Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Second sitting)

Juliet Campbell Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Tom Gordon]

That was a really comprehensive answer. I think the key point that you touched on is the multidisciplinary approach.

[Juliet Campbell (Broxtowe) (Lab)]

Q Thank you both very much for being here today. Throughout this whole discussion, for many months, there has been a lot of talk about palliative care and pain management, which can lead patients to come to a decision or to consider assisted dying as an option. If a doctor has suggested to a patient that assisted dying is an option, or a patient has said that they are considering assisted dying, do you think that they should be referred to another clinician? Or do you think that there should be an independent organisation—a non-clinical setting—where a patient can go to have further discussions before taking the assisted dying route?

Professor Ranger: I think there is something really important about having a big difference in the beginning with regard to palliative care and assisted dying, and pain management. It is essential that those two things are slightly separated, because it would be heartbreaking to think that pain management was the primary reason that someone wanted to be assisted to die. We should be able to control and support someone’s symptoms and pain.

I think the primary thing with regard to being referred to another organisation is autonomy. I absolutely agree with what was said earlier: you would want anyone who is considering assisted dying to be slightly separated out of their normal clinical pathway, so it is not part of mainstream care for someone in a hospital or an organisation. There is something really important about separating that out, both in the discussions around the decision making and in any care involved in assisting them to die. I think those two things do need to be separated.

[Juliet Campbell]

Q So rather than going straight to “I have made this request, or this has been suggested to me, and this is the path we are going down,” there is something that should happen in between.

Professor Ranger: Well, you would not really want any clinician to push this view on any patient. It has to come from the person themselves. That is the key thing around capacity and autonomy. I do not think that people should ever say to a patient or an individual, “Is this something you have considered?” It has to be led by the patient.

[Dr Marie Tidball (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

Q Professor Ranger, may I pick up on the points that Glyn Berry made about the different circumstances in which patients find themselves? The barriers to healthcare as a result of health inequalities, access to education and disability are well documented. How could your members help to remove the barriers for such groups in access to the provision of assisted dying?

Professor Ranger: It is vital that any of those barriers be removed and that we always maintain outstanding care at the end of someone’s life. The reality is that the majority of palliative care is given by nursing staff, whether it is in the community, in someone’s home, in a hospice or in a hospital. It is key that it be an expertise and a specialist practice in which someone has extra training and extra education. The skills of listening to patients, advocating for them and ensuring that they are pain-free at the end of their life—these are skills that nurses have now, and it is vital that our nursing members maintain them. They are often the one a patient will speak to at 3 in the morning when no one is there.

As Glyn said, it is vital that the wider team be included in the Bill. The Bill talks about the guidance and recommendations being for the chief medical officer, but I think it is absolutely vital that the chief nursing officer be a key part of the guidance and the drawing up of any care, because even in these circumstances it is nursing staff who will give the majority of the care.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Third sitting)

Juliet Campbell Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Juliet Campbell (Broxtowe) (Lab)]

Q I have a question for James Sanderson and one for Dr Clarke. They are quite similar, but I will refer to things you have said. James, you said:

“Sadly, only half the people who need palliative care receive it.”

In your opinion, who are the people who receive palliative, and who does do not?

My question to Dr Clarke is similar. You have talked about the population being

“carved up into two groups…those who deserve to live and those are expendable”.

Could you expand on that quote and the two groups you referred to, as well as the impact that has on their treatment and care?

James Sanderson: You draw a really important point about not just the provision and totality of palliative care across the country but the inequity of access. Unfortunately, we find that the diversity of people who are accessing care in hospices across the country is less than those who are dying in hospital—43% of people currently die in hospital.

One of the things we really need to do is move to a new ecosystem of palliative care that looks at supporting people in different settings. We need specialist provision in hospices to support people with significant needs, but increasingly hospices are reaching out beyond their walls into the community, and 80% of Sue Ryder’s work is in people’s own homes. People tell us that they want to die at home, so supporting people in their own homes enables us to access more diverse communities and get to people in their own setting.

Increasingly, one of the things we feel is necessary is the provision of support inside hospital. Alongside wards, we would bring support to that 43% of people who are currently dying in hospital, to ensure there is equality of access in all places, both in in-patient settings and in the community. You draw a really important point that we have to look at the totality of provision and ensure that, when someone is offered palliative care—the Bill talks about that provision being available—there is universal access, in terms of the type of palliative care available and the access for everybody in society.

Dr Clarke: My comment refers to the fact that there is an immense gulf between the theory of the NHS being a cradle-to-grave service—or a service that cares for us at the end of life as it does at the start—and the reality. The reality that I see every day at work in my hospital is patients coming into the emergency department from the community sometimes in utter, abject misery, in agony, with a lack of dignity. They have been forgotten completely. They are not getting healthcare or social care, and no one cares about them.

Even in the hospital, patients who have a terminal diagnosis are sometimes cast out into the corners of the hospital. There are hospitals, and mine is one currently, where we do not even have a 24/7 palliative care service face to face. Every night in my hospital, and every weekend from Friday to Monday, you cannot see a palliative care nurse or doctor, despite the fact that for a number of years that has been an NHS standard. That is an absolute disgrace and it shows how little people who are dying are truly cared for in a civilised society.

It does not necessarily have anything to do with assisted dying, except that if we do not address that simultaneously, some of those people will “choose” to end their life, because we as a society do not care about them enough to give them the care that might make life worth living. Surely that is a travesty for Britain.

[Dr Neil Shastri-Hurst (Solihull West and Shirley) (Con)]

Q I have a question for Dr Clarke and Dr Cox about the registration of deaths, which is dealt with in clause 29. Do you feel that the provisions set out in the clause are sufficient? If not, what further bolstering would provide the oversight needed to ensure that the processes and procedures are followed correctly?

Dr Cox: My understanding of the plan is that in the Bill—forgive me, but I am sketchy on this—the aim is for the registration to be as a natural death. It would not be referred to the coroner, and “assisted dying” would appear on the death certificate.

I am also a medical examiner. My concern is that, as a medical examiner, I am obliged by law to scrutinise all deaths to ensure that a referral to the coroner is not required and to identify any learnings. What concerns me in that role is whether enough recording is happening around decision making and the process to do my job properly. With my medical examiner hat on, do I know what happened? I do not see anything written down in the Bill about the records that are to be kept. What happened when the patient took the substance? What happened afterwards? Were any actions taken in the meantime? That is not so much something I have thought about a lot with my palliative care consultant hat on, but as a medical examiner it concerns me.

Dr Clarke: For the sake of time, I do not have anything to add. I completely agree with that.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourth sitting)

Juliet Campbell Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 29th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Rachel Hopkins]

You have given clarity. Thank you.

[Juliet Campbell (Broxtowe) (Lab)]

Q My question is for Professor Shakespeare and Dr Griffiths. Clause 4 of the Bill offers the opportunity for clinicians to instigate the discussion on assisted dying. Could you both tell me your view on that, please?

Professor Shakespeare: It is natural and right that somebody should discuss their wishes with a doctor who supports and treats them. I do not think there is a problem there. Marie’s suggestion that there should be a wider body to look at this is very relevant. At the moment, doctors refer women for abortions, and that does not stop them also supporting pregnant women. I do not think that women would distrust their doctor because they are sometimes involved, at some point, with an abortion decision. That is quite obvious. As my colleague Yogi Amin said, the Bill covers what the terminal illness is, and why we should support people to voluntarily exercise their choices. Lots of doctors will not be in favour of this, but they will be clinically professional and they will discuss with the person. I do not have a concern about that. You are more likely to be kept alive against your will than you are to end your life under this Act.

Dr Griffiths: My first point is that, for me, the Bill raises concerns because it relies on doctors’ interpretations of prognosis. If a doctor assumes that you have six months left to live, and is therefore going to start having a conversation with you about the possibility of assisted suicide, that draws into question how we allow assumptions to be made about whether an individual has six months left to live. That is particularly the case given that we have evidence that shows that, with certain interventions or mishaps surrounding prognosis, individuals can live for months, years and decades longer. The idea of bringing in the conversation from the point of view of the medical practitioner could, arguably, accelerate one’s death—if you take into account that their idea of prognosis might be flawed.

It also, I think, raises problems, because we know that many individuals with health conditions and impairments—irrespective of whether we want to create this false line between disabled people and people with terminal illness—do not have access to advocacy or representation in these kinds of processes. Having a conversation where there is extreme credibility and validity that rests on the medical practitioner could exacerbate issues around coercion.

We could take a moment of reflection. When we were going through the pandemic, the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman highlighted how medical practitioners could think about “do not attempt resuscitation” orders and how they were utilised in the disabled people’s community. That has parallels with the issue we have here, where medical practitioners will be making assumptions about whether conversations or applications should be made.

Yogi Amin: Can I just raise one point on representation? I point Members to paragraph 10 in my written submission, which tries to make the important point that if we are involving courts, individuals need access to justice. They need access to advice, and that means legal aid. I point in that paragraph to the provision of non-means-tested legal aid, just like in the case of parents of children and the withdrawal of life-sustaining treatment. Those current rules are in place for parents, and a similar arrangement could be put in place for individuals who are brought before the court in this matter.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Q I have a question for Mr Amin. England and Wales is a single jurisdiction, but health is devolved and we have been discussing an amendment to clause 12 in relation to the court of a multidisciplinary arrangement, as opposed to the High Court. What are the implications for the Committee to understand in how this plays out, with health being devolved but the jurisdiction being single?

Yogi Amin: If the legal panel is not a High Court judge, but it is a multidisciplinary panel, then it just draws upon the people in the local areas. The Court of Protection operates in England and Wales and the judges apply the law the same way. That is what the panel would do in this case. Are you more concerned about the make-up of the panel or how they apply it?

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Seventh sitting)

Juliet Campbell Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 30th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Q There was one thing I wanted to ask about, but it led me to another question, which is to Dr Naomi Richards. It seems that much of what we are discussing assumes that being patient-centric is intrinsic and runs day to day through medical culture. Is that actually the case in your experience? If not, is there something within the culture that needs to change to become more patient-centric in order to enable autonomy?

Dr Richards: I think you probably know the answer is that it is not patient-centric. In Marie Curie’s “Better End of Life Report 2024”, which was a representational survey with bereaved relatives, a third of people did not think that their relative even knew that they were dying. We still have a long way to go in communicating to people that they are in a terminal phase, so that they can find whatever residual value is in that period of time for themselves and their family. So, no, definitely not, but that is what we are striving for. I am sure that that is what all healthcare professionals are striving for.

In terms of assisted dying, it would be so explicit. It is categorically different from other kinds of conversations that are much more open-ended, like goals of care conversations at end of life. This is really quite specific, to the extent that you can actually give doctors a form of words to use, because their request for this procedure needs to be so categorical and there needs to be no ambiguity around that.

In a way, this conversation about assisted dying is actually different because it is very up front, it has to be very categorical and it has to be documented. In that sense, it is extremely patient-centric, and there would be no using euphemisms, which happens in end-of-life care, when what doctors think they have told their patients they do not hear. They have heard something else, because euphemisms change according to—well, you do not even have to go so far as to talk about different communities or cultural groups; they change from one person to another. I think this would require quite specific language. It would bring things into a much less ambiguous kind of territory.

[Juliet Campbell (Broxtowe) (Lab)]

Q My question is to Professor Preston. I will go back to something you said in your last answer, when we talked about how people are treated, and the differences and inequalities across society but also within our healthcare systems and how things are done. This was highlighted specifically during the pandemic. How do you think these inequalities will undermine the principles of the Bill?

Professor Preston: I think it is about having that additional consideration. When additional consideration for, perhaps, social deprivation or about people from minority groups is in the training and is at the forefront of people’s thinking, they can address it.

I will give you an example. We did a study looking at access to palliative care. I know you have heard a lot about there being a postcode lottery and things like that. One of our areas is one of the most deprived coastal communities in the country, and yet it had equal access for people across all areas of society, because they brought in people to target anyone from those socially deprived areas.

Equally, at the beginning of the first wave of the pandemic, at one of the big London hospitals, we analysed the data because we were concerned about access to palliative care services. Were people accessing it during the pandemic? We also looked by ethnicity. What we found was that not only during the pandemic, but pre-pandemic, if you were non-white, it took—I don’t know—three or five days longer to get that referral.

We had an idea that from some of the research we had done on social deprivation, people are making assumptions. It is not about people making horrible decisions, but they are making assumptions: “Oh, they will have a big family—the family will look after them. This will happen or that will happen.”

The nurse consultant, Claude Chidiac, went in and did training for the staff and said, “Don’t assume that just because people come from an Afro-Caribbean family that they have got this big family.” Within a year, when the second wave happened, the difference had gone. It can be at the forefront of training and you can make people really think about it. I would say—I think someone said it yesterday—that there is almost an inverse inequality, because I think those families and those communities will be really trying to protect people from even thinking about going for it.

[Daniel Francis]

Q My question is to Claire Williams and follows on from Dr Opher’s question. Clause 18(9) says that once the person has self-administered the approved substance, the doctor must stay with them until they have died, or until it has been determined by the co-ordinating doctor that the procedure has failed. We know from overseas that, in a very small number of cases, the procedure may take three or four days, so clearly the doctor cannot stay with them the whole time. Subsection (10) says that the doctor need not be in the same room as the person to whom the assistance is provided. I want to understand how that could be strengthened in terms of safeguarding. The clause says that the doctor must stay with them but, first, it is clearly not practical for the doctor to stay with them for a number of days, and, secondly, it goes on to say that the doctor need not be in the same room.

Claire Williams: Again, I can only apologise, as my evidence is about a committee-based, panel approach to decision making rather than what happens at that point of end of life. I do not know whether somebody else is able to come in.

Professor Preston: I can take that if you want.