Syria

Daniel Kawczynski Excerpts

Monday 3rd September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. A large number of Members want to contribute. I ask that contributions now be brief—one question, and clipped answers would be excellent, thank you Foreign Secretary.

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

China did not veto resolutions on intervention in Libya. Have the Foreign Secretary’s Chinese counterparts explained to him what is the difference between Syria and Libya such that they are now obstructing us in the Security Council on the matter of Syria?

[Mr Hague]

That is a difficult explanation; certainly, they have tried to explain. They support a great deal of what we say, and the analysis and what should be done and the need for a peaceful transition in Syria, but they stop just short of supporting a chapter 7 resolution that would embody that in a UN resolution. I think the reasons are similar to the ones that I just gave to the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) about Russia.

UK-Turkey Relations

Daniel Kawczynski Excerpts

Wednesday 4th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr MacShane]

The electioneering language from then President Sarkozy and right-wing politicians in France was simply hostile to Turkey, as it is in Germany and Austria. And believe me, if we want to list the politicians, newspapers and political cultures that are hostile to Turkey, we should look across the Rhine rather than in Paris. I wrote an article in Le Monde, which I am happy to send to the hon. Gentleman, condemning the absurd notion that the French Parliament would decide what was genocide and what was not. That is a matter for history, not politicians.

We need to ask one or two serious questions of Turkey. It demands absolute solidarity, which personally I give, in its fight against the PKK and its wretched killer terrorist leader, Ocalan, but when exactly the same type of organisation, Hamas, insists on its right to kill Jews and Israelis and to blow up people in the region, and the Israelis take the necessary action to protect their state from Hamas, Mr Erdogan supports Hamas while demanding condemnation of the PKK. Turkey must be asked to support not only friendly relations 360° around the compass, as its Foreign Minister said, but absolute geopolitical consistency. If we are to support Turkey’s campaign, action and language against the PKK, Turkey must ask itself why it supports terrorist organisations elsewhere in the region.

Mention has been made of Cyprus. The European Council first committed itself to opening trade links with northern Cyprus but then reneged. That said, Turkey does not need to maintain two full military divisions of 35,000 men stationed in the tiny area of northern Cyprus. It can withdraw any number of them, while still leaving an adequate security presence, and show to the world it is looking for a new relationship with Cyprus. Turkish-Cypriot relations are bitter and poisonous. I do not agree with the deputy leader of the Liberal Democrats, the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), who said he thought, after a visit there, that it would all get better next year. There needs to be a huge sea change on both sides. My own view is that in any of these conflicts, the bigger, the more powerful and the more dominant nation—and, in 1974, the invading nation—should be the one to find the confidence to come to a better accord with the people it cannot find a solution even to talk to.

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman mentions Cyprus. Will he acknowledge that Turkey has done an awful lot in recent years to improve relations with Greece, and will he join me in expressing our satisfaction at that?

[Mr MacShane]

Absolutely. Turkish foreign policy is innovative, flexible and open. We remember President Gul’s state visit to London last year or perhaps 18 months ago. It was an important triumph, and he is a very distinguished statesman. There are many, many highly competent Turkish diplomats and business men, and the stronger the relations, the better, particularly with Greece. I agree strongly with that, but Greece spends 50% more of its GDP on defence than we or the Turks do. Greece has imported more weapons in the past 10 years than Israel. Why? Because Turkey will still not give an unqualified security guarantee to all the territory of Greece. There are overflights and rows on this and that—not a full-scale invasion—but I cannot meet a Greek who, when I say, “Why are you spending all this money on defence? You’re not going to go to war with Turkey,” does not shiver and shudder. Turkey could help to stabilise the Greek economy by signing a total non-aggression pact with Greece, saying that it will respect all Greek property and territorial frontiers.

Although Turkey opened its frontiers with Syria—now, however, it finds itself in the midst of the Syrian storm—it refuses to open its frontiers with Armenia because of the Nagorno-Karabakh situation and its relationship with the Turkic-speaking Azerbaijan. Again, I can half understand that, but closed frontiers are the curse of all modern economic development and political advances.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) referred to the problem of journalists, specifically Leyla Zana. As we speak, 205 people are on trial near Istanbul. The publisher Ragip Zarakolu, who was first condemned by the Turkish judicial system in 1971 for having secret links with Amnesty International, is again standing trial. That is not necessarily the Turkish Government’s fault; rather, the Turkish judicial system needs to rethink. If we want to increase parliamentary links, Labour Members should explain to the CHP—the nominally social democratic party—that Turkey’s penal code, with its legendary clause 301, which makes it a crime to insult the Turkish nation and gives the judicial system and prosecutors carte blanche to arrest and lock up anybody they want, is a real problem.

Those are the slight questions that I have, based on decades of visiting Turkey. I would like Britain to make a special effort on Turkey. The Minister is committed to doing so, but he is hamstrung by two great problems, the first of which is the attitude of the Home Office and its hostility to foreigners coming in to Britain. The other great difficulty is that, although we proclaim ourselves across the House to be the champions of Turkey joining the European Union, the rest of Europe listens to the Prime Minister talking about referendums and saying there is no terror for Britain outside the EU. The rest of Europe therefore thinks that we are on the way out. Turkey wants to come in—we may be on the way out. We need to rethink our approach to the European Union, but I am not sure that that will happen on this Government’s watch.

Foreign Affairs and International Development

Daniel Kawczynski Excerpts

Tuesday 15th May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

My hon. Friend mentioned the conflict in Bahrain. Does he share my concern that Iran was partly responsible for intervening and trying to destabilise the existing regime there?

[Alec Shelbrooke]

Yes, I absolutely agree. Indeed, that was the point I was trying to make about what would happen if Iran went down the road and became a nuclear-armed country, because where else does its influence lie in the middle east? It lies with Hezbollah, certainly, and there is even evidence coming forward about some of the military equipment finding its way to Hamas. My point is simply this. We cannot just make the argument in foreign affairs that says, “Let’s not take any military action against Iran because we don’t want to cause the deaths of innocent people.” I absolutely support that point; but we also need to ensure that negotiations work, and that is why we should be involved, because we could cause the death of innocent people by doing nothing. Those proxy wars are important.

I am worried about the rhetoric on military action against Iran that was coming out three months ago. If we were to take such action, what would happen? Another western-led invasion of middle eastern land would certainly serve as a recruitment tool. Such action would also lead to the deaths of innocent people, not only those who were under the bombs when they landed, but those whose infrastructure we would probably take out along the way as part of any military campaign, leading to a degradation of the standard of living of those people. Indeed, tens of thousands of people have died in Iraq as a result of the loss of such infrastructure. Negotiations are absolutely vital, and we must ensure that we use the support of Russia and China to make a deep impact on Iran.

Moving on to international aid, there is a lot of criticism in the country at large about retaining our aim to spend 0.7% of gross national income on international aid. People say that we cannot afford it, but one of the great advantages of having a statement of how our taxes are spent would be that they would be able to see that the proportion being spent on international aid is actually tiny. I do not care if I get criticism from some of my constituents for saying that this is a moral, Christian obligation that we have to carry out and achieve. We simply cannot stand by and let innocent people die through a lack of the most basic infrastructure.

The problem with the international aid budget related to where the money was going before, but the actions taken by the Secretary of State in the first two years of this Parliament have gone a long way to restoring people’s faith in the process. Some £100 million-worth of projects in 16 countries have been closed because they were not delivering and the funds were not getting to where they were needed. Money is no longer going to countries such as Russia and China that have developed and moved forward. I can look my constituents in the eye when they say, “You’re just giving money to Robert Mugabe”, and tell them that that is exactly what we are not doing. The money that we spend on international development is going to ensure that the lives of people in the developing countries get better.

I ask hon. Members this question: if we had spent millions of pounds in 1990, when the Russians pulled out of Afghanistan, to ensure stability in that country, would we now be spending billions of pounds and suffering the loss of more than 400 of our servicemen trying to defend the area? I do not believe that we would; the investment that we make in international aid and development saves us money in the long run and helps to protect innocent lives.

I was going to outline some of the areas covered by our international aid programmes, but my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) has already done so. I believe that the House can get behind a lot of the projects that we take part in. They are relatively cheap and they bring stability to the countries concerned. That reduces pressures on our borders, and it is vital to carry on moving forward in that way. It is my core belief that this is a fundamental moral responsibility. We are a developed nation; we are, in the grand scheme of things, a wealthy nation. We cannot ignore the plight of our neighbours, because if we do, they will come to our doorstep. This investment is not only a moral obligation but the sensible thing to do if we are to ensure the long-term prosperity of our country as well as theirs.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr McCann]

I am happy to answer that. The International Development Select Committee was in India last year, so it knows that, as the Secretary of State for International Development would confirm, 800 million people who live there are surviving on less than $2 a day, which is an important point. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend asks from a sedentary position why it has nuclear capability. Well, any country faced with threats on both sides of its borders is likely to think that nuclear weapons are a necessary safeguard. I saw some of the poorest people on the planet when we visited India, and I do not believe that we should resile from giving money to that nation.

I was saying that we generate £8 billion a year from South Korea and that this will grow by £500 million every year, and I was making the point that the UK aid budget currently sits at £7.8 billion a year. Some might legitimately argue that legislation is irrelevant because the money will be spent anyway. Some might say that the manifesto commitment was ducked by coalition parties because of the fear of a backlash from some of those sitting on the blue side of the Government Benches. That commitment should not have been ducked. Not only did all three main parties make that commitment in their manifestos but, even more importantly, our commitment sent a message around the world—that the UK was prepared to be bold, which could encourage others to be equally bold and to walk in our footsteps to reach the 0.7% figure. As the hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell said, we have been trying to reach that commitment for the last 40 years.

“A single event can shape our lives or change the course of history.”

Those are the words of the award-winning author, Deepak Chopra. We should heed those words rather than those of my e-mail friend, Mr Ronald Hunter, who Members will know sends us regular e-mail correspondence.

Just as we face the challenge of tackling poverty across the globe, so we still face unresolved tensions in the middle east. There is no other subject that can lead to such a swift loss of perspective in debate. It has the ability to unite those who do not normally see eye to eye, while simultaneously disuniting those who normally do so. I should register the fact that I am the vice-chair of Labour Friends of Israel. Holding that title, however, does not make me oblivious or ignorant of, or unsympathetic to, the Palestinian cause. On the contrary, I support it. I would like to take the opportunity to pay tribute to Lord Glenamara who, sadly, passed away recently. As the vice-chair of Labour Friends of Israel, I and all those we work with owe a great debt of gratitude to Edward Short. We owe him a great debt of gratitude for his steadfast support for both Israel and LFI over many years. I never had the pleasure of meeting Edward Short, but from talking to colleagues it was clear he made a big and impressive impact and will leave a long legacy. As Chief Whip under Harold Wilson, he fought hard to marshal a majority of just five, commanding respect; and now that we are, regrettably, in opposition, we rely heavily on Short money, which Lord Glenamara first proposed—a vital innovation for allowing Oppositions to hold Governments to account.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Slightly earlier, the hon. Gentleman referred to the figure of 0.7% of GDP going on international aid. Does he agree that it is important that we as parliamentarians keep reiterating that figure to our constituents? When people complain to me about our spending on international aid and I tell them it is only 0.7% of our overall GDP, they realise it is a very modest amount.

[Mr McCann]

I entirely agree: that is a modest amount for a developed country to pay to ensure starving people across the world can expect to receive food and drugs. Only a few weeks ago, I and some other Members visited Zambia and Malawi, and saw the difference malaria and AIDS drugs were making to families.

Returning to the question of the middle east, the Israelis and Palestinians have in both recent and distant history been subjected to vicious attacks and calumnies, but while attending a Westminster Hall debate on Israel and the middle east peace process just a few weeks ago, I was struck by the awesome futility of it all. LFI promotes and supports a two-state solution to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Let me turn to the next part of the LFI mission statement. I support the establishment of a viable Palestinian state, and I also support Israel being recognised and secure within its own borders. We all know that there are issues that have to be tackled, such as the definition of the borders and the questions of illegal settlements, returnees, Jerusalem and Temple Mount, and it is more imperative than ever that we tackle them.

Welcome though the Arab spring was, and is, for democracy in the region, it has thrown up more questions than answers. The barbaric treatment of Syrians at the hands of their own Government continues and, of course, there is Iran. Iran’s pursuit of nuclear weapons, its support for Hamas and terror in general, its refusal to accept the will of the UN, its holocaust denial and its anti-Semitism, means it is a spark that could ignite the powder keg of the middle east. Therefore, has there ever been a more important time to solve the conundrum of Israel and Palestine? Yes, we should remain resolutely focused on challenging Iran and its illegal nuclear programme, using sanctions and taking no options off the table, but we must also be clear that, given the ongoing turmoil in the middle east, Israelis and Palestinians need more than ever the security that only they can give to each other. Has there ever been a more important time for the UK, the colonial architect of many of the problems that exist, to take bold steps to help the parties reach a solution?

Many have tried and failed: Carter, Clinton, Begin, Sadat, Arafat. There has been partial success at best, close calls, nascent steps, but never a final settlement. Yet perhaps we now have an opportunity to make progress, with Netanyahu’s coalition holding 94 of the 120 Knesset seats. Reaching a peace agreement with the Palestinians must be first and foremost on the Israeli national agenda. If he succeeds, Netanyahu will be hailed as a leader who delivered his people true liberty. If he squanders the opportunity, he could be remembered as a Prime Minister who took his people to the brink of disaster. However, just as we played our part in the middle east in our colonial years—drawing lines on maps that have created so many problems—so we must play our part in the pursuit of peace.

If we analyse the positions of parliamentarians, we can see that we are as guilty as the main protagonists of reverting to type, trying to trump each other with accusations of which side committed the worst atrocity. All I know is that by continuing to participate in such futile arguments, we only guarantee that there will be more such arguments in the future. We can choose to pore over the history of this part of the world, from the early Israelites to the Ottoman-Turkish rule, but where will that get us? Perhaps yesterday’s deal to end Palestinian hunger strikes in Israeli jails offers us hope that the new Israeli coalition knows what it takes to get deals done.

North Africa and the Near and Middle East

Daniel Kawczynski Excerpts

Monday 28th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

I did have discussions on that in Mauritania, as well as on my visits to Morocco and Algeria on the same trip. The hon. Gentleman will be well acquainted with the position of successive British Governments on this matter. We encourage Morocco and the Polisario Front to reach a mutually acceptable and lasting political solution, which provides for the self-determination of the people of the Western Sahara, and we support the work of Ambassador Ross in trying to make progress in that regard. I had plentiful discussions on that long-standing problem with all the Governments in the region.

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

When my right hon. Friend was in Mauritania, I hope he had a chance to listen to its concerns about European Union vessels fishing off the Mauritania coast, raping the sea there, and about the EU not financing some of the projects it promised to fund in Mauritania.

[Mr Hague]

My hon. Friend was, I think, the first Member of Parliament to visit Mauritania in a long time, and he is right to bring attention to that issue. On my visit, we were discussing regional security issues however, so we did not get into the detail of the fishing arrangements, but of course we want them to be resolved to the satisfaction of the countries in the region.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hague]

Yes, my hon. Friend is absolutely right about that. Members on all sides will be concerned by reports of the abuse of detainees and of other human rights violations. I raised the issue with the new Prime Minister of Libya when I spoke to him 10 days ago. It is important that the Government’s commitment to uphold human rights is translated into visible action, and we look to them to do that. There are positive signs, as I was saying, that the new Government will be built on human rights and the rule of law. The new Government includes five women, two of whom are Ministers heading the Departments for Health and Social Affairs, respectively. Libya has also now resumed its seat on the UN Human Rights Council.

The Government face urgent challenges, in addition to the one that we have just mentioned, to ensure law and order, control weaponry and integrate revolutionary fighters into the security forces or help them to find other employment. The capture of Saif al-Islam was a significant moment which will help to bring the whole Gaddafi era to a close. The Libyan authorities have committed themselves to ensuring that he receives a fair trial and have indicated their preference for a trial in Libya, which is provided for in the Rome statute. We will urge them to co-operate with the International Criminal Court, as indeed they have said they will do.

Libyans are not alone, of course, in wishing to ensure accountability for crimes attributed to the Gaddafi regime. We, too, wish to see the killers of WPC Yvonne Fletcher brought to justice, and the resolution of other issues that have scarred lives and our relations with Libya, including the Lockerbie bombing and Gaddafi’s support for IRA terrorism. There is no expiry date for such crimes, and we will work to support British nationals seeking justice and closure for these terrible episodes.

We will be a strong partner with the new Libya, working to build a better future for Libyans and strong bilateral relations. We will work together in a range of areas including education, migration, trade and investment and security co-operation. It will take time to cement Libya’s transition from 42 years of dictatorial rule, but the House and our country can be proud of Britain’s role in saving lives and helping to bring about this historic change.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Will my right hon. Friend give me an assurance that his Department is doing everything possible to lobby the Government of Niger to hand over the remaining Gaddafi loyalists who have sought sanctuary in that country?

[Mr Hague]

We have done that. The Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire, in particular has been in direct contact with Ministers in Niger, and we have reminded them and other countries in the region of their international responsibilities, which they have assured us they will live up to.

The progress that Libya is making stands in stark contrast to the repression in Syria. The toll of more than 3,500 lost lives since March this year is truly appalling. The UN commission of inquiry report issued today highlights the shocking actions carried out by the Assad regime against its own civilian population, including summary executions, arbitrary arrests, enforced disappearances, torture, sexual violence and the violation of children’s rights. I welcome yesterday’s unprecedented decision by the Arab League to impose sanctions on Syria and seek UN support to address the situation. The decision by Russia and China to block Security Council action on 4 October was utterly wrong and, in my view, has been confirmed as misguided by everything that has happened in Syria subsequently.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Malcolm Rifkind]

I was coming to that point. The hon. Gentleman is correct. There is something else that Jordan and Morocco have in common: both the King of Jordan and the King of Morocco claim descent from the Prophet, and many of their people accept the legitimacy of that claim. Furthermore, the King of Saudi Arabia does not call himself “King of Saudi Arabia” but “Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques”—Mecca and Medina—to emphasise, as he would argue, his spiritual not simply secular role. But the hon. Gentleman is correct: the other phenomenon in many of these monarchies is that they have been prepared, however hesitantly, to begin the process of reform, which might help them to deal with their long-term problem.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I am pleased that my right hon. and learned Friend is raising this issue. I would add that there are many people in Libya who wish for a restoration of their constitutional monarchy and very much regret that the national transitional council is proposing a presidential system without any plebiscite to find out what the people wish.

[Sir Malcolm Rifkind]

As it happens, I have met the Crown Prince of Libya in the past few months. It is, however, up to the Libyan people. They were pretty good at getting rid of Gaddafi, and if they want a restoration of the monarchy, it should not be too difficult for them to insist at least on a plebiscite so that the Libyans can decide.

I raise this question not simply to praise the monarchies. In the longer term, they face exactly the problem that the north African countries and Syria face now. They do, however, have a window of opportunity. Their peoples are saying, “We, too, want more liberal, accountable government and the rule of law, just as the rest of the world has increasingly had it. Because we accept your legitimacy and because we acknowledge that you are introducing reform, however tentatively, we are prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt for the time being.” However, I predict that if, in five to 10 years from now, not much real progress is made—if the kings, emirs and sheiks remain autocratic rulers in all but name—then revolution will come to those countries as well.

The crucial country is Saudi Arabia, where even that tentative process of genuine parliamentary reform has not even begun yet—it will always be slower for all the reasons that the House is familiar with. Saudi Arabia needs to embark on that process. Prince Nayef—a man who does not have the liberal inclinations of King Abdullah—has been chosen as the new crown prince, although whether he will be more pragmatic when he one day becomes a monarch remains to be seen. However, Saudi Arabia needs to realise that it cannot simply be immune from this extraordinary revolutionary fervour, which has affected Saudis as well as those in other Arab countries.

--- Later in debate ---

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

As chairman of the all-party group on Libya, I have campaigned for many years on that country, particularly with regard to human rights there. I was invited to visit Benghazi this week by the national transitional council, but I politely declined that invitation because I am very concerned that the people of Libya have not been consulted about the sort of constitutional make-up their country should have.

If we bear in mind the 42 years of brutal tyrannical oppression that Libya went through, it is not unreasonable for the authorities to ask the people of Libya for their opinion as to how their country should be formed and what constitution they should have. The NTC has decided that there will be a presidential type of system, yet many friends of mine in Libya talk of growing public demonstrations throughout that country in support of Crown Prince Muhammad, the exiled crown prince of Libya who has lived in London since Colonel Gaddafi expelled him and his father.

I declare an interest. I have got to know Crown Prince Muhammad very well over a certain period of time. He is a close personal friend of mine. I believe him to be a man of great integrity and honour. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) indicated, many of the monarchies throughout the Arab world have not had the levels of instability that other Arab countries have had. The monarch is very important in this regard.

We must not forget that 30,000 people died in Libya—some estimates put the figure as high as 35,000 or 40,000—to liberate their country from the despot.

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

My hon. Friend raises the issue of the Libyan monarchy. How likely is it, in his opinion, that the institution of monarchy will be resurrected in Libya? He refers to his friends, but does he really think that is a plausible outcome?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Only two countries in the world have gone back to having a monarchy—I am sure that my hon. Friend knows which. One is Spain, as you rightly mouthed just now, Mr Deputy Speaker, and the other is Cambodia, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Laura Sandys) indicates.

[Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)]

What about Great Britain?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I meant foreign countries. Spain and Cambodia are the two I was told about. To answer my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng), it is not necessarily probable that the Libyan people would vote for a constitutional monarch—it is a possibility, but not a probability—but none the less they should be consulted, rather than the national transitional council stating unilaterally that there should be a presidential system.

I move on now to the trial of Saif al-Islam Gaddafi. I would never dream of defending Gaddafi or any of his family, sycophants or supporters, but I think it is very important that this man gets a fair trial. Some of the Sunday newspapers have reported that people were saying that, if he was not found guilty and hanged, they would leave the country. Our newspapers must do everything possible not to prejudice the trial, because no matter what the individual may be guilty of, it is extremely important that he is given a fair trial. I very much hope that the Libyan authorities—I make this point to the Minister—will allow International Criminal Court lawyers to be present throughout the trial.

I was glad to hear from the Foreign Secretary that the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), has raised with Niger the importance of its acquiescing in international standards and handing over remnants of the Gaddafi regime and family members who have sought sanctuary in that country, as they have done in Algeria.

[Bob Stewart]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I will in a moment.

I will move on to the rendition of Libyan citizens to Libya when Gaddafi was in power. The shadow Foreign Secretary did not mention Libya once in this whole conversation, and one wonders why. Of course, I fought vehemently against the previous Government’s amazing cosying up to Colonel Gaddafi. I think that they must be embarrassed about the extraordinary rapprochement that Mr Blair and his successor had with that brutal despot—so much for Robin Cook’s ethical foreign policy, which was so loudly trumpeted when Labour took office in 1997. I have listened to senior Labour figures stand on the Government side of the House and say that they knew nothing about the rendition of those people to Gaddafi’s Libya. I found that absolutely extraordinary. They say that the previous Labour Government knew nothing about sending those people back, ultimately to be tortured or done away with by Gaddafi, so they must be claiming that our security forces, off their own bat, unilaterally decided to engage with Libyan security forces and were responsible for sending those people to Libya without Government approval. I simply do not believe that. If it were true, I would be extremely concerned that our security forces had done such a thing. That is why I am calling for an investigation. I do not want it brushed under the carpet.

[Bob Stewart]

My hon. Friend has moved on from what I was going to say, which is that the International Criminal Court is responsible for trying people only when it would not be possible in their own country. I have given evidence in several ICC trials and am delighted that Saif al-Islam Gaddafi will be tried in Libya. I am happy for ICC lawyers to witness it, but they should not run it.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I agree; I said merely that I hoped ICC lawyers would be able to observe the proceedings.

I have received disturbing evidence about the equipment that some of our European partners sold to the Gaddafi regime. I will not go into too many details, but it helped Colonel Gaddafi to eavesdrop on his citizens and on citizens of this country. That is something that will come out in the coming days and weeks, but I should be interested to find out from the Minister everything that was exported to Gaddafi over those 13 years and might have assisted him in oppressing his own people. Mr Blair told us that the great rapprochement and engagement in the tent in the desert were to ensure that that man gave up his weapons of mass destruction, but from recent newspaper articles we see that vast stocks of chemical weapons have been found in Libya, so Colonel Gaddafi was really just playing a game of cat and mouse with the previous Government.

I very much hope to see progress on Lockerbie now. We all know that Mr Megrahi is not solely culpable of the worst terrorist atrocity on UK soil since the second world war, so I very much hope that the Minister and the Foreign Office will do everything possible to ensure that the Libyan authorities comply fully in helping us to get to the bottom of that case—and the case of PC Yvonne Fletcher.

I turn now to Mauritania. I alluded to the fact that on a recent visit to the country, as well as meeting politicians I spent a little time standing on the coast, watching the fishermen bring in their fish. It was quite extraordinarily difficult for them to drag—literally drag—their small boats on to the sand to get their catch.

The European Union and, in particular, Spanish vessels are pillaging the waters off the coast of Mauritania, sucking out all the fish and impoverishing the lives of local fishermen. Many promises that the EU made as a result of the agreement to which I referred earlier have not been fulfilled. One was that a pier or jetty would be built near Nouakchott for the local fishermen, but that has still not been put in place, 10 years on. I raise the issue with the Minister, as I very much hope that he will use his good offices to find out what the European Union’s promise of assistance was to the local fishermen, and that he will do everything he possibly can to help them.

My trip to Mauritania was the first by a British Member of Parliament since one by the Father of the House in 1960, and the Mauritanians were so amazed by this that they laid out the red carpet. I had more than two hours with the President—[Laughter.] My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) laughs but this is a serious matter, because the people there feel neglected by the United Kingdom and wish to engage far more with us. The problem is that Governments of various political colours have neglected the whole of Francophone north Africa over the decades, and that has led to a lack of engagement in terms of trade and co-operation. Luckily, I studied French—that was my degree—at university, so I could converse quite happily with the Mauritanians in French and had to translate for the rest of my delegation, but we need more engagement.

On my other visit, to Tunisia, I found when I met representatives of its chambers of commerce that only 52 British companies trade there, in contrast with 1,700 French companies—52 to 1,700. There are very similar statistics regarding Morocco. I have met Lord Green, the new Minister for Trade and Investment, who does an excellent job, but I very much hope that somebody who is a fluent French speaker will be appointed to lead a massive export drive to the Francophone countries.

[Rory Stewart]

Would my hon. Friend perhaps consider himself for that job?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I am far too junior and inexperienced, but I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s comment.

I feel passionately about Saudi Arabia. As chairman of the all-party group on Saudi Arabia, I am pleased to inform the House that next month I will lead the largest ever parliamentary delegation to the kingdom, with 16 Members of Parliament, including many Labour MPs, as well as Conservatives. I am looking forward to that trip immensely. I have been battling against extraordinary ignorance about and prejudice against Saudi Arabia for many years, and that includes ignorance and prejudice from British Members of Parliament.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I am very pleased that the hon. Gentleman is going to Saudi Arabia with a substantial delegation. I hope that it will involve a substantial number of women Members of this House and that it will be able to meet women’s organisations in Saudi Arabia.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

The hon. Gentleman will be pleased to hear that there are more women going on the trip than men, which is a specific wish of mine. [Interruption] No, not for that reason. We will certainly be meeting various organisations that deal with women’s rights in the kingdom. I will send the hon. Gentleman a copy of the report after the visit, if he wishes.

There is tremendous anger and hostility towards Saudi Arabia in this country. On one occasion I was sitting in the Smoking Room waiting for a vote, and I asked 15 Tory MPs what their views were on Saudi Arabia, and every single one made very hostile statements about the country. That really upset me, and I did not understand it. I think we have a Guardian-reading liberal elite who want to denigrate Saudi Arabia at every opportunity. The BBC, with its left-wing bias and determination not to report anything positive from Saudi Arabia, also contributes to the extraordinary drip, drip effect of negative press that it gets in this country.

Of course there are huge problems in Saudi Arabia, and of course there are things that we in the United Kingdom disagree with and want changing, but there has been progress, slow though it is. It is extremely important that people like me and others who are interested in Saudi Arabia engage with the country and, specifically, with people who are trying to reform it, who are democrats, and who are passionate about making sure that it improves its human rights.

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

Is my hon. Friend conscious of any attempts on the part of the Saudi Government to reform, if only at their own pace, and to bring in a more liberal regime, which we all hope for?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Yes, and we will be discussing that with them.

A delegation of members of the Shura Council recently visited us and spent a whole week here trying to find out how our Parliament works, how our Select Committees work, and how we hold Ministers to account. They talked to me about their desire for reform within the Shura Council and their determination that there should be elections to that body instead of its members being appointed by the King. Because they are very interested in learning from our experience of democracy, they insisted on spending the day with me in my constituency and finding out how the Member of Parliament is held to account by his constituents, how he interacts with the local council, and so on.

The Minister will know that the Foreign Secretary has described Saudi Arabia as a strategic ally of the United Kingdom and that our relations will be cemented and even further prioritised. I hope that he will confirm that.

The Prime Minister and the European Union talked about a Marshall aid package for Tunisia and Egypt following the revolutions in those countries. I have not heard much subsequently about that huge plan, which apparently involved up to €1 billion. I hope that it will be extended to Libya. I would like to hear what progress there is on that. I hope that some of the money will be used to facilitate British companies in trading with the region.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Mr Gale) is the chairman of the all-party group on Tunisia. He cannot be here, so he asked me to raise the importance of tourism to these countries. I hope that the Minister will agree that we should encourage citizens to visit Tunisia at the earliest opportunity, because it depends so much on tourism.

I will finish by saying that on Wednesday I will be hosting a reception in the House of Commons for the fifth birthday of al-Jazeera English. It is a broadcaster of immense pedigree. I trust al-Jazeera far more than the BBC, regrettably, for impartiality and objective broadcasting. More than 160 people are coming to the event. Because of the strike, I will be pouring the tea and serving the cake myself as we cannot get any catering staff to do so. Hon. Members are very welcome to join us on the Terrace on Wednesday.

Lieutenant Colonel Chris Parker, who came to see me, said that when he was chief of staff in Basra, they were watching al-Jazeera on television and it was the only broadcaster that was broadcasting from Basra. They saw a report on al-Jazeera which said that some of the British shelling was hitting civilians in a residential area. As a result of watching that broadcast, the artillery was stopped and innocent civilian lives were saved. We have a lot to thank al-Jazeera for.

I shall leave it at that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rory Stewart]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point, but the problem is not our desire or our commitment to the multilateral system but our capacity and what we can actually do. Our engagement with the United Nations and NATO and our various grand views about globalisation and economics lead us to believe that we should be involved in all those areas, but what capacity do we have to deliver, what understanding do we have of those specific countries and what power do we have in our hands to do one half of the things that have been discussed in the Chamber today?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Surely my hon. Friend must acknowledge and accept that the recent intervention in Libya was a great success. If it were not for our Prime Minister getting that resolution and pushing it through the UN and past President Obama’s reticence, the bloodbath that Gaddafi would have pursued would not have been avoided.

[Rory Stewart]

I agree absolutely, yet it was, to quote the Duke of Wellington, a “damn close run thing”. We stretched our military sinews and our diplomatic resources hard to achieve that success in Libya. We did it by pulling Dominic Asquith in from Egypt and John Jenkins; we gathered almost all the Arabists at our command to deal with one single country of 6 million people in north Africa.

Middle East and North Africa

Daniel Kawczynski Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

The difference of judgment is on whether voting for the application in the current situation at the UN Security Council would help a return to negotiations. Our view, and the view of the Government of France and many other Governments, is that it would not do so—that such a vote, if we all voted in that way, would reduce the incentives for Palestinians, and the willingness of Israelis, to engage successfully in negotiations. We differ only on that point. I entirely respect the legitimate view that we should vote in favour, for all the reasons the right hon. Lady and others have put, but our overall judgment is that a return to negotiations is best served by the course I have set out.

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

This year, although on separate occasions, my right hon. Friend and I were the first British MPs to visit Mauritania since its independence in 1960, when the Father of the House visited. This shows the previous Government’s lack of engagement with Francophone north Africa. I very much hope that as a result of my right hon. Friend’s visit we will give due consideration to establishing an embassy in Nouakchott and issuing a speedy invite for the President of Mauritania to come and meet the Prime Minister.

UK Relations: Libya

Daniel Kawczynski Excerpts

Tuesday 1st November 2011 Westminster Hall

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

Thank you for calling me to speak in the debate, Mr Gray. Some time ago, the late Robin Cook—a man of considerable intellect and experience—spoke about an ethical foreign policy. This new drive, which would shape Britain’s engagement with countries around the world, would be based on our ability to engage in a more ethical way in the modern era, thus protecting our image and branding throughout the international community. Was that a naive objective? As I say, it was formulated and proposed by somebody with considerable experience, and it was certainly a commendable aspiration.

However, following the disastrous engagement in Iraq, and the illegal war that the Labour party pursued there, Mr Blair had a problem with his party and the country. He therefore sought out somebody who would enable him to show the world that although he was making war by force, he could also make peace through international diplomacy. Who better to choose than an isolated figure, ridiculed in the Arab League, with no friends? Mr Blair chose Colonel Gaddafi, who was so bereft of friends that he could be enticed into the little deal—the little charade or rapprochement—that Mr Blair pursued with him.

We were told at the time that as a quid pro quo for this rapprochement, the weapons of mass destruction that Colonel Gaddafi had amassed would be handed over and sent for evaluation and, ultimately, dismantling somewhere in North Carolina in the United States of America. I do not know about you, Mr Gray, but I do not know what those weapons of mass destruction consisted of, how many there were, or what their quality and calibre was. For all I know, Gaddafi may have had just a pea-shooter; his total inability to defend himself in the recent war certainly shows a rather chaotic approach to military strategy.

I did not want rapprochement with Gaddafi, purely because I knew from many friends in Libya, and from having visited the country, of the appalling human rights abuses that this tyrant perpetrated against his people over decades. I hope Members will agree that that does not fit in with the ethical foreign policy espoused with such fanfare by the previous Labour Government.

I have a gripe with not just the Labour Government, but the Scottish National party Government in Scotland. When they were about to release the convicted bomber al-Megrahi, I pleaded with Alex Salmond and the Scottish Justice Secretary not to do so. I also pleaded with the former Labour Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), on the Floor of the House to intervene with the Scottish Government to prevent the bomber being released. Of course, he told me, “This is nothing to do with us. This is a purely Scottish matter.” Despite the fact that releasing al-Megrahi could have had huge ramifications for the United Kingdom’s foreign policy, the previous Labour Government said, “It’s nothing to do with us.” I am absolutely convinced that our current Prime Minister would not have acted in such a way.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend regret that the Scottish Government have not apologised for what happened, given that although their action was taken on the assumption that the man had less than six months to live, he is, as far as I know, still alive?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Yes, I totally concur with my hon. Friend. Indeed, I think that we were told that he had less than three months, not six months, to live, but he is still alive somewhere in Tripoli, two years on.

So passionately did I feel about the release of al-Megrahi that I even travelled to Qatar for an international conference. In front of a totally Arab audience in debates in Doha, I and others won the debate on a motion saying that the house deplored the release of the Lockerbie bomber. A young girl from the United Arab Emirates told me, “On the one hand, you expect us to join you in your war against international terrorism, but on the other hand, you are releasing a convicted bomber who was involved in the worst terrorist atrocity committed on UK soil since the second world war.” That was a very salient, pertinent point, and it certainly stuck in my mind.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend for securing this important debate. Does he agree that the release of al-Megrahi marked the low point in the previous Government’s appeasement of Gaddafi? Does he also agree that they were hiding behind the fig leaf of devolution, given all the revelations that there have been about the surrounding commercial deals between them and Libya at the time?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I totally concur with my hon. Friend. The United Kingdom’s reputation was greatly damaged at the time. As I suggested, other Arab League leaders were so contemptuous of this bizarre, tyrannical clown that they told me and others, “If the United Kingdom cannot grapple effectively with Gaddafi, who can they effectively engage with and have a meaningful relationship with?”.

I stopped the previous Labour Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member for South Shields (David Miliband)—the man who aspired to lead the Labour party—in the Members’ Lobby to ask him about PC Yvonne Fletcher. The Foreign Office had ignored her relatives for years—letter after letter had gone ignored—so to get him finally to meet them, I had to write an open letter on Conservative Home demanding that he did so. Before I did that, however, I stopped him in the Members’ Lobby and asked him to raise these issues and to assist me in fighting for PC Yvonne Fletcher and the victims of the IRA, who had suffered because of Gaddafi’s funding of it. To quote him verbatim, he said, “Don’t rock the boat now, Kawczynski. We’re in very delicate negotiations with Colonel Gaddafi—rapprochement. We don’t want you rocking the boat.” He basically told me to shut up and not to try to stir things up. That is why I believe his judgment was wrong, and why I commend the Labour party on not electing him as leader; I do not think that he is fit to be the leader of the Labour party, given his action then.

I hope that the shadow Minister will agree that this was not Labour’s best moment or its finest hour. How would the Libyan people view us now, if all they had to go on was the incredible rapprochement between Mr Blair and Colonel Gaddafi, and all the pictures of them smiling together in the tent where they met? I contrast that with the superb leadership that our current Prime Minister has shown in helping to secure UN resolution 1973 in order to ensure that NATO’s intervention to protect the citizens of Libya was legal.

I remember going back to my apartment after a late-night vote in February, and watching Colonel Gaddafi on Sky News promising that he would hunt the rebels down city by city, street by street and wardrobe by wardrobe—that was the expression he used. He promised the world that a bloodbath would ensue on the streets of Benghazi and Tobruk if he were given an unfettered opportunity to pursue that. That night I texted the Prime Minister’s Parliamentary Private Secretary three or four times, pleading with him to take the message to the Prime Minister that we must intervene to help those courageous people in Libya, fighting for their freedom against a brutal tyrant. I thank the Prime Minister for taking the decision to support the people, and I rejoice in, and thank God for, the fact that not a single member of British service personnel lost their life. If we contrast that with previous military operations, we see that it is something for which we should all be extremely grateful.

Our interaction with Libya reminds me of something that the Prime Minister said at the Conservative party conference:

“It’s not the size of the dog in the fight—it’s the size of the fight in the dog”.

That encapsulates how, despite the extraordinary problems that this country has—the huge economic deficit that the Labour party so kindly bequeathed us—we can still intervene around the world and help people who are worse off than us, and protect them when they struggle for the freedom that we have enjoyed for such a long time.

Among the things that I have done as a Member of Parliament in the past six years, one of the most pertinent to this debate and the most solemn has been to stand in the British war cemetery in Tripoli. It has beautiful green grass, immaculately cut, and beautiful headstones, immaculately washed. It contrasts with the surrounding district, which is rather shabby and dusty. I stood for hours looking at the headstones of our young service personnel who died so tragically, liberating Tripoli during the second world war. It is deeply striking that so many of them were so young: 22 or 23—some as young as 20. They all died in January 1942 in the liberation of Tripoli, and there is row after row of headstones. I hope that those sacrifices during the second world war, and what we have done, today show the people of Libya that they can trust and depend on us. I pay tribute to a dear friend of mine from my constituency—Mr Ted Sharp, who was a desert rat. I have spent many hours listening to his stories of how there were no food supplies at one stage; some of the desert rats were like skeletons. They went through terrible suffering to free Libya.

The manner in which Colonel Gaddafi died rather shocked me, but I did not shed many tears for his passing. The way in which he was killed shows how despised he was by the Libyan people, but I was disappointed that he was not captured and put on trial. It would have given me great satisfaction to see him atone for the brutality he meted out to his own people for so long.

[Robert Halfon]

Does my hon. Friend agree that what happened to Gaddafi and the manner of his death make it all the more important that his family be put on trial, both in Libya and the International Court of Justice, to ensure that the rule of law is followed, and that those people atone properly for their crimes?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

At the point of capture, it is difficult to control forces that were not particularly under control in the first place; the testosterone is flowing. People probably just wanted to get rid of Gaddafi there and then. I do not blame those soldiers who killed Gaddafi. Like my hon. Friend, I regret it, but I understand exactly what was going on. They were in the height of battle, their testosterone was flowing, and they just went for it and killed him, because he was the tyrant.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I agree. In fact, my understanding is that one of the people involved in his death was from Misrata, and his sister had been raped by Libyan soldiers loyal to Colonel Gaddafi, so I concur with my hon. Friend.

To return to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), I have tabled an early-day motion on the issue, calling on the Government of Niger to respect international law and acquiesce in ensuring that the relevant members of the Gaddafi clan—up to 30 loyalists are allegedly in Niger—are extradited to the International Court of Justice at The Hague. My first question to the Minister is this: what discussions is his Department having with the Government of Niger—and with the Governments of Mali and Algeria, where other Gaddafi loyalists are said to be seeking sanctuary? The most important of those loyalists is, of course, Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, who apparently is hovering somewhere around the Libya-Niger border. I hope that that man will not be killed. I would like him to be brought to justice in the Court at The Hague, and would like to hear what the Minister is doing to interact with the Government of Niger, and others, to achieve that.

[Bob Stewart]

I apologise for making a second intervention, but I have given evidence in five trials at The Hague, and the writ of the International Criminal Court runs only when a national jurisdiction has indicated that it has no intention of trying individuals who have committed war crimes in its territory. I should like the Gaddafi family and their supporters to go back to Libya. There will be a problem, because of the death penalty, but that is what I should like, because it is how the Court should work. A national jurisdiction tries those in question first, and if that does not work, they go to The Hague. I would prefer those people to go back to Tripoli.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

That is an interesting point, and the Minister will have to deal with the Government’s position on that. Do we want those people sent to The Hague, or should they go to Libya? I defer to the experience of my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) in those matters.

I am very supportive of the national transitional council, but I am deeply concerned—I feel passionate about it—that there has been no plebiscite. No referendum has been announced on the sort of constitution that the country will have. We have been told that there will be parliamentary elections in eight months’ time, and presidential elections in 18 months. I am extremely concerned that the NTC has already unilaterally decided to state that there will be presidential elections. I think that the last thing the Libyan people want is another Head of State who is a politician. They need to be consulted, so that they can decide what sort of constitution they want. I think that they want a unifying figure: someone who commands respect throughout the country, who is untainted by any previous association with the Gaddafi regime, and who can bring the whole country together in a unifying way. I am not embarrassed to put those issues forward; I do not flinch from doing so. Yes, it is a matter for the Libyan people, but our country has put our service personnel’s lives at risk, and we have a right to advise and caution the NTC in that regard.

[Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. He is making a fairly straightforward case about international justice and constitutional law, which I follow and by and large agree with. Is he concerned, as I am, about the stories coming out regarding atrocities committed by anti-Gaddafi forces?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Yes. The hon. Gentleman makes a good point; there are allegations of atrocities on both sides. My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham talked about testosterone and the desire to take revenge, and we have heard that serious human rights violations and massacres have taken place, such as the shooting of up to 50 Gaddafi loyalists with their hands tied behind their backs in Sirte. The hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) raises an important point, and I would like to hear from the Minister what the Government’s attitude is to ensuring that people are brought to justice.

I believe that the unifying figure who is untainted by Gaddafi and who commands respect in Libya is Crown Prince Mohammed, the heir to the Libyan throne. I have had the great honour and privilege of meeting him; he has lived in London since Gaddafi exiled him and his father from Libya. Gaddafi burned their house down in front of them and then banished them, and they have lived in London ever since. Crown Prince Mohammed’s father subsequently died, but His Royal Highness continues to live in London. Having met him on numerous occasions, I consider him to be, if I may say so, a friend. He is a tremendous counsellor, and I respect him greatly. I have met many leaders around the world in the past six years, but few of them have impressed me as much as Crown Prince Mohammed.

A few weeks ago, I raised directly with the Prime Minister how important it is for him, or at least one of his aides, to meet Crown Prince Mohammed to seek his guidance and views. Foreign Office officials have met Crown Prince Mohammed, but to my knowledge no Foreign Office Minister has yet met him, which I am concerned about. I understand that the Foreign Office does not want to be seen to be manipulating the situation in Tripoli—of course it is for the Libyan people to make decisions—but a member of the el-Senussi family who has extraordinary respect in his own country is living in London; the least the Foreign Office can do is engage with him effectively and properly and find out from him what is happening on the streets of Libya.

The Foreign Office will of course be told a lot by the national transitional council about what the council wants the Foreign Office to know, but I am hearing from Libya—from town councils and the people on the streets of Tobruk, Benghazi and other cities—that many people are holding exhibitions about the history of Libya, which is something that they were deprived of under Gaddafi. Many people are holding exhibitions about the royal family, the late King Idris and Crown Prince Mohammed.

The Foreign Office must be careful. Having spent so much taxpayer money on pursuing the liberation of Libya, we want to ensure that the Libyan people are consulted, and that their will comes through. If they wish to have a constitutional monarchy, as I believe they do, that should be put to them in a referendum, so that they can decide of their own accord, rather than the unelected NTC unilaterally deciding that the Libyan people should have a politician as their Head of State in perpetuity.

[Bob Stewart]

I, too, have met Crown Prince Mohammed, although he is not as big a friend to me as he is to my hon. Friend. I know that Crown Prince Mohammed has had contact with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, so it is fully aware of the situation. I subscribe totally to my hon. Friend’s contention that there should be a general election before a presidential one, and I, too, would like someone such as Crown Prince Mohammed to become Libya’s Head of State. However, it cannot be done just like that; the Libyan people have to ask for it. That is fair.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I agree with my hon. Friend, but after 42 years of absolute and tyrannical despotism, it is not unreasonable to have a referendum or plebiscite. Let the people decide. Give them the options. We in this country had a ludicrous referendum on changing the voting system, which I was furious about, as chairman of the all-party group for the promotion of first past the post.

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is straying off the subject.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Sorry, Mr Gray. I had to get that one in; I could not resist. If we can have referendums on trivia such as changing the voting system, the people of Libya should be given the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to decide what constitution they want. I thank God that we have such a wonderful Head of State as Her Majesty. Some of the most stable countries in the world, such as Denmark, have monarchies. Interestingly, even in the Arab world, people have not rebelled or shown hostility to Governments in countries that have monarchies. I therefore think that monarchy is a stabilising factor.

I would like Niger to hand over Saif al-Islam and others associated with Gaddafi’s regime either to Libya, as my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham suggested, or the Court in The Hague. I want Saif al-Islam to be captured alive, and I hope that the Government will give me their perspective on that. Do they, too, want him captured alive, so that he can account for some of the crimes committed?

I would like the Government to help the Libyan authorities to find all the money stolen—the billions that have been squirreled away in vaults and bank accounts all over the world, from Liechtenstein to the Cayman Islands. Given the expertise that we have in our country, we should offer the Libyan Government some assistance. London is the financial capital of the world, and we can play a part in helping the Libyan authorities to find all the frozen and other assets that have hitherto not been traced.

One of the most important aspects of the matter is compensation for IRA victims. Colonel Gaddafi provided the IRA with Semtex for many years. I was slightly concerned to read a report in The Sunday Times last week that a private law firm was already asking the NTC to hand over £450 million in compensation. I have two concerns about that. First, that is unduly hasty. Although I am desperate for the families of IRA victims to receive compensation, it might be slightly too hasty to start asking for £450 million in compensation when Libya is practically on its knees, with limited electricity, water and other supplies, even though I would support such a request in the future.

Secondly—I shall emphasise this time and again—I certainly do not want a private law firm to be responsible for bilateral negotiations with the Libyan Government on compensation for IRA victims. It is not for a private law firm to undertake that huge job. I want every single penny piece of that money, when it is handed over, to go to the victims of IRA atrocities. I do not want a private law firm to get £1 million, £2 million, £10 million or £15 million—according to the various reports—of that money. Every single penny piece has to go to the victims. I have raised that point with the Prime Minister in a private meeting, and I expect to hear from the Foreign Office that it will take responsibility for the negotiations to ensure that the private law firm does not make any profit out of the case. We, the state, sacrificed hundreds of millions of pounds and put the lives of our service personnel at risk to liberate Libya, and it is for us to ensure that compensation goes to the victims of IRA atrocities. We do not want some private law firm dishing out the money and making the profits.

Christmas eve will mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Libya. I would love to attend the celebrations, but obviously I must be with my family at that time. I am sure that the Libyans would greatly appreciate it if somebody from the Foreign Office went to Tripoli to celebrate their 60th anniversary of freedom.

Will the Minister tell us what will happen about the prosecution of the killer of PC Yvonne Fletcher? Are we happy for this matter to be brought to justice in a Libyan court, or do we want the killer to be extradited to the United Kingdom? In the past, I have said that British justice could not be attained in a Libyan court under Gaddafi’s jurisdiction. During the Gaddafi regime, Scotland Yard had been going back and forth between Tripoli and the UK, and when it was close to getting its man, Gaddafi, in yet another game of cat and mouse, stopped issuing visas. However, things have changed, so I would be interested to hear what our line on that is.

When the new Secretary of State for Defence went to Libya, he said to British companies, “Pack your bags and come here to reconstruct Libya.” I totally agree with him; there are huge opportunities for British firms to help with the reconstruction of Libya. Will the Minister tell us what UK Trade & Investment is doing on that? I had the pleasure of meeting Lord Green, the head of UKTI, in the House of Commons recently, and he told me about some of the changes that he wants to put in place to make his organisation more effective. I would like to know exactly what is happening on the ground.

Many consultants have come to see me and have said, “Look, we have been tasked with finding various companies to do x, y and z in Libya, but we cannot find British companies to do it. The only companies that are prepared to do anything are Danish, Austrian or German, and we are desperate to find a British company to carry out the work.” British companies are hesitant about going to Libya because of security issues and other such matters. I very much regret that. We are the ones who go in and liberate the country, and then everyone else goes in and gets all the business. The British are rather circumspect about such things, but we cannot afford to be. We should not be embarrassed to go out there with our companies for the mutually beneficial reason of reconstructing the country. We must stop this British sentimentality. We must not think, “Oh no, we must not sully our fingers with the business aspects of this.”

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

I would not normally interrupt a speech at this point, but I would like to reassure my hon. Friend on this niche specific issue. Lord Green went to Libya in late September, and there have been conferences here on investment opportunities in Libya. The UKTI staff are very much part of our team at the embassy in Tripoli. I hope that efforts are being made—efforts that my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) will support—because we are well aware of the opportunities, and wish to seize them in the proper way.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I thank the Minister for that. I recently had a meeting with a lieutenant-colonel who had served in Basra. He told me that when he met Mr Blair, he said, “Okay, we brought peace to Basra, so where are all the suits?”. In other words, he wanted to know why Mr Blair had not brought in British companies to reconstruct Basra. Some of the huge problems that we have had in Iraq stem from the fact that we were too slow in bringing in British companies to reconstruct the country. However, we could not have just said, “Look, pack your bags and go to Iraq.” Many companies would have found that difficult, and we are now saying the same of Libya.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

In my constituency, there are a number of companies that are very keen to do business in the region. The trip that the Minister mentioned may have been an opportunity for them to do just that, but the incentive for British business to get involved is not fully pushed by Government. Does the hon. Gentleman feel that the Government should do more to encourage local companies, especially when so many are keen to do business?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I have had meetings with leading industrialists, and with various Army officers who have served in Iraq and other parts of the world and who have experience of such matters. We have compiled a report, which we will send to the Prime Minister and the Minister, outlining some of the things that the Government have to put in place to ensure that there is confidence, and encouragement for British companies to go out there. The French are brilliant at that; they have a body called COFACE, which I visited in Paris many years ago. It is a nationwide organisation that insures, underpins and takes some of the risk out of French companies going abroad and investing in such projects. The Government should start up a similar insurance fund. We will put in £50 million, the Libyans will put in £50 million, and we will get another few hundred million from wealthy Arab countries. We will then pool the money, and it will act as an insurance policy for British companies that are reconstructing Libya.

I will send the report to the Minister, as well as to the Prime Minister, because we must get a grip on the issue. I could tell the Minister the names of hundreds of companies that I have met in the past six months that would like to work in Libya, but do not know how to go about it. They ask me about guarantees and about what kind of political support is in place.

Yesterday, I met the Labour peer, Baroness Symons, whom I respect greatly. She said that there had been good engagement with Libya previously. I hope that the Minister is aware that the Law Society has been in Libya to help with the rule of law and arbitration. The British Council has operated in Libya, advising on issues to do with women. Welsh universities have signed memorandums of understanding with the Libyan Education Minister to work and interact with Libyan universities. The Westminster Foundation for Democracy has been helping to develop democratic institutions and civil society. Crown Agents were also in the country, working on anti-corruption measures. Those wonderful institutions were already working in Libya under Gaddafi, and I pay tribute to the previous Labour Government for getting them into the country. However, I do not know how successful those institutions were under the brutal Gaddafi regime. Certainly, now that Libya is free, I hope that the Minister will do everything possible to help the Law Society, the British Council, Welsh universities, the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, Crown Agents and others to get to Libya to underpin all that work and to help start reconstructing the country.

The European Union had negotiations with the Gaddafi regime on various trade agreements, and I hope that those are speeded up as well. Apparently, Dominic Asquith has been a representative of Her Majesty’s Government in Libya, and I am keen to know what his views are.

Libya has been a passion for me all my life. When I was growing up in Poland under the communist regime, we had nothing. The regime was brutal and tyrannical, and everything was rationed. My late uncle and his family worked in Libya, and they used to send oranges from Tripoli to Warsaw. Receiving those oranges at kindergarten was like a miraculous experience. Children in Warsaw in 1978 did not know what oranges were; we had never seen these things. We peeled the oranges delicately, we ate them, we made marmalade out of the peel, we drew them and we talked about them. They were incredible to us. Of course, most days now I peel an orange and I do not think about it, but as a child in 1978 I thought, “What sort of paradise must this be for them to have these sorts of things?”. My interest in Libya has stemmed from that early childhood experience.

I love the Libyan people and I love Libya. I am so passionate about the country, and I am so grateful that the brutal tyrant has been deposed. I look forward to the people of the UK having a very strong friendship with the people of Libya for the rest of my lifetime.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Gilbert]

The hon. Gentleman has made my point far more eloquently than me. He has also pre-empted a point that I will come on to later, which is the deweaponisation of Libya.

Overall, we need to see clear direction on the relative importance of the bilateral support to Libyan efforts. At the moment, DFID is ramping up its efforts in Libya, while the Ministry of Defence is scaling down its efforts. If we are to remain engaged in an integrated way, all Departments need to be at the table, and we need clarity from the Government about our overall objectives. How active will we be, Minister? What is good enough in terms of the peace-building effort? And is our main focus going to be trade, governance, stability or all those issues?

An example of the current confusion is the potential divergence between the DFID-led public safety efforts, which my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham has mentioned, and the MOD’s interest in the security architecture. Unless Her Majesty’s Government know what they are trying to achieve collectively in Libya, it will be hard to determine where the various pieces of the jigsaw fit together.

It is important that we are realistic about what the UN and the EU can and cannot do, and what they will and will not do, in Libya. At present, far too many assumptions are being made in Whitehall that the UN will deliver everything that we want it to deliver in the time frames required. It will not do that, particularly within the security sector. Bilateral engagement with Libya by the UK and our NATO allies will be required, but with a view to bringing in the UN, where possible and as soon as possible.

In seeking to aid Libya in its transition, we must also be mindful of how our actions are seen. We should only seek to help Libyan people at their own behest. All our stabilisation efforts must be owned by the local communities. We must never impose, nor appear to be imposing, our systems, beliefs, culture or demands upon the Libyan people. If there is to be a successful transition in Libya to a strong democratic state, it must be a transition that the Libyans themselves have decided upon. Only then will it become entrenched and real.

Of paramount importance in post-war Libya is ensuring that the very weapons used to free the people do not remain in the country long enough to enslave them once again. When a country is awash with small arms, it is at risk of descending into sectarianism, vigilantism and terror. We are already helping the national transitional council in seeking the dangerous weapons that were stockpiled by Gaddafi, and DFID is already helping with demining projects, but we must go further and encourage a much wider demilitarisation of Libya and its people.

Economically, relations between the UK and the new Libya should now move towards development support and enterprise opportunity. In order to prosper fully, Libya will require serious investment and expertise. To that end, I welcome my hon. Friend’s suggestion that there should be an insurance scheme to protect British businesses as they venture into Libya to set up operations.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I have visited the beautiful Roman ruins in Libya of Leptis Magna and Sabratha, which are the best Roman ruins to be found anywhere around the Mediterranean. Does my hon. Friend agree that there is also huge potential for British tourism in Libya to see not only those ruins but the beautiful Libyan coastline?

[Stephen Gilbert]

There are opportunities not only for British business in reconstruction, but for British tourism and for cultural exchanges between our universities and schools. I hope that the relationship between the UK and Libya will flourish on all levels. I am sure that, as we speak, many travel agencies are considering my hon. Friend’s suggestion.

I repeat my call for a co-ordinated UK and European economic response to the Arab spring. Whether in Libya or elsewhere in the region, it is vital that we deliver the benefits of economic pluralism to the people to sit alongside their new and hard-won political pluralism. The Libyan people have thrown off the yoke of repression and conformity, and we must now play our part in lifting them and others out of poverty. We must work to see a strong, confident and open Libya setting its own destiny, offering our help where necessary and when asked, and finally able to deliver security and prosperity to its people.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) on securing the debate. He displays incredible knowledge of the subject, and his book on Gaddafi is an important read. I thank him for setting up the British Mena—middle east and north Africa—Council for parliamentarians, which gives some balance to the debate. I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) on his thoughtful remarks.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I am sorry to intervene so early in my hon. Friend’s speech, but he has kindly mentioned my book on Colonel Gaddafi, which I gave to the Prime Minister before the last election. Does he know that in the book I thank him for all his work on Anglo-Libyan relations, referring to him as a rising star in the Conservative party who will be in a future Conservative Government?

[Robert Halfon]

I thank my hon. Friend. Being British, I blush at such compliments. I do not want this to turn into a mutual love-in.

Yesterday marked the end of British military involvement in Libya, seven months after the no-fly zone was authorised, and I would argue that it was one of the most successful NATO operations in history. It proved, all the more importantly after the Iraq conflict, that intervention can work and that Britain can fight for peace and democracy. Although I was disappointed at the manner of Gaddafi’s death because it would have been better for him to be tried in the international courts, I wish that my grandfather, Renato Halfon, was alive now to have seen his demise.

In 1968, after some anti-Jewish pogroms, my grandfather was forced to leave Libya and, as an Italian Jew, he went to Rome. He had planned to return to Tripoli once the pogroms had subsided, but Gaddafi took power in 1969 and all the Jewish businesses and my grandfather’s home were taken. The same thing happened to the Jews and the Italians. Luckily, my grandfather had sent my father to England some years earlier. I love Britain—I was born here and would not live anywhere else—but I feel a deep concoction of Jewish and Italian from Libya, which has been awakened by recent events. I listened with considerable interest to the story that my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham told about being in Poland, particularly the part about the oranges, and about what motivated him to fight for freedom in Libya.

It has been good to have conversations with my father and his friends from Libya to try to understand what it was like in those days. My grandfather had a clothing business and sold clothes to the British, and he always said that they were the only people who paid on time. He loved this country more than anything; he thought that the streets were metaphorically paved with gold and that everyone in England was a gentleman. It is worth remembering that King Idris was installed as monarch of Libya in 1951 by the British, in the aftermath of the war, when Libya gained independence from Italy and the old colonial name Tripolitania disappeared.

Although my grandfather and many other people had contempt for Gaddafi, we must acknowledge that in the early days the colonel was not a monster. My father remembers him becoming a rapidly popular figure, who before the coup used to walk down the famous Italian street in Tripoli, Corso Vittorio Emanuele—I think it is now called Jadat Istiklal—shaking hands with passers-by, including my father, wearing a broad serene smile and speaking loudly. He was articulate and nurtured dreams of pan-Arabism, and because of King Idris’s benign weakness, he became known as the liberator. Astonishing as it might seem, he was seen as sympathetic to western interests, and so the Americans, who controlled the large Wheelus air base outside Tripoli, did nothing to stop the coup d’état against the king. No one imagined that Gaddafi would become the monster he did and impose a 42-year totalitarian regime. Now he has gone, everyone is asking, “What next? Will it be a repeat of Iraq in the aftermath of the overthrow of Saddam Hussein?”

It is worth emphasising that a yearning for freedom is deep in every human breast and should be nurtured and supported. The Libyan people deserve freedom just as much as we do in the west. For years, the realist school of foreign policy—I am sure that the Minister is not of that school—has argued that the middle east is not ready for democracy and that democracy cannot be dropped from a B-52 bomber, but actually it can. The NATO planes showed that by providing cover as the rebels advanced on Tripoli, although that is not the only way to do it. We must remember that liberty is a human right for everyone, whatever their background or race. Sometimes it requires military intervention, and sometimes it requires hearts and minds—so-called soft power. Our foreign policy should be directed at supporting groups of resistance to dictators, and at funding radio and TV stations and the internet, in the same way as the CIA did in the cold war to try to combat communism. Where is the middle east equivalent of Radio Free Europe?

What is not required is appeasement. Appeasement often works in the short term but never in the long. The previous Government, as well as some of our universities and businesses, lost their moral bearings when it came to dealing with the Libyan regime. I happened to support Tony Blair and the invasion of Iraq, yet the complete contrast between that and what his Government did with Libya was astonishing. While senior new Labour Government figures hobnobbed with Gaddafi and his family, academic institutions accepted millions of pounds in blood money from the regime, and companies rushed to Libya to sign commercial deals. The London School of Economics, in perhaps the most shameful episode in the university’s history, went cap in hand to Gaddafi and treated him like some kind of king from over the water. I am glad that one of the professors implicated in that disgusting scandal resigned today, according to reports in The Times.

The leader of the Labour party talks about predator and producer capitalism, and I do not think there has been a more horrific example of predator corporate capitalism than the commercial dealings between the previous Government and so-called big business and the Libya regime. I do not say that to make a party political point; I just cannot get my head around how the previous Government could do some good things in Iraq but behave so disgracefully when it came to Libya. The release of the Lockerbie murderer, al-Megrahi, marked the low point of that kind of appeasement by the establishment, and I would argue that the political establishment’s flirtation with Gaddafi was akin to the appeasement of Hitler before the second world war by British upper-class aristocrats.

In having the courage to support intervention and ignore the armchair generals who said we could not or should not get involved, the Prime Minister did much to correct Britain’s moral compass, but I urge the Minister and the Government to launch a serious inquiry into the previous Government’s relations with Gaddafi. We must learn from what went wrong, so that we never, ever, do such a thing again with such an evil regime.

[Robert Halfon]

I bow to my hon. Friend’s incredible experience in these matters, but I was not arguing about what kind of intervention it was. In fact, Britain has shouldered too heavy a burden, and other NATO countries should have done more. However, many so-called armchair generals argued against any intervention per se.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Many British businessmen coming back from Tripoli have alleged to me that they heard that Mr Blair personally benefited financially from various transactions with the Gaddafi regime—

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is stepping beyond the usual realms of courtesy in this place.

European Union Bill

Daniel Kawczynski Excerpts

Tuesday 11th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that nobody under the age of 53 in the United Kingdom has ever been consulted on the ongoing changing relationship with Europe, and that the likes of he and I have never had the opportunity to cast our votes on any of the changes?

[Charlie Elphicke]

I agree absolutely with my hon. Friend. Perhaps that matter should at some point be considered. I raise these issues of broad principle because if we are to rework our relationship with the European Union, it should be done by the Executive and Parliament, but whether we should stay in or leave the European Union is a matter for the British people to decide through a referendum.

Underpinning these matters is the simple principle that Parliament is sovereign. I have grave doubts about whether we should have clause 18 at all, because I am not sure that it adds anything. I have even graver doubts about the amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Stone. As a lawyer, I worry about giving hostage to fortune, and I ask the House’s forgiveness and consideration for my preliminary remarks on my general feelings and approach to Europe when I say that I am not sure that it is safe or sensible to have such matters enshrined in statute. Parliamentary sovereignty is not a common law principle, it is a constitutional principle of the United Kingdom that has long been recognised by the judges.

--- Later in debate ---

[Charlie Elphicke]

There is much concern among Members of all parties about the common fisheries policy, the common agricultural policy, the whole thrust of financial policy and all the markets directives from the EU. There is also a general concern about the amount of activism and the way in which the EU stretches out its fingers excessively into our national affairs.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Tentacles.

PC Yvonne Fletcher

Daniel Kawczynski Excerpts

Tuesday 7th September 2010 Westminster Hall

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

Thank you, Mrs Main, for calling me to initiate this debate on PC Yvonne Fletcher. I am seeking help from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to resolve this longstanding and tragic case. Who can forget that British police officer—a beautiful young woman—being shot in the back so many years ago while she was policing a peaceful demonstration? She had a glittering career ahead of her, had worked hard to get into the police service and was recently engaged. She had her whole life ahead of her, and it was tragically cut short on that fateful day. I will never forget the image of her lying on the ground dying. I saw it on the television as a relatively young child and that image is still indelibly imprinted on my mind.

The one message we should try to get across as a nation is that if someone kills a British police officer, we will track them down—no matter where such a person goes or how they try to flee, Great Britain will always go to the nth degree to track down killers of British police officers. That must be the message we send out as a country. I give as an example the case of Sharon Beshenivsky, another British police officer who was shot. Her killer escaped to, I believe, Somalia. We sent operatives out there to drag him across the border to Ethiopia and he was subsequently extradited from there to face British justice. I want the Government to take such action and to send out a strong message to any person who dares inflict harm on our police officers that we will seek justice.

We talk a great deal about our armed forces, who are very important, but our police officers put their lives on the line every single day, too. We must never forget the extraordinary sacrifices that they make and the courage that they display. In Shrewsbury, in my constituency, we have recently had the tragedy of a police officer being shot dead. I cannot begin to explain the overwhelming sense of grief and tragedy that permeated the whole of my community because that police officer was shot. I have become involved in this case because I have written a book about Colonel Gaddafi. I am not sure whether I have presented the Minister with a copy of that book, but if I have not, I shall give him a copy at the end of the debate.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt)]

Signed by the author.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Signed. The book is a biography of Colonel Gaddafi and it was published in February. Of course, one cannot write a book about Colonel Gaddafi without talking about this huge, outstanding issue. One chapter of the book is called “Death in the square”, which relates specifically to what happened to PC Yvonne Fletcher. In writing the book, I obviously interviewed PC Yvonne Fletcher’s parents who, despite their cynicism towards politicians—they feel badly let down and I will come on to that point later—kindly agreed to meet me and be interviewed for the book.

I would like the Minister to note that the previous Administration were appallingly bad to the Fletcher family. The former Foreign Secretary was frankly as useful as a cat-flap on a submarine when it came to dealing with the issue—his behaviour was absolutely appalling. I worry about the prospect of him being leader of the Labour party when I think about how he treated PC Yvonne Fletcher’s family. The family’s letters were assiduously ignored for many years. No response was sent to the relatives of PC Yvonne Fletcher, despite their numerous attempts to get some form of communication out of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. I wrote an open letter on a website demanding that the Foreign Secretary meet with the family of PC Yvonne Fletcher. I thank the media, particularly the Telegraph, for promoting that letter, as that is what it took finally to force the then Foreign Secretary to meet the Fletcher family. I know that the current Minister, whom I know very well as being assiduous, courteous and professional, will do a much better job at keeping the family informed of what is happening than the previous Foreign Secretary and his officials. I urge the Minister to keep the family informed through writing and at any opportunity he has to meet with them directly.

I would like to pay tribute to Mr John Murray, who is a retired police officer and is in my opinion decency personified. I have had the great privilege of meeting him on a number of occasions and I would like the Minister to make a note of his name: John Murray. I took him around the House of Commons this morning and, so well known, revered and respected is he among the constabulary, many police officers came up to say “Hello” and pay their respects and compliments to him. Mr Murray, who is from Chingford, was standing next to PC Yvonne Fletcher when she was shot dead. He accompanied her in the ambulance en route to hospital, and held her hand. In the ambulance, he promised her that he would fight to bring the person who had done such a thing to justice. He carried her coffin at her funeral and, for the past 25 years, he has campaigned on the issue. He has started petitions, raised the matter with Ministers, tried to get publicity for the issue and written to Members of Parliament. In his own way, he has never forgotten the pledge and commitment he made on that fateful day to his colleague PC Yvonne Fletcher. I pay tribute to him and I would like the Minister to know about Mr John Murray from Chingford, the respect that police officers have for him and how important it is to keep him posted and informed of progress.

Together with Paul McKeever, chairman of the Police Federation, I took Mr Murray to meet the Libyan chargé d’affaires in November last year. Mr Jelban informed us that this was a Government to Government matter and I should not get too preoccupied with it. He said that all was in hand between the Governments of the United Kingdom and Libya. However, because I had so little confidence in the former Foreign Secretary, I did not want to leave it to those bilateral discussions. I took Mr Murray to see the Libyan chargé d’affaires because he would like to go to Libya—in fact, a national newspaper is prepared to pay for him to fly out there and for his accommodation.

We are trying to get a visa for Mr Murray to enable him to go out to Libya and campaign on the issue directly with the Libyans. Neither Mr Murray nor I are getting any younger, so it is important I raise the matter with the Minister to establish whether he can do anything to assist Mr Murray to get a visa. It would be a wonderful thing if Mr Murray were given a visa because he would be able to meet Libyan officials personally in Tripoli and talk to them directly about the campaign he has so faithfully pursued over the past quarter of a century. He would be able see if he is better able to get those officials to comply than the politicians who have tried to do so.

I pay tribute also to Scotland Yard for its work. I have been to Scotland Yard and received briefings on its work, and I believe that it has done an excellent job so far. Of course, it has been frustrated in the past, primarily by not being given visas to re-enter Libya to pursue its inquiries. Interestingly, its officers have just been allowed back into Libya for the first time in three years, as the Minister will know. I have been led to believe that that is a direct result of the new coalition Government’s attitude to and handling of the case, which has finally put pressure on the Libyans to grant those visas and allow Scotland Yard to re-enter the country. I pay tribute to the Minister and the new Government for that significant breakthrough, which had eluded the previous Administration, although I have doubts about the previous Administration’s commitment to pursuing the matter.

At the time of the release of Mr al-Megrahi, the convicted Lockerbie bomber, who was found culpable of the worst atrocity to take place in the UK since the second world war, I tried to use the release unashamedly as a bargaining chip in exchange for Libyan co-operation in the case of PC Yvonne Fletcher. I was told that that was highly improper and that I was behaving inappropriately, but I do not flinch from my decision to do so; politics is sometimes a dirty game.

I was appalled, shocked, dismayed and deeply embarrassed that at the time of the release of the Lockerbie bomber there was total silence from the previous Government on the case of PC Yvonne Fletcher. They did not use the occasion to challenge the Libyan authorities publicly over that critical outstanding issue. Why was that? It is simply unacceptable, and it makes us look so weak in the eyes of the Arab world: we cannot even get a country such as Libya to co-operate so that our security services can pursue their investigations.

At the time, I pleaded with Mr MacAskill, the Scottish Justice Secretary, and with the First Minister. I wrote to the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister, pleading with them to use the occasion to challenge the Libyans publicly. It all fell on deaf ears and there was a totally mute response from the Government. I want the UK never again to be in the iniquitous position of bending over backwards to accommodate Libya by affording it the release of a convicted bomber, terrorist and killer and yet doing nothing, publicly at least, to pursue co-operation on investigations into the killing of a police officer.

I want to raise briefly the protocol, signed under the previous Government, whereby the chief suspect would be put on trial in Libya. That is deeply regrettable and highly unacceptable. I would like the following phrase, which I have used when speaking to The Daily Telegraph, to ring in the Minister’s mind: you cannot face British justice in a Libyan court. It is simply impossible to face British justice in a court under Libyan jurisdiction in Tripoli. The only way to face British justice is in a British court under British jurisdiction.

For that protocol to have been signed under the previous Government was highly inappropriate for our country. For a major power in the world to acquiesce in such a shoddy, back-room deal is highly regrettable. What was going through the minds of the people who signed the protocol? I urge, beg and plead with the Minister to see what he can do to renegotiate the protocol. If we cannot get the suspect into a British court in the UK, can we at least, as the worst option, hold the trial in a third country under some form of British jurisdiction, as happened for the trial of the Lockerbie bomber, which took place in the Netherlands?

I set up the all-party group on Libya in the last Parliament because I am passionate about that country and its people. There are huge opportunities for trade between Libya and the UK. Libya sits on top of one of the largest gas and oil reserves in the world, and it is strategically placed just a short distance from some Mediterranean countries. It is a hugely important partner for us, and there are massive opportunities for British firms. However, I will help British companies to work in Libya only after the case of PC Yvonne Fletcher is resolved. If we want a genuine relationship with Libya and if we are really serious about a long-term strategic partnership, and if it is serious about it too, the outstanding issue of the murder of a British police officer must be resolved. Otherwise, that relationship will be built on sand—pardon the pun—and in a flimsy way that will not withstand the test of time.

I will continue to write parliamentary questions to the Minister on the matter. I would like to thank the media, particularly The Daily Telegraph and Mr Christopher Hope, for continually raising the story. Sometimes I feel like a lone voice in this place when I speak on the matter. I have flown to Scotland to interview Tam Dalyell for my book, and he is a great campaigner for PC Yvonne Fletcher, so I pay tribute to the former Father of the House for his work on that. I will continue, with the help of The Daily Telegraph and others, to raise the matter repeatedly. I ask the Minister to help and support John Murray in his campaign.

My last point is on the Vienna convention. Mr Murray and I have discussed what happened on the fateful day when Leon Brittan decided, following the Vienna convention, that those killers would have to be released under diplomatic nicety, which I think was extraordinary. The Vienna convention was intended to protect diplomats from intrusion and inappropriate levels of investigation. Yes, it allows them to park illegally on London streets and to do all sorts of things with protection in their diplomatic bags, but it must not give them protection when they are directly culpable for or implicated in the murder of a British police officer. If we do only one thing as a result of the case, it must be to see whether there are any ways in which we can modernise the Vienna convention, at least as a tribute to PC Yvonne Fletcher, to ensure that if such a murder happens on UK soil we are never again left in the same position.

Oral Answers to Questions

Daniel Kawczynski Excerpts

Tuesday 6th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

The hon. Lady may recall my statement to the House on 2 June, when I explained our policy that there should be a credible, independent, prompt and thorough inquiry. That remains the position of Her Majesty’s Government. The United Nations Secretary-General proposed an international inquiry, which would have been a good thing to do. The Israeli Government have decided to set up an inquiry, but with an international presence. We may not consider such an inquiry ideal, but we should hold Israel to conducting it in an independent and thorough manner, and should judge it according to the way in which it proceeds.

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

The previous Government apportioned more than £1 million to the Government of Yemen to help with counter-terrorism. Will my right hon. Friend be able to update us on how that money has been spent and on the progress that has been made in the country?

[Mr Hague]

That is important. It is the sort of funding that is continuing under the current Government. Working with Yemen on countering terrorism and to stress that political reform is needed by the Government of Yemen is an important part of our work. The Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire, has already been to Yemen to see the situation for himself so that we can make our own decisions about these things in the coming months, but that sort of support will continue.