Welfare Reform Bill

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

That would depend on the circumstances. It is obviously important that a deduction of earnings takes into account the potential impact on the individual, so we would need to take into account other payments. Ultimately, it is a basic principle that recovery of overpaid benefits should not cause undue hardship, so all circumstances would need to be taken into account. I should clarify that council tax benefit will be deducted from council tax liability, so it will not be administered in quite the same way.

Imposing a DEA is intended to be an administratively simple process that replaces the current practice of obtaining an attachment of earnings order by application to the court. The ability of the Department for Work and Pensions to make DEAs on its own authority sends out a strong signal to potential fraudsters and will prove a useful tool in the fraud and error strategy. I hope, particularly given the comments made today by the Leader of the Opposition, that the Opposition will welcome this as a sensible measure to take against people who defraud the system.

We think that the measures will also encourage claimants in debt to be more aware of the possibility of deduction at source, reducing any expectation that they will avoid repaying debt. There is always a concern that they will think that they can just pile money up and up, and that there will be no day of reckoning. The proposals make it much simpler for us to ensure that there is indeed a day of reckoning.

The measure will make use of an existing process used by the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission, with which businesses are already familiar. It is a matter of routine for an employer to make a child maintenance-related deduction from a person’s salary cheque each month, and this measure will use the same process. The provision also allows for the levy of an administration charge against the debtor by the employer administering the deduction, offsetting any increased administrative costs resulting from the increased use of earnings attachment as a recovery method.

Using a DEA to recover debt does not remove a debtor’s rights to challenge any decision relating to the recovery of benefits or the imposition of a civil penalty. This relates to the point just raised by the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford). For example, when an overpayment occurs in relation to an award, an independent decision maker decides whether a recoverable overpayment exists. As I set out in Committee, there are circumstances in which overpayments will be recovered, and circumstances in which they will not. We will focus on offering discretion to our front-line staff in judging what is right and what is wrong. We accept that there will be times when an overpayment results from an administrative error within the Department, and that we should accept the blame for that and not seek recovery of the overpayment. The general position, however, is that if someone receives money that they should not have received, we will expect them to pay it back. If they refuse and have already started work, this mechanism will enable us to recover the money.

In addition, there will be a right of appeal to an independent appeal tribunal, should the person be unhappy with the original decision. So there is still a full judicial process available, similar to the one available when a sanction is imposed that could lead to the withdrawal of benefits. The claimant has the right first to go to the decision maker and then to a tribunal, and those rights will remain in this situation. However, we will not have to go to court to secure the original order to make a deduction of earnings.

Before taking action to impose a DEA, we will ensure that the debtor is aware that we are taking such action. We are also keen to remain mindful of our welfare obligations. We do not, for instance, want to push the debtor into leaving work in order to avoid a repayment under a DEA. This measure must be applied with common sense and care. In certain instances, it might be determined that another method of recovery should be employed, or that arrangements should be made so that the DEA commences only after other commitments have been cleared. This relates to the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) raised a moment ago: we will take into account other commitments.

The DEA is designed to recover debt from those who currently seek to avoid repayment—those who hope that they can avoid paying the money back. Those who comply with requests for repayment and who either come to a reasonable arrangement to repay or can show that they are currently unable to repay will not have a DEA imposed. I am sure that hon. Members will agree that when someone refuses to meet their obligations to repay benefit debt, such powers should be available to the relevant authorities to make recovery.

That is all that the new clause and the other amendments are designed to do. They are designed to ensure that we treat people fairly and appropriately within the system. When necessary we can recover benefits directly from people who are still on benefits, but we cannot currently do that easily, without going to court, from people who have moved into PAYE employment. These provisions will allow us to change that. I believe that this is a prudent and sensible step. It is very much in keeping with our anti-fraud strategy, and I hope that it will be in keeping with that of the Opposition as well. I hope that the new clause will command support on both sides of the House.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

I welcome this opportunity to respond to this first group of amendments. It is certainly one of the less contentious groups that we shall consider, and the Minister should not imagine that we will be equally amenable throughout the debate today. The new clause aims to amend the Social Security Administration Act 1992 to allow the Government to recover overpayments resulting from mistakes or fraud in out-of-work benefits and housing benefit, as well as in universal credit and the other contributory benefits.

I can well see why the Minister wants to make these changes. In particular, because universal credit will encompass people who are in work as well as those who are out of work, it makes sense for the recovery of overpayments to be extended into earnings received in work, as he has outlined.

However, a number of questions need to be asked about these plans. The Minister has already been pressed about the mechanism for appeals. The changes will certainly require a good deal of co-operation from employers, as those are the organisations on which the Government will be serving notices to deduct from earnings. Employers will bear the burden of the administration of these deductions through having to pay in amounts, keep records of those amounts, and keep the Secretary of State informed if the person concerned leaves their employment.

The Minister has made the perfectly reasonable point that a system already exists for child support payments, but in order to take into account the additional burden that he is imposing, the Government are allowing for the employer to deduct an amount in respect of their administration costs. We need to have some idea of the amount that employers will be permitted to deduct, which should be seen to be fair by the person whose pay is being deducted, while adequately compensating employers. Will the Minister tell us a little more about how that amount will be calculated, and how it relates to the existing arrangements for child support that he touched on?

The amendments allow for a level of earnings below which earnings must not be reduced by the deductions. Again, that seems appropriate, but we need to know how that level of earnings will be prescribed. There could be a significant impact on work incentives, particularly for people who have received overpayments and who may well have been acting entirely innocently, having been confused or having made a mistake—or perhaps the job centre has made a mistake. If the amount is too low, claimants who are out of work could see little gain from moving into work. Additionally, if the deductions are at a flat rate or not a percentage of hourly pay, the work incentives that the universal credit taper mechanism is designed to provide will be compromised. Will the Minister tell us how the minimum level of earnings will be calculated? Will he ensure that people who are repaying overpayments will still be better off if they increase their income through working additional hours?

Subsection (3)(i) of new section 71ZCA of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 creates a criminal offence for non-compliance with the regulations, with a fine of £1,000, which would be a hefty sum for a small business. Small businesses have less time and energy to spend on administration or human resources, so the additional burdens being placed on them could prove a significant disincentive to their recruiting new employees who have overpayments hanging over them. That would result in those people finding it more difficult to get into work. Will the Minister tell us a little more about how he thinks that the new provisions will affect people who are paying back overpayments while trying to find a job? How he will ensure that the provisions do not create a new barrier to those people getting back into work?

The move towards allowing deductions from earnings to repay benefits lost due to error or fraud is sensible, particularly because universal credit will be paid to people in work as well as out of work. The Government are already introducing several penalties for those whom they feel have negligently made incorrect statements. It is important that we do not penalise people who have made mistakes but have done so honestly, by placing new and unnecessary barriers to employment in their way. The minimum level of earnings and the red tape that this will mean for small businesses could have that result if the Government get the judgments wrong. I hope that the Minister will be able to give us some reassurances about how the measures will work in practice.

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[Chris Grayling]

I start by saying that I very much appreciate the comments of the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green). I listened carefully to her points, a number of which she made in Committee. She has given a great deal of thought to these matters, and although I cannot offer her a guarantee that we will do all the things she wishes, I can say to her that we will take great care, in the regulations attached to the Bill, to ensure that we get the right balance. It has been clear for a long time in this country, and remains absolutely clear under the current Government, that in setting the levels of any deduction we have to be extremely careful not to tip people into hardship. In particular, we must not encourage them to leave work and end up moving them and their families down the poverty scale.

The hon. Lady and the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) asked how we would determine the level of earnings below which deductions for overpayments cannot be made. Of course, there is no one-size-fits-all approach, and the circumstances of different families are very different. There may be a case in which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) suggested, there is a deduction for child support, or the number of children in a family or a disability may be factors. Great care therefore has to be exercised.

The minimum level that we will pursue will be determined to ensure that the debtor is left with sufficient income to maintain themselves and their family, in line with similar provisions in the Attachment of Earnings Act 1971. We therefore plan to use the same basis that the previous Government used—for example, to determine deductions from benefit payments.

In many cases, however, a direct earnings attachment will be implemented with little negotiation with the debtor. There will be a prescribed minimum level that will not take account of individual circumstances. We will try to create a system whereby we are mindful of the need to reflect the circumstances of the individual, but we cannot go the whole way, and we certainly cannot go quite as far as the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston would wish.

If a debtor finds that they are unable to cope with the deductions being made from their earnings, they should contact us to discuss an alternative payment rate. Of course, they can avoid being placed in that situation, bearing in mind that we are discussing not people who are struggling to deal with something that they have already agreed but those who have wilfully refused to enter an agreement with us and are basically saying, “I’m not paying the money back”, or who have not even got to the point of saying anything to us at all.

Debtors who are repaying their overpayment by means of a direct earnings attachment will, in line with those repaying by other methods, be able to claim that the repayment rate causes them hardship and ask for it to be reduced. Although we of course have a responsibility to recover overpayments in order to protect public funds, we also take into account an individual’s financial and personal circumstances. The hon. Lady articulated a strong case for her points, but I cannot offer her quite as much as she would wish. However, I can offer her an assurance that we will always take an individual’s circumstances into account, particular where poverty, deprivation and hardship could arise.

The right hon. Member for East Ham made a point about employers. We will, of course, use the same mechanism for the attachment orders in the Bill as is used for child maintenance deductions. That process is well established through the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission system, and prior to that through the Child Support Agency, so it should not cause employers to recast their processes and do things very differently. On that basis, I am confident that it should not represent a significant additional burden on employers.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the provision for a £1,000 fine. In truth, there is no excuse for a refusal to engage in any part of the process. The orders will arise only because an individual claimant has refused to engage, and there is no real excuse for an employer to refuse to engage either. The matter should not be complicated, and it certainly should not be complex enough to cause an employer to decline an expansion in business or a recruitment to fill a vacancy. The process is established and many employers up and down the country are used to dealing with it, and I do not believe there will be significant extra burden on business.

The right hon. Gentleman asked how much employers could deduct for the administration charge, and the answer is an amount not in excess of £1 for each deduction. He asked for an assurance that the measure will not damage work incentives. The answer to that is that, as with all debt recovery, we must of course be mindful of the Department’s welfare obligations. As I said, recovery of overpaid benefits should not cause undue hardship. In the calculation of a repayment, we certainly would not want to push someone into a position in which they have to leave work to avoid payment under a DEA.

The operation of the DEA does not mean that the debtor will commence the repayment of their debt earlier than they would under another repayment method. The debtor will have had ample opportunity to make other arrangements to pay, or indeed to show that suspension of recovery was applicable in their case. We are not talking about people who have had no chance to engage and discuss.

[Stephen Timms]

Will people who receive pay rises always receive some benefit from it, or could they lose all of that increase in additional repayments required by the Department?

[Chris Grayling]

It is very difficult to give an absolute answer to that question. It is unlikely that we would seek to withdraw an entire pay rise, but clearly, if we had given somebody a lot of slack in making their repayments, and their financial circumstances improved, we would not allow them simply to continue paying at the hardship rate that they had previously paid. We would expect an improvement in the terms based on their improved circumstances.

The right hon. Gentleman, as a former Minister, knows the reality. Well-established hardship considerations are in place. If the customer engages with the Department, their circumstances could suggest that another method of recovery should be employed. Arrangements are made so that the DEA begins only after a period time, but only in exceptional circumstances would we waiver repayment.

Common sense lies at the heart of this measure. It is our job to recover funds that have been overpaid to a claimant when there is not a good reason for waiving the repayment because of departmental error. At the same time, it is not in any of our interests for the system to force people into severe hardship and poverty—the system should reflect the reality of people’s financial situations.

There is a clear obligation to repay. The Leader of the Opposition spoke this morning of responsibility, and he was right to do so. Those who we are talking about have a responsibility to repay the money that is due to us. However, the Department, and indeed the courts, must apply common sense to the process, achieve the right balance and ensure that we recover the money that is due to the taxpayer correctly and sensibly.

I welcome the Opposition spokesman’s positive comments. We are likely to have livelier debates as the hours go by, although I hope, having heard the Leader of the Opposition’s comments this morning, that such debate masks their willingness to support the Bill. It would be disappointing if the Opposition did not support the Bill. If they decline to support it, I will look forward to having a debate in public on who is right and who is wrong, but for now I am delighted that there is cross-party co-operation on this group of amendments and the new clause.

Question put and agreed to.

New clause 1 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

Clause 102

Recovery of benefit payments

Amendments made: 1, page 67, line 35, at end insert—

‘() by deduction from earnings (section 71ZCA);’

Amendment 2, page 68, line 17, at end insert—

71ZCA Deduction from earnings

(1) Regulations may provide for amounts recoverable under section 71ZB to be recovered by deductions from earnings.

(2) In this section “earnings” has such meaning as may be prescribed.

(3) Regulations under subsection (1) may include provision—

(a) requiring the person from whom an amount is recoverable (“the beneficiary”) to disclose details of their employer, and any change of employer, to the Secretary of State;

(b) requiring the employer, on being served with a notice by the Secretary of State, to make deductions from the earnings of the beneficiary and to pay corresponding amounts to the Secretary of State;

(c) as to the matters to be contained in such a notice and the period for which a notice is to have effect;

(d) as to how payment is to be made to the Secretary of State;

(e) as to a level of earnings below which earnings must not be reduced;

(f) allowing the employer, where the employer makes deductions, to deduct a prescribed sum from the beneficiary’s earnings in respect of the employer’s administrative costs;

(g) requiring the employer to keep records of deductions;

(h) requiring the employer to notify the Secretary of State if the beneficiary is not, or ceases to be, employed by the employer;

(i) creating a criminal offence for non-compliance with the regulations, punishable on summary conviction by a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale;

(j) with respect to the priority as between a requirement to deduct from earnings under this section and—

(i) any other such requirement;

(ii) an order under any other enactment relating to England and Wales which requires deduction from the beneficiary’s earnings;

(iii) any diligence against earnings.’

Amendment 3, page 69, line 22 , after ‘71ZC’ insert ‘, 71ZCA’

Amendment 4, page 70, line 13 , leave out from ‘etc)’ to end of line 15 and insert—

‘(a) for subsection (4) there is substituted—

(4) If the recipient of a notice under subsection (3) above agrees, in the specified manner, to pay the penalty—

(a) the amount of the penalty shall be recoverable from the recipient by the Secretary of State or authority; and

(b) no criminal proceedings shall be instituted against the recipient in respect of the conduct to which the notice relates.

(4A) Sections 71ZC, 71ZCA and 71ZD above apply in relation to amounts recoverable under subsection (4)(a) above as to amounts recoverable by the Secretary of State under section 71ZB above (and, where the notice is given by an authority administering housing benefit or council tax benefit, those sections so apply as if references to the Secretary of State were to that authority).’

(b) in subsection (9), the definition of “relevant benefit” is repealed.’—(Chris Grayling.)

Clause 112

Civil penalties for incorrect statements and failures to disclose information

Amendments made: 5, page 75, line 29, after ‘71ZC’ insert ‘, 71ZCA’

Amendment 6, page 75, line 31, at end insert—

‘(and, where the appropriate authority is not the Secretary of State, those sections so apply as if references to the Secretary of State were to that authority)’

Amendment 7, page 76, line 24, leave out ‘Secretary of State’ and insert ‘appropriate authority’

Amendment 8, page 76, line 26, leave out from ‘71ZC’ to end of line 27 and insert—

‘71ZCA and 71ZD apply in relation to amounts recoverable by the appropriate authority under subsection (4) as to amounts recoverable by the Secretary of State under section 71ZB (and, where the appropriate authority is not the Secretary of State, those sections so apply as if references to the Secretary of State were to that authority).’—(Chris Grayling.)

Schedule 14

Repeals

Amendments made: 9, page 155, line 37, at end insert—

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[Stephen Timms]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[Mr Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

New clause 3—School meals

‘(1) The amount in respect of other particular needs or circumstances, under section 12, shall include an amount in respect of school meals for any dependents of the claimant.

(2) The maximum award of the amount under this section shall be 100 per cent. of the cost that the claimant would expect to incur in respect of school meals, up to a prescribed maximum value per child.

(3) Regulations shall specify the circumstances under which a claimant shall be entitled to an amount under this section.

(4) Under no circumstances shall any amount payable under this section be included in the “relevant amount” specified in section 93(5) of this Act.’.

New clause 4—Health costs

‘(1) The amount in respect of other needs or circumstances, under section 12 of this Act, shall include an amount in respect of health costs.

(2) The maximum award of the amount under this section shall be 100 per cent. of the cost that the claimant would expect to incur in respect of prescribed health costs such as prescription, dental and optical charges, up to a prescribed maximum value.

(3) Regulations shall specify the circumstances under which a claimant shall be entitled to an amount under this section.

(4) Under no circumstances shall any amount payable under this section be included in the “relevant amount” specified in section 93(5) of this Act.’.

New clause 5—Universal credit printed statements

‘The Secretary of State will provide a record to the claimant detailing the amount and composition of the award, including amounts in respect of each of the elements specified in sections 9 to 12 of this Act and of any appropriate sub-elements as specified in regulations.’.

New clause 6—Payment of housing costs

‘(1) This Section applies to payments of the housing cost element of the universal credit.

(2) Payment of the housing costs element of the universal credit must be made to a person’s landlord where:

(a) that person has requested or consented to such payment;

(b) where sub-paragraph (a) does not apply and the person is in arrears pursuant to the terms of the tenancy agreement between that person and the landlord of an amount equivalent to two weeks or more of the amount he is liable to pay his landlord as rent if in either case the landlord requests or consents to payment to him.

(3) Regulations made by the Secretary of State may prescribe the circumstances in which subsection (2) does not apply.

(4) Regulations made by the Secretary of State shall prescribe the person who is to be treated as the landlord for the purposes of this section and shall make provision as to the discharge of liability consequent upon the making of any payments to the landlord.’.

Amendment 23, page 3, line 7, in clause 5, after ‘it’, insert

‘excluding any amount in an Individual Savings Account, up to a prescribed maximum of no less than £50,000, where the claimant is in work’.

Amendment 24, page 3, line 13, after ‘it’, insert—

‘excluding any amount in an Individual Savings Account, up to a prescribed maximum of no less than £50,000, where one of the claimants is in work’.

Amendment 30, in clause 10, page 4, line 36, at end insert—

‘subject to these amounts being not less than the additional support for disabled children provided through benefits and tax credits prior to the introduction of Universal Credit.’.

Amendment 27, in schedule 1, page 103, line 1, after ‘income,’, insert—

(ba) a person’s earned income from self-employment,’.

Amendment 28, page 103, line 3, at end insert—

‘(1A) Regulations under sub-paragraph (1)(ba) above may include provision for calculating profits and losses of a trade in accordance with generally accepted accounting practice, subject to any adjustments prescribed by regulations.’.

Amendment 29, page 103, line 20, at end insert—

‘(4A) Sub-paragraph (4) does not apply where a person has earned income from self-employment and the business from which the earned income in question is derived (or any larger undertaking of which the business in question forms part) is being carried on upon a commercial basis and with a view to the realisation of profits in the business or larger undertaking.’.

Amendment 68, page 103, line 20, at end insert

‘; and this will include an additional prescribed minimum level for claimants in receipt of the universal credit additional amount for caring responsibilities, and will be paid in addition to any other prescribed minimum level.’.

Amendment 33, in schedule 2, page 114, leave out lines 34 to 39.

Amendment 26, in schedule 6, page 123, line 10, at end insert—

‘(4) No less than six months before the appointed day the Secretary of State shall publish a report on the access to welfare advice, including advice for those unable to use the internet, that will be available at the appointed day, and shall satisfy himself on the basis of that report that provision is adequate to support migration to Universal Credit.’.

Government amendments 14 to 19.

Amendment 61, in clause 97, page 64, line 29, at end insert—

‘(3C) For the purposes of paragraph (3B), any element or sub-element of the universal credit award that is paid in respect of children, including childcare, shall be paid to the designated carer, except in prescribed circumstances. Regulations may provide further circumstances in which a proportion of universal credit may be payable to a particular individual.’.

Government amendments 20 and 21.

[Stephen Timms]

As this Bill returns to the Chamber on Report, it is astonishing how many policy gaps remain. This group of proposals addresses some of the worst holes in the policy on universal credit, and new clause 2 in particular deals with child care.

This is what has happened. Perhaps understandably, Ministers behaved naively, and with beginners’ enthusiasm they boasted that universal credit would solve all the problems in the benefit system: that it would always pay to be in work; that the system would be simpler; that thousands would be better off and nobody worse off; and that the benefits bill would be cut. In truth, one did not have to be Milton Friedman to work out that that did not all add up. That is now the Government’s problem: they cannot stand up their boasts. When it comes to the detail, they have been unable to deliver. Nowhere is that clearer than on child care support in universal credit.

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[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way on this extremely important issue. Is his solution the same as that of the groups he mentioned earlier—to put more money into child care?

[Stephen Timms]

No: our solution is the one in new clause 2, which we are debating. The priority should be to maintain the support currently being received by people working more than 16 hours a week. I understand why the Government say that they cannot simply find more money for supporting child care, but what will be disastrous is what appears to be the Government’s intention to give a lot more people support from the same cash-limited sum of money. If that proceeds, a very large number of people for whom work pays at the moment will find that work no longer pays.

[Harriett Baldwin]

Does the right hon. Gentleman welcome the proposals that would allow people to move into work of up to 16 hours—the mini jobs?

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[Stephen Timms]

If that would mean that people who are currently able to work for more than 16 hours had to give up their jobs altogether, I would not welcome it. That would be a seriously retrograde step. I accept that there is a case for supporting the cost of child care for people in mini jobs as well, but if the additional resources are not available to fund that, it would be a terrible mistake to press ahead and claw that money from people who depend on it to make work pay at the moment.

The Secretary of State set out at the seminar, at which I think the hon. Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) was present, some of the possible options. The Children’s Society has analysed some of the options and concluded that under one of them a family could pay out £1.56p for every additional pound earned. Ministers told us that that problem would be eliminated by universal credit, but it now appears that, if they proceed on the basis of that option, the new system will be a great deal worse than the current one, and will introduce a draconian new penalty for working parents. As I said to her, there is a good case for supporting child care for people in mini jobs, but it must not come at the expense of parents being helped at the moment.

The recent report from the Resolution Foundation and Gingerbread also underlined the point that spreading the same budget among a lot more people will mean families losing money for every additional hour they work. The Government are right to express the aspiration that it should always pay to be in work, but in this case, if they pursue the option set out in the seminar, something will be lost in translation, because families will have to pay out in order to work. The current system does a far better job; the new system that is envisaged will be a severely retrograde step, if it has the effect of taking more than £1.50 off people for each extra pound they earn. The Government appear poised, once they have finally worked out what their policy is in this area, to make work far less attractive than at the moment.

The Government have failed to come up with a policy, so our new clause 2 proposes one: it would retain the percentage of child care costs covered and the cash limits in the current system; it would ensure that work continues to pay for those for whom it pays at the moment; and it would allow the retention of the existing 16 hours’ threshold. The Government say that they cannot afford any extra spending on child care at the moment. My case to the House is that support for child care for those in mini jobs would need to wait until there is funding for it in order to ensure that jobs of 16 hours per week actually pay, as they do at the moment.

[Kate Green]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is disingenuous of the Government to make proposals to fund child care for mini jobs, given that the child care market is simply not designed in that way? Finding short episodes of child care for just a few hours a week is extremely difficult for parents, and could make child care provision even more financially unviable and drive providers out of the market?

[Stephen Timms]

My hon. Friend makes an important point and is absolutely right. People are worried about what the Government’s proposed changes will do to the child care market as a whole. It could make some providers uneconomical. If a large number of people currently using child care for more than 16 hours a week are forced, as a result of these changes, to give up their jobs and to withdraw from their child care places, it would put a huge dampener on, and cloud over, the whole child care market in the way she is right to fear. We feel strongly about this matter—the Government simply have not come up with a policy—so I will seek, if I can, to divide the House on new clause 2.

The Government’s failure to produce a policy on child care before the Bill leaves the House is a particularly abject failure. Ministers have not been able to turn their claims into policies. However, although child care might be the most spectacular and significant hole in the Government’s policy, it certainly is not the only one. In this group of amendments, therefore, we have tabled two further new clauses to fill the policy holes on passported benefits, such as free school meals and free prescriptions.

At the moment, people on out-of-work benefits are passported to those additional benefits, but the out-of-work benefits will be abolished, so who will be entitled to free school meals in future? Again, that is not an obscure, but a basic question and the Government have again failed to give us an answer.

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

My right hon. Friend is right to point out the importance of free school meals for many of our constituents whose children are sometimes in desperate need of the basic nutrition that they receive in schools. For the Government to have got to this stage in the Bill’s passage with no clarity about what triggers free school meals entitlement is confusing. Will they introduce a new means test? I am very glad that he has raised the matter.

[Stephen Timms]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is absolutely right about the centrality of free school meals entitlement in the system. The Government have simply failed to work out who, under their proposals, will be entitled to free school meals. It is not that I am disagreeing with the Government’s policy: the problem is that they have no policy. We have no idea whom they believe should be entitled to free school meals. As far as we can tell, they have not got a clue, either.

As my hon. Friend points out, free school meals are an important part of the system. They can be worth more than £350 a year to a family with one child in a primary school and easily more than £1,000 a year to a family with three or more children at school. Clearly, that makes an enormous difference.

Families currently receive free school meals until they work for more than 16 hours, at which point they receive working tax credit so that they are not worse off as they move into additional hours of work. The universal credit White Paper suggested that the Government intend to remove entitlement to free school meals at a fixed income threshold. That may partially answer my hon. Friend’s question. However, if they do that, it creates precisely the sort of cliff edge that we were told the Bill would eradicate. I presume that that difficulty has prevented the Government from setting out their policy and is the reason for the Bill’s silence on the matter and the absence of notes on the regulations to explain the Government’s policy.

If a lone parent with three children lost entitlement to free school meals at some level of earnings—say, £150 a week or more—their net household income would fall unless they earned more than £4,000 extra a year. If the new system works like that, it will be a disaster. It is exactly the sort of disincentive that we have been told all along that universal credit is supposed to remove. If the Government introduced such a policy, universal credit would make the problem of work disincentives far worse than it is in the current system.

Our proposal in new clause 3 is that the value of free school meals should be paid through universal credit and then tapered away gradually as household income rises. I recognise that there is concern among many who follow these matters closely that that could mean that the cash is not used for school meals but other expenses. Given the pressure on household budgets, one can well understand how that might happen. I therefore suggest that the solution is for the cash to be paid on to an electronic card, which could be used only to purchase school meals. An arbitrary cut-off in income, whereby all support for free school meals was withdrawn, would be damaging.

[Chris Grayling]

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that his proposal flies in face of the admirable position at the moment whereby, in the lunchtime school queue, there is no obvious and visible difference between those who receive free school meals and those who do not? A provision that would effectively give some, but not others, a particular card with money on it would surely stigmatise those kids who get free school meals.

[Stephen Timms]

No, the Minister is mistaken. All pupils in the school would pay for their meals with the card. The difference would be how the money got on to the card. Some would pay cash as currently happens and others would have the money placed on the card through universal credit. The Minister is right to raise the matter, which is important, but my solution would solve the problem.

[Chris Grayling]

rose—

[Stephen Timms]

I gladly give way to the Minister again. Perhaps he will tell us how the Government propose that entitlement to free school meals will be determined.

[Chris Grayling]

If the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will try to catch Mr Speaker’s eye in a moment to answer questions, but for now, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can answer one for me. As different schools today use different systems—some use fingerprinting, some use an electronic card system and some still use cash—does he envisage his proposal requiring schools up and down the country to scrap their current systems and have a new, harmonised system? If so, has he calculated what the cost of that system would be and how long it would take to introduce?

[Stephen Timms]

I very much hope that the Government are working out the answers to those questions. I would certainly aim to use existing systems, with the addition of payment via universal credit to simplify the transition.

[Harriett Baldwin]

On the important subject of free school meals, is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that the taper would begin immediately someone went into work, or would it come into play once the earnings disregard had moved out of the way, and if so, what would be the cost of his proposals?

[Stephen Timms]

The point is that it is a zero-cost proposal; I am simply suggesting that the funding would be provided through the mechanism that I have described. It would be tapered away, along with the rest of universal credit, and would sit naturally on top of existing payments, so that there would be just an additional payment in respect of school meals, where appropriate, which would then be tapered away once the disregard had been exhausted. The budgetary cost would be exactly the same.

We have exactly the same issue with free prescriptions. The current system provides them to people on benefits and to some people with low incomes through the HC2 form, but once again, we have heard nothing from the Government about what will happen under universal credit. Our new clause 4 addresses that.

By the way, it is perhaps worth making the point in passing that the number of pupils receiving free school meals is an important indicator for education policy as well. The pupil premium depends on the number of people receiving free school meals. The fact that we have no idea at all who will be entitled to free school meals under the Government’s proposals will create serious problems with that, too.

[Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD)]

Returning to the right hon. Gentleman’s proposals on prescription charges, is he not concerned about the evidence that we received at the beginning of the Public Bill Committee from a number of witnesses who said that there was a significant difference between school meals and prescription charges? School meals are an ongoing cost every day, whereas prescription charges tend to come in a batch. By tapering the amount of money that somebody received, they still would not be able to afford significant costs—potentially the cost of a number of prescriptions at the same time—because the amount of money concerned would be an ongoing amount, unlike under a system more similar to the current one, where all the prescriptions are paid for when they are needed.

[Stephen Timms]

I agree with the hon. Lady’s point, and to that extent the current system has a lot of attractions. The problem is that we will lose that system with universal credits. The question is: who will be entitled to free prescriptions? I do not imagine that she is arguing—as perhaps the Government will; I do not know—that there should be a cut-off point in income beyond which people suddenly lose all help for prescriptions. If that happens, we will create a serious and damaging cliff edge in the system, which everyone agrees is an undesirable feature. Our new clause 4 therefore proposes to address that problem, although there may be other problems as well. What I would dearly love to extract is a proposal from the Government, so that we can find out exactly what they intend to do, because so far they have been silent on that subject, as on all the others.

We have been told throughout these debates that the main point of the Bill is to ensure that people are always better off in work. Our task in Parliament is to scrutinise whether the Bill lives up to that laudable aim, but without knowing what the Government will do to provide help with child care, school meals or prescription costs, we simply cannot tell.

Frankly, it is an abuse of the parliamentary process not to tell this House what the Government’s policy is before the Bill leaves us. I do not accuse Ministers of withholding information from Parliament; the problem is that they have no more clue about their policy than we do. It is an astonishing and abject failure on their part. They made all these boasts at the beginning—their bragging ran away with them—but now they cannot deliver policies to substantiate those boasts.

[Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

Is it not a bit rich to put the case in that way when under the right hon. Gentleman’s Government, who were in power for many years, these aspects were not covered by a benefit? There was no child care benefit or a school meal benefit as such. They were dealt with outside the benefit system, no doubt in a way that he approves of, as I probably do as well, but why suddenly bring these elements into the benefit system?

[Stephen Timms]

The hon. Gentleman has a good deal more experience in these matters, if I may say so, than some of his Front-Bench colleagues who are dealing with them at the moment. Good provision, particularly for child care support, was of course made through the tax credit system. That strong support for the costs of child care is why there was such a dramatic rise in lone parent employment under the previous Government. I supported that and I suspect from what the hon. Gentleman just hinted at that he supported it and continues to support it today. The problem is that once tax credits are abolished and universal credit takes their place, we have no idea how child care is going to be supported in the future. That is why I am—rather modestly, I think—appealing for the Government to tell us.

[Kate Green]

Does my right hon. Friend also agree that one of the real concerns we face as a result of universal credit forcing us to look at lumping all the different strands of financial support for families into a single payment is that all the eggs are in one basket, so if one thing goes wrong, the whole benefit—the whole structure of financial support for that family—could collapse?

[Stephen Timms]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. For that very reason, the risks are great indeed. When I come on to speak to amendment 24 in a few moments, I will point out that if people go beyond a prescribed level of savings, they will lose all that help under all those headings.

[Chris Grayling]

Will the right hon. Gentleman clear up one point of confusion for me and, I suspect, for my hon. Friends? Over the past two or three months, he has said that he supports the universal credit in principle. However, his remarks and those of his hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) imply some distancing from the proposal. Does he intend to support the Bill on Third Reading or not?

[Stephen Timms]

The right hon. Gentleman will find out the answer to that question in due course. We have been consistent in supporting the principle of universal credit. We think that bringing in-work and out-of-work benefits together is a good idea that has a number of attractions. The problem is that the detailed work to make that policy fly has simply not been done by the Minister and his hon. Friends. There are desperate, gaping gaps in the policy and fundamental questions that he is unable to answer or explain about how the arrangements will work. As a result, the Bill, on departing this House, will leave many households, and many working families in particular, in a very precarious position.

Having talked about a lot of things that we do not know about, let me now deal with some things that we do know about. Clause 5, which I touched on a moment ago, will badly undermine the aspirations of people who are in work on modest incomes. Under the current rules—they have been a long-standing feature of the system—people who are out of work but who have above a prescribed capital sum are expected to use it to support themselves before claiming income-related, out-of-work benefits. If somebody has more than £6,000 in savings, the Government assume an income from them, which is then subtracted from the benefit entitlements; someone with more than £16,000 in savings will not receive means-tested, out-of-work benefits at all. Those two figures were increased from £3,000 and £8,000 by the last Government to help people retain some of their savings when they lost work. For people in work, the story has been very different. There is no savings cap at all on tax credits. Clause 5 will change that fundamentally by extending the rules on savings for those who are out of work to people who are in work.

The Conservative party used to tell us that it wanted to encourage people to save. Clause 5 will not just discourage people from saving; it will make it impossible for them to save. Anyone on a modest income who decides to save for a deposit to buy a house in the future, or for the cost of university education, will suffer an extraordinary punishment under the clause. It is impossible to buy a house today, or to obtain a mortgage for shared ownership, with a deposit of less than £16,000. However, if people have savings of £16,000 towards, say, the deposit for a mortgage—if, as Ministers seem to believe, they start to get ideas above their station—they will lose all their universal credit. Typically, that might be £5,000 a year. In addition, they will lose any support that they receive for the costs of child care, and on top of that they will lose any help that they are given with housing costs.

Those measures will add up to an extraordinary punishment for saving. They will make saving literally impossible, because as soon as people have managed to save £16,000 from their earnings, the Government will drain their savings away. The problem will start as soon as they have saved £6,000. The hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales)—who, I am pleased to see, is present—said in Committee that the problem would not last very long because people’s savings would soon be gone, and he was absolutely right. These proposals mean that if anyone attempts to start building up a saving that would be enough for, say, a deposit on a house or a contribution towards higher education costs, the Government will take it away by withdrawing their universal credit. The message being sent to people on low incomes who are doing the right thing and working to support themselves could not be clearer: “This Government will not support you.”

Amendments 23 and 24 would change that. They would allow people to save money in an individual savings account—up to £50,000 if they are in work. Ministers have told us that it would cost just £70 million a year to exclude all working households from the savings cap, and this measure is obviously more modest than that.

Surely we should be encouraging people to save, not punishing them for saving. People work to improve their lives and the lives of their families. They are aiming not for a bit more spending money each month, but for the means to buy a house, to help their children through university, to start a business or to pay for a child’s wedding. If they are to achieve such aspirations, people need to be able to save from their earnings, but clause 5 denies them the chance to do that.

[Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman has stressed the importance of aspiration. New clause 3, which concerns free school meals, is also relevant to that. Does he not find it interesting that, according to an examination of educational attainment among different ethnic groups, the most successful sub-group are Chinese students, and the second most successful are Chinese students receiving free school meals? The issue is not just money, but how Government can encourage aspiration and ambition, which is the ethos of the Bill.

[Stephen Timms]

Certainly the Bill should encourage aspiration, but if it prevents people from saving in the way that I have described, as clause 5 will, it will undermine aspiration. That is the point: we want to change the Bill so that it will allow people, even those on universal credit, to save. We believe that everyone should be encouraged to save, rather than being punished for having saved.

The Secretary of State used to agree with us. In 2008, he said that

“poverty is not just about how little you earn; it’s also about how little you own.”

If we want people to work their way out of poverty in the way in which the hon. Gentleman suggests—and I agree with him about that—we need to offer them the chance to save. I am afraid that if the Government press ahead with making saving on a low income impossible, the phrase “compassionate conservatism” will be revealed as a sham.

For similar reasons, I hope that Government Members will share my concern about the Bill’s discouragement to self-employment. Schedule 1 provides for a minimum income floor when calculating universal credit for self-employed people. Under that provision, Ministers are making the assumption that self-employed people will be earning at least the minimum wage for every hour they work, but anyone with even a passing knowledge of what is involved in starting up in self-employment will know that that is absurd. While establishing their business, many self-employed people work extraordinarily long hours and earn hardly anything at all, and their income fluctuates hugely month by month. It is absurd to assume that they will earn the minimum wage for every hour they work, and that they should therefore have their universal credit reduced accordingly. That is why the Chartered Institute of Taxation has warned that this new system will be much less supportive of self-employment than the current one.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

The question of the income levels of the self-employed is not as simple as the right hon. Gentleman makes out. Under the current capital allowance system, a self-employed individual can invest £25,000 in a piece of machinery and immediately wipe off their profits, and it causes deep resentment when they are then able to claim family tax credit. The Government are trying to create a system that supports the self-employed but is fair to other taxpayers.

[Stephen Timms]

The problem is that the proposed system does not support the self-employed in the way that the tax credit system supports them, because it treats the self-employed as if they are earning at least the minimum wage for every hour they put into their business. I know that the hon. Gentleman is genuinely interested in the position of the self-employed and I think he is supportive of self-employment, but he will know that it is absurd to suggest that a person who starts up in self-employment will be earning at least the minimum wage from day one. That will not be the case, of course; there may be weeks, or perhaps months, in which they earn nothing at all. The current tax rate system reflects that, but the new system will not.

[Guto Bebb]

Obviously I support the self-employed and want the universal credit system to support them, but we need to recognise that there are situations such as the following: somebody sets up in business to breed angora rabbits for their wool and manages to make £80 in sales in the year. I have not made that up, and it is absurd that that type of business should be supported by the taxpayer.

[Stephen Timms]

I am sorry to hear the hon. Gentleman belittling self-employment. For many people, including people who have lost their jobs, a move into self-employment can be absolutely the right thing to do, and, over time, they might find that they are able to develop a serious business—not breed rabbits—and earn a living from it. We should be valuing, not ridiculing, such contributions to the economy. I am afraid that there are many problems with the Bill, and one of them is that it so badly weakens and undermines the support that is currently available for self-employment.

[Kate Green]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the attractions of supporting self-employment is that it often particularly helps those who find it difficult to access the traditional labour market, such as women, because they need to combine work with caring responsibilities and therefore need more flexible hours, and disabled people, who may not be able to access full-time work in a structured workplace but can do some work on their own at home? We also certainly know that there is a long-standing tradition of some of our ethnic minority communities finding that self-employment is the best way for them to sustain economic independence.

[Stephen Timms]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that self-employment is a crucial element of our economy for many people, including those with caring responsibilities; others who, for other reasons, are not necessarily able to commit to a full-time job; and, indeed, those who simply want the opportunity to build up a business for themselves—it is crucial that the system supports them. Tax credits have done so, but I am afraid that universal credit will not. That is a real worry and the approach being taken flies in the face of Government statements of support for self-employment.

[Guto Bebb]

rose—

[Stephen Timms]

I will gladly give way, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will support self-employment this time.

[Guto Bebb]

I am surprised to hear those comments. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is talking about supporting businesses and self-employed people perhaps working a day a week or two days a week. How does that fit in with his proposals on supporting child care in respect of micro-jobs and part-time jobs?

[Stephen Timms]

I have made it clear that the priority should be to maintain child care support for those who are currently receiving it. There is a case, with which perhaps the hon. Gentleman agrees, for extending that support to others. If that is to be done—and I can well see the case for it—the funding needs to be provided for it. What we cannot do is take support away from one group, making work impossible for them, in order to support another group. If we only knew the Government’s policy on child care support, we could have a proper debate about it, but that appears to be where they are heading. They simply have not had the ability to put a policy together and tell us what it is. The hon. Gentleman has suggested that perhaps too many self-employed people are either earning a negligible amount or are under-declaring their profits.

[Guto Bebb]

It is important to correct the record. I did not state that self-employed people were under-declaring their profits; I simply stated that the capital allowance system allows the self-employed, completely legally, to reduce their profits to nothing by purchasing an asset. That was the simple point that I was making.

[Stephen Timms]

That is a long-standing feature of the tax system for businesses generally, and we should be encouraging investment. I see it as a strength of the current system that such necessary investment is supported. The hon. Gentleman is right in the sense that universal credit will remove all that completely. I am afraid that, as the Chartered Institute of Taxation has pointed out, it will be a far less supportive system for self-employment than the current one.

[Guto Bebb]

Again, I need to clarify the record. It is important to understand that the capital allowance system has been changed fundamentally in the past two years as a response to the economic crisis that we are facing. Someone could not previously claim 100% allowances, but they can at this point in time. A 100% allowance on the purchase of an asset worth £25,000 results in the net profits of a small business reducing to nothing and therefore they are supported by the tax credits system. It is important that this Government support the self-employed, but not in a way that encourages them to make investment decisions for the purpose of universal credit rather than for the purpose and benefit of their own business.

[Stephen Timms]

I am not clear whether the hon. Gentleman supports the fact that we have had 100% capital allowances recently, although I hope he does. When the downturn hit, they were introduced for a very good reason, which was to encourage enterprise and investment, particularly on the part of small businesses.

One of the problems with the Bill is that in many cases self-employed people will be strongly pressured to lie about the hours they have worked. They are not going to admit to having worked 18 hours a day, as some are doing, because they will then lose pound for pound from their universal credit, as it will be assumed that for every one of those 18 hours they have earned at least the minimum wage. This is a bad policy and it needs to be changed.

Amendment 33 may cause some puzzlement. Many people will not know that the Government intend to remove pension credit from people over pensionable age who have a spouse under pensionable age. That has not been announced anywhere and the Pensions Minister has not stood up to tell us about it. We find it buried in, of all places, the middle of schedule 2, on page 114 of this Bill. If the older person were living alone, they would receive pension credit. Those people will in future be penalised because they have a younger spouse. This is a new couples penalty, but we have been assured that the Conservative party wanted to stamp out such penalties. Indeed, the Secretary of State said, once again, in DWP questions earlier that he wanted to remove couples penalties from the system—but here he is inventing a new one. That will change the pension entitlements for some couples with very little notice and, in some cases, by a substantial sum. If Ministers want to change the arrangements for pension credit, they should set that out openly, the provisions should be made in the Pensions Bill and there should be full discussion of the change. They should certainly not try to sneak it past us in the second schedule to this Bill.

We have now established that of the 610,000 recipients of pension credit with a partner, almost 100,000 have a partner aged under 60. The difference between the couple rate for jobseeker’s allowance and the pension credit rate is more than £100 a week, so for each year that a couple is in receipt of JSA rather than pension credit, those couples stand to lose more than £5,000.

[Chris Grayling]

The right hon. Gentleman will remember that we debated this matter extensively in Committee, so it is not quite the bolt from the blue that he suggests. Is it his party’s policy that people under retirement age who happen to have a partner who is over retirement age should, through that partner, be able to access means-tested support from the state without any obligation to look for work themselves?

[Stephen Timms]

In government, we set out the arrangements for pension credit as they stand. In our view, those arrangements made sense. If the Government want to make a case for changing those arrangements, I simply suggest that they need to announce that change and to stand up openly and say that they have decided that in future people cannot have pension credit if their spouse is under pensionable age. We could then have a debate. I would have thought that such a measure ought to be in the Pensions Bill. The Minister is right that we were able to spot the change in Committee and to discuss it then, but this is certainly not an example of the Government’s being open—far from it. They seem to have hoped that they could slip this measure through and nobody would notice.

For those couples for whom there is a substantial age gap—in 40% of those cases, the partner will be younger than 55, so the gap will be more than five years—this measure could represent an enormous cumulative loss of £5,000 a year for five years or more.

[Chris Grayling]

May I take the right hon. Gentleman back to the key question? We are talking about people of working age whose households would be in receipt of means-tested benefits from the state without being obliged to look for work. Is it his policy that those people should not have an obligation to look for work and that their households should be able to continue to receive means-tested benefits from the state?

[Stephen Timms]

As far as I can see, the arrangements for pension credit have worked perfectly well up to now, presumably with the feature that the Minister is now deprecating. My case is that if the Government want to change the rules for pension credit to discriminate against people who have a spouse under pensionable age, they should do so openly. They should announce the change: it should have been in the Budget, the welfare reform announcement or the Pensions Bill. We have a Pensions Bill going through Parliament at the moment—why was it not included there? Instead, the change was slipped into a schedule to this Bill and no Minister, until asked, said anything about it.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

I am a little unclear about whether the right hon. Gentleman’s position is that this measure is wrong in principle and he disagrees with it, or he agrees with it but thinks it should have been announced with a fanfare. Will he explain which it is?

[Stephen Timms]

I certainly think that the arrangement should have been announced, and our amendment proposes that it be removed. I shall be interested to hear the Government’s response.

[Charlie Elphicke]

Let me understand fully what the right hon. Gentleman is saying. If a retired man, say, of 66 is married to a spouse who is 45, she should be able not to have to work and they should be able to double-claim pension credit—is that correct?

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Timms]

No, it is not. Any income to the household from a working spouse will be counted in the household income for pension credit purposes. My argument is that if there is a case to be made for a change to pension credit, it should be made openly, and it should have been in the Pensions Bill, which Parliament is currently considering.

[Chris Grayling]

Forgive me for probing. The right hon. Gentleman has rightly set out his case as an amendment, but I wish to press him on the following point. If a household is receiving elements of pension credit that gives them the wherewithal to survive, is he saying that a 45-year-old should have no obligation to work while the household receives means-tested benefits from the state? It would be helpful to understand that. If that is his party’s policy, will he say so clearly and unequivocally?

[Stephen Timms]

I do not recognise the policy that the Minister describes. We have had a long-standing arrangement for pension credit which appears to work perfectly well. If he has found abuses of pension credit, I shall be eager to hear those examples from him when he responds to the debate. I notice that when asked recently about this by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), the Pensions Minister stated:

“We recognise that it is important not to undermine the stability and outcomes for existing pension credit customers, so there will be no change for couples already in receipt of pension credit at the point of change.—[Official Report, 9 June 2011; Vol. 529, c. 422W.]

That is welcome and helpful. I do not know whether the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) has satisfied himself that the abuse that he has just described is not a problem at present. But even that reassurance from the Pensions Minister is not on the face of the Bill. For many couples who have planned around receiving pension credit and been reasonably able to do so, and who are now approaching retirement, the change will come as a severe shock.

We will support the principle of universal credit, despite the holes in the policy about how it will work and despite the perverse incentives that the Government have added for savers and the self-employed, but this is not, as Ministers have frequently claimed, a panacea for all the problems in the system. It is therefore vital that sufficient welfare advice is available at the point of transition. People will find any transition difficult, even one which, unlike this, is to a simple system. Yet at precisely the moment when the Government are embarking on this massive upheaval to the system, funding for welfare advice is being cut.

A large part of the funding—for example, to Citizens Advice—comes at present through legal aid, and the Government have announced that there will be no legal aid funding for welfare advice at all in future. About a quarter of the current funding for Citizens Advice comes from that source and it is being taken away. Most of the rest of the funding comes from local authorities, and that is also being cut. Demand for welfare advice will rocket and funding will plummet. This is a perfect storm for advice services. Our amendment 26, therefore, requires the Secretary of State to report, before universal credit is introduced, on the availability of welfare advice, and to satisfy himself that it is adequate to support people through the transition that the Government envisage.

New clause 5 aims for clarity about how claimants will be informed about their universal credit. It stipulates that every claimant should be provided with a record of the amount of their award, including details of the separate elements that make it up. I understand that the Government intend to provide each claimant with the equivalent of a payslip. I hope the Minister will be able to confirm that when responding to the debate. Will that payslip be provided on payment, as with payslips for those in work? Will it be provided directly by the Department or through the employer, and will it set out the various elements of the award—child care, housing support, support in respect of children and so on? A full statement would ensure transparency between the Government and claimants and would be a welcome feature.

Amendment 30 addresses support for families with disabled children under universal credit. It amends clause 10 to ensure that the amount that those families receive is not less than under the current tax credit and benefits system. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran) raised this important point in Work and Pensions questions earlier this afternoon. Under universal credit, a family receiving the higher rate care element of DLA for a disabled child will receive £74.50 through the severe disability addition. At first glance, that seems broadly in line with the current position, but there are worries, because we are told that the higher level of the disability addition will be uprated in future only as resources allow, so it is very likely that families with severely disabled children will lose out over time.

For families with disabled children not receiving the higher rate care element of DLA the situation looks a great deal worse. The amount available under the universal credit disability addition will be £26.75 a week, compared with the £53.62 available under child tax credit, so support will be halved. The Minister has justified that in terms of aligning the support given to children and adults and easing the transition, but we know that children helped under the disability addition will not automatically be helped under adult universal credit.

Amendment 61 proposes that the elements of universal credit paid in respect of children must be paid to the designated carer of the children, except in prescribed circumstances. That is crucial for safeguarding the interests of children. Let me simply quote from the briefing that Oxfam has sent every Member: “We know from our work on the ground that money in households is often unevenly distributed and that women in poor households can have little or no access to money. As mothers usually take the main responsibility for feeding and clothing children, this affects both women and their children. This sometimes means that women themselves go without eating in order to pay the bills or put a meal on the table for their children. This lack of access to income in their own right leaves women open to the risk of financial abuse and can also reduce their chances of escaping domestic violence. As a crucial first step, the Bill must be amended to allow payments intended for children to be labelled as such and paid to the main carer, who is usually female. This change will make it more likely that this money is spent on children.” That would be the effect of the amendment.

Amendment 68 would provide for a minimum amount to be paid to any claimant who has caring responsibilities. It is vital that people who give up their time and energy to look after the most vulnerable in society, saving the taxpayer considerable sums in the process, are properly supported when they move on to universal credit, in line with the help currently available through carers allowance. I hope that the Minister will make it clear how he will ensure that that happens.

In rehearsing these concerns, I remind the House that the whole project of universal credit will depend on an enormous new IT system, which the Government claim will be ready in an implausibly short period of time. In truth, it will not be ready by October 2013, as claimed, which will give rise to serious problems as that deadline approaches.

[Charlie Elphicke]

I put it to the right hon. Gentleman, as I did in Committee when he made that point, that this Government’s approach to IT is far more thought through and better planned than the approach taken by the previous Government, who spent vast amounts of money without any consideration for the end, route or purpose of the policy. This Government are being far more direct and should get the IT ready on time and on budget.

[Stephen Timms]

I look forward to reminding the hon. Gentleman of that comment in September 2013.

The intention of universal credit is that work should always pay. Without decisions and policies on child care or passported benefits, we cannot know whether work will always pay, and all the indications are that the Government will in due course, when they finally put a policy together, introduce one that will mean that for many work will no longer pay.

On savings, I am afraid that the Government are heading to crush the hopes of many people in work. On the self-employed, the Government will crush the hopes of many who want to set up their own businesses. As Policy Exchange recently argued in its report, universal credit has been oversold by Ministers. I very much hope that the House will support our amendments so that universal credit can support the aspirations of families across the country.

[Chris Grayling]

I should like to start by making the same point that I made in Committee. I have listened to the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) setting out a vast range of measures and details that he wants us to write into the Bill. He is conveniently forgetting the first fundamental element of a Bill, and the lesson that he taught me 10 years ago, when I was first elected to the House, about the nature of primary legislation. I remember, as a new Member of Parliament, debating an education Bill in Committee and asking why there was not more detail in the Bill. I proposed amendments to provide certain details. I remember the right hon. Gentleman, as a Minister, arguing why that should not happen. He explained that it was a piece of enabling legislation to create a framework for the changes that his Government were seeking to put in place, and that my amendments were all unnecessary. Today the roles are reversed, and the right hon. Gentleman has conveniently forgotten everything that he, as a Minister, taught me all those years ago. Instead, he is telling me that I should put all kinds of new details into the Bill that I have introduced. I am sure that hon. Members will therefore forgive me if I take some of his proposals with a pinch of salt.

[Stephen Timms]

Is the Minister seriously saying that how the cost of child care will be supported is a detail?

[Chris Grayling]

I am saying to him precisely what he said to me all those years ago—that many of the details will be dealt with in secondary legislation. The Bill contains a framework that will include, among other things, provision for a child care element in universal credit. That is fundamental, and we all agree that there should be such an element, just as there should be elements relating to disability and to other aspects of the current benefits system that need to be replicated in universal credit.

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[Chris Grayling]

I cannot remember the previous Government doing more than we have to engage people in Westminster, people around Parliament, third sector groups and members of the public. We are making a genuine attempt in a number of complex areas to get things right and to involve everyone in the decision-making process, and that will continue. Notwithstanding this afternoon’s amendments, we will continue to be delighted to seek and involve the input of Opposition parties, including the Labour party and the nationalist parties. As the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) said, it is right and proper that we have full dialogue with the Administrations in Cardiff, Belfast and Edinburgh, and with the Members of Parliament who represent Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland.

[Stephen Timms]

It is certainly the case that the previous Government never got to this stage in a Bill’s passage with such an enormous hole in the policy as there is in this Bill.

[Chris Grayling]

The technical response to that is, “You wish!” I remember many occasions on which we came to a debate and asked what the Labour Government were planning to do. Did we ever get an answer? Not at all. The right hon. Gentleman and I have different memories of the way things were.

It is important to remember that this Bill creates a structure for universal credit, and that the details will be set out in regulations. The Opposition amendments relate mainly to issues that will be dealt with in regulations, and which do not affect the structure of universal credit as set out in the Bill.

I have accepted certain recommendations from the Opposition. The Bill as introduced provided that the regulations will be subject to the negative procedure. In Committee it was suggested that that would not provide the right level of parliamentary scrutiny and control. The right hon. Member for East Ham identified a number of provisions that he thought should be subject to the affirmative procedure, and I gave a commitment in Committee on 28 April to consider those provisions carefully.

There are two provisions, in clauses 22 and 25, relating to conditionality, for which we do not think the affirmative procedure is appropriate, because they do not introduce new principles. Although we intend that regulations will be much less prescriptive than the current jobseeker’s allowance regulations, the powers in the Bill will be used to create a regime for jobseekers that is broadly similar to the current one. We have therefore formed the view that there is no necessity to subject those two to the affirmative resolution procedure. Of course, it always remains within the gift of Opposition Members to pray against regulations if they want a matter to be debated. They could, of course, do so anyway, but we are making their life a bit easier by providing for the affirmative procedure.

I have thought long and hard, and apart from those two specific provisions I agree with the right hon. Gentleman’s suggestion that regulations should be made under the affirmative procedure in the first instance. I say “in the first instance” because it does not seem sensible to repeat the process year in, year out when the regulations are regularly renewed.

As set out in amendment 14, that principle covers all the key regulation-making powers relating to the universal credit, including the rules on capital, the calculation of income, the treatment of self-employed people’s cases, and the amounts of the elements within an award, including those for disabled children, housing and child care. Opposition Members might say that that is not enough to allay the concerns that they have raised on specific issues, and I shall deal with some of those specific concerns in a moment. However, I made it clear in Committee that we recognised the importance of getting the details of universal credit right. We are working hard to do so in consultation with key stakeholders, and we are listening to their concerns.

The Opposition amendments would pre-empt our considerations and tie the hands of this and any future Government with regard to areas of policy in which it is important to retain flexibility. I believe that it is perfectly reasonable to say that as we reach a final conclusion on what is right, involving Members of all parties, the Work and Pensions Committee, organisations such as the Social Security Advisory Committee, and third-party groups, we will bring regulations to the House by the affirmative procedure. There can then be a full and proper debate in Committee and a vote on Floor of the House.

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[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes his point in his usual forceful and inimitable way. He highlighted how Labour Members struggle to move on from traditional ways of things. Listening to the right hon. Member for East Ham, I am still not sure on which side of the argument he falls. Does he think that we are doing the right thing, but want to fine-tune it a bit, or is he trying to distance himself from the Bill, so that on Wednesday the Opposition can vote against it and so say to the pressure and lobby groups, “We are on your side”? I am genuinely not sure which is the case, although if they do vote against it, I will love it. I will look forward to arguing up and down the land that this Government have got it right on welfare reform, and that the Opposition have not. I wait with interest and enthusiasm to discover how they vote.

New clauses 3 and 4 provide an amount for school meals and health costs in universal credit. It is absolutely our objective to ensure that people on universal credit will continue to receive appropriate support for school meals and health costs, and that this support is withdrawn gradually to avoid damaging the incentives to work. However, entitlements to passported benefits are the responsibility of other Departments and devolved Administrations. We have been working closely with those responsible to consider the options, and we have commissioned the Social Security Advisory Committee to review passported benefits and how they interact with universal credit. The review was announced in a written statement on 23 May, and a copy of its terms of reference has been placed in the Library. To answer a question put to me earlier, I should say that the Committee will produce its interim report in September and a final report by January. The Committee provides a good way of considering this challenging and important cross-governmental issue. We are certainly well aware of the potential for a large cliff-edge reduction in a person’s income, if support for school meals is withdrawn completely when they reach a certain level of earnings, and we are working closely with other Departments on the matter, as well as on the review.

On health, we aim to ensure that passported benefits are awarded to broadly the same number of people as now. However, passporting is not the only source of help with health costs. Income-related help is also available through the NHS low-income scheme, which can be claimed by anyone on a low income who has capital of less than £16,000. For people on medication, pre-payment options can also significantly reduce the cost of recurring prescription charges. With a 12-month pre-payment certificate, the maximum cost of a prescription is £2 a week, although of course that is an issue only for England; for those with constituencies in Scotland, there are no prescription charges.

[Stephen Timms]

The Minister made an important point a moment ago. He said that he agreed that support for free school meals and prescriptions should be tapered away. That is different from the proposal in the White Paper to have an income threshold and no support. Is that a change in Government thinking?

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[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, underlining the complexity of these issues and why I believe it inappropriate to set hard-and-fast rules in primary legislation. If we find that we have not got it right the first time around, or if things need to be done to remove anomalies, which they might well be, it makes no sense to have written the fine print into the detail of primary legislation, therefore making it more difficult to adjust accordingly. This is one reason why it is important to maintain as much flexibility as possible.

[Stephen Timms]

The hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) referred to rumour, but the White Paper said that self-employed people would be deemed to have earned at least the minimum wage for each hour of employment. Can we take it from what the Minister is saying that the Government are reconsidering that White Paper decision?

[Chris Grayling]

As I said to the right hon. Gentleman in Committee, we are looking at the best way of doing this. We cannot have a situation in which people who are receiving an entitlement to the universal credit while generating no income at all over long periods of time still say that they are self-employed. We must ensure that that does not happen, and we are looking for the best way of doing it. If we wrote the rules into primary legislation, we would not be able to take decisions and fine-tune on the basis of experience, as we would have to come back to primary legislation every time. That is why I think it inappropriate to accept the right hon. Gentleman’s amendments.

Let me make some further progress. Amendment 33 seeks to remove the restriction on eligibility for pension credit for couples where one member is below and the other is above the pension credit qualifying age. Suffice it to say that although someone over the retirement age should be able to receive benefits for the household under the pension credit system, someone under the retirement age being able to receive the benefits of a means-tested system without having to go out and look for a job is just plain wrong. I am afraid we disagree on that, and I am comfortable with the changes. They are set out in legislation, which is where one would expect them to be set out. I am disappointed at the right hon. Gentleman’s disappointment that we have not issued a press release on the subject, but I do not think that this is the kind of change that would command the front pages of any newspaper. It seems perfectly reasonable to set out proposed changes in legislation, given that it is legislation that is laid before the House with accompanying explanatory notes that Members can read and discuss and into which they have an input.

Amendment 68 would add additional provisions for carers to paragraph 4(4) of schedule 1. It is not necessary to set a minimum level of payments to carers. The risk is that the incentives for carers to get into work are blurred by the automatic payment of an amount that does not relate to their personal circumstances. We all agree that work, not benefits, is the best route out of poverty, and we must ensure that payment levels are not set so high as to undermine that.

Amendment 61 takes us back to an issue that was extensively debated in Committee in respect of the payment of universal credit. Opposition Members suggest that that default position should be that payments made in respect of children are routinely directed to the carer. The amendment would provide powers to specify other circumstances for paying a portion of the universal credit award to a particular individual.

We have published a policy briefing note setting out our intentions for payments. We have already said that couples will be able to choose which of them receives the award and they could direct it to a joint account for both to access. It is a core principle of our approach that individuals are best placed to make choices about what is best for their own circumstances. There will, of course, be some exceptional circumstances and there are powers within the Bill to amend the Social Security Administration Act 1992 to allow the Secretary of State to pay all or part of an award to another individual. We do not need this amendment to ensure that. However, the default position should be that we make payment to the person chosen by the couple, not by anyone else.

Many of the concerns raised in this debate are, of course, about the possibility that universal credit might be less generous to some people than the current system of benefits and tax credits. We propose a radical reform and a simplification of the welfare system. In that situation, it is not possible to replicate exactly every aspect of the current system. That is why we will introduce a system of transitional protection to ensure that there are no cash losers as a result of the move to universal credit.

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I suspect strongly that encouraging the 5 million people who could work but do not, and making work pay for them, will solve the problem of people being sucked into the UK from overseas. The problem might well solve itself, however, through a demand for employment from our countrymen. When that day comes, and if universal credit achieves it, it will be a great day for this country. It is fundamentally wrong that we should sell the pass on the hopes and aspirations of millions of people in this country who could be working, achieving and fulfilling their potential, but who for too many years have been thrown on the slagheap of hopelessness, dependency and failure. I am a Tory because I like people to succeed; I like people to do well; I want people to make money; I want them to be rich; I want them to be captains of industry; and I want the economy to grow even quicker, and I think that universal credit is the way to help more people to achieve and succeed in their hopes and aspirations, to get into work and to do really well.

[Stephen Timms]

We have had an interesting debate, and I welcome the Minister’s concession on the affirmative procedure for the initial version of some of the key regulations that will be introduced under the Bill. I would have liked him to go further, but I welcome the extent to which he has changed the Government’s position and welcome the amendments he has tabled to effect that change.

Unfortunately, the Minister gave us nothing else that I can welcome. It is an extraordinary failure on the part of Ministers that we do not yet have Government proposals on child care, free school meals or concessions on prescriptions. The Minister said that it did not matter, because there were still two and a half years to go before universal credit was introduced, but actually it is only two and a quarter years now—it was two and a half years three months ago, but they failed to come up with their policy proposals and three months have passed. It is not simply an academic issue, because even if all the policies had been clear two and a half years in advance, it would have been a stretch to get the IT in place by October 2013. As it is, the Government have not decided on those key parts of the policy, and I suggest that there is now no chance that it will be ready. However, that is a discussion for another day.

The hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) accused the children’s charities of throwing rocks at the Government. It is out of order to make that criticism of Barnardo’s, Citizens Advice and the Children’s Society. Let me quote their letter:

“We welcome the removal of the hours rule”—

they welcome the provision that the hon. Gentleman supports—

“but the evidence shows it is not possible to do this. . . within the current budget without a significant negative impact on work incentives for those working longer hours.”

That is not throwing rocks but simply setting out obvious home truths, of which the Government need to take account.

[Charlie Elphicke]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Stephen Timms]

No, I will not. Our position is that the Government need to listen to what people are saying to them and that new clause 2 provides protection. We do not want the work incentives worsened in the way in which charities point out.

It sounds as though the Government have abandoned the idea of a payslip for every universal credit instalment. I am disappointed—that was a good idea. Sadly, the Minister reaffirmed the Bill’s extraordinary penalties on saving. He gave no firm assurances on self-employment income, even though the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) recognised the importance of that. The Minister appeared to acknowledge that there was a problem, which, I suppose is progress from his previous position.

The Minister gave us no assurances on adequate welfare advice. My hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) made a telling case about that. Many will be dismayed by his dismissal of the case for retaining support for disabled children. There is genuine worry about the impact of his refusal to ensure that benefit for children is paid to their main carer.

I wish to divide the House on new clause 2 on child care, on amendment 23 on the saving cap and amendment 27 on support for self-employed people in universal credit.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.