Outsourcing: Government Departments
Gregory Campbell Excerpts(3 weeks, 3 days ago)
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John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Ind)
I have come to this debate because of our recent experiences of visiting picket lines, with regard both to Government Departments and, in particular, the railway sector. I have been a trade union rep in the public sector, but I have also been a manager in the public sector: I was chief executive of the Association of London Government and I also was in a London borough, managing large numbers of staff.
When you have the scale of disputes that we have, I think we have to recognise that there is an underlying industrial relations problem that has to be addressed. I would invite the Minister to join us on some of those picket lines over the coming weeks, because the disputes in the Government Departments are starting again next week and we will have picket lines for several Government Departments around Whitehall.
I have tried to identify the underlying problem causing these disputes, and when we talk to the workers themselves on the picket lines, it is strikingly obvious. Some of them—well, all the ones I have met—are on, I think, shocking levels of low pay. When you talk to them, particularly those based in London, you wonder how they are surviving on the pay that they are receiving. Also, they have conditions of work that I thought we had eradicated years ago. I am talking about lack of access to sick pay, some of them being paid below legal minimums at the moment, and many of them being without any pension rights whatever apart from the statutory pension. So we have a group of people who are on low pay, in insecure work, and feeling extremely exploited, so they have no other resort but to take industrial action. I want to point out what is interesting. I invite everyone to come on those picket lines and look around them, because the vast majority of those workers are from the BAME community; so there is also an issue with inequality in our employment practices as well.
Various unions have provided us with briefings for the debate today, and most of them have done surveys of their members to identify what is the issue facing their members that they should be putting to management. Some of the survey results are stark. The RMT did a survey, and I want to talk about the response that it had from its members. It has about 10,000 members who have been outsourced on trains; Transport for London, for cleaning, has 2,000; and Network Rail has 2,500. What happened then? In the survey results that came back, 80% of the workforce who had been outsourced were saying that they were struggling to meet their basic needs: to pay the rent, pay for food, and so on; 90% were worried about bills coming in. What was interesting was that more than 80% of them were saying, “We come to work when we’re sick, because we can’t take the time off—we can’t even afford to be sick.”
That is why the disputes are taking place, and they involve the same old companies: G4S, ISS, OCS and Mitie. These are companies that have made extensive profits out of the outsourcing, and the bulk of their profits is obviously made from the low pay that they are forcing upon their members of staff. It causes real anger among the workforce when they are seeing these companies paying out high dividends to shareholders, while at the same time they will not pay the staff a decent wage.
There needs to be an understanding in Government that if we are to have decent public services, there has to be a re-examination of how we provide those public services. I agree with what has been said by the deputy leader of our party, and by the Chancellor, which is that we need
“the biggest wave of insourcing…for a generation”,
because I think that is the way to tackle insecure work, low pay, and so on.
My hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough and Thornaby East (Andy McDonald) raised the other issue about outsourcing, which is that it has an impact on productivity. If a worker is exploited, if they are not paid properly, if they are worried at work about how they are going to survive, it does impact on how they deliver the service. That is inevitable; it would have an impact on all of us. As a result we have found that productivity issues are a real problem in some of these sectors. Unfortunately, because of the old Treasury Green Book model, that is resulting in even more outsourcing being justified: it becomes a vicious circle.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
The right hon. Gentleman said that he fully agreed with the deputy leader of his party. I wonder whether there was an undue emphasis on the word “deputy” rather than “leader”.
John McDonnell
I am lost on that one—completely. There are conspiracy theories here that I have never even heard of or even thought of, so I will pass on that one.
What we are asking the Minister for today is a strategy. The first step in that strategy must be to meet the unions themselves. A number of unions have asked whether they can they have a meeting whereby, Department by Department, they can work with the Government, looking at what contracts there are, seeing how those contracts can be brought in in this biggest wave of insourcing in a generation, and how the legislation, particularly the Employment Rights Bill that is progressing through Parliament at the moment, can include the initiative and rights and responsibilities to bring that insourcing about. There is a strategy that can be developed alongside the Government’s procurement policy, that can address all these issues and will be cost-effective for the Government in the long term.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Jeremy. I thank the hon. Member for Middlesbrough and Thornaby East (Andy McDonald) for securing this debate. I do not say this lightly: he is truly a doughty champion—so I say well done.
The issue of outsourcing is a sticky one that I well remember from my days as an alderman on Ards council. My wife used to say, “If you’re looking for the alderman, you mean the older man.” She always called me the older man, not the alderman. She put me in my place manys a time.
I served on Ards borough council from 1985 to 2010, and I can well recall the financial arguments for and against outsourcing, and weighing the control we had against that which we would lose. I want to give a specific example that will, I hope, illustrate and support what the hon. Member for Middlesbrough and Thornaby East and other hon. Members have said.
Ards borough council decided to keep leisure in house when we created our new leisure centre, which is now called the Blair Mayne wellbeing and leisure complex, after the heroic SAS man who is portrayed in “SAS Rogue Heroes” every Sunday night at 9 pm or thereabouts. North Down borough council had outsourced its service, and when the councils were amalgamated, both outsourced and in-house services were being provided. The pros and cons of each option are easy to see, and yet it is hard to determine the best way forward. That example shows most effectively that we should never believe in a one-size-fits-all approach.
Mr Gregory Campbell
On the point of one size not fitting all, does my hon. Friend agree that we must look at the issue in a sensible, pragmatic way, and that neither a hyper-capitalist approach nor a radical socialist approach is the answer to these problems? We need a sensible, pragmatic approach that delivers good, effective services to the public while protecting the rights of those who work in those services.
Oral Answers to Questions
Gregory Campbell Excerpts(2 months ago)
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Dame Nia Griffith
As the hon. Lady will be well aware, we are looking at the consultation responses and will respond fully as is appropriate.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
In rolling out any legislation, will the Minister ensure that mature adults who, of their own volition, want to take part in discussions of gender issues in faith-based settings will not be restricted or inhibited from so doing?
Dame Nia Griffith
I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we are looking carefully at how to describe the sort of behaviour that would not be criminalised by the ban.
Oral Answers to Questions
Gregory Campbell Excerpts(9 months, 1 week ago)
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Kemi Badenoch
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. There are various reasons why women and men should be able to access single-sex spaces, and public toilets are no exception. We are updating building regulations so that toilets in non-domestic buildings offer safety, privacy and dignity for all people who use them. There is often confusion between gender-neutral toilets and unisex toilets. We support unisex toilets, but through these new building regulations we are trying to get rid of toilets and bathrooms where men and women share the same space.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
Kemi Badenoch
The Online Safety Act 2023 introduced new offences that criminalise sharing or threatening to share an intimate image without consent, which includes deepfake intimate images. The Government are working to ensure that we are ready to respond to the full range of threats to our democratic processes, including through the defending democracy taskforce. If deepfakes are discovered by users on social media, they should report them directly to the platform. In the case of elections, they should be reported directly to the Electoral Commission, because it is already an electoral offence to make false statements of fact about the character or conduct of a candidate during an election.
Oral Answers to Questions
Gregory Campbell Excerpts(9 months, 4 weeks ago)
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Oliver Dowden
That is a good question; it is something the Government continue to keep open and under review. The argument against doing so is that it could discourage companies that are subject to ransomware attacks from reporting them, for example to the National Cyber Security Centre. Those reports help us to gather intelligence on the nature of those threats and to work with victims to resolve them. It is not something I rule out totally, but that is the reason that we have not imposed it so far.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
The Minister for Veterans’ Affairs, the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer), will know that many councils in Northern Ireland have appointed veterans’ champions. Will he join me in acknowledging the work that many veterans’ champions do? Will he also call on the wide range of political parties on councils in Northern Ireland to offer their unstinting support to those champions to help to deliver services to veterans?
The Minister for Veterans’ Affairs (Johnny Mercer)
Yes, of course. We have made extraordinary progress on veterans affairs in Northern Ireland. I recognise and have always recognised the unique difficulties of that. Veterans’ services, and ensuring that these people are looked after because of their service, should not be at the whim of different political parties. I am working at pace to establish an outpost of the Office for Veterans’ Affairs in Northern Ireland to create an environment where everyone can work together and pull together all the different services to get veterans’ care in Northern Ireland up to the same level as in England. I look forward to working with the hon. Gentleman and other elected representatives out there from all parties to make sure that we do the right thing.
Oral Answers to Questions
Gregory Campbell Excerpts(9 months, 4 weeks ago)
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Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
The return of devolution has to be built on, particularly as there are still some issues to be resolved. While some in Northern Ireland concentrate on complaining about the outstanding problems, there are those of us who are committed to resolving them. The Secretary of State is in a better position than most to help to resolve them. Will he recommit today to our seeing further moves in the coming weeks in the direction of resolving all the outstanding issues?
Chris Heaton-Harris
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his recent honour for his many years of elected public service in this place and to his constituents. Yes, he absolutely can have that commitment from me. I am committed to delivering at great pace on all the pledges we made in the Command Paper, and I am absolutely committed to delivering the best outcomes for everyone across Northern Ireland, because that is what Northern Ireland deserves.
Oral Answers to Questions
Gregory Campbell Excerpts(10 months ago)
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The Minister for Science, Research and Innovation (Andrew Griffith)
In2tec is indeed a great example of innovation in sustainable electronics. I am pleased that it has benefited from £250,000 in UK support. It would be my pleasure to visit my hon. Friend’s constituency in Kettering, and I believe we have a date soon.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
Julia Lopez
Absolutely. The hon. Gentleman is right about the importance of gigabit broadband to the economy. I am very glad to say that 95% of Northern Ireland has that access—the highest percentage in the country. That is a tribute to the work done between central Government and the Northern Ireland Assembly.
Oral Answers to Questions
Gregory Campbell Excerpts(11 months ago)
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Kemi Badenoch
I thank my hon. Friend for highlighting the issue. She will be pleased to know that just last week, following calls from the UK, Lord Ahmad, the Minister in the other place, attended the UN Security Council to express deep concerns about the findings of the UN special representatives of the Secretary-General on their recent visit to the region. The UK is leading work internationally through our preventing sexual violence initiative, and through dedicated funding, totalling £60 million, to prevent conflict-related sexual violence and to strengthen justice and support for all survivors.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Maria Caulfield)
It was this Conservative Government who introduced mandatory gender pay gap reporting for large employers, to shine a light on the gender pay gap and promote action to close it. As a result, the gender pay gap has fallen by approximately a quarter over the past decade.
Mr Campbell
I thank the Minister for her response. Can she indicate whether the narrowing of the gender pay gap over the past 10 years has been less pronounced, in percentage terms, among women on lower incomes than among those on larger salaries?
Maria Caulfield
Actually, the results from our gender pay gap reporting are slightly different: it is in higher-paid professions that the gender pay gap seems to exist, but that is because women are often in low-paid work. The hon. Member is absolutely right to raise the issue. Next month, we are introducing a pay rise of 10% for the lowest paid through an increase to the national living wage. After the national insurance cut, added on to the cut in January, people will be almost £900 better off in work.
Oral Answers to Questions
Gregory Campbell Excerpts(11 months, 3 weeks ago)
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Mr Baker
I will certainly give the Executive every support, while of course respecting the devolution settlement. To give my hon. Friend one example, the reason I was in Northern Ireland last night with Retail NI was to promote the Department for Business and Trade’s terrific offering in Northern Ireland, which includes a trade and investment hub that covers the UK Export Academy and the export support service. There are now 16 DBT export champions, which includes in-person support. If anyone wishes to learn greater detail, I recommend that they go to the great.gov.uk website.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
Will the Minister liaise with the relevant Departments in Northern Ireland to maximise the benefits of promoting and developing the only enterprise zone in Northern Ireland, which is in my constituency, as are excellent broadband facilities—the best in these islands? That way, we can promote our economy, bring inward investment and create prosperity.
Mr Baker
The hon. Gentleman makes a great case for his constituency, and I would certainly like to see terrific levels of investment into it. However, I would like us to go further: I would like to see that investment zone reach right across the whole of Northern Ireland. I hope and expect that together, the UK Government and the restored Executive will make the most of that opportunity.
Oral Answers to Questions
Gregory Campbell Excerpts(1 year ago)
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Julia Lopez
My hon. Friend highlights the challenge I have had in answering this question. The mobile connectivity figures I have for her constituency are extremely high. This highlights the issue we have with Ofcom’s reporting maps, which are simply not good enough. We have consistently raised this with Ofcom, and we hope to make progress.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
There has been significant improvement in rural broadband connectivity in Northern Ireland as a result of our agreement with the previous Government. Will the Minister take steps to ensure that small businesses in rural areas across the country can further develop themselves by maximising this advantage?
Julia Lopez
The hon. Gentleman is right to highlight the fantastic connectivity in Northern Ireland. In fact, I think it has some of the very best connectivity in the entire country. I will look into any spots that are still not covered, and I will happily get back to him.
Oral Answers to Questions
Gregory Campbell Excerpts(1 year ago)
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John Lamont
The biggest enemy of the Barnett formula and of devolution in Scotland is the SNP. It wants to rip up the devolution settlement and stop the Barnett formula, which results in millions of pounds of extra investment going into Scotland each year. The Conservative Government remain absolutely committed to devolution, the Barnett formula and more investment into Scotland.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (John Lamont)
The United Kingdom Government have taken action to make trade between Scotland and Northern Ireland easier. The UK Government have also committed to providing funding to deliver targeted improvements to the A75. That will provide better links between the Cairnryan ferry terminals serving Northern Ireland and south-west Scotland, benefiting businesses on both sides of the north channel.
Mr Campbell
The Minister will, like many, understand that the economic powerhouse of the United Kingdom is usually centred in the south-east of England, to the detriment of the south-west of Scotland and Northern Ireland. Will he do more to ensure that that small 12-mile stretch of water between Scotland and Northern Ireland is bridged in business terms by greater co-operation and expansion opportunities for people on either side of it?
John Lamont
The hon. Member makes an important point. I fully recognise the strong links between south Scotland and Northern Ireland, and the potential to enhance those economic ties is great. Improved transport links, including the A75 and ferry links, are undoubtedly part of that. I look forward to working with him to see how we might be able to enhance and improve those links.