Dominic Grieve
Main Page: Dominic Grieve (Independent - Beaconsfield)Department Debates - View all Dominic Grieve's debates with the Attorney General
(13 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Chris Bryant
I give way to the Attorney-General, in the hope that he will make the same point as well.
The Attorney-General
The hon. Gentleman has taken the wind out of my sails in one respect. I was going to agree with him that it was possible to set up an inquiry. However, I am sure he will appreciate that it becomes extremely difficult for an inquiry to take any evidence while criminal proceedings may still be taking place. That is obviously one reason why the Gibson inquiry has not yet begun its work, which it was hoped would start at the end of last year. I certainly note the hon. Gentleman’s comments about the possibility of setting up an inquiry, but it may not make much progress until the criminal investigations are over.
Chris Bryant
I am grateful to the Attorney-General for the way in which he has expressed himself. That is, in fact, a big concession. I think it important for us to make progress, not least because I think that the police themselves would like the sword of Damocles to hang over their necks, so that they know they must proceed and proceed apace. Also, when it comes to an inquiry—especially in this case—they sometimes have to look through the historiography of all the different documentation, and it is important to ensure that that is garnered now, privately.
I see no reason—other than a lack of will, or fear of what it might unveil—for the Government not to set up an inquiry, establish its terms of reference, and appoint its membership immediately.
The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve)
First, may I congratulate the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) on having secured this debate and thank him, on behalf of the House and on my own behalf, for his courage in raising these matters today? I am absolutely sure that the whole House shares his anxiety, shock and concern about the allegations that have arisen over the last couple of days in relation to phone hacking, just as we share his concern over the past allegations of phone hacking and many of the other matters he raised in his powerful speech.
The suggestion that has now emerged that the phones of Milly Dowler and some of the victims of the 7 July bombings were hacked into must fill any right-thinking person with revulsion, but I hope the hon. Gentleman will forgive me for the fact that, by virtue of being a Minister of the Crown, I am of necessity rather more circumscribed in what I can say at this Dispatch Box than he is in initiating this debate. I must, of necessity, be quite brief, because many of the issues he raised are of a rather delicate nature in view of the fact that criminal investigations are taking place. I shall come back to that in a moment.
Phone hacking is a serious crime and, as the House will be aware, the courts have previously imposed custodial sentences in two cases where it has occurred. The current police investigation is following further evidence, and the most recent allegations, to which we have referred, are being considered as part of that investigation.
It is precisely because of the gravity of the allegations now being made that the Prime Minister announced only a short time ago that there would be a fully independent public inquiry, or set of inquiries, into these matters, but that must not jeopardise any criminal investigation. It is therefore likely that much of the work of the inquiry will be able to start only once the police investigation and any prosecutions that might result from it are concluded. I say that while being mindful of the comments that have been made in the debate that it may be possible to move forward in some areas but not in others. Nevertheless, the burning desire of many people to see finality in this matter and truth to be revealed may take some time because of that, as I am sure the House will appreciate.
In the meantime, however, the Government will do all they can to progress matters further, such as by consulting on appropriate terms of reference, the composition of an inquiry, and whether there should be one inquiry or more than one. The House must bear in mind the fact that there are some very different issues to be considered here. The hon. Gentleman has raised issues about the conduct of the police, for example, and there are also issues about the conduct of the media. There will therefore doubtless be questions as to whether the consideration of these issues can best be merged into one inquiry or should be addressed separately. I merely highlight that point. There is an intention for there to be proper consultation on how to proceed.
Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
The situation now appears to be that News International is investigating News International and the Metropolitan police are investigating the Metropolitan police. For public confidence, is there not a case to be made for at least some kind of independent supervision, perhaps by a different police force, into the Metropolitan police investigation, so that we can be satisfied that we really are getting to the heart of this matter? I have great confidence in the Met, but they will inevitably know some of the characters involved, so having another police force taking a view would be very helpful.
The Attorney-General
As the right hon. Lady knows, there are mechanisms for inquiries into the conduct of the police to be referred to the Independent Police Complaints Commission and for the IPCC to bring in outside police officers to investigate. As for the News of the World, how it wishes to co-operate with the police in their inquiries is entirely a matter for the News of the World itself. I would not therefore quite join her in saying that the News of the World is investigating itself. My understanding is that the News of the World has appointed independent counsel to try to provide—[Interruption.] No, I am sorry, but what the News of the World chooses to do is a matter for it.
The inquiry that is taking place is a criminal investigation conducted by the police into serious criminal allegations. The question as to how that is responded to by any organisation or individual is a matter for them. I draw neither assurance nor reassurance from the manner in which they choose to do it.
Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)
The Guardian has alleged today that News International knew of the existence of e-mails detailing payments to the police some time ago. If that is the case, will the Attorney-General tell the House whether Mr Coulson was aware of the existence of those e-mails before he resigned as the Prime Minister’s spokesman? If so, did he consult the Prime Minister or any other Minister?
The Attorney-General
May I respectfully say to the hon. Lady that I am not sure that in my capacity as the Queens’s Attorney-General that is a question to which I would necessarily have the immediate answer? What I can say to her is that a series of criminal investigations are taking place, along with wider inquiry, and the Government are committed, as I have just indicated, to there being an inquiry into the matter. I am sorry to disappoint her but, in any event, I do not think that this is a question that I am in a position to answer.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
As a former competition Minister, may I ask the Attorney-General whether, in his view, the Culture Secretary has the power, and always has had the power, to refer the News Corp takeover to the Competition Commission?
The Attorney-General
Well, may I say to the hon. Gentleman that my understanding—I checked this before the start of the debate—is that my right hon. Friend the Culture Secretary did refer the takeover to the Competition Commission?
The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Jeremy Hunt)
I was minded to.
The Attorney-General
He was minded to. As a result of having done so, a series of assurances were provided, which satisfied him. Thereafter, I suggest that the hon. Gentleman refers that question to my right hon. Friend.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
Could the Attorney-General just tell the House from whom those assurances were received?
The Attorney-General
Those assurances were received from News International and were independently validated and referred to Ofcom. May I say to the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) that we have to have a little care here? The process by which such a takeover is done follows what is a quasi-judicial procedure, as he is aware. Therefore, in those circumstances, my right hon. Friend’s options in terms of what he had to do were quite severely circumscribed. If the hon. Gentleman feels that that was not properly conducted, I suggest that he raise that with my right hon. Friend directly.
Mr Straw
Would the Attorney-General not accept that now that the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport is in possession of information relating to the behaviour of News Corp which he could not possibly have been in possession of at the time he made his original decision, it must be open to him, as a matter of law, to reconsider his original decision and make the reference that is now sought?
The Attorney-General
My right hon. Friend is sitting next to me and I am sure he will have noted the comments that the right hon. Gentleman has made. He will therefore be in a position to respond to them, if he so wishes.
Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab)
The right hon. and learned Gentleman said, in the middle of a quasi-judicial process, that the assurances have satisfied the Culture Secretary, so why is he in the middle of a consultation process, where he is not meant to have made his mind up yet and is still meant to be open-minded about whether to refer this to the Competition Commission? If the assurances have satisfied him, the consultation is a mockery.
The Attorney-General
My right hon. Friend said that he was minded to accept the assurances. He is sitting next to me so he is in a position to note the strong views that the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) have expressed, and I have no doubt that there will be opportunities for him to respond in due course.
Nicholas Soames
The Prime Minister made reference, very correctly, in his answers at Prime Minister’s questions this afternoon to due process. It is clear that he was absolutely correct in making that point. Given that there is clear evidence of serious criminality on the part of some people at News International, would not due process also now include, in any event and without necessarily referring this to the Competition Commission, calling a pause pending further evidence?
The Attorney-General
My hon. Friend makes a perfectly reasonable point. I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be in a position to note his comments and reflect carefully on whether the situation has changed in such a fashion. However, I come back to my original point, which was that Ministers of the Crown have to be rather careful about simply changing decisions on the hoof, in view of the fact that they are under legal obligations in respect of the way they take those decisions. With great respect to those who have intervened, whose interventions I am happy to field, the nub of this debate is phone hacking and not, at this stage, the takeover policies of the Government.
Sir Menzies Campbell
I believe that the Attorney-General is right when, as he has done so far, he confines the argument to the question of competition. But do not the Government, as the overall regulating authority, retain a discretion in relation to the management of this industry throughout the United Kingdom? Does not that discretion, for example, allow the Government to give consideration as to whether the directors of any company have been fulfilling their public obligations?
The Attorney-General
I have no doubt at all that my right hon. and learned Friend is correct in what he says, and those are matters that can be borne in mind by the Government in reviewing the process of this takeover bid and, indeed, the competition laws underlying it.
Keith Vaz
On the payment of police, which is now in the public domain as a result of the release of the e-mails last night, have there been any discussions between the Home Secretary and the Metropolitan Police Commissioner about this issue? Is everyone absolutely clear that the payment of police officers is a criminal offence?
The Attorney-General
I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that I think that nobody in this House, or anywhere else, is in any doubt that payments to police officers—unless they are payments made in relation to a police officer who may have some separate employment, as happens sometimes—in respect of their duties from some extraneous source is illegal. I await any Member of this House who might tell me about a circumstance to the contrary but, at the moment, I cannot think of one.
Dr Huppert
It is a pleasure to follow the Chair of the Select Committee on Home Affairs. Does the Attorney-General agree that there are real issues not only about poor behaviour by the media, but about public trust in the police? Does he also agree that we have to be sure that the police will investigate people regardless of how powerful they may be and what the consequences may be, and regardless of whether they have been taking illegal payments from them? That is a serious issue and it does need an inquiry.
The Attorney-General
If that situation were not occurring in this country, the rule of law would be undermined, so I can assure my hon. Friend that if there was any suggestion that differential rules were being applied because some people are powerful and some are weak, that would be a very serious matter.
Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)
Drawing on his legal knowledge, will the Attorney-General confirm that were News International, with its record of the wrongdoing that it has admitted so far, to apply to run a minicab firm in London, it would not receive a licence? If these are not fit and proper people to run a minicab firm, how can they be a fit and proper outfit to take over a monopoly of a whole television channel?
The Attorney-General
As I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will be aware, the question of whether any organisation is a fit and proper person to own a broadcasting licence is a matter for Ofcom, and not the Secretary of State, under section 3 of the Broadcasting Act 1990. Indeed, the Secretary of State would not be allowed to get involved in that matter.
Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)
On the previous occasions these matters were debated in the House, there were many concerns that constitutional issues and issues of privilege arose from the potential hacking of MPs’ telephones. Since that time, the Select Committee on Standards and Privileges has considered this issue and produced its 14th report. In framing the inquiries suggested today, would it be possible to take account of the recommendations of that report, which suggest some ways of clarifying this quite difficult situation?
The Attorney-General
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. I have no doubt that that factor, along with every single representation made by Members of this House on how they think the inquiry or inquiries should be conducted, can be taken into account.
Chris Bryant
The Attorney-General is absolutely right to say that it is not a matter for the Secretary of State but for Ofcom to decide whether somebody is a fit and proper person, but the whole point is that Ofcom can have no chance to do so unless there is a pause in the Secretary of State’s decision. We need a pause so that Ofcom can come to a conclusion at the end of the police investigation.
The Attorney-General
It is a matter that I am very happy to go away and check, but I think the hon. Gentleman might be mistaken. I think that in fact Ofcom could intervene at any stage if it were to conclude that somebody was not a fit and proper person to hold a broadcasting licence. As these matters can be complex and I would not wish in any way to mislead the House, I would be happy to go away and check that point and to write to the hon. Gentleman about it.
Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con)
I can confirm that I spoke to the chief executive of Ofcom yesterday, who told me that Ofcom has the power to intervene at any stage if it determines that somebody is no longer a fit and proper person to own a media organisation.
The Attorney-General
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and that confirms what I already thought. Of course, that will not prevent me from going away and triple-checking the matter before I write to the hon. Member for Rhondda about it.
I am conscious that I ought to make progress and I want to allow time for debate. Because of my rather limited ability to comment on many of the allegations made, I was going to remind the House of some of the history of this matter. The House will be aware that these problems originated in November 2005 when the Metropolitan police were contacted by the royal household with concerns that voicemails relating to members of the royal family had been intercepted—
The Attorney-General
The hon. Gentleman says from a sedentary position that he knows all this. He might know all of it, but it is worth reminding the House of some of the salient facts of the inquiry if we are to have an informed debate. I apologise to him if he feels that it is otiose.
In those circumstances, the arrests of Glenn Mulcaire and Clive Goodman took place in August 2006 for unlawful interception of phone messages. Searching Mulcaire’s business premises, police uncovered further evidence of interception relating to a number of other individuals not related to the royal household. As the hon. Member for Rhondda, if not the House, will be aware, Mulcaire and Goodman pleaded guilty— Goodman only to the charges relating to the royal family and Mulcaire to five further counts relating to individuals in the public eye—and were sentenced in January 2007 to four months and six months in prison respectively. It is worth bearing in mind that although I know of the hon. Gentleman’s interest in the matter, after January 2007 matters remained essentially quiet until July 2009, when the media reported fresh allegations relating to further cases of phone hacking.
The Crown Prosecution Service reviewed the material provided to it by the police in order to satisfy itself that appropriate actions had been taken in respect of the material. The CPS was satisfied that the prosecution approach to charging and prosecution was proper and that it would not be appropriate to reopen the cases against Mr Goodman and Mr Mulcaire. It also concluded that any new information should be reported to the police for further investigation.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
It has been reported in the news this afternoon that the former Director of Public Prosecutions, the noble Lord Macdonald, has been appointed by News International to advise it on its dealings with the police at this time. Does the Attorney-General think that that is appropriate, and has he any thoughts from the Government on that development?
The Attorney-General
As I am not sure that what the right hon. Gentleman says is correct, I am not minded to comment on it. My understanding of the matter was that Lord Macdonald had been appointed by News of the World to help with the disclosure process to the police. That is a matter for Lord Macdonald in accordance with the professional code of conduct of the Bar. [Interruption.] I can assure the House that I do not think the notes I have just received are necessarily of particular help to me in answering the right hon. Gentleman’s question. He raises a perfectly legitimate point, but without knowing—which I do not—the circumstances in which Lord Macdonald might or might not be involved with advising News of the World in this matter, I do not think it is appropriate for me to comment further.
Mr Hanson
Will the Attorney-General give me an assurance that he will look into this matter when he leaves the Chamber today? I, as the then Police Minister, made comments in good faith on 14 July of that year about the DPP’s approach to the case. It is important that there should be clarity on all issues when we consider such matters.
The Attorney-General
I entirely agree with what the right hon. Gentleman says and I am happy to go away and consider it. As I have said, a lawyer’s involvement in any matter must ultimately be reconciled with the professional code of conduct and the question of whether any conflict of interest exists. Beyond that, I shall write to the right hon. Gentleman when I have had an opportunity to consider the matter.
Before we were diverted by the subject of Lord Macdonald, I was mentioning the fact that the media reported fresh allegations in 2009. In November 2010, the Metropolitan police approached the CPS for advice about the prospects of bringing further charges. Owing to the non-co-operation of witnesses and the lack of further evidence, however, criminal charges could not be brought. The Metropolitan police asked the News of the World for any new material in January of this year.
Following developments in the civil courts, the CPS then agreed to review everything the Metropolitan police have in their possession to ascertain whether there was any material that could form evidence in any future criminal prosecution for phone hacking. On 26 January this year, in view of the seriousness of the allegations and the fresh information that had come to light, the Metropolitan police announced a new investigation. That investigation, Operation Weeting, is led by Deputy Assistant Commissioner Sue Akers of the specialist crime directorate, which is an entirely different unit within the Metropolitan police from that which carried out the original investigation in 2006.
The Metropolitan police now have 45 experienced police officers working on the case, which illustrates how seriously they are taking this new investigation. It is precisely because of the new investigation that new information is progressively coming to light that is the subject on which the debate requested by the hon. Member for Rhondda has been based. As the Prime Minister has said, the police must be allowed to pursue their criminal investigation in the most vigorous way they can to get to the truth. I simply say to the House that that is one reason why Ministers will not be making pronouncements in detail on some of the matters that the hon. Member for Rhondda has raised.
It is right to point out, as the hon. Gentleman has done, that quite a large number of inquiries have been taking place. We have a CPS review, we have the police pursuing their investigations, we have had a number of activities by the Select Committee on Standards and Privileges and we have also had work done by the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport. I hope that the House may derive from all that some reassurance that the issues surrounding these allegations are being taken very seriously. I take them very seriously and it is essential that no stone should be left unturned in ensuring that anyone who is guilty of any criminal offence is brought to justice and that the public are provided, at the end of day, with the truth about has happened and about the lessons needed to ensure that there is no repetition in future.
Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)
May I ask the Attorney-General a simple question? Why did it take so long for these issues to be taken seriously?
The Attorney-General
May I make a couple of remarks? This Government have been in office since May 2010 and these matters clearly originated some time prior to that. Moreover, I simply point out that the issues reviving in the way they have date back to just before Christmas. The world is not a perfect place, but I note the rather fair comment that the hon. Member for Rhondda made in opening the debate. The House may need to be judgmental about itself in a number of ways, but I rather doubt that it should be selective in how it passes those judgments. In those circumstances, I am satisfied that the Government have acted properly in the past few months in responding to the way this story has developed. I am also satisfied, and I hope the House is satisfied, that the Prime Minister has responded properly to the latest allegations that have emerged today.
Helen Jones
The Attorney-General is telling the House that we must await the outcome of the inquiries into these allegations, and I absolutely accept that, but if that is the case why are the Government going ahead with allowing News Corp to take over BSkyB when there are allegations of serious wrongdoing and criminality against it? Surely the Government should wait for the outcome of the inquiries before they proceed.
The Attorney-General
At the risk of repeating what I said earlier, the takeover process is a legal one and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport will, I have no doubt, receive legal advice about the proper way to conduct that process. I also have no doubt that he is listening and will listen to the representations being made today and the anxieties being expressed on the matter. Beyond that it would not be proper for me to go.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
The hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) said that Ofcom can intervene at any point with regard to the fit-and-proper-person test, but will the Attorney-General give guidance on whether, in applying that test, Ofcom should take into account the ongoing allegations about phone hacking? If it cannot take those allegations into account, will he give guidance on how it should regard the phone hacking issue?
The Attorney-General
If Ofcom’s role is entirely independent of Government, I do not think I am the person who should provide it with my opinion on the matter, or the notion of independence is going to be rather lost.
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
Will the Attorney-General give way?
Sir Gerald Kaufman
The Attorney-General says that the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport will no doubt receive legal advice, but does he agree that his right hon. Friend is not bound by that legal advice and that as the Secretary of State he has the right, in his quasi-judicial position, to make his own decisions? There is a book about this if the Attorney-General wants to read it.
The Attorney-General
I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is very well advised and will note the right hon. Gentleman’s comments. In order to be equal in my approach, I now give way to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming).
John Hemming
In the interests of preventing this from happening again, I should like to know whether the Attorney-General shares my concern that the editors code contains no demand for people to know the basis on which information that has been bought has been obtained or to ensure that it has not been obtained through criminal acts.
The Attorney-General
The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting point that can no doubt be looked at by editors and by the Press Complaints Commission.
I wish to conclude simply by saying that these allegations are very grave. In my role as Attorney-General, I have the rather curious title of “guardian of the public interest”, and I have absolutely no doubt that the public interest will be served only if these matters are fully inquired into and if those who have committed or are alleged to have committed criminal offences and are seen to have a prima facie case against them are brought to justice. That will require some forbearance on the part of the House in its desire to see a conclusion to this matter and I ask the House to bear that in mind. With that, I simply reiterate my thanks to the hon. Member for Rhondda for the manner in which he presented the debate.
The Attorney-General
I understand the right hon. Lady’s point, but I think she slightly misunderstood the point I was making. I was referring not just to that, but to the Prime Minister’s statement today. There is a full appreciation, which has grown over time, that this is a serious issue—[Interruption.] Steps have been taken to try to deal with it. I have to say to the Leader of the Opposition that if his Government had been troubled when they were in office, they could have taken steps between 2006 and 2010 to do something about this. Throughout my comments today I avoided making any criticism of the way the previous Government acted, and I think his remarks from a sedentary position are entirely uncalled for.
Yvette Cooper
I respect the spirit in which the Attorney-General made his speech, but warn him against any complacency about the number of inquiries solving the issue. The key is whether the overall public inquiry that looks into the matter has sufficient powers and the right remit and can truly get to the heart of what has been happening.