Oral Answers to Questions

Damian Hinds Excerpts

Monday 22nd November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con)]

5. What steps her Department is taking to tackle online fraud.

[The Minister for Security and Borders (Damian Hinds)]

Online fraud can cause very serious harm to victims, both financial and emotional. We are determined to protect the public from these crimes and to go after those that commit them. The draft Online Safety Bill will be one important tool to enhance our abilities in that.

[Dr Davies]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that update. Ofcom allows those who receive spam text messages to forward them to a service, 7726, to report the receipt of those messages. How will the law enforcement agencies use the data acquired to locate and to punish the perpetrators of those crimes?

[Damian Hinds]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for highlighting the 7726 service, because referrals to that help to build up the intelligence on SMS fraudsters or scam texters and can help to lead to take-downs. It is really important that law enforcement works both with regulators and directly with individual telecoms companies to protect victims and go after the criminals responsible.

[Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)]

7. What recent assessment she has made of trends in the level of suspected modern slavery offences.

Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures (1 June 2021 to 31 August 2021)

Damian Hinds Excerpts

Thursday 21st October 2021 Written Statements

[The Minister for Security and Borders (Damian Hinds)]

Section 19(1) of the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures (TPIM) Act 2011 (the Act) requires the Secretary of State to report to Parliament as soon as reasonably practicable after the end of every relevant three-month period on the exercise of her TPIM powers under the Act during that period.

The level of information provided will always be subject to slight variations based on operational advice.

Oral Answers to Questions

Damian Hinds Excerpts

Monday 18th October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab)]

11. What steps her Department is taking to tackle online fraud and scams.

[The Minister for Security and Borders (Damian Hinds)]

I, too, wish to associate myself with your words, Mr Speaker, and those of the Home Secretary in memory of our two cherished friends, David and James—outstanding parliamentarians both. James, among his many other accomplishments, was also an exceptionally effective and highly respected Security Minister, in which role he set the enduring example. As well as by colleagues in this House, he is very much missed by officials in the Home Office and by the agencies and partners with which he worked.

Online fraud and scams have a devastating impact, and we are taking action to protect the public and make it harder for fraudsters to operate. The online safety Bill will tackle some of the highest harm frauds online.

[Cat Smith]

I wish to put on record my own condolences to the families of James Brokenshire and Sir David. A lot of people have said that Sir David was a good support to new MPs, but he was also a good support to those of us doing things for the first time. Indeed, he chaired the Bill Committee when I was first on the Opposition Front Bench. He was a great support to me and will be dearly missed from the House.

Many of my Fleetwood constituents are seriously concerned about pension scams, which are on the rise. I pay tribute to the work of Age UK raising awareness of the risk of pension scams. Can the Minister tell me what steps he plans to take in the online harms Bill specifically on pension scams?

[Damian Hinds]

The hon. Lady is exactly right to identify the wickedness of pension scams picking on people, often at a time of weakness, which is part of a wider field of investment scams. As she will know, the online safety Bill is currently going through pre-legislative scrutiny, which is an opportunity for issues to be fleshed out. She is absolutely right that the Government focus remains very much on the pension scams that she mentions.

[Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con)]

May I express my deep sadness at the loss of Sir David Amess and James Brokenshire?

May I also ask the Minister what action the Government and the police are taking to protect the elderly in particular from scams? One of the most repellent aspects of such crime is that the criminals particularly prey on the elderly and vulnerable.

[Damian Hinds]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that question, which follows on from what the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Cat Smith) was saying. It is very important that we raise awareness of how people can protect themselves from these scams and the things to look out for. We need to encourage reporting so that we can build up a wider picture. It is also very important that we focus on victim support when these crimes have occurred and that we prevent re-victimisation. We are increasing our efforts in that area.

[Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab)]

I echo what has been said about Sir David Amess. When it comes to James Brokenshire, quite simply he was everything you would have wanted in an opposite number. He was co-operative, constructive, but occasionally combative, and I will miss him.

I congratulate the new Security Minister, the right hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds), and I think we have already established a similar working relationship.

Online harms have been brought sharply into focus during the past 18 months. That includes not only fraud and scams, but extremism, radicalisation and terrorism. The police and the intelligence and security services are very concerned, and we sadly know the tragic consequences. Is the Minister satisfied that he can address that in the online safety Bill, or are specific and perhaps more urgent actions required? I assure him that if they are, we would seek to work with the Government in finding common ground to bring forward any necessary measures.

[Damian Hinds]

I thank the hon. Gentleman twice over: for what he said at the start and for his expression of support for doing what we must to ensure that we disrupt the terrible messaging, propaganda and ways of association that can have the most horrific outcomes and consequences, and thwart those efforts. There are important steps on illegal content in the online safety Bill that will improve our arsenal and toolkit. However, we must also work in particular on end-to-end encryption and platforms deliberately blinding themselves against being able to take down very harmful material. I look forward to working with him on that.

[Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con)]

May I pay respects on behalf of the people of Stroud to the families of Sir David and James Brokenshire?

On the BBC yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary was compelling when she spoke about the challenges of tackling anonymous abuse and understanding that the public are looking to us to make changes. Will my right hon. Friend meet me to discuss my verification campaign with Clean Up the Internet to see how the Department can assist that work?

[Damian Hinds]

I will certainly meet my hon. Friend, who I recognise has done a lot of work in this area. I want to make it clear that where people are engaged in illegal abuse, they can be identified and prosecuted via existing legislation—the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 and the Investigatory Powers Act 2016—but I accept that there are more aspects to this. I am happy to meet her and look forward to hearing her thoughts.

[Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab)]

T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)]

T8. May I first extend my condolences to the families and friends of James and Sir David?Over the recess the Pandora papers showed that corrupt and criminal money is still making its way into the UK, yet no unexplained wealth orders have been issued for the last two years. Will the Minister ensure that the National Crime Agency has the resources to pursue such orders in any case where they are appropriate?

[The Minister for Security and Borders (Damian Hinds)]

Unexplained wealth orders are a very important tool and, yes, we are absolutely making sure the resources are there to support their use.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Neale Hanvey—not here.

Licensing of Master Locksmiths

Damian Hinds Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd September 2021 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Security and Borders (Damian Hinds)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Ms Bardell. I warmly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby—and Bulkington—(Mark Pawsey) on securing this debate. I thank him for his thoughtful contribution. He is a well-known, assiduous champion for his constituents and for organisations in his constituency, and I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss these important matters.

I recognise the important service that the locksmith industry provides—it is often a distress purchase in difficult circumstances, as my hon. Friend said. There is clearly a need for such services to be delivered to a high standard for the purposes of safety, security and peace of mind. I also recognise the risk posed when the standards for delivery of these services are left unchecked. It is important that the public can access quality workmanship by trained and qualified professionals.

The Government are focused on driving down crime in all its guises, including neighbourhood crimes such as burglary. We are taking concerted action to make our streets, neighbourhoods and communities safer, including by backing the police with more officers, powers and resources.

Locksmiths were excluded from the Private Security Industry Act 2001 as there was no evident high level of criminality in that sector, and there were a significant number of small businesses in the sector. The Government were conscious of how a regulatory burden may place a barrier in the way of expanding and developing those small businesses. Those points remain relevant to the locksmith industry today.

I hear what my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Sir Greg Knight) says about increasing levels of criminality since the passage of the 2001 Act, but much of the argument focuses on poor workmanship. As my right hon. Friend touched on in his intervention, rogue locksmiths overcharge for substandard services. The Government have not seen evidence of unlicensed locksmiths contributing to the incidence of neighbourhood crime, such as burglary.

It is important that the Government do not increase regulation and the burden on businesses unless there is an absolutely compelling case. In this case, the Master Locksmiths Association already has a robust accreditation scheme in place to ensure that approved locksmiths are appropriately vetted, inspected and qualified. The scheme is approved by the police crime prevention initiative, Secured by Design, which sets the industry gold standard for security products and interventions to design out crime.

Consumers have the choice in who they seek to undertake locksmith work. We encourage them to use the information available to them, including that which can be found on the Master Locksmiths Association website, to ensure they receive quality work at fair rates. I would encourage members of the public to utilise the association’s advice, and locksmiths to make use of the scheme, too.

There is a robust consumer protection framework in place that all traders, including locksmiths, must comply with. Consumers are protected from being misled about the products or services they purchase by the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. The regulations also outlaw behaviour that falls short of the requirements of professional due diligence, carrying criminal penalties enforced by local authority trading standards officers.

The Government recognise the terrible impact that acquisitive crime can have on individuals, families, businesses and the wider community. That includes, especially, the invasive nature of burglary, the cost and disruption when vehicles and other tools of the trade that people rely on to earn a living are stolen, and the loss of cherished items that simply cannot be replaced. Those crimes should of course be reported to the police so that they can be investigated appropriately. As Members know, we are boosting the police workforce through the uplift campaign, which has so far delivered almost half of the 20,000 additional officers promised by 2023. We are making progress, but we will never be complacent when it comes to keeping the public safe.

Over the summer, the Government published the beating crime plan, which sets out our blueprint for driving down crime. We are providing £45 million through rounds 1 and 2 of the safer streets fund to support areas across England and Wales that are disproportionately affected by crimes such as burglary and theft to invest in proven situational, physical crime prevention measures, such as street lighting and home security. Round 1 supported 52 projects across 35 police and crime commissioner areas in the 2020-21 financial year. Round 2 is being delivered in the following financial year, supporting a further 50 projects across 39 PCC areas. A further £25 million for round 3 of the fund will be targeted at improving the safety of public spaces, with a primary focus on the safety of women and girls. That brings the total investment in the safer streets fund to £70 million.

The beating crime plan also sets out wider action that the Government are taking to improve home security, which includes embedding security standards and crime prevention principles within the national model design code and developing minimum standards as part of the review of a housing health and safety rating system, to ensure that domestic security is not just a privilege for some.

We are considering how we can go further in using the decent homes standard to keep social housing residents secure and help tackle antisocial behaviour. We are consulting on proposals to extend the security requirement in part Q of the building regulations to existing homes too. The intention of the proposed changes is to help ensure that refurbished properties are fitted only with products, such as doors and windows, that meet security standards. As my hon. Friend will know, it is currently applicable only to new homes.

[Mark Pawsey]

The Government have introduced a whole range of measures to improve security and make people feel safer in their homes, and those are of course very welcome. However, one key point is that the regulation of locksmiths was last looked at 20 years ago. Would the Minister undertake to accept a representation from the Master Locksmiths Association setting out how things have changed in those intervening years, and to give further thought to how we might deal with the issue of rogue locksmiths?

[Damian Hinds]

Of course, we are always open to representations and want to hear from trusted voices in the industry. I would encourage the association to continue engaging with officials at the Home Office.

I am coming towards the end of my remarks, so let me set out our overall position. Any broadening of the remit of the Security Industry Authority would require careful consideration of how we balance public protection against the ability of the sector to operate effectively before we embarked on what would obviously be a required legislative process. As yet, we do not judge that there has been a sufficient business case to justify the licensing of locksmiths under the Private Security Industry Act 2001.

As my hon. Friend knows, there is already a robust certification scheme in place from the Master Locksmiths Association. That scheme, which is approved by the police crime prevention initiative, Secured by Design, ensures that approved locksmiths are appropriately inspected and qualified to deliver the services required by customers—as he rightly says, sometimes in very difficult circumstances. The association also provides guidance and advice to consumers on pricing, products and equipment, hiring locksmiths and how to spot scammers.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Master Locksmiths Association for its efforts to ensure that the public are further protected against scammers and rogue traders via its approval scheme. As I said, I would encourage members of the public to utilise the association’s advice, and I would also encourage locksmiths to use the scheme.

Let me end by expressing my thanks once again to my hon. Friend for securing this important debate and for the thoughtful contribution that he made. The fight against crime is a key priority for the Government, and I can assure hon. Members on both sides that we will continue doing everything in our power to make our villages, towns and cities safer.

Question put and agreed to.

Racist Abuse on Social Media

Damian Hinds Excerpts

Wednesday 14th July 2021 Commons Chamber

[Victoria Atkins]

I thank the hon. Lady for her comments; she spoke with such passion, and she is right. Every time she and other Members of this House stand up to speak on behalf of their constituents, they are role models. I am delighted that this House is more diverse than it has ever been, although it needs to be even more diverse. I am also very proud of the fact that the Government are more diverse than they have ever been. The fact that two of the great offices of state are filled by people who happen to be of ethnic minority heritage is a real credit to our country and to how one can achieve what one wants with hard work and effort.

On the hon. Lady’s question relating to executives, that is something we are looking at in the Bill. There are measures in it that have been set out to deal with executives. Of course, I welcome her and any other Members’ input to the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport to ensure that the Bill is meeting the expectations of all.

[Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)]

Some of these vile abusers are totally open, but the cloak of anonymity does embolden others. It also opens the door for hostile actors, with the divisive exploitation that can sometimes follow. As the Minister said in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington (Felicity Buchan), anonymity is important in some contexts, including, for example, for survivors of domestic abuse, but it does not follow that it is therefore required in all contexts. If someone is communicating online in their own identity, should they not be able to say that they want to hear from and be commented on only by other people who are using their own identity? Will the Government please look at that again in the Online Safety Bill?

[Victoria Atkins]

That is an extremely interesting point, and I promise I will look into it.

HM Passport Office

Damian Hinds Excerpts

Thursday 12th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

The point of the review, as the hon. Gentleman understands, is to see whether the processes are the best possible we can have in place. As part of that review, I would certainly expect information to be taken from front-line staff, not just from union representatives in the way the hon. Gentleman suggests. I will certainly look at the possibility, which happens anyway, of Ministers—either myself or the Immigration Minister—meeting front-line staff. That is what I think is important: to meet front-line staff. The views of a variety of people will be taken in the review, but I return to a point I made earlier and to which the hon. Gentleman did not refer: the very high level of demand experienced by the Passport Office. It has already taken steps to deal with that.

[Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)]

I welcome this balanced set of measures from the Home Secretary. Will she confirm that everything possible is being done to increase short-term staffing capacity, consistent with the need to uphold quality assurance and security?

[Mrs May]

That is absolutely right. It is not the case that one can simply take somebody with no experience of passport business and make them examine passport applications. We have security checks for passport applications and we need people who are trained to be able to do that. Every effort is being made to ensure we can bring more staff into the front line as quickly as possible, commensurate with ensuring they have the necessary level of training to be able to do that securely.

Oral Answers to Questions

Damian Hinds Excerpts

Thursday 20th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Hugh Robertson]

The first thing is that the hon. Gentleman has got his figures wrong. The second is that anybody with an iota of common sense would accept that if there is snow on the ground rugby league cannot be played, and that if there is ice on the road people are unlikely take their bicycles out. In the period since 2005 when we won the bid, up to the moment when, across two Governments, we delivered the games, London was the first host city to deliver a sustained increase—of 1.4 million—in participation. I pay tribute to the policy devised by James Purnell and carried through by the right hon. Members for Leigh (Andy Burnham) and for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) when they were Secretaries of State. We should celebrate the fact that this country has achieved what no other country in the history of the Olympic games has ever achieved. Ranting and carping is pretty stupid.

[Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)]

7. What assessment she has made of tourism spend in the UK.

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

11. What assessment she has made of tourism spend in the UK.

[The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller)]

In the 12 months to April 2013, tourism spend by international visitors in the UK was up 13% to a record £19.9 billion. This result highlights the importance of tourism in this country, which contributes £115 billion on average to the UK economy each year.

[Damian Hinds]

That is very encouraging, but looking forward a decade, what projection has my right hon. Friend made of demand for passenger arrivals capacity and beds? Is she confident that the industry can meet that demand to maximise the export earnings opportunity?

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend is right that we should always keep these sorts of things under close review, which is exactly what we do. He will be aware that Sir Howard Davies is undertaking an independent review of airport capacity and how we can better use existing capacity. He is due to report in 2015. As for accommodation, the figures for the UK overall show that we have a one-third capacity available in hotel accommodation across the country. There are particular issues in London, which is why I very much welcome this week’s announcement of £700 million of investment in luxury hotel accommodation at Nine Elms, which we should applaud the Mayor for securing.

Student Visas

Damian Hinds Excerpts

Thursday 6th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)]

In the media, international students at our universities are generally seen though one of two lenses: the positive one is that they are a cash-cow, premium product that historically has cross-subsidised domestic students in our universities; the negative one is that, because of this, they might end up getting too many places at our universities, thus keeping out some of our home-grown talent. Both are completely the wrong way of thinking about international students. This is a huge growth market in the world and vital to our economic growth.

Education ought to be for us a focus sector, alongside life sciences, advanced manufacturing, the digital and creative industries, professional services and tourism. It is also a market in which, thankfully, we have strong competitive advantages. We have some of the best brand names in the business: Oxford, Cambridge, Edinburgh, St Andrews, Birmingham, Manchester, Queen’s Belfast, the London School of Economics—[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] I can name check others, if anyone wants me to.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

Leeds.

[Damian Hinds]

Thank you.

All in all, about one fifth of the top 100 universities and about one fifth of the top 50 business schools in the world are ours, and of course we have that great asset, the English language.

The sector has other advantages. The first and most obvious is export earnings and the jobs it supports in this country, but it is also important in the battle for talent, in bringing into the country the people we need to help our economy succeed. It also helps with what people have called soft power—or, as I would prefer to describe it, the promotion of Britain abroad and the fostering of business and cultural links throughout the world.

The sector has several secondary advantages. For one, unusually among the key growth sectors, its employment and economic growth prospects are well distributed throughout the UK, not concentrated in one place, such as London. Secondly, university rankings depend on having a certain proportion of foreign students at a university, because international rankings consider that if a university is not good enough to attract foreign students, it is probably not very good. Thirdly, having a vibrant, cosmopolitan HE sector helps to reinforce several other growth strategy objectives, particularly to bring forward research and development in key sectors and to make this country the headquarters location of choice for multinationals.

As many hon. Members have said, this is a growing world market. In 1980, about 1 million students were enrolled in institutions outside their country of origin, but by 2010 that figure was 3.3 million. We know that more recently the compound annual growth rate trend—obviously it has moved a bit in the last couple of years—has been about 7%, which is a strong growth rate for an attractive industry. According to the McKinsey report on the seven long-term priorities for the UK, if we can hold our share—grow it as the market grows—and harvest just half of the benefit, it would be worth an additional 80,000 jobs in the country by 2030.

[Roberta Blackman-Woods]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that holding that share is becoming more difficult, because of the challenge from countries such as Australia and Canada, and that the Government should be strengthening our universities’ ability to attract overseas students, not making it more difficult, as they are doing at present?

[Damian Hinds]

The hon. Lady brilliantly anticipates my next point. Of course, she is absolutely correct. As my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell) said, we are, to coin a phrase, in a global race, and we are not the only ones who have spotted that this is an attractive sector and who are doing things differently, as we will continue to do in order to protect and grow our own share. The most obvious competitive set are the Anglophone countries, led by the United States, but including Canada and Australia. Increasingly, however, non-English speaking countries are offering English-speaking courses. The third competitor is potentially the biggest, and that is the choice of staying at home. In China, India, Nigeria and elsewhere in the world, there is a big business opportunity in attracting students from those countries to stay in institutions there. So, yes, we have to redouble our efforts all the time in order not only to forge ahead, but just to hold our own.

We should be talking always about quality higher education, pre-higher education preparation and certified colleges. These institutions should not be selling visas; they must be selling education, and we know that there have been recent substantial abuses. The National Audit Office says that in 2009 up to 50,000 alleged students were here primarily to work, rather than study. We had this cadre of serial students who were forever renewing their visas without showing any substantial progress in their studies. Clearly, if we are serious about curbing immigration in what has become a chaotic situation and about reducing the numbers and getting rid of abuse, we have to tackle the student visa route.

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight the abuses under the old system, but there are two sides to tackling the problem—tightening up the rules for people coming in, and removing those abusing the system—but the NAO concluded that not enough was being done in the latter department. Does he agree that the Government need to make that more of a priority?

[Damian Hinds]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. It must indeed be a clear priority.

I welcome the action that the Government have taken. I do not think that everyone would agree, but I welcome the removal of the blanket two-year right to work for all graduates, because it looked a bit too much like a bribe to sweeten the degree. There is a role for it, however, in certain circumstances and categories, such as in subjects where there is a shortage—we talked about STEM subjects earlier—and for MBA students, who, by definition, will already have worked for several years and have done their first degree and who are valuable and mobile students.

I welcome the removal of the right to work for private college students, the requirement to show real academic progress and, of course, the closure of bogus colleges. I also acknowledge that the Government have put in place a sensible and proportionate regime for student visitors. A lot of people have thrown statistics around, but overall it appears that the falls in the numbers have been concentrated primarily in those sectors and parts of the market where abuse was most prevalent. I also welcome the fact that there is no cap on the numbers of people coming to university. It is right that the Prime Minister goes out and gives that message, as we saw him doing recently at the KPMG offices—I think—in India, but it is a constant battle against possible perceptions. For example, the message on MBA student blogs in India is that Britain is not as welcoming a place—or not welcoming at all—as it once was.

[Nicola Blackwood]

Does my hon. Friend agree that one reason for that ongoing perception might be the efficiency, or lack thereof, of in-country UK Border Agency officials? With the expansion of credibility interviews, that will only increase. Some of the reports that I have heard about the reasons for people being turned down at interview—those where the decision was later overturned at appeal—are concerning. Does he agree that if we are to increase the caution with which we agree to visa applications, we should also increase the efficiency of UKBA in-country?

[Damian Hinds]

As always, my hon. Friend makes her point clearly and well. I do not have enough knowledge about the interview to comment, but overall, with or without a cap, and whatever happened last year or this year—we know that there is no cap, and we know that the figures look broadly okay—it nevertheless remains the case that, given the intense scrutiny to which immigration numbers will rightly be subjected, how students are treated in those statistics must inevitably affect the extent to which we as a country seize this market opportunity in the years ahead.

In one way it is blindingly obvious, but it is worth saying that not every student adds to immigration. In the steady state, so long as we are reasonably good at counting people leaving as well as those coming—

[Chris Bryant]

That is a big “if”.

[Damian Hinds]

We took over from Labour.

So long as we are reasonably good at that, it is only growth in the numbers that will add to immigration. However, I would ask the Minister to look again and consider counting people towards net immigration only at the point at which they settle. The key counter-argument—in some ways it is quite strong—is that a student is a human being like any other, and if there is a net increase in their numbers, that is an increase in net immigration, which will lead to the same strain on housing, public services and so on as with any other type of immigration. I would argue that that is not quite true. I do not want to sound trivial about it, but one could argue, with some sense, that students do not take up quite as much residential living space as others and, being younger on average, they are—[Interruption.] I do not mean that students are smaller. I myself was thinner as an undergraduate—that is history—but I was thinking more about housing. As younger people, typically, students are probably less likely than the average person to make demands on the national health service, places at primary schools and so on.

[Chris Bryant]

It is an absolute pre-condition of any student visa that that person is unable to make any claims on the taxpayer or, therefore, the NHS.

[Damian Hinds]

I am conscious of the time and I do not want to get into a long debate about this, but any person in this country will be consuming public services to some extent—for example, roads—and is financed by the rest of us. In any case, broadly speaking we are making the same points.

We could also mitigate those effects. Given that housing is a particular issue, we could do that by requiring universities that want to expand to provide additional accommodation. Local areas that want to benefit from such economic growth should also have to be willing to accept the provision of extra accommodation, over and above residential housing.

The truth is that there are downsides—additional strains and calls on public resources and residential accommodation—to having more people in the country. It is not without cost; it is a choice to be made. We have to weigh up the costs and downsides against the benefits that so many people have talked about—the revenues, the export earnings, the jobs that are created, the talent we can bring to this country and the strengthening of our links around the world. If, having made that calculation, we decide that this should be a focus area in contributing to our economic growth—I think the case is very strong —we must be bold in seizing that opportunity.