Universal Credit

Chris Green Excerpts

Tuesday 13th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)]

I have a qualified welcome for this important debate. I will touch briefly on universal credit and free school meals.

On universal credit, I welcome what has been done by the Chancellor and a succession of Secretaries of State. Universal credit is there to get people into work and to ensure that, when they are in work, they can take on more work, make progress in their careers and, ideally, cease to be dependent on welfare payments. That is what we want to happen, and the system has been reformed over the years to become better and better.

I have very little time, but I want to highlight the speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Heidi Allen). She captured brilliantly the reforms that have been delivered in recent years and made the point that a debate that should have been about improving universal credit has turned into a headline-grabbing agenda by the Labour party.

I have visited the two jobcentres that serve my constituency, and the enthusiasm of the staff in both of them for universal credit was incredible. I was blown away by their support for it. They can help people now: rather than being faceless, grey, stand-offish organisations, they can engage with people in a way that has not been possible for them before. We should support universal credit enthusiastically—and, yes, where improvements need to be made, let us make them.

On free school meals, we ought to have a vision that the children who are most in need should receive them, but they should not be received by the children of those who are earning a significantly higher amount of money. It is disappointing that Labour Members will vote today to prevent 50,000 children—the poorest children in our country—from receiving free school meals when universal credit is rolled out and will vote to ensure that families with an income of more than £40,000 a year continue to receive them. I think that the Labour party has the wrong values, but it is not just the Labour party: in my constituency, the Liberal Democrats have been putting out propaganda saying that the children of those who earn more than £7,400 a year will no longer receive free school meals. That is not a cut-off; it is only a fraction of the actual income.

Because of the time constraint, I will end my speech by saying that I support the Government and their actions.

Universal Credit Project Assessment Reviews

Chris Green Excerpts

Tuesday 5th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for High Peak (Ruth George), who brings such a wealth of knowledge to this important subject. I welcome the fact that this is the sixth debate on universal credit in this Parliament, which shows the importance that we attach to the matter, on the Opposition side and on the Government side, given the contributions we have been making.

I also welcome the Secretary of State’s decision to release the project assessment review reports. I think that transparency and openness is incredibly important, but we do have to be a little cautious on this, because we also need to foster within Departments, especially if they are doing innovative projects, a culture of honesty, open exchange and frank and honest discussion. We must always have that balance, but I welcome the fact that the Work and Pensions Committee will receive the reports.

The purpose of scrutiny should be, at least partly, to drive reform. We need reform in all parts of Government and in what Government do, especially when we introduce new policies and ideas that try to change people’s lives radically. However, we must be cautious about how we use the data, some of which goes back to 2012. I am not sure how valuable or important data that goes back that far will be.

I do not accuse any Opposition Member of scare- mongering, but there have been instances of scaremongering recently. Only last week, the BBC had to apologise because what they said made people fear what would happen over Christmas. The BBC apologised for that scaremongering, so we must bear that in mind when we consider data and its use.

We should acknowledge the reforms that the Government have delivered. I believe that they are a listening Government, especially the Department for Work and Pensions, and they have delivered numerous reforms in recent months.

The focus on the fix as opposed to the pause is incredibly important. The waiting days, the telephone costs and the six-week wait have been cut. The advances will become more accessible—that is important in the run-up to Christmas—and there will be payback over 12 months. People will be able to get an advance within one week and, in instances of the most pressing need, on the same day. There are also improved options of direct payment to landlords. A key change, which I really appreciate and I think many people will appreciate in the roll-out of universal credit in the coming year, is the two-week housing benefit payment, which does not have to be paid back. That is an important contribution, which means that when people go on to universal credit, that support is there from the beginning.

Further improvements are needed, especially for those who are self-employed. We need to look at the taper rates for work allowance and to increase the discretion of jobcentre staff in dealing with the most difficult cases. We should trust those who work in jobcentres when they deal with such cases.

I am pleased that the focus of the debate has been on the “fix” element and that the success of the Secretary of State and his team in delivering reform has been recognised. We need more reform, but I believe that universal credit is a mechanism to make work pay and lift people out of poverty. It is much better than Labour’s scheme, which created so much welfare dependency and a malign poverty trap.

Universal Credit Roll-out

Chris Green Excerpts

Thursday 16th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Frank Field) on securing this important debate. It was a pleasure to listen to my hon. Friend the Member for Banff and Buchan (David Duguid), who made a superb maiden speech. The debate about which is the most beautiful Scottish constituency carries on to this very day.

Waiting seven weeks for a first payment, in any circumstance, is challenging. If someone, perhaps a middle-class person, got a new job and had to wait six weeks for their first pay, that would be challenging, but it is quite likely that such an individual would have savings to fall back on and there might be friends and family who could offer support. Also, that person would have a good salary to look forward to once they started the job. However, someone on universal credit or receiving benefits would be far less likely to have such savings, and friends and family might not be so able to offer that support. Such a person would be in a far trickier position if they were receiving benefits, or looking forward to receiving benefits, perhaps having lived on the minimum wage or the living wage.

We have to recognise that the six-week wait is enormously difficult for people in the most vulnerable position in society, and I believe that we ought to get closer to the vision set out when universal credit was initially rolled out—the ideas behind it such as the sense of its being compatible with work and that work should always pay. But that is not the only aspect on which universal credit needs to get closer to that initial vision.

We need to reduce those seven waiting days. I appreciate the point about advances, but someone previously on the minimum wage and with no savings at all who has to spend seven days without any income before receiving the first payment five weeks following that seven days will find that a very difficult position to sustain with little back-up. We also need to look at the taper. I appreciate what the Government have done in the recent past, but we need to go further in improving the taper to give further encouragement for people to get into work.

However, we do have a listening Government, and I want to highlight a note sent to me by Bolton Citizens Advice:

“We welcome the Government’s recent decision to make the Universal Credit helpline free and ensure all claimants are told they can get an advance payment. We called for these changes in July because they will make a real difference to the people we help.”

[Heidi Allen]

I thought I was the ultimate UC geek and that there was nothing I did not know about it, but recently I learned that people can have a three-month payment holiday before those advance payments are paid back. Does my hon. Friend think that the jobcentres should advertise that more?

[Chris Green]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is very important to increase communication, and that awareness is vital. Citizens Advice and other organisations play a vital part.

Many people are calling for the Government to pause or perhaps even stop the roll-out of universal credit. I do not agree with that. Recently, I visited a jobcentre that serves my constituents, and people there were absolutely clear: do not stop. My hon. Friend also highlighted a number of failings with the current system, which is failing far too many people. While we need to move on to universal credit, I am equally clear that the initial wait must come down from six weeks to one month.

Universal Credit Roll-out

Chris Green Excerpts

Tuesday 24th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)]

A policy should be founded on its vision and its values. The idea that work should always pay is clearly a good value, and many people across the House agree with that. The system should be easy to understand as those accessing it should be able to do so without any challenges or barriers in their way. Simplifying the system from six benefits down to one achieves that aim. People should be able to increase or decrease their hours as the work or the requirements change. It should be quite straightforward for people to increase their hours and for employers to give more hours and more work—if that is what they want to do—so that people can get more experience and there is more reason for employers to give more training and for people to gain greater qualifications. That allows progression and, perhaps, promotion in the workplace, which is very good for those individuals, for the society around them and for the businesses employing them.

[Helen Goodman]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Chris Green]

I will not give way; time is tight.

The Government are delivering for the poorest. Periods of Labour government have always resulted in an increase in unemployment. From 1997 to 2010, unemployment went from 2.1 million to 2.5 million. Unemployment has dropped to below 1.5 million under this Government.

[Rachel Maclean]

As well as the employment figures rising, we have seen more disabled people get back to work. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is a chance for them to fulfil their potential in the workplace and in life?

[Chris Green]

My hon. Friend highlights an important point. Many fully able people have got into work, and we need to ensure that the whole of society—all our communities—can get into work.

The number of children in workless households has fallen to a record low in every region since 2010, and the figure has fallen by 90,000 in the past year. The Resolution Foundation reported that the number of low-paid people—those on less than two thirds of the median wage—is at the lowest level since the 1980s.

[Martin Whitfield]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Chris Green]

I will not give way.

Labour supported universal credit and has no plans to drop it. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) highlighted, the initial debate was supposed to be about a pause and fix of the universal credit roll-out, but it has now changed to just a pause. A pause to do what—amend it or drop it? There are currently no proposals from the Opposition to roll out a new system. We must have the opportunity to fix through the test, learn and rectify approach. Only 8% of universal credit has been rolled out so far and there are proposals to take that figure to 10%, but this is a slow and cautious procedure.

[Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Chris Green]

I want to get to the number of issues that do need to be fixed.

The policy would be better if it were closer to its values. For example, the taper should be set so that it rewards people better than it does now. The seven-day waiting period ought to be reduced—not receiving money for one week involves a substantial sum for people who are often on the lowest wages. The test, learn and rectify approach gives an opportunity to improve the system of direct payments to landlords. That ought to go forward rapidly, but we also need to reflect on individuals being in charge of their own finances. The responsibility actually helps the individual because it is a responsibility they will have when they go into full-time work. It is a terrible situation when someone who has been so supported by the state and is, in a sense, dependent on it moves into work and has to realise the loss of that welfare support in addition to all the challenges of a new job. We also need to change the substantial six-week waiting period, which is not in the spirit and values of universal credit. The period ought to be four weeks, right from the off.

The Government are demonstrating that they are listening. A key part of that has been the introduction of the free telephone service. I do not want the roll-out to be stopped, but there needs to be reform for it to go on.

Universal Credit Roll-out

Chris Green Excerpts

Wednesday 18th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)]

Welfare is naturally a great concern for anyone who receives welfare payments, especially if there is to be a transition from one system to another, but it is also a big concern for people who fund the system, and not a great deal has been said about people who actually pay their taxes. I appreciate that people on universal credit also pay taxes, but there will be unemployed, employed and underemployed people in the system. All groups in society have to think that the welfare system is reasonable and just. There are many problems with the legacy system, and it needs to change.

The question is whether universal credit is, in all ways, the right system, and there are challenges for universal credit to overcome, but in the current system there is too much chance of people being written off or reaching the 16-hour cliff edge. If people reach 16 hours, they no longer have the incentive to work additional hours. How much money would an employer want to spend on training a person who works 16 hours a week? How much experience does that person get? A person with relatively little training and relatively little experience has relatively little chance of getting a promotion. We ought to change the system to universal credit, which does not stop people working extra hours, getting training and experience, and perhaps then getting that promotion.

For people who work erratic, relatively few hours that increase and decrease, it is challenging in the current system to keep up with the paperwork that that entails for six different benefits. That is a huge problem for people. We do not want people to look at the system and think, “You know what, if I take those extra hours this week, it will be a logistical nightmare to fill in all the paperwork and everything else to get myself back up to speed.” In the current system people choose not to take extra hours for a variety of reasons, as well as because of the 16-hour cliff edge. We need a system that is easy to navigate. We need a system where people who might be concerned about losing their job can say, “Actually, there is a good safety net. There is a system that will look after me in my time of need.” But there are challenges to address and we need that test, learn and rectify approach in place. The Government are demonstrating it with a slow roll-out, with the progress on advance payments and with the fantastic decision today to have free calls to the system.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chris Green Excerpts

Monday 14th March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Priti Patel]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Work and employment turn around the lives of families and communities. In his constituency and region, we have seen record levels of employment. That is down to the Government’s policies and, as I said earlier, to the support we have had from employers, who are, ultimately, the job creators in our economy.

[Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)]

19. What progress his Department has made on reducing the number of workless households.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

When we took office almost one in five households had no one in work and about 1.4 million people had been on benefits for most of the previous decade. Since 2010, the number of workless households has fallen by more than 680,000 to its lowest level since records began. The number of children in workless households is at a record low, down nearly 480,000 since 2010.

[Chris Green]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that making progress in reducing the number of people in workless households is key to improving the life chances of millions of children?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I do agree with my hon. Friend. From all the evidence, we know that children in workless households grow up without the aspiration to achieve, something they might have if they grow up in driven families who are in work. They are almost certain to repeat the difficult lives of their parents and we want to turn those lives around. Since 2010, the number of workless households in the social rented sector has fallen by more than 280,000 to a record low. It is worth remembering that when we took office in 2010 the number of households where no one had ever worked had nearly doubled under the previous Labour Government.

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[Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)]

T8. The Octagon theatre in Bolton is undergoing an upgrade to improve accessibility to disabled people. Will my right hon. Friend update us on the work being done to ensure that more public venues have better accessibility to disabled people?

[Justin Tomlinson]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising this issue. We are doing extensive work in this area, recognising the combined spending power of £212 billion for those with disabilities. We are doing particular work with my colleagues in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport to make cultural and music venues accessible. Attitude is Everything is a fantastic charity. A task group is looking with leading operators at restaurants, and good progress has been made with sports facilities, particularly with the premier league.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chris Green Excerpts

Monday 1st February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Priti Patel]

Let me remind the hon. Lady of my earlier comments, when I said that no one currently on ESA will lose out as a result of the changes. Importantly, too, our Government are focused on supporting individuals who have health conditions and are on ESA, which is why those in need would automatically go to the support group.

[Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)]

A jobcentre’s role is especially important for those who do not have the necessary support at home. Does my right hon. Friend agree that in addition to the youth obligation, there should be an obligation on jobcentres to offer more specialist support?

[Priti Patel]

My hon. Friend raises an important point: jobcentres have a significant role to play in providing support to young people. That is why we have just started a pilot that takes Jobcentre Plus, with employers, into school to act as a gateway to provide new employment, work experience and work placement opportunities. He has also made the point that the new youth obligation focuses on ensuring that young people are either earning or learning, and do not end up trapped in the benefits system, which is exactly what happened under the previous Labour Government.

Universal Credit: North-West

Chris Green Excerpts

Wednesday 13th January 2016 Westminster Hall

[Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Nuttall, for calling me to speak in this important debate. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship.

I pay tribute to the hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston (Marie Rimmer) for bringing this important debate to this Chamber today. In the last Parliament, it was my privilege to work for three years on the Work and Pensions Committee. We conducted an investigation and produced a report on the introduction and roll-out of universal credit, and we visited jobcentres in the Greater Manchester area. Indeed, we also conducted an investigation at about the same time into jobcentres themselves, which was overwhelmingly welcomed by the people at the sharp end—the people who work in jobcentres.

A couple of weeks ago, I visited two local jobcentres—one in Runcorn and one in Northwich—and the staff told me that universal credit made it a lot easier to help people to get into work, particularly the long-term unemployed. Together with the changes that the Government have introduced to tax, which effectively take some of the lowest-paid people out of tax altogether, universal credit helps people who have been unemployed for a long time. There is a clear incentive to work, because people can keep more of their pay. The Government intend to introduce a system whereby people can earn £12,500—just over £1,000 a month—before they start to pay income tax.

[Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that this change marks a profound shift in the welfare system? As many people would expect, the welfare system is now a mechanism to help people into work, as opposed to a catchment for people to remain unemployed.

[Graham Evans]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend; he hits the nail on the head. This change is about enabling people to stand on their own two feet and to get away from the welfare culture that grew under the 13 years of the previous Labour Administration. When Labour introduced tax credits, they were going to cost £4 billion; the figure is now £30 billion. That is simply unaffordable. As a nation, do we pay money to people for not working or do we encourage them to stand on their own two feet and get a job? And as I say, the tax incentive means that people can earn about £1,000 a month before paying tax, because Conservatives believe that people should keep more of their earnings.

Young Jobseekers

Chris Green Excerpts

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Westminster Hall

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

Order. Can I say that if hon. Members want to be called to speak, it is quite helpful if they stand up?

[Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)]

rose—

[Amanda Solloway (Derby North) (Con)]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Gray. It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon. I offer my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich North (Chloe Smith) on securing the debate on this important issue and on her work as chair of the all-party group on youth employment.

As the House will be aware, between June and August the employment rate was 73.6%, which is the highest since records began in 1971. In that same period, 3.92 million 16 to 24-year-olds were in work. That figure is up 66,000 in the past year.

There are many ways to get that all-important first job and gain the vital experience that can lead on to an exciting and rewarding career. While many young people find work through word of mouth, online adverts or speculative applications, we must recognise the important role of the local jobcentre, which is often the vital link between someone seeking their first job and potential employers.

The jobcentre’s role is especially important for those who do not have the necessary support from family or friends that so many of us rely on. However, we do have to acknowledge that, in some cases, jobcentres are not sufficiently flexible to meet the needs of people who rely on their services. We must recognise that the support some people need extends beyond the point of getting and starting a job. Those initial few days and weeks in that first job can be incredibly daunting and that is when support from the jobcentre can be needed most. We need to ensure that the support jobcentres offer is more flexible to enable ongoing support from a work coach outside of normal working hours to reflect the needs of new employees.

I am pleased with the Government’s youth obligation plans to require unemployed 18 to 21-year-olds to take an apprenticeship or do daily community work if they have not been in employment, education or training for six months. The proposals place emphasis on work and other experience, encouraging young people to develop in the discipline and routine of work and to add as many activities as possible to their CVs to improve their future prospects.

Looking back at my work history—I have not had the typical route into politics—I remember an early piece of advice that certainly served me well, though I am sure others here may not quite agree with it. It was, “Just get a job—any job. It doesn’t matter what, because you just need the experience.” I followed that advice and took a variety of low-paid temporary jobs that led to me working as a vehicle mechanic, in a picture frame factory and a bookies, then doing bar work and on to a career as an engineer in the mass spectrometry industry for nearly 20 years.

Each job I had provided a stepping stone and that much needed employer reference for the next job. Without that early experience, I would never have had an enjoyable career in industry and I would not be where I am now. It is vital that, regardless of circumstances and aspiration, young jobseekers receive good guidance from careers advisors in schools and jobcentres so that they are not excluded from today’s competitive labour market.

[Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (SNP)]

Has the hon. Gentleman considered the importance of support and guidance at school and mentoring afterwards not just for young people looking for jobs, but for those who want to start small businesses but may not have had that encouragement in the past?

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[Chris Green]

I agree. I think most people in the Chamber would agree that further development is required in schools and in other ways to get young people that first experience so that they can develop the business that they have always dreamt about starting.

[Richard Graham]

My hon. Friend has given a striking example of a can-do spirit and attitude. In a sense, I think that divides the House between those on the Government side who want to see employers providing those opportunities for young people to show that they can succeed as he has and those on the Opposition side who often lean towards giving the young more benefits, because they are not capable of working or whatever. Does he agree that the key to getting more young people into work is seeing opportunities provided in precisely the way the Government have done with apprenticeships?

[Chris Green]

Apprenticeships are a key way to get experience and it is really important that there is a whole range of ways to get into apprenticeships and guidance for that.

I am delighted that the Government are continuing to support young people moving into work, allocating £1 billion to the youth contract and ensuring that apprenticeships for under-25s incur no national insurance costs for employers. In my constituency, youth unemployment was at 8% in May 2010. Fast-forward five years and it was at 3.9%. Further, since 2010, Bolton West has had an increase of more than 4,000 apprenticeships.

This week, I am interviewing for an apprentice for my own constituency office. Apprenticeships are a vital way to give young people a chance to earn a salary while getting real work experience. A great deal has been done, but there is still much more to do in the future.

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation

Chris Green Excerpts

Thursday 9th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Brown]

The even greater irony is that I was the Government Chief Whip when we put through the minimum wage legislation. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) was the Whip on the Committee that went right through the night on this. But that is going down memory lane. Indeed, it was the current Secretary of State for Defence who was making the case in the Committee at the time. There was some substance in the point, which is why I make it now in relation to the specific circumstances of the constrained nature of the private sector economy in the north-east of England. A broader, deeper and stronger private sector economy is the way forward for our region. It will help to give us the wages and the breadth of job opportunities that the south-east of England enjoys.

The great hope offered by the Government to the north-east is in their northern powerhouse initiative. The Chancellor is right to take regional policy seriously, but he just does not seem to understand how the north-east of England works and what precisely it needs. Indeed, he did not reference us once in his Budget speech when he was going through the offers to the other English regions. The only practical manifestation of the Government’s northern powerhouse policy so far is in the rail upgrades, and they have been delayed.

[Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)]

In the north-east, there will be a huge Hitachi factory development, which will create 730 new jobs. Surely that is part of the northern powerhouse.

[Mr Brown]

When I was the regional Minister in the previous Labour Government, I met representatives of Hitachi in Downing Street. They were considering locating in the north-east of England, and wanted to discuss how they could bring that about. I give credit to the current Government for having seen that programme through, because it does involve Government support and they could have cancelled it but they did not. But it was a shared endeavour, and it was certainly coming into place well before the northern powerhouse initiative. However, the hon. Gentleman is quite right that it is exactly the sort of initiative that we would like to see for our region. If it comes under the northern powerhouse brand, I shall take no exception to that.

The problem is that we do not know the geographical boundaries of the northern powerhouse initiative or the functions ascribed to it. We do not even know whether it is some form of local government reorganisation or a regional economic development initiative, or both. We are being told in the north-east that we must sign up to a metro mayor, but not why. The Government have given no details of the powers, functions, workings, accountability or budget for the post, yet they say we must have one.

The past five years have seen a plethora of initiatives that have had no practical impact on the problems in the north-east. The new local enterprise partnerships simply do not have the resources and capacity to address the scale of the problems. The LEPs have been followed by city deals, enterprise zones, regional growth funds, local growth deals and joint leadership boards. They are fragmented, piecemeal initiatives that collectively do not amount to an effective, focused regional policy from the Government. Metro mayors risk being just the latest addition to this confused approach. There is a serious question as to whether so many proposed policy responsibilities can and should be invested in one single individual. People in Newcastle who rejected the local government version of the elected mayor in 2012 and the wider north-east should at the very least be given a choice on this in a referendum.

The past five years have seen a persistent focus on structures and process at the expense of any real, meaningful action. We continue to lag behind in jobs. We have high unemployment and a lack of skills and investment in infrastructure. We simply cannot afford to waste the next five years dithering on structures.

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[Pauline Latham]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

I will ignore what the hon. Gentleman said because, again, it is topsy-turvy economics. We are trying to increase investment in business to provide more jobs. We have created 2 million more jobs in the past five years, and that is carrying on. Apprenticeships are increasing, which will help people into work. In my constituency of Mid Derbyshire, which started off with 1,267 claimants in 2010, the figure went down to 340 this May. That is a huge reduction. I would still like those 340 people to be in work.

Some hon. Members have talked about youth unemployment. I started off in Mid Derbyshire with 350 such claimants; the figure is now down to 80. That is a huge increase in the number of young people who have jobs, thanks to our brilliant local industries. Young people are better off in work—everyone is better off in work than on benefits. We want to stop the culture of people relying on benefits.

As the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions said, when the Labour party was in government, it put up benefits before an election, flatlined them and then put them up again before the next election. Labour Members should not be playing politics with benefit claimants, who need honest, clear benefits. Those who need benefits will get them under this Government, but we want to get more people into work because that is better for their self-esteem and health; it is also better for their children to have as a role model someone who is in work.

[Chris Green]

When it comes to the relationship between the individual and the Government, it is healthier not to be recycling money and taxing people into poverty, only to give them some of that money back. Does my hon. Friend agree?

[Pauline Latham]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point, and that is exactly what the Government are trying to escape from. They are trying to raise the tax threshold, so that more people keep more of the money that they have earned. That must be a good thing to do. We need to grow the economy and get the finances under control, with the national debt falling.