External Private Contractors: Government Use and Employment

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 21st October 2020 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I was a long way down the queue to speak, Mr Pritchard, and I was worried about getting in, so I thank you and other hon. Members for making that happen. I thank the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Paula Barker) for bringing this issue forward. I have expressed concern about it over a number of years as an elected representative.

It seems like a lifetime ago—it probably was—that I sat on Ards Borough Council. I was very unhappy with the outsourcing of staff to agencies. While we advocated certain pay conditions and holidays, to get around that in practice, agency staff were used. Clearly, the agency staff did not have the same conditions as others, and that concerned me greatly.

I agree with the use of agency staff for the short term for some staff members, but the agency had staff in place for over a year. As with all things, those in government, both local and central, must lead by example. I am pleased that Ards and North Down Borough Council, my local council, has taken the brave decision to cut down on agency staff for the long term. That must be applauded. That means that the staff there now have the pay and conditions that they should have had at the very beginning.

Bringing things in house should bring accountability, and it sends the better message that we treat staff equally on pay and conditions. Civil servants are some of the brightest people we have. To think that we are unable to train them in different skills and move them into different areas of need does them a disservice. I saw many examples during the lockdown of council staff stepping out of their office and into another role that needed filling. It was clear that the potential and the desire were equally matched, and they had the ability to do those things.

I realise that there were extenuating circumstances, and some people do not handle moving area well, but others clearly excel, so there is no reason to bring in private contractors when we have the ability and foresight to plan ahead and upskill our own staff, allowing the private sector to make use of the resources, while we train those who dedicate their life to public service. The social security office staff in Ann Street in Newtownards have got their heads round the brand-new benefits system, which is quite difficult for them to use. They were able to rely on outside consultants and contractors, but the staff that were there were retained, so the conditions remained in place.

Time does not permit me to continue, but I must be clear. There are some things that must be outsourced, but others cannot and should be kept in-house. I want to make a plea for those who are in-house. and I recognise those good employers who do the right thing.

Covid-19 Update

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Monday 12th October 2020 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am glad to be back. My wife and I are still speaking after two weeks. If there had been a third week, there would have been a problem, but we are still together.

Could the Prime Minister provide an outline of his discussions with the First Minister, with special reference to the proposed circuit breakers that some chief medical officers are calling for, acknowledging that they would be successful only if they were UK-wide and centrally funded, as there is simply no funding available at present to allow businesses to continue to operate if they are forced to close yet again? This is particularly relevant to areas such as mine in Strangford, which has the second-lowest number of cases in the whole of Northern Ireland.

[The Prime Minister]

One of the problems is that places like Strabane in Northern Ireland have about 820 cases per 100,000, which is about the highest in the UK, perhaps in the whole of Europe. That is why we have to take the actions we are taking. I hear what the hon. Gentleman says about the circuit breaker. We want to give these measures time to work, if we possibly can.

EU Exit: End of Transition Period

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. As the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has pointed out, as we move away from the common agricultural policy, we move to a system where farmers can be supported with public money to provide public goods—for example, increasing the organic content of their soil or contributing to better and cleaner management of our waters—and, as the recent trade deal secured by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Trade shows, we have improved access for our superb produce to new markets.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster for his statement. Last Friday, I had the opportunity to meet Gordons pharmacy in Newtownards. As a type 2 diabetic, I declare an interest. Many are saying that insulin and other medications will not be able to be sourced post-Brexit. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell me what progress has been made to ensure that the supply of medicines from the EU to the UK, and then from GB mainland to Northern Ireland, will continue after the transition period ends?

[Michael Gove]

The hon. Gentleman raises a very important consideration, because of the operation of the Northern Ireland protocol. I was discussing yesterday with a Minister of State at the Department of Health and Social Care, and officials in the Northern Ireland Office and other Departments, how we can make sure that the supply of medical goods continues uninterrupted to Northern Ireland. He is quite right that one of the single most important is insulin, because of the particular requirements that diabetics like him, and indeed my father, faces.

Covid-19

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd September 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I thank my hon. Friend and, as I have said to Scottish colleagues across the House, we will continue to put our arms around workers and firms—businesses and jobs—across the country. That is why the furlough scheme was rolled out—the most imaginative and generous of any such scheme in Europe. As I have said, we are providing for every person in Scotland an extra £1,200 to help fight coronavirus, and £5.3 billion more was announced just this summer alone. The people of Scotland and the people of the whole UK can count on this Government to stand by them throughout the crisis.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Prime Minister for his statement today, but can he confirm that scheduled surgery—such as hip replacements, removal of tonsils, cancer surgeries, and diabetic screening and treatment—will continue with high standards of protection in place, that we will not see people falling through the gaps, and that where there are long waiting lists they will be reduced?

[The Prime Minister]

The whole objective of trying to prevent another boom in coronavirus suffering—a boom in coronavirus patients—is to protect the NHS and allow scheduled surgery of the kind the hon. Gentleman describes to continue.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 16th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Lewer (Northampton South) (Con)]

As Martin Howe QC outlined in a recent article, a single unified internal market is a key block in the constitutional foundations of the United Kingdom. When the transition period ends on 31 December, we shall be finally free to leave the provisions of the EU. This country needs a legislative framework that protects the integrity of the UK and provides continuity, certainty and prosperity to all four parts of the country.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The title to the Bill is to do with the issue of Northern Ireland’s status. The Bill ensures that Northern Ireland becomes an integral part of the United Kingdom, which is separate from the withdrawal agreement, which was agreed in January 2020. I know that the hon. Gentleman agrees that that is critical and very important so that we have unfettered access and so that our businesses will not be disadvantaged in any way. Does he agree that it is all about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as one entity rather than four regions?

[Andrew Lewer]

Yes, I do. Four as one is the way forward.

At a time when thousands of businesses around the UK are struggling to recover from the impact of coronavirus, no Member of this House should be in any doubt that we need to have in place a system that facilitates the free flow of goods and services around all parts of the UK. That gives us the opportunity, as these amendments touch on, to invest properly in infrastructure and projects that encourage development in all parts of the UK.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sammy Wilson]

I thank my hon. Friend, who has hit the nail on the head. We have all these threats—I have heard them from all around the House in the debate on this Bill. However, I have yet to hear how, first of all, anything in this Bill drives a coach and horses—to use the words of the hon. Member for Foyle—through the Belfast agreement. If it does that, I would have thought that he could give us one example. “Coach and horses” indicates to me that there should be about 100 examples, he did not even give the House one, and of course we get the usual threats.

I want to talk to our amendment 22. My concern is about the provision in this Bill to give financial assistance for all the areas that I have outlined. The danger is that, while it might apply in England, Scotland and Wales, it cannot apply in Northern Ireland, because financial assistance—and a whole range of other assistance, in tax, fiscal policy, industrial policy, research and development, and everything else—falls under the heading of state aid. The Government have realised—rather belatedly, even though they were warned—that the state aid provisions in the withdrawal agreement apply not only to Northern Ireland but to the whole of the United Kingdom, according to article 10 of the Northern Ireland protocol.

The Government have sought to remedy that—of course, they have got a lot of criticism for that—by saying that they will not apply those provisions to England, Scotland and Wales. However, the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy made the position quite clear in the letter that he has sent round, explaining that this legislation will

“ensure that there is no legal confusion about the fact that, while Northern Ireland will remain subject to the EU’s State Aid regime for the duration of the Protocol, Great Britain will not be subject to EU rules in this area.”

The reason for our amendment is to remove the exclusion of Northern Ireland in this Bill, which would otherwise prevent Northern Ireland from being able to benefit from that financial assistance.

If these infrastructure projects are to benefit the whole of the United Kingdom and to address national issues, I cannot understand how the Government can then say, “But by the way, we are consciously making a decision to exclude Northern Ireland from these safeguards.” Be in no doubt: without this Bill, under the withdrawal agreement, the whole of the United Kingdom would have to declare any assistance given to its industries, in any form. The Commission would make a judgment whether that was lawful, and if the Government persisted, the European Court of Justice would decide whether that support could be applied. That is the stark fact. That is one of the reasons why the Government have had to take the steps that they have taken, but they have left Northern Ireland out of that provision. Ministers have been quite explicit about that, and the Bill is quite explicit about that.

That has two effects. Let us not forget that we are talking about the internal market of the United Kingdom. The first impact is that Northern Ireland and businesses in Northern Ireland will be left unprotected from predatory behaviour or unfair competition from other countries in the EU, and especially the Irish Republic. We have good experience. People talk about co-operation between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic. The fact of the matter is that, when it comes to looking for investment, looking for jobs and promoting its economy, the Irish Republic is not co-operating with us. It is not a collaborator; it is a competitor. It has proved that time and again.

We do not have any transatlantic flights between Belfast International airport and North America, even though North America is a very important market for us and a very important source of investment, and connectivity is all-important in that context. Why do we not? Because the Irish Government have promoted flights and used every fiscal device and every means possible to promote Dublin airport. I could go through lots of examples, but time is short.

That is the first impact. Northern Ireland businesses will not have any means of protection. Even if the Northern Ireland Executive spot an issue and say, “We want to have some support for our industries,” that is challengeable in the European Commission and in the Court—which, by the way, we will have no political representation and no judicial representation in.

[Jim Shannon]

The agrifood and fisheries sectors are very important in my constituency and across Northern Ireland. We have past experience of the Republic of Ireland’s intentions towards the fishing sector. It is very important that we have control of that industry and can grow it. The agrifood sector is equally important. In my constituency, it provides some 2,500 jobs. Does he agree that, if we do not have this protection through our amendment to the Bill, we will be disadvantaged compared with other countries, and the Republic of Ireland in particular?

[Sammy Wilson]

Well, the whole withdrawal agreement disadvantages the economy of Northern Ireland. Some aspects have been tinkered with in this Bill, but many have been left as they are.

The second impact refers to the internal market of the United Kingdom. As a result of this Bill, it will be possible for the Government to support industries in GB but not businesses in Northern Ireland. We could therefore have a scenario where a firm located in Northern Ireland cannot benefit from the financial assistance that is available in the rest of the United Kingdom and finds itself in a position where it is advantageous to relocate from Northern Ireland, where it cannot get assistance, to other parts of GB, where it can. So much for this being a Bill to protect the internal market of the United Kingdom! By having a provision for financial aid and excluding Northern Ireland from the measures on ignoring the state aid provisions in the withdrawal agreement, we could distort investment across the United Kingdom to the detriment of Northern Ireland.

For those reasons, I believe that my party’s amendment is reasonable and fair. It meets the requirements and objectives of the Bill—namely, to ensure that the whole United Kingdom benefits from the prosperity that will come when we leave the European Union, and to ensure that the internal market of the United Kingdom will not be distorted. That is one of the reasons why I believe that the Government should include Northern Ireland in the provisions in clauses 42 and 43, and that the House should support amendment 22.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Jim Shannon Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading: House of Commons & Money resolution & Money resolution: House of Commons & Programme motion & Programme motion: House of Commons
Monday 14th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I will not.

The Bill is designed to honour that pledge and maintain those freedoms. When we renegotiated our withdrawal agreement from the EU, we struck a careful balance to reflect Northern Ireland’s integral place in our United Kingdom, while preserving an open border with Ireland, with the express and paramount aim of protecting the Belfast/Good Friday agreement and the peace process. In good faith, we accepted certain obligations in the Northern Ireland protocol in order to give our European friends the assurances they sought on the integrity of their single market, while avoiding any change to the border on the island of Ireland. We agreed to conduct some light-touch processes on goods passing between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in case they were transferred to the EU.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

rose—

[The Prime Minister]

I give way to the hon. Gentleman, who knows a great deal about the subject.

[Jim Shannon]

This is a very important debate, as the Prime Minister and I know and as everyone in the House knows. Does he accept that the EU’s determination to use Northern Ireland as a stick to beat the UK with as punishment for daring to leave an institution that had no respect or concern for our people has been underlined by the behaviour of MEPs, and indeed of some in this House, as they seek again, against the will of the majority of people, to stop Brexit instead of doing the honourable thing: respecting the vote and the recent general election validation, taking care of the UK and putting our people first, as the Prime Minister has said he will do? This legislation is a way of doing that.

[The Prime Minister]

The intention of the Bill is clearly to stop any such use of the stick against this country, and that is what it does. It is a protection, it is a safety net, it is an insurance policy, and it is a very sensible measure.

In a spirit of reasonableness, we are conducting these checks in accordance with our obligations. We are creating the sanitary and phytosanitary processes required under the protocol and spending hundreds of millions of pounds on helping traders. Under this finely balanced arrangement, our EU friends agreed that Northern Ireland—this is a crucial point—would remain part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom, able to benefit from free trade deals with other countries, which we are now beginning to strike. It ensures that the majority of goods not at risk of travelling to the EU—and that is the majority of goods going from GB to Northern Ireland—do not have to pay tariffs.

But the details of this intricate deal and the obvious tensions between some of its provisions can only be resolved with a basic minimum of common sense and good will from all sides. I regret to have to tell the House that in recent months the EU has suggested that it is willing to go to extreme and unreasonable lengths, using the Northern Ireland protocol in a way that goes well beyond common sense simply to exert leverage against the UK in our negotiations for a free trade agreement. To take the most glaring example, the EU has said that if we fail to reach an agreement to its satisfaction, it might very well refuse to list the UK’s food and agricultural products for sale anywhere in the EU. It gets even worse, because under this protocol, that decision would create an instant and automatic prohibition on the transfer of our animal products from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. Our interlocutors on the other side are holding out the possibility of blockading food and agricultural transports within our own country.

--- Later in debate ---

[Imran Ahmad Khan]

I am mildly surprised. I worked for some time for the Pentagon and the State Department, and I know the Americans very well. Like the United Kingdom, it is a nation built upon laws and it has representatives. The Americans know their national interest exceptionally well, and of course it is in the American national interest to have an expansive and ambitious free trade agreement with the United Kingdom, given our size and wealth.

It is not only certain Members of this House who make peculiar statements. I have no sympathy with the hysterical, hypocritical and hyperbolic statements from the EU, declaring that the UK uniquely will be in breach of its international commitments. Half the countries of the EU are in breach of their various treaty obligations. Germany and France both choose to deliberately breach their EU treaty commitments relating to budget deficit limits, and others are famous for being selective in deciding which rules to follow. However, the UK has always held itself to a higher standard. Our principles of fair play and freedom, underpinned by the rule of law, are who we are. They are part of our DNA, and must be protected. Our position of global leadership and permanent membership of the Security Council is derived not from being a victorious power but from our moral authority. Moral authority is hard earned and easily lost. Once damaged, it is difficult to repair.

Having consulted highly respected experts in international law, some of us have concluded that if the EU, in breach of its obligations to act in good faith and with best endeavours, were to employ the withdrawal agreement as a Trojan horse, this Bill, if enacted and employed, would not necessarily constitute a breach of our commitments, under either UK or international law. Rather, the Bill would then serve as a protection against the abuse of our good nature and a reminder to the Commission of its obligations.

[Jim Shannon]

There have also been other legal opinions sought, one of which was from Martin Howe QC. He refers to the alteration of the “constitutional status” of Northern Ireland that across-the-board tariffs on GB-to-Northern Ireland exports would entail, saying that this would be a breach of the core principle of the Good Friday agreement. He goes on to say:

“International law does not justify a later treaty to which these community representatives are not parties being used to over-ride the rights they enjoy under the earlier treaty”.

That is another legal opinion, and it might be very different from those sought by the hon. Gentleman.

[Imran Ahmad Khan]

My great problem with the Government’s position is the predicament in which they have placed people who share my view—I think the hon. Gentleman probably shares it too—because that view has been undermined, I am sad to say, by the assertion of a Government Minister that the Bill would represent a specific and limited breach of international law.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to follow my fellow Unionist from Scotland, and I agree with him. The first question I ask myself about the Bill is this: will it strengthen the Union? In as far as it goes, I believe it will. We would like more to be done, but let me briefly mention the points raised about the Good Friday agreement. I grew up in a Northern Ireland that was deeply troubled. I lost members of my family, who were murdered during those troubles. I do not want to go back to those dark days.

Who is it that threatens the peace process in Northern Ireland? It is not Her Majesty’s Government who threaten that peace process; it is these men and women in the shadows. Who is playing fast and loose with the peace process? Who is using it as a political football in this situation? I do not believe the UK Government are using the Northern Ireland peace process as some kind of political football or a negotiating point.

[Jim Shannon]

Clause 47 ensures that as a sovereign nation, the UK will set the rules on state aid for Northern Ireland. Does my right hon. Friend agree that that is a vital means of fending off predatory behaviour from our nearest competitor, and EU threats regarding the supply of food without an agreement and without this Bill? The Bill is necessary to ensure that Northern Ireland has basic food importation from the rest of the UK, if those threats are carried through by the EU in the event of a no deal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)]

We need to come back to some reality about what this Bill is actually about. This Bill is about safeguarding the future of the United Kingdom, because it is about safeguarding the ability of nations to be able to trade with each other. I am sure many of our constituents would be flabbergasted that we even have to pass a Bill to do that. They would think that would come as a matter of course. In doing so, we will be giving businesses the certainty they need during this very difficult period. So many of the details that should have been ironed out by now are still left hanging, so we should be unsurprised that we are discussing this Bill tonight.

When the withdrawal agreement was put to the House of Commons and we voted on it, we did so based on the notion that it would be dealt with in negotiations in good faith and using best endeavours, because that is the way negotiations proceed, but all of us who remember the way that our country has been treated throughout this process perhaps should not be surprised that we find ourselves here today and that the Government feel that this Bill is an essential safety net that needs to be put in place.

[Jim Shannon]

rose—

[Mrs Miller]

I will not give way, as a lot of people need to speak today. This is a safety net to stop the EU being able to determine UK trade policy, not overseas, but within our own countries. Despite a referendum result, votes in this Parliament and the clear will of the British people at the last general election, we still find ourselves in this period of uncertainty with the EU. So I believe the debate tonight is as much about British sovereignty as it is about the rule of law, and Members need to reflect on that.

The Government are in an invidious position. They are negotiating with an organisation that is renowned for and thrives on its love of last-minute agreements and all-night negotiations. The truth is that the EU still wants to make this country’s exit from its trading bloc as difficult as possible, and its behaviour, in delay upon delay, has to come to an end. If this Bill is part of that process, it gets my full support. The British people can see the tactics being deployed by the EU for what they are. Many Opposition Members know this and sit uneasy when listening to their Front Benchers’ rationale for not supporting the Bill tonight, because they know that their electorate are as fed up as everybody else that we are here today again, with the EU attempting to stifle the will of the British people. I speak as somebody who voted to remain in the EU but who has been appalled by the way we have been treated ever since, with the EU using its treatment of the UK as a strong message to other member states. I listened carefully to what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill), and I hope that the Minister will deal directly with the issues he raised.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd July 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Excellent.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is always a pleasure to ask a question of the Minister. There are strong links between alcohol and domestic violence. Covid-19 shone a spotlight on the high levels of domestic violence in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. There is a real risk that the ongoing economic crisis will lead to a surge in high-risk alcohol consumption. In that context, what steps is she able to take to prevent alcohol-related domestic violence?

[Kemi Badenoch]

We are absolutely clear that alcohol is no excuse for domestic abuse or any other kind of abusive behaviour. We are acutely aware of the need to put victims at the heart of our approach to tackling domestic abuse at this time. We are working closely with domestic abuse charities, the domestic abuse commissioner and the police to understand the needs of victims of this type of abuse and how we can best support them.

British Overseas Troops: Civil Liability Claims

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 16th July 2020 Commons Chamber

[Johnny Mercer]

For me, service in the military is very clear. You adhere to the law. If you break the law, you will be charged and prosecuted. If you do nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about. You operate within the law of armed conflict. Those who are elected to this place to look after you will, from this point on, do their job and protect you.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The Minister has stated that fairness is at the heart of this, and I thank him for that. Does he agree that soldiers who are injured or deployed internationally in service of Queen and country deserve the same route to civil satisfaction as the civil servants in Whitehall, who have no restrictions and no limitations on their civil liability claim ability?

[Johnny Mercer]

I believe that those who operate in our armed forces are entitled to the protection they deserve. This Bill protects them. That is why I struggle to understand the context, because this is all about protecting our servicemen and women from an abhorrent process that has ruined some of our finest people over the years. I am happy to look again at all aspects of the Bill, but I want to build a collegiate approach in this House to get the Bill through. We agree that this must happen—let us get it done.

Parliamentary Constituencies Bill

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Report stage & 3rd reading & 3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Tuesday 14th July 2020 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Gullis]

New clause 1 is in my opinion about stopping equalisation, because through this Bill we are going to see equal, fairer boundaries. The hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle) talked about the shires—I am not quite sure that the shires of Stoke-on-Trent exist at the moment but I look forward to seeing them being created, apparently, with the so-called gerrymandering that we are trying to do.

We talk time and again about the idea of identity. Let me tell the House about Stoke-on-Trent. We might be a city, but we are a federation of towns, from Burslem to Tunstall, to Longton, to Fenton. Even within that, when we talk about identities, in the ward of Baddeley, Milton and Norton, we have Norton Green and Norton le Moors, and if someone says to a Norton Green resident, “You are a member of Norton le Moors”, they will get accosted—as I rightly did, on the doorsteps during the last general election campaign—for misannouncing them. So even though we talk about this idea of 5% to 7.5%, we are still talking about identities that are broken down even within the wards of local councils.

As I said, the community I represent is an amalgamation of pit villages, small towns and little villages. However, I dare to cross from Stoke-on-Trent to—this is where the hon. Gentleman will be pleased—Staffordshire County Council, so I do have a small number of shires, in the guise of Kidsgrove, Talke and a small slice of Newchapel. Again, the people of Stoke-on-Trent North and Kidsgrove would identify as sharing common values. Even though they are different areas with different needs, they have a proud industrial mining heritage. Therefore, new clause 1 effectively goes against this idea, giving 7.5% here and 5% there. That is not equalisation. That is against it and once we start applying the rule to one area, we think, “Do we apply the rule to this area instead?” It becomes a bit of a mess, so I have to honourably disagree with Opposition Members on new clause 1. I will, of course, be voting against it.

On new clause 3, I wholeheartedly support my hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham (Mr Holden) on the use of the electoral roll rather than estimates. I agree that this could become a grey area. How would the estimates be calculated? How would we create the formula to make it viable in future? The electoral roll is something solid. It is something that businesses and politicians use. It is simple and we should carry on using it.

Let us not forget that this is an important time for us to update the boundaries. In Stoke-on-Trent, I represent—I say this cheekily—a larger constituency than my hon. Friends the Members for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Jo Gideon) and for Stoke-on-Trent South (Jack Brereton). Do I get paid more for doing more work than them? They would argue that they work harder and I would not necessarily disagree on some areas. They are very good at chuntering—[Interruption.] I know, spicy. The idea that there should be a difference is not a fair one. We want to be equal. We are a proud city and every single one of us wants to represent our areas. There are areas like Abbey Hulton, where, I believe, I have 15 electorates from the ward in my constituency. I find that rather bizarre. The way the boundaries have grown over time with housing developments in my area has left us in a bit of a confusing mess. This is, therefore, a good time to update the boundaries so that the people of Stoke-on-Trent can be represented as they deserve to be, in an equal and measured way, and in an area that they notice and understand. As I say, the idea that we must go on local government boundary wards is for the past, not the future.

Finally, I will have a little pop at new clause 2. I have great love for the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden). We get on incredibly well. We disagree on everything, but we have a good chat. I know he is desperate to leave this place and never ever to have to come back, but I have to remind him that we are one United Kingdom. It is therefore only right that for the people of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, who again are my dear friends—I know the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) will be disappointed that I say this—we ensure there is equality and fairness across our United Kingdom. I will be voting against new clause 2 and I urge Members across the House to do so, too. I am sure that will be used on Facebook as a clip of “the English so-and-sos stopping us having what we want”. I wholeheartedly support the Government in what they are doing today.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis). He and I have been very good friends in this House in the short time he has been here. I agree with him that we are always better together. It is better to have the four regions together as one. That is the real United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland: stronger, better together every time.

This is not the first time I have spoken on this issue and I will start by declaring, as I always do, an interest in having the most wonderful constituency in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Strangford is the most beautiful constituency it is possible to have and I am very pleased to be able to represent it. It brings a lot of communities together and we have an affiliation with each other. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) and my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) mentioned earlier, we absolutely require the 10% variation on the quota given our distinct geographical circumstances and the limitations to what changes can be made in Northern Ireland. As everyone knows, we have a land frontier with another country, so our circumstances are very different from everybody else’s.

One issue that is essential, especially in Northern Ireland with the mix of rural and urban in almost every constituency, is the notion of belonging and community. My constituency of Strangford represents the council areas of Ards and North Down, and parts of Lisburn and Castlereagh, and Newry, Mourne and Down. When I was first elected in 2010, we had a massive change in that Ballynahinch East was added to Strangford. I made a decision to make sure that they knew their MP and opened an office in Ballynahinch to underline my commitment to make them a part of Strangford when they never were before.

The office costs allowance could never fully cover another office, but I made the decision because people could not necessarily travel some 45 to 50 miles—an hour or thereabouts—to my office in Newtonards. That has been a great boost because the people of Ballynahinch now very clearly see the constituency of Strangford as it is now and as it should be. When that happened back in 2010, the southern part of Ballynahinch—the Spa area—went into South Down and the west part went into the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley. This area was slightly different from the rest of Strangford and required an office to make its MP accessible to all, and I believe that decision was the right one.

However, every time there is a tinkering with the boundaries, it becomes an issue. Although numbers are easy to understand and move around, people’s identities are less easy to move around. To me, identity is very important, and people’s kinship is worthy of consideration. That is why I am delighted that some of the early proposals did not find their way into these final measures. I understand the concerns of some Members. The Bill has rightly ring-fenced the Isle of Wight, and the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Virginia Crosbie), in her contribution, referred to that as well. In Northern Ireland, we must take account of individual circumstances, not simply let the numbers involved in a headcount be the be all and end all.

I can remember a situation where, to put in place the ward of Carrowdore, two people had to be moved—just two people. They lived no more than 300 yards from the school where they voted, and they were moved out and had to go and vote in Carrowdore, a 20-minute journey by car down the road. That tinkering, I believe, was wrong, and I did make representations to the commission at that time. The sentiment has been embedded in my mind that where someone votes can matter, and that while moving those two on the map tidied up the numbers, it impacted on people. That must always be a consideration. I believe it is very important that people feel they are part of the constituency and part of the area.

I am thankful that after I hang up my tie and take off these worn leather shoes—it is probably a long time away, by the way, but it happens to all of us who look to be here—Strangford will remain and prosper, and I hope that remains the case for years to come. Strangford, my constituency, has been held together over these years with blood, sweat and tears, and that must be recognised and protected. The personality and the affiliation of Strangford must be considered along with the numbers for every constituency. It is not just about numbers; it is about the constituency and about the people whom we represent. What a joy it is to represent Strangford! It is my pleasure.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Chloe Smith)]

And what a pleasure it is, as always, to follow the remarks of the sage of Strangford, the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), with his unrivalled love for his constituency and, may I say, for this Chamber, which he demonstrates day after day—and evening after evening.

Let me take each proposed amendment in turn. I will do my best to accommodate the comments that hon. and right hon. Members have made. If I do not manage to do justice to all of that, I will try to accommodate them in my remarks on Third Reading.

Starting with new clause 1, I am very grateful to hon. Members for all their contributions, because it was a very strong theme in Committee. It is about how much flexibility ought to be given to the boundary commissions. Let me start by outlining that 5% is the existing law—the status quo—and there are a number of reasons why the Government have chosen not to change the legislation in that area and why we therefore do not support the new clause. When we say plus or minus 5%, we are talking about a range of 10% around the electoral quota. By that token, when we talk about plus or minus 7.5%, what is being spoken about is a range of 15%. By my calculation, each percentage is over 1,000 people, and people matter in this.

We believe that a 10% range does give the boundary commissions the space that they need to take account of the other factors that they may consider. As hon. Members will know, those include local geographical features, community ties, local government boundaries and existing parliamentary boundaries. At this point, I note that my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) is right that discussions are ongoing with the Boundary Commission for England, picking up on what we did in Committee.

Some characterise 10% as overly mathematically or too constraining—I think those were the words used by the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Cat Smith)—but that is not the case. It is right that the boundary commissions are able to engage in dialogue with local communities—that is very important—and are able to adjust the number of electors to reflect important community ties. The 10% range allows that, and the proof is seen in an example from the Boundary Commission for England: in the 2016-18 review, more than 50% of its initial proposals were changed in the light of consultation and feedback.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Clarkson]

They sound like lovely parishes. I could also mention Norden, Bamford, Castleton, Heywood and Middleton in my constituency, and just have. I wish to pay tribute to everybody who participated in the Bill Committee, because I think we have achieved a robust Bill. Obviously, we will see what their lordships send back to us and no doubt we will have further interesting and exciting psephological exuberance, as I said earlier. I also wish to put on record my thanks to the Clerks, all the House staff and all the Bill Committee members, and, of course, to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for being here tonight. I have to say how disappointed I am not to hear the hon. Member for Strangford speak—

[Jim Shannon]

Don’t go away.

[Chris Clarkson]

I will not.

Electoral Reform

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Monday 8th June 2020 Commons Chamber

[Wendy Chamberlain]

Again, I entirely agree with what my hon. Friend says; this has created our two-party politics and divisiveness, and, as a result, there is not the opportunity to work in consensus.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

In my political career, I have been a councillor on Ards Borough Council, elected under a proportional representation system; I was also in the Northern Ireland Assembly, to which I was again elected under a PR system; and I was fortunate to have the opportunity to come here in 2010, under a straight first-past-the-post system. I understand the benefits of both systems, and why in Northern Ireland we needed an Assembly that could bring the parties together. There is a reason for using the proportional system where it is used, but does the hon. Lady agree that the first-past-the-post system sits here as well?

[Wendy Chamberlain]

I cannot agree that first past the post has a place, because I believe that we can use other ways and methodologies to represent constituencies, such as the single transferrable vote, which would give us the same result but would be more representative of the way people voted. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention.

We should not let warm feelings get in the way of cold hard reality. I urge Members and the Government to reflect on whether there is an unfairness here. Will a change benefit people’s lives across the UK and the devolved nations? Indeed, would what we are talking about actually work better across the four nations, when three of our four nations, as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said, actually have some form of proportional representation in how they elect Members to their Parliaments and Assemblies? I believe there is only one answer. Now really is time that we should consider electoral reform.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chloe Smith]

We are indeed in this place to improve our democracy. That is why I took the time when opening my remarks to set out some of the ways I am doing that. I am sorry to make a partisan point, but when the hon. Lady’s party was in government—it got there under a version of this system—it tried to improve the voting system, and the British people said no. That was to be my third point against making the move from the first-past-the-post system to what, in that case, was the alternative vote system. That was put fairly and squarely to people in a referendum and they declined it; they said, no, they did not want to make that change. It would not be fair to ask people that again in such short order, because it is rather an important principle that when you have a referendum you respect its results.

[Jim Shannon]

rose—

[Chloe Smith]

I give way to the hon. Gentleman, having named him several times.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the Minister. We were elected as the Members of Parliament for our constituencies in this House under first past the post. I know I have said this, I am sure the Minister has said it, and probably every other Member here has said it. As a member of the Democratic Unionist party, the fact of the matter is that I am everybody’s MP. Does she agree that everybody is the MP for their constituency, as everybody else is here, whether people agree with our political views or not?

[Chloe Smith]

Yes, that is a very wise summary to put into this debate. It puts me back in mind of some important principles that the hon. Member for North East Fife struck in her remarks. She was keen to see that people should not be left feeling disenfranchised in a certain constituency. She was keen to see a reduction in the adversarial nature that sometimes can creep into—dare I say?—all sorts of politics, but she identified it in our politics in this country. She was keen to explore how a Member of Parliament could represent everyone in their constituency, which I think connects to the point that the hon. Member for Strangford just made.

I feel very strongly on these matters as well. It has always been a point of some passion for me, actually, that I think we can do those things within the first-past-the-post system. That goes back to my point about the politics of place and the fact that we are accountable to that particular community and that particular group of people—a relatively small group of people, in fact, on some international comparisons. We have to strive to represent all of them. It is our duty to do so, however difficult that may sometimes seem when there are opposing views, naturally, within a body of people, and only one of us. We have to do that and we have to use our judgment to do it. That is, in my view, the very rewarding job that we seek to do. If we can do it right, that can, I hope, deliver some satisfaction to our constituents as well, with the ability to say no to us if they would rather it was not us in our place.