Welfare Reform Bill

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2011 Commons Chamber

Our amendment 27 therefore seeks to align the universal credit definitions of income for self-employed people with those used in the tax system and in tax credits. The Chartered Institute of Taxation’s low incomes tax reform group has pointed out that allowances are made in the tax credit system for investment in business assets and equipment and for trading losses that can be set against other income or the profits on later periods of trading. Those arrangements reflect the reality of being self-employed. The idea that the self-employed are earning at least the minimum wage for every hour they work in self-employment is a complete illusion, and if the Bill is not amended it will destroy the very effective support that the tax credit system currently offers to self-employment.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

The question of the income levels of the self-employed is not as simple as the right hon. Gentleman makes out. Under the current capital allowance system, a self-employed individual can invest £25,000 in a piece of machinery and immediately wipe off their profits, and it causes deep resentment when they are then able to claim family tax credit. The Government are trying to create a system that supports the self-employed but is fair to other taxpayers.

[Stephen Timms]

The problem is that the proposed system does not support the self-employed in the way that the tax credit system supports them, because it treats the self-employed as if they are earning at least the minimum wage for every hour they put into their business. I know that the hon. Gentleman is genuinely interested in the position of the self-employed and I think he is supportive of self-employment, but he will know that it is absurd to suggest that a person who starts up in self-employment will be earning at least the minimum wage from day one. That will not be the case, of course; there may be weeks, or perhaps months, in which they earn nothing at all. The current tax rate system reflects that, but the new system will not.

[Guto Bebb]

Obviously I support the self-employed and want the universal credit system to support them, but we need to recognise that there are situations such as the following: somebody sets up in business to breed angora rabbits for their wool and manages to make £80 in sales in the year. I have not made that up, and it is absurd that that type of business should be supported by the taxpayer.

[Stephen Timms]

I am sorry to hear the hon. Gentleman belittling self-employment. For many people, including people who have lost their jobs, a move into self-employment can be absolutely the right thing to do, and, over time, they might find that they are able to develop a serious business—not breed rabbits—and earn a living from it. We should be valuing, not ridiculing, such contributions to the economy. I am afraid that there are many problems with the Bill, and one of them is that it so badly weakens and undermines the support that is currently available for self-employment.

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[Stephen Timms]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that self-employment is a crucial element of our economy for many people, including those with caring responsibilities; others who, for other reasons, are not necessarily able to commit to a full-time job; and, indeed, those who simply want the opportunity to build up a business for themselves—it is crucial that the system supports them. Tax credits have done so, but I am afraid that universal credit will not. That is a real worry and the approach being taken flies in the face of Government statements of support for self-employment.

[Guto Bebb]

rose—

[Stephen Timms]

I will gladly give way, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will support self-employment this time.

[Guto Bebb]

I am surprised to hear those comments. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is talking about supporting businesses and self-employed people perhaps working a day a week or two days a week. How does that fit in with his proposals on supporting child care in respect of micro-jobs and part-time jobs?

[Stephen Timms]

I have made it clear that the priority should be to maintain child care support for those who are currently receiving it. There is a case, with which perhaps the hon. Gentleman agrees, for extending that support to others. If that is to be done—and I can well see the case for it—the funding needs to be provided for it. What we cannot do is take support away from one group, making work impossible for them, in order to support another group. If we only knew the Government’s policy on child care support, we could have a proper debate about it, but that appears to be where they are heading. They simply have not had the ability to put a policy together and tell us what it is. The hon. Gentleman has suggested that perhaps too many self-employed people are either earning a negligible amount or are under-declaring their profits.

[Guto Bebb]

It is important to correct the record. I did not state that self-employed people were under-declaring their profits; I simply stated that the capital allowance system allows the self-employed, completely legally, to reduce their profits to nothing by purchasing an asset. That was the simple point that I was making.

[Stephen Timms]

That is a long-standing feature of the tax system for businesses generally, and we should be encouraging investment. I see it as a strength of the current system that such necessary investment is supported. The hon. Gentleman is right in the sense that universal credit will remove all that completely. I am afraid that, as the Chartered Institute of Taxation has pointed out, it will be a far less supportive system for self-employment than the current one.

[Guto Bebb]

Again, I need to clarify the record. It is important to understand that the capital allowance system has been changed fundamentally in the past two years as a response to the economic crisis that we are facing. Someone could not previously claim 100% allowances, but they can at this point in time. A 100% allowance on the purchase of an asset worth £25,000 results in the net profits of a small business reducing to nothing and therefore they are supported by the tax credits system. It is important that this Government support the self-employed, but not in a way that encourages them to make investment decisions for the purpose of universal credit rather than for the purpose and benefit of their own business.

[Stephen Timms]

I am not clear whether the hon. Gentleman supports the fact that we have had 100% capital allowances recently, although I hope he does. When the downturn hit, they were introduced for a very good reason, which was to encourage enterprise and investment, particularly on the part of small businesses.

One of the problems with the Bill is that in many cases self-employed people will be strongly pressured to lie about the hours they have worked. They are not going to admit to having worked 18 hours a day, as some are doing, because they will then lose pound for pound from their universal credit, as it will be assumed that for every one of those 18 hours they have earned at least the minimum wage. This is a bad policy and it needs to be changed.

Amendment 33 may cause some puzzlement. Many people will not know that the Government intend to remove pension credit from people over pensionable age who have a spouse under pensionable age. That has not been announced anywhere and the Pensions Minister has not stood up to tell us about it. We find it buried in, of all places, the middle of schedule 2, on page 114 of this Bill. If the older person were living alone, they would receive pension credit. Those people will in future be penalised because they have a younger spouse. This is a new couples penalty, but we have been assured that the Conservative party wanted to stamp out such penalties. Indeed, the Secretary of State said, once again, in DWP questions earlier that he wanted to remove couples penalties from the system—but here he is inventing a new one. That will change the pension entitlements for some couples with very little notice and, in some cases, by a substantial sum. If Ministers want to change the arrangements for pension credit, they should set that out openly, the provisions should be made in the Pensions Bill and there should be full discussion of the change. They should certainly not try to sneak it past us in the second schedule to this Bill.

We have now established that of the 610,000 recipients of pension credit with a partner, almost 100,000 have a partner aged under 60. The difference between the couple rate for jobseeker’s allowance and the pension credit rate is more than £100 a week, so for each year that a couple is in receipt of JSA rather than pension credit, those couples stand to lose more than £5,000.

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[Sheila Gilmore]

I am not convinced that the new clause does away with the entire principle of the mini-job, although I would certainly have liked—preferably before we embarked on the Bill—a debate about what was, for me, a new idea, possibly good and possibly bad. I do not think we have fleshed out exactly what we are doing in this regard.

As I said in an intervention earlier, if the idea is to encourage people to undertake work involving all hours of employment—given that they are able to obtain such work—I am not sure where the so-called mini-jobs will be found or what their quality will be. Are we talking about six or eight hours a week, as some people seem to be? Where will the jobs be, to what extent will they increase earnings, and will the necessary child care be available?

[Guto Bebb]

I am surprised that the hon. Lady refers to micro-jobs as if they were not important. I should have expected a Scottish Member to be delighted by the Government’s attempts to make work pay. Shockingly, the number of people who have never been employed in Scotland increased from 37,000 in 2000 to 40,000 in 2005, and to 45,000 in 2010. I think that, rather than being disparaging about micro-jobs, the hon. Lady should welcome the fact that the Government are serious about showing that work pays and gives people self-respect in our society.

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[Kate Green]

I am prepared to accept that life is changing, albeit rather more slowly than the hon. Gentleman suggests, but let us not forget that the partnered mothers who work do so largely in part-time jobs and that their incomes usually make the smaller contribution to family budgets. Let us not forget the extensive evidence that continues to show that women fulfil the bulk of child care responsibilities. Let us not take the risk that by removing money from the main carers of children, whether that is the fundamental intention or not, children become the losers in the drive to achieve the glowing future that the hon. Gentleman seeks to describe. All the evidence suggests that money is most likely to be spent on children when it is paid to their main carers, so I am concerned that that should be built into our system as a default to ensure that that is where the money goes.

Other colleagues wish to contribute to the debate and we have had a full discussion on a number of issues raised by the proposed amendments, so I do not need to go into further detail on many of those points, other than to offer my strong support for amendment 26. As we move towards this fundamental change to our social security system, which Ministers themselves have described as the most far reaching since the introduction of the welfare state after the second world war, it is absolutely imperative that, if anything, more welfare advice is available, at least during the transitional period, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) has pointed out, because it will surely be needed. Today’s debate is reaffirming the fact that this will not be a simple benefit to administer in practice. If we are to maximise take-up and ensure that people receive their entitlements, which I know from our discussions in Committee is the goal of Ministers, it is vital that proper advice is in place to support people as they navigate their way through the introduction of the new system under the Bill.

[Guto Bebb]

It is a great privilege to be called to speak in the debate. Having been here all afternoon, I feel as though I am back in the Bill Committee. My hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) must again send my apologies to Downing street, because I have decided not to attend a party there in order to be here this evening.

I wish to speak about four specific issues and to new clauses 3 and 4 and amendments 23, 24, 27, 28 and 29. Before doing so, it is important to set today’s good and wide-ranging discussions in context. It is a privilege to follow the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green), who spoke with great knowledge and understanding on these matters in Committee and in her contribution to the House today, but an important point that we must bear in mind is this: the reason we need to look at changing the current welfare system is that it has not worked.

I challenged the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) on the figures for the number of people in the United Kingdom who have never worked, which worsened from 2000 to 2010, and the figures I quoted for Scotland were supplied by the Office for National Statistics. The figures for the United Kingdom are absolutely deplorable. The number of people who have never worked increased from 572,000 in 2000 to 841,000 in 2010, when the previous Government left office. As a Member who represents a Welsh constituency, it is disappointing to state that the figures in Wales also show a deterioration. The context for the welfare reform package, therefore, is the fact that the current system is not working.

[Sarah Newton]

Does my hon. Friend share my utter frustration that over the past 10 years, under the Labour Administration, so many of the new jobs that were created in the economy went to people immigrating into this country, rather than to those who were abandoned by Labour in long-term unemployment without the skills and support to get back into work?

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[Guto Bebb]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I say to the hon. Lady, and remind all hon. Members, that any interventions or contributions in the Chamber are supposed to address the whole House and that she should keep an eye on the Chair. Otherwise, she will not know when I am trying to get her to sit down.

[Guto Bebb]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is something that was reflected in the comments of the hon. Member for Edinburgh East, who, in relation to the aim of our welfare proposals to support people into micro-jobs, was quite disparaging of that type of job. Indeed, she stated on more than one occasion that we should consider the “type” of job that people will be able to take up as part of our reforms. I think that that is a symptom of the problem.

In my constituency of Aberconwy we have worked extremely hard to try to turn the tourism industry from something that is seasonal to something that is year-round. We have put a lot of emphasis on trying to ensure that the seaside resort of Llandudno is no longer somewhere that attracts people only for three months in the summer. By investing in conference facilities and so forth, we have tried to ensure that the hotel and service industries supporting tourism in the town work throughout the year. We have seen a huge growth in employment in the tourism sector in Llandudno over the past 10 years, yet that growth has been filled largely by people from eastern Europe who are willing to work hard.

From my point of view, the incredible sadness is that those individuals who have gone into what some Opposition Members would call “poor jobs” have ended up working themselves into positions of responsibility and management. I despair when I go out knocking on doors during election campaigns and meet people in the town who have lived there all their lives but have not grasped those opportunities. They live in a system that has allowed Opposition Members to forget their consciences because they have been able to say that they are providing money. There is more to the welfare state than providing money: we have to provide aspiration and a concept of self-reliance. We have to send out a message not just as a Government, but as a society, that work not only has to pay, but that it is the route to better oneself and one’s family. That seems to have been missing from the Opposition’s contributions to the whole debate.

Finally, it is also worth making quick reference to the comments made by the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon), who is no longer in her place. She said that she was sincerely of the view that the Department for Work and Pensions should make no effort to hassle and harass people who are unable to take up opportunities to work because of child care issues and so forth. I was intrigued by the use of the word “harass” in relation to trying to support people back into employment. One aspect of the Bill that we must understand is that it is not happening in isolation, but hand in hand with investment in the Work programme, which will try to ensure that people are not left to fester on benefits or have an existence on welfare. The Government are trying to reform the welfare state, but we are doing so in a way that tries to support people back into employment, and that aspiration should be shared by all Members of the House.

New clause 3 makes an important point. I disagree with it as it has been tabled, but I think that we will need to look very carefully at how we deal with free school meals in the system, because it is an issue of real concern to parents. Yes, of course they want to take the opportunity to have a job, and of course they are reassured by the fact that the reforms we are putting in place will make work pay, but as part of that, if they have three or four children, how we deal with free school meals is clearly appropriate and does not work against the proposals to ensure that work pays.

I fail to understand why the Government are being castigated for not providing enough detail in the legislation. The reason that we have not yet done so is that this is an incredibly difficult proposition to get right, as Members on both sides of the House have agreed. I see nothing wrong with saying that we will endeavour to get it right and that we are going to ask the experts to look at the issue on our behalf. I am reassured by the Minister’s comments in Committee, when he stated categorically that our aim was not to make any family currently in receipt of free school meals worse off.

[Ms Buck]

The hon. Gentleman is arguing that the Bill will make work pay and that we should accept it without these crucial details. Does he accept that key child care charities, when making their submissions to the Government following the seminar, pointed out that 250,000 families would see their entitlements cut by £30 to £35 a week, that some would face a marginal rate of deduction of 100%, and that a lone parent on the minimum wage working for more than 24 hours a week would have a marginal rate of deduction of 94%? If we are being asked to believe that the Bill will always make work pay, we should be able to understand what its impact will be and have a chance to interrogate the Government properly.

[Guto Bebb]

That is an interesting contribution, but in truth I fail to see how those charities can make those calculations when we have not yet brought any proposals to the table. It is difficult to understand how those calculations were made, unless they were based on hearsay or assumptions.

Asking the experts to look at this on our behalf will enable us to introduce a set of proposals that will work. Also, hon. Members should be reassured by the fact that we will allow Parliament to look again at the proposals before they are enacted. That will allow scrutiny once they have been developed in detail. I agree with Opposition Members who have stated that the free school meals policy needs to work. Ultimately, there is no point in creating a reform to the welfare state to make work pay if it does not take into account the impact of the free school meals entitlement.

We need to be careful about new clause 4, because it fails to take into account the complexities that I have discussed with colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions relating to the different arrangements for prescription charges in the various parts of the United Kingdom. Of course universal credit must take into account the need for some kind of support for prescription charges in England, but the situation is different in Wales and Scotland, where, for reasons best known to the Governments in Cardiff and Edinburgh, people do not need to pay for their prescriptions. I find that policy very odd. I can walk into a chemist in Llandudno and get a free prescription, whereas I would have to pay for it in London. Personally, I would be happy to pay a small contribution rather than getting support in that way.

The issue of passported benefits relating to prescriptions is an important one that needs to be looked at. We cannot end up with a system that builds compensation for prescriptions into a universal benefit for the whole United Kingdom without taking into account the complexity that I have just described. I applaud the fact that we are looking at this in detail and trying to introduce a policy that will be fair to all. I am surprised that the Opposition see the fact that we are giving these matters a great deal of care and attention as something to belittle, rather than something to celebrate.

As a Conservative Member, I would find it difficult to argue against the presumption of people saving for a rainy day. I find surprising some Opposition Members’ arguments that people who fall on hard times should not use their savings. If that had always been the argument in relation to every possible hard time, there might be some merit to it. However, we heard the bizarre argument from the hon. Member for Edinburgh East against someone who had had their working hours reduced having to use their savings rather than rely on universal credit, even though I suspect that she would be willing to continue with the current situation, in which someone who becomes unemployed, which is much worse, is expected to use their savings before being able to claim anything from the state.