Rape Gangs: National Statutory Inquiry

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd October 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Lochiel (Con)]

My Lords, when updating the other place on the progress of a national inquiry on child grooming gangs on 2 September, the Minister for Safeguarding said:

“Most importantly, the chair must have the credibility and experience to command the confidence of victims and survivors, as well as the wider public. Meaningful engagement with victims and survivors is paramount”.—[Official Report, Commons, 2/9/25; col. 162.]


But four months on from the announcement of this inquiry, there are no terms of reference and no chair, while four of the victims have resigned from the victims and survivors’ panel. How do the Government seriously still believe that this inquiry will have the confidence of the victims, when all evidence points to the contrary?

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Lochiel. First, I say to him that when the Infected Blood Inquiry and the Covid inquiry were established, it took seven months to put a chair in place. We are currently at the very late stages of determining who the chair for this inquiry should be. It is very important, as he has said, that the inquiry, its chair and its terms of reference have the confidence of victims and survivors. I am sorry that a number of victims and survivors have walked away from the process; they will be welcomed back, should they wish to return.

We are working closely with the charity, NWG Network, to ensure that a range of victims put their views to this purpose; they are doing that currently. I believe that we will be in a position shortly to establish the inquiry, with the terms of reference to ensure that we do what we said we were going to do on the tin: to meet the objective that the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, set of a national inquiry, focusing on grooming gangs and on the ethnicity issue. I hope that we will have full support from the noble Lord and his colleagues in doing those important tasks.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, public trust in statutory inquiries is already fragile, and it is weakened by concerns about independence, delay and failure to act on recommendations. Take, for example, the Jay inquiry: it took seven years and reported in October 2022, but only a tiny percentage of its recommendations have so far been implemented.

This inquiry must be led by victims and survivors; their involvement is essential to its integrity and to uncovering the truth. The inquiry must go where the evidence takes it. If there is any suggestion that there were racial and religious dimensions of abuse, and if these are found to be true, then they must not be minimised. Can the Minister give an unequivocal assurance that these issues will be addressed directly and say what steps will be taken to ensure that this inquiry’s recommendations, unlike those of so many before, are fully implemented?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I refer her to the Statement that the Home Secretary made in response to the issues that arose out of yesterday’s Urgent Question in the House of Commons. The Home Secretary said today that the inquiry will

“explicitly examine the ethnicity and religion of the offenders”,

as well examine offenders who have been part of grooming gangs and who are not from a particular ethnic minority; the examination of those issues is also paramount.

The noble Baroness will know that we have set a time limit on the inquiry. We want the inquiry to report speedily, because the important thing is to get recommendations. As the Minister in the Home Office responsible for inquiries, I am very clear that we need to get the inquiry’s results, get the recommendations out and, very importantly, see them through as a matter of some urgency.

[Baroness Sanderson of Welton (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister said that the Government are in the late stages of choosing a chair. If the reports are to be believed—that the two preferred candidates have walked away from the inquiry—it means the Government may yet have some time to go. The position of being in such an inquiry without a chair or a timeline is one I understand only too well. The thing we did was to go back to the beginning and to the victims and survivors to really understand what their concerns were. That was the only way that we could move forward. Will the Government perhaps look again at how they are engaging with victims and survivors given that a lot of them are coming out to say that they have lost trust in the process? In those circumstances, it is very difficult to just say “business as usual”.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Baroness makes a very fair point. The confidence of victims and survivors is central to the effectiveness, quality and outputs of this inquiry. As I mentioned in response to the earlier question from her noble friend on the Front Bench, the Government have engaged NWG, a very respectable charity, to engage with victims and survivors on their behalf, and to give a sounding board to the issues that we are involved in. I regret that people have walked away from that process, but there are many others involved in it, and I want to ensure that they reflect strongly both on the appointment of the chair, on the terms of reference and, ultimately, on the recommendations of the inquiry, which is the most important aspect of this business.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, one reason why the survivors resigned was that there were very different accounts from them and the Minister for Safeguarding. Indeed, the Minister for Safeguarding implied that anyone who was saying different was using misinformation, in effect, accusing those survivors of lying.

In fact, the account from Home Secretary was very different from that of the Minister for Safeguarding. I think we can safely say that this is not being handled well. It is not like other inquiries. The Minister might want to reassure us that the inquiry’s terms of reference will be absolutely watertight, that it will not be frightened of saying that the rape grooming gangs were predominantly Pakistani Muslim, and that those things will be faced head on. At the moment, there is not enough reassurance that that is happening. The Home Secretary reassured me; I am not sure that the Minister for Safeguarding did.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Let me first defend the Minister for Safeguarding. I know nobody else in the House of Commons who has committed so much time, energy and passion to ensuring that these issues are addressed. She is paramount in her ambition to secure some outcomes on safeguarding women and girls and on violence against women and girls. As I have said to other noble Lords and noble Baronesses today, the Home Secretary has been clear that the terms of reference will be determined and that the focus will be on grooming gangs and on ethnicity and background. That also means that we need to look at grooming gangs in the round, but there is a real focus on the ethnicity and background of a number of grooming gangs that have operated, which have caused distress and have led to this inquiry in the first place.

[Lord Pickles (Con)]

My Lords, when I was Secretary of State, I asked the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, to look at Rochdale. I know the kind of pressure that is placed on a politician when you take that kind of decision, so I am much more sympathetic to the Government. I do not think that this should be political. We are going to uncover some very unpleasant truths about how the establishment in this country looked the other way, so can I ask the Minister to give lots of consideration to the recommendation of the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, that this should not be judge led? The nature of a public inquiry, led by a judge, will be overly daunting. We need the confidence of the victims, the confidence of the community and the confidence of the country.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful for the noble Lord’s support in this area. He is right to draw attention to the fact that the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, recommended that we should try to move away from the judge-led model for this inquiry. That is what we have been trying to do. The very difficult issues that we have been discussing with victims and survivors—of who should be the chair and how the chair should be appointed—are one reason why there has been the delay to date and the very reason that the noble Baroness mentioned. As I said, the Covid inquiry and the Infected Blood Inquiry took seven months to get to a chair. It has been around three and a half to four months since the inquiry was announced. I hope we can make the appointment shortly, along the lines that the noble Lord mentioned.

[The Lord Bishop of Leicester]

My Lords, the Church of England has in recent years been forced to face up to our own, significant failures in the areas of safeguarding of children and vulnerable adults. We were far too slow to realise the devastating impact of safeguarding when it goes wrong, and we are even now struggling to put in place appropriate ways of ensuring accountability and of being led by survivors. Can the Minister therefore tell me what the Government are doing to support all faith communities in addressing safeguarding, to go beyond simply the requirements of the Charity Commission and to show that no group is above the law when it comes to safeguarding?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

No group is above the law, and this inquiry has been established for the purposes of examining the challenges that arose in certain communities with regard to child sexual abuse and grooming gangs. I hope the right reverend Prelate will recognise that, for example, in the Crime and Policing Bill—which had its Second Reading last Thursday—there are significant measures to improve safeguarding and reporting measures and to meet the outcome of the Alexis Jay report to government, ensuring that we put in place a range of measures to protect victims, wherever they come from, whether from a faith community or not. I hope the right reverend Prelate can work with the Government during the passage of that Bill to give early implementation to strong safeguarding measures to protect children and ensure that we do not have future victims of these terrible incidents.

Deprivation of Citizenship Orders (Effect during Appeal) Bill

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Report stage & Committee stage
Tuesday 21st October 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, we on these Benches also approve of the amendment. This is a very narrow Bill, with an even narrower amendment. I do not intend to repeat everything I said about children at Second Reading, but we are absolutely clear that, without a measure of comfort, the Bill will have consequences for a very limited number of children and will reverse the protection that has been offered to them under the Supreme Court case of N3(ZA) v the Secretary of State for the Home Department.

As the noble Lord, Lord Verdirame, said, we are discussing the limbo status of some children in this situation. A child whose parent’s citizenship deprivation was ruled unlawful by a court could have their citizenship status left in limbo until their parent’s final appeal is determined. We had a debate at Second Reading about how long that period would be. There were some views that the justice system was so quick that it might flash through in a number of weeks, but others suggested that it could take a number of months or even longer. During an extended period of uncertainty, the child could be exposed to serious harm or death, without the ability to enter the UK and reach safety or to obtain consular assistance.

As I explained at Second Reading, this is not a hypothetical matter. There are, and have been, cases where the situation has arisen. It may involve a small number of people—a small number of children—but we cannot be certain that those children will not face such risks in the future. This amendment would therefore provide a minimum safeguard to prevent the most serious consequences for the children who might be caught by the Bill, and who are obviously the most vulnerable British children. It would ensure that the best interests of the child are prioritised and that the effects of the Bill do not unjustly threaten the lives and rights of British children.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Verdirame, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for tabling the amendment and for their contributions to today’s debate. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Jay, who has previously raised this issue with me in private meetings. I was pleased to meet the noble Lord and the noble Baroness who tabled the amendment to discuss their concerns privately; it is an important issue that I hope I can address today. I am also grateful for the support of my noble friend Lady Lister; as the regular recipient of terrier activity on my legs, I appreciate her persistence in these matters.

I want to be clear—this is an important point that the noble Lord, Lord Verdirame, made in his introductory remarks—that where a child already holds British citizenship, the subsequent deprivation of a parent’s citizenship does not change that. I know that that was a concern held by the noble Lord, Lord Jay, but that is a given. As the noble Lord, Lord Verdirame, said in his introductory remarks, we would need to make changes to sections of the British Nationality Act 1981 that relate to the acquisition of nationality in order for the amendment to have its desired effect. Whether or not we want to make those changes, they would be out of the Bill’s scope, so I am unable to agree to them today.

In any case, the amendment could not be limited to cases where the parent’s appeal is ultimately successful and their citizenship reinstated. The amendment would apply to cases where a higher court upholds the Home Secretary’s decision. In my view, that would undermine the integrity of the immigration and nationality system and could give rise to cases where a child is temporarily a British citizen, only to lose that status through no fault of their own. If their entitlement to another nationality were to be removed because another country had laws that prohibited dual citizenship, there is also a risk the child could be left stateless.

In accordance with the duty under Section 55 of the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009, consideration of a child’s best interests is a primary consideration in the immigration and nationality decisions that affect them. Considering the representations I have had from the noble Lord and the noble Baroness in our private discussions, I say to them that the Government will monitor the impact of the Bill, including the impact on children, during the course of its implementation downstream. If there are lessons to be drawn from that, obviously we will do so.

As I mentioned during the Bill’s Second Reading last week, the Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration, under the UK Borders Act 2007, can assess the efficiency and effectiveness of the migration and borders system, which includes the deprivation power. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord German, on the Liberal Democrat Front Bench, I say that, if there were a challenge in expediting appeals or an issue with children being impacted, I have no doubt—without wishing to assess the independent inspector’s programme for him—that the inspector would examine those matters. The UK Borders Act 2007 empowers the inspector to define their own inspection programme, something that the departing inspector, David Bolt, refers to in his most recent annual report as

“the cornerstone of the role’s independence”.

I have no doubt that, in the event of challenges appearing—and with representations from noble Lords, Members of Parliament or voluntary organisations—that could well be an area where the inspector focuses their attention.

I thank the noble Lord and noble Baroness for prompting this worthwhile debate. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, has not spoken today, but I believe that he broadly supports the position that I take on this matter. I trust that, for the reasons I have set out, the Members who tabled the amendment understand why the Government cannot support it. I therefore respectfully ask that it be withdrawn.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

I am not seeking to challenge the Minister on this, but his statement that changing the 1981 Act would be outside the scope of this Bill is surprising. I am sure that he would not want to send people down into culs-de-sac chasing that claim. It might therefore be helpful if he could make it clear that the technical issue is not what underlies the Government’s opposition to our amendment, so that people understand that this is a policy matter, not a technical matter.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I place that in the mix because it is outside the scope the Bill. I affirm, as I hope I have already done, that the Government’s policy position is that this would be unworkable and would lead to potential areas of risk. Having said that, as I said to the noble Lord in response to his introductory comments, we will keep this under review and monitor it. If issues arise, they will no doubt be drawn to the Government’s attention, the borders inspector can examine them and, indeed, the Government can reflect upon them. On policy grounds, I still urge that the amendment be withdrawn.

[Lord Verdirame (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I am grateful to everyone who has spoken. I know there is considerable concern around the House, beyond the noble Lords and Baronesses who have spoken today, about this issue.

I will make three brief points. The first is to echo the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, made. I, too, was surprised to hear that the consequential amendment to Section 2(1)(a) might be out of scope. This is a Bill to make provision about the effect during an appeal of an order under Section 40 of the British Nationality Act. Within that that theme—that umbrella of effect—in my view, it would be entirely possible to have a consequential amendment to Section 2(1)(a) concerning the acquisition of citizenship during the appeal period by children.

The second point concerns the extended period of uncertainty that the Minister referred to. There is another way of looking at this. If the Government are ultimately unsuccessful in the litigation, we will be faced with an unknown number of individuals who are now children but who will, at that point, be young teenagers, coming back to this country. In some cases, they will be returning to this country having spent many formative years in prisons or camps in north-east Syria and elsewhere. So, even from a national security point of view, we may end up in a rather challenging position.

Finally, I thank the Minister for his comment on the impact and on the Government’s commitment to keep implementation of the Bill under review. We will, I hope, have an opportunity to return to the question of implementation, to the position of children affected by the deprivation of citizenship and, more generally, to the Government’s policy on the deprivation of citizenship. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Deprivation of Citizenship Orders (Effect during Appeal) Bill

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

3rd reading
Tuesday 21st October 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hanson of Flint]

That the Bill do now pass.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

My Lords, in moving that the Bill be read a third time, I just say on behalf of the whole House that the safety and security of those in the UK is the Government’s highest priority. Deprivation is an important and effective tool.

I want to thank all noble Lords who have contributed to the debates on the Bill today, and I particularly thank the security and intelligence services, law enforcement and others who work day in, day out to protect this country. I thank my colleague, Minister Dan Jarvis, my colleague in the Whips’ Office, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen of Elie, the noble Lords, Lord Davies of Gower and Lord German, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and indeed all those Members who have tabled and spoken to amendments. It is important to put on record that the policy, legal and bill teams in the Home Office have worked tirelessly to make the Bill possible, as have the team in the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel. I thank them and the staff of this House, as ever, for their professionalism in helping us get the Bill through both Houses of Parliament. I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.

Bill passed.

Alleged Spying Case: Home Office Involvement

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Tuesday 21st October 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

My Lords, in response to this Urgent Question in the other place, the Security Minister appeared to do little more than try to shift the blame to the previous Government. He did not answer the question from my right honourable friend the shadow Home Secretary, so I would like to put that question to the Minister here. I would be grateful if he could answer the question without his colleague’s obfuscation. The question quite simply is: when did the Home Secretary become aware of the impending collapse of the case? Also, given that the CPS has said it was given insufficient evidence, did the Home Secretary take steps to provide further evidence?

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question. As he knows, the Security Minister made it clear last week, on 15 October, in Parliament that Ministers were informed after the DPP had made his decision and shortly before reporting restrictions were lifted. He came to the House straightaway to make a statement; self-evidently, I hope that answers the noble Lord’s point.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, yesterday my noble friend Lady Tyler of Enfield asked about the personal safety of parliamentarians and campaigners, and their families, whose detailed information has been handed to China’s centre of power. In her answer, the noble Baroness, Lady Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent, acknowledged a duty of care and said:

“I know that direct conversations have happened”.—[Official Report, 20/10/25; col. 486.]


However, I know for a fact that for at least one very prominent human rights campaigner there have been no such conversations at all along these grounds. Given that he was left out, I worry about others. Can the Minister confirm that it is his department that is accountable for protecting people whose information has been leaked in this way? Whatever that answer is, can he undertake that the Government will absolutely ensure that these people are properly protected?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I certainly give the noble Lord the assurance that this department takes extremely seriously the security of individuals whose personal circumstances have been brought into the public domain in a way which puts them under potential threat from any hostile force at all. I will certainly also take his comments back, and if he wishes to supply privately to me the name of any individual who he believes to be under threat, we will examine their individual circumstances. I hope that gives a reassurance to the noble Lord.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, in the Commons yesterday the issue of the influence of China in general was raised. Can the noble Lord please explain this to us? We have heard the Prime Minister being taped saying that he would call in the embassy application, which he did. Then, according to a senior Chinese official, he said that he invited Britain to

“fulfil its obligations and honour its commitments”.

What are these commitments?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord will clearly know that, self-evidently, certain threats are provided by the Chinese Government. Those threats are well known, well understood and well assessed by the Home Office and other government departments. But China also remains one of the largest economies in the world, and we import and export and deal with China on a number of issues.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

That is not what I asked.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am giving the noble Lord the answer that I will give him to whatever he has asked. I say to him now that we recognise there are certain threats in China, and certain issues with the Chinese Government that we need to address, but we also recognise that China is a major trading partner that we need to work with.

The Home Secretary and the Foreign Secretary have submitted evidence from their perspective about the nature of the embassy. A planning application is being undertaken, which will be considered in due course, following a report by the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government. That is the right and proper way to undertake that instance. The Prime Minister is cognisant of the fact that there are opportunities with China, but there are also threats. That is why we have to keep all these matters under constant review. That answer may not satisfy the noble Lord but it is the answer I have given him.

[Lord Beamish (Lab)]

My Lords, as chair of the Intelligence and Security Committee, and on its behalf, I thank the agencies for their very detailed briefing last week on the intelligence behind this incident. We have now decided to have an investigation into the intelligence part of this incident. As a former member of the committee, the Minister knows that we have statutory powers to call that evidence, but could he assure the committee that the Government will fully co-operate with those investigations?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I welcome the fact that the Intelligence and Security Committee is undertaking its statutory duties to look at these issues. Of course the Government will co-operate fully with the Intelligence and Security Committee and give information on whatever issues are requested.

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

My Lords, the problem for the Government is not the collapse of the spy trial, embarrassing though that may be, but the fact that this story keeps dribbling on from day to day and the Government do not seem to be able to get off the hook.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord. It dribbles on from day to day because Members continue to ask similar questions to those being covered, which they are entirely within their rights to do. He will know that the trial collapsed because the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Crown Prosecution Service deemed that the evidence they had was not sufficient to secure a conviction. That was their decision, made independently of the Government. They made that decision, and that is why the trial has collapsed. Members of both Houses seek to press the Government still further on a range of issues around that, which is their absolute right, but the basic facts are that that is what happened.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, I am one of many Members of the House who is finding it difficult to understand the reasoning of the Director of Public Prosecutions as to why the evidence was insufficient to take this matter to a jury. The DPP is, of course, supervised by the Attorney-General. The noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General is a Member of this House. It would be very helpful to know whether the Attorney-General agrees with the assessment made by the Director of Public Prosecutions.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I can say to the noble Lord that the Government are extremely disappointed in the outcome of the event not going to trial, but that is not a matter for the Government or the Attorney-General. The independence of the Crown Prosecution Service and the DPP is central. They have taken that decision. I and the Government find it very frustrating, but that is the decision that has been taken. If the noble Lord had expected me or any other Minister to interfere in that decision, we would certainly be quite rightly roasted in this House for interfering with judicial independence.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, the reason why the Minister may be a little frustrated that Members of the other place and this House keep asking questions is because he does not give straightforward answers. Let me try to ask again the question that my noble friend on the Front Bench asked: was the Home Secretary aware of the impending collapse of the case before it was made public, and did she or any official or special adviser acting on her behalf take any steps to inquire about whether the Government could strengthen the evidence that was with the Director of Public Prosecutions? It was asked five times yesterday and the Minister answering did not give a clear answer. Can this Minister do better?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I will always try to give this House a straight answer. Let me give the noble Lord a straight answer. On 14 August this year—the final date for the evidence to be submitted—the evidence was submitted to the CPS by the Director of Public Prosecutions. The current Home Secretary did not take office until after that date and the previous Home Secretary had not seen the evidence. No Minister or special adviser interfered in the decision that was taken by the CPS.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

That is not the question I asked.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord said that it is not the question he asked. I am giving him a response on behalf of the Government that the information supplied on 14 August was the case information. The current Home Secretary, her spads and us Ministers have not interfered with anything to do with that decision. When we learned about that decision we came to inform this House, as my honourable friend did in another place.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, I will ask a question to which I hope the Minister can give me a straight answer. Much has been said in this House, in the other place and in the media, and there has been much speculation. Will he take this opportunity to assert unequivocally that the two men who were charged, and against whom the proceedings were dropped, enjoy and continue to enjoy a presumption of innocence?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Yes. They have not been charged with or convicted of any offence; therefore, as far as the law is concerned, they are not guilty of any offence. That is the self-evident state of play at the moment. That does not hide the fact that the Government are extremely disappointed that the matter did not go to trial, but that was a matter and a decision for the CPS and the DPP.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, the Government keep saying, and the Minister has reiterated today, “What can we do? We’re as frustrated as everyone else”. From the point of view of the British public, we have allegations of spying on elected MPs and a Government who basically say, “What can we do about the fact that we can’t do anything?” Does the Minister understand that this feels like an impotent response, which is either a cover-up, if you are conspiratorial, or, at best, saying to the British public: “What can we do? Not our fault, guv”. It is frustrating and demoralising, and makes it seem as though the Government have no power or will to resolve this.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The Government are not saying that there is nothing we can do; we will robustly defend the rights of parliamentarians to be free of spying influence, and robustly defend and work with the intelligence services to ensure that we disrupt and destroy spying efforts on United Kingdom agencies, businesses and parliamentarians. But this case, which would have been brought had the evidence been brought by the CPS, is now gone, as it collapsed due to the decision not to take it forward. I find that decision frustrating, but it does not stop the Government doing their best to ensure that we protect our citizens against malign foreign influence.

Police: Vetting, Training and Discipline

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Thursday 16th October 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chakrabarti]

To ask His Majesty’s Government, following the BBC Panorama documentary Undercover in the Police, what plans they have to change law or practice regarding police vetting, training or discipline.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

The scenes in the documentary were simply unacceptable and deeply concerning. The Home Office supports the commissioner’s drive to root out those unfit to serve the public. The Government must improve standards nationally. That is why, earlier this year, the Government made changes to discipline and vetting, and we are intending to introduce further measures later this year to strengthen suspension arrangements and to put police vetting standards on a more robust legislative footing.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

I am grateful, as always, to my noble friend the Minister. I gave him advance notice of a case of a 68 year-old man convicted in Guildford Crown Court just last week of a string of pretty horrific paedophile offences. During the trial, it emerged that he had served as a police CHIS spy for many years in the environmental movement. Of course, we subsequently legislated under the last Government to give advance criminal immunities to such people. Is it time to look again at whether the system is robust enough to protect in that necessarily shadowy area of police practice?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for drawing attention to the conviction last week. Quite simply, it is unacceptable that individuals are involved in that type of behaviour while serving as police officers, undercover or not. She will be aware that there is a long-standing undercover policing inquiry, which is examining issues and will report to the Government as soon as practicable. I am expecting to be able to respond to those recommendations once they are produced.

In the meantime, and this is the important point for the House as a whole, the Government have improved vetting and are committed to strengthening police vetting. The measures that we have brought forward this year and also in the Crime and Policing Bill, which coincidentally is before the House today, are ones which will strengthen to ensure that we root out individuals who are not suitable to hold the badge of honour of a police officer in the United Kingdom.

[Lord Bird (CB)]

My Lords, is it not possible to accept that what we have got is a situation, which nobody seems to want to address, where we have a class divide in the police force? We have a situation where people from the working classes join the police force and, unless we move around and start bringing in more middle-class people, we are always going to be running into problems caused by the class division of the police force. I have noticed this over many years.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

As somebody from proud working-class stock, I do not accept that individuals who are from working-class stock are more substantially susceptible to committing offences and not being good police officers. I do not know whether that was what the noble Lord intended in his comments, but I will robustly defend police recruiting from all sides of the community, and social mobility, so that people who join the force as working-class officers can one day end up as chief constable. We will ensure that we have proper vetting in place to ensure that people are tested and supported. Ultimately, we have to have a police force that reflects the whole community. That means one that holds proper standards and I commit that to the House.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

My Lords, while vetting and training are clearly important, perhaps more important is the authority and supervision of those who are in control and authority over a station, unit or wider area.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Viscount is absolutely right. It is very important that we have training and professionalism of those who are in a position of influence and power in smaller units within the police force. Obviously, the particular case in front of us related to one particular police station in central London, and the undercover reporter revisited that police station to find that there was not an improvement in behaviour. Ten officers have been referred to the IOPC. Their behaviour is on camera but, self-evidently, local leadership should have spotted those issues in the first instance. That is something that the Metropolitan Police itself will be reviewing in its review once the IOPC has determined what action should be taken against the officers in question.

[Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon (Lab)]

My Lords, what we saw on our TV some weeks ago just goes to show that, since the Macpherson report came out, talking about institutional racism, nothing much has changed. We have talked about it over the past 30 years, but we are still talking about the same thing now. When are we going to find that police officers begin to respect the community that they are policing, and the community has respect for them? Unless we do something within government, nothing is going to change. What has the Minister to say about that?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend, and she knows more than anybody else in this House how important it is that the police have the confidence of the community and that the community has confidence in policing. It is essential for public confidence that strict standards are upheld. I reassure my noble friend that we have taken action in the past 12 months to include new vetting standards, but, if she looks at the proposals for legislation in the next 12 months, she will see that that will put in place a range of measures to ensure that incidents to do with misogyny, racial hatred, sexual orientation and other transgressions by officers are dealt with speedily and effectively by the police. It goes back to a range of issues, but I hope that, this time next year, I will be able to give my noble friend greater confidence that the police have competence to deal with these issues.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

If the noble Baroness will allow me, I will look at the points that she has raised. It is an important issue. I happen to think that it is important that there is an inspection regime of police custody. She has raised some particular concerns today. I will reflect on those and discuss them with my colleague the police Minister and respond to her in due course.

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

My Lords, I was about to say that I share the sentiments being expressed here today. The issue, I feel, is one not of legal adequacy but of management oversight, training methods, accountability and, indeed, discipline. Speaking as somebody who spent over 30 years in a once very disciplined organisation, I ask the Minister whether he shares my disappointment that there is little evidence of progress being made in recent years in these areas, particularly within the Metropolitan Police? What further action is the Home Office taking to ensure that senior officers, from the very top down, are effectively holding their officers to account, and to improve public confidence in the police?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord raises a very important point. Going back to the question from the noble Viscount, leadership—understanding performance and showing leadership—is extremely critical. The Home Office is this year funding the College of Policing to look at ongoing support for police leadership, and we have given £2.6 million this year to do that. We have also set, and are examining still with the College of Policing and with the National Police Chiefs’ Council, national leadership standards. We will continue to work with the college to ensure that we improve standards of police training. That goes from chief constables down and I certainly endorse the comments that the noble Lord made.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, first, the noble Lord, Lord Bird, made an interesting point and, although I support the Minister’s response about class, to get more people from different classes to aspire to be police leaders would be helpful, because that is not often the answer we receive from children and other people in the working-class group. Some appalling behaviour was seen. In the review that has been suggested, one of the important things is, obviously, to get rid of these people as quickly as possible, which the commissioner has said that he wants to do. Would the review please take seriously the option of changing from a constable status to that of an employee? Police employment regulations, which are secondary legislation, frankly delay everything and put lawyers into the system, which slows it down, and then they still have an opportunity to access an employment tribunal, should they be able to allege improper prejudice. Will the Minister please take seriously the option of having employee status, as they do in New Zealand?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

That is an interesting suggestion from the noble Lord, who has great experience in this field, given his previous role as Metropolitan Police Commissioner. I can assure him that the 10 officers involved in this incident are having an expedited hearing. I think the evidence is very strong. I cannot determine the outcome: that is for the IOPC. Ultimately, I will examine his suggestion again. I think the key thing is that, if incidents such as this occur, they are expedited as quickly as possible and lessons are learned, but also that strong messages are sent that the type of behaviour in the “Panorama” exposé is simply not acceptable in the 21st century from any police officer.

Crime and Policing Bill

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

2nd reading
Thursday 16th October 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the almost 70 speakers in today’s debate. I start by declaring an interest on my own behalf. I am a member of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, and have been for 46 years. That will obviously have an impact on my view of the measures on shop theft and assaults on shop workers.

I am pleased tonight to have the broad support of HM Opposition and, indeed, the broad support of the Liberal Democrat Benches—with some caveats from both. I look forward to the noble and learned Lord’s amendments in Committee. I cannot give him a response tonight on those details, but we will have plenty of time to discuss that. In saying that, I note that the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, the noble Baronesses, Lady Browning and Lady Fox of Buckley, and others mentioned the length of time for debate and the size of the Bill. Indeed, so did my noble friend Lord Hacking. We will have time for that, and it will be discussed through the usual channels. I look forward to a full and frank debate on this matter in due course.

The Bill deals with a number of key issues, and Members have talked about a theme in it. There are several themes in this Bill: making our communities safe, strengthening child sexual abuse prevention, tackling anti-social behaviour and knife crime and, dare I say it, supporting free speech—while at the same time ensuring that we have some measures on protests. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, the noble Lords, Lord Frost and Lord Vaizey, and indeed my noble friend Lord Hacking said that there is a mixture in this Bill, that it does not have a theme and that it is very large. It is a government programme, much of it based on a manifesto commitment. As my noble friend Lady Levitt mentioned in her excellent maiden speech from this Front Bench on a Second Reading debate, it is a manifesto commitment from the Government to do most of the things in this Bill, and therefore we are going to do most of the things in it, with the support of this House and the House of Commons.

A lot of issues in the debate have been about legislative proposals, certainly, but we have touched on neighbourhood policing, courts, speeding, police presence, speeding up justice, police numbers, et cetera. My noble friend Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate mentioned that. The noble Viscount, Lord Goschen, and the noble Lord, Lord Sandhurst, talked about delivery, which is extremely important. Those things are not in the Bill, but they are extremely important matters that are before us today.

I shall concentrate, if I may, on what is actually in the Bill and the points that have been debated by noble Lords today. Let me start with respect orders and youth diversion orders, which were raised by the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, the noble Lords, Lord Davies of Gower and Lord Anderson of Ipswich, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. Respect orders are a substantial new power that gives police and authorities effective levers to deal with anti-social behaviour. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, made some criticism of them and I know that the noble Lord, Lord Marks, challenges them as well. We believe them to be an effective tool, and we will have a chance to debate that in due course in Committee.

Youth diversion orders are an important measure. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, that we will come back to them, but they are designed to help prevent terrorism and prevent people drifting into terrorism.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Doocey, Lady Stowell, Lady Hazarika and Lady Neville-Rolfe, and the noble Lords, Lord Herbert, Lord Sandhurst and Lord Davies of Gower, all raised the issue of shop theft. Shop theft is extremely important, and something we should not tolerate. That is why we are removing the £200 threshold, are putting a focus on it with policing and have encouraged police forces to tackle it. The measures that we are removing will send a signal. It is still for judicial discretion, but it will send a very strong signal—as will, on the issue of mobile phone theft, giving tracking powers for officers to be able to visit a premise straightaway. I look forward to debating them, but it is important to take action.

The issue closest to my heart in this Bill is that of retail workers and attacks on retail workers. The noble Baronesses, Lady Stowell, Lady Doocey, Lady Thornton, Lady Browning and Lady Fox, and my noble friend Lord Hannett of Everton contributed to this debate. This is a long-standing campaign, which is why I declare my membership of USDAW. When in the House of Commons I moved amendments on this issue over many years, and I appreciate very much the support of my noble friend Lord Hannett of Everton and the members of USDAW, along with the businesses—the Co-op, Tesco, Sainsbury’s and others—that have raised this issue. The new offence will put in place an obligation to ensure that those who uphold the law—which is what colleagues do in shops on solvent abuse, cigarette sales and alcohol—are also protected by the law. I hope that will have good support.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

Before the Minister moves on, will he respond to my question? Why have the Government decided to legislate only for that group of workers?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The argument I will put to the noble Baroness now is that shop workers are upholding the law on solvent abuse, alcohol, cigarette sales and other things. There will be representations on other areas, and we will examine those representations, but I really want to get this over the line after a long campaign. I hope that the noble Baroness will support those measures, whatever amendments she may bring forward.

There has been considerable debate around civil liberties from the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, Lady Chakrabarti, Lady Doocey and Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby, the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger, my noble friend Lord Cashman and others. We are making some changes, and we will bring some further changes forward, but the principle of this is that we are trying to ensure that we have freedom of speech and the right to protest, but that we also have the right to ensure that protest is managed in an effective way. There are responsibilities in protest as well as the right to protest.

We have looked at the question of the Vagrancy Act; the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower, mentioned that in particular. The Government have been clear that no one should be criminalised, which is why we are repealing the outdated 1824 Act. We are committed to a repeal of the Vagrancy Act once a replacement can be determined. I hope that clarifies that for him.

The noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, among many other issues that I will come back to in a moment, raised the issue of policing and suicide. We are working closely with the National Police Wellbeing Service to examine that.

There has been a major debate from noble Lords and noble Baronesses on the question of child exploitation, child sexual abuse and the IICSA implementation. The noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson, Lady Hamwee, Lady Royall, Lady Benjamin, Lady Kidron, Lady Cash and Lady Finlay of Llandaff, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby, the noble Lords, Lord Hampton and Lord Faulks, the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, and others all raised and discussed that issue. We are going to have a big debate on this. We are trying to meet the IICSA recommendations. The Private Member’s Bill from the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, stretches us a bit further. We will have a discussion around that. I hope that this Bill, at the end of its process in this House, will have achieved an improvement in child protection services as a whole.

We have also had a discussion around the big issue of abortion, raised by many Members: the noble Baronesses, Lady Spielman, Lady O’Loan, Lady Coffey, Lady Mattinson, Lady Hazarika, Lady Thornton, Lady Lawlor and Lady Monckton, the noble Lords, Lord Elliott of Mickle Fell, Lord Jackson, Lord Frost, Lord Farmer and Lord Hampton, and the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham. There are different pressures on that: some want that provision taken out and some want it maintained. The Government will remain neutral on this matter and facilitate whatever Parliament agrees and settles on in the end. We will look at those issues, and the Government will have a free vote on that matter as a whole.

The issue of police misconduct and police vetting was raised very strongly by my noble friend Lady Lawrence, the noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie, and others, particularly in the light of the “Panorama” investigation we touched on in Question Time today. There are a number of measures in the Bill to support strengthening police vetting, and I very much welcome those and hope they will be looked at positively in the future.

Knife crime was mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Hampton, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Birt, and my noble friend Lady Lawrence. Again, the measures in the Bill are designed to regulate the supply of knives by people who wish to use those knives in a way that is not conducive to good behaviour and that causes death, misery and injury. We have to take those actions, and I think it is important that we do so.

There has been a lot of discussion around the issue of hate crime. First of all, I want to touch on the issue raised by my noble friends Lady Donaghy and Lord Cashman and the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton and Lady Hunt of Bethnal Green: the aggravated offence. It was a Labour manifesto commitment at the general election. We are carefully considering now how best to amend the law to ensure the protected characteristics have that fairness. We will set out our conclusions later, during the passage of the Bill, but that commitment has been given and we will examine that in due course.

That leads me on to the question, a live issue for noble Lords, of non-crime hate incidents. The noble Lord, Lord Herbert, indicated very strongly what has happened in relation to the National Police Chiefs’ Council, and I am grateful to him for his support in giving the review on this matter. We have recently had discussions from the noble Lord, Lord Frost, and others in the House, including the noble Lord, Lord Young, about this matter, and we are going to have a debate about it, but I am hoping that the review that the noble Lord, Lord Herbert, has instigated will help colour whatever amendments are brought forward. The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, mentioned it as well. It is important that we have that debate and discussion, but I want it to be influenced by the review from the National Police Chiefs’ Council, if noble Lords think that is appropriate.

A number of noble Lords mentioned the pornography review, and I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Bertin, in particular for the work she has done on that. The noble Baronesses, Lady Owen of Alderley Edge, Lady Shawcross-Wolfson, Lady Kidron and Lady Sugg, the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, and my noble friend Lady Donaghy all made contributions today on the pornography review. We are committed to taking any necessary action following consideration of the noble Baroness’s recommendations. We have committed to criminalising pornography that depicts acts of strangulation and suffocation in this Bill, and we will bring forward an amendment to that effect. Where we can, in relation to the recommendations of the noble Baroness’s report, we will take early action to undertake that as a whole.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, mentioned honour-based abuse, and I am grateful to her—I was looking for her, and she was there when we started but has now moved over there. She called for a statutory definition of so-called honour-based abuse, supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Cash. We will work closely with the honour-based abuse sector to develop that statutory definition. We have given that commitment. I agree that it is vital that all professionals with safeguarding responsibilities have the right framework to identify victims and perpetrators, and I will be looking at that during the passage of this Bill.

The noble Baroness, Lady Owen of Alderley Edge, mentioned spiking. It is an important measure and, again, I will reflect on the points she made in this discussion.

I was pleased by the welcome from the noble Lord, Lord McColl of Dulwich, for the measures on cuckolding—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Cuckooing, not cuckolding. Sorry, it has been a long day in the Chamber today—apart from a very quick 20-second call of nature, I have been in for the whole day. I am grateful for the noble Lord’s support for that measure as a whole.

We have also had a range of new ideas for the Bill, and I look forward—honestly—to developing and arguing and having a discussion around the amendments during the passage of the Bill.

I am happy to meet any Members, if I can, who are going to raise those issues. I have firearms and cycling from the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe. Historical weapons were raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, and I know that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, takes an interest in that. I have had measures on child abuse from the noble Baroness, Lady Hazarika, and the noble Lord, Lord Faulks. I have transport issues from the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, deceased children from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the chatbot issues. I have new proposals on cyber-digital from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, The noble Lord, Lord Walney, raised a number of issues to do with the terrorism review.

I have universal jurisdiction from my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws. I have the cumulative impact issues from the noble Lord, Lord Walney. I have facial recognition from the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger. I have vehicle non-compliance from the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. I have fraud from the noble Lords, Lord Cromwell and Lord Birt, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Doocey and Lady Coffey. On all those things, I am happy to meet and discuss. Let us look at what is tabled, let us look at what is put down, and the Government will reflect on it. We may disagree at the end, but let us have that discussion as a whole.

On the fraud issue, from the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, in particular, I am the Government’s first Fraud Minister—Anti-Fraud Minister, really, but is called Fraud Minister for the purposes of the discussion here today. I have a challenge from the Government to produce a new fraud strategy. We are in the process of working on that. By January or February of next year, there will be a three-year fraud strategy, which will cover some of the points that the noble Lords, Lord Cromwell and Lord Birt, and others mentioned.

I know that facial recognition issues are important to the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lady Doocey, and the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger, and I want to ensure that we examine those.

The noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, the noble Baroness, Lady Royall of Blaisdon, and others made representations about the stalking measures in the Bill. I hope they will welcome those, but we will have a debate around that in due course.

My noble friend Lady Whitaker argued for the repeal of the provisions on encampments in Part 4 of the Police Act. We are aware of the High Court ruling and of the points made there. We will consider how best to respond in due course and will do so.

The noble Lord, Lord Farmer, again mentioned the recording of offences of intimate images. I am not sure we are going to agree on some of these issues, but at least I look forward to the amendments in due course if they are brought forward.

I also note the points from the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, which I will reflect on and look at in due course.

This is indeed a very large Bill. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, mentioned the Equipment Theft (Prevention) Act and the implementation of that for farmers. We are looking now at when we can implement that and trying to bring the necessary regulations later this year—so I can give him the answer and support on that.

Although it is very rushed, I think I have covered every point raised by every Member who has spoken in the debate today. I may not have satisfied every Member, but I hope I have recognised that—

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

Can I make the briefest of interruptions? That is a terrific to-do list and I congratulate the Minister on a spectacular summation. The one thing that has not really been touched on, which I think almost all of us spoke about, is resources. How are we going to pay for it?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Again, the Bill covers a range of legislative options on a range of matters. In parallel to that, there are two other aspects of work. We will produce a policing White Paper very shortly, which will look at some of the issues in policing and how we can improve efficiencies. With the National Police Chiefs’ Council and colleagues and police and crime commissioners, we will look at how we can get better value and better focus on the key policing issues that Members have talked about today.

The very point that the noble Viscount, Lord Goschen, and others have mentioned—about delivery, about use of resources, about focus and about asking what the police do on particular issues—is extremely important. It is absolutely vital that we focus the police on government priorities. Aside from the police White Paper, we have issues with police funding and budgets. We have given £1.2 billion extra this year to policing. There is a challenging settlement, but our job is to get better value out of that. But I think there is commonality between all of us in the Chamber today that the issues that matter to people are anti-social behaviour, shop theft, violence against women and girls and child sexual abuse. Although there are many policing priorities, those are things that this legislation is dealing with. Therefore, we are hoping that the resources and focus will follow the legislation. The work we have done already—putting an extra 3,000 neighbourhood police on the ground and focusing on neighbourhood policing—means that over the next two to three years we try to increase the number of forward-facing neighbourhood police officers on the ground.

Nobody expects that there will be no challenge in all this, but the purpose of this Bill is to give legislative framework to government manifesto commitments. I think it meets a number of important objectives. There will be debate between Members; there will be differences; there will be votes; there may not be a meeting of minds on certain issues. But I am hopeful that, when this process is over, this Bill will pass, that it will be put into effect and that Members of this House and the House of Commons will hold the Home Office to account for making sure that we reduce crime, increase confidence in policing and make sure that there are fewer victims in the future. I commend the Bill to the House.

Bill read a second time.

Moved by

[Lord Hanson of Flint]

That the bill be committed to a Committee of the Whole House, and that it be an instruction to the Committee of the Whole House that they consider the bill in the following order:

Clauses 1 and 2, Schedule 1, Clauses 3 to 5, Schedule 2, Clause 6, Schedule 3, Clauses 7 to 18, Schedule 4, Clauses 19 to 55, Schedule 5, Clause 56, Schedule 6, Clauses 57 to 65, Schedule 7, Clauses 66 to 72, Schedule 8, Clauses 73 to 84, Schedule 9, Clauses 85 to 96, Schedule 10, Clauses 97 to 117, Schedule 11, Clauses 118 to 122, Schedule 12, Clauses 123 to 127, Schedule 13, Clauses 128 to 136, Schedule 14, Clauses 137 to 139, Schedule 15, Clauses 140 to 145, Schedules 16 to 18, Clauses 146 to 164, Schedule 19, Clauses 165 to 186, Schedule 20, Clause 187, Schedule 21, Clauses 188 to 203, Title.

Motion agreed.

Manchester Terrorism Attack

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Wednesday 15th October 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, the appalling attack on the Manchester synagogue is a stark warning of the persistent threat of antisemitic hate and the urgent need to unify against those who seek to divide us. Attacks based on race or religion are totally unacceptable and this attack is a chilling testament to the rising tide of division in our society, which has left many in the Jewish community frightened even to go to their synagogue. Antisemitic hate, or hate in any form, has no place in Britain. We must never allow the heat of public debate to legitimise, excuse, encourage or embolden such cowardly acts of terrorism. Anyone who incites hatred, or spreads it, against any faith or background must be held accountable under the law.

This crime was not a political statement but an act of pure violence designed to spread fear and drive communities apart. Nevertheless, all of us, across all political parties, share a responsibility to seek consensus and reduce division when addressing issues that provoke strong passions. As a society, we are becoming more polarised with public debate, whether about events in the Middle East, immigration or indeed any other difficult subject, too frequently descending into hostility and suspicion. We all must reject the language and the policies of division and commit to trying to rebuild a sense of common purpose.

As we mourn the victims of this atrocity, we must also guard against overreaction. The temptation can be to reach for more powers and more controls, even at the expense of our fundamental freedoms. The Prime Minister’s pledge to review public order powers in the wake of Manchester is understandable, but I urge the Government to approach with caution, because incremental curbs on protest will not stop antisemitic hate, but a “drip, drip” approach to legislation risks us becoming a society where people of all backgrounds and beliefs no longer feel safe or free to express their views. That would, in my view, hand victory to those who want to divide us, because the restriction of protest rights will not defeat antisemitism but risks damaging our democracy.

The best way to respond to hate is to defend everyone’s right to live, worship and speak freely, within the law, while refusing to compromise our commitment to an open and plural democracy. We must learn from this tragedy, so I ask the Minister what action are the Government taking to work more closely with grass-roots faith leaders, not only through funding and policing but through genuine, community-led, early warning and education work with Jewish and interfaith groups to strengthen local resilience, encourage reporting and tackle radicalisation at its roots?

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

I am grateful for the approach taken by His Majesty’s loyal Opposition and by colleagues from the Liberal Democrat Benches and for their condemnation of what is an evil act of antisemitic terrorism that targeted innocent worshippers on Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar. It was carried out by a terrorist pledging his allegiance to the warped ideology of Islamism. Like both noble Lords who have spoken, I pay tribute to the two men who were killed that day: Melvin Cravitz and Adrian Daulby. Their bravery saved lives, their actions were commendable and the whole House should express our deepest sympathies, as my right honourable friend the Home Secretary did in her Statement, to their families and friends.

It is important that we recognise today the worshippers, staff and volunteers, but also the emergency services, which responded in a superlative way and in a very quick fashion. The police officers took difficult decisions in dangerous circumstances and arrived at the scene of this terrible terrorist incident with speed.

An attack on our Jewish community is an attack on the entire nation and, as the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower, said, there is no ambiguity around who was responsible for this attack. The attack carried out by Jihad al-Shamie, a 35 year-old British citizen of Syrian descent, was instigated by the influence of extreme Islamist ideology, as evidenced by the 999 call that he made during the incident and his pledging of allegiance to the Islamic State.

Our immediate response to this issue has been several- fold. The noble Lord mentioned sympathy. That is important but it is not enough, as was mentioned. Our immediate priority has been to enhance security, particularly within synagogue locations. Additional support has been made available to more than 500 locations and, as all noble Lords in the House will know, there is a long-standing commitment to fund the Community Security Trust to the tune of £18 million per year.

It is no coincidence—I put this again in relation to the question of Islamophobia—that this month has also seen a suspected arson attack on a mosque in Peacehaven in East Sussex. From my perspective I want to be clear, as my right honourable friend the Home Secretary was in the Statement, that violence directed at any community, be they Jewish or Muslim, of all faiths or none, is an attack on the fabric of this country and should be condemned.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower, asked about the proposals that my right honourable friend has announced in relation to Sections 12 and 14 of the Public Order Act 1986. The noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, on behalf of the Liberal Democrats, also questioned whether that impacts upon freedom. That is a legitimate point to put and I accept that she has put it in good faith. The right to protest is a fundamental right in our society and it must be protected. But of the freedoms that we enjoy, none is more important than the right to live in peace and in safety. The Government have examined clearly the powers under Sections 12 and 14 of the Public Order Act and have come to the conclusion that while the right to protest is a fundamental freedom, it must be balanced against the right of the public to have their safety and security.

In the conversations that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has had with community leaders of all faiths, and with community leaders of no faith, she has concluded, with support from the police, that it is clear that a balance has not been struck. For that reason, my right honourable friend has confirmed that she is now examining amending Sections 12 and 14 of the Public Order Act 1986. Now, what does that mean? It means that the police will be able to take into account the cumulative impact of frequent protests. The police already have powers under Sections 12 and 14 of that Act to agree routes, times and a whole range of other conditions.

One of the things that we are examining, and we will bring forward proposals in due course, is ensuring that if a number of protests commence and continue on conditions set by the police, but ultimately result in intimidation or fear in a particular community, the police will have powers under those proposals to look at whether they—not the Government but the police—wish to put additional conditions to secure the support of the community. Those are important and, with the Home Secretary amending the Public Order Act, we will bring forward proposals shortly to examine those particular issues.

It is important to tell the House that, in the days since the attack, we have stepped up our efforts to tackle antisemitism wherever it is found, challenging misinformation and hatred in schools and looking at what is happening in universities, particularly to protect students of the Jewish faith and to ensure that patients and staff in the National Health Service are supported.

Terrorism seeks to do one thing and that is to divide us. I do not intend, nor does my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, to allow terrorism to divide us. We have a strong level of support for the Jewish community as a whole. We want to ensure that people can live their faith, whatever that faith, in peace and security. It is simply not acceptable to have incidents of this nature.

We need to look again—this is one of the key points that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, made in his questions—at the individual who committed this terrorist act, murdering and attempting to murder individuals in the synagogue. That individual has no record of contact with authorities. For whatever reason, he has self-radicalised. There will be an investigation. I cannot go into further details, but police are continuing to investigate his background and further arrests have been made. Self-evidently, the security services need to look at where there are organised cells undertaking activity. We also need to look at the reasons for self-radicalisation and what it leads to, how it is formed and the processes that lead to it. It remains very difficult for an individual to be identified if they have had no contact on terrorist-related activity. This individual had contact with the police prior to the incident but not on a terrorist-related incident. The independent office of police complaints will investigate the police performance in the contact prior to the incident and will obviously investigate the circumstances of the fatality at the incident. It will produce a report, which I hope will colour our examination of some of those issues at a later date.

I hope that the Government as a whole will look at the issues that both noble Lords mentioned in their contributions. It is important that we maintain a balance. We must look at wherever citizens are threatened and give them support but I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, that the measures we are taking in the proposals outlined by my right honourable friend still protect the right to protest and freedom of speech but give additional support to those communities of whichever faith, or none, that find themselves under persistent pressure from a particular protest group causing fear in their home community area and religious establishment.

The measures that we have discussed today will be brought forward in short order, and the report on lessons learned will allow the Government to reflect on these matters. I simply say at the end of my contribution that the Government have to be eternally vigilant on these matters. There are continually people who wish to do harm to sections of the community, for political and ideological reasons. We have a strong security presence and security service to identify that where possible. But we need to look—this goes to the points that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, made—at what leads to radicalisation in individuals and at better measures to pick that up at an early stage, so that the interventions that we have in place as a Government are applied to individuals who, for whatever reason, find themselves warping their minds. In this case, eventually that hatred led to acts of terrorism that meant people going about their ordinary, day-to-day lives, on the holiest day of the year, faced murder, disruption and fear, and ongoing concern about radicalisation. I hope the House will bear with me on these matters. We will examine the lessons and bring forward proposals in due course.

[The Lord Bishop of Lichfield]

My Lords, my prayers are with the victims, their families and all our Jewish communities following this appalling attack. It is shocking that the ancient evil of antisemitism is currently resurgent in our society. We must remain vigilant against it and all forms of religious hatred. No one in this country should ever feel unsafe because of their faith, and particularly not unsafe in their place of worship.

At a time of rising religious hate crime, it seems more important than ever to create opportunities for connection between communities across religious and cultural differences so that understanding may replace fear. I echo the noble Baroness in asking the Minister what practical steps the Government are taking to work with and support faith leaders and interfaith organisations in efforts to help communities build relationships across religious divides to promote understanding and strengthen cohesion.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate. It is really important that those of different faiths from the Jewish community stand with them and express their solidarity and support. These are attacks against an aspect of life—their religion and very being—that they cherish very dearly. It is simply not acceptable. In the wake of a number of recent incidents, the coming together of churches and people from the Jewish faith and of the Islamic faith has been extremely important in giving comfort and support to those who have been victims of those terrorist attacks. The Government, through Ministers in other departments—not the Home Office, which I speak for—are looking at how we bring together those faiths and how we build resilience.

The simple thing I want, which might be an ambition the whole House will share, is to have an open, tolerant society that recognises and cherishes our differences of approach to religion, community and faith. That means that people of all traditions should work together, and the Government can facilitate that. I am pleased to see my noble friend Lord Khan of Burnley in the Chamber, who put a tremendous amount of effort over the past 12 months in his role in government into reaching out to all faiths, including several hundred visits to mosques, synagogues and churches. I know that work was personally driven, but it is also important it was government driven, with the support of government, to try to do exactly what the right reverend Prelate said and what the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, on behalf of the Liberal Democrats said: to bring together communities to identify problems and challenges and, we hope, to have a concerted, collective approach to solving them.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister, the Front Benches and the right reverend Prelate for the sympathetic remarks they have made, which will be much appreciated by the Jewish community. I also associate myself with the Minister’s remarks about the performance of the noble Lord, Lord Khan of Burnley, which again was very much appreciated by the Jewish and many other communities.

The Minister will appreciate that the Yom Kippur attack, appalling as it was, is not an isolated event. What does it say about our society that for several years, not just in the past two weeks, synagogues, Jewish schools and Jewish communal events have required security protection? This is not the sort of society that we want to live in. What can we do to address why it is that Islamists and their supporters threaten the Jewish community? They tear down photographs of the hostages, for whose release we are all deeply appreciative. Islamist doctors abuse Jewish patients and students chant “Zios should be buried in the ground”. How is it, I ask the Minister, that people brought up and educated in this country think it appropriate to behave in this manner?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful. I condemn all those actions that the noble Lord mentioned in his contribution. It is a worry as to how that has manifested itself, and that is a long-term issue that we the Government need to examine. People should be allowed to live their lives in peace and security in their communities, without physical security. But it is important that we provide—as we have done—some £18 million to the Jewish community this year through the Community Security Trust.

We have supplied an even larger amount of money to help protect mosques and places of religion of the Islamic community, because, as the Peacehaven arson attack showed, this is not something that is restricted to one side of the community. If people have differences of opinion on political issues—and there are differences of opinion on some of the political issues relating to situations in the Middle East—I want to see them resolve those through political process, not through violence, intimidation or harassment.

I say to the noble Lord that, as a Government, we will do what we can to ensure that we return to a position where political differences are resolved by discussion and where respect for other people’s lives and community activity is engendered in our society. But, until we can get to that stage, we have to provide—and the Government will provide—financial, political and material support to protect people to live their own lives.

I hope, when we do that, that the Jewish community, in this instance in particular, wherever it resides in the United Kingdom, will take comfort from the fact that the Government remain on its side to ensure that it can enjoy its life in whichever way it seeks to enjoy it without fear, intimidation or harassment. That is why we have not only brought forward the measures to date but are also looking at potential measures to improve security in relation to protests and parades.

[Lord Beamish (Lab)]

My Lords, I think all our thoughts are with the victims, their families and the Jewish community not just in Manchester but throughout the country. I echo the thanks to the security services, the police and other emergency services that reacted so swiftly to this event. I ask the Minister to pass on my thanks as chair of the ISC to the security services for the update we received this morning on the ongoing investigation. We will obviously be expecting other reports as the investigation continues.

The Jewish community in this country is clearly under attack from Islamist extremism, as well as state-backed terrorism—which was highlighted in our 2025 report on Iran—but also from extreme right-wing terrorism, as set out in our 2022 report. They are both threats to the peaceful Jewish community in our country. One thing that is quite clear in both is the online space. It is used not just for perpetrating the tropes that have been outlined but for the self-radicalisation of individuals both on the right and in the Islamist space. What more can be done to tackle that?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend. As chair of the Intelligence and Security Committee of both Houses of Parliament, he will have access to information that gives greater detail and background to some of the threats that we face from people of both Islamist and right-wing neofascist tendencies. He will know that in this online space there is greater potential for the radicalisation of individuals who will sit in a bedroom and look at stuff and be drawn down a kaleidoscope of activity to reach areas where people who wish this country or individual communities ill will radicalise them downstream.

We introduced the Online Safety Act. As a matter of some urgency, we need to look at making sure that technology companies take down information that is poisonous, and we keep that under constant review. I would welcome recommendations and support from the Intelligence and Security Committee, which will see information that Members of this House will not see, to ensure that we improve the policy objective of ensuring that online radicalisation is as limited as it can be as a result of actions that the Government and tech companies on an international and national basis can take.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

First, I thank the Minister for the Statement, which was most helpful and comprehensive, and I echo the thanks to the emergency services on that day in Manchester, which was a most appalling event.

I shall raise two areas. Of course, we welcome anything that the Home Secretary can do to deal with these antisemitic protests, but, frankly, I do not think that we can wait. There are enough laws in place to prevent them continuing. This was an event that was waiting to happen, notwithstanding the escalation of these protests over the past two years—certainly since the 7 October attacks in Israel. I recall that we had meetings with the Metropolitan Police over 18 months ago, and we said to them, “How can we stop these protests?” These people were calling for jihad and the annihilation of the State of Israel and all Jews and anybody else that they could think of. It was overt—it was on the streets, where they carried placards about Nazism, and all of those things. We were told, “Well, of course, we can stop these protests if they reach a certain threshold”. My point was what threshold needed to be reached, if they were already calling for the death and destruction of citizens of this country. We are now another 18 months on, and I do not think that we can wait for further legislation to be passed. These protests now need to stop—and it was totally offensive that they continued after the attacks in Manchester. That was absolutely appalling. These people have no conscience and no moral compass. But let us see where we go with this.

My second point is on the radicalisation of Islam. The noble Lord, Lord Khan, can help here. What we are aware of is that we have clerics in mosques around this country, and they are actually purporting death and destruction to Jews. It is all there—it is on video, the police have the evidence and nothing is done. We know that there have been clerics coming from quite difficult countries such as the Islamic Republic of Iran, where we know that people there are preaching death and destruction, which is radicalising young people. My question then is—and the role that the noble Lord, Lord Khan, has played is very important—how are the services in this country dealing with these people? They are also, I am afraid, responsible for the actions that happened in Manchester and the continuing antisemitism, which is not going away, on the streets of cities in this country.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I am starting from the basis that protest is legitimate—and that can be protest on a range of issues. People can march and protest and make their point known. However, there are thresholds beyond which harassment, criminal incitement or physical incitement to activity are criminally sanctioned. The police have made arrests and will continue to do so on a range of issues, if people cross that threshold.

What we are looking at, which I hope will assist the noble Baroness, is that at the moment the police have powers to stop, reroute and time marches that are going through or appearing in areas where there could be additional heightened tension. We know what those examples could be—but at the moment the police can do that on a one-off basis. What we are saying in the legislation that we are potentially bringing forward is that, if that continues over a period of time, the police will have additional powers to look at putting in steps to protect the community. That is important, and we shall try to do that at some pace.

The noble Baroness mentioned individuals who might be seeking to radicalise others or cause others to take action of a criminal nature. There is a threshold to that in legislation, currently, and if that threshold is crossed, individuals can be taken to court for those offences.

As a side issue to that, the Government are establishing further an antisemitism working group to provide advice to the Government on antisemitism generally. We are working closely with the government adviser on antisemitism to look at the most effective methods to tackle antisemitism, and we want to ensure that we continue to challenge extremism and, if people go over that criminal threshold, they are brought to account.

That may not satisfy the noble Baroness today, but I hope that she will recognise that the prime objective of this Government is to ensure that people can live their lives in peace, free from intimidation, harassment and religious persecution. That is for any faith, but particularly in this circumstance today for those of the Jewish faith.

[Baroness Berger (Lab)]

My Lords, my eight year-old daughter already has to go into and out of her Jewish school every day with a heavy security presence. There are security guards on the door and there are security doors in and out. She asked me if we should stop going to synagogue following the horrors of the Manchester attack. In the wake of this event—and I have listened to all the contributions—I think the ultimate priority of our Government must be to ensure that people of all faiths, including the British Jewish community, can worship and practice our religion without fear of being murdered on British soil. In that spirit, can my noble friend confirm when the Government are planning to publish an extremism strategy, what references it will have to previous publications, including the Shawcross, Khan and Walney reviews, and when they are planning to publish a hate crime action plan?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I hope my noble friend will accept that I find it very sad to hear her initial comments relating to her daughter. No child should have to go to school to be faced with people who are protecting her from those who are trying to kill her or her family. That is a deeply disturbing comment that my noble friend has made, but I understand why she has made it. It deeply saddens me that that is the society we have come to in certain parts of the United Kingdom.

I cannot give my noble friend specific answers on her points because it might sound glib if I say “shortly”, which is what I would say. I will certainly ensure that energy is put into the publication of further information to widen the response of government. I hope that further announcements will be made soon to ensure the protection of the Jewish community, particularly given the concerns that she has raised. As I have mentioned, we will be bringing forward a range of measures shortly, which were trailed by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary in the Statement earlier this week.

Deprivation of Citizenship Orders (Effect during Appeal) Bill

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 14th October 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hanson of Flint]

That the Bill be now read a second time.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

There is no more important task for any Government than to keep their citizens safe, and this Bill will form an important part of the Government’s ability to do just that. I remind noble Lords that the Bill is very narrow in its scope and intent: it contains just one substantive clause, which is focused solely on closing a specific loophole in the existing deprivation of citizenship process.

Noble Lords may recall its substantive provision, in Clause 1, which addresses a recent Supreme Court ruling: N3(ZA) v the Secretary of State for the Home Department. The effect of this ruling is that, if an appeal against a deprivation decision is successful, or if a deprivation of citizenship order is withdrawn, that initial order will have had no effect and the person will be considered as having continued to be British. This means that people who have been deprived of British citizenship will automatically regain that status before any further avenues of appeal have been exhausted.

The effect of this judgment creates two risks. The first is that someone who poses a significant threat to public safety could return to the UK before all onward appeals are determined. I am sure that is a situation that noble Lords would not wish to see. Secondly, it could allow a person who has been deprived of citizenship, on the ground that it is conducive to the public good, to undermine further deprivation action by renouncing their other nationality before all onward appeals are determined. This is because reinstatement of a deprivation order would then render them stateless. This Bill simply intends to maintain the status quo by closing these loopholes, which may arise in a very small number of deprivation appeals.

It is important to say at the outset that the scope of this Bill does not touch on any wider areas of the deprivation process. It is important to say that because this Bill does not amend the existing deprivation power, it does not extend its potential application to additional individuals, and it does not in any way widen the reasons for which a person could be deprived of their citizenship. It also does not change any existing right of appeal, and it does not place any new restrictions on individuals who are subject to a deprivation order.

It is self-evident that deprivation of citizenship is a significant power, and I know that many noble Lords have strong feelings on its use. However, Parliament has enacted the power and entrusted the Home Secretary with using it, including to protect the UK from those who mean us harm. The existence of this power is not, however, the matter before us today. Rather, in this Bill, it is the specific provision that relates only to the potential period between a successful appeal and a final determination on the case.

To explain why it is so important that this power remains effective, which is what the Bill seeks to achieve, I shall set out briefly the circumstances in which the power is used and therefore the types of threat that the Bill will help protect society from. Deprivation is an important part of the suite of tools available to the Government to maintain public safety and preserve national security. The use of deprivation where it is conducive to the public good is a decision to be taken personally by the Home Secretary. It is used against some of the most dangerous individuals who pose a threat to the United Kingdom, including terrorists, extremists and serious and organised criminals. Someone who has been deprived of their citizenship and is in the UK no longer has any immigration status. Steps may be taken to remove them from the UK; they may be held in immigration detention in the interim; if they are overseas when a deprivation decision is made, they would not be permitted to enter the UK. In these circumstances, this is clearly an effective way to disrupt the threat posed by dangerous individuals.

I know that noble Lords will be interested in the volumes of this power: it is a power used sparingly. From 2008 to 2023, the entire period of the last Government’s use of the power, 12 people a year on average were deprived of their citizenship when it was determined to be for the public good.

There will undoubtedly be interest in this debate in the safeguards within the system. As I have set out, the existing safeguards will not be affected by the Bill. Deprivation decisions are carefully considered and made in accordance with international law, following advice from officials and lawyers. Each deprivation case is assessed individually. Along with many other things we have been discussing this week, this regime complies with the UN Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness and always comes with a right of appeal.

On the specific provision in the Bill before the House today, I reassure noble Lords that there is indeed grit in the system to ensure that the Bill, once enacted, is not used for any spurious purpose. Rules of court set defined timescales within which any application by the Home Secretary to appeal must be made. In addition, the decision to grant permission for such an appeal lies solely with the courts and is contingent on the presence of a properly arguable point of law. This means that the Government cannot rely on the provisions of the Bill to maintain deprivation of a person’s citizenship following a successful appeal without proper legal grounds or justification.

Finally, noble Lords will be aware that the deprivation power can also be used where someone has obtained citizenship for which they were never entitled on a fraudulent basis—for example, by providing false documents. Indeed, the majority of the deprivation orders fall under this category, as from 2018 to 2022, there was an average of 151 cases in that category per year. However, I want to be clear up front that the Bill will not apply in such cases. This is because where citizenship has been obtained fraudulently, a deprivation order is made only once all avenues of appeal have been exhausted. Such cases will therefore not be impacted by the narrow scope of the Bill.

As I hope I have stated and illustrated to noble Lords, the Bill is extremely narrow—in fact, in my nearly 30 years in both Houses of Parliament, it is probably the smallest Bill I have had the pleasure to introduce—but it seeks to ensure, in its smallness, that the deprivation power remains effective by retaining the status quo.

It is important, in finishing, to place on record a tribute by the Home Office team and me to our world-class law enforcement and intelligence agencies. They work tirelessly to keep us safe, and we owe them tremendous gratitude for that. This Bill is another tool in our toolbox to ensure that we can preserve our national security. I hope that noble Lords will examine it in detail. It is a small Bill; I hope they will support it, and I look forward to discussing it with Members of this House today, in Committee and on Report at a later date. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to all noble Lords who have raised points in this Second Reading. I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, and the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower, for their support from His Majesty’s loyal Opposition. I also welcome the broad support from the noble Lords, Lord Anderson and Lord Carlile. I recognise that other noble Lords have made legitimate points, and I will try to respond to them.

I remind the House that the debate is about the very small amendment to the legislation. It is not about the principle or application of deprivation, or the numbers of people who have had their citizenship deprived. It is a response to the Supreme Court judgment and what that means in relation to individuals who could potentially return to or retain their status in the United Kingdom when the Government have, through the Home Secretary, determined, for whatever reason, that that individual needs to have their citizenship deprived. That is a very serious step for a Home Secretary to take. When the Supreme Court states, as it did in the recent case, that an individual can retain their citizenship during the appeal process, that means that the individual, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, just mentioned, will be free to remain a British citizen, with all the rights and privileges that brings, while the appeal is ongoing, unless this legislation is put in place.

The noble Lord, Lord German, in his introductory remarks, made a number of points about that. Essentially, I ask him whether he is willing to take the risk. That is the nub of the argument that we are putting to the House today—that the purpose of deprivation of citizenship being maintained during the course of the appeal procedure is so that the United Kingdom Government, the Home Secretary, accountable to the House of Commons, and me in this House, accountable for the Home Office, can take a decision and uphold it during the period of appeal. If the appeal is successful downstream then all bets are off and the individual’s citizenship is restored. For whatever reason it was originally removed, the Home Secretary’s decision has been overturned and the status quo for the individual remains. However, in the event of the individual remaining at the serious risk level that meant the Home Secretary brought forward the citizenship issue in the first place, that opens the United Kingdom to a risk until such time as the appeal is heard. This Bill deals solely with that issue. I heard what the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, and the noble Lord, Lord Verdirame, said on this matter, but I put it to them and to the noble Lord, Lord German that the issue is about the management of risk by the UK Government in a limited circumstance, which I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, for raising.

This has been a fair debate about what we call the “Kit Malthouse amendments”, as a number of noble Lords have raised in their contributions. It is not appropriate to confer this discretion on the courts, because it is the Secretary of State who is accountable to this House and to Parliament, through the House of Commons, for matters of national security. As the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, mentioned, deprivation of citizenship and national security are matters for the Home Secretary. The Supreme Court itself emphasised that in its discussion and judgment. The Bill will align the approach to asylum and human rights appeals and extend it to appeals to the Supreme Court.

Decisions to deprive are taken in accordance with our international obligations and with consideration as to whether to give deprivation will expose the person to a real risk of mistreatment, which would constitute a breach of Articles 2 or 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights. The Home Secretary is the person responsible for that decision. I hear what noble Lords have said but that is the reason why my noble friend in the Commons, Minister Jarvis, rejected the Kit Malthouse approach, and the reason why I do so today.

Valid points have been raised. The noble Lords, Lord Jay, Lord German, Lord Anderson and Lord Verdirame, mentioned citizenship and the impact on the child. I pay great tribute to the private discussions —which are now public discussions because we have talked about them—that I had with the noble Lord, Lord Jay, because they raised an important issue. We have looked at that and reflected on it, and I hope I can give a satisfactory response to all noble Lords who have raised this question with me. It is simply this: the Bill does not alter the existing situation in relation to children born to deprived individuals, which is already established in law.

Where a child holds British citizenship, the deprivation of the parent’s citizenship has no effect on the child’s nationality status. Again, those points were mentioned across the House today. In cases where a child is born after the parent was deprived of British citizenship—another issue that the noble Lord, Lord Jay, has mentioned privately and in the Chamber today—their entitlement to British citizenship will depend on a number of factors, including the status of the other parent. The consequence of the Supreme Court’s decision in N3(ZA) is that if the child would have been British had their parent not been deprived then a successful appeal against deprivation by their parent means the child is automatically a British citizen. There are no changes in any of the principles that we have here, and I hope that reassures noble Lords on these points. Again, I am happy to reflect on that in due course.

The noble Lord, Lord Jay, made valid points on the question of the appeals procedure and the fast-track process that takes place. In answer to what I think was his pointed question to me, the Government are committed to supporting the expediting of these cases on a case-by-case basis, where appropriate, as quickly as possible. It is in no one’s interests to have long drawn-out appeals. What is the practical implication of that in relation to the courts determining the length of the appeal procedure where disagreements arise, now that courts have the power to order case management reviews to resolve issues? The current rules of court already permit the court to make directions to expedite cases if there are reasons for that to be done. The judiciary themselves are probably, dare I say it, better placed than the Home Secretary to determine and assess in each case how they can expedite those cases or not. All the factors that the noble Lord, Lord Jay, is concerned about are things that would potentially mean that a judge could determine, with “defence counsel”, that this needs to be done quickly. That is reasonable, and we want to see it over and done with as quickly as possible. We can look at the practical implications for the Government, but I hope I can reassure him on the principle.

Questions were asked about whether a person could be deported from the UK while they are appealing against the deprivation decision. In theory, it is possible for a person to be deprived of citizenship and deported before the deprivation appeal is resolved, but in practice that is going to be difficult because there will be the opportunity for people to make a human rights claim in response to the stage 1 deportation letter, and that means they would have an in-country right of appeal against the refusal of that claim if certified and a right of redress against the certification decision. It is a matter for the courts how those appeals are managed.

A number of other points were raised, including by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, about the role of the terrorism reviewer having oversight of these matters. The current situation is that the oversight for this aspect of public policy lies with the inspector of borders. They can determine their own inspection regime, if they wish to look at that. The terrorism reviewer does not currently have that role and responsibility—that is an argument the noble Lord might want to put down for debate. Should the inspector of borders wish to have an investigation on the performance of any matter to do with this—including the rights of the child, the length of the appeal procedure or the Home Secretary’s powers—they could do that, should they so wish, independently of government. So there is a sort of oversight there, but maybe not to the standard or type that the noble Lord wishes.

Ultimately, for this House—and, again, I am grateful for the support of His Majesty’s Opposition, in particular on this—it boils down to whether we are willing to take the risk. If the Home Secretary has taken advice from officials at a senior level and signed that order and taken the decision to deprive an individual of their citizenship, they have done that because there is a threat to the United Kingdom, in one form or another. If this Bill is not enacted, that threat will potentially materialise in another form as the individual will be able to restore their rights as a citizen when they appeal the original decision. This is the purpose of this Bill.

I recognise the range of points made by noble Lords from across the House on a range of issues, from the principle of deprivation in the first place to the numbers and so on, but that is the focus of the Bill and I put the question: are noble Lords willing to take that risk? I suggest that the Government are not and I am grateful to those Members who will support that position in this House today.

[Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB)]

I have a question for the Minister about the possibility that perhaps in the future the deprivation of citizenship would be used as a prelude to deportation, even in circumstances where the first-instance tribunal had decided that the deprivation of citizenship was unlawful. It would be very helpful if the noble Lord could write to me about that.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I thought I had answered that, but if I have not answered that to the extent that I thought, I will reflect on what we have said in Hansard and will ensure that, before the next stage of this Bill, which I think is scheduled for a week today, a piece of paper in electronic or physical form lands on the noble Lord’s desk. With that, I commend the Bill to the House.

Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Refugee Family Reunion Scheme

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Tuesday 14th October 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Sheffield]

To ask His Majesty’s Government, following the temporary suspension of new applications to a refugee family reunion scheme, what is the timeline for introducing a new route.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

This suspension is temporary while the Government undertake a review and reform of the current family reunion rules to ensure we have a fair and properly balanced system. We anticipate that any changes will come into effect from spring 2026.

[The Lord Bishop of Sheffield]

I thank the Minister for his response, but I will press him further. Recent research from Oxfam and the Refugee Council has found clear evidence of people turning to cross-channel smugglers to reach family members because they could not access a safe and legal family reunion pathway. Therefore, what dedicated family reunion pathways are being considered by the Government that will offer safe, legal and accessible alternatives to asylum seekers, and which will thereby disrupt smuggling operations?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate. Anybody in the system as of 4 September will still have the same approach to asylum and family reunion claims that applied prior to the announcement by my right honourable friend. This is a pause while we review the system. Anybody can apply through any other safe and legal route, and that will be considered appropriately. In the last 12 months, there was a 368% increase in family reunion grants compared with 2022. That is not sustainable, and we need to examine the reasons for that. That is why the pause has been put in place.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, safe and legal routes have always included working with the United Nations on its various programmes. I had the honour of organising the Bosnian one in the 1990s. Therefore, can the Minister confirm that the Government are still actively in touch with the United Nations to make sure that that safe and legal route is exploited where appropriate to give sanctuary to those that need it?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

In answer to the noble Lord’s question, I can say yes. The Government are always in discussion with the United Nations and will continue to be so.

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, the suspension of the refugee scheme until next spring presents a particular problem for unaccompanied children whose refugee parents in the United Kingdom will be making an application for them to come to the United Kingdom. What special consideration have the Minister and the Government given to those children in that regard, in this period between now and next spring?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The Government uphold the principle of family unity and want to ensure that we maintain that. We have to examine the reason for the significant drive in family reunion applications over the last two to three years. It is a significant increase, and therefore the pause has been applied so that we can assess the situation, look at those areas and make some recommendations for, as I said to the right reverend Prelate, spring of next year. Family reunion and safeguarding children will remain key factors. Individuals can still apply through existing safe and legal routes, but the automatic assumption, which we have now closed on a pause basis, is not going to continue until we have reviewed it.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, if I had a very suspicious mind, I would be inclined to ask the Minister whether this is an excuse for stopping family reunion altogether. I do not have such a suspicious mind all the time; I just wonder whether he can give us an assurance that this is not just a way of blocking the whole process. He will know that last night, we debated the whole thing of child and family reunion, and it will be coming up again on Report.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I say to my noble friend, who I very much respect on these issues, that, as he knows, between January 2015 and June 2025, 83,179 family reunion visas were granted. In 2024, nearly 20,000 individuals arrived under this route. There has been and will continue to be a massive increase in the numbers arriving. It is responsible of the Government to examine this issue, to look at the reasons why this is happening and to potentially take some steps to regularise that situation. That does not mean that we have stopped the scheme; it simply means that we have to look at why there has been a 368% increase over the previous two years in the numbers arriving.

[Lord Sahota (Lab)]

My Lords, if refugees living in the UK can demonstrate that they are in stable employment and contributing to society, and that their families would not be dependent on public funds, will their families be allowed to join them in this country?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

As my noble friend will guess from the questions I have had to date, we paused the family reunion scheme on 4 September pending a review, and we expect to bring forward proposals by April of next year. I am not in a position to give my noble friend a foretaste of what those proposals will be, because the purpose of us pausing the scheme is to examine the reasons why the increase has happened; to look at the pressures that have brought, potentially, 18% of reunion visas from Syria, 17% from Iran and 12% from Afghanistan; to look at what the drivers of that are and at how we can provide an appropriate level of family reunion—but in a context whereby we put some more strictures on what family reunion means.

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

The Government have rightly suspended the refugee family reunion route while they draft new rules for the scheme. The Prime Minister has said that this was because he wanted to end the

“golden ticket to settling in the UK”.

Surely, the Minister must accept that the Government’s inability to implement any meaningful policies to stop illegal migration and their failure to deter the recent small boat crossings is indeed a golden ticket?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord and I have had much discussion on this issue in the last weeks and months. He knows that we have an honest disagreement about how we control some of those issues. He is conflating family reunion and asylum claims with individuals who are potentially coming here through irregular migration by small boats, funded by criminal gangs. He knows we are putting a border command in place to tackle those gangs. He knows we are putting in place measures to criminalise that activity. He knows we are putting in measures to try to stop that, including a scheme with France and scrapping the failed Rwanda scheme. There is an honest disagreement between us, but I hope he will recognise that the Government are acting responsibly in looking at the drivers of family reunion to see if we can make an honest assessment, rather than letting the figures rise uncontrollably, as happened under the last year of the previous Government.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

The definition of a family is very clear in the regulations. What kind of relative would the Government deem inappropriate, based on the evidence they have before them in the review that is taking place?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

We have had a lot of discussion over the last couple of days on the immigration Bill about the question of what forms a relative. Amendments have been proposed to the Bill that would allow grandparents, siblings, cousins and others to come to the United Kingdom as part of the family reunion policy. The Government have resisted those. Part of this review is to look at those very issues: who is coming, why they are coming, what their family relationship is, and why the growth has taken place. It is perfectly responsible for any Government to look at that and to say, “We’ve had an enormous increase in the last three to four years in the numbers who are coming under this route; is that appropriate?” That is what the Government are doing.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, is not the answer to why there is a surge at the moment a simple one? They see UK migration policy tightening and tightening, perhaps as the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, suggested, and that the only way they can reconcile themselves with their families is by getting in as soon as possible. Is not that the reason for the surge?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Again, I do not wish to pre-empt the review that is taking place. We are looking at what the reasons are. The growth has occurred over the last three to four years. That might well be to do with the situation of instability in places such as Syria and Afghanistan, but use of that route has increased. It is important for any responsible Government to look at what the reasons are, the numbers involved and what the steps are to manage and assess that, and to review the criteria. That is what this Government are doing. We have paused that scheme, and nobody before that pause is affected. The applications in the system will still be considered, but post 4 September to the end of our review, there is a pause. In the meantime, as I have said to other noble Lords, individuals can apply through normal family routes to undertake a transfer to the UK should they wish and, if they meet the criteria, they will be accepted.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

Given the suspension, sine die, of the refugee family reunion scheme, what advice would the Minister give to the bona fide refugee here, granted asylum status, who discovers that their son or daughter is stuck in a camp in Libya, Syria or Turkey? Their child would like to join them; they would like to have their child here. What advice would the Minister give?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The advice I would give is that there are a number of routes that individuals can apply to in order to exercise their right to join their family. Those routes are available and can be exercised, but the family reunion automatic route we have now has been paused—not, in answer to my noble friend Lord Dubs, ended—pending review, to look at the very issues that have caused the need for the review in the first place.

Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 13th October 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

My Lords, this group brings us to a very topical and significant point of contention. Amendments 165, 166 and 177 all seek in their own way to expand refugee family reunion provisions, in some cases dramatically.

I begin by acknowledging the sincerity of those who support these amendments. We all recognise the tragic circumstances that force families apart due to conflict and persecution. But we must equally recognise that compassion, if not tempered by realism and control, risks undermining both the integrity of our immigration system and the public’s confidence in its fairness. Each of these amendments, though well intentioned, risks undermining the very principles that underpin a sustainable, fair and secure asylum system.

Amendments 165 and 166, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, have made the argument that those granted refugee status in this country should be able to apply to bring their spouse, civil partner or unmarried partner, their children, grandchildren, sister, brother, nephew or nieces to the UK; and, for a child, they should be able to sponsor their parents, grandparents, sisters, brothers, aunts and uncles. This is a fundamental shift in the architecture of our immigration policy. It creates wide-ranging entitlements without the necessary safeguards, verification mechanisms or limits. It also risks creating perverse incentives, in particular the possibility that families might send unaccompanied children on dangerous journeys in the hope of opening a pathway for broader reunification. Such unintended consequences which risk perverse incentives are not compassionate: they are, to put it mildly, reckless.

Amendment 166 would require the Secretary of State to rewrite the immigration rules within six months to provide an expansive new framework for refugee family reunion—one that far exceeds the scope of existing policy, international norms and operational capacity. Subsection (5) of its proposed new clause includes, as of right, not only spouses and dependent children but siblings up to age 25, unmarried partners and, potentially, a wide range of others where there is dependency or concern for well-being. In that regard, my noble friend Lord Jackson is right to raise the issue of unmarried partners via his Amendment 169. Crucially, it would also open the door to almost unlimited discretion under its subsection (5)(e). This would empower the Secretary of State to admit other persons based on subjective criteria, including emotional or psychological dependency, with no practical limiting principle.

This is not a measured enhancement of our current rules. It is an open-ended expansion that risks transforming refugee protection into a de facto right to extended family migration, far removed from the original purpose of asylum law. It would not only increase pressure on our asylum system, already under significant strain, but risk distorting the principle of individual refuge into a system of family-by-family resettlement through the back door.

The current refugee family reunion framework already allows for spouses and children under 18 to join those granted protection, recognising both humanitarian concern and practical enforceability. What is proposed here goes far beyond that: it would create a prescriptive and permanent legal duty to change immigration rules, backed by statutory timetables, without proper democratic scrutiny or flexibility to adapt to changing geopolitical conditions.

This raises several concerns, the first about security and verification. How will we reliably establish family links, particularly when documentation is scarce or unreliable? The broader we cast the net of eligibility, the more vulnerable our system becomes to fraud, abuse and trafficking. A second concern is about the operational consequences. The Home Office is already processing record numbers of applications, with finite resources. Imposing a statutory obligation to widen the criteria, potentially by tens of thousands of additional claimants, would undermine our capacity to deal swiftly and justly with the most urgent cases. This amendment, with its wide eligibility, statutory rigidity and lack of safeguards, risks sending precisely that signal.

I must ask: what is the end point? If we legislate to allow adult siblings, adult children up to 25, unmarried partners and those in psychological dependency, where does it end? We risk normalising a model where refuge is no longer about the individual at risk but an entitlement for entire extended families, however genuine their desire to reunite. That is not what the refugee convention envisages and it is not something we can responsibly support.

Amendment 177 proposes a statutory family reunion right for asylum-seeking children overseas to join relatives already granted protection in the UK. The amendment would remove virtually every safeguard, with no maintenance or accommodation requirements, no fees and no health surcharge. It would also oblige the Secretary of State to facilitate travel arrangements and co-ordinate with foreign authorities, regardless of the complexities or security conditions on the ground. In effect, this would create a state-sponsored international reunification scheme for extended relatives, with no meaningful eligibility checks or financial thresholds.

The idea may be noble in sentiment, but it is completely divorced from operational reality. We already offer safe and legal routes for those in greatest need. The resettlement schemes for Syrians, Afghans and Ukrainians, not to mention the Hong Kong BNO route, demonstrate that, when this country chooses to act, we do so with generosity and resolve. But that generosity must be targeted, managed and sustainable.

At the heart of all three amendments is a belief that compassion must override control, but compassion without control is not kindness but chaos. The British people expect an asylum system that is firm but fair, not one that is open-ended, unverified and vulnerable to abuse. We must not confuse individual acts of empathy with a systematic rewriting of our immigration obligations. Nor should we allow our policies to be shaped by emotional pressure alone. A functioning asylum system must serve those in greatest need first and foremost, but it must do so within the bounds of national sovereignty, operational capacity and public trust. I fully respect those who have tabled these amendments, but I urge the Committee to reflect seriously on the risks they pose. We cannot allow emotion to drive policy at the expense of security, sustainability and the long-term integrity of our borders.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

I am genuinely grateful to noble Lords who have tabled these amendments. I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Hamwee and Lady Jones, the noble Lords, Lord German, Lord Jackson and Lord Kerr, and my noble friends Lord Dubs and Lady Lister for their proposed amendments. They have generated a debate and discussion that we need to have. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, for his recognition of the difficult job we face in the Home Office. This week alone, it is immigration today, deprivation of citizenship tomorrow and crime and policing on Thursday, and there may be a repeat Statement on the Manchester incident as well. It is a full agenda for the Home Office to deal with.

I start by responding to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. I am not right-wing; I am not pandering to right-wing tendencies. I am trying to ensure, with my colleagues in the Home Office, that we manage some important issues in an effective way, for the response that is required by the public but also for the management of this system.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

My Lords, the two amendments in this group in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, and spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord German, raise two slightly different, yet interlinked, points. I have just a few observations. There is often much talk about the necessity of immigration because people are unwilling to do certain jobs, and therefore, to prevent understaffing, we must fill vacancies with workers from abroad. This is evident in the social care sector, which undoubtedly does suffer from a workforce shortage and low wages. Although not guaranteed, there is the possibility that, if wages in the care sector were higher, we might see more British people willing to enter carers’ roles and thus end the reliance on importing labour for the sector.

There is the obvious caveat, of course. This amendment asks for a report to assess the effect of introducing a sector-specific minimum wage for carers on net migration, and we must be careful about setting wages via statutory intervention in a highly selective manner. If we begin carving out bespoke wage floors sector by sector, we risk distorting the labour market and undermining the effectiveness of our broader immigration and wage policy framework. Nevertheless, Amendment 175 raises an interesting point and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

I am far more sceptical about Amendment 176, which seeks to exempt NHS workers from the immigration skills charge. The NHS currently relies on talented professionals from around the world. They are a credit to our country and an integral part of our public services. However, I would suggest that there is a fallacy inherent in this debate. For far too long, our solution to the problem of labour shortages in the health and care sector has been to simply import workers from abroad. That is the easy solution. I have no issue with admitting that, in the past, my party has been all too complicit in this as well. But just because this has been the prevailing policy for some time does not mean it is right.

The immigration skills charge exists for a reason: to ensure that businesses and public services invest in domestic training and workforce development. Staffing shortfalls in the NHS have been filled by migration, but what that demonstrates is a fundamental weakness in our healthcare training and education system. As it stands, we are clearly not doing enough to hire British doctors, nurses and care workers, and that is why we are having to rely on immigration to fill those gaps. This is precisely the inverted logic that has been applied to healthcare hiring and immigration for far too long.

To exempt NHS employees outright risks setting a precedent that could ultimately weaken the incentive for long-term workforce planning in our health system. Applying exceptions to the charge will therefore not solve the problem we have; it may very well exacerbate it.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord German, for speaking to the amendments on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton. They have raised two specific issues, as the noble Lords, Lord Harper and Lord Davies of Gower, have mentioned. First, the Government recognise the vital contribution which international care workers have made to both the NHS and adult social care. However, the immigration White Paper, published in May, sets out the Government’s general position that we should be trying to encourage greater use and greater support for opportunities within the United Kingdom for those levels of skills, training and engagement for those who are economically inactive in the resident UK labour market. The purpose of the Government’s White Paper—and, indeed, the announcements on 30 September on the fair pay agreement for the adult care sector—is to ensure that professionals are recognised and rewarded for the important work they do. It is a manifesto commitment that we will commit to extensively engage with the care sector on the design and implementation of a fair pay agreement, with the process and objective of, along with the immigration White Paper, increasing the use of UK-based residents in the social care sector.

I am grateful for the introductory comments from the noble Lord, Lord German, because in those comments he clarified for me what he meant about the minimum wage. Obviously, there is no specific minimum wage for carers as a whole, although there is a national minimum wage, which I was proud to stay up over several days to vote for back in 1998 in another place. It is a very important piece of legislation. However, people looking to recruit international care workers and senior care workers must now pay at least £25,000 per year based on a 37.5 hour week. This equates to £12.82 per hour. Noble Lords will be aware that the Government changed the immigration rules in July to remove the right to recruit care workers internationally. Therefore, the amendment as drafted is unclear as to what minimum wage would be reported on, although I did get the sense that it is the living wage that the noble Lord, Lord German, was speaking about.

However, I do not believe that it is necessary to lay a report in Parliament, given that the Government publish details on migration on a quarterly basis which will show the impact of changes on inward migration and, in due course, once we have had an opportunity to consult further, the impact of the fair pay agreement on adult social care as a whole.

More broadly, in light of changes to the immigration system, the Government have commissioned the Migration Advisory Committee to review salary thresholds across the skilled worker route, to ensure that international recruitment is never a cheap alternative to fair pay and must reflect the new changes to our immigration system. I think this is a very positive development by the Government to ensure that foreign workers are not undercutting wages for people based in the United Kingdom—something I had experience of in my former constituency when I was a Member of Parliament. So I say with due respect, as ever, to the noble Lord, Lord German, that the amendment is not necessary and misses the target on this point.

On Amendment 176, I hope the Committee will bear with me when I say that I agreed with almost every word of the contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Harper—it is a novel experience, but one I welcome—as he made the arguments that I would have made and will make on this amendment. Removing the immigration skills charge would send the wrong message. It would remove an important tool in encouraging employers to look first at the domestic labour market and what more can be done to train and improve the skills of those in the UK, rather than simply looking outside it to import individuals who may accordingly be employed on a lower rate of pay. Following the arguments we made in the immigration White Paper, we want to ensure that we both reduce reliance on overseas-trained workers to support our public services and upskill and support the development of local talent to fulfil those roles.

Also—I find myself in agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower, on this point—by seeking to exempt the NHS, this amendment would allow the NHS to benefit from cheaper recruitment for non-clinical roles, such as health service and public health managers or people working in IT occupations. The amendment would not cater for health and care professionals who are not employed by the NHS. For example, it would not cover nurses working in private hospitals or health professionals who may work in private organisations that support the wider health sector.

So, for once in this Committee, I agree with two noble Lords from the Official Opposition Benches. Hopefully, I can rely on their support to ensure that the proposals from the noble Lord, Lord German, if he chooses to bring them back on Report later this month or early in November, are defeated. I hope that, with the explanation I have given him, the noble Lord will not press these amendments and will reflect on them with the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, whom I hope to see back in her place shortly, so that we do not need to discuss this issue again on Report in a couple of weeks’ time.