Farming and Inheritance Tax

Caroline Dinenage Excerpts

Wednesday 4th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey (Tatton) (Con)]

I rise to join Conservative colleagues in calling on the Labour Government to stop this farm tax. It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Penrith and Solway (Markus Campbell-Savours) and to have heard what he said about those false promises before the general election. Perhaps he, too, wants his Government to think again about what they are doing.

The other week, thousands of farmers took the extraordinary step of coming to Westminster to protest against this misguided policy. Unfortunately, the Government have put their head in the sand and are pursuing this policy. I hope this debate will make them think again and make them listen. I give the Exchequer Secretary 10 out of 10 for appearing in the Chamber today, even though he is a junior Minister at the Treasury—he certainly pulled the short straw by being put on the Front Bench today. I ask Ministers not just to come here, but to listen to what is being said and to really listen to the needs of our farming community.

We have heard a lot today about what British farmers do—they are stewards of the land, guardians of our food security and the backbone of the rural economy—yet the Government show a fundamental lack of understanding of how their policy will affect the industry. They are pushing ahead with it, even though it jeopardises not just farmers’ livelihoods but the very future of our countryside.

The numbers speak for themselves. While the Government claim that only 27% of farms will be affected, the National Farmers Union has warned that 75% of family farms will be affected. If I were in government and I saw the discrepancy between those numbers, I would go back to the drawing board, check the figures and ask why those discrepancies are there, not dig in deeper. I think the curse of this Labour Government and what they will be remembered for is their distinct lack of grasp of detail and of how the economy works, rural and otherwise. [Interruption.] Yes, this Budget has been a disaster of a Budget.

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend is making excellent points. Does she agree that there is not only a lack of grasp of detail, but an astounding sense of arrogance—an inability to listen to those who know what they are doing, the farmers, and who have the experience and the expertise? There is just a blank inexplicable unwillingness by this Government to listen to the voices of expertise and of experience.

[Esther McVey]

I thank my hon. Friend for bringing that point to the House. This debate allows those on the Labour Benches to say, “Actually, let’s go back to the drawing board. Let’s look at this discrepancy in the numbers.” For all their talk of growth—I return to the Budget—this Government’s policies are delivering the exact opposite of growth, with the change to employer national insurance contributions and the change to rights from day one. They are talking down the economy and crushing growth in the economy, with the forecast being revised to be lower than it was.

Even if the Government do not want to hear this from me, and even if they do not want to hear it from the farmers, I want them to hear it from a Labour-supporting tax expert, Dan Neidle. He has eventually come to the conclusion that Labour’s farm tax is a dog’s dinner of a policy. Originally, Dan had criticised what he saw as “over-the-top coverage” of the impact these tax changes would have, but he says that on closer inspection he has reversed his decision, remarking that these Budget changes would hit

“farmers too hard and tax avoiders too lightly.”

He argues that the policy needs to change. Dan Neidle has said that the Treasury should raise the inheritance tax cap dramatically to around £20 million so

“only the largest and most sophisticated farm businesses become subject to IHT”.

Those on the Labour Benches might not want to listen to me, but I hope they will listen to one of their own tax experts.

Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill

Caroline Dinenage Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 25th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[James Murray]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for a rare intervention, but this Bill is about business rates in England. Some of his wider points may relate to the removal of the VAT exemption for private school fees in other countries and nations of the UK. Those provisions will be debated as part of the Finance Bill on Wednesday and, if he repeats his comments, I might be able to address them more specifically.

Today, we are addressing the business rates system that applies in England. This is important because every parent aspires to get the best education for their child, and we as a Government are determined to ensure that those aspirations are met. At the Budget, the Government announced a real-terms increase in per pupil funding, with a £2.3 billion increase to the core schools budget for the financial year 2025-26, including a £1 billion uplift in high-needs funding.

This funding increase needs to be paid for so, to help make that happen, the Government are ending the tax breaks for private schools, as set out in our manifesto. This includes ending charitable rate relief eligibility for those private schools in England that are charities. This Bill will do that, and its measures operate alongside the ending of the VAT exemption for private school fees, which is being delivered through the Finance Bill that I will be moving on Wednesday. Together, these measures will raise £1.8 billion a year by 2029-30.

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

The Bill makes provision for maintaining the charitable status of institutions that are wholly or mainly concerned with providing full-time education for pupils with an education, health and care plan. Will the Minister set out the definition of “wholly or mainly”? What support will be put in place for councils to afford the burden of extra pupils moving into mainstream education? Schools will be facing the double whammy of losing charitable status and VAT being imposed on school fees. Hampshire county council is already under financial strain, and it will face a crisis point by 2026-27 under these proposals.

[James Murray]

As I will explain, the test of “wholly or mainly concerned” is 50% of pupils, or more, having an EHCP specifying that their educational needs can be met only in a private school. I will provide some more detail in a moment.

Of course, the Government have prioritised funding for the state education system in this Budget. The £2.3 billion increase, including a £1 billion uplift in high-needs funding, is possible only because of the difficult decisions that we have taken on taxation, including in the Bill.

Independent Schools: VAT and Business Rates Exemptions

Caroline Dinenage Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2024 Westminster Hall

[Bradley Thomas (Bromsgrove) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the removal of VAT and business rates exemptions for independent schools.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Caroline. This debate matters for various reasons. I have always been and will remain committed to supporting education across the board, including our excellent state schools. I want all schools to be adequately funded to present opportunities for children from all backgrounds. I say that as someone who was proudly educated in state schools and who cares about the life chances of everyone.

I have secured this specific debate to highlight how Labour’s ideologically driven plan to remove VAT and business rate exemptions for independent schools is an inherently flawed policy. If Labour will not abandon the education tax I will also suggest some improvements that the Government could make to lessen the impact of the policy on pupils, parents and school staff in Bromsgrove and across the country.

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (in the Chair)]

Order. We seem to have a problem with the sound—it seems to be everybody’s microphones. I encourage the hon. Gentleman to plough on while we see whether we can change a few plugs and get it rolling again. In case he was put off by the tinny quality of the sound, we are trying to get it rectified. Please plough on.

[Bradley Thomas]

Thank you, Dame Caroline. Education is an investment in our future. It is in everyone’s best interests that children are well educated so that they can make an engaged and positive contribution to our society. We do not charge VAT on many types of private healthcare, as that is beneficial when people use their own money to pay for a service that the state would otherwise provide. We do not charge VAT on university or nursery fees, so why should schooling be any different?

There are approximately 2,500 independent schools in the UK educating more than half a million children. They are often small schools: more than 40% of independent schools have fewer than 100 pupils according to Department for Education data. The reality is that the policy will not fulfil its aims and will displace children mid-education. State education must be funded by the state, supported by taxpayers. The VAT exemption encourages greater use of independent education, reducing the number of state school pupils, meaning more money available per pupil in the state sector.

The Times recently stated that 71% of parents felt that rising school fees would influence their future decision about independent schooling. Additionally, 26% of parents said they would have to withdraw their children from independent schools if VAT is introduced.

An Adam Smith Institute report provides a detailed examination of the potential economic impacts. If 10% to 15% of students transfer, the net revenue could be negligible. Alarmingly, in a scenario where 25% of students switch from the independent sector to state schools, the tax could cost the Government £1.6 billion.

Currently, independent schools’ significant economic benefits include supporting 328,000 jobs, saving £4.4 billion from the education budget, and supporting £5.1 billion in additional tax revenue. They do this while saving the state £4.5 billion by removing the requirement to fund the education of 7% of children as the result of parents exercising this choice. Furthermore, independent and state boarding schools are a unique subset of the schools system, with the additional feature of attracting overseas students to the UK. Some 62,700 pupils are international students in independent schools, making up 11% of the population. This is a key export for the country, adding £2.1 billion to our economy annually.

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (in the Chair)]

Order. A lot of people want to take part in this debate, so I remind everybody that they need to bob if they wish to be called. Given the nature of the debate, I recommend that Members declare any interests if they have them. I am going to kick us off with a three-minute limit on contributions because 19 people are down to speak.

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (in the Chair)]

I am desperately trying to squeeze everybody in, but, as we can see, a lot of people want to speak, so I will now take the time limit down to two minutes.

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (in the Chair)]

This is a reminder that there is a two-minute time limit and, in order to get through the remaining speakers, I am now not going to add an additional minute for each intervention.

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[Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)]

I thank the hon. Member for Bromsgrove (Bradley Thomas) for securing this debate. I want to bring up a specific Northern Ireland and constituency-based concern. When the addition of VAT to special schools was first proposed, I was contacted by the administrator of Newtownabbey Independent Christian school. I want to quote what he informed me:

“We receive no revenue or capital funding from the Department of Education to run our school therefore our parents have no choice but to pay fees when, out of religious conviction, they chose to send their children to our school. We are not an elite school, nor do we practise academic selection in any form. We believe this policy lacks fairness. Some of our school parents are on low incomes, demonstrated by pupils being entitled to free school meals. An added cost of 20% will deprive them of their religious based choice to send them to a Christian School.”

That is important not only in a Northern Ireland context, but in the context of this Government’s intention to add VAT to independent school fees, because under section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, public authorities must

“have due regard to the need to promote equality of opportunity”.

Adding this VAT fee to a religious-based school deprives the protected characteristic of religious belief. The administrator also believes that the addition of VAT may well be an infringement of parents’ religious freedom and liberty. Article 2, protocol 1 of the European convention on human rights states:

“No person shall be denied the right to education. In the exercise of any functions which it assumes in relation to education and to teaching, the State shall respect the right of parents to ensure such education and teaching is in conformity with their own religious and philosophical convictions.”

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (in the Chair)]

Order. We have to move on to the next speaker.

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[Mr Paul Kohler (Wimbledon) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Dame Caroline.

As the MP for Wimbledon, I am proud to represent a constituency with such a rich and diverse education offering, including fantastic primary and secondary schools in both the independent and state sectors. I am deeply concerned about the impact that the removal of the VAT exemption will have on many of these schools. Private school enrolments have already dropped in expectation of the tax hike, and there is growing concern that the numbers leaving the private sector and entering the state system will be much higher than the Government estimate.

As the right hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) made clear when she said it did not matter if imposing VAT resulted in state school class sizes increasing, this decision is ideological, not practical—levelling down, not up, with red meat to show that the red flag is still flying, or at least fluttering. It will be rushed through in just three months’ time, in the middle of the academic year, giving institutions with no tax expertise little time to register for VAT, let alone assess and adapt.

Labour can only do this because the UK left the EU. Who said there were no Brexit dividends? Not for the first time, my party is in harmony with Brussels, and believes that education should not be taxed. We are a party that believes in giving individuals agency and supporting them in making choices about their and their families’ lives.

For many, such decisions are made because they know their child would not receive the support they need within the state sector. Independent schools in my constituency, such as the Hall school, Willington and the Study, to name but three, do a huge amount to support children with special educational needs. I have spoken to many parents who have made tough financial sacrifices in order to send their children to these schools. They speak of the barriers to their children receiving the support they need, including long waiting lists to receive an EHCP. According to the Independent Schools Council, 90,000 children are receiving SEND support without an EHCP.

In short, this Government should be aiming to improve all schools, regardless of their status, and they should be pursuing policies based on evidence, not dogma.

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (in the Chair)]

I thank all Members for their forbearance and efficiency this morning. We have managed to get through everybody. I also thank the Front-Bench spokespeople for forgoing a little bit of their summing up time. I call Sarah Olney for the Liberal Democrats.

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[Ben Coleman]

Will he apologise?

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (in the Chair)]

Order.

[Nigel Huddleston]

As for provision, as my right hon. Friend will articulate this afternoon, more than 200,000 EHCPs were issued with SEND provision. We provided more support than the Labour Government ever did.

If, as many predict, there is displacement of children with SEND and EHCPs into the state sector, is there capacity? Is there adequate additional financial support for local authorities to deal with the predicted surge in demand? If the answer is no, or I do not know, to any of those questions, the Government must delay this policy.

Before I conclude, I ask the Minister to have the decency to recognise the apparent hypocrisy of so many Members on the Government Benches, including himself, who attended independent schools or send their children to one, yet are now determined to increase the costs on others, depriving many families of the choice that they benefited from.

I also ask him to apologise on behalf of the Secretary of State for Education for her appalling divisive tweet over the weekend, which betrays her lack of awareness of the realities of independent schools across the country. Headteachers, teachers and parents in both the state and independent sectors, unions, tax experts and think tanks are all appealing to the Government to think twice about this policy. I appeal to the Minister to listen and act accordingly.

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[James Murray]

I have only a few moments left to address a number of points, so I will make some progress. Several hon. Members in their contributions today also raised their concern about the impact of the policy on pupils in private schools with special educational needs. We have carefully considered that element of the policy. Our proposed approach makes sure that pupils will not be impacted where they have acute additional needs and an education, health and care plan—in England, or its equivalent in other nations—specifies that those can be met only in a private school. In such cases, where a pupil’s needs can be met only in a private school, local authorities will fund their places and will be able to reclaim VAT. Similarly, on business rates, the Government are developing an approach to address the potential impact of the changes in cases where private school provision has been specified for pupils through an EHCP. More widely, as a Government, we are committed to transforming the system for supporting children and young people with SEND in all schools. We need to deliver better outcomes in a financially sustainable way.

I close by again thanking all hon. Members for taking part in this debate. In our consultation about the technical detail of this policy, we have been engaging widely and in depth, and of course the views of MPs are an important part of that. As I said earlier, it has been a tough but necessary decision to end tax breaks for private schools. We believe it is the right decision and one we need to implement as soon as possible to help raise the funding we need to deliver our priorities for state education in our country. We are determined to improve the education that is available to all, because that is how we will ensure that the aspiration of every parent to get the best possible education for their children can be fulfilled.

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (in the Chair)]

Bradley Thomas has one minute to wind up.

Winter Fuel Payment

Caroline Dinenage Excerpts

Tuesday 10th September 2024 Commons Chamber

[James Murray]

I have taken several interventions, so I will make some progress.

The point of this debate is to focus on why we have to take difficult economic decisions, even if they risk us being unpopular. We know that the universal application of winter fuel payments was already recognised as unfair. In the face of our dire economic inheritance, it is simply unsustainable.

We should be clear that, when the winter fuel payment was introduced in 1997, a higher percentage of pensioners than people of working age were in poverty. That is no longer the case. Put simply, there are now pensioners receiving winter fuel payments who do not need them and that is a reality we cannot afford.

Let me put it in financial terms. Over a quarter of pensioners have wealth of more than £1 million, half have wealth of over £500,000 and a fifth of pensioner households have gross incomes equivalent to £41,600 a year. That is why it is right to means-test winter fuel payment.

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

Pensioners in my constituency will be saddened by the way the Minister is caricaturing pensioners as wealthy and not in need of this winter fuel support. Age UK has said that, in the Gosport constituency alone, 15,000 pensioners stand to lose their winter fuel payment. These are not wealthy people; they are people who, in many cases, are just outside the pension credit limit and are hanging on by their fingertips. Does he agree that caricaturing them as wealthy and not in need is unbelievably insulting?

[James Murray]

I think the hon. Lady unintentionally misunderstood my point. I will put the question back to her. Does she feel that pensioners who have wealth of over £1 million or who earn more than £41,600 a year should get the winter fuel payment in the context of the financial circumstances? The argument we are making is that, given the dire economic situation we face and given our dire inheritance, we should means-test the winter fuel payment.

Oral Answers to Questions

Caroline Dinenage Excerpts

Tuesday 7th May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Laura Trott]

It is important to note that inflation has more than halved since the Prime Minister took office, and is now at 3.2%. That will have a material impact on the cost of living pressures on households. In addition, support this year includes cutting national insurance rates across the UK and raising the local housing allowance. Benefits are up by 6.7%, the national living wage is up by 9.8%, and pensions are up by 8.5%. We are on the side of the British people.

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

As you know, Mr Speaker, it is not solely households who face increased cost pressures: businesses across our communities do as well, particularly small music venues, which are shutting at the rate of two a week. Ahead of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee’s inquiry into that issue, what thought has the Minister given to a VAT cut for grassroots music venues across our constituencies?

[Laura Trott]

I know my hon. Friend cares deeply about this matter. I know she has a report coming out in a few weeks, and I look forward to reading it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Caroline Dinenage Excerpts

Tuesday 4th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr George Osborne]

The Prime Minister achieved a good deal for the United Kingdom, and got away from the solid and fixed renewables target that the Labour Government signed up to. If the hon. Gentleman wants Britain to leave the European Union, that will be achieved with a Conservative Government offering a referendum, and him having a vote and seeing what the outcome is. [Interruption.] Under the Conservative Government, the British people will get a referendum. We will make the argument for staying in a reformed Europe, and the hon. Gentleman can make the case he wants to make. That will not happen under a Labour Government.

[Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

May I urge the Chancellor to support the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills in calls for banks not to shut the last branch in a town? HSBC is about to shut its last branch in Lee-on-Solent, leaving businesses with no banking support at all.

[The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea Leadsom)]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. Many people are concerned about bank closures. I recently had a round table with a number of banks and challenger banks to discuss the issue, not least the change towards mobile and telephone banking. We are certainly looking closely at the matter.

Oral Answers to Questions

Caroline Dinenage Excerpts

Thursday 3rd July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Grant]

I will consider all good ideas and sensible suggestions to promote tourism in this country, and I am happy to have a chat with the hon. Gentleman. As he knows, VisitBritain and VisitEngland do a good job in promoting the regions and the nations.

[Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

Will the Minister join me in welcoming two pieces of excellent nautical news for Portsmouth harbour? Not only will it play host to Sir Ben Ainslie’s new America’s cup sailing team hub, but today it welcomes Oceans of Hope—the first yacht to complete a global circumnavigation with a working crew with multiple sclerosis, including my Gosport constituent Phil Gowers.

[Mrs Grant]

Of course I congratulate them, and I think the Oceans of Hope project is fantastic. The crew are a real inspiration and deserve our warmest congratulations.

Debt Advice (FCA Levy)

Caroline Dinenage Excerpts

Tuesday 21st January 2014 Westminster Hall

[Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your stewardship, Mr Hollobone. I would like to add to the praise heaped on to my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) for securing this important debate and also for the sterling work that he has carried out with Members from all parties on championing such an important issue.

The hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) pointed out and properly articulated the fact that, a few years ago, most of us had not even heard of payday loans. They have grown like a cancer in the past few years and led many thousands of our constituents into a spiral of debt and despair. Addressing this growing, innovating and evolving industry is a matter of urgency. The FCA must take a firm grip on the issue to bring unscrupulous lenders under control.

Of course, in and of themselves, payday loans are not harmful; it is their propensity to turn into defaults and rollovers, as well as the insufficient quality of the advice, that is leading to so much misery. Unscrupulous traders and the devastating impact of continuous payment authorities are concerns for all our constituents who have taken out payday loans. That is why we must do all we can to bring clarity to the dangerous terms and conditions that leave borrowers caught unawares, with no means to pay for their food, utility bills and other household costs.

With a prophesy worthy of Mystic Meg, my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) pointed out that I might allude to some adult literacy and numeracy issues in my speech. He is quite correct. Recent research conducted by the OECD shows that there are 8.5 million people in England and Northern Ireland with the numeracy ability of a 10-year-old child. Payday lenders can seize the opportunity to take advantage of such individuals, who struggle to keep on top of their weekly shopping bills, let alone the complex percentages and interest rates involved in taking out a loan.

In order to strangle the problem at the roots, we need to address the problem of weak numeracy skills and promote the importance of financial education. That is why my hon. Friend has done such sterling work in this field. We cannot leave behind a generation of adults who are unable to comprehend the staggering interest rates that we see. We must improve how we signpost adults through debt advice to the numeracy training that they so desperately need. Independent debt advisers specialise in providing such a service, and their role in mitigating against the devastating impacts of payday loans is crucial. Without such targeted help and support, many of those who fall victim to payday lenders will be unable to break the cycle of financial trauma.

Over the past four years, Citizens Advice estimates that it has seen a tenfold growth in the demand for debt advice, as many colleagues have already said. That significant rise has undoubtedly been stimulated by an increasing dependence on payday loans, which take advantage of some of the most vulnerable people in our society. One aspect of payday loans about which I am particularly concerned is refinancing. The recent review by the Office of Fair Trading revealed that individuals seeking debt advice had, on average, refinanced their loans at least four times and were repaying six separate payday loans. Such shocking figures show the extent of the difficulty that borrowers can get into before seeking help, as the hon. Member for Makerfield said.

What we see is not responsible trading. The absence of ready access to helpful information prevents people from gaining the necessary autonomy that they need to put a stop to successive borrowing. Although the FCA’s proposal to force payday lenders to signpost borrowers to debt advice will promote greater responsibility and hopefully discourage the selling of unaffordable loans, it will also place even greater pressure on organisations that have limited resources. Therefore, like many colleagues, I strongly advocate the new powers that the FCA will have to levy all consumer credit firms to help to fund MAS. We must ensure, however, that the level of payment is commensurate with the problem.

Consumer choice is a paramount factor in the issue of payday loans. Individuals must be well informed and aware of the risks before and during their engagement with payday lenders. That is why debt advisers are so important and must be provided with the financial resources needed to continue their good work. It is also important to emphasise that we are not seeking to eliminate the access to credit streams that provide a safety net to many of the lowest paid. However, such borrowing opportunities must be subject to rigorous regulation and injected with the responsibility needed to bring about greater consumer advice and confidence.

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[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

I have listened intently to the debate; Members may wish to intervene during the course of my remarks. I congratulate the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) on securing this debate and the Backbench Business Committee on seeing the wisdom of holding it. I am sure that it is due to the Committee’s good judgment rather than simple coincidence that we had a Backbench Business debate on payday loan companies last night in the main Chamber, followed by this one. The two debates are linked, and it adds value to be able to follow last night’s discussion with this one. There were 17 Back-Bench speakers last night, not counting interventions, and Members had the opportunity to lay out a range of reasons why tougher action is needed on payday loan companies generally and ways that regulation could be improved.

When I first saw that this debate was going to be about the levy, I feared slightly that people would think the issue was only a technical one and not quite as important, but it has been useful to hear a number of speeches linking the principles of what needs to be done on payday lending and regulation and how it can be put into practice for the greater good. It has been heartening to hear that from Members from all parties; we have not got bogged down in the technicalities of the levy, as we might easily have done.

Anyone who has gone through the Library briefing—I am sure that everyone here has, although perhaps people outside this room have not—knows that it explains in great detail how the levy is calculated and the various different sections and categories. The Minister may want to say something about that and whether, in the longer term, he has any plans to review the levy further. I know that the Government always say that they keep everything under review—he and I often exchange comments on that particular approach—but it might be useful to hear from him whether he has any further work to do on that.

We have heard that although better regulation is of course important, it is also important that we continue to ensure that proper debt advice is available. In his opening speech, the hon. Gentleman made the key point that there is a danger that the Financial Conduct Authority might simply be seen as a collection agency. Several speakers made the point that the Money Advice Service has a flatline budget—I hesitate to use that word—but the Government are not seeking to increase the budget, at a time when we have all heard about and know the pressures on various organisations that provide support. That is a potential problem, and I hope that the Minister will address it in his reply.

We want to ensure that the cost of regulation does not take up all the available resources. That is why I highlight the point about the complexity of the levy as it currently operates. We do not want the FCA and MAS to spend all their time trying to administer it, so that resources do not get to the front line. Another key point made is that we do not want the amount of advice available to be reduced.

On the nature of advice, we want the opportunity to widen the scope for funding. I will return to that, but I want to mention a couple of the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield), who has a long track record of campaigning on payday loan issues, as do the majority—in fact, all—of the hon. Members here. He made the point early on that we have a unique opportunity to tackle the problem without additional cost to the public purse, a point reiterated by my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey). I am sure that it will always be attractive to the Treasury, when we have a problem, if we can identify a potential solution that will not cause additional cost to the public purse, especially at a time when we are trying, as I am sure the Minister will mention, to reduce the deficit and look to the future. That ought to be considered.

I would certainly be concerned by any suggestion that the changes to get more companies paying the levy by bringing them into the scope of the regulation would mean a levelling down in terms of what they pay. The point about the payday loan companies, which has been emphasised in a number of debates, is their potential detriment to individuals, because of the way they operate. They should certainly not get off the hook, particularly as we are hearing that more problems are being identified.

It was also correct to suggest that the FCA should not simply exist to signpost people at particular stages, for example rollover, however important that role is. Nevertheless, we need advice to be available and easily accessible.

I am also concerned about an issue that was raised in the briefings that I have been provided with, for example by Citizens Advice and the StepChange charity. We must not have a perverse incentive whereby the system would mean, for example, that on the issue of write-offs companies were somehow moving to operate in a way that would be detrimental to the individual debtor, so that those companies could somehow avoid paying what would be seen as their fair share of the levy. Lenders should pick up the bill for some of that levy. Again, I hope the Minister will say something about that issue.

My hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) talked about the “behind the clock” syndrome and I think it was the hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) who referred to carrier bags. I do not want to make this debate sound like a competition, but I spent many years as a front-line social worker providing a lot of welfare benefits advice, among other things. I recall occasions when people had large black bin bags full of information. What never ceased to amaze me at the time was the fact that people had kept all of the paperwork, including every letter that had come in. Quite often, those papers were stacked in fairly neat order, with elastic bands around them, but they were not then dealt with; they had simply been put away because the problem they related to was too difficult to deal with.

One thing that I learned from those experiences was that we do people no favours whatsoever if we do not have a face-to-face discussion and work with them to get them out of the mess they are in. Simply telling someone to go and read a website, or to get information online or even a pamphlet, is not enough; it ought to be an introduction to them, so that they can sit down face to face, assess the scale of the problem and work it out. Again, the importance of that process was raised by a number of hon. Members.

[Caroline Dinenage]

I do not want to bang on about the same subject, but does the hon. Lady agree that sometimes adults lack the necessary literacy and numeracy skills to address the issue of debt and so, even if they wanted to address it, debt is a massive puzzle for them? We also need to look at the ways that we signpost people to address that skills issue.

[Cathy Jamieson]

The hon. Lady makes an important point, and the issue of financial education was raised in the debate in the main Chamber last night. Financial education is important because there are people who have literacy and numeracy problems, which are often picked up at the point that they come for advice. They may not have felt able to tell people before then, but the problem becomes very apparent in a face-to-face meeting with advice workers, who can perhaps assist them to get help and support.

More broadly, financial education in schools is, of course, valuable; I have said that many times. It is the right thing to provide, but if it is only seen as something to be provided in schools that is not enough. There are key points in people’s lives when there is the opportunity to introduce them to different forms of financial education.

Payday Loan Companies

Caroline Dinenage Excerpts

Monday 20th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

The fact that this is the second time in two years that the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee has reported on this issue reflects the enormous public interest in the matter and the concern about the impact of the sector on our communities as well as on individual borrowers. To date, the regulatory authorities have being running behind the curve, and it is important that the Financial Conduct Authority should start ahead of the game. The regulators initially gave little priority to protecting the poorest borrowers on the basis that the total lending represented just a small percentage of the total in the financial services sector. They failed to take proper account of the problems that had already beset other international jurisdictions, to which the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) has referred. The Government’s response to our first report was simply to try to shift the problem further down the time line, with an instruction for further reviews and reports. The transition to regulation by the FCA was used as the main reason for not taking immediate action.

In my own city of Glasgow, the council reported last year that its citizens borrowed £57 million annually through high-cost credit, including payday lending. Given that 49% of our residents are within the bottom 20% of the income quartile, it is not surprising that the council estimates that a staggering 100,000 residents are using non-standard credit and that a high percentage of that number are finding it difficult, if not impossible, to repay their loans.

In 2013, the regulatory authorities and the Government realised that a policy of laissez-faire was not going to work. The findings of the Office of Fair Trading’s damning report showed the scale of contraventions in the sector, and the growing amount of strong evidence from agencies like Citizens Advice, StepChange and Which? could not be ignored. The sector itself had rapidly increased from £900 million in 2008-09 to £2.2 billion in 2011-12. Wonga had become a household name and, even more worryingly, the level of personal debt in this country was beginning to rise again, potentially threatening any increase in growth.

The sector now has a shop in every high street, it dominates the advertising schedules and it has been allowed the freedom of a wild west market to achieve rapid growth and massive profits. Many of its victims now populate the ever-growing food banks and our debt courts. It should be abundantly clear that this issue cannot exist in a vacuum, devoid of political direction. The statutory independence of a regulatory authority to act should not be a barrier to setting a framework and priorities that it needs to address; nor should it be a way to sidestep the will of Parliament, which on numerous occasions over the past three years has expressed exactly the concerns that are being raised today. The level of cross-party agreement and civic support for tougher regulation is overwhelming.

Wider issues have intensified the interest in this sector. The hon. Member for Dover referred to the lack of provision in the mainstream credit sector, but other issues include the squeeze on real incomes, and the above-inflation rises in essential costs—energy, transport, housing and food. The demand for unsecured lending continues to expand, but we also have a rapidly changing financial services sector that often lacks adequate transparency not just in short-term lending, which adds to consumers’ confusion in making the best decisions to suit their needs.

I believe the major players in this sector well know that the current era of weak regulation ripe for exploitation will one day come to an end, but if they can extend that period or find a new avenue for profit, they will happily go for the bottom line. They have achieved their aim of being a ubiquitous presence. The Chair of the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey), has referred to the evidence from the money expert Martin Lewis, who brutally exposed the scale of this insidious influence. He said:

“14% of parents of under-10s, when they have said, ‘No, you cannot have your toy,’…have had a payday loan company quoted to borrow the money from.”

We have also heard about scale and the Ofcom research on advertising, which found that there were 17,000 payday lending adverts in 2008 whereas there were 397,000 in 2012. That equates to each adult in the UK seeing an average of 152 payday loan adverts a year. Given that level of market penetration, some of the biggest firms barely need ever to advertise again. That is why our Committee believes that our modest recommendation on curbing TV advertising is important, but we should not believe that it will cure the cultural influence.

[Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

Does the hon. Lady agree that it is not just the volume of TV advertising, but the nature of it that is concerning? These companies are often advertised via cuddly, humorous characters, such as knitted grannies and granddads. That is worrying it lulls people into a false sense of security about the nature of the product in which they are investing.

[Ann McKechin]

I absolutely concur with what the hon. Lady, a Committee colleague, says. The advertising is very clear and insidious, and it is targeted at younger people and children in particular. There is no debate about that; it has happened and continues to occur.

I want to deal now with the real-time recording of credit information. If credit information is to work, it needs to be both accurate and comprehensive; otherwise, there is little point to it. Unsurprisingly, the industry was quick to downplay the significance of this potential regulatory step, and again it is regrettable that the authorities have not been faster to respond, preferring instead an approach of wait and see. I commend the sustained pressure from agencies like as Citizens Advice and StepChange, but the cloud lifted when BBC’s “Newsnight” programme and others reported at the end of last year on the potential impact on mortgage lending. If there is no real-time recording in the payday lending sector, the existing credit recording systems become increasingly unreliable and inaccurate, particularly in respect of younger borrowers, who form the bulk of this sector’s customers. Lenders in the mainstream sector have now decided, in their world of lower risk, to dismiss payday borrowers entirely from their eligibility test—and hey presto, this month we have the announcement from Wonga and some others that a real-time recording system is going to be put in place later this year. Call me a cynic, but I suspect that the potential hit on their client base, who were increasingly worried about future access to mainstream lending and to mortgages, acted as a greater incentive than the dialogue with the FCA.

--- Later in debate ---

[Justin Tomlinson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I will be moving on to the failings of mainstream banking shortly.

It is also a recognition of how consumer habits have changed. With 24/7 internet shopping becoming increasingly popular, if consumers see something online at 3 o’clock in the morning and want to purchase it, they would like to be able to access the funding right away. Society is geared up for consumers wanting something, and wanting it right away. That market adapted to consumer demand and stepped in where the mainstream banks were not looking. Clearly, value for money for the consumer is not paramount, and that needs to be addressed.

I welcome the positive steps that the Government have started to take, working with the FCA. I will comment briefly on the various things that I would like to see. The first one, and it is often the simplest, but the one on which I am not sure we are there yet, is that the total cost of a loan should always be displayed in cash terms. I suspect that not even Treasury Ministers can calculate an APR rate, which involves a hugely complex formula. Therefore, a customer should be able to say, “I want to borrow £100, and it will cost me £20.” Even those without a particularly good grasp of mathematics would then be able to make a reasonably informed decision on whether that represents good value for money.

To encourage competition, we need a standardised unit for comparison. In the energy market and in mobile phone contracts there are standard units, so consumers can visit price comparison websites to find the best product. That is very difficult with payday loan companies.

[Caroline Dinenage]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. I know that he has worked hard to bring financial education into the school curriculum. Does he agree that to be able to fathom even the cost of these loans in numerical terms people need a certain level of literacy, so we really need to tackle the poor levels of adult numeracy and literacy, which are a big barrier in this case?

[Justin Tomlinson]

I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution. If she can just be patient, I will be heaping huge amounts of praise on her shortly.

The second thing I would like to see is real-time credit checking. The industry wants that because, despite a lot of the rumours, it relies on people being able to pay back the money they have borrowed. It would help to avoid somebody going into one shop and 15 minutes later going into another one. The credit checking agencies follow the traditional monthly banking system, so in theory somebody can wreak damage on themselves in the course of a month before the banks catch up. The industry says that it wants real-time credit checking; the credit agencies say they would like to offer it but that it is very complicated. One of the smaller operators, Call Credit, has got 10 operators signed up, but it will not be 100% participation. The Government will therefore have to empower the FCA to demand this. We are getting close to it, and it exists in some forms in America. It will make a huge difference because it will protect people from taking out multi-loans and allow the FCA to enforce affordability checks so that lenders who are lending to people who cannot afford it can be dealt with.

I would like to go one step further in ensuring that people can rebuild their credit rating. When someone has been turned down for a loan by one of the mainstream banks, the payday lending industry is often the only one that is prepared to take the risk with them. If they pay back the loan properly and on time, they should then have their credit rating repaired, allowing them to re-enter mainstream traditional lending.

There is a perception that the products, prices and requirements placed on people pushed them away from mainstream banking into a more modern, innovative industry that was responding to the situation. Mainstream banking has to take a long look at itself to see how it can adapt to a changing world. I fully support the fantastic work that my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) has done on credit unions as an alternative for people. It might not be the total solution but it is certainly a very important part of the process.

On debt advice, which will be debated tomorrow in Westminster Hall, I fully support the levy, and I think the industry does as well. The Nationwide building society carried out a survey showing that 91% of people who get into financial difficulty say, “If only I had known better.” We see this in our casework. People who have got into difficulty come to see us with their carrier bags of unopened envelopes, and they need face-to-face, patient help. At the point where they go to get one of these loans, it would be helpful to have well-advertised information about how they can access free, independent debt advice, with a freephone telephone number.

Under the licence to operate, it costs lenders about £2,000 to get set up. A particularly bad, unscrupulous lender can wreak all sorts of damage before the FCA, or formerly the OFT, will have had time to do something about them. Unfortunately, some of these operators on the very fringes of the market will take advantage of the potential two-year window to do whatever they want before being taken down, and will then spend more money to get themselves back up the Google search engine listings.

The FCA needs to be extremely proactive in terms of mystery shoppers. Often the consumers who get themselves into the most difficulty are vulnerable people who are least equipped to raise it with us so that we can chase things up. This particularly applies to doorstep lending, as I have said in previous debates. With that lending model, the lender befriends someone, gains their trust, goes into their house every month, and could encourage them to borrow more. They might say over a cup of tea, “Have you sorted out your Christmas presents? If not, don’t worry, because we could provide the money for that, and why don’t you get your carpet sorted out if you’ve got your family coming round—that’s only another £3 a week.” We need to have mystery shoppers to check that the operators are sticking to the rules.

I championed the desire to get financial education on to the statute book, and I am delighted that the Government are implementing that in 2014. As my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire said, things will now change. This is about equipping the next generation of consumers with the skills to be able to make informed decisions—not moralising on those decisions but enabling them to make the mathematical calculations.

National Minimum Wage

Caroline Dinenage Excerpts

Wednesday 15th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Rachel Reeves]

It is not just the Tories who should apologise; the Government’s junior coalition partners should apologise, too, because they were worried back then as well about the impact of the minimum wage. In 1994, their then leader attacked Labour’s

“umbilical attachment to a national, high-rate minimum wage”

and said that

“a national minimum would…force many on to the dole”.

The Liberal Democrats went into the 1997 general election with a manifesto commitment not to a national minimum wage but to a

“regionally variable, minimum hourly rate.”

Let us be grateful that they did not get their way. Despite the then Opposition fighting the legislation tooth and nail, line by line, clause by clause, using every trick in the book to slow, frustrate and obstruct its progress, the national minimum wage became law.

[Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her fascinating history lesson. I wonder whether her bit of paper also says that 500,000 people lost their jobs under the previous Labour Government and whether she agrees that the announcement made this morning demonstrates the Government’s absolute commitment to ensuring that no employer will be able to exploit their employees by paying unfair wages.

[Rachel Reeves]

Two million jobs were created under the last Labour Government and employment reached a record high, so I am not sure where the hon. Lady gets her statistics from.

I have quoted the former leader of the Liberal Democrats but, back then, where was the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable)? He was nowhere to be seen in the debates. He was nowhere to be seen on the voting record. On Second Reading and Third Reading, he failed to vote. Apparently, he abstained because he had reservations about a minimum wage. Perhaps he will stand up today to profess his concern for the plight of the low-paid. I am happy to take an intervention from the right hon. Gentleman if he wants to make one.