in Committee on the treatment of housing costs before and going into the universal credit. In today’s DWP questions, the Secretary of State, who is in his place, told my right hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State that I wanted to spend more on housing benefit whereas the shadow Secretary of State wanted to spend less. I want to put it clearly on the record that nothing could be further from the truth. I do not want housing benefit expenditure to rise and never have done. Nothing would give me more pleasure than seeing lower unemployment, rising incomes and low rents in both the private and social sectors that bring down the total housing benefit bill. I believe that Governments of both persuasions have been in error over the past 30-plus years in letting housing benefit take the strain of rising housing costs, especially given the deregulation of the private rented sector in the late 1980s, rather than investing in affordable housing supply over those three decades in a way that would have helped significantly in bringing down that total cost.

What I do not want to see, and what I fear may arise from the Government’s policy, is a set of arbitrary and ill-thought-out cuts to housing benefit and, indeed, local housing allowance that create homelessness and distress for vulnerable people and cause damage to the 400,000-plus working households in private rented accommodation whose housing support is going to be cut. It is worth noting that the homelessness statistics that the Department for Communities and Local Government produced on its website last week send out a warning message. For the first time in years there has been a significant increase in the number of households declaring themselves as homeless. There was a rise of 23% in the number of people approaching local councils for housing help—26,400 people approached their local authority for help in the first three months of 2011, and 11,350 applicants were accepted as being owed a main homelessness duty in the first quarter to March 2011, which is an increase of 18% on the figure for the same quarter last year and the first rise for seven years.

[Sarah Newton]

Surely the hon. Lady is going to acknowledge that all this is because of a very important step that this new Government have taken. We are honestly collecting the data on the number of homeless people. It was shameful that under the previous Government the whole system of counting homeless people was so rigged. It is no wonder we have seen this rapid rise, because we now have an honest appraisal of the situation and we can start to tackle the appalling legacy that we have inherited.

[Ms Buck]

I will be very interested to see the evidence for the hon. Lady’s assertion. Although I know that our two parties have differed in the past on their interpretation of “rough sleeping”—on street homelessness—and that there is a genuine debate to be had about how that is measured, I was not aware, and I stand to be corrected, that there has been a shift in the data set for the measurement of the number of people approaching local authorities as homeless and being accepted as such. Nothing on the DCLG website indicates that, so I dispute her definition and it seems to me that we are facing a genuine problem.

Even more worryingly, rent arrears and mortgage default were to blame for a growing share of the number of people who were approaching local authorities as homeless; although not the main cause, that is a growing cause of those applications. It gives me no satisfaction to see that; I do not want people to be made homeless. As we discussed in Committee, homelessness is one of the greatest traumas that any household can possibly face. The hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) and other Government Members must face up to the fact that the statistics show a growing trend just as the cuts in housing benefit begin to be flagged up and as people react to the changes in the incoming benefits.

The second set of data to come out in the past week of which we need to be cognisant was a survey released on Friday by the National Landlords Association. It found that 58% of all private residential landlords plan to reduce the number of properties they let to tenants on local housing allowance. Some 80% of landlords expressed concern about the reduction in local housing allowance rates from the average market rents of the bottom 30% and the same number were worried, as I shall discuss in the context of the relevant amendment, about the future local housing allowance increases being linked to the consumer prices index rather than true market rents. The survey also found that 90% of landlords stated they cannot afford to reduce their rents to absorb changes to the local housing allowance as the large majority are faced with mortgage repayments and rising running costs.

The worrying picture is that our discussions are put in context by the cuts in housing benefit that have already been through the House and were opposed by the Opposition, which are feeding through into the concerns of landlords. One point of concern is that when the Government assert that 30% of properties will remain available to tenants on local housing allowance, they ignore the fact that not all the properties in that threshold will be available to tenants because it will not necessarily be the landlords within that cohort who are prepared to let in the first place.

We will have to wait and see, but it is entirely reasonable for alarm bells to ring on the impact on homelessness when we look at those two sets of statistics. If we find either that households are in an affordability crisis or that landlords simply pull out of the housing benefit sector, particularly in those areas where the demand for private rented accommodation is greatest—that is, London, the south-east and some of our cities—we will have a severe problem and many the assumptions being made by the Government about savings are unlikely to be realised. Homelessness is an expensive process and places considerable pressure on local government.

[Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)]

Is there not a third warning bell, also, in the evidence that is being produced almost weekly that the inability of first-time buyers to obtain a reasonable mortgage means that they are forgoing the possibility of ever becoming homeowners and are renting? That is increasing not only in cities but across the country, apparently.

[Ms Buck]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Without any question, we are seeing a growth in the private rented sector for all those reasons, including the affordability crisis and the lending pressures in the home ownership sector. That means that the private rented sector, which we all applaud and support—we want a healthy private rented sector—can draw from an increased pool of potential tenants who are not on housing allowance. There will be competition for those properties between tenants who do not require housing allowance and those who do and are on the transitional protection path through the caps and reductions in the 30th percentile on which we have already agreed—I shall turn in a second to the further ratcheting down that is intrinsic to the future use of the consumer prices index rather than a local housing allowance determination—and that pressure will mean that a larger pool of people are frozen out of such accommodation.

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[Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con)]

I am following the hon. Lady’s arguments closely. I represent a Birmingham constituency where the average salary of a working family in the private sector is £22,450 a year. Even under the Government’s reforms, such a family could still claim £26,000 a year in benefits, which is more than they would receive by going out and working in a proper job. Does she accept that there is a problem that people in low-paid jobs who want to work see other people getting more and having a better quality of life by choosing not to work and to live on benefits?

[Ms Buck]

The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point but is mixing lots of different arguments, if he does not mind my saying so. The whole point of local housing allowance, as I was obviously explaining imperfectly, is that it is an in-work benefit. If a household’s income dips and they are in the private rented sector, they are entitled to the allowance, so we cannot compare an out-of-work household and an in-work household in the way he is trying to do. It is intended as a cushion for that household. Similarly—I know that you, Mr Deputy Speaker, would not wish me to be diverted—the overall benefit cap needs to be considered, among other things, in terms of an equivalent household size, and we will no doubt return to that debate because it is much less clear whether the Government’s core argument holds any water at all.

The argument about whether the maximum percentile that a household can claim in the private rented sector should be 50% or 30% of the local market has been and gone, so let us not return to it. All the amendment is arguing is that we must have a statutory mechanism for review to make absolutely sure that, as the CPI uprating bites further into the private rented sector, which it will, 30% of all private rented accommodation in a broad market rental area remains available. That is the Government’s commitment, and without such a mechanism that accommodation simply will not remain available.

We have to be very careful about monitoring that. The rate is to come down from 50% to 30%, but even 30% might not be achieved, because the CPI will further undermine what is available in the sector and landlords will withdraw from it because of the insecurity of the income stream; we are already seeing significant warnings of that. Property will not only be unavailable at 30%, but sometimes it will not be available at all. The projections for 2016 show that in parts of London it will go down to 19% or 16%, and in my borough it could go down to almost nothing—but let us not worry too much about that now. The anxiety is that we must ensure that at least that 30% remains available to people in the private rented sector, because if it does not, when they lose their income or their job they will be cast away from the labour market, from the work they were doing and, on top of that, from the networks of family, friends and connections that the Secretary of State, with great passion—I am absolutely convinced of his sincerity—believes is so important.

We simply cannot argue that we believe in stable communities, in family networks and in connecting people with the workplace if we then take away the very mechanisms that make all that possible. The argument has been developed, with convincing statistical underpinning, by academic experts that there is a real danger of that happening unless we have an adequate review mechanism. No proposal for such a mechanism exists at the moment, although there is a willingness to understand that there could be a problem. In Committee, the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller) said:

“The Secretary of State will be able to adjust rates to ensure that the housing support available does not become completely out of kilter or out of touch with local rental markets. We will monitor the impact of these measures and make further adjustments if it is right to do so”.––[Official Report, Welfare Reform Public Bill Committee, 3 May 2011; c. 711.]

That willingness to recognise a problem has therefore already been expressed by the Minister.

Also, I think that all three Ministers who are on the Front Bench have told us that the CPI rating will not last for ever, and that the arrangements could be reviewed at the end of the spending review period. However, the wording of the Bill is so wide that CPI or other measures could be used as a basis for setting rents under universal credit, and I think that Ministers are attracted to a permanent shift away from the idea of linking private sector rents to a market-based formula. That would be very dangerous and risky. We want the Government to offer clearer guarantees on how they will prevent an affordability and access crisis, which could in a very short time become even greater than the one that could be created by reducing the maximum percentile for local housing allowance claimants to 30%. We need a statutory assurance that monitoring will take place, and that it will lead to a proper review.

When we discussed child care and other elements of universal credit earlier, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) said that the success of universal credit would rest heavily on child care costs. I hope he does not think that I am disagreeing with him when I say that the treatment of child care and passporting costs will not be the only critical test for millions of people; the treatment of housing costs will be, as well. I am genuinely concerned that an underestimate of the real cost of housing is already feeding through into universal credit, which will lead to a lot of people being disappointed when universal credit fails to deliver on its promises in the way that we want it to.

Amendment 32 deals with under-occupation and adapted properties. The Government are planning to reduce housing benefit payments for 670,000 social housing tenants: one third of all working-age housing benefit claimants living in social housing can expect to see their benefits reduced in 2013. Under the new restricted size criteria, any household deemed to be under-occupying its home by one bedroom would lose 13% of its total housing benefit, while those under-occupying by two or more bedrooms would lose 23% of the total. The average cut across all households would be £676 a year.

We know that only a tiny minority of those affected will be able to downsize to avoid the penalty, due to the shortage of smaller properties and the striking regional imbalance between the level of housing need and under-occupation. That is because of the competing pressures that social landlords are under when it comes to meeting their statutory obligations to house homeless households and other people in priority need. Alarmingly, the Government do not want those affected to move, because if they did move, the Government would not be able to meet their savings targets. We have not so much an incentive scheme as a straightforward cut in income for poor households. When we discussed this in Committee, the Minister was unable to give us any assurance on exactly the true purpose of the benefit cut, as explicitly spelled out in the impact assessment.

I want to concentrate for a moment on disability and adapted properties. Of the 670,000 claimants—

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)]

The hon. Lady was present at oral questions this afternoon, when I tried to link the situation of 25 to 34-year-old single people who will be looking for shared accommodation with that of social tenants who have a spare room. Is she interested in the idea of social tenants, be they local authority or housing association, renting out spare rooms, thereby covering a shortfall in housing benefit and helping young single people at the same time?

[Ms Buck]

That is a reasonable option to allow people to take, but I seriously doubt whether it is an answer to the problem, for a whole host of reasons. In particular, there is a striking imbalance between where the social housing occupation is and where the demand for private rented accommodation is.

Many things worry me about what the Minister has just said, because here we are on Report, months after an impact assessment set out what the proposals are likely to mean, and suddenly an option as to how the Government think that the penalty might be avoided is thrown in. Let us sit down and have a proper impact assessment—a proper review. Let us see, for example, how any income from rental would be treated in the benefits system, because that could become subject to the same rules as non-dependant deduction, which would not leave people better off at all. Before the Minister asks me to regard it as a serious option, let us see exactly how it would be workable as regards the match between demand and supply and how it would be treated for the purposes of tax and other benefits.

[Kate Green]

Does my hon. Friend accept that there is a likelihood that from time to time, at least, if not constantly, disabled people may need extra space to accommodate overnight care? Therefore, the prospect of a tenant—a stranger, possibly—moving into their home would be completely impractical as well as potentially rather alarming.

[Ms Buck]

That is absolutely right; my hon. Friend makes a valid point. I am not going to say that just because someone is in a social tenancy they would not be able to have somebody else living in their home. People make that decision in the private sector; morally, it is not a completely absurd thing to do. However, I do not know whether it deals with the problem in any meaningful sense or what all the implications will be.

People with disabilities are, by definition, much more likely to have formal or informal care or to want the capacity to have friends and relatives coming in to provide them with care. Yet we know from the Government’s impact assessment that 66% of all those affected by the cut in benefit in the social housing sector are categorised as disabled—not all severely disabled; I understand that—and that between 101,000 and 108,000 of those properties, depending on which definition one accepts, are specifically adapted for their needs. In Committee, the Minister made some reassuring noises about the problem. She told us that the Government were prepared to

“look in detail at how we can ensure that there are exemptions for individuals who are disabled, where their homes may have been subject to extensive adaptations to accommodate that."

However, earlier in the debate she had told us:

“Providing an exemption for all adapted accommodation would not be the right approach”

and that exemptions should be applied only where making a fresh adaptation would cost more than

“allowing someone to stay where they are.”––[Official Report, Welfare Reform Public Bill Committee, 3 May 2011; c. 685-716.]

That prompts several important questions about the sheer level of bureaucracy that will be necessary to send somebody into every single one of those 108,000 adapted properties to carry out an official survey to establish the extent of those adaptations and come up with a cost-benefit analysis to see whether a move to alternative property will produce a cost benefit, and if it does not to assess the margin of error. If an adaptation would cost £10,000, but it was deemed that the cost saving would be £9,500, would the person with the disability be expected to move from their flat? Would the difference be £1 or £20? This is one of those counter-arguments that sounds seductively simple until one starts picking away at it and finds that it does not sound very good at all.

[Dame Anne Begg]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the problem is not just the cost, but the upheaval and the incredible time it takes to adapt a house? I know about this because I have done it three times myself. It takes at least six months, and all that time, the person might not be able to get into their own home.

[Ms Buck]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I have been drawn into arguing with the Government on their own terms, which is a clinical, cash-led way of debating such things: if it will cost £5, someone may have to lose their home; that is the only measure. However, my hon. Friend is right, and we expressed such anxieties about the whole under-occupation policy in Committee. We could be talking about somebody in an adapted property, somebody who has been in their family home for 30 years, or somebody who has been in their home for 30 years but has recently been widowed or lost a child and is suddenly deemed to be under-occupying.

[Glenda Jackson]

Is there not another bureaucratic hurdle for people who are in adapted homes or, as is often the case in my constituency, elderly people who have lived in a place for a long period whose families have moved? Both categories could be defined as vulnerable. I am not saying that all young people in this country are necessarily hell-raisers, but would there not be a justifiable cause for an additional tenant to go through a Criminal Records Bureau check?

[Ms Buck]

I am not going to be drawn into debating the advantages and disadvantages of an argument that has just been thrown into the air by the Minister. In some circumstances, the idea may work. Some individuals of working age will actively want to downsize and will say, “We are in a three-bedroom property and it is too big for us. We have been waiting for years to get into a one-bedroom property.” In the real world, we all deal as constituency MPs with people with a huge number of different needs. There are people in all different circumstances, and these different options will work for some people.

The point, surely, in discussing this amendment is that there are 101,000 to 108,000 households in properties that are specifically adapted for their needs who, despite the slightly more sympathetic noises coming from the Minister, in just over 18 months will lose up to 23% of their housing benefit. I am not sure that the vague and general ideas being thrown out by the ministerial team are doing anything to help us deal with that reality.

[Sarah Newton]

Does the hon. Lady agree that what we are talking about is treating people like people? All people have their individual circumstances and the decision makers are best placed to use their discretion to tackle these issues. Within housing benefit, there is discretionary funding so that people can be treated like humans. Finally, to reassure the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Glenda Jackson), pensioners are of course excluded from the concerns that she raised.

[Ms Buck]

Pensioners are excluded. As I have argued, the attempt to move people of working age in order to avoid the disability penalty is likely to stop registered social landlords from moving pensioners who want to downsize voluntarily, because there simply is not enough flexibility in the social rented sector to allow that to happen. The hon. Lady is making my point for me: there is no discretion. The 670,000 social housing tenants who will be subject to the housing benefit cut, and the 101,000 to 108,000 people in specifically adapted properties, will be subject to a benefit cap. There will not be any discretion. All that the Government can say, apart from mentioning the possibility of people taking in a lodger or moving to an alternative property in a few cases, is that the discretionary housing payment will sort it all out.

[Dame Anne Begg]

Grampian Housing Association, one of the social landlords in my area, has written to me and said:

“If this goes ahead it will increase demand for property sizes that we simply cannot supply and lead to a great deal of stress for the families involved.”

It knows its housing stock, and it knows that it does not have houses of the size required.

[Ms Buck]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We know from all the evidence that has been given to us by the experts who are running housing associations that they do not have flexibility in their stock. The one and two-bedroom properties that are needed for people downsizing from three and four-bedroom houses are not available. They simply do not exist. There is not a supply that will enable anything other than a tiny minority of people to avoid this punitive benefit cap, because people will not be able to move. The property is not there for them to move to.

Nor is the property there for people who need adapted properties. I think it was my hon. Friend who made the point that when the cost-benefit analysis tips in favour of someone being required to move because of the value of their adaptations, they then have to make adaptations to another property. I had someone in my surgery last week who had an occupational therapist from Westminster council visit them in November about adapting their property, and they had not heard another word. That person, a wheelchair user who is unable to use their own bathroom, has been waiting eight months for the process of adaptations to be even started. We can multiply that situation by 108,000.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Has my hon. Friend noticed yet another anomaly that will arise? If somebody moves from an adapted home to another home that then has to be adapted, what guarantee is there that the first house will get a tenant who needs the adaptations that have already been done? There is therefore a waste of resources, not the best possible use of property that housing associations and councils attempt to achieve.

[Ms Buck]

There is the remotest chance of the property that such a person is leaving being occupied by someone who requires the same level of adaptation. It is like playing three-dimensional chess—it will be almost impossible to fit all the people into the properties that exist. At the moment there is supposed to be a flood of people who will leave under-occupied properties in the north-west of England and swap with people in London and the south-east. Then when all the individuals who need adapted properties are considered, it becomes a literal impossibility to ensure that properties match people’s needs properly.

[Sarah Newton]

The hon. Lady is being very generous in giving way to me.

I imagine that there are a great number of vulnerable people who are sitting at home listening to this debate, or who will read Hansard. For the sake of clarity, I think it is incredibly important to go back to something that was said earlier and remind the whole House that people who are disabled are not subject to the benefits cap.

[Ms Buck]

To be absolutely clear to the hon. Lady, I am not talking about the overall benefit cap. [Interruption.] No, it is a benefit cap. It is a benefit cut.

[Steve Webb]

You are confusing people.

[Ms Buck]

I am not confusing anybody. It is a cut in housing benefit of up to 23% for 670,000 households, of which, according to the Government’s own impact assessment, 400,000 include a disabled person and 108,000 are in adapted properties. Most of those people will have no means of avoiding the cut in their housing benefit, because there is nowhere for them to go. Even if there were, the Government do not want some of them to go there, because then they would not meet their own savings targets.

[Jenny Willott]

The hon. Lady said that she thought that there was no earthly chance of somebody with a similar level of disability needing a property that had become available. I am sure that, like me, she must have an awful lot of people coming to her constituency surgery who have disabilities and have been waiting a very long time for adapted homes. [Interruption.] Disregarding the rest of the debate, and the Labour Members who are hollering at me, the chances are that there will be somebody who wants those properties. That is not a reason to go ahead with moving people, but it is not true to say that there will not be people waiting who need those properties.

[Ms Buck]

The point that the hon. Lady misses is this: when people come to my advice surgery and say that they need an adapted property, they do not mean that they need one in Merseyside. That is the fundamental problem. Not only is there a regional imbalance in the supply of accommodation, but each individual has individual needs. If they do not, why does my local authority employ Dependability Ltd to send occupational therapists to assess individual needs? I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) would support me on this, but every individual with a disability is likely to have personalised requirements. That is my central argument. Not everybody has wheelchair access adaptations or larger bathrooms or lower counters. Adaptations are highly tailored to the individual’s circumstances, as they should be.

In some cases, the Government’s proposals will work like a dream. Nobody is arguing that in no instance will a perfect match be found and people will be satisfied. My central point is that that will involve a minority of the 108,000 who will be affected. I cannot see—housing associations support my analysis—how the result could be anything different. The measure is likely to result in a phenomenal waste of money on adapted properties and/or to trap people with disabilities who are by definition on low and fixed incomes with a cut in their living standards, which is exactly what the Government told us they wish to avoid.

Last year, the Secretary of State claimed that disabled people had “nothing to fear” from his welfare plans, adding:

“It is a proud duty to provide financial security to the most vulnerable members of our society and this will not change.”

If disabled people are in an adapted property with an extra bedroom, they have every reason, as things stand, to worry.

To return to the intervention from the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott), the discretionary housing payment, which the Government repeatedly say is a panacea, is the philosopher’s stone, as I described in Committee. Somehow, the £40 million a year fund will stretch to cover overall cuts in housing benefit of £1.5 billion. There is no earthly way in which it can stretch sufficiently to cover the protection of vulnerable younger people who are affected by the single-room cuts, of people in accommodation that has been adapted for disabled use, and of all those whom we want to keep in their homes because we want them to keep their jobs when their property becomes unaffordable owing to overall housing benefit cuts and the downrating from CPI.

[Glenda Jackson]

As my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) mutters from a sedentary position, the scheme is not voluntary. That is surely the antithesis of what Government Members have argued—they say that their plans treat everybody as individuals. The scheme is an imposition.

[Ms Buck]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The scheme is not voluntary. Voluntary downsizing has a proud history. Good local authorities and housing associations provide voluntary downsizing, which is sensible. The Government’s measure requires 108,000 households whose properties have been adapted for disabled purposes to take, within the next 18 months, a significant cut in their housing benefit, or to move, regardless of the value of that adaptation. The Minister implies a mammoth bureaucratic exercise to evaluate every one of those adaptations, and to establish individual cost-benefit analyses in every case, in the hope, which I suspect will be a forlorn one, that an appropriate property will be available for people to move into when they fall foul of such analyses. That appropriate property does not have to be within the local authority area or even the region where those people have family, friends, support and, in some cases, employment.

Those two concerns, of the many that the Opposition have on housing costs, are the subject of the amendments that we have tabled. I hope that the Minister, who has made sympathetic noises on both issues in Committee, goes a little further tonight, and gives us solid and binding reassurances that there is a way of resolving the benefit trap that will catch so many people, in order, as Ministers have frequently stated in the media, to deal with a very small number of high-value claimants who dominate the media agenda. It is not fair to capture 108,000 disabled people and 750,000 claimants of local housing allowance, all of whom will be affected by the housing benefit cuts, in order to deal with a small number of extreme cases, on which we could otherwise have had a sensible debate about attempting to resolve.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Miller)]

I thank the hon. Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck)for taking the time to talk to us about her amendments today. When I heard some of the reports on the radio this morning I thought that today would be a big day, when we would really be able to understand the Opposition’s approach to welfare reform—but on the basis both of Question Time and of the debates on the Bill, many of us feel that there is a lot more work to be done.

Today was an important opportunity for Opposition Front Benchers to set out their amendments and how they would change the Bill, to show how they would deal with housing benefit. I have listened hard, but there is still no clarity. In fact, what we have heard is more and more contradictions from the hon. Lady. In her opening remarks she said that she did not want the housing benefit bill to rise, and she did not agree with housing benefit taking the strain. However, the amendments run completely contrary to those objectives. Amendment 31 would significantly erode the savings that the Government propose, and amendment 32 would draw the exemption so wide that it would be far broader than anything recommended by the specialist organisations. That is a concern.

Nor are we any wiser as a result of the Opposition Leader’s speech today, which did more to create further confusion in this area. He talked about supporting people into housing as a result of their volunteering or working. That may sound familiar, but if the Opposition seek to link volunteering and work with housing, we hope that they do not intend to undermine eligibility for lone parents when it comes to their housing needs. It is difficult to comprehend how the hon. Lady will achieve her objectives with her amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Maria Miller]

Will the hon. Lady forgive me for making a little progress? Many other hon. Members want to come in on this debate, and I want to set out my response to the amendments before we run out of time.

Before I turn to the specific amendments, I want to pick up on what the hon. Member for Westminster North said about rising homelessness. I am sure that she believed in the effectiveness of the previous Government, but she cannot expect the sort of impacts on homelessness that she implied after just one month of a policy being in place. I do not accept that the policies we are advocating will have the impacts on homelessness that she talked about. She has to get real: these policies have only been in place since April, and could not be driving the sorts of changes that she mentioned by this stage.

The hon. Lady said that her premise was affordability and access to housing. May I remind her that, given that 40%—and in some areas, including coastal towns, 70%—of those in the private rental market are in receipt of housing benefit, it is critical that we keep control of the amount of money going out in housing benefit? That way we can help the very first-time buyers whom she purports to want to help, who are finding it so difficult to get into the purchase market at the moment, and who need to go into the rental market. The previous Government let those people down by not keeping control of housing benefit rents during their tenure.

[Ms Buck]

The statistic that 40% of the market is subsidised by the local housing allowance is central to the Government’s argument. Will the hon. Lady finally, helpfully source that figure? Figures released in the English housing survey last month confirmed that only 24% of those in the total private rented sector in England were on LHA. Although there are regional variations, it would be helpful if we could finally and definitively have the source for that 40% claim.

[Maria Miller]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question. I shall be happy to write to her with the full details, and to remind her that the proportion is only 40% on average; as I said, it is 70% in some coastal areas. That is a significant issue that helps to determine the rental rates that many people—[Interruption.] I think I just said that I would write to the hon. Lady with the details. I do not have them to hand now.

The important matter to which I now turn is my response to the two amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Westminster North and the one tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott) for us to consider today. We said in the universal credit White Paper that an appropriate amount would be added to the universal credit award to meet the costs of rent for claimants. We also said that levels of support for rent would be broadly similar to the support provided through housing benefit at the time that claimants began to move on to universal credit. In the private rented sector, we will build on the local housing allowance approach, incorporating the reforms that we are making over the coming year. This will give private rental tenants access to about 30% of the rental market in their areas, including most of London.

We also need, however, to do more to constrain the growth in rents, which is why increases will be limited in line with the consumer prices index. This will ensure that we continue to put the sort of downward pressure on rents that is so important to keeping control of our budgets and to affordability for those not in the housing benefit market.